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Posted to dev@tomcat.apache.org by "Craig R. McClanahan" <cr...@apache.org> on 2001/05/04 19:17:36 UTC
[PROPOSAL/VOTE] New Repositories for Collaborative Development
Over the last few weeks, there has been a lot of discussion on
collaborative development, across the various Tomcat branches, on two
major areas:
* Web connectors
* A new Jasper (the "jasper34" proposal)
and efforts have begun in the HEAD branch "proposals" directory of the
jakarta-tomcat repository. I'd like to propose a slightly different
approach -- create two new repositories (perhaps
"jakarta-tomcat-connectors" and "jakarta-tomcat-jasper") to be the homes
of these development efforts, independent of any of the existing code
bases. The reasoning for this approach is as follows:
* Avoid any appearance of politics or attachment based
on which repository the code is hosted in
* Make it easier to enforce the technical separation of
this code from any existing Tomcat base code (you have
to declare external dependencies pretty directly)
* Avoid the need for everyone working on these shared
components to have *all* of the Tomcat code on all branches
checked out all the time -- you can focus on the repository
for your favorite Tomcat plus the common stuff you care about
* Smaller CVS repositories means faster CVS checkouts for everyone
on daedalus, on all projects
Because these repositories would both be part of the overall Tomcat
subproject, all existing and new Tomcat committers would have commit
access to both of them, just as we all have access to "jakarta-tomcat" and
"jakarta-tomcat-4.0" today.
Comments? Questions? Votes?
Craig McClanahan
Re: [PROPOSAL/VOTE] New Repositories for Collaborative Development
Posted by Glenn Nielsen <gl...@voyager.apg.more.net>.
+1
"Craig R. McClanahan" wrote:
>
> Over the last few weeks, there has been a lot of discussion on
> collaborative development, across the various Tomcat branches, on two
> major areas:
>
> * Web connectors
>
> * A new Jasper (the "jasper34" proposal)
>
> and efforts have begun in the HEAD branch "proposals" directory of the
> jakarta-tomcat repository. I'd like to propose a slightly different
> approach -- create two new repositories (perhaps
> "jakarta-tomcat-connectors" and "jakarta-tomcat-jasper") to be the homes
> of these development efforts, independent of any of the existing code
> bases. The reasoning for this approach is as follows:
>
> * Avoid any appearance of politics or attachment based
> on which repository the code is hosted in
>
> * Make it easier to enforce the technical separation of
> this code from any existing Tomcat base code (you have
> to declare external dependencies pretty directly)
>
> * Avoid the need for everyone working on these shared
> components to have *all* of the Tomcat code on all branches
> checked out all the time -- you can focus on the repository
> for your favorite Tomcat plus the common stuff you care about
>
> * Smaller CVS repositories means faster CVS checkouts for everyone
> on daedalus, on all projects
>
> Because these repositories would both be part of the overall Tomcat
> subproject, all existing and new Tomcat committers would have commit
> access to both of them, just as we all have access to "jakarta-tomcat" and
> "jakarta-tomcat-4.0" today.
>
> Comments? Questions? Votes?
>
> Craig McClanahan
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Glenn Nielsen glenn@more.net | /* Spelin donut madder |
MOREnet System Programming | * if iz ina coment. |
Missouri Research and Education Network | */ |
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: [PROPOSAL/VOTE] New Repositories for Collaborative Development
Posted by Remy Maucherat <re...@betaversion.org>.
Quoting "Craig R. McClanahan" <cr...@apache.org>:
> Over the last few weeks, there has been a lot of discussion on
> collaborative development, across the various Tomcat branches, on two
> major areas:
>
> * Web connectors
>
> * A new Jasper (the "jasper34" proposal)
>
> and efforts have begun in the HEAD branch "proposals" directory of the
> jakarta-tomcat repository. I'd like to propose a slightly different
> approach -- create two new repositories (perhaps
> "jakarta-tomcat-connectors" and "jakarta-tomcat-jasper") to be the
> homes
> of these development efforts, independent of any of the existing code
> bases.
+1.
Except perhaps the names. I talked with Costin, and we may want to have a more
generic name for the first repository.
