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Posted to user@struts.apache.org by James Mitchell <jm...@apache.org> on 2006/03/27 23:47:38 UTC
maintaining human standards [was Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation]
> Now, it's obviously a valid question that Struts developers should
> answer.
It _is_ an invalid question, that's why everyone is ignoring you.
And now, I'd like to respond to you with your own words, from your
own not-so-kind off list response to me (of course, censored because
this is a public list)...
... this is sh** is getting personal now. Who the f*** do you think
you are? You must be one ill-bred little f***.
I don't have to give you any feedback on your lame-a** website. I
don't have to give you anything. I don't owe you or any of your
cohorts a f***ing thing.
If you want to start maintaining human standards of behavior, the
next time somebody gives you any feedback on your work, here's what
you should say:
"Thank you."
I guess nobody ever taught you that. Do you know how bad I made you
look there? I hope I completely humiliated you.
If you f*** with me any more, I'll humiliate you some more.
People like you are very very bad for open source. Some people's
first experience of an open source project is something like Struts
full of arrogant little a**-licking toady bastards like you.
F*** you, you contemptible little sh**.
Now that that's off my chest, I shall forever send your replies to /
dev/null.
Have a wonderful day.
--
James Mitchell
P.S. "Thank you"
On Mar 27, 2006, at 2:53 PM, Jonathan Revusky wrote:
> Emmanouil Batsis wrote:
>> Jonathan Revusky wrote:
>>> Struts has also fallen further and further behind technically in
>>> its space. (This has what has led to the Webwork merger so that
>>> the "Struts umbrella" could offer something reasonably up-to-date.)
>> [Note: This is not a reply to Jonathan personally]
>
> Yes, note that I am actually not the best qualified person to
> answer this.
>
> Now, it's obviously a valid question that Struts developers should
> answer. They decided to abandon work on Struts 1.x and bring
> Webwork over here and work on that. So they really should be the
> ones to answer your question. However, one gets the sense that they
> don't want to answer such questions....
>
>> I keep seeing posts claiming Struts Action/Classic is technically
>> old etc etc; is there a resource available summarizing how exactly
>> this is true?
>
> It did not take me long using google to find the following page:
>
> http://wiki.opensymphony.com/display/WW/Comparison+to+Struts
>
> Of course, that list was surely worked up by the Webwork people and
> is thus, not from an unbiased source. Still, I would suppose that
> the points there are truthful.
>
> In any case, the fact is that the Struts developers have decided
> that they prefer to move the Webwork code over here and work on
> that, so they have accepted that Webwork is better. I think that
> has to be taken at face value, since, you'd think that most people
> in their situation would prefer to have a tooth extracted rather
> than accept that their work is inferior. But that is what happened.
>
> Regards,
>
> Jonathan Revusky
> --
> lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/
> FreeMarker group blog, http://freemarker.blogspot.com/
>
>
>> Thanks,
>> Manos
>
>
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Re: maintaining human standards [was Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation]
Posted by Dakota Jack <da...@gmail.com>.
So Craig now has committer rights on who is a first class citizen? Quite
frankly, I thought Craig would at least defend the people he put in place
and the people who tore down the house with some excuses other than "we had
to make bad code because we are genius's". But, rather than do that, he
continues to act as if he is lead something. As far as I am concerned,
Craig is just another guy in the lineup.
On 3/27/06, Craig McClanahan <cr...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> On 3/27/06, Larry Meadors <lm...@apache.org> wrote:
> >
> > So...are any of the others as bad as this butt-monkey?
>
>
> You mean the WW2 guys? All the ones I've met are first class citizens.
>
> By the way, Jonathan is *not* a WW2 committer -- he's involved in
> Freemarker.
>
> Larry
>
>
> Craig
>
>
--
"You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back."
~Dakota Jack~
Re: maintaining human standards [was Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation]
Posted by Dakota Jack <da...@gmail.com>.
This is on topic? What about the substantive question, Craig, that you
quizzically said was "WILDLY" off topic. Do you even care to appear
consistent?
On 3/27/06, Craig McClanahan <cr...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> On 3/27/06, Larry Meadors <lm...@apache.org> wrote:
> >
> > So...are any of the others as bad as this butt-monkey?
>
>
> You mean the WW2 guys? All the ones I've met are first class citizens.
>
> By the way, Jonathan is *not* a WW2 committer -- he's involved in
> Freemarker.
>
> Larry
>
>
> Craig
>
>
--
"You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back."
~Dakota Jack~
Re: maintaining human standards [was Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation]
Posted by Ted Husted <te...@gmail.com>.
On 3/27/06, Michael Jouravlev <jm...@gmail.com> wrote:
> First, why replying in public list? Then, who said what exactly?
> (would be interesting to know, since you offloaded this pile into a
> public list).
Personally, I'm not interested, and I'm dev/nulling the whole thread.
But, then I don't rubberneck at traffic collisions either :)
-T.
