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Posted to general@incubator.apache.org by Emmanuel Lécharny <el...@gmail.com> on 2015/09/01 16:16:11 UTC
Question related to IP Clearance and software grant
Hi guys,
is a code donation require a software grant signed from the employer of
the people who wrote the code ? In other words, do we require that the
employer explicitely allow the employees to work on some code ?
M understanding is that it's required, and the employer must sign the
grant and a CCLA (or add the employee names to an existing CCLA,
extending it). Is that correct ?
What if the employees can't get such a document from their management ?
Thanks !
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Re: Question related to IP Clearance and software grant
Posted by Emmanuel Lécharny <el...@gmail.com>.
Le 01/09/15 16:55, Bertrand Delacretaz a écrit :
> Hi,
>
> On Tue, Sep 1, 2015 at 4:44 PM, Emmanuel Lécharny <el...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> ...typically, the copyright might be claimed by
>> the employer, as if the code was written during day job, which then may
>> be a legal problem for The ASF and the users...
> This becomes more a legal-discuss topic...however that's covered by
> our committers iCLA, section 4, "You represent that you are legally
> entitled to grant the above license. If your employer(s) has
> rights...".
>
> So if someone commits code without their employer's permission it's
> clearly their responsibility.
>
> The same applies to software grants IMO, on our side we accept them if
> we can reasonably assume that whoever signed them is authorized to do
> so, and if someone wasn't it's also clearly their responsibility.
Ok, many thanks for your input. I think it clarifies the situation.
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Re: Question related to IP Clearance and software grant
Posted by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>.
Hi,
On Tue, Sep 1, 2015 at 4:44 PM, Emmanuel Lécharny <el...@gmail.com> wrote:
> ...typically, the copyright might be claimed by
> the employer, as if the code was written during day job, which then may
> be a legal problem for The ASF and the users...
This becomes more a legal-discuss topic...however that's covered by
our committers iCLA, section 4, "You represent that you are legally
entitled to grant the above license. If your employer(s) has
rights...".
So if someone commits code without their employer's permission it's
clearly their responsibility.
The same applies to software grants IMO, on our side we accept them if
we can reasonably assume that whoever signed them is authorized to do
so, and if someone wasn't it's also clearly their responsibility.
-Bertrand
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Re: Question related to IP Clearance and software grant
Posted by Emmanuel Lécharny <el...@gmail.com>.
Le 01/09/15 16:55, jan i a écrit :
> On 1 September 2015 at 16:44, Emmanuel Lécharny <el...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Le 01/09/15 16:36, Bertrand Delacretaz a écrit :
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> On Tue, Sep 1, 2015 at 4:16 PM, Emmanuel Lécharny <el...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>>> ...is a code donation require a software grant signed from the employer
>> of
>>>> the people who wrote the code ? In other words, do we require that the
>>>> employer explicitely allow the employees to work on some code ?...
>>> My understanding is that whoever signs the grant must be authorized to
>>> donate the code, that's it.
>>>
>>> Depending on people's contracts it can be either themselves or their
>>> employer - we cannot judge that from our side.
>>>
>>> I don't think we ever require a cCLA, that's something that's only
>>> relevant between people and their employers.
>> To be clear, in France, when you are an employee, most of the time you
>> *have* to ask an explicit persmission from your employer to work on some
>> other project, even out of your working hours (for the simple reason
>> that if you work out of hours, then you might be totally worn out during
>> your day job, which would be detrimental to the employer). That may have
>> some legal implications : typically, the copyright might be claimed by
>> the employer, as if the code was written during day job, which then may
>> be a legal problem for The ASF and the users...
>>
>> I'm not sure that is a problem for other countries (and FTR, my question
>> was bnot about french employees or a french company)
>>
> Your concern is valid for all countries in EU. except if a country has a
> exception.
>
> the default in the IT industry is that the employer need to allow you to do
> similar work
> off hours, if not granted it is considered a contract breach and in any
> case copyright belong
> to the company.