> The reasoning for this approach is as follows:
>
> * Avoid any appearance of politics or attachment based
> on which repository the code is hosted in
+1 !
> * Make it easier to enforce the technical separation of
> this code from any existing Tomcat base code (you have
> to declare external dependencies pretty directly)
>
> * Avoid the need for everyone working on these shared
> components to have *all* of the Tomcat code on all branches
> checked out all the time -- you can focus on the repository
> for your favorite Tomcat plus the common stuff you care about
+1.
> * Smaller CVS repositories means faster CVS checkouts for everyone
> on daedalus, on all projects
+1 !
> Because these repositories would both be part of the overall Tomcat
> subproject, all existing and new Tomcat committers would have commit
> access to both of them, just as we all have access to "jakarta-tomcat"
> and
> "jakarta-tomcat-4.0" today.
>
> Comments? Questions? Votes?
Ok, so I'm +4 for this proposal. I guess this means I like it ;)
Remy
Re: [PROPOSAL/VOTE] New Repositories for Collaborative Development
Posted by Amy Roh <am...@apache.org>.
+1
Amy
----- Original Message -----
From: "Craig R. McClanahan" <cr...@apache.org>
To: <to...@jakarta.apache.org>
Sent: Friday, May 04, 2001 10:17 AM
Subject: [PROPOSAL/VOTE] New Repositories for Collaborative Development
> Over the last few weeks, there has been a lot of discussion on
> collaborative development, across the various Tomcat branches, on two
> major areas:
>
> * Web connectors
>
> * A new Jasper (the "jasper34" proposal)
>
> and efforts have begun in the HEAD branch "proposals" directory of the
> jakarta-tomcat repository. I'd like to propose a slightly different
> approach -- create two new repositories (perhaps
> "jakarta-tomcat-connectors" and "jakarta-tomcat-jasper") to be the homes
> of these development efforts, independent of any of the existing code
> bases. The reasoning for this approach is as follows:
>
> * Avoid any appearance of politics or attachment based
> on which repository the code is hosted in
>
> * Make it easier to enforce the technical separation of
> this code from any existing Tomcat base code (you have
> to declare external dependencies pretty directly)
>
> * Avoid the need for everyone working on these shared
> components to have *all* of the Tomcat code on all branches
> checked out all the time -- you can focus on the repository
> for your favorite Tomcat plus the common stuff you care about
>
> * Smaller CVS repositories means faster CVS checkouts for everyone
> on daedalus, on all projects
>
> Because these repositories would both be part of the overall Tomcat
> subproject, all existing and new Tomcat committers would have commit
> access to both of them, just as we all have access to "jakarta-tomcat" and
> "jakarta-tomcat-4.0" today.
>
> Comments? Questions? Votes?
>
> Craig McClanahan
>
>
RE: [PROPOSAL/VOTE] New Repositories for Collaborative Development
Posted by Marc Saegesser <ma...@apropos.com>.
+1
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Craig R. McClanahan [mailto:craigmcc@apache.org]
> Sent: Friday, May 04, 2001 12:18 PM
> To: tomcat-dev@jakarta.apache.org
> Subject: [PROPOSAL/VOTE] New Repositories for Collaborative Development
>
>
> Over the last few weeks, there has been a lot of discussion on
> collaborative development, across the various Tomcat branches, on two
> major areas:
>
> * Web connectors
>
> * A new Jasper (the "jasper34" proposal)
>
> and efforts have begun in the HEAD branch "proposals" directory of the
> jakarta-tomcat repository. I'd like to propose a slightly different
> approach -- create two new repositories (perhaps
> "jakarta-tomcat-connectors" and "jakarta-tomcat-jasper") to be the homes
> of these development efforts, independent of any of the existing code
> bases. The reasoning for this approach is as follows:
>
> * Avoid any appearance of politics or attachment based
> on which repository the code is hosted in
>
> * Make it easier to enforce the technical separation of
> this code from any existing Tomcat base code (you have
> to declare external dependencies pretty directly)
>
> * Avoid the need for everyone working on these shared
> components to have *all* of the Tomcat code on all branches
> checked out all the time -- you can focus on the repository
> for your favorite Tomcat plus the common stuff you care about
>
> * Smaller CVS repositories means faster CVS checkouts for everyone
> on daedalus, on all projects
>
> Because these repositories would both be part of the overall Tomcat
> subproject, all existing and new Tomcat committers would have commit
> access to both of them, just as we all have access to "jakarta-tomcat" and
> "jakarta-tomcat-4.0" today.
