ApacheCon community panel

[Rich Bowen <rb...@rcbowen.com>]

Hello, folks,

On the schedule for ApacheCon is a community panel. We have an MC - Joe 
Brockmeier - but we don't have a topic. Some topics were suggested a few 
weeks ago, and the one that sounded the most interesting to me - 
something around the release cadence discussion surrounding Cordova.

While Cordova has voted on their releases, and the crisis has abated, 
the issue still remains - how is the Apache release process going to 
survive a C.I. world? Are changes needed? Is what we have good enough?

Do folks think that this will make a good panel discussion (obvious, I 
do), and, if so, who should participate in such a panel? I'd love to see 
someone from the board, and someone from the Cordova PMC. Suggestions as 
to who that should be?

--Rich

-- 
Rich Bowen - rbowen@rcbowen.com - @rbowen
http://apachecon.com/ - @apachecon	

Re: ApacheCon community panel

[Rich Bowen <rb...@rcbowen.com>]

Based on various conversations, it looks like what we'll have is:

MC: jzb
Panel:
     * Andrew Grieve, from the Cordova community, will present from the 
perspective of a project that has needs that might not be being fulfilled
     * Joe Schaefer will present Infra's perspective
     * Roman Shaposhnik from the BigTop project will present from 
another project that has C.I. needs
     * I would like to have someone from the board, but nobody has 
stepped forward. Possibly I'll bug someone at the event. The perspective 
from the board would be about the legal requirements of voting for 
releases, and to what degree this is flexible, if at all. If someone has 
a specific recommendation here, that would be awesome.

I think that would make a good panel size. Any more than that and nobody 
would have any time to say anything.

-- 
Rich Bowen - rbowen@rcbowen.com - @rbowen
http://apachecon.com/ - @apachecon

Re: ApacheCon community panel

[Andrew Grieve <ag...@chromium.org>]

I'd be happy to participate. This could definitely be a constructive
discussion, as I think Cordova's problems are/were actually more from
ignorance than from having special needs (project had a lot of turn-over /
growth after incubation). One topic I'm hoping to learn about from the
conference is how other projects manage their release automation would be
great.




On Tue, Mar 11, 2014 at 10:04 AM, David Nalley <da...@gnsa.us> wrote:

> Maybe Andrew Bayer instead of me. He is a core committer on Jenkins
> (which has a strong affinity for CD); and jclouds moves faster.
> CloudStack isn't really a CD type of project - at least not yet.
>
> --David
>
> On Tue, Mar 11, 2014 at 9:58 AM, Rich Bowen <rb...@rcbowen.com> wrote:
> >
> > On 03/11/2014 08:47 AM, David Nalley wrote:
> >>
> >> On Tue, Mar 11, 2014 at 8:22 AM, Benson Margulies <
> bimargulies@gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> It might be more interesting to skip Cordova altogether. The industry
> >>> is full of ferment about CD. If everyone checks their rhetoric at the
> >>> door, there could be an interesting conversation about how to mesh the
> >>> ideas of CD and the ideals of the ASF.
> >>>
> >>
> >> Agreed. I (from my comfortable arm chair, looking on) don't see
> >> Cordova as being a snowflake; but the larger topic is interesting.  I
> >> do see the software industry and a lot of open source projects waving
> >> the CD flag. I personally don't see CD and the Apache Way as mutually
> >> exclusive, though I see problems it could create if not handled well.
> >>
> >
> > No, I don't think they're a snowflake, but it might be seen as a jerky
> move
> > to exclude then from the conversation, as they're the ones that brought
> it
> > up.
> >
> > I'd suggest we ask Andrew Grieve -
> >
> http://apacheconnorthamerica2014.sched.org/event/c75e06c0f1d804b37066b67fda9f4e62
> > - to be on the panel, as he'll be giving a talk on their development
> > lifecycle, so will have some ideas prepared.
> >
> > From the Infra side, of course I'd like to ask Joe to be on the panel,
> and
> > possibly Sam as VP Infra and board member.
> >
> > And from a ... shall we say ... slower moving project, how about JimJag
> to
> > represent both the httpd project and the board perspective.
> >
> > So then who else should we invite from a project that would benefit from
> a
> > more rapid release cadence? Is that you, Dave, to represent CloudStack?
> >
> > At that point we'd be really pushing the size that a panel can tolerate
> > being and not be a shouting match.
> >
> > Thoughts?
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Rich Bowen - rbowen@rcbowen.com - @rbowen
> > http://apachecon.com/ - @apachecon
> >
>

Re: ApacheCon community panel

[Roman Shaposhnik <ro...@shaposhnik.org>]

On Tue, Mar 11, 2014 at 7:04 AM, David Nalley <da...@gnsa.us> wrote:
> Maybe Andrew Bayer instead of me. He is a core committer on Jenkins
> (which has a strong affinity for CD); and jclouds moves faster.
> CloudStack isn't really a CD type of project - at least not yet.

