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Posted to dev@cocoon.apache.org by Stefano Mazzocchi <st...@apache.org> on 2000/05/22 16:26:04 UTC
[cocoon 2] removing bottenecks
People,
we are _clearly_ going to fail to provide a beta version release for
Cocoon2 for the end of this month. So, don't count on it.
Due to problems with Pierpaolo that clearly is not able to do the job he
volunteered for, I'm right now proposing the election of a new Cocoon2
project coordinator.
Even if I don't have much time, I volunteer for that role, trying to
coordinate effort and provide substantial background for this project to
_happen_.
This would automatically close down the Cocoon 1.x branch, which will
remain there just and only for bugfixes, but nothing else will added to
that branch or backported from Cocoon2.
I must say I'm very disappointed by everything that happened on the
Cocoon2 branch so far, on the management side of things. (I don't have
to say anything about code, Pier, Donald and Ricardo did a great job
indeed).
But the project lacks coordination and I see forking frictions
developping in the community, along with higher expectance.
The plan is going to change:
- alpha version for Javaone
- beta version for ApacheCON 2000 Europe
- final version for XMas
and I hope you all come and give us hands.
Please, place your vote and comments.
and let's get things done, damn it, instead of waiting on out butts
forever.
--
Stefano Mazzocchi One must still have chaos in oneself to be
able to give birth to a dancing star.
<st...@apache.org> Friedrich Nietzsche
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Missed us in Orlando? Make it up with ApacheCON Europe in London!
------------------------- http://ApacheCon.Com ---------------------
Re: [cocoon 2] removing bottenecks
Posted by Ross Burton <ro...@mail.com>.
> As with Ross (It was you Ross, right? ;) I'm not a committer, but +1.
Yep.
> > and I hope you all come and give us hands.
> I think you can count on that. Want a hand on the stall in London? :)
Hell, I'll help too at the Cocoon stand if I can get in for free. ;-)
Ross Burton
Re: [cocoon 2] removing bottenecks
Posted by Jeremy Quinn <je...@media.demon.co.uk>.
On 22/5/00 at 7:17 pm, paul@luminas.co.uk (Paul Russell) wrote:
>> and I hope you all come and give us hands.
>
>I think you can count on that. Want a hand on the stall in London? :)
That's a good point.
I am based in London too, do you need a "team on the ground" so to speak?
Jeremy
____________________________________________________________________
Jeremy Quinn media.demon
webSpace Design
<ma...@media.demon.co.uk> <http://www.media.demon.co.uk>
<phone:+44.[0].20.7737.6831> <pa...@sms.genie.co.uk>
Re: [cocoon 2] removing bottenecks
Posted by Paul Russell <pa...@luminas.co.uk>.
On Mon, May 22, 2000 at 04:26:04PM +0200, Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
> Even if I don't have much time, I volunteer for that role, trying to
> coordinate effort and provide substantial background for this project to
> _happen_.
As with Ross (It was you Ross, right? ;) I'm not a committer, but +1.
> and I hope you all come and give us hands.
I think you can count on that. Want a hand on the stall in London? :)
> and let's get things done, damn it, instead of waiting on out butts
> forever.
My sentiments exactly. I assume this would mean all patches etc.
directly to you now?
--
Paul Russell <pa...@luminas.co.uk>
Technical Director, http://www.luminas.co.uk
Luminas Ltd.
Re: [cocoon 2] removing bottenecks
Posted by Ross Burton <ro...@mail.com>.
I'm not a committer but still, +1. Pier's code rocks but his strength is
not in management.
Ross Burton
Re: [cocoon 2] removing bottenecks
Posted by "Pier P. Fumagalli" <pi...@apache.org>.
Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
>
> People,
>
> we are _clearly_ going to fail to provide a beta version release for
> Cocoon2 for the end of this month. So, don't count on it.
>
> Due to problems with Pierpaolo that clearly is not able to do the job he
> volunteered for, I'm right now proposing the election of a new Cocoon2
> project coordinator.
>
> Even if I don't have much time, I volunteer for that role, trying to
> coordinate effort and provide substantial background for this project to
> _happen_.
>
> This would automatically close down the Cocoon 1.x branch, which will
> remain there just and only for bugfixes, but nothing else will added to
> that branch or backported from Cocoon2.