>
> Comments? Questions? Votes?
>
> Craig McClanahan
>
RE: [PROPOSAL/VOTE] New Repositories for Collaborative Development
Posted by Mike Braden <mi...@nc.rr.com>.
+1
I think this is something definitely needed and easier than
dealing with so many versions of mod_jk, etc. and since
they are all TC related, probably better than commons for
right now.
Mike
--
Mike Braden
mikeb@nc.rr.com
mikeb@mwbinc.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Craig R. McClanahan [mailto:craigmcc@apache.org]
Sent: Friday, May 04, 2001 1:18 PM
To: tomcat-dev@jakarta.apache.org
Subject: [PROPOSAL/VOTE] New Repositories for Collaborative Development
Over the last few weeks, there has been a lot of discussion on
collaborative development, across the various Tomcat branches, on two
major areas:
* Web connectors
* A new Jasper (the "jasper34" proposal)
and efforts have begun in the HEAD branch "proposals" directory of the
jakarta-tomcat repository. I'd like to propose a slightly different
approach -- create two new repositories (perhaps
"jakarta-tomcat-connectors" and "jakarta-tomcat-jasper") to be the homes
of these development efforts, independent of any of the existing code
bases. The reasoning for this approach is as follows:
* Avoid any appearance of politics or attachment based
on which repository the code is hosted in
* Make it easier to enforce the technical separation of
this code from any existing Tomcat base code (you have
to declare external dependencies pretty directly)
* Avoid the need for everyone working on these shared
components to have *all* of the Tomcat code on all branches
checked out all the time -- you can focus on the repository
for your favorite Tomcat plus the common stuff you care about
* Smaller CVS repositories means faster CVS checkouts for everyone
on daedalus, on all projects
Because these repositories would both be part of the overall Tomcat
subproject, all existing and new Tomcat committers would have commit
access to both of them, just as we all have access to "jakarta-tomcat" and
"jakarta-tomcat-4.0" today.
Comments? Questions? Votes?
Craig McClanahan
RE: [PROPOSAL/VOTE] New Repositories for Collaborative Development
Posted by Paulo Gaspar <pa...@krankikom.de>.
There are clearly 2 lines of "belief" in this project. Each group has
its own motivations and reasons.
We already went over this again and again and my conclusions were
always:
- People working on 3.3 have their own reasons to do it at the moment;
- Work is not being lost on 4.x because the 3.3 people do not have the
same motivation to work on 4.x;
- It is not a matter of one group being right and the other being
wrong.
Each of these groups is right - according to their respective reasons
and motivations.
I learned from Jon (*) that Open Source is mostly about scratching your
own itch in a cooperative way. And this is not a corporative project,
it is an Open Source one.
And that is what is happening here: at the moment (things will probably
evolve in some different direction) there are to big groups of itches
to scratch - 3.3 and 4.x.
Instead of loosing more time fighting about the stupid concept of one
of the groups having to be wrong, let's focus on how the two groups
still can cooperate scratching common itches.
There are some very interesting developments on this directions with
mod_jk and jasper. Focusing in this kind of thing is quite productive
and puts some of the 3.3 people cooperating in the development of the
4.x version and vice versa.
Trying to force one of the groups out of its way will just fragment
this project and take the 3.3 people somewhere else (SourceForge or
so).
In due time, the usual survival rules will tend to favor the
solution that proves to be the best and everybody will work together
again... until the next revolution.
Also, remember that 4.x itself started this way.
Have fun,
Paulo Gaspar
(*) - Yes, I sometimes learn from Jon, despite the flame wars.
