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Posted to user@ofbiz.apache.org by Jacques Le Roux <ja...@les7arts.com> on 2009/10/12 16:19:08 UTC

Default theme ?

Hi,

I'd like to know what the community thinks about Bizness Time as default theme.

Do you use it?
Do you change for another theme ?
Which one fo you prefer?
Did you find bugs in one of the theme but not another?

Thanks

Jacques

Re: Default theme ?

Posted by Jacques Le Roux <ja...@les7arts.com>.

Thanks James,

Yes, this is already reported here
https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/OFBIZ-2442

Jacques

From: "James McGill" <ja...@ableengineering.com>
> On Mon, Oct 12, 2009 at 7:19 AM, Jacques Le Roux <
> jacques.le.roux@les7arts.com> wrote:
> 
>> Hi,
>>
>> I'd like to know what the community thinks about Bizness Time as default
>> theme.
>>
> 
> 
> It is okay, but the fast disappearing error popup is highly annoying.
> 
> 
> -- 
> James McGill
> Able Engineering
>

Re: Default theme ?

Posted by James McGill <ja...@ableengineering.com>.

On Mon, Oct 12, 2009 at 7:19 AM, Jacques Le Roux <
jacques.le.roux@les7arts.com> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I'd like to know what the community thinks about Bizness Time as default
> theme.
>


It is okay, but the fast disappearing error popup is highly annoying.


-- 
James McGill
Able Engineering

Re: Default theme ?

Posted by Tim Ruppert <ti...@hotwaxmedia.com>.

Thanks Scott - that is what we are seeing as well.  And for everyone  
else - we will be making some mods to the BizznessTime theme that will  
address the issues that have been reported.

Cheers,
Ruppert
--
Tim Ruppert
HotWax Media
http://www.hotwaxmedia.com

o:801.649.6594
f:801.649.6595

On Oct 14, 2009, at 7:56 AM, Scott. wrote:

>
> Hello All,
>
> I thought I’d give my 2 cents worth solely as an end user of ofbiz.
>
> The theme I now use the most is the Bizness time theme. Even though  
> it’s
> fairly new, it seems so much more familiar to me than the other two.  
> It
> looks like the “modern” web. The business areas are very easy to  
> find as are
> their respective categories. It’s also been less confusing to new  
> people who
> are seeing it for the first time.
>
> So from my “user” prospective, I appreciate all the hard work that  
> you guys
> put in to ofbiz and the fact that it has improved leaps and bounds  
> over the
> past year and I sincerely hope that we continue to move forward with
> improvements and not just fall back on what is safe.
>
> Thanks.
>
> -- 
> View this message in context: http://n4.nabble.com/Default-theme-tp197816p252576.html
> Sent from the OFBiz - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Re: Default theme ?

Posted by "Scott." <Sc...@anglolimited.com>.

Hello All,

I thought I’d give my 2 cents worth solely as an end user of ofbiz.

The theme I now use the most is the Bizness time theme. Even though it’s
fairly new, it seems so much more familiar to me than the other two. It
looks like the “modern” web. The business areas are very easy to find as are
their respective categories. It’s also been less confusing to new people who
are seeing it for the first time.

So from my “user” prospective, I appreciate all the hard work that you guys
put in to ofbiz and the fact that it has improved leaps and bounds over the
past year and I sincerely hope that we continue to move forward with
improvements and not just fall back on what is safe.

Thanks.

-- 
View this message in context: http://n4.nabble.com/Default-theme-tp197816p252576.html
Sent from the OFBiz - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Re: Default theme ?

Posted by Jacques Le Roux <ja...@les7arts.com>.

Hi Pierre,

Did you create a Jira under https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/OFBIZ-2398 for this ?

Thanks

Jacques

From: "Pierre Smits" <pi...@gmail.com>
> Currently the search forms position search fields vertically in the second
> column with labels in the first column.
> E.g. in SFA-accounts the user can default search on account (party) id and
> name.
> 
> In my opinion the search bar should have the labels on the first row and
> search fields on a second row.
> Moreover I would like to have the place included in the search form by
> default and a market segment (which isn't available right now).
> 
> And by default I would show all accounts (like it is in opportunities.
> 
> On the profile of an account opportunities are now in the right segment. I
> would like to see it in a seperate segment spreading accros the entire width
> of the screen, showing more information, e.g. stage, type, currency, amount,
> probalility and next step. Plus the functionality to click through and edit.
> Plus the functionality to create a new opportunity from that placeholder.
> Plus the functionality to delete an opportunity.
> 
> Hopefully this elaborates a bit.
> 
> 2009/10/14 Jacques Le Roux <ja...@les7arts.com>
> 
>> Hi Pierre,
>>
>> Inline...
>>
>> From: "Pierre Smits" <pi...@gmail.com>
>>
>>> But even there some improvements
>>> can be made. E.g. in SFA-accounts the search fields could be spread more
>>> horizontally than it is now. And I guess that can be said for more
>>> layouts.
>>>
>>
>> Could you explain more this last point, I don't get it
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> Jacquees
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> Pierre
>>>
>>>
>>> 2009/10/12 Jacques Le Roux <ja...@les7arts.com>
>>>
>>>  Hi,
>>>>
>>>> I'd like to know what the community thinks about Bizness Time as default
>>>> theme.
>>>>
>>>> Do you use it?
>>>> Do you change for another theme ?
>>>> Which one fo you prefer?
>>>> Did you find bugs in one of the theme but not another?
>>>>
>>>> Thanks
>>>>
>>>> Jacques
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>

Re: Default theme ?

Posted by Pierre Smits <pi...@gmail.com>.

Currently the search forms position search fields vertically in the second
column with labels in the first column.
E.g. in SFA-accounts the user can default search on account (party) id and
name.

In my opinion the search bar should have the labels on the first row and
search fields on a second row.
Moreover I would like to have the place included in the search form by
default and a market segment (which isn't available right now).

And by default I would show all accounts (like it is in opportunities.

On the profile of an account opportunities are now in the right segment. I
would like to see it in a seperate segment spreading accros the entire width
of the screen, showing more information, e.g. stage, type, currency, amount,
probalility and next step. Plus the functionality to click through and edit.
Plus the functionality to create a new opportunity from that placeholder.
Plus the functionality to delete an opportunity.

Hopefully this elaborates a bit.

2009/10/14 Jacques Le Roux <ja...@les7arts.com>

> Hi Pierre,
>
> Inline...
>
> From: "Pierre Smits" <pi...@gmail.com>
>
>> But even there some improvements
>> can be made. E.g. in SFA-accounts the search fields could be spread more
>> horizontally than it is now. And I guess that can be said for more
>> layouts.
>>
>
> Could you explain more this last point, I don't get it
>
> Thanks
>
> Jacquees
>
>
>
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Pierre
>>
>>
>> 2009/10/12 Jacques Le Roux <ja...@les7arts.com>
>>
>>  Hi,
>>>
>>> I'd like to know what the community thinks about Bizness Time as default
>>> theme.
>>>
>>> Do you use it?
>>> Do you change for another theme ?
>>> Which one fo you prefer?
>>> Did you find bugs in one of the theme but not another?
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>>
>>> Jacques
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>

Re: Default theme ?

Posted by Jacques Le Roux <ja...@les7arts.com>.

Hi Pierre,

Inline...

From: "Pierre Smits" <pi...@gmail.com>
> But even there some improvements
> can be made. E.g. in SFA-accounts the search fields could be spread more
> horizontally than it is now. And I guess that can be said for more layouts.

Could you explain more this last point, I don't get it

Thanks

Jacquees

> 
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Pierre
> 
> 
> 2009/10/12 Jacques Le Roux <ja...@les7arts.com>
> 
>> Hi,
>>
>> I'd like to know what the community thinks about Bizness Time as default
>> theme.
>>
>> Do you use it?
>> Do you change for another theme ?
>> Which one fo you prefer?
>> Did you find bugs in one of the theme but not another?
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> Jacques
>>
>>
>

Re: Default theme ?

Posted by Pierre Smits <pi...@gmail.com>.

Hi Jacques,
I don't like the Bizness Time as a default. It uses to much real estate
(pixel-wise) for menu items. It is huge on a 1024x768 screen. Even with my
second monitor set to 1280x1024 it looks like it wastes space.

I always revert to flatgray as it gives me more data on the screen. It seems
to me that the layout is more logic to me. But even there some improvements
can be made. E.g. in SFA-accounts the search fields could be spread more
horizontally than it is now. And I guess that can be said for more layouts.



Regards,

Pierre


2009/10/12 Jacques Le Roux <ja...@les7arts.com>

> Hi,
>
> I'd like to know what the community thinks about Bizness Time as default
> theme.
>
> Do you use it?
> Do you change for another theme ?
> Which one fo you prefer?
> Did you find bugs in one of the theme but not another?
>
> Thanks
>
> Jacques
>
>

Re: Default theme ?

Posted by Bruno Busco <br...@gmail.com>.

Jacques,
to be correct I only helped Adrian Crum to test and further develop
the Visual Theme feature.
But the original idea and design was made by him.

-Bruno


2009/10/12 Jacques Le Roux <ja...@les7arts.com>:
> Hi Ruth,
>
> Yes I already reported that please see
> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/OFBIZ-2398
>
> Maybe it's better to inform you that this theme was initially designed by
> Erik Schuessler from BrainFood and then implemented by
> Ryan Foster (mostly?) at HotWax Media. BTW this information may be found at
> the bottom right of  http://ofbiz.apache.org/
> So, for now, we mostly rely on their skills for this kind of things, even if
> everybody helps here and there. This was done in order
> to have a more attractive UI for release 9.04. And we are all (at least I)
> thankful for that!
>
> This theme was also applied to the wiki, there were issue also in
> Confluence, but we consider now that they are all resolved (you
> may find issues in Jira by looking for Confluence for OFBiz project, check
> comments)
>
> The theme feature on both sides (back and front ends) was introduced by
> Bruno Busco and enhanced by the team since then.
>
> Unfortunatley a such effort was no done for the eCommerce, only Bruno gave a
> theme wich is not complete yet. I think the meain
> reason is that most of the time, companies with enough means prefer to build
> their own design. And nobody has contributed a theme
> because, apart small companies which keep the original design and adapt it,
> most of the time the design is totally new and unique.
>
> Thanks for you help
>
> Jacques
>
> From: "Ruth Hoffman" <rh...@aesolves.com>
>>
>> Hi Jacques:
>> Another issue with the default theme:
>> Error messages are only displayed for a few seconds and then they
>> disappear. For example, I just tried to add a file to the
>> "GZ-NEWS-1MO" product using the Catalog Manager and I got an error which
>> was displayed for about 3 seconds. Not even enough time
>> to read the content of the error message. I know I can go to the log files
>> and review error messages, but there doesn't seem to be
>> much point in displaying error messages within the Catalog Manager  if the
>> user can't read them as they are using the application.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Ruth
>>
>> Jacques Le Roux wrote:
>>>
>>> Good, thank you Chris,
>>>
>>> Other persons ?
>>>
>>> Jacques
>>>
>>> From: "Chris Snow" <sn...@snowconsulting.co.uk>
>>>>
>>>> I haven't found any bugs in Bizness theme, athough I haven't used it
>>>> much...
>>>>
>>>> Jacques Le Roux wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> From: "Chris Snow" <sn...@snowconsulting.co.uk>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Ruth, have you tried using the browser zoom out function with
>>>>>> Biziness theme? - it makes the Biziness theme much more
>>>>>> usable.
>>>>>>
>>>>> Ruth Hoffman wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi Jacques:
>>>>>>> Now that I know how, I always revert to the "Flat Grey" theme. While
>>>>>>> the graphic enhancements are nice on some of the other
>>>>>>> themes, they take up too much space within the browser window. At
>>>>>>> times, it is difficult to find navigation links etc.
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes I agree with Chris, I prefer also to zoom out when using Bizness
>>>>> Time
>>>>> Actually lost of the time I revert to Flat Grey, even if I try to push
>>>>> myself to use Bizness Time and Blue Light.
>>>>>
>>>>> Did you find specific bugs in Bizness Time, Chris ?
>>>>>
>>>>>>> Is there any way to revert the ecommerce site back to the one product
>>>>>>> listing per line layout? Not sure if the 3x3 listing is
>>>>>>> a result of a new theme or some other change.
>>>>>
>>>>> Right, there is still this issue (within others...) pending. No, it's
>>>>> not a result of any theme. Maybe it's time to make a
>>>>> community decision regarding this point too...
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks
>>>>>
>>>>> Jacques
>>>>>
>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>> Ruth
>>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>> Ruth Hoffman, Author, Mentor & OFBiz Enthusiast
>>>>>>> Ruth.Hoffman@myofbiz.com
>>>>>>> Looking for more OFBiz info, please visit my website:
>>>>>>> http://www.myofbiz.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Jacques Le Roux wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I'd like to know what the community thinks about Bizness Time as
>>>>>>>> default theme.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Do you use it?
>>>>>>>> Do you change for another theme ?
>>>>>>>> Which one fo you prefer?
>>>>>>>> Did you find bugs in one of the theme but not another?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Thanks
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Jacques
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
>

Re: Default theme ?

Posted by Jacques Le Roux <ja...@les7arts.com>.

Hi Ruth,

Yes I already reported that please see https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/OFBIZ-2398

Maybe it's better to inform you that this theme was initially designed by Erik Schuessler from BrainFood and then implemented by
Ryan Foster (mostly?) at HotWax Media. BTW this information may be found at the bottom right of  http://ofbiz.apache.org/
So, for now, we mostly rely on their skills for this kind of things, even if everybody helps here and there. This was done in order
to have a more attractive UI for release 9.04. And we are all (at least I) thankful for that!

This theme was also applied to the wiki, there were issue also in Confluence, but we consider now that they are all resolved (you
may find issues in Jira by looking for Confluence for OFBiz project, check comments)

The theme feature on both sides (back and front ends) was introduced by Bruno Busco and enhanced by the team since then.

Unfortunatley a such effort was no done for the eCommerce, only Bruno gave a theme wich is not complete yet. I think the meain
reason is that most of the time, companies with enough means prefer to build their own design. And nobody has contributed a theme
because, apart small companies which keep the original design and adapt it, most of the time the design is totally new and unique.

Thanks for you help

Jacques

From: "Ruth Hoffman" <rh...@aesolves.com>
> Hi Jacques:
> Another issue with the default theme:
> Error messages are only displayed for a few seconds and then they disappear. For example, I just tried to add a file to the
> "GZ-NEWS-1MO" product using the Catalog Manager and I got an error which was displayed for about 3 seconds. Not even enough time
> to read the content of the error message. I know I can go to the log files and review error messages, but there doesn't seem to be
> much point in displaying error messages within the Catalog Manager  if the user can't read them as they are using the application.
>
> Regards,
> Ruth
>
> Jacques Le Roux wrote:
>> Good, thank you Chris,
>>
>> Other persons ?
>>
>> Jacques
>>
>> From: "Chris Snow" <sn...@snowconsulting.co.uk>
>>> I haven't found any bugs in Bizness theme, athough I haven't used it much...
>>>
>>> Jacques Le Roux wrote:
>>>> From: "Chris Snow" <sn...@snowconsulting.co.uk>
>>>>> Hi Ruth, have you tried using the browser zoom out function with Biziness theme? - it makes the Biziness theme much more
>>>>> usable.
>>>>>
>>>> Ruth Hoffman wrote:
>>>>>> Hi Jacques:
>>>>>> Now that I know how, I always revert to the "Flat Grey" theme. While the graphic enhancements are nice on some of the other
>>>>>> themes, they take up too much space within the browser window. At times, it is difficult to find navigation links etc.
>>>>
>>>> Yes I agree with Chris, I prefer also to zoom out when using Bizness Time
>>>> Actually lost of the time I revert to Flat Grey, even if I try to push myself to use Bizness Time and Blue Light.
>>>>
>>>> Did you find specific bugs in Bizness Time, Chris ?
>>>>
>>>>>> Is there any way to revert the ecommerce site back to the one product listing per line layout? Not sure if the 3x3 listing is
>>>>>> a result of a new theme or some other change.
>>>>
>>>> Right, there is still this issue (within others...) pending. No, it's not a result of any theme. Maybe it's time to make a
>>>> community decision regarding this point too...
>>>>
>>>> Thanks
>>>>
>>>> Jacques
>>>>
>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>> Ruth
>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------
>>>>>> Ruth Hoffman, Author, Mentor & OFBiz Enthusiast
>>>>>> Ruth.Hoffman@myofbiz.com
>>>>>> Looking for more OFBiz info, please visit my website: http://www.myofbiz.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Jacques Le Roux wrote:
>>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'd like to know what the community thinks about Bizness Time as default theme.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Do you use it?
>>>>>>> Do you change for another theme ?
>>>>>>> Which one fo you prefer?
>>>>>>> Did you find bugs in one of the theme but not another?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Jacques
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>

Re: Default theme ?

Posted by Ruth Hoffman <rh...@aesolves.com>.

Hi Jacques:
Another issue with the default theme:
Error messages are only displayed for a few seconds and then they 
disappear. For example, I just tried to add a file to the "GZ-NEWS-1MO" 
product using the Catalog Manager and I got an error which was displayed 
for about 3 seconds. Not even enough time to read the content of the 
error message. I know I can go to the log files and review error 
messages, but there doesn't seem to be much point in displaying error 
messages within the Catalog Manager  if the user can't read them as they 
are using the application.

Regards,
Ruth

Jacques Le Roux wrote:
> Good, thank you Chris,
>
> Other persons ?
>
> Jacques
>
> From: "Chris Snow" <sn...@snowconsulting.co.uk>
>> I haven't found any bugs in Bizness theme, athough I haven't used it 
>> much...
>>
>> Jacques Le Roux wrote:
>>> From: "Chris Snow" <sn...@snowconsulting.co.uk>
>>>> Hi Ruth, have you tried using the browser zoom out function with 
>>>> Biziness theme? - it makes the Biziness theme much more usable.
>>>>
>>> Ruth Hoffman wrote:
>>>>> Hi Jacques:
>>>>> Now that I know how, I always revert to the "Flat Grey" theme. 
>>>>> While the graphic enhancements are nice on some of the other 
>>>>> themes, they take up too much space within the browser window. At 
>>>>> times, it is difficult to find navigation links etc.
>>>
>>> Yes I agree with Chris, I prefer also to zoom out when using Bizness 
>>> Time
>>> Actually lost of the time I revert to Flat Grey, even if I try to 
>>> push myself to use Bizness Time and Blue Light.
>>>
>>> Did you find specific bugs in Bizness Time, Chris ?
>>>
>>>>> Is there any way to revert the ecommerce site back to the one 
>>>>> product listing per line layout? Not sure if the 3x3 listing is a 
>>>>> result of a new theme or some other change.
>>>
>>> Right, there is still this issue (within others...) pending. No, 
>>> it's not a result of any theme. Maybe it's time to make a community 
>>> decision regarding this point too...
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>>
>>> Jacques
>>>
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>> Ruth
>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------
>>>>> Ruth Hoffman, Author, Mentor & OFBiz Enthusiast
>>>>> Ruth.Hoffman@myofbiz.com
>>>>> Looking for more OFBiz info, please visit my website: 
>>>>> http://www.myofbiz.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Jacques Le Roux wrote:
>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'd like to know what the community thinks about Bizness Time as 
>>>>>> default theme.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Do you use it?
>>>>>> Do you change for another theme ?
>>>>>> Which one fo you prefer?
>>>>>> Did you find bugs in one of the theme but not another?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Jacques
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>
>

Re: Default theme ?

Posted by Jacques Le Roux <ja...@les7arts.com>.

Hi Jens,

Could you please open a Jira sub-task under https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/OFBIZ-2398
Simply report what you described below and if possible post an URL for each issue you saw
Also report the OS you used, FF is not rendered exactly the same way under Windows or Linux

Thanks

Jacques

From: "Jens Oechsler" <jf...@smart-ebizz.com>
> Hi Jacques.
> 
> When I open Accounting Manager in Bizznesstime theme, and choose
> Finacial Account, the table List Bank Account appears right of the tab
> menubar instead of below. It only happens on the Main tab not on Find
> Finacial Account.
> 
> If I go to AP, the Main page is very odd looking with headings in
> wrong places compared to Bluelight.
> 
> This is with Firefox.
> 
> Regards Jens
>

Re: Default theme ?

Posted by Jens Oechsler <jf...@smart-ebizz.com>.

Hi Jacques.

When I open Accounting Manager in Bizznesstime theme, and choose
Finacial Account, the table List Bank Account appears right of the tab
menubar instead of below. It only happens on the Main tab not on Find
Finacial Account.

If I go to AP, the Main page is very odd looking with headings in
wrong places compared to Bluelight.

This is with Firefox.

Regards Jens

Re: Default theme ?

Posted by Ruth Hoffman <rh...@aesolves.com>.

Hi Jacques:
I just looked at the visual theme graphic/URL on trunk release 823826 so 
that I could refresh my understanding of the various themes: [ 
https://localhost:8443/catalog/control/LookupVisualThemes]

All my comments are based on this release using Firefox on a MAC:

1) This url [https://localhost:8443/catalog/control/LookupVisualThemes] 
does not layout correctly. While the graphics show up just fine, the 
columns aren't working correctly using the default Bizness theme. So, I 
will report this as an Jira issue later today.

2) Changing the font size helps, however there is a school of thought in 
the online content world that suggests that the most important content 
on a web page should be "above the fold", meaning that the user should 
not be required to scroll down the page to find important information. 
Lots of extra space between navigation links and form submit buttons is 
more of a distraction then a help in many cases. Another problem with 
this theme and zooming (changing the font size) with the browser is that 
in some cases, content overwrites the table boundary visual borders. 
Again, forcing the user to scroll to the right or left (assuming they 
know to do that) while trying to locate important information.

3) A big problem for me with this theme is that the navigation to 
webtools applications are hidden. The user is required to pull down the 
"Applications" link and then, close it, which, unless someone already 
knows what they were doing, is not an obvious action. A better approach, 
IMHO to this is to use hovering to expose the hidden links.

These do not seem to be issues with the "Flat Grey" and original/4.x 
theme/layout.