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Re: maintaining human standards [was Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation]
Posted by Craig McClanahan <cr...@apache.org>.
On 3/27/06, Larry Meadors <lm...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> So...are any of the others as bad as this butt-monkey?
You mean the WW2 guys? All the ones I've met are first class citizens.
By the way, Jonathan is *not* a WW2 committer -- he's involved in
Freemarker.
Larry
Craig
Re: maintaining human standards [was Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts
reached the saturation]
Posted by Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es>.
Larry Meadors wrote:
> So...are any of the others as bad as this butt-monkey?
Larry, Craig brought up the issue of whether certain content was
off-topic for the list, but what about something like your comment here,
which simply has no content and there is no attempt for it to have any
content. At least in the private message to James, I was telling him
something pretty directly. He really made me angry. But this message is
just the equivalent of giving somebody the raspberry because you lack
the wherewithal to say anything -- political, technical, satirical, or
anything. Just nothing!
This whole current situation arose from a guy who is on the Struts PMC,
BTW, posting a private message on this list! I mean, you just don't do
that! Yet I see it already. You're going to twist it into saying that
*this* discussion is *my* fault.
Are you guys all real people? Or did you all escape off the pages of a
comic book or something? You don't quite seem 3-dimensional....
Jonathan Revusky
--
lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/
P.S. Larry, why did Struts development stagnate?
>
> Larry
>
> On 3/27/06, Craig McClanahan <cr...@apache.org> wrote:
>
>>On 3/27/06, Vinny <xa...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>Maybe it's time we heard from the WW2 guys?
>>
>>
>>Several of them have already spoken up ... on the dev list, where it
>>belongs, where stuff gets decided.
>>
>>Craig
>>
>>
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Re: maintaining human standards [was Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation]
Posted by Larry Meadors <lm...@apache.org>.
So...are any of the others as bad as this butt-monkey?
Larry
On 3/27/06, Craig McClanahan <cr...@apache.org> wrote:
> On 3/27/06, Vinny <xa...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Maybe it's time we heard from the WW2 guys?
>
>
> Several of them have already spoken up ... on the dev list, where it
> belongs, where stuff gets decided.
>
> Craig
>
>
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Re: maintaining human standards [was Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation]
Posted by Dakota Jack <da...@gmail.com>.
If you leave out the substance of a conversation to say something that is so
dark that no one can figure out what it means, then you have truly, truly
reached the apex of the natural curve to your career, Newton.
Congratulations. Would you care to say something about the issues Jonathan
has raised? If not, on this thread I am done with you and want to thank you
for providing an example of those who support the coding that has taken
place the last few years on Struts. The committers can be proud to have you
as their spokesperson.
On 3/28/06, Dave Newton <ne...@pingsite.com> wrote:
>
> Dakota Jack wrote:
> > Newton, you remind me of a 13 year old girl.
>
> Ooo, guess I'd better watch my back then, huh.
>
> > Have you ever said anything worth reading?
> >
>
> I'll assume that's rhetorical, since only others could answer that.
>
> Dave
>
>
>
>
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>
--
"You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back."
~Dakota Jack~
Re: maintaining human standards [was Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation]
Posted by Craig McClanahan <cr...@apache.org>.
On 3/27/06, Vinny <xa...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Maybe it's time we heard from the WW2 guys?
Several of them have already spoken up ... on the dev list, where it
belongs, where stuff gets decided.
Craig
Re: maintaining human standards [was Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation]
Posted by Dakota Jack <da...@gmail.com>.
Don't complain about the content of the list again, Mitchell. You don't
have the fortitude to respond to questiona about the failure of Struts even
though you are an active committer and you complain about this thread, and
yet, like most of the complainers about the thread, you take it down this
path. Why not just address the issues? Why not? Why?
On 3/27/06, James Mitchell <jm...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> > Now, it's obviously a valid question that Struts developers should
> > answer.
>
> It _is_ an invalid question, that's why everyone is ignoring you.
>
>
> And now, I'd like to respond to you with your own words, from your
> own not-so-kind off list response to me (of course, censored because
> this is a public list)...
>
>
> ... this is sh** is getting personal now. Who the f*** do you think
> you are? You must be one ill-bred little f***.
>
> I don't have to give you any feedback on your lame-a** website. I
> don't have to give you anything. I don't owe you or any of your
> cohorts a f***ing thing.
>
> If you want to start maintaining human standards of behavior, the
> next time somebody gives you any feedback on your work, here's what
> you should say:
>
> "Thank you."
>
> I guess nobody ever taught you that. Do you know how bad I made you
> look there? I hope I completely humiliated you.
>
> If you f*** with me any more, I'll humiliate you some more.
>
> People like you are very very bad for open source. Some people's
> first experience of an open source project is something like Struts
> full of arrogant little a**-licking toady bastards like you.
>
> F*** you, you contemptible little sh**.
>
>
>
> Now that that's off my chest, I shall forever send your replies to /
> dev/null.