=;o)
> -----Original Message-----
> From: plm@mutsaers.com [mailto:plm@mutsaers.com]On Behalf Of Peter
> Mutsaers
> Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2001 7:35 AM
> To: tomcat-dev@jakarta.apache.org
> Subject: Re: [PROPOSAL/VOTE] New Repositories for Collaborative
> Development
>
>
> >> "Bip" == Bip Thelin <bi...@razorfish.com> writes:
>
> Bip> I guess more or less the only reason why TC4 hasn't been
> Bip> released as final is because the Servlet/Jsp spec's aren't
> Bip> final so when those get final I'll guess that we'll start
> Bip> working towards a "real" TC4 release. That release would then
> Bip> be the current Tomcat release and thus making TC < 4 more or
> Bip> less obsolete. Sure, user's won't be switching over
>
> I just switched from Apache/JRUN towards Tomcat, and tested Tomcat 3.2
> and 4.0 to decide which one to take (for the production site).
>
> I found some annoyances in the latest released 3.2 version (such as
> not filling in the RootCause in ServletExceptions, making tracing of
> run-time errors harder), so then I tried 4.0-b3. I found it to be as
> least as stable as 3.2 under some stress-testing, and also it is
> clearly faster.
>
> So I didn't even try or consider 3.3; why should I? AFAIAC using 3.3
> doesn't make sense: either the latest "real" release, or something
> which is better and closer to long-term development anyway, but not
> "official" yet.
>
> I understand that TC4 isn't a real release because of the Servlet/JSP
> specs aren't final yet, but that doesn't bother me, because:
>
> Whatever still might change to the specs, they shall remain backwards
> compatible with the current specs (servlet 2.2, jsp 1.1), so if I
> simply use TC4 according to the current specs, and don't use any
> features of the future specs, then even changes to future the specs
> that TC4 implements won't have consequences.
>
> --
> Peter Mutsaers | Dübendorf | UNIX - Live free or die
> plm@gmx.li | Switzerland | Sent via FreeBSD 4.3-stable
>
Re: [PROPOSAL/VOTE] New Repositories for Collaborative Development
Posted by Peter Mutsaers <pe...@mutsaers.com>.
>> "Bip" == Bip Thelin <bi...@razorfish.com> writes:
Bip> I guess more or less the only reason why TC4 hasn't been
Bip> released as final is because the Servlet/Jsp spec's aren't
Bip> final so when those get final I'll guess that we'll start
Bip> working towards a "real" TC4 release. That release would then
Bip> be the current Tomcat release and thus making TC < 4 more or
Bip> less obsolete. Sure, user's won't be switching over
I just switched from Apache/JRUN towards Tomcat, and tested Tomcat 3.2
and 4.0 to decide which one to take (for the production site).
I found some annoyances in the latest released 3.2 version (such as
not filling in the RootCause in ServletExceptions, making tracing of
run-time errors harder), so then I tried 4.0-b3. I found it to be as
least as stable as 3.2 under some stress-testing, and also it is
clearly faster.
So I didn't even try or consider 3.3; why should I? AFAIAC using 3.3
doesn't make sense: either the latest "real" release, or something
which is better and closer to long-term development anyway, but not
"official" yet.
I understand that TC4 isn't a real release because of the Servlet/JSP
specs aren't final yet, but that doesn't bother me, because:
Whatever still might change to the specs, they shall remain backwards
compatible with the current specs (servlet 2.2, jsp 1.1), so if I
simply use TC4 according to the current specs, and don't use any
features of the future specs, then even changes to future the specs
that TC4 implements won't have consequences.
--
Peter Mutsaers | Dübendorf | UNIX - Live free or die
plm@gmx.li | Switzerland | Sent via FreeBSD 4.3-stable
Re: [PROPOSAL/VOTE] New Repositories for Collaborative Development
Posted by cm...@yahoo.com.
On Fri, 4 May 2001, Bip Thelin wrote:
> cmanolache@yahoo.com wrote:
> >
> > On Fri, 4 May 2001, Craig R. McClanahan wrote:
> > >
> > > [...]
> > >
> > > I've said it before, and i'll say it again -- 3.2 is in maintenance mode,
> > > and doesn't need any further focus for enhancements. Time spent providing
> > > enhancements there would be better spent focusing on its replacement.