Regards,
Ruth
Jacques Le Roux wrote:
> Good, thank you Chris,
>
> Other persons ?
>
> Jacques
>
> From: "Chris Snow" <sn...@snowconsulting.co.uk>
>> I haven't found any bugs in Bizness theme, athough I haven't used it 
>> much...
>>
>> Jacques Le Roux wrote:
>>> From: "Chris Snow" <sn...@snowconsulting.co.uk>
>>>> Hi Ruth, have you tried using the browser zoom out function with 
>>>> Biziness theme? - it makes the Biziness theme much more usable.
>>>>
>>> Ruth Hoffman wrote:
>>>>> Hi Jacques:
>>>>> Now that I know how, I always revert to the "Flat Grey" theme. 
>>>>> While the graphic enhancements are nice on some of the other 
>>>>> themes, they take up too much space within the browser window. At 
>>>>> times, it is difficult to find navigation links etc.
>>>
>>> Yes I agree with Chris, I prefer also to zoom out when using Bizness 
>>> Time
>>> Actually lost of the time I revert to Flat Grey, even if I try to 
>>> push myself to use Bizness Time and Blue Light.
>>>
>>> Did you find specific bugs in Bizness Time, Chris ?
>>>
>>>>> Is there any way to revert the ecommerce site back to the one 
>>>>> product listing per line layout? Not sure if the 3x3 listing is a 
>>>>> result of a new theme or some other change.
>>>
>>> Right, there is still this issue (within others...) pending. No, 
>>> it's not a result of any theme. Maybe it's time to make a community 
>>> decision regarding this point too...
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>>
>>> Jacques
>>>
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>> Ruth
>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------
>>>>> Ruth Hoffman, Author, Mentor & OFBiz Enthusiast
>>>>> Ruth.Hoffman@myofbiz.com
>>>>> Looking for more OFBiz info, please visit my website: 
>>>>> http://www.myofbiz.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Jacques Le Roux wrote:
>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'd like to know what the community thinks about Bizness Time as 
>>>>>> default theme.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Do you use it?
>>>>>> Do you change for another theme ?
>>>>>> Which one fo you prefer?
>>>>>> Did you find bugs in one of the theme but not another?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Jacques
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>
>

Re: Default theme ?

Posted by Jacques Le Roux <ja...@les7arts.com>.

Thanks for the reminder Erwan!

Jacques

From: "Erwan de FERRIERES" <er...@nereide.biz>
> Le 22/11/2009 23:24, Jacques Le Roux a écrit :
>> Hi Erwan,
>>
>> Finally yes, why not opening a sub-task under
>> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/OFBIZ-2398 ?
>> At least it will be recorded...
> Hi Jacques,
>
> this issue you created is what I meant, so maybe it's not necessary to create a new one !
>
> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/OFBIZ-3042
>
> Cheers,
>
> -- 
> Erwan
>

Re: Default theme ?

Posted by Erwan de FERRIERES <er...@nereide.biz>.


Le 22/11/2009 23:24, Jacques Le Roux a écrit :
> Hi Erwan,
>
> Finally yes, why not opening a sub-task under
> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/OFBIZ-2398 ?
> At least it will be recorded...
Hi Jacques,

this issue you created is what I meant, so maybe it's not necessary to 
create a new one !

https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/OFBIZ-3042

Cheers,

-- 
Erwan

Re: Default theme ?

Posted by Jacques Le Roux <ja...@les7arts.com>.

Hi Erwan,

Finally yes, why not opening a sub-task under https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/OFBIZ-2398 ?
At least it will be recorded...

Jacques

From: "Jacques Le Roux" <ja...@les7arts.com>
> Thanks Erwan,
>
> I'd't not say that everyone is zooming out, for the moment very few persons seems concerned...
> So maybe we should better ask if people use Bizness Time mostly zoomed out ?
>
> Jacques
>
> From: "Erwan de FERRIERES" <er...@nereide.biz>
>> if everyone is zooming out the bizness theme, maybe we should thinking about reducing the font/etc... sizes.
>> Keeping the bizness time provide a more modern interface than the flat grey, and may be more attractive to new users.
>> But I'm also part of the ones who switch to bluelight or flatgrey...
>>
>> Le 12/10/2009 17:59, Jacques Le Roux a écrit :
>> ../..
>>>
>>>
>>
>> -- 
>> Erwan
>>
>
>

Re: Default theme ?

Posted by Jacques Le Roux <ja...@les7arts.com>.

Thanks Erwan,

I'd't not say that everyone is zooming out, for the moment very few persons seems concerned...
So maybe we should better ask if people use Bizness Time mostly zoomed out ?

Jacques

From: "Erwan de FERRIERES" <er...@nereide.biz>
> if everyone is zooming out the bizness theme, maybe we should thinking about reducing the font/etc... sizes.
> Keeping the bizness time provide a more modern interface than the flat grey, and may be more attractive to new users.
> But I'm also part of the ones who switch to bluelight or flatgrey...
>
> Le 12/10/2009 17:59, Jacques Le Roux a écrit :
> ../..
>>
>>
>
> -- 
> Erwan
>

Re: Default theme ?

Posted by Erwan de FERRIERES <er...@nereide.biz>.

if everyone is zooming out the bizness theme, maybe we should thinking 
about reducing the font/etc... sizes.
Keeping the bizness time provide a more modern interface than the flat 
grey, and may be more attractive to new users.
But I'm also part of the ones who switch to bluelight or flatgrey...

Le 12/10/2009 17:59, Jacques Le Roux a écrit :
../..
>
>

-- 
Erwan

Re: Default theme ?

Posted by Jacques Le Roux <ja...@les7arts.com>.

Good, thank you Chris,

Other persons ?

Jacques

From: "Chris Snow" <sn...@snowconsulting.co.uk>
>I haven't found any bugs in Bizness theme, athough I haven't used it much...
> 
> Jacques Le Roux wrote:
>> From: "Chris Snow" <sn...@snowconsulting.co.uk>
>>> Hi Ruth, have you tried using the browser zoom out function with 
>>> Biziness theme? - it makes the Biziness theme much more usable.
>>>
>> Ruth Hoffman wrote:
>>>> Hi Jacques:
>>>> Now that I know how, I always revert to the "Flat Grey" theme. While 
>>>> the graphic enhancements are nice on some of the other themes, they 
>>>> take up too much space within the browser window. At times, it is 
>>>> difficult to find navigation links etc.
>>
>> Yes I agree with Chris, I prefer also to zoom out when using Bizness Time
>> Actually lost of the time I revert to Flat Grey, even if I try to push 
>> myself to use Bizness Time and Blue Light.
>>
>> Did you find specific bugs in Bizness Time, Chris ?
>>
>>>> Is there any way to revert the ecommerce site back to the one 
>>>> product listing per line layout? Not sure if the 3x3 listing is a 
>>>> result of a new theme or some other change.
>>
>> Right, there is still this issue (within others...) pending. No, it's 
>> not a result of any theme. Maybe it's time to make a community 
>> decision regarding this point too...
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> Jacques
>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Ruth
>>>> ----------------------------------------------------
>>>> Ruth Hoffman, Author, Mentor & OFBiz Enthusiast
>>>> Ruth.Hoffman@myofbiz.com
>>>> Looking for more OFBiz info, please visit my website: 
>>>> http://www.myofbiz.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Jacques Le Roux wrote:
>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>
>>>>> I'd like to know what the community thinks about Bizness Time as 
>>>>> default theme.
>>>>>
>>>>> Do you use it?
>>>>> Do you change for another theme ?
>>>>> Which one fo you prefer?
>>>>> Did you find bugs in one of the theme but not another?
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks
>>>>>
>>>>> Jacques
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>

Re: Default theme ?

Posted by Chris Snow <sn...@snowconsulting.co.uk>.

I haven't found any bugs in Bizness theme, athough I haven't used it much...

Jacques Le Roux wrote:
> From: "Chris Snow" <sn...@snowconsulting.co.uk>
>> Hi Ruth, have you tried using the browser zoom out function with 
>> Biziness theme? - it makes the Biziness theme much more usable.
>>
> Ruth Hoffman wrote:
>>> Hi Jacques:
>>> Now that I know how, I always revert to the "Flat Grey" theme. While 
>>> the graphic enhancements are nice on some of the other themes, they 
>>> take up too much space within the browser window. At times, it is 
>>> difficult to find navigation links etc.
>
> Yes I agree with Chris, I prefer also to zoom out when using Bizness Time
> Actually lost of the time I revert to Flat Grey, even if I try to push 
> myself to use Bizness Time and Blue Light.
>
> Did you find specific bugs in Bizness Time, Chris ?
>
>>> Is there any way to revert the ecommerce site back to the one 
>>> product listing per line layout? Not sure if the 3x3 listing is a 
>>> result of a new theme or some other change.
>
> Right, there is still this issue (within others...) pending. No, it's 
> not a result of any theme. Maybe it's time to make a community 
> decision regarding this point too...
>
> Thanks
>
> Jacques
>
>>> Regards,
>>> Ruth
>>> ----------------------------------------------------
>>> Ruth Hoffman, Author, Mentor & OFBiz Enthusiast
>>> Ruth.Hoffman@myofbiz.com
>>> Looking for more OFBiz info, please visit my website: 
>>> http://www.myofbiz.com
>>>
>>>
>>> Jacques Le Roux wrote:
>>>> Hi,
>>>>
>>>> I'd like to know what the community thinks about Bizness Time as 
>>>> default theme.
>>>>
>>>> Do you use it?
>>>> Do you change for another theme ?
>>>> Which one fo you prefer?
>>>> Did you find bugs in one of the theme but not another?
>>>>
>>>> Thanks
>>>>
>>>> Jacques
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>

Re: Default theme ?

Posted by Jacques Le Roux <ja...@les7arts.com>.

From: "Chris Snow" <sn...@snowconsulting.co.uk>
> Hi Ruth, have you tried using the browser zoom out function with 
> Biziness theme? - it makes the Biziness theme much more usable.
> 
 Ruth Hoffman wrote:
>> Hi Jacques:
>> Now that I know how, I always revert to the "Flat Grey" theme. While 
>> the graphic enhancements are nice on some of the other themes, they 
>> take up too much space within the browser window. At times, it is 
>> difficult to find navigation links etc.

Yes I agree with Chris, I prefer also to zoom out when using Bizness Time
Actually lost of the time I revert to Flat Grey, even if I try to push myself to use Bizness Time and Blue Light.

Did you find specific bugs in Bizness Time, Chris ?

>> Is there any way to revert the ecommerce site back to the one product 
>> listing per line layout? Not sure if the 3x3 listing is a result of a 
>> new theme or some other change.

Right, there is still this issue (within others...) pending. No, it's not a result of any theme. 
Maybe it's time to make a community decision regarding this point too...

Thanks

Jacques

>> Regards,
>> Ruth
>> ----------------------------------------------------
>> Ruth Hoffman, Author, Mentor & OFBiz Enthusiast
>> Ruth.Hoffman@myofbiz.com
>> Looking for more OFBiz info, please visit my website: 
>> http://www.myofbiz.com
>>
>>
>> Jacques Le Roux wrote:
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> I'd like to know what the community thinks about Bizness Time as 
>>> default theme.
>>>
>>> Do you use it?
>>> Do you change for another theme ?
>>> Which one fo you prefer?
>>> Did you find bugs in one of the theme but not another?
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>>
>>> Jacques
>>>
>>>
>>
>

Re: Default theme ?

Posted by Ruth Hoffman <rh...@aesolves.com>.

Hi Chris:
Not recently. I will give it a try later.
Regards,
Ruth

Chris Snow wrote:
> Hi Ruth, have you tried using the browser zoom out function with 
> Biziness theme? - it makes the Biziness theme much more usable.
>
> Ruth Hoffman wrote:
>> Hi Jacques:
>> Now that I know how, I always revert to the "Flat Grey" theme. While 
>> the graphic enhancements are nice on some of the other themes, they 
>> take up too much space within the browser window. At times, it is 
>> difficult to find navigation links etc.
>>
>> Is there any way to revert the ecommerce site back to the one product 
>> listing per line layout? Not sure if the 3x3 listing is a result of a 
>> new theme or some other change.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Ruth
>> ----------------------------------------------------
>> Ruth Hoffman, Author, Mentor & OFBiz Enthusiast
>> Ruth.Hoffman@myofbiz.com
>> Looking for more OFBiz info, please visit my website: 
>> http://www.myofbiz.com
>>
>>
>> Jacques Le Roux wrote:
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> I'd like to know what the community thinks about Bizness Time as 
>>> default theme.
>>>
>>> Do you use it?
>>> Do you change for another theme ?
>>> Which one fo you prefer?
>>> Did you find bugs in one of the theme but not another?
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>>
>>> Jacques
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>

Re: Default theme ?

Posted by Chris Snow <sn...@snowconsulting.co.uk>.

Hi Ruth, have you tried using the browser zoom out function with 
Biziness theme? - it makes the Biziness theme much more usable.

Ruth Hoffman wrote:
> Hi Jacques:
> Now that I know how, I always revert to the "Flat Grey" theme. While 
> the graphic enhancements are nice on some of the other themes, they 
> take up too much space within the browser window. At times, it is 
> difficult to find navigation links etc.
>
> Is there any way to revert the ecommerce site back to the one product 
> listing per line layout? Not sure if the 3x3 listing is a result of a 
> new theme or some other change.
>
> Regards,
> Ruth
> ----------------------------------------------------
> Ruth Hoffman, Author, Mentor & OFBiz Enthusiast
> Ruth.Hoffman@myofbiz.com
> Looking for more OFBiz info, please visit my website: 
> http://www.myofbiz.com
>
>
> Jacques Le Roux wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> I'd like to know what the community thinks about Bizness Time as 
>> default theme.
>>
>> Do you use it?
>> Do you change for another theme ?
>> Which one fo you prefer?
>> Did you find bugs in one of the theme but not another?
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> Jacques
>>
>>
>

Re: Default theme ?

Posted by Ruth Hoffman <rh...@aesolves.com>.

Hi Jacques:
Now that I know how, I always revert to the "Flat Grey" theme. While the 
graphic enhancements are nice on some of the other themes, they take up 
too much space within the browser window. At times, it is difficult to 
find navigation links etc.

Is there any way to revert the ecommerce site back to the one product 
listing per line layout? Not sure if the 3x3 listing is a result of a 
new theme or some other change.

Regards,
Ruth
----------------------------------------------------
Ruth Hoffman, Author, Mentor & OFBiz Enthusiast
Ruth.Hoffman@myofbiz.com
Looking for more OFBiz info, please visit my website: http://www.myofbiz.com

Jacques Le Roux wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I'd like to know what the community thinks about Bizness Time as 
> default theme.
>
> Do you use it?
> Do you change for another theme ?
> Which one fo you prefer?
> Did you find bugs in one of the theme but not another?
>
> Thanks
>
> Jacques
>
>

Re: Default theme ?

Posted by Chris Snow <sn...@snowconsulting.co.uk>.

Hi Jacques,

I find bizness time theme to be a bit too vertically spread out and the 
font is generally too big, so I always switch back to Flat Grey as it is 
more condensed.

I find this helps a bit with Bizness time:

From

   th, td {
   color:#555555;
   padding:0.25em 0.5em;
   }

To

   th, td {
   color:#555555;
   padding:0 0.2em;
   }

Also, zooming out the browser helps too.

Cheers,

Chris

Jacques Le Roux wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I'd like to know what the community thinks about Bizness Time as 
> default theme.
>
> Do you use it?
> Do you change for another theme ?
> Which one fo you prefer?
> Did you find bugs in one of the theme but not another?
>
> Thanks
>
> Jacques
>

Re: Default theme ?

Posted by Bruno Busco <br...@gmail.com>.

Thank you,
Christian for this whisper in the storm.
;-)

-Bruno


2009/10/13 Christian Geisert <ch...@isu-gmbh.de>:
> Bruno Busco schrieb:
>
> [..]
>
>> I do not see many users using bluelight but I do not see anybody
>> expressing any defect of it.
>
> Switching to the Bluelight theme is the first thing I do ;-)
>
> Christian
>

Re: Default theme ?

Posted by Christian Geisert <ch...@isu-gmbh.de>.

Bruno Busco schrieb:

[..]

> I do not see many users using bluelight but I do not see anybody
> expressing any defect of it.

Switching to the Bluelight theme is the first thing I do ;-)

Christian

Re: Default theme ?

Posted by Ruth Hoffman <rh...@aesolves.com>.

Hi Bruno:
A while back I used the Bluelight theme and I would have to agree with 
you, from the point of view of screen usage, it does a better job with 
space management. The biggest issue with this theme for me was figuring 
out where the application links were (hidden somewhere - I don't 
remember now where that was.) Anyhow, for a new end-user without 
Webtools experience, this could be a show stopper.

Regards,
Ruth

Bruno Busco wrote:
> I normally use the Bluelight theme.
>
> In this theme what I did try to achieve was a better use of the screen
> space and, actually, if you compare to FlatGrey the information are
> displayed higher in the screen so more information are shown with no
> scrolling.
>
> The Login name, default organizzation, Visual theme selection etc. are
> displayed on a single line resulting in a shorter header.
>
> The Application Tab is not shown and a drop down menu can be used to select it.
> The selected application name, the selected tab and the screen name
> are all shown on a single line (the one with the blue/white smoothed
> corner bar)
>
> I plan to add a class style to the H1 page titles so that the
> bluelight theme can hide it having even more room available.
>
> I do not see many users using bluelight but I do not see anybody
> expressing any defect of it.
>
> Any hint to improve it is well appreciated.
> -Bruno
>
>
> 2009/10/13 Jacques Le Roux <ja...@les7arts.com>:
>   
>> Hi Hans,
>>
>> So far,
>> * it seems that most people find things too large and prefer to zoom out.
>> * it seems also that not much specific bugs were reported, and those
>> reported should be easily fixed (not quite sure though...)
>>
>> I repeat myself about where to report about this subject : create a subtask
>> at https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/OFBIZ-2398
>>
>> In his 1st reply Chris Snow suggested a change. But I'm not sure it's enough
>> for doing the same thing as a zoom out
>> Maybe we could ask Ryan Foster if it's possble to shrink the size (of
>> everything ) else we may vote for the "return of Flat Grey" as default
>> theme.
>>
>> What do you people think ?
>>
>> Jacques
>> PS : Hans I saw you opened a subtask for the field size issue, thanks!
>>
>> From: "Hans Bakker" <ma...@antwebsystems.com>
>>     
>>> Sure the Business theme looks good but.....
>>>
>>> The general problem is that the characters, fields and actually
>>> everything is far too big....If i specify a field to be 2 characters, at
>>> least 5 fit in....
>>>
>>> So set the default to flat_gray in general properties is perhaps better.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Hans
>>>
>>> On Mon, 2009-10-12 at 16:19 +0200, Jacques Le Roux wrote:
>>>       
>>>> Hi,
>>>>
>>>> I'd like to know what the community thinks about Bizness Time as default
>>>> theme.
>>>>
>>>> Do you use it?
>>>> Do you change for another theme ?
>>>> Which one fo you prefer?
>>>> Did you find bugs in one of the theme but not another?
>>>>
>>>> Thanks
>>>>
>>>> Jacques
>>>>
>>>>         
>>> --
>>> Antwebsystems.com: Quality OFBiz services for competitive rates
>>>
>>>       
>>
>>     
>
>

Re: Default theme ?

Posted by Bruno Busco <br...@gmail.com>.

I normally use the Bluelight theme.

In this theme what I did try to achieve was a better use of the screen
space and, actually, if you compare to FlatGrey the information are
displayed higher in the screen so more information are shown with no
scrolling.

The Login name, default organizzation, Visual theme selection etc. are
displayed on a single line resulting in a shorter header.

The Application Tab is not shown and a drop down menu can be used to select it.
The selected application name, the selected tab and the screen name
are all shown on a single line (the one with the blue/white smoothed
corner bar)

I plan to add a class style to the H1 page titles so that the
bluelight theme can hide it having even more room available.

I do not see many users using bluelight but I do not see anybody
expressing any defect of it.

Any hint to improve it is well appreciated.
-Bruno

2009/10/13 Jacques Le Roux <ja...@les7arts.com>:
> Hi Hans,
>
> So far,
> * it seems that most people find things too large and prefer to zoom out.
> * it seems also that not much specific bugs were reported, and those
> reported should be easily fixed (not quite sure though...)
>
> I repeat myself about where to report about this subject : create a subtask
> at https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/OFBIZ-2398
>
> In his 1st reply Chris Snow suggested a change. But I'm not sure it's enough
> for doing the same thing as a zoom out
> Maybe we could ask Ryan Foster if it's possble to shrink the size (of
> everything ) else we may vote for the "return of Flat Grey" as default
> theme.
>
> What do you people think ?
>
> Jacques
> PS : Hans I saw you opened a subtask for the field size issue, thanks!
>
> From: "Hans Bakker" <ma...@antwebsystems.com>
>>
>> Sure the Business theme looks good but.....
>>
>> The general problem is that the characters, fields and actually
>> everything is far too big....If i specify a field to be 2 characters, at
>> least 5 fit in....
>>
>> So set the default to flat_gray in general properties is perhaps better.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Hans
>>
>> On Mon, 2009-10-12 at 16:19 +0200, Jacques Le Roux wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> I'd like to know what the community thinks about Bizness Time as default
>>> theme.
>>>
>>> Do you use it?
>>> Do you change for another theme ?
>>> Which one fo you prefer?
>>> Did you find bugs in one of the theme but not another?
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>>
>>> Jacques
>>>
>> --
>> Antwebsystems.com: Quality OFBiz services for competitive rates
>>
>
>
>

Re: Default theme ?

Posted by Tim Ruppert <ti...@hotwaxmedia.com>.

If you have changes to the theme - submit them or fix them.  This  
theme has been tested and is in fact used by many people that we work  
with.  We do not have all of the problems you mentioned.  There's NO  
reason to start with Flat Grey - use the current theme - with the  
current design and fix the issues.

It wasn't crap when it was put forward, it was tested and used - so  
please your best to not insult others as well :)  Read Foster's email  
for where and why we did what we did and go from there.  I'm at least  
as interested as everyone in the community at fixing all of the crap  
in OFBiz - as evidenced by the amazing amount of investment in time  
and money that's been made by our company.

Cheers,
Ruppert
--
Tim Ruppert
HotWax Media
http://www.hotwaxmedia.com

o:801.649.6594
f:801.649.6595

On Oct 13, 2009, at 9:46 AM, Ruth Hoffman wrote:

> Hi Tim:
> This will probably start a "flame war" (if those things still  
> happen :-), but again this is all for what I feel is the betterment  
> of the project. Please see my comments inline:
>
> Tim Ruppert wrote:
>> Inline
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Ruppert
>>
>> On Oct 13, 2009, at 8:09 AM, Ruth Hoffman wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Tim:
>>> I fully understand your point of view and the constraints we all  
>>> labor under. Whether the old theme sucks or not is not in question  
>>> here.
>>>
>>> First question I have for you is what "guidelines" are you  
>>> referring to?
>>
>> Take a look at BizznessTime and then at Flat Grey and let me know  
>> when you think each were designed from a look and feel  
>> perspective?  That's the point here - first impressions of whether  
>> or not this project is stale or not.  This is why it was developed  
>> and it can have a huge impact on the people that see it for the  
>> first time.  Not to mention that as I said, my customers have  
>> custom themes built on BizznessTime and are happy with them ...
>>
> You didn't answer my question. What guidelines?
> I'm not disputing that your customers have nice themes. You, or your  
> company probably built them. Good for you! As a service provider,  
> this attitude towards the code base works in your favor. As an end- 
> user, maybe this approach towards the project code base doesn't work  
> so well. Please reconsider.

Right, I'm trying to keep the code base crappy so I have to explain to  
more and more people how we could fix it for them.  That makes no sense.