>
> Have a wonderful day.
>
>
> --
> James Mitchell
>
> P.S. "Thank you"
>
>
>
> On Mar 27, 2006, at 2:53 PM, Jonathan Revusky wrote:
>
> > Emmanouil Batsis wrote:
> >> Jonathan Revusky wrote:
> >>> Struts has also fallen further and further behind technically in
> >>> its space. (This has what has led to the Webwork merger so that
> >>> the "Struts umbrella" could offer something reasonably up-to-date.)
> >> [Note: This is not a reply to Jonathan personally]
> >
> > Yes, note that I am actually not the best qualified person to
> > answer this.
> >
> > Now, it's obviously a valid question that Struts developers should
> > answer. They decided to abandon work on Struts 1.x and bring
> > Webwork over here and work on that. So they really should be the
> > ones to answer your question. However, one gets the sense that they
> > don't want to answer such questions....
> >
> >> I keep seeing posts claiming Struts Action/Classic is technically
> >> old etc etc; is there a resource available summarizing how exactly
> >> this is true?
> >
> > It did not take me long using google to find the following page:
> >
> > http://wiki.opensymphony.com/display/WW/Comparison+to+Struts
> >
> > Of course, that list was surely worked up by the Webwork people and
> > is thus, not from an unbiased source. Still, I would suppose that
> > the points there are truthful.
> >
> > In any case, the fact is that the Struts developers have decided
> > that they prefer to move the Webwork code over here and work on
> > that, so they have accepted that Webwork is better. I think that
> > has to be taken at face value, since, you'd think that most people
> > in their situation would prefer to have a tooth extracted rather
> > than accept that their work is inferior. But that is what happened.
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Jonathan Revusky
> > --
> > lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/
> > FreeMarker group blog, http://freemarker.blogspot.com/
> >
> >
> >> Thanks,
> >> Manos
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
> >
>
>
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>
--
"You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back."
~Dakota Jack~
Re: maintaining human standards [was Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation]
Posted by Michael Jouravlev <jm...@gmail.com>.
On 3/27/06, Dave Newton <ne...@pingsite.com> wrote:
> James Mitchell wrote:
> > [ Jonathon's well-reasoned response ;]
So the whole thing was Jonathan's monologue? In this case I admire his
breadth of writing styles.
I am still wondering how the whole merger will work out with
FreeMarker being default view technology for WebWork.
By the way, I got an email from administrator@ns1.c-cor.com address
with the message "This email has triggered the content filter for
appearing to violate the PROFANITY policy". All I did is I used
"bi*ch" word (this is how they call lady dogs, aren't they?). Big
brother is watching...
Michael.
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Re: maintaining human standards [was: has struts reached the saturation]
Posted by Hey Nony Moose <he...@liveonthe.net>.
(picture a mood of mild sadness, at such respected gurus needing to take
to each other with little textual swords, and at my failed attempt at
thinning it down to an ending via a lame Court Jester role ... yet i
will hopefully jest on, tragically awaiting the inevitable end of the
king's patience, finally performing my own litte train wreck alongside
the one that i am jesting for)
Jonathan Revusky wrote:
> Moose,
>
> Open source software, like every other human endeavor, is political.
> It has politics.
yes
>
> I have engaged here in some forthright political speech about
> open-source software development issues. I did not even initiate the
> discussion. It was already going on.
yes, have watched it from the start, including your join, which i
actually noted in my mail.
>
> You seem to have a very basic misconception. You really seem to think
> that people have to agree with my political views to use FreeMarker or
> any other thing I am involved with.
no, i was aware of the valid disconnection of passion/approval and
logic/inclusion, i was parodying its disuse (trying anyway, not very
well) - to some degree i was alluding to the herd-like nature of
humanity, ie: that tragically some really important decisions are made
for absurd reasons with counter-productive consequences ("cut off your
nose to spite your face"). on the other hand it is perhaps also of note
that large numbers of decisions are made on purely relational bases.
managers don't buy from saleman that they believe have the best product,
they buy from salesmen that they have developed an effective working
relationship with (read: who they *like*).
>
> That is simply not the case. The FreeMarker community is really a
> pretty good community. You can ask questions and make suggestions, and
> we will be as helpful as we can. We always have been. It's not a
> problem. On a technical plane, you can interact with me and the rest
> of the people perfectly well. On a technical plane, if people ask me
> questions here, I will be as helpful as I can.
i imagine so. i havent used it yet (being a relative newbie), though i
respect it from an ignorant distance.