>
> I must say I'm very disappointed by everything that happened on the
> Cocoon2 branch so far, on the management side of things. (I don't have
> to say anything about code, Pier, Donald and Ricardo did a great job
> indeed).
>
> But the project lacks coordination and I see forking frictions
> developping in the community, along with higher expectance.
>
> The plan is going to change:
>
> - alpha version for Javaone
> - beta version for ApacheCON 2000 Europe
> - final version for XMas
>
> and I hope you all come and give us hands.
>
> Please, place your vote and comments.
>
> and let's get things done, damn it, instead of waiting on out butts
> forever.
i know it's my fault...
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------
pier: stable structure erected over water to allow docking of seacraft
<ma...@betaversion.org> <http://www.betaversion.org/~pier/>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: [cocoon 2] removing bottenecks
Posted by Paul Russell <pa...@luminas.co.uk>.
On Wed, May 24, 2000 at 08:11:02PM +0200, Giacomo Pati wrote:
> > I wish I had a pool of writers :( but we don't.
> At least we should convince every developer to commit to the following
> rule (its the same as for the turbine developers). Every class should
> have some meaningfull javadoc comments for the class itself and for
> every public method! I think with that someone can pickup those docs and
> assemble general docs out of it.
>
> Hey, cocoon developers/commiters, your votes please ;-)
Assuming I'm a 'developer/commiter' now (!?), +severalthousand.
Personally, I now javadoc even the private stuff. I'm working on the
basis that I might well fall under a bus a week on thursday, and if
this happens, I'd rather my work was perpetuated.
> BTW: Can those javadocs be written in the dtd we use for the site docs
> (and also get the javadocs generated as usual by a 'build javadoc'?)
Wouldn't that require the XML doclet? How far did we get on that in
the end? As an aside, time to start looking to move the docs/website
over to Cocoon2? <g>
> > Nothing more that what just said: a project coordinator cannot be silent
> > or unresponsive. This is the main thing.
> Ok, I stop lurking and be responsive as much as I can (THIS IS NOT A
> COMMITMENT TO BE THE PROJECT COORDINATOR. ONLY COMMITING TO GIVE MY POOR
> KNOWLEGE AWAY TO OTHERS ::--))
Heh. If your knowladge is poor, the rest of us are in serious trouble.
--
Paul Russell <pa...@luminas.co.uk>
Technical Director, http://www.luminas.co.uk
Luminas Ltd.
Re: [cocoon 2] removing bottenecks
Posted by Giacomo Pati <Gi...@pwr.ch>.
Hi all
First of all let me tell you the story of today:
I got up early this morning to clean my mailbox at 6:30 am. Left the
office to visit a customer today, had a business lunch with my provider,
afterwards I was at another customer to do some work. I came back to my
office at 6:30 pm to see what's gone on the different mailing list I'm
subscribed to. Puuh, over 300 mails!! No, not yet, my family is awaiting
me for dinner, my kids want to tell me their stories of the day. This
evening my wife is out of home for sports, so let's go behind the mails.
It took me another 90 minutes to rush through the mails to grab the most
important news out of them.
Should I take the hole job you're offering me? It would be a challange!
Can I offer the time necessairy to do the job right? What does it mean
to my free time plans? I had to cancel most of the list subscriptions.
Concentrate only on cocoon-dev and maybe cocoon-user?
More comment see below
Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
>
> I would like to clarify: I'm not disappointed because Pier couldn't find
> time to dedicate to this project. Hell, no. This is a volunteer effort
> and we are all friends and we all understand everybody needs a day job
> to make a living.
So am I!
>
> I'm disappointed by lack of communication and the stall that this
> created in the project.
>
<snip/>
>
> Project coordinator should be responsible for:
>
> 1) do the actual submission checkins when nobody else does it
I think this job need not be done by a project coordinator. This job can
be delegated to another committer, maybe having a representative (hope
this is the correct word for) during vacation or alike. Actualy I can do
this. It doesn't take me that much time.
> 2) clean up, update and regenerate the web site
This is not clear to me. Regenerating the web site means to me running
"build.sh site", easy job. Update the web site has to do with writing
documentation, right? And because it is a web site which represents the
project to the world it has to be done by a team of writers/editors. I
think this point is like 1) and 3) but for documentation. Maybe there
are people on the list willing to write documentation because they are
not that good coders but like to contribute in this way? Any out there?
In fact I am a miserable writer (well, at least in english)!