>>> Secondly, why should a new user have to change a theme in order to  
>>> use OFBiz applications. If, as you say its easy to change a theme,  
>>> then it should be incumbent on the knowledgeable experienced OFBiz  
>>> user to change themes and not the new user. New users have enough  
>>> on their plate just learning how the applications work.
>>
>> I'm talking about demo.ofbiz.org having a current looking theme so  
>> that when people want to see the application for the first time,  
>> they're not asking if we started with the backend design in 2001  
>> and then forgot to update it :)  If you guys want that to be a  
>> deployment setting for the demo store - I'm happy to do it that way  
>> - let's just not act like the old theme is what is making OFBiz  
>> happen.
>>
> So am I. Lets talk about the demo site. On a recent visit (2 days  
> ago) what I saw was embarrassing and hence my comment about pride of  
> ownership.
>
> I'd like to "call you to the carpet" on making "OFBiz happen". How  
> many new user's to OFBiz (I'm talking end-users) have been  
> "convinced" to adopt based on theme changes? Do you even know? If  
> you can show me the numbers, then I will gladly change my tune.

No numbers - but from a sales perspective it's been MUCH better  
received by all new people.  Keep in mind, I'm not talking about  
techies - I'm talking about business people who will eventually use  
the applications.

>>> Thirdly, please don't throw around "its easy" to do something  
>>> without siting references. You insult my intelligence and every  
>>> other reader on this list by implying that anything concerning  
>>> recent releases of OFBiz is "easy".
>>
>> Please Ruth - come on.  If you're not sure where the themes are,  
>> then please use a browser tool to tell you where the CSS is that  
>> drives the theme and tinker with it.  If I had the references for  
>> you in my hands - I'll lay them out like a towel - but since I  
>> didn't, I declined to send you to the wrong place.  Me and the  
>> other readers (and my employees) dove in on the theme concept and  
>> tried our best to come up with something quickly that would make an  
>> impact in the release.  I think we accomplished that in a big way.   
>> If it's not good, then please help to make it better rather than  
>> turning back to something that's not pushing forward (on the design  
>> front).
>>
> Tim, we are not talking about me. I know how to do this. I've spent  
> several years working with all aspects of OFBiz from the front-end  
> CSS to writing modifications to the Entity Engine to support  
> database field types not supported by OFBiz. I'm talking about new  
> users.

Well that's great- wasn't sure by your message.

> I have tried to "make it better" by submitting JIRA issues.
> How about if we start over with a design document and a baseline  
> that we know works - perhaps the Flat Grey theme, and go forward  
> from there. Give me developer/access rights to the code base and I'd  
> gladly help out.

Feel free to start that process, but I insist that you start from the  
new standard - not the old one.

>> I'd much rather see these kinks worked out - since we're only  
>> talking about CSS - not the magic of the screen widget / form  
>> widget, etc.  In this case, "easy" means that any web developer in  
>> the world that does "Inspect Element" on Safari or anything else -  
>> will be able to see where the CSS is - since that's 99% of how  
>> these themes are messed with in the first place.
>>
> I agree with you here concerning working out the kinks. Where we  
> diverge is: I don't think it is up to end-users to do testing for  
> the project. Don't commit code (themes or otherwise) that has not  
> been tested. Don't make changes to OFBiz until those changes have  
> been tested. Its pretty simple.

Are you insinuating that we do this?  I certainly hope not.

> Again, end-users have enough on their plate just learning the  
> applications. And, perhaps more importantly, end-user's for the  
> backend applications are not the same web developers you reference  
> here.
>
> You obviously see all this from a service provider's point of view  
> and not an end-user. Please understand, I don't provide OFBiz  
> development, deployment or integration services. I am an advocate  
> for end-users. IMO, if we don't get more end-users looking at OFBiz,  
> you might as well kiss this project good-bye.

We can agree on that front for sure.  I see this from an adoption  
standpoint - and that old 1990's theme ain't getting anyone off the  
mat to use OFBiz - I can promise you that.

> Its all about mindshare, and while OFBiz has been good to you and  
> HotWax, your attitude is very similar to the "proprietary" mindset  
> of some software vendors that shall remain unnamed.
>
> Please take off your service provider hat and look at all this from  
> a potential new end-user.

Please put on your I'll dive in and fix these minor issues - instead  
of sitting back and being a purist.  That's what we do and I hope to  
see you do the same.  What you're doing on the end user spectrum will  
undoubtedly be a big help, but just sitting back or rolling back  
doesn't get the issues resolved.  Thanks for submitting bugs - they're  
all over the system and we're in there fixing them daily ....

>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Ruth
>>>
>>> ----------------------------------------------------
>>> Ruth Hoffman, Author, Mentor & OFBiz Enthusiast
>>> Ruth.Hoffman@myofbiz.com
>>> Looking for more OFBiz info, please visit my website: http://www.myofbiz.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Tim Ruppert wrote:
>>>> We are all working within the constraints of _not_ redesigning  
>>>> the entire set of backend applications - which is really what  
>>>> needs to be done. The old theme sucks visually - has no spice,  
>>>> doesn't fit today's look and feel guidelines AT ALL, looks really  
>>>> old - so I'd say from someone who does this day in and day out -  
>>>> you're WAY off when it comes to the way that people react to it  
>>>> (be clear, this does not talk to using it on a day to day  
>>>> basis).  We've been very successful in building themes off of  
>>>> Bizzness Time - please are reacting in a really positive way.
>>>>
>>>> There is nothing other than a visual change on the BizznessTime  
>>>> theme.  There are no other extra widgets or the like.  it's just  
>>>> a reorganization of the data that's there to help give it a  
>>>> facelift.  I'm not talking to users - I'm talking to you and  
>>>> everyone else who has issues with it.  Fix it ... or go back to  
>>>> the old theme in your own setup - don't doom the rest of us to  
>>>> have to go apply first impressions with that really lame setup.
>>>>
>>>> As for the documentation - I'm not sure - checkout Confluence -  
>>>> we just dug in and tried to bring the backend apps out of the  
>>>> early 2000s instead of letting it sit stagnant.
>>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> Ruppert
>>>> -- 
>>>> Tim Ruppert
>>>> HotWax Media
>>>> http://www.hotwaxmedia.com
>>>>
>>>> o:801.649.6594
>>>> f:801.649.6595
>>>>
>>>> On Oct 13, 2009, at 7:10 AM, Ruth Hoffman wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hello Tim:
>>>>> If this a tool for convincing people to use OFBiz, then IMO, we  
>>>>> are way off the mark. The backend applications where the  
>>>>> BiznessTime theme has been applied are designed for end-users  
>>>>> who may not and probably do not have any experience with HTML or  
>>>>> CSS. Lets not forget who our audience is here.
>>>>>
>>>>> If the foundation, as you say is so solid (and I have not doubt  
>>>>> that it is), then reverting back to a simpler yet more  
>>>>> accessible theme should be the way to go.  Fancier is not always  
>>>>> better.
>>>>>
>>>>> On another note, could you point me to the end-user  
>>>>> documentation covering  creating new themes. I'd be happy to try  
>>>>> this out and post my findings.
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>> Ruth
>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------
>>>>> Ruth Hoffman, Author, Mentor & OFBiz Enthusiast
>>>>> Ruth.Hoffman@myofbiz.com
>>>>> Looking for more OFBiz info, please visit my website: http://www.myofbiz.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Tim Ruppert wrote:
>>>>>> We exclusively use the BizznessTime theme with clients because  
>>>>>> it's WAY easier to change, skin and adapt to everyone's  
>>>>>> liking / look and feel.  I think it would be a huge mistake to  
>>>>>> roll it back to the Flat Grey as we have not had any of the  
>>>>>> same problems once everyone gets over the initial shock of  
>>>>>> seeing something different.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If the community wants to roll it back - then go for it - but  
>>>>>> it isn't wise.  FIX the problems that you don't like in the  
>>>>>> BizznessTime theme, or create one of your own - it's easy to do  
>>>>>> - this is a much more solid foundation to build on then the old  
>>>>>> (and looking really old) theme that's been in there since the  
>>>>>> beginning.  Have any of you tried to edit the CSS to make any  
>>>>>> changes that might not make it so "large"?  It should be pretty  
>>>>>> easy with this setup.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Anyways, think on it and do what you will do, but remember this  
>>>>>> is still a tool for convincing people to use OFBiz.  I'd leave  
>>>>>> this in place and change it to the ugly, ugly in your own  
>>>>>> installations before I wanted to go back to Flay Grey as a  
>>>>>> sales tool ....
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>> Ruppert
>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>> Tim Ruppert
>>>>>> HotWax Media
>>>>>> http://www.hotwaxmedia.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>> o:801.649.6594
>>>>>> f:801.649.6595
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Oct 13, 2009, at 3:40 AM, Jacques Le Roux wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi Hans,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So far,
>>>>>>> * it seems that most people find things too large and prefer  
>>>>>>> to zoom out.
>>>>>>> * it seems also that not much specific bugs were reported, and  
>>>>>>> those reported should be easily fixed (not quite sure though...)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I repeat myself about where to report about this subject :  
>>>>>>> create a subtask at https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/OFBIZ-2398
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In his 1st reply Chris Snow suggested a change. But I'm not  
>>>>>>> sure it's enough for doing the same thing as a zoom out
>>>>>>> Maybe we could ask Ryan Foster if it's possble to shrink the  
>>>>>>> size (of everything ) else we may vote for the "return of Flat  
>>>>>>> Grey" as default
>>>>>>> theme.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What do you people think ?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Jacques
>>>>>>> PS : Hans I saw you opened a subtask for the field size issue,  
>>>>>>> thanks!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> From: "Hans Bakker" <mailinglist@antwebsystems.com <mailto:mailinglist@antwebsystems.com 
>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>> Sure the Business theme looks good but.....
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The general problem is that the characters, fields and actually
>>>>>>>> everything is far too big....If i specify a field to be 2  
>>>>>>>> characters, at
>>>>>>>> least 5 fit in....
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> So set the default to flat_gray in general properties is  
>>>>>>>> perhaps better.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>> Hans
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Mon, 2009-10-12 at 16:19 +0200, Jacques Le Roux wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I'd like to know what the community thinks about Bizness  
>>>>>>>>> Time as default theme.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Do you use it?
>>>>>>>>> Do you change for another theme ?
>>>>>>>>> Which one fo you prefer?
>>>>>>>>> Did you find bugs in one of the theme but not another?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Thanks
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Jacques
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>>>> Antwebsystems.com <http://Antwebsystems.com>: Quality OFBiz  
>>>>>>>> services for competitive rates
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>

Re: Default theme ?

Posted by BJ Freeman <bj...@free-man.net>.

This seems a lot to-do about nothing, reference, the default, since if
someone wants to demo the demo site they can change the theme.

also I think it is mute since so many use the Site and change things
when someone else is on they change languages and themes, that it would
be theme wars on the Demo site, for all practical purposes.

The valid discussion, to me, is the architectures of the themes, not a
specific theme, since anyone can create a theme and submit it for inclusion.

What themes can support and not support is valuable for those that want
to create themes.

I would like to see, general support that looks at the browser functions
to determine what to present. Like does support javascript if not then
server up a basic page. So there would always be a basic text page
template for the browser where the user has turned off features

Also Themes that address Color blind people and Those of us that have
trouble with fonts.
The last one really takes on a new dimensions, since have we already
found out, some translation cause justification problems

My view of current themes is they show what can be done and are good
learning tools.



Tim Ruppert sent the following on 10/13/2009 9:44 AM:
> If you have changes to the theme - submit them or fix them.  This theme
> has been tested and is in fact used by many people that we work with. 
> We do not have all of the problems you mentioned.  There's NO reason to
> start with Flat Grey - use the current theme - with the current design
> and fix the issues.
> 
> It wasn't crap when it was put forward, it was tested and used - so
> please your best to not insult others as well :)  Read Foster's email
> for where and why we did what we did and go from there.  I'm at least as
> interested as everyone in the community at fixing all of the crap in
> OFBiz - as evidenced by the amazing amount of investment in time and
> money that's been made by our company.
> 
> Cheers,
> Ruppert
> -- 
> Tim Ruppert
> HotWax Media
> http://www.hotwaxmedia.com
> 
> o:801.649.6594
> f:801.649.6595
> 
> On Oct 13, 2009, at 9:46 AM, Ruth Hoffman wrote:
> 
>> Hi Tim:
>> This will probably start a "flame war" (if those things still happen
>> :-), but again this is all for what I feel is the betterment of the
>> project. Please see my comments inline:
>>
>> Tim Ruppert wrote:
>>> Inline
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> Ruppert
>>>
>>> On Oct 13, 2009, at 8:09 AM, Ruth Hoffman wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi Tim:
>>>> I fully understand your point of view and the constraints we all
>>>> labor under. Whether the old theme sucks or not is not in question
>>>> here.
>>>>
>>>> First question I have for you is what "guidelines" are you referring
>>>> to?
>>>
>>> Take a look at BizznessTime and then at Flat Grey and let me know
>>> when you think each were designed from a look and feel perspective? 
>>> That's the point here - first impressions of whether or not this
>>> project is stale or not.  This is why it was developed and it can
>>> have a huge impact on the people that see it for the first time.  Not
>>> to mention that as I said, my customers have custom themes built on
>>> BizznessTime and are happy with them ...
>>>
>> You didn't answer my question. What guidelines?
>> I'm not disputing that your customers have nice themes. You, or your
>> company probably built them. Good for you! As a service provider, this
>> attitude towards the code base works in your favor. As an end-user,
>> maybe this approach towards the project code base doesn't work so
>> well. Please reconsider.
> 
> Right, I'm trying to keep the code base crappy so I have to explain to
> more and more people how we could fix it for them.  That makes no sense.
> 
>>>> Secondly, why should a new user have to change a theme in order to
>>>> use OFBiz applications. If, as you say its easy to change a theme,
>>>> then it should be incumbent on the knowledgeable experienced OFBiz
>>>> user to change themes and not the new user. New users have enough on
>>>> their plate just learning how the applications work.
>>>
>>> I'm talking about demo.ofbiz.org having a current looking theme so
>>> that when people want to see the application for the first time,
>>> they're not asking if we started with the backend design in 2001 and
>>> then forgot to update it :)  If you guys want that to be a deployment
>>> setting for the demo store - I'm happy to do it that way - let's just
>>> not act like the old theme is what is making OFBiz happen.
>>>
>> So am I. Lets talk about the demo site. On a recent visit (2 days ago)
>> what I saw was embarrassing and hence my comment about pride of
>> ownership.
>>
>> I'd like to "call you to the carpet" on making "OFBiz happen". How
>> many new user's to OFBiz (I'm talking end-users) have been "convinced"
>> to adopt based on theme changes? Do you even know? If you can show me
>> the numbers, then I will gladly change my tune.
> 
> No numbers - but from a sales perspective it's been MUCH better received
> by all new people.  Keep in mind, I'm not talking about techies - I'm
> talking about business people who will eventually use the applications.
> 
>>>> Thirdly, please don't throw around "its easy" to do something
>>>> without siting references. You insult my intelligence and every
>>>> other reader on this list by implying that anything concerning
>>>> recent releases of OFBiz is "easy".
>>>
>>> Please Ruth - come on.  If you're not sure where the themes are, then
>>> please use a browser tool to tell you where the CSS is that drives
>>> the theme and tinker with it.  If I had the references for you in my
>>> hands - I'll lay them out like a towel - but since I didn't, I
>>> declined to send you to the wrong place.  Me and the other readers
>>> (and my employees) dove in on the theme concept and tried our best to
>>> come up with something quickly that would make an impact in the
>>> release.  I think we accomplished that in a big way.  If it's not
>>> good, then please help to make it better rather than turning back to
>>> something that's not pushing forward (on the design front).
>>>
>> Tim, we are not talking about me. I know how to do this. I've spent
>> several years working with all aspects of OFBiz from the front-end CSS
>> to writing modifications to the Entity Engine to support database
>> field types not supported by OFBiz. I'm talking about new users.
> 
> Well that's great- wasn't sure by your message.
> 
>> I have tried to "make it better" by submitting JIRA issues.
>> How about if we start over with a design document and a baseline that
>> we know works - perhaps the Flat Grey theme, and go forward from
>> there. Give me developer/access rights to the code base and I'd gladly
>> help out.
> 
> Feel free to start that process, but I insist that you start from the
> new standard - not the old one.
> 
>>> I'd much rather see these kinks worked out - since we're only talking
>>> about CSS - not the magic of the screen widget / form widget, etc. 
>>> In this case, "easy" means that any web developer in the world that
>>> does "Inspect Element" on Safari or anything else - will be able to
>>> see where the CSS is - since that's 99% of how these themes are
>>> messed with in the first place.
>>>
>> I agree with you here concerning working out the kinks. Where we
>> diverge is: I don't think it is up to end-users to do testing for the
>> project. Don't commit code (themes or otherwise) that has not been
>> tested. Don't make changes to OFBiz until those changes have been
>> tested. Its pretty simple.
> 
> Are you insinuating that we do this?  I certainly hope not.
> 
>> Again, end-users have enough on their plate just learning the
>> applications. And, perhaps more importantly, end-user's for the
>> backend applications are not the same web developers you reference here.
>>
>> You obviously see all this from a service provider's point of view and
>> not an end-user. Please understand, I don't provide OFBiz development,
>> deployment or integration services. I am an advocate for end-users.
>> IMO, if we don't get more end-users looking at OFBiz, you might as
>> well kiss this project good-bye.
> 
> We can agree on that front for sure.  I see this from an adoption
> standpoint - and that old 1990's theme ain't getting anyone off the mat
> to use OFBiz - I can promise you that.
> 
>> Its all about mindshare, and while OFBiz has been good to you and
>> HotWax, your attitude is very similar to the "proprietary" mindset of
>> some software vendors that shall remain unnamed.
>>
>> Please take off your service provider hat and look at all this from a
>> potential new end-user.
> 
> Please put on your I'll dive in and fix these minor issues - instead of
> sitting back and being a purist.  That's what we do and I hope to see
> you do the same.  What you're doing on the end user spectrum will
> undoubtedly be a big help, but just sitting back or rolling back doesn't
> get the issues resolved.  Thanks for submitting bugs - they're all over
> the system and we're in there fixing them daily ....
> 
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Ruth
>>>>
>>>> ----------------------------------------------------
>>>> Ruth Hoffman, Author, Mentor & OFBiz Enthusiast
>>>> Ruth.Hoffman@myofbiz.com
>>>> Looking for more OFBiz info, please visit my website:
>>>> http://www.myofbiz.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Tim Ruppert wrote:
>>>>> We are all working within the constraints of _not_ redesigning the
>>>>> entire set of backend applications - which is really what needs to
>>>>> be done. The old theme sucks visually - has no spice, doesn't fit
>>>>> today's look and feel guidelines AT ALL, looks really old - so I'd
>>>>> say from someone who does this day in and day out - you're WAY off
>>>>> when it comes to the way that people react to it (be clear, this
>>>>> does not talk to using it on a day to day basis).  We've been very
>>>>> successful in building themes off of Bizzness Time - please are
>>>>> reacting in a really positive way.
>>>>>
>>>>> There is nothing other than a visual change on the BizznessTime
>>>>> theme.  There are no other extra widgets or the like.  it's just a
>>>>> reorganization of the data that's there to help give it a
>>>>> facelift.  I'm not talking to users - I'm talking to you and
>>>>> everyone else who has issues with it.  Fix it ... or go back to the
>>>>> old theme in your own setup - don't doom the rest of us to have to
>>>>> go apply first impressions with that really lame setup.
>>>>>
>>>>> As for the documentation - I'm not sure - checkout Confluence - we
>>>>> just dug in and tried to bring the backend apps out of the early
>>>>> 2000s instead of letting it sit stagnant.
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>> Ruppert
>>>>> -- 
>>>>> Tim Ruppert
>>>>> HotWax Media
>>>>> http://www.hotwaxmedia.com
>>>>>
>>>>> o:801.649.6594
>>>>> f:801.649.6595
>>>>>
>>>>> On Oct 13, 2009, at 7:10 AM, Ruth Hoffman wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hello Tim:
>>>>>> If this a tool for convincing people to use OFBiz, then IMO, we
>>>>>> are way off the mark. The backend applications where the
>>>>>> BiznessTime theme has been applied are designed for end-users who
>>>>>> may not and probably do not have any experience with HTML or CSS.
>>>>>> Lets not forget who our audience is here.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If the foundation, as you say is so solid (and I have not doubt
>>>>>> that it is), then reverting back to a simpler yet more accessible
>>>>>> theme should be the way to go.  Fancier is not always better.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On another note, could you point me to the end-user documentation
>>>>>> covering  creating new themes. I'd be happy to try this out and
>>>>>> post my findings.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>> Ruth
>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------
>>>>>> Ruth Hoffman, Author, Mentor & OFBiz Enthusiast
>>>>>> Ruth.Hoffman@myofbiz.com
>>>>>> Looking for more OFBiz info, please visit my website:
>>>>>> http://www.myofbiz.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Tim Ruppert wrote:
>>>>>>> We exclusively use the BizznessTime theme with clients because
>>>>>>> it's WAY easier to change, skin and adapt to everyone's liking /
>>>>>>> look and feel.  I think it would be a huge mistake to roll it
>>>>>>> back to the Flat Grey as we have not had any of the same problems
>>>>>>> once everyone gets over the initial shock of seeing something
>>>>>>> different.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If the community wants to roll it back - then go for it - but it
>>>>>>> isn't wise.  FIX the problems that you don't like in the
>>>>>>> BizznessTime theme, or create one of your own - it's easy to do -
>>>>>>> this is a much more solid foundation to build on then the old
>>>>>>> (and looking really old) theme that's been in there since the
>>>>>>> beginning.  Have any of you tried to edit the CSS to make any
>>>>>>> changes that might not make it so "large"?  It should be pretty
>>>>>>> easy with this setup.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Anyways, think on it and do what you will do, but remember this
>>>>>>> is still a tool for convincing people to use OFBiz.  I'd leave
>>>>>>> this in place and change it to the ugly, ugly in your own
>>>>>>> installations before I wanted to go back to Flay Grey as a sales
>>>>>>> tool ....
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>> Ruppert
>>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>>> Tim Ruppert
>>>>>>> HotWax Media
>>>>>>> http://www.hotwaxmedia.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> o:801.649.6594
>>>>>>> f:801.649.6595
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Oct 13, 2009, at 3:40 AM, Jacques Le Roux wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hi Hans,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> So far,
>>>>>>>> * it seems that most people find things too large and prefer to
>>>>>>>> zoom out.
>>>>>>>> * it seems also that not much specific bugs were reported, and
>>>>>>>> those reported should be easily fixed (not quite sure though...)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I repeat myself about where to report about this subject :
>>>>>>>> create a subtask at
>>>>>>>> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/OFBIZ-2398
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In his 1st reply Chris Snow suggested a change. But I'm not sure
>>>>>>>> it's enough for doing the same thing as a zoom out
>>>>>>>> Maybe we could ask Ryan Foster if it's possble to shrink the
>>>>>>>> size (of everything ) else we may vote for the "return of Flat
>>>>>>>> Grey" as default
>>>>>>>> theme.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> What do you people think ?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Jacques
>>>>>>>> PS : Hans I saw you opened a subtask for the field size issue,
>>>>>>>> thanks!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> From: "Hans Bakker" <mailinglist@antwebsystems.com
>>>>>>>> <ma...@antwebsystems.com>>
>>>>>>>>> Sure the Business theme looks good but.....
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The general problem is that the characters, fields and actually
>>>>>>>>> everything is far too big....If i specify a field to be 2
>>>>>>>>> characters, at
>>>>>>>>> least 5 fit in....
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> So set the default to flat_gray in general properties is
>>>>>>>>> perhaps better.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>>> Hans
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 2009-10-12 at 16:19 +0200, Jacques Le Roux wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I'd like to know what the community thinks about Bizness Time
>>>>>>>>>> as default theme.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Do you use it?
>>>>>>>>>> Do you change for another theme ?
>>>>>>>>>> Which one fo you prefer?
>>>>>>>>>> Did you find bugs in one of the theme but not another?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Thanks
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Jacques
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>>>>> Antwebsystems.com <http://Antwebsystems.com>: Quality OFBiz
>>>>>>>>> services for competitive rates
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
> 

-- 
BJ Freeman
http://www.businessesnetwork.com/automation
http://bjfreeman.elance.com
http://www.linkedin.com/profile?viewProfile=&key=1237480&locale=en_US&trk=tab_pro
Systems Integrator.