>
> Using FreeMarker is quite straightforward anyway. We have pretty good
> docs. So the vast majority of people who use it have no interaction
> with us. Very likely, except for the minority subscribe to the list or
> happened on the "Who We Are" page they do not even know who I am and
> don't care. They just use the thing. And that's normal.
sounds normalish to me
>
> FreeMarker was chosen as the default presentation technology in
> Webwork 2.2, not because of the political views of any of its
> developers, but for solid technical reasons.
very good
>
> If this community wants to go the route of making technology decisions
> based on personalities and politics rather than the technical
> considerations, they are free to do so.
free. freedom of choice. what a divine moment in history. i wonder
how long it will last? imagine if we lived in a political dictatorship
that actually told us what software to use! yuk. perhaps when the
American Microsoft Party wins the 2060 presidential election, we'll all
be executed for treason. (insert any tyranical political manifestation
of note from the 20th century in place of AMP and you might get a
glimpse ... nazis, taliban, sadam whatsisname, pinochet, ...)
> But this would doom you to technical mediocrity from the start.
no i'm personally doomed to technical mediocrity by my own feeble
incapacities. nothing else rates as a criteria. there's no other
reason so there's no other excuse.
> Other, competing products, that do not operate under these
> constraints, and simply use the best tools for the job, will eat your
> lunch.
nobody touches *my* vegemite sandwiches! actually no-one *wants* to
touch my vegemite sandwiches ...
>
> Moose, it is very sad that you feel such fear, that you feel obliged
> to interact here anonymously, and even then, to do so with such
> trepidation, lest you might offend somebody.
this is a fact. :.( i can't do anything about it. i have a mortgage
and a family. they can't afford me to make a mistake. even doing this
is a risk. smell the fear.
> Wouldn't it be great to live without fear, to just be able to talk, to
> say forthrightly what you think about stuff? Imagine the next time
> some pretentious poo-bah at your job says something that you really
> think is just hot air, you could just say: "Hey, that's bull****.
> Here's why." Wouldn't that be great?
yes
>
> Of course, your work environment is not like that. But the open source
> world is like that. Well, I thought it was. Sh*t, maybe I was
> mistaken. :-( But if this is just like the corporate environment and
> we're not getting paid to be here, then what are we doing here? Is
> this just masochism?
no, it's just 1984. if the only people watching these forums were the
forum users then it would be safe to have an open conversation. but
gumbies blog stuff like this for the benefit of greasing their future
bosses, and bosses google their incoming employees names to shorten
selection lists. politicians get elected and news services get watched
based on who spins the best, not who has any visible substance. people
who speak the truth are living dinosaurs. it's all spin now. the
internet is over.
>
> Jonathan Revusky
> --
> lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/
Useless Moose.
--
lead on nothing, just trying to cut some code for a dollar ... when
hundreds of Indians and Chinese are about to do it for 99c less. (note
that none of the Indians and Chinese are actively involved in this
debate. they're busy cutting code, not wasting time on political theory.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Hey Nony Moose wrote:
>
>> Jonathan Revusky wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Vinny wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> Seriously I'd rather use Spring, Wicket or Rife than use something
>>>> made by people like this guy.
>>>
>>>
>>> Yeah, it's terrible. Just so you guys can make better informed
>>> technical decisions, I'll disclose ...snip... terrible table manners
>>> ...snip... horrendous slurping ...snip... belcher and farter.
>>> ...snip... so that people can make the right technical decisions.
>>> Jonathan Revusky
>>> lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/
>>
>>
>>
>> (caveat: I have no dog in the fight. I am somwhat concerned that there
>> is a fight going on and I am sincerely hopeful for a good outcome for
>> each of the combatants, and I see irony and sarcasm as possible
>> train-wreckage removal or beautification devices. And I'm a user not a
>> dev, so you won't see me continuing this on the dev list.)
>>
>> Wow. Jonathan, you must be very confident of your income stream! (I'm
>> not, as a reference point) You must be one of these "I've made so much
>> money by now, I really don't care what people think of me"
>> developers. (I'm not, as a reference point) Or perhaps you rely on
>> your technical
>> skill being so unavoidably evident that you can be publicly "direct"
>> (ahem) and get away with it. (I can't, as a reference point) :(
>> ... sigh ... it is quite different to those of us who have to
>> hide behind newbie politeness or just pathetic anonymity in case we say
>> something either so rude or so tehnically stupid that a future employer
>> will notice it and cut us off their interview list. It brings to mind
>> the cartoon of Dilbert going to work in a bathrobe because he'd realised
>> his *actual* worth to the company.
>> Mind you I don't agree (a little understated) with the strategy of being
>> rude as a practice. I think that one has to factor in the 90%
>> non-verbal content of face-to-face communications that goes missing in
>> email conversations. Perhaps if this entire conversation had occured at
>> a JUG or cafe (or under the supervision of a panel of psychiatrists and
>> professional wrestlers), we would have noticed the little smiles
>> grimaces and so forth that each other were dressing our faces with and
>> kept some of the lines a little more guarded. But gosh, here I am, a
>> nobody giving newbie advice to gurus. sigh.