While any panel with Andrew on it is would be worth attending, sadly
he is not coming this year.

Thanks,
Roman.

Re: ApacheCon community panel

[David Nalley <da...@gnsa.us>]

Maybe Andrew Bayer instead of me. He is a core committer on Jenkins
(which has a strong affinity for CD); and jclouds moves faster.
CloudStack isn't really a CD type of project - at least not yet.

--David

On Tue, Mar 11, 2014 at 9:58 AM, Rich Bowen <rb...@rcbowen.com> wrote:
>
> On 03/11/2014 08:47 AM, David Nalley wrote:
>>
>> On Tue, Mar 11, 2014 at 8:22 AM, Benson Margulies <bi...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> It might be more interesting to skip Cordova altogether. The industry
>>> is full of ferment about CD. If everyone checks their rhetoric at the
>>> door, there could be an interesting conversation about how to mesh the
>>> ideas of CD and the ideals of the ASF.
>>>
>>
>> Agreed. I (from my comfortable arm chair, looking on) don't see
>> Cordova as being a snowflake; but the larger topic is interesting.  I
>> do see the software industry and a lot of open source projects waving
>> the CD flag. I personally don't see CD and the Apache Way as mutually
>> exclusive, though I see problems it could create if not handled well.
>>
>
> No, I don't think they're a snowflake, but it might be seen as a jerky move
> to exclude then from the conversation, as they're the ones that brought it
> up.
>
> I'd suggest we ask Andrew Grieve -
> http://apacheconnorthamerica2014.sched.org/event/c75e06c0f1d804b37066b67fda9f4e62
> - to be on the panel, as he'll be giving a talk on their development
> lifecycle, so will have some ideas prepared.
>
> From the Infra side, of course I'd like to ask Joe to be on the panel, and
> possibly Sam as VP Infra and board member.
>
> And from a ... shall we say ... slower moving project, how about JimJag to
> represent both the httpd project and the board perspective.
>
> So then who else should we invite from a project that would benefit from a
> more rapid release cadence? Is that you, Dave, to represent CloudStack?
>
> At that point we'd be really pushing the size that a panel can tolerate
> being and not be a shouting match.
>
> Thoughts?
>
>
>
> --
> Rich Bowen - rbowen@rcbowen.com - @rbowen
> http://apachecon.com/ - @apachecon
>

Re: ApacheCon community panel

[Rich Bowen <rb...@rcbowen.com>]

On 03/11/2014 08:47 AM, David Nalley wrote:
> On Tue, Mar 11, 2014 at 8:22 AM, Benson Margulies <bi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> It might be more interesting to skip Cordova altogether. The industry
>> is full of ferment about CD. If everyone checks their rhetoric at the
>> door, there could be an interesting conversation about how to mesh the
>> ideas of CD and the ideals of the ASF.
>>
>
> Agreed. I (from my comfortable arm chair, looking on) don't see
> Cordova as being a snowflake; but the larger topic is interesting.  I
> do see the software industry and a lot of open source projects waving
> the CD flag. I personally don't see CD and the Apache Way as mutually
> exclusive, though I see problems it could create if not handled well.
>

No, I don't think they're a snowflake, but it might be seen as a jerky 
move to exclude then from the conversation, as they're the ones that 
brought it up.

I'd suggest we ask Andrew Grieve - 
http://apacheconnorthamerica2014.sched.org/event/c75e06c0f1d804b37066b67fda9f4e62 
- to be on the panel, as he'll be giving a talk on their development 
lifecycle, so will have some ideas prepared.

 From the Infra side, of course I'd like to ask Joe to be on the panel, 
and possibly Sam as VP Infra and board member.

And from a ... shall we say ... slower moving project, how about JimJag 
to represent both the httpd project and the board perspective.

So then who else should we invite from a project that would benefit from 
a more rapid release cadence? Is that you, Dave, to represent CloudStack?