Re: Default theme ?

Posted by Tim Ruppert <ti...@hotwaxmedia.com>.

Yeah - we've got our own and in fact pay for the community ones as  
well.  Just want to put the best face forward for the project.  Not  
saying the themes are perfect, but let's start from current and mod  
from there.  That's at least my vote - one of many people voting.

Cheers,
Ruppert

On Oct 13, 2009, at 11:26 AM, BJ Freeman wrote:

> Forgot one point, if your a company you should be able to support you
> own demo site. Dedicated Servers these days cost about $100. Then you
> can have it any way you want.
>
> BJ Freeman sent the following on 10/13/2009 10:03 AM:
>> This seems a lot to-do about nothing, reference, the default, since  
>> if
>> someone wants to demo the demo site they can change the theme.
>>
>> also I think it is mute since so many use the Site and change things
>> when someone else is on they change languages and themes, that it  
>> would
>> be theme wars on the Demo site, for all practical purposes.
>>
>> The valid discussion, to me, is the architectures of the themes,  
>> not a
>> specific theme, since anyone can create a theme and submit it for  
>> inclusion.
>>
>> What themes can support and not support is valuable for those that  
>> want
>> to create themes.
>>
>> I would like to see, general support that looks at the browser  
>> functions
>> to determine what to present. Like does support javascript if not  
>> then
>> server up a basic page. So there would always be a basic text page
>> template for the browser where the user has turned off features
>>
>> Also Themes that address Color blind people and Those of us that have
>> trouble with fonts.
>> The last one really takes on a new dimensions, since have we already
>> found out, some translation cause justification problems
>>
>> My view of current themes is they show what can be done and are good
>> learning tools.
>>
>>
>>
>> Tim Ruppert sent the following on 10/13/2009 9:44 AM:
>>> If you have changes to the theme - submit them or fix them.  This  
>>> theme
>>> has been tested and is in fact used by many people that we work  
>>> with.
>>> We do not have all of the problems you mentioned.  There's NO  
>>> reason to
>>> start with Flat Grey - use the current theme - with the current  
>>> design
>>> and fix the issues.
>>>
>>> It wasn't crap when it was put forward, it was tested and used - so
>>> please your best to not insult others as well :)  Read Foster's  
>>> email
>>> for where and why we did what we did and go from there.  I'm at  
>>> least as
>>> interested as everyone in the community at fixing all of the crap in
>>> OFBiz - as evidenced by the amazing amount of investment in time and
>>> money that's been made by our company.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> Ruppert
>>> -- 
>>> Tim Ruppert
>>> HotWax Media
>>> http://www.hotwaxmedia.com
>>>
>>> o:801.649.6594
>>> f:801.649.6595
>>>
>>> On Oct 13, 2009, at 9:46 AM, Ruth Hoffman wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi Tim:
>>>> This will probably start a "flame war" (if those things still  
>>>> happen
>>>> :-), but again this is all for what I feel is the betterment of the
>>>> project. Please see my comments inline:
>>>>
>>>> Tim Ruppert wrote:
>>>>> Inline
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>> Ruppert
>>>>>
>>>>> On Oct 13, 2009, at 8:09 AM, Ruth Hoffman wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Tim:
>>>>>> I fully understand your point of view and the constraints we all
>>>>>> labor under. Whether the old theme sucks or not is not in  
>>>>>> question
>>>>>> here.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> First question I have for you is what "guidelines" are you  
>>>>>> referring
>>>>>> to?
>>>>> Take a look at BizznessTime and then at Flat Grey and let me know
>>>>> when you think each were designed from a look and feel  
>>>>> perspective?
>>>>> That's the point here - first impressions of whether or not this
>>>>> project is stale or not.  This is why it was developed and it can
>>>>> have a huge impact on the people that see it for the first  
>>>>> time.  Not
>>>>> to mention that as I said, my customers have custom themes built  
>>>>> on
>>>>> BizznessTime and are happy with them ...
>>>>>
>>>> You didn't answer my question. What guidelines?
>>>> I'm not disputing that your customers have nice themes. You, or  
>>>> your
>>>> company probably built them. Good for you! As a service provider,  
>>>> this
>>>> attitude towards the code base works in your favor. As an end-user,
>>>> maybe this approach towards the project code base doesn't work so
>>>> well. Please reconsider.
>>> Right, I'm trying to keep the code base crappy so I have to  
>>> explain to
>>> more and more people how we could fix it for them.  That makes no  
>>> sense.
>>>
>>>>>> Secondly, why should a new user have to change a theme in order  
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> use OFBiz applications. If, as you say its easy to change a  
>>>>>> theme,
>>>>>> then it should be incumbent on the knowledgeable experienced  
>>>>>> OFBiz
>>>>>> user to change themes and not the new user. New users have  
>>>>>> enough on
>>>>>> their plate just learning how the applications work.
>>>>> I'm talking about demo.ofbiz.org having a current looking theme so
>>>>> that when people want to see the application for the first time,
>>>>> they're not asking if we started with the backend design in 2001  
>>>>> and
>>>>> then forgot to update it :)  If you guys want that to be a  
>>>>> deployment
>>>>> setting for the demo store - I'm happy to do it that way - let's  
>>>>> just
>>>>> not act like the old theme is what is making OFBiz happen.
>>>>>
>>>> So am I. Lets talk about the demo site. On a recent visit (2 days  
>>>> ago)
>>>> what I saw was embarrassing and hence my comment about pride of
>>>> ownership.
>>>>
>>>> I'd like to "call you to the carpet" on making "OFBiz happen". How
>>>> many new user's to OFBiz (I'm talking end-users) have been  
>>>> "convinced"
>>>> to adopt based on theme changes? Do you even know? If you can  
>>>> show me
>>>> the numbers, then I will gladly change my tune.
>>> No numbers - but from a sales perspective it's been MUCH better  
>>> received
>>> by all new people.  Keep in mind, I'm not talking about techies -  
>>> I'm
>>> talking about business people who will eventually use the  
>>> applications.
>>>
>>>>>> Thirdly, please don't throw around "its easy" to do something
>>>>>> without siting references. You insult my intelligence and every
>>>>>> other reader on this list by implying that anything concerning
>>>>>> recent releases of OFBiz is "easy".
>>>>> Please Ruth - come on.  If you're not sure where the themes are,  
>>>>> then
>>>>> please use a browser tool to tell you where the CSS is that drives
>>>>> the theme and tinker with it.  If I had the references for you  
>>>>> in my
>>>>> hands - I'll lay them out like a towel - but since I didn't, I
>>>>> declined to send you to the wrong place.  Me and the other readers
>>>>> (and my employees) dove in on the theme concept and tried our  
>>>>> best to
>>>>> come up with something quickly that would make an impact in the
>>>>> release.  I think we accomplished that in a big way.  If it's not
>>>>> good, then please help to make it better rather than turning  
>>>>> back to
>>>>> something that's not pushing forward (on the design front).
>>>>>
>>>> Tim, we are not talking about me. I know how to do this. I've spent
>>>> several years working with all aspects of OFBiz from the front- 
>>>> end CSS
>>>> to writing modifications to the Entity Engine to support database
>>>> field types not supported by OFBiz. I'm talking about new users.
>>> Well that's great- wasn't sure by your message.
>>>
>>>> I have tried to "make it better" by submitting JIRA issues.
>>>> How about if we start over with a design document and a baseline  
>>>> that
>>>> we know works - perhaps the Flat Grey theme, and go forward from
>>>> there. Give me developer/access rights to the code base and I'd  
>>>> gladly
>>>> help out.
>>> Feel free to start that process, but I insist that you start from  
>>> the
>>> new standard - not the old one.
>>>
>>>>> I'd much rather see these kinks worked out - since we're only  
>>>>> talking
>>>>> about CSS - not the magic of the screen widget / form widget, etc.
>>>>> In this case, "easy" means that any web developer in the world  
>>>>> that
>>>>> does "Inspect Element" on Safari or anything else - will be able  
>>>>> to
>>>>> see where the CSS is - since that's 99% of how these themes are
>>>>> messed with in the first place.
>>>>>
>>>> I agree with you here concerning working out the kinks. Where we
>>>> diverge is: I don't think it is up to end-users to do testing for  
>>>> the
>>>> project. Don't commit code (themes or otherwise) that has not been
>>>> tested. Don't make changes to OFBiz until those changes have been
>>>> tested. Its pretty simple.
>>> Are you insinuating that we do this?  I certainly hope not.
>>>
>>>> Again, end-users have enough on their plate just learning the
>>>> applications. And, perhaps more importantly, end-user's for the
>>>> backend applications are not the same web developers you  
>>>> reference here.
>>>>
>>>> You obviously see all this from a service provider's point of  
>>>> view and
>>>> not an end-user. Please understand, I don't provide OFBiz  
>>>> development,
>>>> deployment or integration services. I am an advocate for end-users.
>>>> IMO, if we don't get more end-users looking at OFBiz, you might as
>>>> well kiss this project good-bye.
>>> We can agree on that front for sure.  I see this from an adoption
>>> standpoint - and that old 1990's theme ain't getting anyone off  
>>> the mat
>>> to use OFBiz - I can promise you that.
>>>
>>>> Its all about mindshare, and while OFBiz has been good to you and
>>>> HotWax, your attitude is very similar to the "proprietary"  
>>>> mindset of
>>>> some software vendors that shall remain unnamed.
>>>>
>>>> Please take off your service provider hat and look at all this  
>>>> from a
>>>> potential new end-user.
>>> Please put on your I'll dive in and fix these minor issues -  
>>> instead of
>>> sitting back and being a purist.  That's what we do and I hope to  
>>> see
>>> you do the same.  What you're doing on the end user spectrum will
>>> undoubtedly be a big help, but just sitting back or rolling back  
>>> doesn't
>>> get the issues resolved.  Thanks for submitting bugs - they're all  
>>> over
>>> the system and we're in there fixing them daily ....
>>>
>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>> Ruth
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------
>>>>>> Ruth Hoffman, Author, Mentor & OFBiz Enthusiast
>>>>>> Ruth.Hoffman@myofbiz.com
>>>>>> Looking for more OFBiz info, please visit my website:
>>>>>> http://www.myofbiz.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Tim Ruppert wrote:
>>>>>>> We are all working within the constraints of _not_ redesigning  
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> entire set of backend applications - which is really what  
>>>>>>> needs to
>>>>>>> be done. The old theme sucks visually - has no spice, doesn't  
>>>>>>> fit
>>>>>>> today's look and feel guidelines AT ALL, looks really old - so  
>>>>>>> I'd
>>>>>>> say from someone who does this day in and day out - you're WAY  
>>>>>>> off
>>>>>>> when it comes to the way that people react to it (be clear, this
>>>>>>> does not talk to using it on a day to day basis).  We've been  
>>>>>>> very
>>>>>>> successful in building themes off of Bizzness Time - please are
>>>>>>> reacting in a really positive way.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There is nothing other than a visual change on the BizznessTime
>>>>>>> theme.  There are no other extra widgets or the like.  it's  
>>>>>>> just a
>>>>>>> reorganization of the data that's there to help give it a
>>>>>>> facelift.  I'm not talking to users - I'm talking to you and
>>>>>>> everyone else who has issues with it.  Fix it ... or go back  
>>>>>>> to the
>>>>>>> old theme in your own setup - don't doom the rest of us to  
>>>>>>> have to
>>>>>>> go apply first impressions with that really lame setup.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As for the documentation - I'm not sure - checkout Confluence  
>>>>>>> - we
>>>>>>> just dug in and tried to bring the backend apps out of the early
>>>>>>> 2000s instead of letting it sit stagnant.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>> Ruppert
>>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>>> Tim Ruppert
>>>>>>> HotWax Media
>>>>>>> http://www.hotwaxmedia.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> o:801.649.6594
>>>>>>> f:801.649.6595
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Oct 13, 2009, at 7:10 AM, Ruth Hoffman wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hello Tim:
>>>>>>>> If this a tool for convincing people to use OFBiz, then IMO, we
>>>>>>>> are way off the mark. The backend applications where the
>>>>>>>> BiznessTime theme has been applied are designed for end-users  
>>>>>>>> who
>>>>>>>> may not and probably do not have any experience with HTML or  
>>>>>>>> CSS.
>>>>>>>> Lets not forget who our audience is here.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If the foundation, as you say is so solid (and I have not doubt
>>>>>>>> that it is), then reverting back to a simpler yet more  
>>>>>>>> accessible
>>>>>>>> theme should be the way to go.  Fancier is not always better.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On another note, could you point me to the end-user  
>>>>>>>> documentation
>>>>>>>> covering  creating new themes. I'd be happy to try this out and
>>>>>>>> post my findings.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>> Ruth
>>>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>> Ruth Hoffman, Author, Mentor & OFBiz Enthusiast
>>>>>>>> Ruth.Hoffman@myofbiz.com
>>>>>>>> Looking for more OFBiz info, please visit my website:
>>>>>>>> http://www.myofbiz.com
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Tim Ruppert wrote:
>>>>>>>>> We exclusively use the BizznessTime theme with clients because
>>>>>>>>> it's WAY easier to change, skin and adapt to everyone's  
>>>>>>>>> liking /
>>>>>>>>> look and feel.  I think it would be a huge mistake to roll it
>>>>>>>>> back to the Flat Grey as we have not had any of the same  
>>>>>>>>> problems
>>>>>>>>> once everyone gets over the initial shock of seeing something
>>>>>>>>> different.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> If the community wants to roll it back - then go for it -  
>>>>>>>>> but it
>>>>>>>>> isn't wise.  FIX the problems that you don't like in the
>>>>>>>>> BizznessTime theme, or create one of your own - it's easy to  
>>>>>>>>> do -
>>>>>>>>> this is a much more solid foundation to build on then the old
>>>>>>>>> (and looking really old) theme that's been in there since the
>>>>>>>>> beginning.  Have any of you tried to edit the CSS to make any
>>>>>>>>> changes that might not make it so "large"?  It should be  
>>>>>>>>> pretty
>>>>>>>>> easy with this setup.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Anyways, think on it and do what you will do, but remember  
>>>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>>>> is still a tool for convincing people to use OFBiz.  I'd leave
>>>>>>>>> this in place and change it to the ugly, ugly in your own
>>>>>>>>> installations before I wanted to go back to Flay Grey as a  
>>>>>>>>> sales
>>>>>>>>> tool ....
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>>> Ruppert
>>>>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>>>>> Tim Ruppert
>>>>>>>>> HotWax Media
>>>>>>>>> http://www.hotwaxmedia.com
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> o:801.649.6594
>>>>>>>>> f:801.649.6595
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Oct 13, 2009, at 3:40 AM, Jacques Le Roux wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Hi Hans,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> So far,
>>>>>>>>>> * it seems that most people find things too large and  
>>>>>>>>>> prefer to
>>>>>>>>>> zoom out.
>>>>>>>>>> * it seems also that not much specific bugs were reported,  
>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>> those reported should be easily fixed (not quite sure  
>>>>>>>>>> though...)
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I repeat myself about where to report about this subject :
>>>>>>>>>> create a subtask at
>>>>>>>>>> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/OFBIZ-2398
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> In his 1st reply Chris Snow suggested a change. But I'm not  
>>>>>>>>>> sure
>>>>>>>>>> it's enough for doing the same thing as a zoom out
>>>>>>>>>> Maybe we could ask Ryan Foster if it's possble to shrink the
>>>>>>>>>> size (of everything ) else we may vote for the "return of  
>>>>>>>>>> Flat
>>>>>>>>>> Grey" as default
>>>>>>>>>> theme.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> What do you people think ?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Jacques
>>>>>>>>>> PS : Hans I saw you opened a subtask for the field size  
>>>>>>>>>> issue,
>>>>>>>>>> thanks!
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> From: "Hans Bakker" <mailinglist@antwebsystems.com
>>>>>>>>>> <ma...@antwebsystems.com>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Sure the Business theme looks good but.....
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The general problem is that the characters, fields and  
>>>>>>>>>>> actually
>>>>>>>>>>> everything is far too big....If i specify a field to be 2
>>>>>>>>>>> characters, at
>>>>>>>>>>> least 5 fit in....
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> So set the default to flat_gray in general properties is
>>>>>>>>>>> perhaps better.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>>>>> Hans
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 2009-10-12 at 16:19 +0200, Jacques Le Roux wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I'd like to know what the community thinks about Bizness  
>>>>>>>>>>>> Time
>>>>>>>>>>>> as default theme.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Do you use it?
>>>>>>>>>>>> Do you change for another theme ?
>>>>>>>>>>>> Which one fo you prefer?
>>>>>>>>>>>> Did you find bugs in one of the theme but not another?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Jacques
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>>>>>>> Antwebsystems.com <http://Antwebsystems.com>: Quality OFBiz
>>>>>>>>>>> services for competitive rates
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>
>
> -- 
> BJ Freeman
> http://www.businessesnetwork.com/automation
> http://bjfreeman.elance.com
> http://www.linkedin.com/profile?viewProfile=&key=1237480&locale=en_US&trk=tab_pro
> Systems Integrator.
>

Re: Default theme ?

Posted by Tim Ruppert <ti...@hotwaxmedia.com>.

No worries BJ - thanks for the clarification.

Cheers,
Ruppert

On Oct 13, 2009, at 11:41 AM, BJ Freeman wrote:

> I was not pointing the server comment at you, tim.
> I guess since I replied you your response that it can take it that  
> way.
>
>
> Tim Ruppert sent the following on 10/13/2009 10:29 AM:
>> Yeah - we've got our own and in fact pay for the community ones as
>> well.  Just want to put the best face forward for the project.  Not
>> saying the themes are perfect, but let's start from current and mod  
>> from
>> there.  That's at least my vote - one of many people voting.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Ruppert
>>
>> On Oct 13, 2009, at 11:26 AM, BJ Freeman wrote:
>>
>>> Forgot one point, if your a company you should be able to support  
>>> you
>>> own demo site. Dedicated Servers these days cost about $100. Then  
>>> you
>>> can have it any way you want.
>>>
>>> BJ Freeman sent the following on 10/13/2009 10:03 AM:
>>>> This seems a lot to-do about nothing, reference, the default,  
>>>> since if
>>>> someone wants to demo the demo site they can change the theme.
>>>>
>>>> also I think it is mute since so many use the Site and change  
>>>> things
>>>> when someone else is on they change languages and themes, that it  
>>>> would
>>>> be theme wars on the Demo site, for all practical purposes.
>>>>
>>>> The valid discussion, to me, is the architectures of the themes,  
>>>> not a
>>>> specific theme, since anyone can create a theme and submit it for
>>>> inclusion.
>>>>
>>>> What themes can support and not support is valuable for those  
>>>> that want
>>>> to create themes.
>>>>
>>>> I would like to see, general support that looks at the browser  
>>>> functions
>>>> to determine what to present. Like does support javascript if not  
>>>> then
>>>> server up a basic page. So there would always be a basic text page
>>>> template for the browser where the user has turned off features
>>>>
>>>> Also Themes that address Color blind people and Those of us that  
>>>> have
>>>> trouble with fonts.
>>>> The last one really takes on a new dimensions, since have we  
>>>> already
>>>> found out, some translation cause justification problems
>>>>
>>>> My view of current themes is they show what can be done and are  
>>>> good
>>>> learning tools.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Tim Ruppert sent the following on 10/13/2009 9:44 AM:
>>>>> If you have changes to the theme - submit them or fix them.   
>>>>> This theme
>>>>> has been tested and is in fact used by many people that we work  
>>>>> with.
>>>>> We do not have all of the problems you mentioned.  There's NO  
>>>>> reason to
>>>>> start with Flat Grey - use the current theme - with the current  
>>>>> design
>>>>> and fix the issues.
>>>>>
>>>>> It wasn't crap when it was put forward, it was tested and used -  
>>>>> so
>>>>> please your best to not insult others as well :)  Read Foster's  
>>>>> email
>>>>> for where and why we did what we did and go from there.  I'm at
>>>>> least as
>>>>> interested as everyone in the community at fixing all of the  
>>>>> crap in
>>>>> OFBiz - as evidenced by the amazing amount of investment in time  
>>>>> and
>>>>> money that's been made by our company.
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>> Ruppert
>>>>> -- 
>>>>> Tim Ruppert
>>>>> HotWax Media
>>>>> http://www.hotwaxmedia.com
>>>>>
>>>>> o:801.649.6594
>>>>> f:801.649.6595
>>>>>
>>>>> On Oct 13, 2009, at 9:46 AM, Ruth Hoffman wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Tim:
>>>>>> This will probably start a "flame war" (if those things still  
>>>>>> happen
>>>>>> :-), but again this is all for what I feel is the betterment of  
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> project. Please see my comments inline:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Tim Ruppert wrote:
>>>>>>> Inline
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>> Ruppert
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Oct 13, 2009, at 8:09 AM, Ruth Hoffman wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hi Tim:
>>>>>>>> I fully understand your point of view and the constraints we  
>>>>>>>> all
>>>>>>>> labor under. Whether the old theme sucks or not is not in  
>>>>>>>> question
>>>>>>>> here.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> First question I have for you is what "guidelines" are you  
>>>>>>>> referring
>>>>>>>> to?
>>>>>>> Take a look at BizznessTime and then at Flat Grey and let me  
>>>>>>> know
>>>>>>> when you think each were designed from a look and feel  
>>>>>>> perspective?
>>>>>>> That's the point here - first impressions of whether or not this
>>>>>>> project is stale or not.  This is why it was developed and it  
>>>>>>> can
>>>>>>> have a huge impact on the people that see it for the first  
>>>>>>> time.  Not
>>>>>>> to mention that as I said, my customers have custom themes  
>>>>>>> built on
>>>>>>> BizznessTime and are happy with them ...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> You didn't answer my question. What guidelines?
>>>>>> I'm not disputing that your customers have nice themes. You, or  
>>>>>> your
>>>>>> company probably built them. Good for you! As a service  
>>>>>> provider, this
>>>>>> attitude towards the code base works in your favor. As an end- 
>>>>>> user,
>>>>>> maybe this approach towards the project code base doesn't work so
>>>>>> well. Please reconsider.
>>>>> Right, I'm trying to keep the code base crappy so I have to  
>>>>> explain to
>>>>> more and more people how we could fix it for them.  That makes no
>>>>> sense.
>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Secondly, why should a new user have to change a theme in  
>>>>>>>> order to
>>>>>>>> use OFBiz applications. If, as you say its easy to change a  
>>>>>>>> theme,
>>>>>>>> then it should be incumbent on the knowledgeable experienced  
>>>>>>>> OFBiz
>>>>>>>> user to change themes and not the new user. New users have  
>>>>>>>> enough on
>>>>>>>> their plate just learning how the applications work.
>>>>>>> I'm talking about demo.ofbiz.org having a current looking  
>>>>>>> theme so
>>>>>>> that when people want to see the application for the first time,
>>>>>>> they're not asking if we started with the backend design in  
>>>>>>> 2001 and
>>>>>>> then forgot to update it :)  If you guys want that to be a  
>>>>>>> deployment
>>>>>>> setting for the demo store - I'm happy to do it that way -  
>>>>>>> let's just
>>>>>>> not act like the old theme is what is making OFBiz happen.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> So am I. Lets talk about the demo site. On a recent visit (2  
>>>>>> days ago)
>>>>>> what I saw was embarrassing and hence my comment about pride of
>>>>>> ownership.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'd like to "call you to the carpet" on making "OFBiz happen".  
>>>>>> How
>>>>>> many new user's to OFBiz (I'm talking end-users) have been  
>>>>>> "convinced"
>>>>>> to adopt based on theme changes? Do you even know? If you can  
>>>>>> show me
>>>>>> the numbers, then I will gladly change my tune.
>>>>> No numbers - but from a sales perspective it's been MUCH better
>>>>> received
>>>>> by all new people.  Keep in mind, I'm not talking about techies  
>>>>> - I'm
>>>>> talking about business people who will eventually use the  
>>>>> applications.
>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Thirdly, please don't throw around "its easy" to do something
>>>>>>>> without siting references. You insult my intelligence and every
>>>>>>>> other reader on this list by implying that anything concerning
>>>>>>>> recent releases of OFBiz is "easy".
>>>>>>> Please Ruth - come on.  If you're not sure where the themes  
>>>>>>> are, then
>>>>>>> please use a browser tool to tell you where the CSS is that  
>>>>>>> drives
>>>>>>> the theme and tinker with it.  If I had the references for you  
>>>>>>> in my
>>>>>>> hands - I'll lay them out like a towel - but since I didn't, I
>>>>>>> declined to send you to the wrong place.  Me and the other  
>>>>>>> readers
>>>>>>> (and my employees) dove in on the theme concept and tried our  
>>>>>>> best to
>>>>>>> come up with something quickly that would make an impact in the
>>>>>>> release.  I think we accomplished that in a big way.  If it's  
>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>> good, then please help to make it better rather than turning  
>>>>>>> back to
>>>>>>> something that's not pushing forward (on the design front).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Tim, we are not talking about me. I know how to do this. I've  
>>>>>> spent
>>>>>> several years working with all aspects of OFBiz from the front- 
>>>>>> end CSS
>>>>>> to writing modifications to the Entity Engine to support database
>>>>>> field types not supported by OFBiz. I'm talking about new users.
>>>>> Well that's great- wasn't sure by your message.
>>>>>
>>>>>> I have tried to "make it better" by submitting JIRA issues.
>>>>>> How about if we start over with a design document and a  
>>>>>> baseline that
>>>>>> we know works - perhaps the Flat Grey theme, and go forward from
>>>>>> there. Give me developer/access rights to the code base and I'd  
>>>>>> gladly
>>>>>> help out.
>>>>> Feel free to start that process, but I insist that you start  
>>>>> from the
>>>>> new standard - not the old one.
>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'd much rather see these kinks worked out - since we're only  
>>>>>>> talking
>>>>>>> about CSS - not the magic of the screen widget / form widget,  
>>>>>>> etc.
>>>>>>> In this case, "easy" means that any web developer in the world  
>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>> does "Inspect Element" on Safari or anything else - will be  
>>>>>>> able to
>>>>>>> see where the CSS is - since that's 99% of how these themes are
>>>>>>> messed with in the first place.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> I agree with you here concerning working out the kinks. Where we
>>>>>> diverge is: I don't think it is up to end-users to do testing  
>>>>>> for the
>>>>>> project. Don't commit code (themes or otherwise) that has not  
>>>>>> been
>>>>>> tested. Don't make changes to OFBiz until those changes have been
>>>>>> tested. Its pretty simple.
>>>>> Are you insinuating that we do this?  I certainly hope not.
>>>>>
>>>>>> Again, end-users have enough on their plate just learning the
>>>>>> applications. And, perhaps more importantly, end-user's for the
>>>>>> backend applications are not the same web developers you  
>>>>>> reference
>>>>>> here.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You obviously see all this from a service provider's point of  
>>>>>> view and
>>>>>> not an end-user. Please understand, I don't provide OFBiz  
>>>>>> development,
>>>>>> deployment or integration services. I am an advocate for end- 
>>>>>> users.
>>>>>> IMO, if we don't get more end-users looking at OFBiz, you might  
>>>>>> as
>>>>>> well kiss this project good-bye.
>>>>> We can agree on that front for sure.  I see this from an adoption
>>>>> standpoint - and that old 1990's theme ain't getting anyone off  
>>>>> the mat
>>>>> to use OFBiz - I can promise you that.
>>>>>
>>>>>> Its all about mindshare, and while OFBiz has been good to you and
>>>>>> HotWax, your attitude is very similar to the "proprietary"  
>>>>>> mindset of
>>>>>> some software vendors that shall remain unnamed.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Please take off your service provider hat and look at all this  
>>>>>> from a
>>>>>> potential new end-user.
>>>>> Please put on your I'll dive in and fix these minor issues -  
>>>>> instead of
>>>>> sitting back and being a purist.  That's what we do and I hope  
>>>>> to see
>>>>> you do the same.  What you're doing on the end user spectrum will
>>>>> undoubtedly be a big help, but just sitting back or rolling back
>>>>> doesn't
>>>>> get the issues resolved.  Thanks for submitting bugs - they're  
>>>>> all over
>>>>> the system and we're in there fixing them daily ....
>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>> Ruth
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>> Ruth Hoffman, Author, Mentor & OFBiz Enthusiast
>>>>>>>> Ruth.Hoffman@myofbiz.com
>>>>>>>> Looking for more OFBiz info, please visit my website:
>>>>>>>> http://www.myofbiz.com
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Tim Ruppert wrote:
>>>>>>>>> We are all working within the constraints of _not_  
>>>>>>>>> redesigning the
>>>>>>>>> entire set of backend applications - which is really what  
>>>>>>>>> needs to
>>>>>>>>> be done. The old theme sucks visually - has no spice,  
>>>>>>>>> doesn't fit
>>>>>>>>> today's look and feel guidelines AT ALL, looks really old -  
>>>>>>>>> so I'd
>>>>>>>>> say from someone who does this day in and day out - you're  
>>>>>>>>> WAY off
>>>>>>>>> when it comes to the way that people react to it (be clear,  
>>>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>>>> does not talk to using it on a day to day basis).  We've  
>>>>>>>>> been very
>>>>>>>>> successful in building themes off of Bizzness Time - please  
>>>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>>> reacting in a really positive way.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> There is nothing other than a visual change on the  
>>>>>>>>> BizznessTime
>>>>>>>>> theme.  There are no other extra widgets or the like.  it's  
>>>>>>>>> just a
>>>>>>>>> reorganization of the data that's there to help give it a
>>>>>>>>> facelift.  I'm not talking to users - I'm talking to you and
>>>>>>>>> everyone else who has issues with it.  Fix it ... or go back  
>>>>>>>>> to the
>>>>>>>>> old theme in your own setup - don't doom the rest of us to  
>>>>>>>>> have to
>>>>>>>>> go apply first impressions with that really lame setup.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> As for the documentation - I'm not sure - checkout  
>>>>>>>>> Confluence - we
>>>>>>>>> just dug in and tried to bring the backend apps out of the  
>>>>>>>>> early
>>>>>>>>> 2000s instead of letting it sit stagnant.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>>> Ruppert
>>>>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>>>>> Tim Ruppert
>>>>>>>>> HotWax Media
>>>>>>>>> http://www.hotwaxmedia.com
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> o:801.649.6594
>>>>>>>>> f:801.649.6595
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Oct 13, 2009, at 7:10 AM, Ruth Hoffman wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Hello Tim:
>>>>>>>>>> If this a tool for convincing people to use OFBiz, then  
>>>>>>>>>> IMO, we
>>>>>>>>>> are way off the mark. The backend applications where the
>>>>>>>>>> BiznessTime theme has been applied are designed for end- 
>>>>>>>>>> users who
>>>>>>>>>> may not and probably do not have any experience with HTML  
>>>>>>>>>> or CSS.
>>>>>>>>>> Lets not forget who our audience is here.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> If the foundation, as you say is so solid (and I have not  
>>>>>>>>>> doubt
>>>>>>>>>> that it is), then reverting back to a simpler yet more  
>>>>>>>>>> accessible
>>>>>>>>>> theme should be the way to go.  Fancier is not always better.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On another note, could you point me to the end-user  
>>>>>>>>>> documentation
>>>>>>>>>> covering  creating new themes. I'd be happy to try this out  
>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>> post my findings.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>>>> Ruth
>>>>>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>>> Ruth Hoffman, Author, Mentor & OFBiz Enthusiast
>>>>>>>>>> Ruth.Hoffman@myofbiz.com
>>>>>>>>>> Looking for more OFBiz info, please visit my website:
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.myofbiz.com
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Tim Ruppert wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> We exclusively use the BizznessTime theme with clients  
>>>>>>>>>>> because
>>>>>>>>>>> it's WAY easier to change, skin and adapt to everyone's  
>>>>>>>>>>> liking /
>>>>>>>>>>> look and feel.  I think it would be a huge mistake to roll  
>>>>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>>>>> back to the Flat Grey as we have not had any of the same  
>>>>>>>>>>> problems
>>>>>>>>>>> once everyone gets over the initial shock of seeing  
>>>>>>>>>>> something
>>>>>>>>>>> different.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> If the community wants to roll it back - then go for it -  
>>>>>>>>>>> but it
>>>>>>>>>>> isn't wise.  FIX the problems that you don't like in the
>>>>>>>>>>> BizznessTime theme, or create one of your own - it's easy  
>>>>>>>>>>> to do -
>>>>>>>>>>> this is a much more solid foundation to build on then the  
>>>>>>>>>>> old
>>>>>>>>>>> (and looking really old) theme that's been in there since  
>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>> beginning.  Have any of you tried to edit the CSS to make  
>>>>>>>>>>> any
>>>>>>>>>>> changes that might not make it so "large"?  It should be  
>>>>>>>>>>> pretty
>>>>>>>>>>> easy with this setup.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Anyways, think on it and do what you will do, but remember  
>>>>>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>>>>>> is still a tool for convincing people to use OFBiz.  I'd  
>>>>>>>>>>> leave
>>>>>>>>>>> this in place and change it to the ugly, ugly in your own
>>>>>>>>>>> installations before I wanted to go back to Flay Grey as a  
>>>>>>>>>>> sales
>>>>>>>>>>> tool ....
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>>>>> Ruppert
>>>>>>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>>>>>>> Tim Ruppert
>>>>>>>>>>> HotWax Media
>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.hotwaxmedia.com
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> o:801.649.6594
>>>>>>>>>>> f:801.649.6595
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Oct 13, 2009, at 3:40 AM, Jacques Le Roux wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Hans,
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> So far,
>>>>>>>>>>>> * it seems that most people find things too large and  
>>>>>>>>>>>> prefer to
>>>>>>>>>>>> zoom out.
>>>>>>>>>>>> * it seems also that not much specific bugs were  
>>>>>>>>>>>> reported, and
>>>>>>>>>>>> those reported should be easily fixed (not quite sure  
>>>>>>>>>>>> though...)
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I repeat myself about where to report about this subject :
>>>>>>>>>>>> create a subtask at
>>>>>>>>>>>> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/OFBIZ-2398
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> In his 1st reply Chris Snow suggested a change. But I'm  
>>>>>>>>>>>> not sure
>>>>>>>>>>>> it's enough for doing the same thing as a zoom out
>>>>>>>>>>>> Maybe we could ask Ryan Foster if it's possble to shrink  
>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>> size (of everything ) else we may vote for the "return of  
>>>>>>>>>>>> Flat
>>>>>>>>>>>> Grey" as default
>>>>>>>>>>>> theme.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> What do you people think ?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Jacques
>>>>>>>>>>>> PS : Hans I saw you opened a subtask for the field size  
>>>>>>>>>>>> issue,
>>>>>>>>>>>> thanks!
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> From: "Hans Bakker" <mailinglist@antwebsystems.com
>>>>>>>>>>>> <ma...@antwebsystems.com>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sure the Business theme looks good but.....
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> The general problem is that the characters, fields and  
>>>>>>>>>>>>> actually
>>>>>>>>>>>>> everything is far too big....If i specify a field to be 2
>>>>>>>>>>>>> characters, at
>>>>>>>>>>>>> least 5 fit in....
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> So set the default to flat_gray in general properties is
>>>>>>>>>>>>> perhaps better.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hans
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 2009-10-12 at 16:19 +0200, Jacques Le Roux wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'd like to know what the community thinks about  
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bizness Time
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as default theme.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Do you use it?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Do you change for another theme ?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Which one fo you prefer?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Did you find bugs in one of the theme but not another?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jacques
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Antwebsystems.com <http://Antwebsystems.com>: Quality  
>>>>>>>>>>>>> OFBiz
>>>>>>>>>>>>> services for competitive rates
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> -- 
>>> BJ Freeman
>>> http://www.businessesnetwork.com/automation
>>> http://bjfreeman.elance.com
>>> http://www.linkedin.com/profile?viewProfile=&key=1237480&locale=en_US&trk=tab_pro
>>>
>>> Systems Integrator.
>>>
>>
>
> -- 
> BJ Freeman
> http://www.businessesnetwork.com/automation
> http://bjfreeman.elance.com
> http://www.linkedin.com/profile?viewProfile=&key=1237480&locale=en_US&trk=tab_pro
> Systems Integrator.
>

Re: Default theme ?

Posted by BJ Freeman <bj...@free-man.net>.

I was not pointing the server comment at you, tim.
I guess since I replied you your response that it can take it that way.


Tim Ruppert sent the following on 10/13/2009 10:29 AM:
> Yeah - we've got our own and in fact pay for the community ones as
> well.  Just want to put the best face forward for the project.  Not
> saying the themes are perfect, but let's start from current and mod from
> there.  That's at least my vote - one of many people voting.
> 
> Cheers,
> Ruppert
> 
> On Oct 13, 2009, at 11:26 AM, BJ Freeman wrote:
> 
>> Forgot one point, if your a company you should be able to support you
>> own demo site. Dedicated Servers these days cost about $100. Then you
>> can have it any way you want.
>>
>> BJ Freeman sent the following on 10/13/2009 10:03 AM:
>>> This seems a lot to-do about nothing, reference, the default, since if
>>> someone wants to demo the demo site they can change the theme.
>>>
>>> also I think it is mute since so many use the Site and change things
>>> when someone else is on they change languages and themes, that it would
>>> be theme wars on the Demo site, for all practical purposes.
>>>
>>> The valid discussion, to me, is the architectures of the themes, not a
>>> specific theme, since anyone can create a theme and submit it for
>>> inclusion.
>>>
>>> What themes can support and not support is valuable for those that want
>>> to create themes.
>>>
>>> I would like to see, general support that looks at the browser functions
>>> to determine what to present. Like does support javascript if not then
>>> server up a basic page. So there would always be a basic text page
>>> template for the browser where the user has turned off features
>>>
>>> Also Themes that address Color blind people and Those of us that have
>>> trouble with fonts.
>>> The last one really takes on a new dimensions, since have we already
>>> found out, some translation cause justification problems
>>>
>>> My view of current themes is they show what can be done and are good
>>> learning tools.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Tim Ruppert sent the following on 10/13/2009 9:44 AM:
>>>> If you have changes to the theme - submit them or fix them.  This theme
>>>> has been tested and is in fact used by many people that we work with.
>>>> We do not have all of the problems you mentioned.  There's NO reason to
>>>> start with Flat Grey - use the current theme - with the current design
>>>> and fix the issues.
>>>>
>>>> It wasn't crap when it was put forward, it was tested and used - so
>>>> please your best to not insult others as well :)  Read Foster's email
>>>> for where and why we did what we did and go from there.  I'm at
>>>> least as
>>>> interested as everyone in the community at fixing all of the crap in
>>>> OFBiz - as evidenced by the amazing amount of investment in time and
>>>> money that's been made by our company.
>>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> Ruppert
>>>> -- 
>>>> Tim Ruppert
>>>> HotWax Media
>>>> http://www.hotwaxmedia.com
>>>>
>>>> o:801.649.6594
>>>> f:801.649.6595
>>>>
>>>> On Oct 13, 2009, at 9:46 AM, Ruth Hoffman wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi Tim:
>>>>> This will probably start a "flame war" (if those things still happen
>>>>> :-), but again this is all for what I feel is the betterment of the
>>>>> project. Please see my comments inline:
>>>>>
>>>>> Tim Ruppert wrote:
>>>>>> Inline
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>> Ruppert
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Oct 13, 2009, at 8:09 AM, Ruth Hoffman wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi Tim:
>>>>>>> I fully understand your point of view and the constraints we all
>>>>>>> labor under. Whether the old theme sucks or not is not in question
>>>>>>> here.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> First question I have for you is what "guidelines" are you referring
>>>>>>> to?
>>>>>> Take a look at BizznessTime and then at Flat Grey and let me know
>>>>>> when you think each were designed from a look and feel perspective?
>>>>>> That's the point here - first impressions of whether or not this
>>>>>> project is stale or not.  This is why it was developed and it can
>>>>>> have a huge impact on the people that see it for the first time.  Not
>>>>>> to mention that as I said, my customers have custom themes built on
>>>>>> BizznessTime and are happy with them ...
>>>>>>
>>>>> You didn't answer my question. What guidelines?
>>>>> I'm not disputing that your customers have nice themes. You, or your
>>>>> company probably built them. Good for you! As a service provider, this
>>>>> attitude towards the code base works in your favor. As an end-user,
>>>>> maybe this approach towards the project code base doesn't work so
>>>>> well. Please reconsider.
>>>> Right, I'm trying to keep the code base crappy so I have to explain to
>>>> more and more people how we could fix it for them.  That makes no
>>>> sense.
>>>>
>>>>>>> Secondly, why should a new user have to change a theme in order to
>>>>>>> use OFBiz applications. If, as you say its easy to change a theme,
>>>>>>> then it should be incumbent on the knowledgeable experienced OFBiz
>>>>>>> user to change themes and not the new user. New users have enough on
>>>>>>> their plate just learning how the applications work.
>>>>>> I'm talking about demo.ofbiz.org having a current looking theme so
>>>>>> that when people want to see the application for the first time,
>>>>>> they're not asking if we started with the backend design in 2001 and
>>>>>> then forgot to update it :)  If you guys want that to be a deployment
>>>>>> setting for the demo store - I'm happy to do it that way - let's just
>>>>>> not act like the old theme is what is making OFBiz happen.
>>>>>>
>>>>> So am I. Lets talk about the demo site. On a recent visit (2 days ago)
>>>>> what I saw was embarrassing and hence my comment about pride of
>>>>> ownership.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'd like to "call you to the carpet" on making "OFBiz happen". How
>>>>> many new user's to OFBiz (I'm talking end-users) have been "convinced"
>>>>> to adopt based on theme changes? Do you even know? If you can show me
>>>>> the numbers, then I will gladly change my tune.
>>>> No numbers - but from a sales perspective it's been MUCH better
>>>> received
>>>> by all new people.  Keep in mind, I'm not talking about techies - I'm
>>>> talking about business people who will eventually use the applications.
>>>>
>>>>>>> Thirdly, please don't throw around "its easy" to do something
>>>>>>> without siting references. You insult my intelligence and every
>>>>>>> other reader on this list by implying that anything concerning
>>>>>>> recent releases of OFBiz is "easy".
>>>>>> Please Ruth - come on.  If you're not sure where the themes are, then
>>>>>> please use a browser tool to tell you where the CSS is that drives
>>>>>> the theme and tinker with it.  If I had the references for you in my
>>>>>> hands - I'll lay them out like a towel - but since I didn't, I
>>>>>> declined to send you to the wrong place.  Me and the other readers
>>>>>> (and my employees) dove in on the theme concept and tried our best to
>>>>>> come up with something quickly that would make an impact in the
>>>>>> release.  I think we accomplished that in a big way.  If it's not
>>>>>> good, then please help to make it better rather than turning back to
>>>>>> something that's not pushing forward (on the design front).
>>>>>>
>>>>> Tim, we are not talking about me. I know how to do this. I've spent
>>>>> several years working with all aspects of OFBiz from the front-end CSS
>>>>> to writing modifications to the Entity Engine to support database
>>>>> field types not supported by OFBiz. I'm talking about new users.
>>>> Well that's great- wasn't sure by your message.
>>>>
>>>>> I have tried to "make it better" by submitting JIRA issues.
>>>>> How about if we start over with a design document and a baseline that
>>>>> we know works - perhaps the Flat Grey theme, and go forward from
>>>>> there. Give me developer/access rights to the code base and I'd gladly
>>>>> help out.
>>>> Feel free to start that process, but I insist that you start from the
>>>> new standard - not the old one.
>>>>
>>>>>> I'd much rather see these kinks worked out - since we're only talking
>>>>>> about CSS - not the magic of the screen widget / form widget, etc.
>>>>>> In this case, "easy" means that any web developer in the world that
>>>>>> does "Inspect Element" on Safari or anything else - will be able to
>>>>>> see where the CSS is - since that's 99% of how these themes are
>>>>>> messed with in the first place.
>>>>>>
>>>>> I agree with you here concerning working out the kinks. Where we
>>>>> diverge is: I don't think it is up to end-users to do testing for the
>>>>> project. Don't commit code (themes or otherwise) that has not been
>>>>> tested. Don't make changes to OFBiz until those changes have been
>>>>> tested. Its pretty simple.
>>>> Are you insinuating that we do this?  I certainly hope not.
>>>>
>>>>> Again, end-users have enough on their plate just learning the
>>>>> applications. And, perhaps more importantly, end-user's for the
>>>>> backend applications are not the same web developers you reference
>>>>> here.
>>>>>
>>>>> You obviously see all this from a service provider's point of view and
>>>>> not an end-user. Please understand, I don't provide OFBiz development,
>>>>> deployment or integration services. I am an advocate for end-users.
>>>>> IMO, if we don't get more end-users looking at OFBiz, you might as
>>>>> well kiss this project good-bye.
>>>> We can agree on that front for sure.  I see this from an adoption
>>>> standpoint - and that old 1990's theme ain't getting anyone off the mat
>>>> to use OFBiz - I can promise you that.
>>>>
>>>>> Its all about mindshare, and while OFBiz has been good to you and
>>>>> HotWax, your attitude is very similar to the "proprietary" mindset of
>>>>> some software vendors that shall remain unnamed.
>>>>>
>>>>> Please take off your service provider hat and look at all this from a
>>>>> potential new end-user.
>>>> Please put on your I'll dive in and fix these minor issues - instead of
>>>> sitting back and being a purist.  That's what we do and I hope to see
>>>> you do the same.  What you're doing on the end user spectrum will
>>>> undoubtedly be a big help, but just sitting back or rolling back
>>>> doesn't
>>>> get the issues resolved.  Thanks for submitting bugs - they're all over
>>>> the system and we're in there fixing them daily ....
>>>>
>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>> Ruth
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>> Ruth Hoffman, Author, Mentor & OFBiz Enthusiast
>>>>>>> Ruth.Hoffman@myofbiz.com
>>>>>>> Looking for more OFBiz info, please visit my website:
>>>>>>> http://www.myofbiz.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Tim Ruppert wrote:
>>>>>>>> We are all working within the constraints of _not_ redesigning the
>>>>>>>> entire set of backend applications - which is really what needs to
>>>>>>>> be done. The old theme sucks visually - has no spice, doesn't fit
>>>>>>>> today's look and feel guidelines AT ALL, looks really old - so I'd
>>>>>>>> say from someone who does this day in and day out - you're WAY off
>>>>>>>> when it comes to the way that people react to it (be clear, this
>>>>>>>> does not talk to using it on a day to day basis).  We've been very
>>>>>>>> successful in building themes off of Bizzness Time - please are
>>>>>>>> reacting in a really positive way.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> There is nothing other than a visual change on the BizznessTime
>>>>>>>> theme.  There are no other extra widgets or the like.  it's just a
>>>>>>>> reorganization of the data that's there to help give it a
>>>>>>>> facelift.  I'm not talking to users - I'm talking to you and
>>>>>>>> everyone else who has issues with it.  Fix it ... or go back to the
>>>>>>>> old theme in your own setup - don't doom the rest of us to have to
>>>>>>>> go apply first impressions with that really lame setup.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> As for the documentation - I'm not sure - checkout Confluence - we
>>>>>>>> just dug in and tried to bring the backend apps out of the early
>>>>>>>> 2000s instead of letting it sit stagnant.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>> Ruppert
>>>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>>>> Tim Ruppert
>>>>>>>> HotWax Media
>>>>>>>> http://www.hotwaxmedia.com
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> o:801.649.6594
>>>>>>>> f:801.649.6595
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Oct 13, 2009, at 7:10 AM, Ruth Hoffman wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Hello Tim:
>>>>>>>>> If this a tool for convincing people to use OFBiz, then IMO, we
>>>>>>>>> are way off the mark. The backend applications where the
>>>>>>>>> BiznessTime theme has been applied are designed for end-users who
>>>>>>>>> may not and probably do not have any experience with HTML or CSS.
>>>>>>>>> Lets not forget who our audience is here.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> If the foundation, as you say is so solid (and I have not doubt
>>>>>>>>> that it is), then reverting back to a simpler yet more accessible
>>>>>>>>> theme should be the way to go.  Fancier is not always better.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On another note, could you point me to the end-user documentation
>>>>>>>>> covering  creating new themes. I'd be happy to try this out and
>>>>>>>>> post my findings.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>>> Ruth
>>>>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>> Ruth Hoffman, Author, Mentor & OFBiz Enthusiast
>>>>>>>>> Ruth.Hoffman@myofbiz.com
>>>>>>>>> Looking for more OFBiz info, please visit my website:
>>>>>>>>> http://www.myofbiz.com
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Tim Ruppert wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> We exclusively use the BizznessTime theme with clients because
>>>>>>>>>> it's WAY easier to change, skin and adapt to everyone's liking /
>>>>>>>>>> look and feel.  I think it would be a huge mistake to roll it
>>>>>>>>>> back to the Flat Grey as we have not had any of the same problems
>>>>>>>>>> once everyone gets over the initial shock of seeing something
>>>>>>>>>> different.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> If the community wants to roll it back - then go for it - but it
>>>>>>>>>> isn't wise.  FIX the problems that you don't like in the
>>>>>>>>>> BizznessTime theme, or create one of your own - it's easy to do -
>>>>>>>>>> this is a much more solid foundation to build on then the old
>>>>>>>>>> (and looking really old) theme that's been in there since the
>>>>>>>>>> beginning.  Have any of you tried to edit the CSS to make any
>>>>>>>>>> changes that might not make it so "large"?  It should be pretty
>>>>>>>>>> easy with this setup.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Anyways, think on it and do what you will do, but remember this
>>>>>>>>>> is still a tool for convincing people to use OFBiz.  I'd leave
>>>>>>>>>> this in place and change it to the ugly, ugly in your own
>>>>>>>>>> installations before I wanted to go back to Flay Grey as a sales
>>>>>>>>>> tool ....
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>>>> Ruppert
>>>>>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>>>>>> Tim Ruppert
>>>>>>>>>> HotWax Media
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.hotwaxmedia.com
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> o:801.649.6594
>>>>>>>>>> f:801.649.6595
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Oct 13, 2009, at 3:40 AM, Jacques Le Roux wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Hans,
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> So far,
>>>>>>>>>>> * it seems that most people find things too large and prefer to
>>>>>>>>>>> zoom out.
>>>>>>>>>>> * it seems also that not much specific bugs were reported, and
>>>>>>>>>>> those reported should be easily fixed (not quite sure though...)
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I repeat myself about where to report about this subject :
>>>>>>>>>>> create a subtask at
>>>>>>>>>>> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/OFBIZ-2398
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> In his 1st reply Chris Snow suggested a change. But I'm not sure
>>>>>>>>>>> it's enough for doing the same thing as a zoom out
>>>>>>>>>>> Maybe we could ask Ryan Foster if it's possble to shrink the
>>>>>>>>>>> size (of everything ) else we may vote for the "return of Flat
>>>>>>>>>>> Grey" as default
>>>>>>>>>>> theme.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> What do you people think ?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Jacques
>>>>>>>>>>> PS : Hans I saw you opened a subtask for the field size issue,
>>>>>>>>>>> thanks!
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> From: "Hans Bakker" <mailinglist@antwebsystems.com
>>>>>>>>>>> <ma...@antwebsystems.com>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Sure the Business theme looks good but.....
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> The general problem is that the characters, fields and actually
>>>>>>>>>>>> everything is far too big....If i specify a field to be 2
>>>>>>>>>>>> characters, at
>>>>>>>>>>>> least 5 fit in....
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> So set the default to flat_gray in general properties is
>>>>>>>>>>>> perhaps better.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>>>>>> Hans
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 2009-10-12 at 16:19 +0200, Jacques Le Roux wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'd like to know what the community thinks about Bizness Time
>>>>>>>>>>>>> as default theme.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Do you use it?
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Do you change for another theme ?
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Which one fo you prefer?
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Did you find bugs in one of the theme but not another?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jacques
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>>>>>>>> Antwebsystems.com <http://Antwebsystems.com>: Quality OFBiz
>>>>>>>>>>>> services for competitive rates
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>
>>
>> -- 
>> BJ Freeman
>> http://www.businessesnetwork.com/automation
>> http://bjfreeman.elance.com
>> http://www.linkedin.com/profile?viewProfile=&key=1237480&locale=en_US&trk=tab_pro
>>
>> Systems Integrator.
>>
> 