>> Sadly I recall Jonathan's first email to the list, and an early reply
>> from one of the leads saying a warm "welcome". Perhaps I'll dig it out
>> of the archive and repost it for a glowing moment ... like "It was a
>> nice warm morning in Hiroshima on August 6 and there was the sound of a
>> plane overhead ... I always liked the sound of airplanes flying over and
>> ... ".
>> Won't it be disappointing to see the first technical decision of the WW2
>> Struts merger be that the default presentation whatever is changed from
>> Freemarker to XXX, purely based on an unworkable inter-team personality
>> confict rather than any tech criteria?
>> And I can't understand why this thread hasn't been slashdotted yet ...
>> "OS Gurus Flay Each Other and Set a New Direction for the Entire
>> Internet, While MS Laughs" from the my-pattern-is-better-than-yours dept
>> Oh, by the way ... what's "disrupting the market" mean?
>>
>> Mourning Moose
>
>
>
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Re: maintaining human standards [was: has struts reached the saturation]
Posted by Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es>.
Moose,
Open source software, like every other human endeavor, is political. It
has politics.
I have engaged here in some forthright political speech about
open-source software development issues. I did not even initiate the
discussion. It was already going on.
You seem to have a very basic misconception. You really seem to think
that people have to agree with my political views to use FreeMarker or
any other thing I am involved with.
That is simply not the case. The FreeMarker community is really a pretty
good community. You can ask questions and make suggestions, and we will
be as helpful as we can. We always have been. It's not a problem. On a
technical plane, you can interact with me and the rest of the people
perfectly well. On a technical plane, if people ask me questions here, I
will be as helpful as I can.
Using FreeMarker is quite straightforward anyway. We have pretty good
docs. So the vast majority of people who use it have no interaction with
us. Very likely, except for the minority subscribe to the list or
happened on the "Who We Are" page they do not even know who I am and
don't care. They just use the thing. And that's normal.
FreeMarker was chosen as the default presentation technology in Webwork
2.2, not because of the political views of any of its developers, but
for solid technical reasons.
If this community wants to go the route of making technology decisions
based on personalities and politics rather than the technical
considerations, they are free to do so. But this would doom you to
technical mediocrity from the start. Other, competing products, that do
not operate under these constraints, and simply use the best tools for
the job, will eat your lunch.
Moose, it is very sad that you feel such fear, that you feel obliged to
interact here anonymously, and even then, to do so with such
trepidation, lest you might offend somebody. Wouldn't it be great to
live without fear, to just be able to talk, to say forthrightly what you
think about stuff? Imagine the next time some pretentious poo-bah at
your job says something that you really think is just hot air, you could
just say: "Hey, that's bull****. Here's why." Wouldn't that be great?
Of course, your work environment is not like that. But the open source
world is like that. Well, I thought it was. Sh*t, maybe I was mistaken.
:-( But if this is just like the corporate environment and we're not
getting paid to be here, then what are we doing here? Is this just
masochism?
Jonathan Revusky
--
lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/
Hey Nony Moose wrote:
> Jonathan Revusky wrote:
>
>
>>Vinny wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Seriously I'd rather use Spring, Wicket or Rife than use something
>>>made by people like this guy.
>>
>>Yeah, it's terrible. Just so you guys can make better informed
>>technical decisions, I'll disclose ...snip... terrible table manners
>>...snip... horrendous slurping ...snip... belcher and farter.
>>...snip... so that people can make the right technical decisions.
>>Jonathan Revusky
>>lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/
>
>
> (caveat: I have no dog in the fight. I am somwhat concerned that there
> is a fight going on and I am sincerely hopeful for a good outcome for
> each of the combatants, and I see irony and sarcasm as possible
> train-wreckage removal or beautification devices. And I'm a user not a
> dev, so you won't see me continuing this on the dev list.)
>
> Wow. Jonathan, you must be very confident of your income stream! (I'm
> not, as a reference point) You must be one of these "I've made so much
> money by now, I really don't care what people think of me" developers.
> (I'm not, as a reference point) Or perhaps you rely on your technical
> skill being so unavoidably evident that you can be publicly "direct"
> (ahem) and get away with it. (I can't, as a reference point)
> :( ... sigh ... it is quite different to those of us who have to
> hide behind newbie politeness or just pathetic anonymity in case we say
> something either so rude or so tehnically stupid that a future employer
> will notice it and cut us off their interview list. It brings to mind
> the cartoon of Dilbert going to work in a bathrobe because he'd realised
> his *actual* worth to the company.
> Mind you I don't agree (a little understated) with the strategy of being
> rude as a practice. I think that one has to factor in the 90%
> non-verbal content of face-to-face communications that goes missing in
> email conversations. Perhaps if this entire conversation had occured at
> a JUG or cafe (or under the supervision of a panel of psychiatrists and
> professional wrestlers), we would have noticed the little smiles
> grimaces and so forth that each other were dressing our faces with and
> kept some of the lines a little more guarded. But gosh, here I am, a
> nobody giving newbie advice to gurus. sigh.