> 3) create the distributions
Isn't this just a "build.sh dist" and write a "hello, here it is" mail?
(Yes, I know, after having the discussion of "should we make a new
release?" :-)
> 4) settle technical and human conflicts (if they happen)
Yes, this is a project coordinators job.
>
> But the most important responsibility is:
>
> 5) being there!
I was always here, and so where others. What do you mean?
>
> A project needs a catalizer in order to work, catalizers are
> coordinators, people that don't tell you what to do, but suggest you the
> best way of doing things, to avoid code replication, to avoid stalls and
> problems down the road.
>
> Is the one that has the global vision and tries to help everybody else
> with his job.
Yes, you hit the point. I actually think I don't have the global vision
and that's why I do not volunteer for the job as project coordinator. I
can volunteer for parts of it as I've mentioned above.
> The status of the project is the same of the initial checkins with some
> additions:
>
> 1) Ricardo has a working XSP implementation
Check it in!!
> 2) Donald has a working XInclude filter (checked in)
> 3) Paul has written patches for static content generation (a-la
> stylebook)
> 4) I have more ideas on how the sitemap, xlink and RDF could be
> integrated
> 5) some Tomcat installation docs have been written (but not checked in)
> 6) some bugs have been fixed (but not checked in)
>
> Disclaimer: I didn't touch a single line of Cocoon2 yet.
>
> we need to remove the dust, include those things, write some startup
> docs and make an alpha distribution ASAP.
>
> Giacomo, if you volunteer for the job, I'm more than happy to vote for
> you....
>
> ... but, please, if you think you can't do it, or others don't like his
> operate, let's not wait another two months to tell, ok?
Hey, I'm trying to be as responsive as I can ;-)
Giacomo [who has needed another 20 minutes to find the answers to this
mail]
--
PWR GmbH, Organisation & Entwicklung Tel: +41 (0)1 856 2202
Giacomo Pati, CTO/CEO Fax: +41 (0)1 856 2201
Hintereichenstrasse 7 Mailto:Giacomo.Pati@pwr.ch
CH-8166 Niederweningen Web: http://www.pwr.ch
Re: [cocoon 2] removing bottenecks
Posted by Ross Burton <ro...@mail.com>.
> Didn't someone have a wadge of SVG code a while back? I remember
> Pier mentioning it when I was first involved.
Pier implemented a SVGSerializer which took SVG and serialized it into a
JPEG. I took this and added pluggable ImageEncoders, so that the sitemap
can define the file format, compression ratio etc. At the moment there are
4 encoders:
* JPEG encoder using Sun's encoder
* JPEG encoder using Java Advanced Imaging (will change to the "Image I/O"
when it's released)
* PNG encoder using the LGPL'd PNG Encoder package
* PNG encoder using JAI.
I also updated the SVG library and patched it to handle transparent SVGs
correctly. This patch has been submitted to CSIRO and should be in the next
release.
Ross Burton
Re: [cocoon 2] removing bottenecks
Posted by Paul Russell <pa...@luminas.co.uk>.
> 1) Ricardo has a working XSP implementation
> 2) Donald has a working XInclude filter (checked in)
> [...]
Didn't someone have a wadge of SVG code a while back? I remember
Pier mentioning it when I was first involved.
--
Paul Russell <pa...@luminas.co.uk>
Technical Director, http://www.luminas.co.uk
Luminas Ltd.
Re: [cocoon 2] removing bottenecks
Posted by Stefano Mazzocchi <st...@apache.org>.
Giacomo Pati wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
> >
> > Due to problems with Pierpaolo that clearly is not able to do the job he
> > volunteered for, I'm right now proposing the election of a new Cocoon2
> > project coordinator.
>
> Could we know what the problem is? Lack of time?
that's the main problem, I have no idea! and Pier doesn't reply at all.
> >
> > Even if I don't have much time, I volunteer for that role, trying to
> > coordinate effort and provide substantial background for this project to
> > _happen_.
>
> Tell us what a project coordinator should be able to do (except coding).
Coding is not directly part of its job. In fact, if I become project
coordinator, I won't do much coding after all due to lack of time.
> I do project coordination in my day job (for commercial project). I can
> only imagine what the diffrence is between open source projects and
> commercial projects (I've never lead a open source project).
