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Posted to dev@cocoon.apache.org by Reinhard Pötz <re...@apache.org> on 2009/03/30 20:35:13 UTC
[c3] Cocoon 3 Profiling student project
The week before the ApacheCon we've kicked off our second student
project in cooperation with the Vienna University of Technology. The six
students will work on profiling support for Cocoon (see
http://cocoon.apache.org/3.0/student-project-ideas/cocoon3-profiling.html
and
http://cocoon.apache.org/3.0/student-project-ideas/cocoon3-profiling-ui.html)
.
Don't expect to much in the next couple of weeks because we will
concentrate on the problem analysis first but as done in the last
semester, as soon as we start to work on the actual problem, the
students will introduce themselves and release their work regularly.
If you have any thoughts that you want to share at this stage, just let
us know!
--
Reinhard Pötz Managing Director, {Indoqa} GmbH
http://www.indoqa.com/en/people/reinhard.poetz/
Member of the Apache Software Foundation
Apache Cocoon Committer, PMC member reinhard@apache.org
________________________________________________________________________
Re: [c3] Cocoon 3 Profiling student project
Posted by Steven Dolg <st...@indoqa.com>.
Bertrand Delacretaz schrieb:
> On Wed, Apr 1, 2009 at 3:57 PM, Sylvain Wallez <sy...@apache.org> wrote:
>
>
>> Andrew Savory wrote:
>>
>>> ...If I might make a suggestion: understanding the problem and possible
>>> solutions is where the cocoon developer community can really help as well.
>>> It's how many of us got started here, with initial discussions that ended up
>>> with us having the confidence to contribute code. It also stimulates the
>>> community, providing diversity and discussion that might trigger other work
>>> as well.
>>>
>> +1. Most of us started by asking dumb questions here.
>>
>
> +1. I did ;-)
>
> I'm presenting today at a conference on how we work inside the ASF,
> and one of my recent additions to this talk is that people have to
> overcome their "fear of making mistakes in public" to be efficient in
> our communities.
>
Couldn't agree more.
The feedback we got from the last student group also reflects that point.
Obviously there is some reluctance to start working on open source
projects, because all the devs are "so experienced" and actually asking
some (possibly) dumb questions and proposing ideas somehow scares
people. (At least that's like I felt)
After a couple of weeks however that stops and the students felt much
more confident and willing to contribute (to Cocoon and open source in
general).
> The best learning is by doing, so having those students make mistakes
> here sooner than later (they don't *have* to make mistakes, you get
> the idea ;-) would probably be good for them. Also in terms of general
> community health.
>
That is exactly the way we want this to be.
However those 2-4 weeks of "research" are entirely intended to get them
acquainted with Cocoon the way it is now and learn the technologies we
think we will need.
We could do this on this mailing-list, but I don't think it is really
useful to ask questions about e.g. Spring here ;-)
Of course this phase will create some ideas about how to actually
implement the feature, but that is actually part of the plan. (We cannot
really keep them from thinking, can we? ;-) )
But we will share this ideas as soon as they appear to make sense and
before we will start implementing them.
I think we did it that way with StAX, but maybe there is something to be
changed or amended.
Input is welcome and highly appreciated (as always) - after all we (ie
Reinhard & me) are also learning at lot by doing this.
Steven
> And thanks Reinhard for explaining what you're doing. It might be cool
> to have a web page somewhere to explain the "experiment", but that's
> your call of course.
>
> -Bertrand
>
>
Re: [c3] Cocoon 3 Profiling student project
Posted by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>.
On Wed, Apr 1, 2009 at 3:57 PM, Sylvain Wallez <sy...@apache.org> wrote:
> Andrew Savory wrote:
>> ...If I might make a suggestion: understanding the problem and possible
>> solutions is where the cocoon developer community can really help as well.
>> It's how many of us got started here, with initial discussions that ended up
>> with us having the confidence to contribute code. It also stimulates the
>> community, providing diversity and discussion that might trigger other work
>> as well.
>
> +1. Most of us started by asking dumb questions here.
+1. I did ;-)
I'm presenting today at a conference on how we work inside the ASF,
and one of my recent additions to this talk is that people have to
overcome their "fear of making mistakes in public" to be efficient in
our communities.
The best learning is by doing, so having those students make mistakes
here sooner than later (they don't *have* to make mistakes, you get
the idea ;-) would probably be good for them. Also in terms of general
community health.