> Sadly I recall Jonathan's first email to the list, and an early reply
> from one of the leads saying a warm "welcome". Perhaps I'll dig it out
> of the archive and repost it for a glowing moment ... like "It was a
> nice warm morning in Hiroshima on August 6 and there was the sound of a
> plane overhead ... I always liked the sound of airplanes flying over and
> ... ".
> Won't it be disappointing to see the first technical decision of the WW2
> Struts merger be that the default presentation whatever is changed from
> Freemarker to XXX, purely based on an unworkable inter-team personality
> confict rather than any tech criteria?
> And I can't understand why this thread hasn't been slashdotted yet ...
> "OS Gurus Flay Each Other and Set a New Direction for the Entire
> Internet, While MS Laughs" from the my-pattern-is-better-than-yours dept
> Oh, by the way ... what's "disrupting the market" mean?
>
> Mourning Moose
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Re: maintaining human standards [was: has struts reached the saturation]
Posted by Hey Nony Moose <he...@liveonthe.net>.
Jonathan Revusky wrote:
> Vinny wrote:
>
>> Seriously I'd rather use Spring, Wicket or Rife than use something
>> made by people like this guy.
>
> Yeah, it's terrible. Just so you guys can make better informed
> technical decisions, I'll disclose ...snip... terrible table manners
> ...snip... horrendous slurping ...snip... belcher and farter.
> ...snip... so that people can make the right technical decisions.
> Jonathan Revusky
> lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/
(caveat: I have no dog in the fight. I am somwhat concerned that there
is a fight going on and I am sincerely hopeful for a good outcome for
each of the combatants, and I see irony and sarcasm as possible
train-wreckage removal or beautification devices. And I'm a user not a
dev, so you won't see me continuing this on the dev list.)
Wow. Jonathan, you must be very confident of your income stream! (I'm
not, as a reference point) You must be one of these "I've made so much
money by now, I really don't care what people think of me" developers.
(I'm not, as a reference point) Or perhaps you rely on your technical
skill being so unavoidably evident that you can be publicly "direct"
(ahem) and get away with it. (I can't, as a reference point)
:( ... sigh ... it is quite different to those of us who have to
hide behind newbie politeness or just pathetic anonymity in case we say
something either so rude or so tehnically stupid that a future employer
will notice it and cut us off their interview list. It brings to mind
the cartoon of Dilbert going to work in a bathrobe because he'd realised
his *actual* worth to the company.
Mind you I don't agree (a little understated) with the strategy of being
rude as a practice. I think that one has to factor in the 90%
non-verbal content of face-to-face communications that goes missing in
email conversations. Perhaps if this entire conversation had occured at
a JUG or cafe (or under the supervision of a panel of psychiatrists and
professional wrestlers), we would have noticed the little smiles
grimaces and so forth that each other were dressing our faces with and
kept some of the lines a little more guarded. But gosh, here I am, a
nobody giving newbie advice to gurus. sigh.
Sadly I recall Jonathan's first email to the list, and an early reply
from one of the leads saying a warm "welcome". Perhaps I'll dig it out
of the archive and repost it for a glowing moment ... like "It was a
nice warm morning in Hiroshima on August 6 and there was the sound of a
plane overhead ... I always liked the sound of airplanes flying over and
... ".
Won't it be disappointing to see the first technical decision of the WW2
Struts merger be that the default presentation whatever is changed from
Freemarker to XXX, purely based on an unworkable inter-team personality
confict rather than any tech criteria?
And I can't understand why this thread hasn't been slashdotted yet ...
"OS Gurus Flay Each Other and Set a New Direction for the Entire
Internet, While MS Laughs" from the my-pattern-is-better-than-yours dept
Oh, by the way ... what's "disrupting the market" mean?
Mourning Moose
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Re: maintaining human standards [was Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts
reached the saturation]
Posted by Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es>.
Vinny wrote:
> Maybe it's time we heard from the WW2 guys?
> Does Jonathan represent the viewpoint of the WW2 developers that
> are coming on board?
Actually, I'm not a WW2 developer. However, FreeMarker is used pretty
centrally in WW2 and FreeMarker currently is largely my fault.
> Seriously I'd rather use Spring, Wicket or Rife than use
> something made by people like this guy.
Yeah, it's terrible. Just so you guys can make better informed technical
decisions, I'll disclose some more things about myself.
I have terrible table manners, you know. I chew with my mouth open.
There is this horrendous slurping sound I make when I eat my soup. It
empties entire restaurants. People run out of there screaming.
Also, I'm a world class belcher and farter.
Knowing all this, I don't think anybody in their right mind would want
to use any software I wrote. Amazingly, some people still do. But yes, I
think it is only fair to disclose the above things, so that people can
make the right technical decisions.
Regards,
Jonathan Revusky
--
lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/
>
>
>
> On 3/27/06, Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es> wrote:
>
>>Michael Jouravlev wrote:
>>
>>>On 3/27/06, James Mitchell <jm...@apache.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>>Now, it's obviously a valid question that Struts developers should
>>>>>answer.