I never did project coordinatrio for commercial projects, so I can't
tell you either :)
> The main
> diffrence I think is the commitment to the project and the
> responsability of such a commitment. As project leader/coordinator you
> can't say "he, get your job done, or you'll be fired" instead the
> commiters should say "he, I ran out of free time for the project, can
> anybody help me getting stuff done?".
Exactly.
I would like to clarify: I'm not disappointed because Pier couldn't find
time to dedicate to this project. Hell, no. This is a volunteer effort
and we are all friends and we all understand everybody needs a day job
to make a living.
I'm disappointed by lack of communication and the stall that this
created in the project.
> So, more status reports from the
> commiter telling what is going on with parts of the project they
> commited to would help to give other commiters a view how the project is
> forthcomming (as it happened to me not knowing who does what and when,
> so wait until new drops into the mailing list).
Project coordinator should be responsible for:
1) do the actual submission checkins when nobody else does it
2) clean up, update and regenerate the web site
3) create the distributions
4) settle technical and human conflicts (if they happen)
But the most important responsibility is:
5) being there!
A project needs a catalizer in order to work, catalizers are
coordinators, people that don't tell you what to do, but suggest you the
best way of doing things, to avoid code replication, to avoid stalls and
problems down the road.
Is the one that has the global vision and tries to help everybody else
with his job.
Sometimes its very boring and frustrated, sometimes is deeply rewarding.
I don't believe I'm the best coder around here (no, by far!), but I
acted as a catalizer for this community and this worked very well (for
what I can tell).
Sure, I'm not perfect and I did many mistakes, but I always tried to be
helpful.
This is what you should do to be the man for the job.
> > This would automatically close down the Cocoon 1.x branch, which will
> > remain there just and only for bugfixes, but nothing else will added to
> > that branch or backported from Cocoon2.
> >
> > I must say I'm very disappointed by everything that happened on the
> > Cocoon2 branch so far, on the management side of things. (I don't have
> > to say anything about code, Pier, Donald and Ricardo did a great job
> > indeed).
>
> Maybe we all have waited to long not talking about responabilities.
You know, I didn't want to give Pier a hard time. He is probably already
frustrated by his day job and I know he's moving apartment right now so
I wanted to give him time to settle and come back.
But this project can't afford to wait any longer.
> > But the project lacks coordination and I see forking frictions
> > developping in the community, along with higher expectance.
> >
> > The plan is going to change:
> >
> > - alpha version for Javaone
> > - beta version for ApacheCON 2000 Europe
> > - final version for XMas
> >
> > and I hope you all come and give us hands.
> >
> > Please, place your vote and comments.
> >
> > and let's get things done, damn it, instead of waiting on out butts
> > forever.
>
> As I've writte above: what is the status of the project. Since weeks no
> checkins have been made to the cvs.
The status of the project is the same of the initial checkins with some
additions:
1) Ricardo has a working XSP implementation
2) Donald has a working XInclude filter (checked in)
3) Paul has written patches for static content generation (a-la
stylebook)
4) I have more ideas on how the sitemap, xlink and RDF could be
integrated
5) some Tomcat installation docs have been written (but not checked in)
6) some bugs have been fixed (but not checked in)
Disclaimer: I didn't touch a single line of Cocoon2 yet.
we need to remove the dust, include those things, write some startup
docs and make an alpha distribution ASAP.
Giacomo, if you volunteer for the job, I'm more than happy to vote for
you....
... but, please, if you think you can't do it, or others don't like his
operate, let's not wait another two months to tell, ok?
--
Stefano Mazzocchi One must still have chaos in oneself to be
able to give birth to a dancing star.
<st...@apache.org> Friedrich Nietzsche
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Missed us in Orlando? Make it up with ApacheCON Europe in London!
------------------------- http://ApacheCon.Com ---------------------
Re: [cocoon 2] removing bottenecks
Posted by Giacomo Pati <Gi...@pwr.ch>.
Hi all,
Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
>
> Due to problems with Pierpaolo that clearly is not able to do the job he
> volunteered for, I'm right now proposing the election of a new Cocoon2
> project coordinator.
Could we know what the problem is? Lack of time?
>
> Even if I don't have much time, I volunteer for that role, trying to
> coordinate effort and provide substantial background for this project to
> _happen_.
Tell us what a project coordinator should be able to do (except coding).