> >
> > Even if you mean 3.3, I don't agree :-)
> >
> > The container itself is mostly done ( 3.2 and 3.3 ), but you need more
> > than a container for a production system.
>
> less obsolete. Sure, user's won't be switching over immediately but I guess
> what Craig is saying is that TC3.x should only live in maintenance mode
> until a stable version of TC4 is released and thus making enhancements
> to the TC3.x branches a waste of time.
>
> > Tomcat itself is just a small part of a solution. You also need to
> > integrate it and to add what is needed for a "real world" use.
>
> Yes, but should we really focus on adding stuff/enhancements to the
> TC3.x branches?
I don't understand the "we" here - you can focus on what "itch" you have,
and I'll focus on what I think it's the best use of my free time. That's
how open source works.
Right now my interests are:
- jasper improvements ( that is probably usefull for all branches )
- mod_jk improvements ( same )
- reimplementation and optimizations of 3.3 modules ( that will happen in
a contrib area or an external site )
If I can find other commiters to help me - and get the votes that are
needed - this will be part of jakarta-tomcat.
If not - I can do it as a revolution or on source forge.
Of course, it would be great if the code I write would be usefull to more
than tomcat3.3 - so I hope we can find a way to work togheter on code that
is of common interest.
Costin
Re: [PROPOSAL/VOTE] New Repositories for Collaborative Development
Posted by Bip Thelin <bi...@razorfish.com>.
cmanolache@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> On Fri, 4 May 2001, Craig R. McClanahan wrote:
> >
> > [...]
> >
> > I've said it before, and i'll say it again -- 3.2 is in maintenance mode,
> > and doesn't need any further focus for enhancements. Time spent providing
> > enhancements there would be better spent focusing on its replacement.
>
> Even if you mean 3.3, I don't agree :-)
>
> The container itself is mostly done ( 3.2 and 3.3 ), but you need more
> than a container for a production system.
I guess more or less the only reason why TC4 hasn't been released as final
is because the Servlet/Jsp spec's aren't final so when those get final I'll
guess that we'll start working towards a "real" TC4 release. That release
would then be the current Tomcat release and thus making TC < 4 more or
less obsolete. Sure, user's won't be switching over immediately but I guess
what Craig is saying is that TC3.x should only live in maintenance mode
until a stable version of TC4 is released and thus making enhancements
to the TC3.x branches a waste of time.
> Tomcat itself is just a small part of a solution. You also need to
> integrate it and to add what is needed for a "real world" use.
Yes, but should we really focus on adding stuff/enhancements to the TC3.x branches?
..bip
Re: [PROPOSAL/VOTE] New Repositories for Collaborative Development
Posted by cm...@yahoo.com.
On Fri, 4 May 2001, Craig R. McClanahan wrote:
> > +1 for separate repository, but I preffer
> >
> > "jakarta-tomcat-modules" or some common repository.
> >
> > Reason: connector and jasper are just particular modules that could be
> > used in multiple versions of tomcat ( like 3.2, 3.3, 4.0 or 4.1 ). There
> > are other pieces that could be developed in the common repository.
> >
>
> If you mean 'modules' in the general sense of a shareable component (so
> that it would include interceptors for 3.2 and valves for 4.0, for
> example), I don't care much about the name, although your particular
> choice doesn't avoid the political appearances issue. If you mean
> 'modules' as in something that implements the 3.3 apis for modules, be my
> guest -- but that makes it pretty useless to many. (3.3 apis are
> irrelevant to anything I'm interested in, for example.)
I mean modules in the sense of "pieces" of add-on functionality that are
not specific to a particular tomcat implementation.
For example the web-based build tool ( where I'm trying to create an easy
to use interface for the build process ), and is in no way specific to
a tomcat version ( except that it's using 2.2/1.1 ). Or a logger that
could be used in 3.2, 3.3 or 4.0.
> > If you want, we can have all 3 ( connectors, jasper, modules ) - but I
> > would really want a repository to replace the current /proposal and be
> > usable in multiple tomcat versions.
> >
> > For example the JAAS auth, the logger ( that would be really needed in
> > 3.2 for example ), and maybe even the build tool.