>>>>
>>>>It _is_ an invalid question, that's why everyone is ignoring you.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>And now, I'd like to respond to you with your own words, from your
>>>>own not-so-kind off list response to me (of course, censored because
>>>>this is a public list)...
>>>
>>>
>>><skipped>
>>>
>>>First, why replying in public list?
>>
>>I can't answer that one. James Mitchell is the one who put this note up
>>in public. I think it was a very bad idea on his part.
>>
>>
>>>Then, who said what exactly?
>>
>>Well, I can clarify this part somewhat. The part that begins with:
>>
>>"this is sh** is getting personal now."
>>
>>and ends with:
>>
>>"F*** you, you contemptible little sh**."
>>
>>was a private message from me to James Mitchell. This was after he
>
>
>
> --
> Ghetto Java: http://www.ghettojava.com
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Re: maintaining human standards [was Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation]
Posted by Vinny <xa...@gmail.com>.
Maybe it's time we heard from the WW2 guys?
Does Jonathan represent the viewpoint of the WW2 developers that
are coming on board? Seriously I'd rather use Spring, Wicket or Rife than use
something made by people like this guy.
On 3/27/06, Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es> wrote:
> Michael Jouravlev wrote:
> > On 3/27/06, James Mitchell <jm...@apache.org> wrote:
> >
> >>>Now, it's obviously a valid question that Struts developers should
> >>>answer.
> >>
> >>It _is_ an invalid question, that's why everyone is ignoring you.
> >>
> >>
> >>And now, I'd like to respond to you with your own words, from your
> >>own not-so-kind off list response to me (of course, censored because
> >>this is a public list)...
> >
> >
> > <skipped>
> >
> > First, why replying in public list?
>
> I can't answer that one. James Mitchell is the one who put this note up
> in public. I think it was a very bad idea on his part.
>
> > Then, who said what exactly?
>
> Well, I can clarify this part somewhat. The part that begins with:
>
> "this is sh** is getting personal now."
>
> and ends with:
>
> "F*** you, you contemptible little sh**."
>
> was a private message from me to James Mitchell. This was after he
--
Ghetto Java: http://www.ghettojava.com
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Re: maintaining human standards [was Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts
reached the saturation]
Posted by Dave Newton <ne...@pingsite.com>.
Dakota Jack wrote:
> Newton, you remind me of a 13 year old girl.
Ooo, guess I'd better watch my back then, huh.
> Have you ever said anything worth reading?
>
I'll assume that's rhetorical, since only others could answer that.
Dave
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Re: maintaining human standards [was Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation]
Posted by Dakota Jack <da...@gmail.com>.
Newton, you remind me of a 13 year old girl. Why don't you offer something
worthwhile once in your life. Have you ever said anything worth reading?
Please take your giggling and your curtesying elsewhere. And, leave the
"little boys" alone.
On 3/27/06, Dave Newton <ne...@pingsite.com> wrote:
>
> Jonathan Revusky wrote:
> > I think it was a very bad idea on his part.
>
> Of course _you_ do, you foul-mouthed little boy!
>
> _I_ think it was great :D
>
> I'm _still_ all a-giggle!
>
> Dave
>
>
>
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>
>
--
"You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back."
~Dakota Jack~
Re: maintaining human standards [was Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts
reached the saturation]
Posted by Dave Newton <ne...@pingsite.com>.
Jonathan Revusky wrote:
> I think it was a very bad idea on his part.
Of course _you_ do, you foul-mouthed little boy!
_I_ think it was great :D
I'm _still_ all a-giggle!
Dave
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Re: maintaining human standards [was Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts
reached the saturation]
Posted by Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es>.
Michael Jouravlev wrote:
> On 3/27/06, James Mitchell <jm...@apache.org> wrote:
>
>>>Now, it's obviously a valid question that Struts developers should
>>>answer.
>>
>>It _is_ an invalid question, that's why everyone is ignoring you.
>>
>>
>>And now, I'd like to respond to you with your own words, from your
>>own not-so-kind off list response to me (of course, censored because
>>this is a public list)...
>
>
> <skipped>
>
> First, why replying in public list?
I can't answer that one. James Mitchell is the one who put this note up
in public. I think it was a very bad idea on his part.
> Then, who said what exactly?
Well, I can clarify this part somewhat. The part that begins with:
"this is sh** is getting personal now."
and ends with:
"F*** you, you contemptible little sh**."
was a private message from me to James Mitchell. This was after he
insulted me as a result of my offering honest feedback on the
struts.apache.org page.
The message was, of course, not meant to appear on this list. However, I
stand by it completely. People like James Mitchell (and certain others
here) are a terrible thing for open source. I already expressed in
public separately that, if somebody gives you feedback on your work, you
thank them. If that is not written anywhere as part of the "Apache Way"
it should be.