I do project coordination in my day job (for commercial project). I can
only imagine what the diffrence is between open source projects and
commercial projects (I've never lead a open source project). The main
diffrence I think is the commitment to the project and the
responsability of such a commitment. As project leader/coordinator you
can't say "he, get your job done, or you'll be fired" instead the
commiters should say "he, I ran out of free time for the project, can
anybody help me getting stuff done?". So, more status reports from the
commiter telling what is going on with parts of the project they
commited to would help to give other commiters a view how the project is
forthcomming (as it happened to me not knowing who does what and when,
so wait until new drops into the mailing list).
>
> This would automatically close down the Cocoon 1.x branch, which will
> remain there just and only for bugfixes, but nothing else will added to
> that branch or backported from Cocoon2.
>
> I must say I'm very disappointed by everything that happened on the
> Cocoon2 branch so far, on the management side of things. (I don't have
> to say anything about code, Pier, Donald and Ricardo did a great job
> indeed).
Maybe we all have waited to long not talking about responabilities.
>
> But the project lacks coordination and I see forking frictions
> developping in the community, along with higher expectance.
>
> The plan is going to change:
>
> - alpha version for Javaone
> - beta version for ApacheCON 2000 Europe
> - final version for XMas
>
> and I hope you all come and give us hands.
>
> Please, place your vote and comments.
>
> and let's get things done, damn it, instead of waiting on out butts
> forever.
As I've writte above: what is the status of the project. Since weeks no
checkins have been made to the cvs.
>
> --
> Stefano Mazzocchi One must still have chaos in oneself to be
> able to give birth to a dancing star.
> <st...@apache.org> Friedrich Nietzsche
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> Missed us in Orlando? Make it up with ApacheCON Europe in London!
> ------------------------- http://ApacheCon.Com ---------------------
--
PWR GmbH, Organisation & Entwicklung Tel: +41 (0)1 856 2202
Giacomo Pati, CTO/CEO Fax: +41 (0)1 856 2201
Hintereichenstrasse 7 Mailto:Giacomo.Pati@pwr.ch
CH-8166 Niederweningen Web: http://www.pwr.ch
Re: [cocoon 2] removing bottenecks
Posted by Mark Washeim <es...@canuck.com>.
on 29/5/00 12:20 am, Stefano Mazzocchi at stefano@apache.org wrote:
> Mark Washeim wrote:
>
>> Hej, Stefano, please! Cocoon 1 is not a hacked design. You may have found it
>> wanting but it's no hack. The reactor pattern and the use of PIs is a
>> perfectly sound design. I think in the interests of central administration
>> (something I sometimes question the wisdom of) you wound up with pipe-lines.
>
> Central administration (meaning a central location for all managing
> informations) it's indeed a bad thing.
>
> This is why the sitemap can be cascaded.
I only recently recognized this when following through your recent posts on
the sitemap revisions.
>> Although I realize it's far too late in the day for this discussion, I for
>> one intend on using cocoon 1.7.x well into the future, if only to create
>> environments in which novice users can play (ie, create 'standalone'
>> documents which will be processed under the 'old' model).
>
> I still believe that Cocoon2 will _totally_ replace Cocoon1 in all
> aspects.
>
>> In any case, cocoon 1 represents clean code AND design :)
>
> Thanks. I agree I did think of all aspects when writing Cocoon1, but
> many information came out after I proposed the reactor pattern (almost
> exactly a year ago, BTW, right before the first Exolab).
>
> I do think Cocoon1 is useful, stable and fast enough to be used today in
> commercial enviornments. I second that.
My impressions of performance, without yet the metrics to back it up
demonstrate that. I have about 5 days left and I'll have a reasonably
finished version of Eurofootball for everyone to look at. That should give
us some idea of how well cocoon (1.7.4) responds in a high volume context.
> But even if Cocoon1 is the future of many server side commercial
> applications, it's already the past for this project.
Granted.
> This project was born 6/12 months ahead of time and I want to keep that
> :)
--
Mark (Poetaster) Washeim
'On the linen wrappings of certain mummified remains
found near the Etrurian coast are invaluable writings
that await translation.
Quem colorem habet sapientia?'
Evan S. Connell
Re: [cocoon 2] removing bottenecks
Posted by Stefano Mazzocchi <st...@apache.org>.
Mark Washeim wrote:
> Hej, Stefano, please! Cocoon 1 is not a hacked design. You may have found it
> wanting but it's no hack. The reactor pattern and the use of PIs is a
> perfectly sound design. I think in the interests of central administration
> (something I sometimes question the wisdom of) you wound up with pipe-lines.