And thanks Reinhard for explaining what you're doing. It might be cool
to have a web page somewhere to explain the "experiment", but that's
your call of course.
-Bertrand
Re: [c3] Cocoon 3 Profiling student project
Posted by Sylvain Wallez <sy...@apache.org>.
Andrew Savory wrote:
> Hi Reinhard,
>
> It's great that you're able to get students engaged, and to make it
> part of their curriculum.
>
> 2009/3/31 Reinhard Pötz <reinhard@apache.org <ma...@apache.org>>
>
> yes, I guess it will take the students 2 - 4 weeks to really
> understand
> the problem and possible solutions. Then they will keep this list
> posted
> with their insights, proposals and patches and everybody will get a
> chance to comment. The plan is to work in 2 week iterations until the
> end of June. This will mean about 4 - 6 public iterations.
>
>
> If I might make a suggestion: understanding the problem and possible
> solutions is where the cocoon developer community can really help as
> well. It's how many of us got started here, with initial discussions
> that ended up with us having the confidence to contribute code. It
> also stimulates the community, providing diversity and discussion that
> might trigger other work as well.
+1. Most of us started by asking dumb questions here.
Sylvain
--
Sylvain Wallez - http://bluxte.net
Re: [c3] Cocoon 3 Profiling student project
Posted by Andrew Savory <as...@apache.org>.
Hi Reinhard,
It's great that you're able to get students engaged, and to make it part of
their curriculum.
2009/3/31 Reinhard Pötz <re...@apache.org>
yes, I guess it will take the students 2 - 4 weeks to really understand
> the problem and possible solutions. Then they will keep this list posted
> with their insights, proposals and patches and everybody will get a
> chance to comment. The plan is to work in 2 week iterations until the
> end of June. This will mean about 4 - 6 public iterations.
If I might make a suggestion: understanding the problem and possible
solutions is where the cocoon developer community can really help as well.
It's how many of us got started here, with initial discussions that ended up
with us having the confidence to contribute code. It also stimulates the
community, providing diversity and discussion that might trigger other work
as well.
Andrew.
--
asavory@apache.org / contact@andrewsavory.com
http://www.andrewsavory.com/
Re: [c3] Cocoon 3 Profiling student project
Posted by Reinhard Pötz <re...@apache.org>.
Bertrand Delacretaz wrote:
> Hi Reinhard,
>
> On Mon, Mar 30, 2009 at 8:35 PM, Reinhard Pötz <re...@apache.org> wrote:
>> ...The week before the ApacheCon we've kicked off our second student
>> project in cooperation with the Vienna University of Technology. The six
>> students will work on profiling support for Cocoon (see
>> http://cocoon.apache.org/3.0/student-project-ideas/cocoon3-profiling.html
>> and
>> http://cocoon.apache.org/3.0/student-project-ideas/cocoon3-profiling-ui.html)...
>
> Just curious, who is "we"?
We comprises Steven and me.
> This sounds like a cool initiative, but I'm wondering what the roles
> are, are you mentoring those students and helping them shape their
> code into JIRA-able contributions? Or will they participate in
> discussion here once their problem analysis is done?
yes, I guess it will take the students 2 - 4 weeks to really understand
the problem and possible solutions. Then they will keep this list posted
with their insights, proposals and patches and everybody will get a
chance to comment. The plan is to work in 2 week iterations until the
end of June. This will mean about 4 - 6 public iterations.
> There's nothing hidden behind my question - just curious, with my
> Cocoon PMC member hat on, about the community aspects of this. Feel
> free to point me to previous discussions if I missed something.
Basically the same setting as last time (StAX pipelines).
The idea of working together on open source projects was developed by
Alexander Schatten, an assistant professor at the Vienna University of
Technology (TU), Werner Guttmann, my business partner and Castor
committer, Lukas Lang a student at the TU and colleague at Indoqa and me
at the beginning of the last year.
Werner already mentored two "Castor groups" last year and as said above
Steven and I also had one Cocoon (StAX) group
(http://cocoon.markmail.org/message/dbb3uvczi2bpzplm). So far all
projects were successful and we got a good feedback from the students:
They can solve real world problems, are guided by experienced developers
and get familiar with open source software development. They also
learned a lot when they had to discuss their ideas with Sylvain.
The project proposals they will be working on
(http://cocoon.apache.org/3.0/student-project-ideas/cocoon3-profiling.html
and
http://cocoon.apache.org/3.0/student-project-ideas/cocoon3-profiling-ui.html)
are both available and any feedback on them and of course on the process
in general are very appreciated.