> (would be interesting to know, since you offloaded this pile into a
> public list).
>
> And the bitch is: does not SAF2 start smooth, considering that
> FreeMarker is the default view technology for WebWork 2.2.
Well, FreeMarker has a license that is basically the same BSD-style
license that ASF uses. There is no requirement there for anybody who
uses this work to share my political views. Actually, they don't even
have to like my guts. :-)
Regards,
Jonathan Revusky
--
lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/
>
> Everybody dance now!
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Re: maintaining human standards [was Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation]
Posted by Michael Jouravlev <jm...@gmail.com>.
On 3/27/06, James Mitchell <jm...@apache.org> wrote:
> > Now, it's obviously a valid question that Struts developers should
> > answer.
>
> It _is_ an invalid question, that's why everyone is ignoring you.
>
>
> And now, I'd like to respond to you with your own words, from your
> own not-so-kind off list response to me (of course, censored because
> this is a public list)...
<skipped>
First, why replying in public list? Then, who said what exactly?
(would be interesting to know, since you offloaded this pile into a
public list).
And the bitch is: does not SAF2 start smooth, considering that
FreeMarker is the default view technology for WebWork 2.2.
Everybody dance now!
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Re: maintaining human standards [was Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts
reached the saturation]
Posted by "Frank W. Zammetti" <fz...@omnytex.com>.
Wow... as far as a George Carlin sketch goes, that's grand!
"...arrogant little a**-licking toady bastards..."
Hehe, I gotta remember that one. I think "toady" makes it special :)
Frank
James Mitchell wrote:
>> Now, it's obviously a valid question that Struts developers should
>> answer.
>
> It _is_ an invalid question, that's why everyone is ignoring you.
>
>
> And now, I'd like to respond to you with your own words, from your own
> not-so-kind off list response to me (of course, censored because this is
> a public list)...
>
>
> ... this is sh** is getting personal now. Who the f*** do you think you
> are? You must be one ill-bred little f***.
>
> I don't have to give you any feedback on your lame-a** website. I don't
> have to give you anything. I don't owe you or any of your cohorts a
> f***ing thing.
>
> If you want to start maintaining human standards of behavior, the next
> time somebody gives you any feedback on your work, here's what you
> should say:
>
> "Thank you."
>
> I guess nobody ever taught you that. Do you know how bad I made you
> look there? I hope I completely humiliated you.
>
> If you f*** with me any more, I'll humiliate you some more.
>
> People like you are very very bad for open source. Some people's first
> experience of an open source project is something like Struts full of
> arrogant little a**-licking toady bastards like you.
>
> F*** you, you contemptible little sh**.
>
>
>
> Now that that's off my chest, I shall forever send your replies to
> /dev/null.
>
> Have a wonderful day.
>
>
> --
> James Mitchell
>
> P.S. "Thank you"
>
>
>
> On Mar 27, 2006, at 2:53 PM, Jonathan Revusky wrote:
>
>> Emmanouil Batsis wrote:
>>> Jonathan Revusky wrote:
>>>> Struts has also fallen further and further behind technically in its
>>>> space. (This has what has led to the Webwork merger so that the
>>>> "Struts umbrella" could offer something reasonably up-to-date.)
>>> [Note: This is not a reply to Jonathan personally]
>>
>> Yes, note that I am actually not the best qualified person to answer
>> this.
>>
>> Now, it's obviously a valid question that Struts developers should
>> answer. They decided to abandon work on Struts 1.x and bring Webwork
>> over here and work on that. So they really should be the ones to
>> answer your question. However, one gets the sense that they don't want
>> to answer such questions....
>>
>>> I keep seeing posts claiming Struts Action/Classic is technically old
>>> etc etc; is there a resource available summarizing how exactly this
>>> is true?
>>
>> It did not take me long using google to find the following page:
>>
>> http://wiki.opensymphony.com/display/WW/Comparison+to+Struts
>>
>> Of course, that list was surely worked up by the Webwork people and is
>> thus, not from an unbiased source. Still, I would suppose that the
>> points there are truthful.
>>
>> In any case, the fact is that the Struts developers have decided that
>> they prefer to move the Webwork code over here and work on that, so
>> they have accepted that Webwork is better. I think that has to be
>> taken at face value, since, you'd think that most people in their
>> situation would prefer to have a tooth extracted rather than accept
>> that their work is inferior. But that is what happened.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Jonathan Revusky
>> --
>> lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/
>> FreeMarker group blog, http://freemarker.blogspot.com/
>>
>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Manos
>>
>>
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>>
>
>
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>
>
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Re: maintaining human standards [was Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts
reached the saturation]
Posted by Dave Newton <ne...@pingsite.com>.
*rotflmao*
That's beautiful!
I kinda wish _I_ would have gotten that response, though :(
James Mitchell wrote:
> [ Jonathon's well-reasoned response ;]
You just brightened my day _considerably_!
Thanks :D
Dave
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