Central administration (meaning a central location for all managing
informations) it's indeed a bad thing.
This is why the sitemap can be cascaded.
> Although I realize it's far too late in the day for this discussion, I for
> one intend on using cocoon 1.7.x well into the future, if only to create
> environments in which novice users can play (ie, create 'standalone'
> documents which will be processed under the 'old' model).
I still believe that Cocoon2 will _totally_ replace Cocoon1 in all
aspects.
> In any case, cocoon 1 represents clean code AND design :)
Thanks. I agree I did think of all aspects when writing Cocoon1, but
many information came out after I proposed the reactor pattern (almost
exactly a year ago, BTW, right before the first Exolab).
I do think Cocoon1 is useful, stable and fast enough to be used today in
commercial enviornments. I second that.
But even if Cocoon1 is the future of many server side commercial
applications, it's already the past for this project.
This project was born 6/12 months ahead of time and I want to keep that
:)
--
Stefano Mazzocchi One must still have chaos in oneself to be
able to give birth to a dancing star.
<st...@apache.org> Friedrich Nietzsche
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Missed us in Orlando? Make it up with ApacheCON Europe in London!
------------------------- http://ApacheCon.Com ---------------------
Re: [cocoon 2] removing bottenecks
Posted by Mark Washeim <es...@canuck.com>.
on 23/5/00 11:34 am, Stefano Mazzocchi at stefano@apache.org wrote:
> Jonathan Stimmel wrote:
>>
SNIP
> Let me reply to this: the impression you get from "under the hood" is
> because what is contained into the CVS branch "is" an hacked up software
> that took a week-end to write.
>
> Cocoon2 = clean design + hacked code
> Cocooo1 = clean code + hacked design
>
Hej, Stefano, please! Cocoon 1 is not a hacked design. You may have found it
wanting but it's no hack. The reactor pattern and the use of PIs is a
perfectly sound design. I think in the interests of central administration
(something I sometimes question the wisdom of) you wound up with pipe-lines.
Although I realize it's far too late in the day for this discussion, I for
one intend on using cocoon 1.7.x well into the future, if only to create
environments in which novice users can play (ie, create 'standalone'
documents which will be processed under the 'old' model).
In any case, cocoon 1 represents clean code AND design :)
SNIP
--
Mark (Poetaster) Washeim
'On the linen wrappings of certain mummified remains
found near the Etrurian coast are invaluable writings
that await translation.
Quem colorem habet sapientia?'
Evan S. Connell
Re: [cocoon 2] removing bottenecks
Posted by Stefano Mazzocchi <st...@apache.org>.
Jonathan Stimmel wrote:
>
> On Mon, May 22, 2000 at 04:26:04PM +0200, Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
>
> > Even if I don't have much time, I volunteer for that role, trying to
> > coordinate effort and provide substantial background for this project to
> > _happen_.
>
> Hmmm... I had been assuming you already had this role...
No. I have always been and will remain project coordinator for the main
branch. When the second branch was created, I proposed Pierpaolo as a
project coordinator for the xml-cocoon2 branch since he wrote most of it
and knows it better and he accepted and he was elected by this mail
list.
So, even if everybody else that have commit access could have done
bugfixes and enhancements, we were waiting for "ok, Pier will do it"...
but never did.
> > This would automatically close down the Cocoon 1.x branch, which will
> > remain there just and only for bugfixes, but nothing else will added to
> > that branch or backported from Cocoon2.
>
> I would think that this is almost a given when development begins
> on a major revision to a piece of software.
Yes, but nothing is obvious enough for mail lists :)
> > But the project lacks coordination and I see forking frictions
> > developping in the community, along with higher expectance.
> >
> > [...]
> >
> > and I hope you all come and give us hands.
>
> I'd love to, but how can I contribute when I don't know what needs to
> be done?
Good point. Don't worry, as soon as we remove the dust, the TODO list
will be very juicy.
> According to todo.xml, the only thing that needs to be done is
> "make sure everything works". If that's the only thing left to be
> done, cocoon2 should be preparing for a final release ;) I had thought
> about combing through the bug database and fixing some more "menial"
> problems, but that's obviously not an option until it's brought back
> online.
Yep. Unfortunately, knowing the "speed" of the ASF member list about
security issues, this won't happen soon.