-- 
BJ Freeman
http://www.businessesnetwork.com/automation
http://bjfreeman.elance.com
http://www.linkedin.com/profile?viewProfile=&key=1237480&locale=en_US&trk=tab_pro
Systems Integrator.

Re: Default theme ?

Posted by BJ Freeman <bj...@free-man.net>.

Forgot one point, if your a company you should be able to support you
own demo site. Dedicated Servers these days cost about $100. Then you
can have it any way you want.

BJ Freeman sent the following on 10/13/2009 10:03 AM:
> This seems a lot to-do about nothing, reference, the default, since if
> someone wants to demo the demo site they can change the theme.
> 
> also I think it is mute since so many use the Site and change things
> when someone else is on they change languages and themes, that it would
> be theme wars on the Demo site, for all practical purposes.
> 
> The valid discussion, to me, is the architectures of the themes, not a
> specific theme, since anyone can create a theme and submit it for inclusion.
> 
> What themes can support and not support is valuable for those that want
> to create themes.
> 
> I would like to see, general support that looks at the browser functions
> to determine what to present. Like does support javascript if not then
> server up a basic page. So there would always be a basic text page
> template for the browser where the user has turned off features
> 
> Also Themes that address Color blind people and Those of us that have
> trouble with fonts.
> The last one really takes on a new dimensions, since have we already
> found out, some translation cause justification problems
> 
> My view of current themes is they show what can be done and are good
> learning tools.
> 
> 
> 
> Tim Ruppert sent the following on 10/13/2009 9:44 AM:
>> If you have changes to the theme - submit them or fix them.  This theme
>> has been tested and is in fact used by many people that we work with. 
>> We do not have all of the problems you mentioned.  There's NO reason to
>> start with Flat Grey - use the current theme - with the current design
>> and fix the issues.
>>
>> It wasn't crap when it was put forward, it was tested and used - so
>> please your best to not insult others as well :)  Read Foster's email
>> for where and why we did what we did and go from there.  I'm at least as
>> interested as everyone in the community at fixing all of the crap in
>> OFBiz - as evidenced by the amazing amount of investment in time and
>> money that's been made by our company.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Ruppert
>> -- 
>> Tim Ruppert
>> HotWax Media
>> http://www.hotwaxmedia.com
>>
>> o:801.649.6594
>> f:801.649.6595
>>
>> On Oct 13, 2009, at 9:46 AM, Ruth Hoffman wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Tim:
>>> This will probably start a "flame war" (if those things still happen
>>> :-), but again this is all for what I feel is the betterment of the
>>> project. Please see my comments inline:
>>>
>>> Tim Ruppert wrote:
>>>> Inline
>>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> Ruppert
>>>>
>>>> On Oct 13, 2009, at 8:09 AM, Ruth Hoffman wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi Tim:
>>>>> I fully understand your point of view and the constraints we all
>>>>> labor under. Whether the old theme sucks or not is not in question
>>>>> here.
>>>>>
>>>>> First question I have for you is what "guidelines" are you referring
>>>>> to?
>>>> Take a look at BizznessTime and then at Flat Grey and let me know
>>>> when you think each were designed from a look and feel perspective? 
>>>> That's the point here - first impressions of whether or not this
>>>> project is stale or not.  This is why it was developed and it can
>>>> have a huge impact on the people that see it for the first time.  Not
>>>> to mention that as I said, my customers have custom themes built on
>>>> BizznessTime and are happy with them ...
>>>>
>>> You didn't answer my question. What guidelines?
>>> I'm not disputing that your customers have nice themes. You, or your
>>> company probably built them. Good for you! As a service provider, this
>>> attitude towards the code base works in your favor. As an end-user,
>>> maybe this approach towards the project code base doesn't work so
>>> well. Please reconsider.
>> Right, I'm trying to keep the code base crappy so I have to explain to
>> more and more people how we could fix it for them.  That makes no sense.
>>
>>>>> Secondly, why should a new user have to change a theme in order to
>>>>> use OFBiz applications. If, as you say its easy to change a theme,
>>>>> then it should be incumbent on the knowledgeable experienced OFBiz
>>>>> user to change themes and not the new user. New users have enough on
>>>>> their plate just learning how the applications work.
>>>> I'm talking about demo.ofbiz.org having a current looking theme so
>>>> that when people want to see the application for the first time,
>>>> they're not asking if we started with the backend design in 2001 and
>>>> then forgot to update it :)  If you guys want that to be a deployment
>>>> setting for the demo store - I'm happy to do it that way - let's just
>>>> not act like the old theme is what is making OFBiz happen.
>>>>
>>> So am I. Lets talk about the demo site. On a recent visit (2 days ago)
>>> what I saw was embarrassing and hence my comment about pride of
>>> ownership.
>>>
>>> I'd like to "call you to the carpet" on making "OFBiz happen". How
>>> many new user's to OFBiz (I'm talking end-users) have been "convinced"
>>> to adopt based on theme changes? Do you even know? If you can show me
>>> the numbers, then I will gladly change my tune.
>> No numbers - but from a sales perspective it's been MUCH better received
>> by all new people.  Keep in mind, I'm not talking about techies - I'm
>> talking about business people who will eventually use the applications.
>>
>>>>> Thirdly, please don't throw around "its easy" to do something
>>>>> without siting references. You insult my intelligence and every
>>>>> other reader on this list by implying that anything concerning
>>>>> recent releases of OFBiz is "easy".
>>>> Please Ruth - come on.  If you're not sure where the themes are, then
>>>> please use a browser tool to tell you where the CSS is that drives
>>>> the theme and tinker with it.  If I had the references for you in my
>>>> hands - I'll lay them out like a towel - but since I didn't, I
>>>> declined to send you to the wrong place.  Me and the other readers
>>>> (and my employees) dove in on the theme concept and tried our best to
>>>> come up with something quickly that would make an impact in the
>>>> release.  I think we accomplished that in a big way.  If it's not
>>>> good, then please help to make it better rather than turning back to
>>>> something that's not pushing forward (on the design front).
>>>>
>>> Tim, we are not talking about me. I know how to do this. I've spent
>>> several years working with all aspects of OFBiz from the front-end CSS
>>> to writing modifications to the Entity Engine to support database
>>> field types not supported by OFBiz. I'm talking about new users.
>> Well that's great- wasn't sure by your message.
>>
>>> I have tried to "make it better" by submitting JIRA issues.
>>> How about if we start over with a design document and a baseline that
>>> we know works - perhaps the Flat Grey theme, and go forward from
>>> there. Give me developer/access rights to the code base and I'd gladly
>>> help out.
>> Feel free to start that process, but I insist that you start from the
>> new standard - not the old one.
>>
>>>> I'd much rather see these kinks worked out - since we're only talking
>>>> about CSS - not the magic of the screen widget / form widget, etc. 
>>>> In this case, "easy" means that any web developer in the world that
>>>> does "Inspect Element" on Safari or anything else - will be able to
>>>> see where the CSS is - since that's 99% of how these themes are
>>>> messed with in the first place.
>>>>
>>> I agree with you here concerning working out the kinks. Where we
>>> diverge is: I don't think it is up to end-users to do testing for the
>>> project. Don't commit code (themes or otherwise) that has not been
>>> tested. Don't make changes to OFBiz until those changes have been
>>> tested. Its pretty simple.
>> Are you insinuating that we do this?  I certainly hope not.
>>
>>> Again, end-users have enough on their plate just learning the
>>> applications. And, perhaps more importantly, end-user's for the
>>> backend applications are not the same web developers you reference here.
>>>
>>> You obviously see all this from a service provider's point of view and
>>> not an end-user. Please understand, I don't provide OFBiz development,
>>> deployment or integration services. I am an advocate for end-users.
>>> IMO, if we don't get more end-users looking at OFBiz, you might as
>>> well kiss this project good-bye.
>> We can agree on that front for sure.  I see this from an adoption
>> standpoint - and that old 1990's theme ain't getting anyone off the mat
>> to use OFBiz - I can promise you that.
>>
>>> Its all about mindshare, and while OFBiz has been good to you and
>>> HotWax, your attitude is very similar to the "proprietary" mindset of
>>> some software vendors that shall remain unnamed.
>>>
>>> Please take off your service provider hat and look at all this from a
>>> potential new end-user.
>> Please put on your I'll dive in and fix these minor issues - instead of
>> sitting back and being a purist.  That's what we do and I hope to see
>> you do the same.  What you're doing on the end user spectrum will
>> undoubtedly be a big help, but just sitting back or rolling back doesn't
>> get the issues resolved.  Thanks for submitting bugs - they're all over
>> the system and we're in there fixing them daily ....
>>
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>> Ruth
>>>>>
>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------
>>>>> Ruth Hoffman, Author, Mentor & OFBiz Enthusiast
>>>>> Ruth.Hoffman@myofbiz.com
>>>>> Looking for more OFBiz info, please visit my website:
>>>>> http://www.myofbiz.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Tim Ruppert wrote:
>>>>>> We are all working within the constraints of _not_ redesigning the
>>>>>> entire set of backend applications - which is really what needs to
>>>>>> be done. The old theme sucks visually - has no spice, doesn't fit
>>>>>> today's look and feel guidelines AT ALL, looks really old - so I'd
>>>>>> say from someone who does this day in and day out - you're WAY off
>>>>>> when it comes to the way that people react to it (be clear, this
>>>>>> does not talk to using it on a day to day basis).  We've been very
>>>>>> successful in building themes off of Bizzness Time - please are
>>>>>> reacting in a really positive way.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There is nothing other than a visual change on the BizznessTime
>>>>>> theme.  There are no other extra widgets or the like.  it's just a
>>>>>> reorganization of the data that's there to help give it a
>>>>>> facelift.  I'm not talking to users - I'm talking to you and
>>>>>> everyone else who has issues with it.  Fix it ... or go back to the
>>>>>> old theme in your own setup - don't doom the rest of us to have to
>>>>>> go apply first impressions with that really lame setup.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As for the documentation - I'm not sure - checkout Confluence - we
>>>>>> just dug in and tried to bring the backend apps out of the early
>>>>>> 2000s instead of letting it sit stagnant.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>> Ruppert
>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>> Tim Ruppert
>>>>>> HotWax Media
>>>>>> http://www.hotwaxmedia.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>> o:801.649.6594
>>>>>> f:801.649.6595
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Oct 13, 2009, at 7:10 AM, Ruth Hoffman wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hello Tim:
>>>>>>> If this a tool for convincing people to use OFBiz, then IMO, we
>>>>>>> are way off the mark. The backend applications where the
>>>>>>> BiznessTime theme has been applied are designed for end-users who
>>>>>>> may not and probably do not have any experience with HTML or CSS.
>>>>>>> Lets not forget who our audience is here.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If the foundation, as you say is so solid (and I have not doubt
>>>>>>> that it is), then reverting back to a simpler yet more accessible
>>>>>>> theme should be the way to go.  Fancier is not always better.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On another note, could you point me to the end-user documentation
>>>>>>> covering  creating new themes. I'd be happy to try this out and
>>>>>>> post my findings.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>> Ruth
>>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>> Ruth Hoffman, Author, Mentor & OFBiz Enthusiast
>>>>>>> Ruth.Hoffman@myofbiz.com
>>>>>>> Looking for more OFBiz info, please visit my website:
>>>>>>> http://www.myofbiz.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Tim Ruppert wrote:
>>>>>>>> We exclusively use the BizznessTime theme with clients because
>>>>>>>> it's WAY easier to change, skin and adapt to everyone's liking /
>>>>>>>> look and feel.  I think it would be a huge mistake to roll it
>>>>>>>> back to the Flat Grey as we have not had any of the same problems
>>>>>>>> once everyone gets over the initial shock of seeing something
>>>>>>>> different.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If the community wants to roll it back - then go for it - but it
>>>>>>>> isn't wise.  FIX the problems that you don't like in the
>>>>>>>> BizznessTime theme, or create one of your own - it's easy to do -
>>>>>>>> this is a much more solid foundation to build on then the old
>>>>>>>> (and looking really old) theme that's been in there since the
>>>>>>>> beginning.  Have any of you tried to edit the CSS to make any
>>>>>>>> changes that might not make it so "large"?  It should be pretty
>>>>>>>> easy with this setup.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Anyways, think on it and do what you will do, but remember this
>>>>>>>> is still a tool for convincing people to use OFBiz.  I'd leave
>>>>>>>> this in place and change it to the ugly, ugly in your own
>>>>>>>> installations before I wanted to go back to Flay Grey as a sales
>>>>>>>> tool ....
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>> Ruppert
>>>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>>>> Tim Ruppert
>>>>>>>> HotWax Media
>>>>>>>> http://www.hotwaxmedia.com
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> o:801.649.6594
>>>>>>>> f:801.649.6595
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Oct 13, 2009, at 3:40 AM, Jacques Le Roux wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Hi Hans,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> So far,
>>>>>>>>> * it seems that most people find things too large and prefer to
>>>>>>>>> zoom out.
>>>>>>>>> * it seems also that not much specific bugs were reported, and
>>>>>>>>> those reported should be easily fixed (not quite sure though...)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I repeat myself about where to report about this subject :
>>>>>>>>> create a subtask at
>>>>>>>>> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/OFBIZ-2398
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> In his 1st reply Chris Snow suggested a change. But I'm not sure
>>>>>>>>> it's enough for doing the same thing as a zoom out
>>>>>>>>> Maybe we could ask Ryan Foster if it's possble to shrink the
>>>>>>>>> size (of everything ) else we may vote for the "return of Flat
>>>>>>>>> Grey" as default
>>>>>>>>> theme.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> What do you people think ?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Jacques
>>>>>>>>> PS : Hans I saw you opened a subtask for the field size issue,
>>>>>>>>> thanks!
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> From: "Hans Bakker" <mailinglist@antwebsystems.com
>>>>>>>>> <ma...@antwebsystems.com>>
>>>>>>>>>> Sure the Business theme looks good but.....
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The general problem is that the characters, fields and actually
>>>>>>>>>> everything is far too big....If i specify a field to be 2
>>>>>>>>>> characters, at
>>>>>>>>>> least 5 fit in....
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> So set the default to flat_gray in general properties is
>>>>>>>>>> perhaps better.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>>>> Hans
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 2009-10-12 at 16:19 +0200, Jacques Le Roux wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I'd like to know what the community thinks about Bizness Time
>>>>>>>>>>> as default theme.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Do you use it?
>>>>>>>>>>> Do you change for another theme ?
>>>>>>>>>>> Which one fo you prefer?
>>>>>>>>>>> Did you find bugs in one of the theme but not another?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Jacques
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>>>>>> Antwebsystems.com <http://Antwebsystems.com>: Quality OFBiz
>>>>>>>>>> services for competitive rates
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
> 

-- 
BJ Freeman
http://www.businessesnetwork.com/automation
http://bjfreeman.elance.com
http://www.linkedin.com/profile?viewProfile=&key=1237480&locale=en_US&trk=tab_pro
Systems Integrator.

Re: Default theme ?

Posted by Ruth Hoffman <rh...@aesolves.com>.

Hi Tim:
This will probably start a "flame war" (if those things still happen 
:-), but again this is all for what I feel is the betterment of the 
project. Please see my comments inline:

Tim Ruppert wrote:
> Inline
>
> Cheers,
> Ruppert
>
> On Oct 13, 2009, at 8:09 AM, Ruth Hoffman wrote:
>
>> Hi Tim:
>> I fully understand your point of view and the constraints we all 
>> labor under. Whether the old theme sucks or not is not in question here.
>>
>> First question I have for you is what "guidelines" are you referring to?
>
> Take a look at BizznessTime and then at Flat Grey and let me know when 
> you think each were designed from a look and feel perspective?  That's 
> the point here - first impressions of whether or not this project is 
> stale or not.  This is why it was developed and it can have a huge 
> impact on the people that see it for the first time.  Not to mention 
> that as I said, my customers have custom themes built on BizznessTime 
> and are happy with them ...
>
You didn't answer my question. What guidelines?
I'm not disputing that your customers have nice themes. You, or your 
company probably built them. Good for you! As a service provider, this 
attitude towards the code base works in your favor. As an end-user, 
maybe this approach towards the project code base doesn't work so well. 
Please reconsider.
>> Secondly, why should a new user have to change a theme in order to 
>> use OFBiz applications. If, as you say its easy to change a theme, 
>> then it should be incumbent on the knowledgeable experienced OFBiz 
>> user to change themes and not the new user. New users have enough on 
>> their plate just learning how the applications work.
>
> I'm talking about demo.ofbiz.org having a current looking theme so 
> that when people want to see the application for the first time, 
> they're not asking if we started with the backend design in 2001 and 
> then forgot to update it :)  If you guys want that to be a deployment 
> setting for the demo store - I'm happy to do it that way - let's just 
> not act like the old theme is what is making OFBiz happen.
>
So am I. Lets talk about the demo site. On a recent visit (2 days ago) 
what I saw was embarrassing and hence my comment about pride of ownership.