> >
>
> I've said it before, and i'll say it again -- 3.2 is in maintenance mode,
> and doesn't need any further focus for enhancements. Time spent providing
> enhancements there would be better spent focusing on its replacement.
Even if you mean 3.3, I don't agree :-)
The container itself is mostly done ( 3.2 and 3.3 ), but you need more
than a container for a production system.
Tomcat itself is just a small part of a solution. You also need to
integrate it and to add what is needed for a "real world" use.
And those modules are mostly independent to the specific details of tomcat
APIs. A good implementation should work for 3.2 ( as the current
production system ), and should work as well for 3.3 or 4.0 ( with
reasonably small adapters ).
Costin
Re: [PROPOSAL/VOTE] New Repositories for Collaborative Development
Posted by "Craig R. McClanahan" <cr...@apache.org>.
On Fri, 4 May 2001 cmanolache@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> +1 for separate repository, but I preffer
>
> "jakarta-tomcat-modules" or some common repository.
>
> Reason: connector and jasper are just particular modules that could be
> used in multiple versions of tomcat ( like 3.2, 3.3, 4.0 or 4.1 ). There
> are other pieces that could be developed in the common repository.
>
If you mean 'modules' in the general sense of a shareable component (so
that it would include interceptors for 3.2 and valves for 4.0, for
example), I don't care much about the name, although your particular
choice doesn't avoid the political appearances issue. If you mean
'modules' as in something that implements the 3.3 apis for modules, be my
guest -- but that makes it pretty useless to many. (3.3 apis are
irrelevant to anything I'm interested in, for example.)
> If you want, we can have all 3 ( connectors, jasper, modules ) - but I
> would really want a repository to replace the current /proposal and be
> usable in multiple tomcat versions.
>
> For example the JAAS auth, the logger ( that would be really needed in
> 3.2 for example ), and maybe even the build tool.
>
I've said it before, and i'll say it again -- 3.2 is in maintenance mode,
and doesn't need any further focus for enhancements. Time spent providing
enhancements there would be better spent focusing on its replacement.
> Costin
>
Craig
Re: [PROPOSAL/VOTE] New Repositories for Collaborative Development
Posted by cm...@yahoo.com.
+1 for separate repository, but I preffer
"jakarta-tomcat-modules" or some common repository.
Reason: connector and jasper are just particular modules that could be
used in multiple versions of tomcat ( like 3.2, 3.3, 4.0 or 4.1 ). There
are other pieces that could be developed in the common repository.
If you want, we can have all 3 ( connectors, jasper, modules ) - but I
would really want a repository to replace the current /proposal and be
usable in multiple tomcat versions.
For example the JAAS auth, the logger ( that would be really needed in
3.2 for example ), and maybe even the build tool.
Costin
> Over the last few weeks, there has been a lot of discussion on
> collaborative development, across the various Tomcat branches, on two
> major areas:
>
> * Web connectors
>
> * A new Jasper (the "jasper34" proposal)
>
> and efforts have begun in the HEAD branch "proposals" directory of the
> jakarta-tomcat repository. I'd like to propose a slightly different
> approach -- create two new repositories (perhaps
> "jakarta-tomcat-connectors" and "jakarta-tomcat-jasper") to be the homes
> of these development efforts, independent of any of the existing code
> bases. The reasoning for this approach is as follows:
>
> * Avoid any appearance of politics or attachment based
> on which repository the code is hosted in
>
> * Make it easier to enforce the technical separation of
> this code from any existing Tomcat base code (you have
> to declare external dependencies pretty directly)
>
> * Avoid the need for everyone working on these shared
> components to have *all* of the Tomcat code on all branches
> checked out all the time -- you can focus on the repository
> for your favorite Tomcat plus the common stuff you care about
>
> * Smaller CVS repositories means faster CVS checkouts for everyone
> on daedalus, on all projects
>
> Because these repositories would both be part of the overall Tomcat
> subproject, all existing and new Tomcat committers would have commit
> access to both of them, just as we all have access to "jakarta-tomcat" and
> "jakarta-tomcat-4.0" today.
>
> Comments? Questions? Votes?
>
> Craig McClanahan
>