> <dons flame-resistant garment>
> I love the direction that cocoon2 seems to be taking, but I'm becoming
> a little disillusioned with it. From the outside, it seems to have a
> very clear direction, but when I look under the hood I become frustrated.
> Frequently I find myself asking, "Why was it done this way?", with nary
> a comment for explaination. (Yes, I realise that this is part of the role
> of the mailing list, but shouldn't it be more concerned with *making*
> design decisions, rather than reiterating them?). Overall, I'm left with
> the feeling that I'm looking at a collection of hacks, rather than an
> organized software project.
> <reverts to street clothes>
Let me reply to this: the impression you get from "under the hood" is
because what is contained into the CVS branch "is" an hacked up software
that took a week-end to write.
Cocoon2 = clean design + hacked code
Cocooo1 = clean code + hacked design
Now, if you remove all the code in Cocoon2 and look at the package
structure and interfaces, you'll see these are not hacks at all! It took
us months of resoning on this list to smooth the patterns that go well
with XML generation on the server side.
While other open source projects _clone_ existing commercial software
and find the design patterns already prepared for them, we have to
invent and research both. Code and design.
The complexity and time required to do proper desing must _not_ be
underestimated. Expecially when this project is _clearly_ leading the
world's effort for XML web publishing and one of the very first example
of reasonable integration of W3C specifications.
I totally agree that xml-cocoon2 doesn't look like an organized software
project. Mainly because you're right: there is no organization at all.
We failed to provide it.
And since I understand this, I'm going to do something to change it.
> > and let's get things done, damn it, instead of waiting on out butts
> > forever.
>
> Agreed! I know I haven't done much to advance cocoon so far (lessee...
> one patch to a minor bug in cocoon1 ;^), but I promise to post a
> "documentation cleanup and enhancements" patch to DirectoryGenerator
> within a couple days. Hey, it's not much, but at least it'll be
> *something* =)
Hey, even if you go a long way, every step is a small one compared to
the total distance. ;-)
--
Stefano Mazzocchi One must still have chaos in oneself to be
able to give birth to a dancing star.
<st...@apache.org> Friedrich Nietzsche
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Missed us in Orlando? Make it up with ApacheCON Europe in London!
------------------------- http://ApacheCon.Com ---------------------
Re: [cocoon 2] removing bottenecks
Posted by Donald Ball <ba...@webslingerZ.com>.
On Mon, 22 May 2000, Jonathan Stimmel wrote:
> <dons flame-resistant garment>
> I love the direction that cocoon2 seems to be taking, but I'm becoming
> a little disillusioned with it. From the outside, it seems to have a
> very clear direction, but when I look under the hood I become frustrated.
> Frequently I find myself asking, "Why was it done this way?", with nary
> a comment for explaination. (Yes, I realise that this is part of the role
> of the mailing list, but shouldn't it be more concerned with *making*
> design decisions, rather than reiterating them?). Overall, I'm left with
> the feeling that I'm looking at a collection of hacks, rather than an
> organized software project.
> <reverts to street clothes>
In what sense do you find cocoon2 disorganized? terribly documented, i
grant you, but i find the infrastructure to be quite clean and reliable,
and it's very easy to develop new components once you know what interfaces
are good for what.
if you want a good mini project, that might be a good place to start -
document the major interfaces and classes in the cocoon2 package. what
they're good for and how they should be used. for possible inspiration,
the XInclude and SQL filters are pretty vanilla extra modules. I'd _love_
it if ricardo were to check in the XSP filter that is a work of art. I
mean, the filter API isn't going to be changing much, right, so why not go
ahead and check it in?
- donald
Re: [cocoon 2] removing bottenecks
Posted by Jonathan Stimmel <jo...@stimmel.net>.
On Mon, May 22, 2000 at 04:26:04PM +0200, Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
> Even if I don't have much time, I volunteer for that role, trying to
> coordinate effort and provide substantial background for this project to
> _happen_.
Hmmm... I had been assuming you already had this role...
> This would automatically close down the Cocoon 1.x branch, which will
> remain there just and only for bugfixes, but nothing else will added to
> that branch or backported from Cocoon2.
I would think that this is almost a given when development begins
on a major revision to a piece of software.
> But the project lacks coordination and I see forking frictions
> developping in the community, along with higher expectance.
>
> [...]
>
> and I hope you all come and give us hands.