>
> I had many problems with exact this part in my companies. We ended up by
> writing a generic
> disclaimer to all, that what they did off hours, belonged to them, but the
> company wanted to know
> about it.
>
> Be aware that in many places the binding is upto 6 month after a emloyer
> leaves the company.
Thanks for your input. I'll make it clear to the people who submitted
some code, in order for them to be aware of such legal problem.
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Re: Question related to IP Clearance and software grant
Posted by Emmanuel Lécharny <el...@gmail.com>.
Le 01/09/15 18:15, Andrea Pescetti a écrit :
> jan i wrote:
>> Your concern is valid for all countries in EU. except if a country has a
>> exception. the default in the IT industry is that the employer
>> need to allow you to do similar work off hours ...
>> in any case copyright belong to the company.
>
> Wow, this is really interesting! I know this is not legal-discuss, but
> if you have any pointers I would really like to read them.
>
> I don't know of any similar regulations for Italy (I work for an
> Italian company), but this is due to pure ignorance. All my Apache
> work, and a significant part of the open-source work of my colleagues,
> is done outside working hours, so your note is very interesting for me.
>
> If you have any more information I'm looking forward to reading it.
> Otherwise, thanks a lot for an eye-opening remark because so far I had
> assumed that by default a contract would not interfere with off-hours
> activities. To be clear: my past and future contributions to Apache
> are not endangered in any way, but still I had never thought this
> could apply by default in the EU. And I'll get it checked in any case.
In France, this can be part of your contract when you are an employee.
Although it has some limitation, and for a benevolent participation,
like working on an Apache Project, during your own time, it seems that
you are safe (at least, it has been ruled by the court 10 years ago. My
information was a bit dated...). Now, what you woerk on during your own
hours should not harm your employer, of course !
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Re: Question related to IP Clearance and software grant
Posted by Andrea Pescetti <pe...@apache.org>.
jan i wrote:
> Your concern is valid for all countries in EU. except if a country has a
> exception. the default in the IT industry is that the employer
> need to allow you to do similar work off hours ...
> in any case copyright belong to the company.
Wow, this is really interesting! I know this is not legal-discuss, but
if you have any pointers I would really like to read them.
I don't know of any similar regulations for Italy (I work for an Italian
company), but this is due to pure ignorance. All my Apache work, and a
significant part of the open-source work of my colleagues, is done
outside working hours, so your note is very interesting for me.
If you have any more information I'm looking forward to reading it.
Otherwise, thanks a lot for an eye-opening remark because so far I had
assumed that by default a contract would not interfere with off-hours
activities. To be clear: my past and future contributions to Apache are
not endangered in any way, but still I had never thought this could
apply by default in the EU. And I'll get it checked in any case.
Regards,
Andrea.
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Re: Question related to IP Clearance and software grant
Posted by jan i <ja...@apache.org>.
On 1 September 2015 at 16:44, Emmanuel Lécharny <el...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Le 01/09/15 16:36, Bertrand Delacretaz a écrit :
> > Hi,
> >
> > On Tue, Sep 1, 2015 at 4:16 PM, Emmanuel Lécharny <el...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >> ...is a code donation require a software grant signed from the employer
> of
> >> the people who wrote the code ? In other words, do we require that the
> >> employer explicitely allow the employees to work on some code ?...
> > My understanding is that whoever signs the grant must be authorized to
> > donate the code, that's it.
> >
> > Depending on people's contracts it can be either themselves or their
> > employer - we cannot judge that from our side.
> >
> > I don't think we ever require a cCLA, that's something that's only
> > relevant between people and their employers.
>
> To be clear, in France, when you are an employee, most of the time you
> *have* to ask an explicit persmission from your employer to work on some
> other project, even out of your working hours (for the simple reason
> that if you work out of hours, then you might be totally worn out during
> your day job, which would be detrimental to the employer). That may have
> some legal implications : typically, the copyright might be claimed by
> the employer, as if the code was written during day job, which then may
> be a legal problem for The ASF and the users...