At that point we'd be really pushing the size that a panel can tolerate 
being and not be a shouting match.

Thoughts?


-- 
Rich Bowen - rbowen@rcbowen.com - @rbowen
http://apachecon.com/ - @apachecon

Re: ApacheCon community panel

[David Nalley <da...@gnsa.us>]

On Tue, Mar 11, 2014 at 8:22 AM, Benson Margulies <bi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> It might be more interesting to skip Cordova altogether. The industry
> is full of ferment about CD. If everyone checks their rhetoric at the
> door, there could be an interesting conversation about how to mesh the
> ideas of CD and the ideals of the ASF.
>


Agreed. I (from my comfortable arm chair, looking on) don't see
Cordova as being a snowflake; but the larger topic is interesting.  I
do see the software industry and a lot of open source projects waving
the CD flag. I personally don't see CD and the Apache Way as mutually
exclusive, though I see problems it could create if not handled well.

--David

Re: ApacheCon community panel

[Benson Margulies <bi...@gmail.com>]

It might be more interesting to skip Cordova altogether. The industry
is full of ferment about CD. If everyone checks their rhetoric at the
door, there could be an interesting conversation about how to mesh the
ideas of CD and the ideals of the ASF.

On Tue, Mar 11, 2014 at 8:03 AM, Jim Jagielski <ji...@jagunet.com> wrote:
>
> On Mar 10, 2014, at 4:36 PM, Roman Shaposhnik <ro...@shaposhnik.org> wrote:
> Not sure if we have much diversity in what the current
>> projects do, but obviously Cordova is a good example of a project
>> that has special needs.
>>
>
> What would be interesting would be to know if Cordova really
> *does* have special "needs" or whether they are really just
> "wants"...

Re: ApacheCon community panel

[Jim Jagielski <ji...@jaguNET.com>]

On Mar 10, 2014, at 4:36 PM, Roman Shaposhnik <ro...@shaposhnik.org> wrote:
Not sure if we have much diversity in what the current
> projects do, but obviously Cordova is a good example of a project
> that has special needs.
> 

What would be interesting would be to know if Cordova really
*does* have special "needs" or whether they are really just
"wants"...

Re: ApacheCon community panel

[Roman Shaposhnik <ro...@shaposhnik.org>]

Hi!

On Mon, Mar 10, 2014 at 11:12 AM, Rich Bowen <rb...@rcbowen.com> wrote:
> Hello, folks,
>
> On the schedule for ApacheCon is a community panel. We have an MC - Joe
> Brockmeier - but we don't have a topic. Some topics were suggested a few
> weeks ago, and the one that sounded the most interesting to me - something
> around the release cadence discussion surrounding Cordova.
>
> While Cordova has voted on their releases, and the crisis has abated, the
> issue still remains - how is the Apache release process going to survive a
> C.I. world? Are changes needed? Is what we have good enough?
>
> Do folks think that this will make a good panel discussion (obvious, I do),
> and, if so, who should participate in such a panel? I'd love to see someone
> from the board, and someone from the Cordova PMC. Suggestions as to who that
> should be?

I think this could be pretty illuminating. What what I would like to see
on such a panel is a mixture of projects with different release
cadences. Not sure if we have much diversity in what the current
projects do, but obviously Cordova is a good example of a project
that has special needs.

Thanks,
Roman.

Re: ApacheCon community panel

[Rich Bowen <rb...@rcbowen.com>]

On 03/10/2014 03:46 PM, Benson Margulies wrote:
> I don't see how you can anticipate anything productive, given the
> number of board members who think that the concept is evil, or, at
> least, counter to their vision of the Apache Way.

I'm pretty sure that's a misconception. I'm also sure that there's a 
middle ground where a compromise can be reached.