I'd love to, but how can I contribute when I don't know what needs to
be done? According to todo.xml, the only thing that needs to be done is
"make sure everything works". If that's the only thing left to be
done, cocoon2 should be preparing for a final release ;) I had thought
about combing through the bug database and fixing some more "menial"
problems, but that's obviously not an option until it's brought back
online.
<dons flame-resistant garment>
I love the direction that cocoon2 seems to be taking, but I'm becoming
a little disillusioned with it. From the outside, it seems to have a
very clear direction, but when I look under the hood I become frustrated.
Frequently I find myself asking, "Why was it done this way?", with nary
a comment for explaination. (Yes, I realise that this is part of the role
of the mailing list, but shouldn't it be more concerned with *making*
design decisions, rather than reiterating them?). Overall, I'm left with
the feeling that I'm looking at a collection of hacks, rather than an
organized software project.
<reverts to street clothes>
> and let's get things done, damn it, instead of waiting on out butts
> forever.
Agreed! I know I haven't done much to advance cocoon so far (lessee...
one patch to a minor bug in cocoon1 ;^), but I promise to post a
"documentation cleanup and enhancements" patch to DirectoryGenerator
within a couple days. Hey, it's not much, but at least it'll be
*something* =)
Re: [cocoon 2] removing bottenecks
Posted by Ricardo Rocha <ri...@apache.org>.
Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
> I'm right now proposing the election of a new Cocoon2
> project coordinator.
> Even if I don't have much time, I volunteer for that role,
> trying to coordinate effort and provide substantial background
> for this project to _happen_.
What can I say?
+1: you the man!
Re: [cocoon 2] removing bottenecks
Posted by Stefano Mazzocchi <st...@apache.org>.
Donald Ball wrote:
>
> On Mon, 22 May 2000, Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
>
> > The plan is going to change:
> >
> > - alpha version for Javaone
> > - beta version for ApacheCON 2000 Europe
> > - final version for XMas
> >
> > and I hope you all come and give us hands.
> >
> > Please, place your vote and comments.
>
> +1 if you really want to do it, though i reckon we could maybe talk
> giacomo into serving if you're strapped for time.
Right, I'd be very happy if Giacomo could do this instead of me.
It would leave me more time for my RT series :)
--
Stefano Mazzocchi One must still have chaos in oneself to be
able to give birth to a dancing star.
<st...@apache.org> Friedrich Nietzsche
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Missed us in Orlando? Make it up with ApacheCON Europe in London!
------------------------- http://ApacheCon.Com ---------------------
Re: [cocoon 2] removing bottenecks
Posted by Donald Ball <ba...@webslingerZ.com>.
On Mon, 22 May 2000, Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
> The plan is going to change:
>
> - alpha version for Javaone
> - beta version for ApacheCON 2000 Europe
> - final version for XMas
>
> and I hope you all come and give us hands.
>
> Please, place your vote and comments.
+1 if you really want to do it, though i reckon we could maybe talk
giacomo into serving if you're strapped for time.
- donald
Re: [cocoon 2] removing bottenecks
Posted by burtonator <bu...@relativity.yi.org>.
Mike Engelhart wrote:
>
> > Please, place your vote and comments.
> >
> > and let's get things done, damn it, instead of waiting on out butts
> > forever.
> +1
>
> BTW, when is ApacheCon 2000 Europe???
http://www.apachecon.com...
--
Kevin A Burton (burton@apache.org)
http://relativity.yi.org
Message to SUN: "Please Open Source Java!"
"For evil to win is for good men to do nothing."
Re: [cocoon 2] removing bottenecks
Posted by Stefano Mazzocchi <st...@apache.org>.
Mike Engelhart wrote:
>
> > Please, place your vote and comments.
> >
> > and let's get things done, damn it, instead of waiting on out butts
> > forever.
> +1
>
> BTW, when is ApacheCon 2000 Europe???
October
--
Stefano Mazzocchi One must still have chaos in oneself to be
able to give birth to a dancing star.
<st...@apache.org> Friedrich Nietzsche
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Missed us in Orlando? Make it up with ApacheCON Europe in London!
------------------------- http://ApacheCon.Com ---------------------
Re: [cocoon 2] removing bottenecks
Posted by Mike Engelhart <me...@earthtrip.com>.
> Please, place your vote and comments.
>
> and let's get things done, damn it, instead of waiting on out butts
> forever.
+1
BTW, when is ApacheCon 2000 Europe???
Mike