>
> I'm not sure that is a problem for other countries (and FTR, my question
> was bnot about french employees or a french company)
>
Your concern is valid for all countries in EU. except if a country has a
exception.
the default in the IT industry is that the employer need to allow you to do
similar work
off hours, if not granted it is considered a contract breach and in any
case copyright belong
to the company.
I had many problems with exact this part in my companies. We ended up by
writing a generic
disclaimer to all, that what they did off hours, belonged to them, but the
company wanted to know
about it.
Be aware that in many places the binding is upto 6 month after a emloyer
leaves the company.
Rgds
jan i.
>
> thougts ?
>
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>
>
Re: Question related to IP Clearance and software grant
Posted by Emmanuel Lécharny <el...@gmail.com>.
Le 01/09/15 16:36, Bertrand Delacretaz a écrit :
> Hi,
>
> On Tue, Sep 1, 2015 at 4:16 PM, Emmanuel Lécharny <el...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> ...is a code donation require a software grant signed from the employer of
>> the people who wrote the code ? In other words, do we require that the
>> employer explicitely allow the employees to work on some code ?...
> My understanding is that whoever signs the grant must be authorized to
> donate the code, that's it.
>
> Depending on people's contracts it can be either themselves or their
> employer - we cannot judge that from our side.
>
> I don't think we ever require a cCLA, that's something that's only
> relevant between people and their employers.
To be clear, in France, when you are an employee, most of the time you
*have* to ask an explicit persmission from your employer to work on some
other project, even out of your working hours (for the simple reason
that if you work out of hours, then you might be totally worn out during
your day job, which would be detrimental to the employer). That may have
some legal implications : typically, the copyright might be claimed by
the employer, as if the code was written during day job, which then may
be a legal problem for The ASF and the users...
I'm not sure that is a problem for other countries (and FTR, my question
was bnot about french employees or a french company)
thougts ?
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Re: Question related to IP Clearance and software grant
Posted by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>.
Hi,
On Tue, Sep 1, 2015 at 4:16 PM, Emmanuel Lécharny <el...@gmail.com> wrote:
> ...is a code donation require a software grant signed from the employer of
> the people who wrote the code ? In other words, do we require that the
> employer explicitely allow the employees to work on some code ?...
My understanding is that whoever signs the grant must be authorized to
donate the code, that's it.
Depending on people's contracts it can be either themselves or their
employer - we cannot judge that from our side.
I don't think we ever require a cCLA, that's something that's only
relevant between people and their employers.
All IMHO IANAL etc.
-Bertrand
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Re: Question related to IP Clearance and software grant
Posted by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>.
Hi Alex,
On Tue, Sep 1, 2015 at 9:17 PM, Alex Harui <ah...@adobe.com> wrote:
> ...2) Who are the initial committers? If there is any such requirement that
> initial committers must be folks who wrote the code, then Flex was
> certainly an exception....
There's no such requirement on the ASF side.
-Bertrand
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Re: Question related to IP Clearance and software grant
Posted by Alex Harui <ah...@adobe.com>.
On 9/1/15, 7:16 AM, "Emmanuel Lécharny" <el...@gmail.com> wrote:
>Hi guys,
>
>is a code donation require a software grant signed from the employer of
>the people who wrote the code ? In other words, do we require that the
>employer explicitely allow the employees to work on some code ?
>
>M understanding is that it's required, and the employer must sign the
>grant and a CCLA (or add the employee names to an existing CCLA,
>extending it). Is that correct ?
IANAL, but IMO, there are three separate issues:
1) Who can sign the grant? Some person or entity owns the code and
someone with authority from said entity must sign the grant. Employees
rarely own code. I have to go up about 3 levels of management to get a VP
who has sufficient authority to sign grants for my employer.
2) Who are the initial committers? If there is any such requirement that
initial committers must be folks who wrote the code, then Flex was
certainly an exception. Only a very small subset of folks who wrote the
code were on the initial committers list. However, there was a sufficient
group of customers that volunteered to create a community around Flex.
3) How can employees contribute? That’s up to the employee and employer,
but it is important to make sure you understand the rules. There are
employers that own what you do no matter when you do it.
-Alex
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