>
> On Mon, Mar 10, 2014 at 3:18 PM, Rich Bowen <rb...@rcbowen.com> wrote:
>> On 03/10/2014 02:36 PM, Nick Burch wrote:
>>> On Mon, 10 Mar 2014, Rich Bowen wrote:
>>>> Do folks think that this will make a good panel discussion (obvious, I
>>>> do), and, if so, who should participate in such a panel? I'd love to see
>>>> someone from the board, and someone from the Cordova PMC. Suggestions as to
>>>> who that should be?
>>>
>>> I'd vote for someone from infra too. My reading of the debate was that
>>> there'd be additional tooling needed to support a community that wanted to
>>> release that fast if they were to still maintain the levels of checking we
>>> want + not burn out trying. A comdev volunteer might round it out as well,
>>> since there were concerns about how volunteers and new community members
>>> would be encouraged + supported to participate if there were lots of "work
>>> hours" community members involved in the fast cadence process.
>>>
>>> As for the board member, do you want a fireworks filled session, a lively
>>> debate, or a quiet but very productive one? ;-)
>>
>> Ideally I'd want something lively and productive. Fireworks might fill seats
>> but ultimately do us no good.
>>
>> --
>> Rich Bowen - rbowen@rcbowen.com - @rbowen
>> http://apachecon.com/ - @apachecon
>>

-- 
Rich Bowen - rbowen@rcbowen.com - @rbowen
http://apachecon.com/ - @apachecon

Re: ApacheCon community panel

[Benson Margulies <bi...@gmail.com>]

I don't see how you can anticipate anything productive, given the
number of board members who think that the concept is evil, or, at
least, counter to their vision of the Apache Way.

On Mon, Mar 10, 2014 at 3:18 PM, Rich Bowen <rb...@rcbowen.com> wrote:
>
> On 03/10/2014 02:36 PM, Nick Burch wrote:
>>
>> On Mon, 10 Mar 2014, Rich Bowen wrote:
>>>
>>> Do folks think that this will make a good panel discussion (obvious, I
>>> do), and, if so, who should participate in such a panel? I'd love to see
>>> someone from the board, and someone from the Cordova PMC. Suggestions as to
>>> who that should be?
>>
>>
>> I'd vote for someone from infra too. My reading of the debate was that
>> there'd be additional tooling needed to support a community that wanted to
>> release that fast if they were to still maintain the levels of checking we
>> want + not burn out trying. A comdev volunteer might round it out as well,
>> since there were concerns about how volunteers and new community members
>> would be encouraged + supported to participate if there were lots of "work
>> hours" community members involved in the fast cadence process.
>>
>> As for the board member, do you want a fireworks filled session, a lively
>> debate, or a quiet but very productive one? ;-)
>
>
> Ideally I'd want something lively and productive. Fireworks might fill seats
> but ultimately do us no good.
>
> --
> Rich Bowen - rbowen@rcbowen.com - @rbowen
> http://apachecon.com/ - @apachecon
>

Re: ApacheCon community panel

[Rich Bowen <rb...@rcbowen.com>]

On 03/10/2014 02:36 PM, Nick Burch wrote:
> On Mon, 10 Mar 2014, Rich Bowen wrote:
>> Do folks think that this will make a good panel discussion (obvious, 
>> I do), and, if so, who should participate in such a panel? I'd love 
>> to see someone from the board, and someone from the Cordova PMC. 
>> Suggestions as to who that should be?
>
> I'd vote for someone from infra too. My reading of the debate was that 
> there'd be additional tooling needed to support a community that 
> wanted to release that fast if they were to still maintain the levels 
> of checking we want + not burn out trying. A comdev volunteer might 
> round it out as well, since there were concerns about how volunteers 
> and new community members would be encouraged + supported to 
> participate if there were lots of "work hours" community members 
> involved in the fast cadence process.
>
> As for the board member, do you want a fireworks filled session, a 
> lively debate, or a quiet but very productive one? ;-)

Ideally I'd want something lively and productive. Fireworks might fill 
seats but ultimately do us no good.

-- 
Rich Bowen - rbowen@rcbowen.com - @rbowen
http://apachecon.com/ - @apachecon

Re: ApacheCon community panel

[Nick Burch <ni...@apache.org>]

On Mon, 10 Mar 2014, Rich Bowen wrote:
> Do folks think that this will make a good panel discussion (obvious, I 
> do), and, if so, who should participate in such a panel? I'd love to see 
> someone from the board, and someone from the Cordova PMC. Suggestions as 
> to who that should be?

I'd vote for someone from infra too. My reading of the debate was that 
there'd be additional tooling needed to support a community that wanted to 
release that fast if they were to still maintain the levels of checking we 
want + not burn out trying. A comdev volunteer might round it out as well, 
since there were concerns about how volunteers and new community members 
would be encouraged + supported to participate if there were lots of "work 
hours" community members involved in the fast cadence process.

As for the board member, do you want a fireworks filled session, a lively 
debate, or a quiet but very productive one? ;-)

Nick