--
Reinhard Pötz Managing Director, {Indoqa} GmbH
http://www.indoqa.com/en/people/reinhard.poetz/
Member of the Apache Software Foundation
Apache Cocoon Committer, PMC member reinhard@apache.org
________________________________________________________________________
Re: [c3] Cocoon 3 Profiling student project
Posted by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>.
Hi Reinhard,
On Mon, Mar 30, 2009 at 8:35 PM, Reinhard Pötz <re...@apache.org> wrote:
> ...The week before the ApacheCon we've kicked off our second student
> project in cooperation with the Vienna University of Technology. The six
> students will work on profiling support for Cocoon (see
> http://cocoon.apache.org/3.0/student-project-ideas/cocoon3-profiling.html
> and
> http://cocoon.apache.org/3.0/student-project-ideas/cocoon3-profiling-ui.html)...
Just curious, who is "we"?
This sounds like a cool initiative, but I'm wondering what the roles
are, are you mentoring those students and helping them shape their
code into JIRA-able contributions? Or will they participate in
discussion here once their problem analysis is done?
There's nothing hidden behind my question - just curious, with my
Cocoon PMC member hat on, about the community aspects of this. Feel
free to point me to previous discussions if I missed something.
-Bertrand
Re: [c3] Cocoon 3 Profiling student project
Posted by Steven Dolg <st...@indoqa.com>.
Felix Knecht schrieb:
> H Christoph
>
>
>> Hello,
>>
>> we are two of the students who work on cocoon-profiling.
>>
>> Now that the implementing phase of the project has started we provided
>> an initial patch [1] to add cocoon-profiling and
>> cocoon-profiling-firebug to the code base. As of now the firebug
>> component has no dependencies because we are not exactly sure what maven
>> has to do in order to create a xpi file.
>>
>
> Maybe this can give you an idea how one can generate an xpi file using maven:
> http://johnjianfang.blogspot.com/2009/03/how-to-use-maven-generate-mozilla.html
>
That looks quite nice.
Thanks for the link, Felix.
Regards,
Steven
> Regards
> Felix
>
>
Re: [c3] Cocoon 3 Profiling student project
Posted by Felix Knecht <fe...@apache.org>.
H Christoph
> Hello,
>
> we are two of the students who work on cocoon-profiling.
>
> Now that the implementing phase of the project has started we provided
> an initial patch [1] to add cocoon-profiling and
> cocoon-profiling-firebug to the code base. As of now the firebug
> component has no dependencies because we are not exactly sure what maven
> has to do in order to create a xpi file.
Maybe this can give you an idea how one can generate an xpi file using maven:
http://johnjianfang.blogspot.com/2009/03/how-to-use-maven-generate-mozilla.html
Regards
Felix
Re: [c3] Cocoon 3 Profiling student project
Posted by Christoph Leiter <e0...@student.tuwien.ac.at>.
Hello,
we are two of the students who work on cocoon-profiling.
Now that the implementing phase of the project has started we provided
an initial patch [1] to add cocoon-profiling and
cocoon-profiling-firebug to the code base. As of now the firebug
component has no dependencies because we are not exactly sure what maven
has to do in order to create a xpi file.
We created a prototype of the profiling component. An aspect is used to
intercept method calls on relevant components. From here the control
flow moves to an invocation dispatcher where specific handlers for
components can be registered. A handler is responsible for creating the
profiling data for a component. We'll store the data in a flexible
hierarchical data structure but this is not implemented yet.
If you have any questions, suggestions or feature requests please let us
know.
Michael & Christoph
[1] https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/COCOON3-36
Reinhard Pötz wrote:
> The week before the ApacheCon we've kicked off our second student
> project in cooperation with the Vienna University of Technology. The six
> students will work on profiling support for Cocoon (see
> http://cocoon.apache.org/3.0/student-project-ideas/cocoon3-profiling.html
> and
> http://cocoon.apache.org/3.0/student-project-ideas/cocoon3-profiling-ui.html)
> .
>
> Don't expect to much in the next couple of weeks because we will
> concentrate on the problem analysis first but as done in the last
> semester, as soon as we start to work on the actual problem, the
> students will introduce themselves and release their work regularly.
>
> If you have any thoughts that you want to share at this stage, just let
> us know!
>