I'd like to "call you to the carpet" on making "OFBiz happen". How many 
new user's to OFBiz (I'm talking end-users) have been "convinced" to 
adopt based on theme changes? Do you even know? If you can show me the 
numbers, then I will gladly change my tune.
>> Thirdly, please don't throw around "its easy" to do something without 
>> siting references. You insult my intelligence and every other reader 
>> on this list by implying that anything concerning recent releases of 
>> OFBiz is "easy".
>
> Please Ruth - come on.  If you're not sure where the themes are, then 
> please use a browser tool to tell you where the CSS is that drives the 
> theme and tinker with it.  If I had the references for you in my hands 
> - I'll lay them out like a towel - but since I didn't, I declined to 
> send you to the wrong place.  Me and the other readers (and my 
> employees) dove in on the theme concept and tried our best to come up 
> with something quickly that would make an impact in the release.  I 
> think we accomplished that in a big way.  If it's not good, then 
> please help to make it better rather than turning back to something 
> that's not pushing forward (on the design front).
>
Tim, we are not talking about me. I know how to do this. I've spent 
several years working with all aspects of OFBiz from the front-end CSS 
to writing modifications to the Entity Engine to support database field 
types not supported by OFBiz. I'm talking about new users.

I have tried to "make it better" by submitting JIRA issues. 

How about if we start over with a design document and a baseline that we 
know works - perhaps the Flat Grey theme, and go forward from there. 
Give me developer/access rights to the code base and I'd gladly help out.
> I'd much rather see these kinks worked out - since we're only talking 
> about CSS - not the magic of the screen widget / form widget, etc.  In 
> this case, "easy" means that any web developer in the world that does 
> "Inspect Element" on Safari or anything else - will be able to see 
> where the CSS is - since that's 99% of how these themes are messed 
> with in the first place.
>
I agree with you here concerning working out the kinks. Where we diverge 
is: I don't think it is up to end-users to do testing for the project. 
Don't commit code (themes or otherwise) that has not been tested. Don't 
make changes to OFBiz until those changes have been tested. Its pretty 
simple.

Again, end-users have enough on their plate just learning the 
applications. And, perhaps more importantly, end-user's for the backend 
applications are not the same web developers you reference here.

You obviously see all this from a service provider's point of view and 
not an end-user. Please understand, I don't provide OFBiz development, 
deployment or integration services. I am an advocate for end-users. IMO, 
if we don't get more end-users looking at OFBiz, you might as well kiss 
this project good-bye.

Its all about mindshare, and while OFBiz has been good to you and 
HotWax, your attitude is very similar to the "proprietary" mindset of 
some software vendors that shall remain unnamed.

Please take off your service provider hat and look at all this from a 
potential new end-user.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Ruth
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------
>> Ruth Hoffman, Author, Mentor & OFBiz Enthusiast
>> Ruth.Hoffman@myofbiz.com
>> Looking for more OFBiz info, please visit my website: 
>> http://www.myofbiz.com
>>
>>
>>
>> Tim Ruppert wrote:
>>> We are all working within the constraints of _not_ redesigning the 
>>> entire set of backend applications - which is really what needs to 
>>> be done. The old theme sucks visually - has no spice, doesn't fit 
>>> today's look and feel guidelines AT ALL, looks really old - so I'd 
>>> say from someone who does this day in and day out - you're WAY off 
>>> when it comes to the way that people react to it (be clear, this 
>>> does not talk to using it on a day to day basis).  We've been very 
>>> successful in building themes off of Bizzness Time - please are 
>>> reacting in a really positive way.
>>>
>>> There is nothing other than a visual change on the BizznessTime 
>>> theme.  There are no other extra widgets or the like.  it's just a 
>>> reorganization of the data that's there to help give it a facelift.  
>>> I'm not talking to users - I'm talking to you and everyone else who 
>>> has issues with it.  Fix it ... or go back to the old theme in your 
>>> own setup - don't doom the rest of us to have to go apply first 
>>> impressions with that really lame setup.
>>>
>>> As for the documentation - I'm not sure - checkout Confluence - we 
>>> just dug in and tried to bring the backend apps out of the early 
>>> 2000s instead of letting it sit stagnant.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> Ruppert
>>> -- 
>>> Tim Ruppert
>>> HotWax Media
>>> http://www.hotwaxmedia.com
>>>
>>> o:801.649.6594
>>> f:801.649.6595
>>>
>>> On Oct 13, 2009, at 7:10 AM, Ruth Hoffman wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hello Tim:
>>>> If this a tool for convincing people to use OFBiz, then IMO, we are 
>>>> way off the mark. The backend applications where the BiznessTime 
>>>> theme has been applied are designed for end-users who may not and 
>>>> probably do not have any experience with HTML or CSS. Lets not 
>>>> forget who our audience is here.
>>>>
>>>> If the foundation, as you say is so solid (and I have not doubt 
>>>> that it is), then reverting back to a simpler yet more accessible 
>>>> theme should be the way to go.  Fancier is not always better.
>>>>
>>>> On another note, could you point me to the end-user documentation 
>>>> covering  creating new themes. I'd be happy to try this out and 
>>>> post my findings.
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Ruth
>>>> ----------------------------------------------------
>>>> Ruth Hoffman, Author, Mentor & OFBiz Enthusiast
>>>> Ruth.Hoffman@myofbiz.com
>>>> Looking for more OFBiz info, please visit my website: 
>>>> http://www.myofbiz.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Tim Ruppert wrote:
>>>>> We exclusively use the BizznessTime theme with clients because 
>>>>> it's WAY easier to change, skin and adapt to everyone's liking / 
>>>>> look and feel.  I think it would be a huge mistake to roll it back 
>>>>> to the Flat Grey as we have not had any of the same problems once 
>>>>> everyone gets over the initial shock of seeing something different.
>>>>>
>>>>> If the community wants to roll it back - then go for it - but it 
>>>>> isn't wise.  FIX the problems that you don't like in the 
>>>>> BizznessTime theme, or create one of your own - it's easy to do - 
>>>>> this is a much more solid foundation to build on then the old (and 
>>>>> looking really old) theme that's been in there since the 
>>>>> beginning.  Have any of you tried to edit the CSS to make any 
>>>>> changes that might not make it so "large"?  It should be pretty 
>>>>> easy with this setup.
>>>>>
>>>>> Anyways, think on it and do what you will do, but remember this is 
>>>>> still a tool for convincing people to use OFBiz.  I'd leave this 
>>>>> in place and change it to the ugly, ugly in your own installations 
>>>>> before I wanted to go back to Flay Grey as a sales tool ....
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>> Ruppert
>>>>> -- 
>>>>> Tim Ruppert
>>>>> HotWax Media
>>>>> http://www.hotwaxmedia.com
>>>>>
>>>>> o:801.649.6594
>>>>> f:801.649.6595
>>>>>
>>>>> On Oct 13, 2009, at 3:40 AM, Jacques Le Roux wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Hans,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So far,
>>>>>> * it seems that most people find things too large and prefer to 
>>>>>> zoom out.
>>>>>> * it seems also that not much specific bugs were reported, and 
>>>>>> those reported should be easily fixed (not quite sure though...)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I repeat myself about where to report about this subject : create 
>>>>>> a subtask at https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/OFBIZ-2398
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In his 1st reply Chris Snow suggested a change. But I'm not sure 
>>>>>> it's enough for doing the same thing as a zoom out
>>>>>> Maybe we could ask Ryan Foster if it's possble to shrink the size 
>>>>>> (of everything ) else we may vote for the "return of Flat Grey" 
>>>>>> as default
>>>>>> theme.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What do you people think ?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Jacques
>>>>>> PS : Hans I saw you opened a subtask for the field size issue, 
>>>>>> thanks!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> From: "Hans Bakker" <mailinglist@antwebsystems.com 
>>>>>> <ma...@antwebsystems.com>>
>>>>>>> Sure the Business theme looks good but.....
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The general problem is that the characters, fields and actually
>>>>>>> everything is far too big....If i specify a field to be 2 
>>>>>>> characters, at
>>>>>>> least 5 fit in....
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So set the default to flat_gray in general properties is perhaps 
>>>>>>> better.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>> Hans
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Mon, 2009-10-12 at 16:19 +0200, Jacques Le Roux wrote:
>>>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I'd like to know what the community thinks about Bizness Time 
>>>>>>>> as default theme.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Do you use it?
>>>>>>>> Do you change for another theme ?
>>>>>>>> Which one fo you prefer?
>>>>>>>> Did you find bugs in one of the theme but not another?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Thanks
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Jacques
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>>> Antwebsystems.com <http://Antwebsystems.com>: Quality OFBiz 
>>>>>>> services for competitive rates
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>

Re: Default theme ?

Posted by Tim Ruppert <ti...@hotwaxmedia.com>.

Inline

Cheers,
Ruppert

On Oct 13, 2009, at 8:09 AM, Ruth Hoffman wrote:

> Hi Tim:
> I fully understand your point of view and the constraints we all  
> labor under. Whether the old theme sucks or not is not in question  
> here.
>
> First question I have for you is what "guidelines" are you referring  
> to?

Take a look at BizznessTime and then at Flat Grey and let me know when  
you think each were designed from a look and feel perspective?  That's  
the point here - first impressions of whether or not this project is  
stale or not.  This is why it was developed and it can have a huge  
impact on the people that see it for the first time.  Not to mention  
that as I said, my customers have custom themes built on BizznessTime  
and are happy with them ...

> Secondly, why should a new user have to change a theme in order to  
> use OFBiz applications. If, as you say its easy to change a theme,  
> then it should be incumbent on the knowledgeable experienced OFBiz  
> user to change themes and not the new user. New users have enough on  
> their plate just learning how the applications work.

I'm talking about demo.ofbiz.org having a current looking theme so  
that when people want to see the application for the first time,  
they're not asking if we started with the backend design in 2001 and  
then forgot to update it :)  If you guys want that to be a deployment  
setting for the demo store - I'm happy to do it that way - let's just  
not act like the old theme is what is making OFBiz happen.

> Thirdly, please don't throw around "its easy" to do something  
> without siting references. You insult my intelligence and every  
> other reader on this list by implying that anything concerning  
> recent releases of OFBiz is "easy".

Please Ruth - come on.  If you're not sure where the themes are, then  
please use a browser tool to tell you where the CSS is that drives the  
theme and tinker with it.  If I had the references for you in my hands  
- I'll lay them out like a towel - but since I didn't, I declined to  
send you to the wrong place.  Me and the other readers (and my  
employees) dove in on the theme concept and tried our best to come up  
with something quickly that would make an impact in the release.  I  
think we accomplished that in a big way.  If it's not good, then  
please help to make it better rather than turning back to something  
that's not pushing forward (on the design front).

I'd much rather see these kinks worked out - since we're only talking  
about CSS - not the magic of the screen widget / form widget, etc.  In  
this case, "easy" means that any web developer in the world that does  
"Inspect Element" on Safari or anything else - will be able to see  
where the CSS is - since that's 99% of how these themes are messed  
with in the first place.

>
> Regards,
> Ruth
>
> ----------------------------------------------------
> Ruth Hoffman, Author, Mentor & OFBiz Enthusiast
> Ruth.Hoffman@myofbiz.com
> Looking for more OFBiz info, please visit my website: http://www.myofbiz.com
>
>
>
> Tim Ruppert wrote:
>> We are all working within the constraints of _not_ redesigning the  
>> entire set of backend applications - which is really what needs to  
>> be done. The old theme sucks visually - has no spice, doesn't fit  
>> today's look and feel guidelines AT ALL, looks really old - so I'd  
>> say from someone who does this day in and day out - you're WAY off  
>> when it comes to the way that people react to it (be clear, this  
>> does not talk to using it on a day to day basis).  We've been very  
>> successful in building themes off of Bizzness Time - please are  
>> reacting in a really positive way.
>>
>> There is nothing other than a visual change on the BizznessTime  
>> theme.  There are no other extra widgets or the like.  it's just a  
>> reorganization of the data that's there to help give it a  
>> facelift.  I'm not talking to users - I'm talking to you and  
>> everyone else who has issues with it.  Fix it ... or go back to the  
>> old theme in your own setup - don't doom the rest of us to have to  
>> go apply first impressions with that really lame setup.
>>
>> As for the documentation - I'm not sure - checkout Confluence - we  
>> just dug in and tried to bring the backend apps out of the early  
>> 2000s instead of letting it sit stagnant.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Ruppert
>> -- 
>> Tim Ruppert
>> HotWax Media
>> http://www.hotwaxmedia.com
>>
>> o:801.649.6594
>> f:801.649.6595
>>
>> On Oct 13, 2009, at 7:10 AM, Ruth Hoffman wrote:
>>
>>> Hello Tim:
>>> If this a tool for convincing people to use OFBiz, then IMO, we  
>>> are way off the mark. The backend applications where the  
>>> BiznessTime theme has been applied are designed for end-users who  
>>> may not and probably do not have any experience with HTML or CSS.  
>>> Lets not forget who our audience is here.
>>>
>>> If the foundation, as you say is so solid (and I have not doubt  
>>> that it is), then reverting back to a simpler yet more accessible  
>>> theme should be the way to go.  Fancier is not always better.
>>>
>>> On another note, could you point me to the end-user documentation  
>>> covering  creating new themes. I'd be happy to try this out and  
>>> post my findings.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Ruth
>>> ----------------------------------------------------
>>> Ruth Hoffman, Author, Mentor & OFBiz Enthusiast
>>> Ruth.Hoffman@myofbiz.com
>>> Looking for more OFBiz info, please visit my website: http://www.myofbiz.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Tim Ruppert wrote:
>>>> We exclusively use the BizznessTime theme with clients because  
>>>> it's WAY easier to change, skin and adapt to everyone's liking /  
>>>> look and feel.  I think it would be a huge mistake to roll it  
>>>> back to the Flat Grey as we have not had any of the same problems  
>>>> once everyone gets over the initial shock of seeing something  
>>>> different.
>>>>
>>>> If the community wants to roll it back - then go for it - but it  
>>>> isn't wise.  FIX the problems that you don't like in the  
>>>> BizznessTime theme, or create one of your own - it's easy to do -  
>>>> this is a much more solid foundation to build on then the old  
>>>> (and looking really old) theme that's been in there since the  
>>>> beginning.  Have any of you tried to edit the CSS to make any  
>>>> changes that might not make it so "large"?  It should be pretty  
>>>> easy with this setup.
>>>>
>>>> Anyways, think on it and do what you will do, but remember this  
>>>> is still a tool for convincing people to use OFBiz.  I'd leave  
>>>> this in place and change it to the ugly, ugly in your own  
>>>> installations before I wanted to go back to Flay Grey as a sales  
>>>> tool ....
>>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> Ruppert
>>>> -- 
>>>> Tim Ruppert
>>>> HotWax Media
>>>> http://www.hotwaxmedia.com
>>>>
>>>> o:801.649.6594
>>>> f:801.649.6595
>>>>
>>>> On Oct 13, 2009, at 3:40 AM, Jacques Le Roux wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi Hans,
>>>>>
>>>>> So far,
>>>>> * it seems that most people find things too large and prefer to  
>>>>> zoom out.
>>>>> * it seems also that not much specific bugs were reported, and  
>>>>> those reported should be easily fixed (not quite sure though...)
>>>>>
>>>>> I repeat myself about where to report about this subject :  
>>>>> create a subtask at https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/OFBIZ-2398
>>>>>
>>>>> In his 1st reply Chris Snow suggested a change. But I'm not sure  
>>>>> it's enough for doing the same thing as a zoom out
>>>>> Maybe we could ask Ryan Foster if it's possble to shrink the  
>>>>> size (of everything ) else we may vote for the "return of Flat  
>>>>> Grey" as default
>>>>> theme.
>>>>>
>>>>> What do you people think ?
>>>>>
>>>>> Jacques
>>>>> PS : Hans I saw you opened a subtask for the field size issue,  
>>>>> thanks!
>>>>>
>>>>> From: "Hans Bakker" <mailinglist@antwebsystems.com <mailto:mailinglist@antwebsystems.com 
>>>>> >>
>>>>>> Sure the Business theme looks good but.....
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The general problem is that the characters, fields and actually
>>>>>> everything is far too big....If i specify a field to be 2  
>>>>>> characters, at
>>>>>> least 5 fit in....
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So set the default to flat_gray in general properties is  
>>>>>> perhaps better.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>> Hans
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mon, 2009-10-12 at 16:19 +0200, Jacques Le Roux wrote:
>>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'd like to know what the community thinks about Bizness Time  
>>>>>>> as default theme.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Do you use it?
>>>>>>> Do you change for another theme ?
>>>>>>> Which one fo you prefer?
>>>>>>> Did you find bugs in one of the theme but not another?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Jacques
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>> Antwebsystems.com <http://Antwebsystems.com>: Quality OFBiz  
>>>>>> services for competitive rates
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>

Re: Default theme ?

Posted by Bruno Busco <br...@gmail.com>.

There is the possibility, in the back-office, to change the screen
used to display a category detail in the front store.
The default is the "categorydetail" in the
component://ecommerce/widget/CatalogScreens.xml file. This is the
screen that renders the category as a simple list (as it was).
I did create an additional screen "categorydetailmatrix" in the same
file and created seed data to have it loaded.

If you want to change this simply delete the entry
    <ProductCategory productCategoryId="PROMOTIONS"
productCategoryTypeId="CATALOG_CATEGORY"
detailScreen="component://ecommerce/widget/CatalogScreens.xml#categorydetailmatrix"/>

in the specialpurpose\ecommerce\data\DemoProduct.xml file and the old
screen will be used again.
If you want to do a test without changing the seed data delete the
"Detail screen" field here
https://localhost:8443/catalog/control/EditCategory?CATALOG_TOP_CATEGORY=PROMOTIONS&productCategoryId=PROMOTIONS

