How long is too long in the incubator?

[Upayavira <uv...@odoko.co.uk>]

If a podling has been in the incubator for some years, but is struggling
to reach critical mass, is there any reason not to just let the podling
be? Is there any reason why the podling should be terminated?

Obviously, if it comes to a point at which it is clear that it is never
going to reach critical mass, then the podling should close.

But, if it teeters, never reaching critical mass, but always promising
to burst into life, is there any reason why it should be terminated?

I'd argue that a slow and quiet podling does no harm to the ASF for as
long as the mentors are willing to stay present with the podling.

Does anyone here disagree with that sentiment?

Upayavira


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Re: How long is too long in the incubator?

[Christian Grobmeier <gr...@gmail.com>]

On 30 Nov 2013, at 2:16, Marvin Humphrey wrote:

> On Fri, Nov 29, 2013 at 2:25 PM, Upayavira <uv...@odoko.co.uk> wrote:
>> If a podling has been in the incubator for some years, but is 
>> struggling
>> to reach critical mass, is there any reason not to just let the 
>> podling
>> be?

If the mentors stick to the project there is only little problem (I 
think).
On the other hand we should avoid to become some kind of scm hoster.
The incubator has a specific goal and if project enters I believe it 
should
work to reach these goals.
If the goals are not reached like in the case you might have in mind,
i believe we need to ask: why? Are you on the right place?

Sometimes such questions bring up a few problems, sometimes not.

Just for the record, I have no problem this project stays longer. But I 
will continue
asking if there is life in the podling if there is no progress in 
future.
Hope my recent emails didn't read like that I absolutely want to throw 
them out. Its not like that.

Thanks!
Christian



>
> We talked this subject through in November 2011, under the heading 
> "Actively
> retiring projects":
>
>  http://markmail.org/message/4cagxwofrsmkmsek
>
> The biggest change we made in the wake of that discussion was to 
> graduate
> small but stable communities more aggressively.  Isis was one[1].  
> VXQuery,
> with 4-5 active PPMC members, is likely to graduate under similar 
> criteria.
>
> Another change which has happened gradually over the last few years is 
> that we
> have cast aside the stigma associated with leaving the Incubator.  
> Vestiges of
> a less tolerant mentality from the early days persist in our policy 
> page[2]:
>
>  
> http://incubator.apache.org/incubation/Incubation_Policy.html#Termination+of+a+Podling
>
>  Termination of a Podling
>
>      If you receive a recommendation for termination then you have a
>      problem.
>
> I have always thought that shaming projects which don't complete 
> incubation
> was unjust, bad policy, and unbecoming of a volunteer-driven public 
> charity.
> Now that we have softened our attitudes, recognizing that all software
> products have a lifecycle and emphasizing "retirement" over 
> "termination", the
> Incubator has become more self-cleaning.
>
> Back in 2011, the Incubator had a significant problem with 
> accumulating
> stalled podlings.  Today, we have more room to consider podlings in 
> difficult
> circumstances on a case-by-case basis.
>
> Marvin Humphrey
>
> [1] http://markmail.org/message/3aiwjgocoqeojeop
> [2] One of these days I'm going to call a VOTE on changing that 
> language.
>
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Re: How long is too long in the incubator?

[Marvin Humphrey <ma...@rectangular.com>]

On Fri, Nov 29, 2013 at 2:25 PM, Upayavira <uv...@odoko.co.uk> wrote:
> If a podling has been in the incubator for some years, but is struggling
> to reach critical mass, is there any reason not to just let the podling
> be?

We talked this subject through in November 2011, under the heading "Actively
retiring projects":

    http://markmail.org/message/4cagxwofrsmkmsek

The biggest change we made in the wake of that discussion was to graduate
small but stable communities more aggressively.  Isis was one[1].  VXQuery,
with 4-5 active PPMC members, is likely to graduate under similar criteria.

Another change which has happened gradually over the last few years is that we
have cast aside the stigma associated with leaving the Incubator.  Vestiges of
a less tolerant mentality from the early days persist in our policy page[2]:

    http://incubator.apache.org/incubation/Incubation_Policy.html#Termination+of+a+Podling

    Termination of a Podling

        If you receive a recommendation for termination then you have a
        problem.

I have always thought that shaming projects which don't complete incubation
was unjust, bad policy, and unbecoming of a volunteer-driven public charity.
Now that we have softened our attitudes, recognizing that all software
products have a lifecycle and emphasizing "retirement" over "termination", the
Incubator has become more self-cleaning.

Back in 2011, the Incubator had a significant problem with accumulating
stalled podlings.  Today, we have more room to consider podlings in difficult
circumstances on a case-by-case basis.

Marvin Humphrey

[1] http://markmail.org/message/3aiwjgocoqeojeop
[2] One of these days I'm going to call a VOTE on changing that language.

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