Hope this helps.
-Bruno




2009/10/15 Ryan Foster <ry...@hotwaxmedia.com>:
> I'll let you have the last on this, as we are in complete agreement on those
> points.  You are right about one thing definitely, a lot of your very valid
> concerns about the ecommerce web store OOTB have been lost in the noise.
>
> Anil and his group (of which I have been a part of), have been making small,
> incremental improvements to the ecommerce front-end, but I would love to see
> the kind of awesome community collaboration that drove the 9.04 release.
>  Between the design collaboration with Ean and his guys, and Hans, Jacques,
> Bruno and so many others pitching in on the dev side, we ended up with a
> public facing site, documentation site, nightly builds and logs site, and
> demo application site that was cohesive, consistent, modern, and relevant.
>  People took notice, and they were impressed.  In fact, the only thing
> missing from all this was a polished, re-designed, store front demo.
>
> We have beat this to death.  I think we as a community need to say now let's
> pull the trigger.  Redesign the ecommerce front-end.  Make a big change.
>  Make people notice.
>
> To quote Forrest Gump (in my best rural Alabama southern drawl): "And that's
> really all I got to say about that."
>
> Ryan Foster
> HotWax Media
> 801.671.0769
> ryan.foster@hotwaxmedia.com
>
>
>
>
> On Oct 15, 2009, at 10:24 AM, Ruth Hoffman wrote:
>
>> Hi Ryan:
>>
>> Not that I need to get in the last word...
>>
>> I like your tag lines! Your design points are valid and, for what it is
>> worth, are now new data points for my consideration going forward.
>>
>> I'm all about innovation. My original point was not that innovation,
>> progress or change for that matter isn't good. My original point - which got
>> lost in the noise - was that building something and then deploying that
>> "something"  without thorough testing is not good. In fact, the consequences
>> of doing that in this very competitive market, could be disastrous. First
>> impressions whether we like it or not, are lasting. And when seemingly
>> simple things don't work as one would expect - for example on the ecommerce
>> web store OOTB - that is not good.
>>
>> Anyhow, I think we beat this to death. Thanks for the discussion.
>>
>> Best Regards,
>> Ruth
>>
>> Ryan Foster wrote:
>>>
>>> Inline...
>>>
>>> Ryan Foster
>>> HotWax Media
>>> 801.671.0769
>>> ryan.foster@hotwaxmedia.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Oct 14, 2009, at 3:12 PM, Ruth Hoffman wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hello Ryan:
>>>> Thanks so much for taking the time to inform the list. I personally
>>>> think that front-end website design and implementation is far more difficult
>>>> to master then is commonly acknowledged. I applaud your efforts. At no time
>>>> was I trying to disparage or dismiss any of the OFBiz work that you or your
>>>> colleagues have contributed.
>>>
>>> No offense taken.  Like I said, I was just trying to offer some
>>> additional insight into the discussion.
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Please see my other comments inline:
>>>>
>>>> Ryan Foster wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Since my colleagues and I were largely responsible for the initial
>>>>> design of BizznessTime, which borrows very heavily from Brainfood's public
>>>>> facing site design (thanks guys!), I feel a certain amount of obligation to
>>>>> defend my position.  Let me first start off by saying thank you all very
>>>>> much for this discussion on user interface in general and for the feedback
>>>>> on the BizznessTime theme.  I sometimes feel like a lone wolf in a sea of
>>>>> developers immensely more talented than me when it comes to back-end
>>>>> programming, so I think a small amount of front-end discussion is
>>>>> refreshing.  I take a huge amount of pride in my work, and I welcome any and
>>>>> all feedback, positive or negative, that will allow me to enhance the user
>>>>> experience
>>>>
>>>> IMO, the "theme" concept is an excellent addition to OFBiz.
>>>>>
>>>>> Secondly, many of the key elements of the design were clearly and
>>>>> carefully thought out, and are based on the work, research, and testing of
>>>>> respected organizations and individuals in user experience and interaction
>>>>> design:
>>>>>
>>>> Obviously the design was clearly and carefully thought out. That was
>>>> never in question. Again, I applaud your efforts. Thank you.
>>>>>
>>>>> In regards to the school of thought that all of the important content
>>>>> should be "above the fold" and that users shouldn't be required, do not like
>>>>> to scroll, will not scroll, etc; there has been extensive research that
>>>>> tends to suggest that this school of thought is outdated.  Jacob Nielsen
>>>>> discussed this back in 1997(!).  See the following links for support:
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for the references. I have not seen any of these specifically,
>>>> although I have seen other statistical reports that are all over the map as
>>>> far as analyzing results. Just an FYI:  All of the content writers and site
>>>> designers that I work with insist that best practice is to have the most
>>>> compelling information above the fold. These people are in the trenches
>>>> day-in and day-out and are not selling a service.  Just another data point.
>>>
>>> Yes, important information should near the top of the page, I am not
>>> disputing this.  What I am saying is "There is no fold", and there hasn't
>>> been one for quite some time.  This term was ported from newspaper print
>>> design in an attempt to explain a new medium and technology in terms that
>>> were familiar to designers entering this new media arena.  But the internet
>>> is not new anymore, and between Rich Media enabled mobile phones,
>>> integrated/on demand television, kiosk displays, laptops, and 42-inch cinema
>>> screen monitors, it is simply not relevant to modern web design and
>>> development anymore.  Honestly, between online websites, news portals,
>>> cross-channel aggregation, bloggers, and RSS feeds, I am not sure that
>>> newspapers even use the term "above the fold" anymore!  :)
>>>
>>> FYI: Last time I checked, content writing and web design were service
>>> based businesses.  I am also currently closing out a 15 hour day of
>>> designing/building websites and writing content for my clients, so I think
>>> that qualifies me as being in the trenches.
>>>
>>>>> http://www.useit.com/alertbox/9712a.html
>>>>> http://blog.clicktale.com/2006/12/23/unfolding-the-fold/
>>>>>
>>>>> http://blog.clicktale.com/2007/10/05/clicktale-scrolling-research-report-v20-part-1-visibility-and-scroll-reach/
>>>>>
>>>>> http://blog.clicktale.com/2007/12/04/clicktale-scrolling-research-report-v20-part-2-visitor-attention-and-web-page-exposure/
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.uie.com/brainsparks/2006/08/02/utilizing-the-cut-off-look-to-encourage-users-to-scroll/
>>>>> http://www.boxesandarrows.com/view/blasting-the-myth-of
>>>>>
>>>>> Next, as far as the applications drop down menu, this concept is again
>>>>> based on modern web trends and current research.  Companies such as Target,
>>>>> Walmart, Microsoft, OfficeMax, OfficeDepot, EMC, MTV, Ruby on Rails, etc.
>>>>> use so called "Mega Dropdowns" in their sites and applications.  Our friends
>>>>> in the community over at Alexander Interactive have been cited numerous
>>>>> times for the navigation they developed for ActionEnvelope.  I agree that
>>>>> showing the menu on hover rather than on click would be an enhancement, but
>>>>> I also don't think that having to click is a bad thing either.  Again, see
>>>>> the following resources:
>>>>>
>>>> It remains to be seen just how successful the "Mega Dropdowns" are. Just
>>>> because Target, Microsoft and Walmart use them, doesn't mean they work in
>>>> terms of site usability. That is not to say that some menu dropdowns are not
>>>> useful. I use them often.
>>>>
>>>> I would argue that a better example of a site to emulate is that of a
>>>> company that does all of its business on the Web - like Amazon. Yes, they
>>>> use dropdowns, but they are clearly marked as being dropdowns and not
>>>> obscured by other site elements.
>>>
>>> I wouldn't so easily discount the millions of dollars that these sites
>>> generate just because they have a brick-and-mortar presence.  But that is
>>> not really the point.  You will never make any progress if you just copy
>>> someone else's model.
>>>
>>> "Don't emulate - innovate. Then test."
>>>
>>> Oooh, that sounds kind of catchy. Is it too early to copyright that? ;)
>>>
>>> Actually a more appropriate A/B phrase would be:
>>>
>>> "Emulate. Innovate. Test."
>>>
>>> There we go, that sounds more like a tagline...
>>>
>>>>
>>>>> http://www.uipattern.com/mega-drop-downs/
>>>>> http://www.useit.com/alertbox/mega-dropdown-menus.html
>>>>> http://www.sitepoint.com/blogs/2009/03/30/mega-drop-down-menus/
>>>>>
>>>>> http://37signals.com/svn/posts/1647-mega-drop-down-navigation-at-basecamp-and-rails-guides-site
>>>>> http://guides.rubyonrails.org/
>>>>>
>>>>> Finally, as far as the statement "lets not forget who our audience is",
>>>>> I am acutely aware of who are audience is.  We have developed several client
>>>>> branded themes based on the BizznessTime theme, and have received very
>>>>> positive feedback.  When our clients are happy, I am happy.  You are right
>>>>> that fancier isn't always better, there is research suggesting that doesn't
>>>>> matter.  It may not be better, but people think that it is:
>>>>>
>>>> You have taken the out-of-the-box themes and branded them. You were able
>>>> to do that because you know how to modify and change themes. A new user (one
>>>> who downloads a nightly build) will not know how to do this. That is my
>>>> target audience.
>>>
>>> I think that is where our disconnect is.  That might be your target
>>> audience, but that is generally not mine, my colleague's, or my employer's
>>> target audience.  The decision maker in an enterprise is usually not the
>>> person who downloads a nightly build. My focus and intent is to design an
>>> application that a CEO, CTO, Operations Manager, etc. can look at and feel
>>> confident that his/her 10, 100, 1000, etc. employees will be able to
>>> comfortably and effectively use it, and that it will power a site that
>>> his/her (hopefully) millions of customers will use and return to
>>> consistently.  They are the ones that will ultimately drive the support and
>>> distribution of OFBiz.
>>>
>>>>> http://www.alistapart.com/articles/indefenseofeyecandy
>>>>
>>>> Big fan of alistapart.com. Can't go wrong following that lead.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.consumerwebwatch.org/news/report3_credibilityresearch/stanfordPTL.pdf
>>>>>
>>>>> http://ist.psu.edu/faculty_pages/jjansen/academic/pres/chi2007/jansen_branding_of_search_engines.pdf
>>>>> http://sigchi.org/chi97/proceedings/paper/nt.htm
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.experiencedynamics.com/sites/default/files/spillers-emotiondesign-proceedings.pdf
>>>>>
>>>>> I do agree with many points that have been made so far, and again, I
>>>>> appreciate the feedback.  The font-size is a little too big. The padding in
>>>>> and around the inputs and submit buttons can be dialed back a bit.  I am
>>>>> working on a patch right now that incorporates this feedback, as well as
>>>>> additional feedback and discoveries from the themes we have built based on
>>>>> the original BizznessTime theme.
>>>>
>>>> I will continue to give feedback as long as you listen.
>>>> And again, thanks for your efforts.
>>>> Ruth
>>>
>>> Keep it coming Ruth.  I appreciate you taking the time.
>>>
>>>>> I apologize for the very long-winded email, but I just wanted to give
>>>>> the community some insight into my thought process and design methodologies.
>>>>>  I hope this helps the discussion.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>
>>>>> Ryan Foster
>>>>> HotWax Media
>>>>> 801.671.0769
>>>>> ryan.foster@hotwaxmedia.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Oct 13, 2009, at 8:09 AM, Ruth Hoffman wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Tim:
>>>>>> I fully understand your point of view and the constraints we all labor
>>>>>> under. Whether the old theme sucks or not is not in question here.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> First question I have for you is what "guidelines" are you referring
>>>>>> to?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Secondly, why should a new user have to change a theme in order to use
>>>>>> OFBiz applications. If, as you say its easy to change a theme, then it
>>>>>> should be incumbent on the knowledgeable experienced OFBiz user to change
>>>>>> themes and not the new user. New users have enough on their plate just
>>>>>> learning how the applications work.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thirdly, please don't throw around "its easy" to do something without
>>>>>> siting references. You insult my intelligence and every other reader on this
>>>>>> list by implying that anything concerning recent releases of OFBiz is
>>>>>> "easy".
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>> Ruth
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------
>>>>>> Ruth Hoffman, Author, Mentor & OFBiz Enthusiast
>>>>>> Ruth.Hoffman@myofbiz.com
>>>>>> Looking for more OFBiz info, please visit my website:
>>>>>> http://www.myofbiz.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Tim Ruppert wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> We are all working within the constraints of _not_ redesigning the
>>>>>>> entire set of backend applications - which is really what needs to be done.
>>>>>>> The old theme sucks visually - has no spice, doesn't fit today's look and
>>>>>>> feel guidelines AT ALL, looks really old - so I'd say from someone who does
>>>>>>> this day in and day out - you're WAY off when it comes to the way that
>>>>>>> people react to it (be clear, this does not talk to using it on a day to day
>>>>>>> basis).  We've been very successful in building themes off of Bizzness Time
>>>>>>> - please are reacting in a really positive way.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There is nothing other than a visual change on the BizznessTime
>>>>>>> theme.  There are no other extra widgets or the like.  it's just a
>>>>>>> reorganization of the data that's there to help give it a facelift.  I'm not
>>>>>>> talking to users - I'm talking to you and everyone else who has issues with
>>>>>>> it.  Fix it ... or go back to the old theme in your own setup - don't doom
>>>>>>> the rest of us to have to go apply first impressions with that really lame
>>>>>>> setup.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As for the documentation - I'm not sure - checkout Confluence - we
>>>>>>> just dug in and tried to bring the backend apps out of the early 2000s
>>>>>>> instead of letting it sit stagnant.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>> Ruppert
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Tim Ruppert
>>>>>>> HotWax Media
>>>>>>> http://www.hotwaxmedia.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> o:801.649.6594
>>>>>>> f:801.649.6595
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Oct 13, 2009, at 7:10 AM, Ruth Hoffman wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hello Tim:
>>>>>>>> If this a tool for convincing people to use OFBiz, then IMO, we are
>>>>>>>> way off the mark. The backend applications where the BiznessTime theme has
>>>>>>>> been applied are designed for end-users who may not and probably do not have
>>>>>>>> any experience with HTML or CSS. Lets not forget who our audience is here.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If the foundation, as you say is so solid (and I have not doubt that
>>>>>>>> it is), then reverting back to a simpler yet more accessible theme should be
>>>>>>>> the way to go.  Fancier is not always better.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On another note, could you point me to the end-user documentation
>>>>>>>> covering  creating new themes. I'd be happy to try this out and post my
>>>>>>>> findings.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>> Ruth
>>>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>> Ruth Hoffman, Author, Mentor & OFBiz Enthusiast
>>>>>>>> Ruth.Hoffman@myofbiz.com
>>>>>>>> Looking for more OFBiz info, please visit my website:
>>>>>>>> http://www.myofbiz.com
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Tim Ruppert wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> We exclusively use the BizznessTime theme with clients because it's
>>>>>>>>> WAY easier to change, skin and adapt to everyone's liking / look and feel.
>>>>>>>>>  I think it would be a huge mistake to roll it back to the Flat Grey as we
>>>>>>>>> have not had any of the same problems once everyone gets over the initial
>>>>>>>>> shock of seeing something different.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> If the community wants to roll it back - then go for it - but it
>>>>>>>>> isn't wise.  FIX the problems that you don't like in the BizznessTime theme,
>>>>>>>>> or create one of your own - it's easy to do - this is a much more solid
>>>>>>>>> foundation to build on then the old (and looking really old) theme that's
>>>>>>>>> been in there since the beginning.  Have any of you tried to edit the CSS to
>>>>>>>>> make any changes that might not make it so "large"?  It should be pretty
>>>>>>>>> easy with this setup.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Anyways, think on it and do what you will do, but remember this is
>>>>>>>>> still a tool for convincing people to use OFBiz.  I'd leave this in place
>>>>>>>>> and change it to the ugly, ugly in your own installations before I wanted to
>>>>>>>>> go back to Flay Grey as a sales tool ....
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>>> Ruppert
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> Tim Ruppert
>>>>>>>>> HotWax Media
>>>>>>>>> http://www.hotwaxmedia.com
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> o:801.649.6594
>>>>>>>>> f:801.649.6595
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Oct 13, 2009, at 3:40 AM, Jacques Le Roux wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Hi Hans,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> So far,
>>>>>>>>>> * it seems that most people find things too large and prefer to
>>>>>>>>>> zoom out.
>>>>>>>>>> * it seems also that not much specific bugs were reported, and
>>>>>>>>>> those reported should be easily fixed (not quite sure though...)
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I repeat myself about where to report about this subject : create
>>>>>>>>>> a subtask at https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/OFBIZ-2398
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> In his 1st reply Chris Snow suggested a change. But I'm not sure
>>>>>>>>>> it's enough for doing the same thing as a zoom out
>>>>>>>>>> Maybe we could ask Ryan Foster if it's possble to shrink the size
>>>>>>>>>> (of everything ) else we may vote for the "return of Flat Grey" as default
>>>>>>>>>> theme.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> What do you people think ?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Jacques
>>>>>>>>>> PS : Hans I saw you opened a subtask for the field size issue,
>>>>>>>>>> thanks!
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> From: "Hans Bakker" <mailinglist@antwebsystems.com
>>>>>>>>>> <ma...@antwebsystems.com>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Sure the Business theme looks good but.....
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The general problem is that the characters, fields and actually
>>>>>>>>>>> everything is far too big....If i specify a field to be 2
>>>>>>>>>>> characters, at
>>>>>>>>>>> least 5 fit in....
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> So set the default to flat_gray in general properties is perhaps
>>>>>>>>>>> better.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>>>>> Hans
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 2009-10-12 at 16:19 +0200, Jacques Le Roux wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I'd like to know what the community thinks about Bizness Time as
>>>>>>>>>>>> default theme.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Do you use it?
>>>>>>>>>>>> Do you change for another theme ?
>>>>>>>>>>>> Which one fo you prefer?
>>>>>>>>>>>> Did you find bugs in one of the theme but not another?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Jacques
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>> Antwebsystems.com <http://Antwebsystems.com>: Quality OFBiz
>>>>>>>>>>> services for competitive rates
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>
>
>

Re: Default theme ?

Posted by Ryan Foster <ry...@hotwaxmedia.com>.

I'll let you have the last on this, as we are in complete agreement on  
those points.  You are right about one thing definitely, a lot of your  
very valid concerns about the ecommerce web store OOTB have been lost  
in the noise.

Anil and his group (of which I have been a part of), have been making  
small, incremental improvements to the ecommerce front-end, but I  
would love to see the kind of awesome community collaboration that  
drove the 9.04 release.  Between the design collaboration with Ean and  
his guys, and Hans, Jacques, Bruno and so many others pitching in on  
the dev side, we ended up with a public facing site, documentation  
site, nightly builds and logs site, and demo application site that was  
cohesive, consistent, modern, and relevant.  People took notice, and  
they were impressed.  In fact, the only thing missing from all this  
was a polished, re-designed, store front demo.

We have beat this to death.  I think we as a community need to say now  
let's pull the trigger.  Redesign the ecommerce front-end.  Make a big  
change.  Make people notice.

To quote Forrest Gump (in my best rural Alabama southern drawl): "And  
that's really all I got to say about that."

Ryan Foster
HotWax Media
801.671.0769
ryan.foster@hotwaxmedia.com




On Oct 15, 2009, at 10:24 AM, Ruth Hoffman wrote:

> Hi Ryan:
>
> Not that I need to get in the last word...
>
> I like your tag lines! Your design points are valid and, for what it  
> is worth, are now new data points for my consideration going forward.
>
> I'm all about innovation. My original point was not that innovation,  
> progress or change for that matter isn't good. My original point -  
> which got lost in the noise - was that building something and then  
> deploying that "something"  without thorough testing is not good. In  
> fact, the consequences of doing that in this very competitive  
> market, could be disastrous. First impressions whether we like it or  
> not, are lasting. And when seemingly simple things don't work as one  
> would expect - for example on the ecommerce web store OOTB - that is  
> not good.
>
> Anyhow, I think we beat this to death. Thanks for the discussion.
>
> Best Regards,
> Ruth
>
> Ryan Foster wrote:
>> Inline...
>>
>> Ryan Foster
>> HotWax Media
>> 801.671.0769
>> ryan.foster@hotwaxmedia.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Oct 14, 2009, at 3:12 PM, Ruth Hoffman wrote:
>>
>>> Hello Ryan:
>>> Thanks so much for taking the time to inform the list. I  
>>> personally think that front-end website design and implementation  
>>> is far more difficult to master then is commonly acknowledged. I  
>>> applaud your efforts. At no time was I trying to disparage or  
>>> dismiss any of the OFBiz work that you or your colleagues have  
>>> contributed.
>>
>> No offense taken.  Like I said, I was just trying to offer some  
>> additional insight into the discussion.
>>
>>>
>>> Please see my other comments inline:
>>>
>>> Ryan Foster wrote:
>>>> Since my colleagues and I were largely responsible for the  
>>>> initial design of BizznessTime, which borrows very heavily from  
>>>> Brainfood's public facing site design (thanks guys!), I feel a  
>>>> certain amount of obligation to defend my position.  Let me first  
>>>> start off by saying thank you all very much for this discussion  
>>>> on user interface in general and for the feedback on the  
>>>> BizznessTime theme.  I sometimes feel like a lone wolf in a sea  
>>>> of developers immensely more talented than me when it comes to  
>>>> back-end programming, so I think a small amount of front-end  
>>>> discussion is refreshing.  I take a huge amount of pride in my  
>>>> work, and I welcome any and all feedback, positive or negative,  
>>>> that will allow me to enhance the user experience
>>> IMO, the "theme" concept is an excellent addition to OFBiz.
>>>> Secondly, many of the key elements of the design were clearly and  
>>>> carefully thought out, and are based on the work, research, and  
>>>> testing of respected organizations and individuals in user  
>>>> experience and interaction design:
>>>>
>>> Obviously the design was clearly and carefully thought out. That  
>>> was never in question. Again, I applaud your efforts. Thank you.
>>>> In regards to the school of thought that all of the important  
>>>> content should be "above the fold" and that users shouldn't be  
>>>> required, do not like to scroll, will not scroll, etc; there has  
>>>> been extensive research that tends to suggest that this school of  
>>>> thought is outdated.  Jacob Nielsen discussed this back in 1997 
>>>> (!).  See the following links for support:
>>> Thanks for the references. I have not seen any of these  
>>> specifically, although I have seen other statistical reports that  
>>> are all over the map as far as analyzing results. Just an FYI:   
>>> All of the content writers and site designers that I work with  
>>> insist that best practice is to have the most compelling  
>>> information above the fold. These people are in the trenches day- 
>>> in and day-out and are not selling a service.  Just another data  
>>> point.
>>
>> Yes, important information should near the top of the page, I am  
>> not disputing this.  What I am saying is "There is no fold", and  
>> there hasn't been one for quite some time.  This term was ported  
>> from newspaper print design in an attempt to explain a new medium  
>> and technology in terms that were familiar to designers entering  
>> this new media arena.  But the internet is not new anymore, and  
>> between Rich Media enabled mobile phones, integrated/on demand  
>> television, kiosk displays, laptops, and 42-inch cinema screen  
>> monitors, it is simply not relevant to modern web design and  
>> development anymore.  Honestly, between online websites, news  
>> portals, cross-channel aggregation, bloggers, and RSS feeds, I am  
>> not sure that newspapers even use the term "above the fold"  
>> anymore!  :)
>>
>> FYI: Last time I checked, content writing and web design were  
>> service based businesses.  I am also currently closing out a 15  
>> hour day of designing/building websites and writing content for my  
>> clients, so I think that qualifies me as being in the trenches.
>>
>>>> http://www.useit.com/alertbox/9712a.html
>>>> http://blog.clicktale.com/2006/12/23/unfolding-the-fold/
>>>> http://blog.clicktale.com/2007/10/05/clicktale-scrolling-research-report-v20-part-1-visibility-and-scroll-reach/
>>>> http://blog.clicktale.com/2007/12/04/clicktale-scrolling-research-report-v20-part-2-visitor-attention-and-web-page-exposure/
>>>> http://www.uie.com/brainsparks/2006/08/02/utilizing-the-cut-off-look-to-encourage-users-to-scroll/
>>>> http://www.boxesandarrows.com/view/blasting-the-myth-of
>>>>
>>>> Next, as far as the applications drop down menu, this concept is  
>>>> again based on modern web trends and current research.  Companies  
>>>> such as Target, Walmart, Microsoft, OfficeMax, OfficeDepot, EMC,  
>>>> MTV, Ruby on Rails, etc. use so called "Mega Dropdowns" in their  
>>>> sites and applications.  Our friends in the community over at  
>>>> Alexander Interactive have been cited numerous times for the  
>>>> navigation they developed for ActionEnvelope.  I agree that  
>>>> showing the menu on hover rather than on click would be an  
>>>> enhancement, but I also don't think that having to click is a bad  
>>>> thing either.  Again, see the following resources:
>>>>
>>> It remains to be seen just how successful the "Mega Dropdowns"  
>>> are. Just because Target, Microsoft and Walmart use them, doesn't  
>>> mean they work in terms of site usability. That is not to say that  
>>> some menu dropdowns are not useful. I use them often.
>>>
>>> I would argue that a better example of a site to emulate is that  
>>> of a company that does all of its business on the Web - like  
>>> Amazon. Yes, they use dropdowns, but they are clearly marked as  
>>> being dropdowns and not obscured by other site elements.
>>
>> I wouldn't so easily discount the millions of dollars that these  
>> sites generate just because they have a brick-and-mortar presence.   
>> But that is not really the point.  You will never make any progress  
>> if you just copy someone else's model.
>>
>> "Don't emulate - innovate. Then test."
>>
>> Oooh, that sounds kind of catchy. Is it too early to copyright  
>> that? ;)
>>
>> Actually a more appropriate A/B phrase would be:
>>
>> "Emulate. Innovate. Test."
>>
>> There we go, that sounds more like a tagline...
>>
>>>
>>>> http://www.uipattern.com/mega-drop-downs/
>>>> http://www.useit.com/alertbox/mega-dropdown-menus.html
>>>> http://www.sitepoint.com/blogs/2009/03/30/mega-drop-down-menus/
>>>> http://37signals.com/svn/posts/1647-mega-drop-down-navigation-at-basecamp-and-rails-guides-site
>>>> http://guides.rubyonrails.org/
>>>>
>>>> Finally, as far as the statement "lets not forget who our  
>>>> audience is", I am acutely aware of who are audience is.  We have  
>>>> developed several client branded themes based on the BizznessTime  
>>>> theme, and have received very positive feedback.  When our  
>>>> clients are happy, I am happy.  You are right that fancier isn't  
>>>> always better, there is research suggesting that doesn't matter.   
>>>> It may not be better, but people think that it is:
>>>>
>>> You have taken the out-of-the-box themes and branded them. You  
>>> were able to do that because you know how to modify and change  
>>> themes. A new user (one who downloads a nightly build) will not  
>>> know how to do this. That is my target audience.
>>
>> I think that is where our disconnect is.  That might be your target  
>> audience, but that is generally not mine, my colleague's, or my  
>> employer's target audience.  The decision maker in an enterprise is  
>> usually not the person who downloads a nightly build. My focus and  
>> intent is to design an application that a CEO, CTO, Operations  
>> Manager, etc. can look at and feel confident that his/her 10, 100,  
>> 1000, etc. employees will be able to comfortably and effectively  
>> use it, and that it will power a site that his/her (hopefully)  
>> millions of customers will use and return to consistently.  They  
>> are the ones that will ultimately drive the support and  
>> distribution of OFBiz.
>>
>>>> http://www.alistapart.com/articles/indefenseofeyecandy
>>> Big fan of alistapart.com. Can't go wrong following that lead.
>>>> http://www.consumerwebwatch.org/news/report3_credibilityresearch/stanfordPTL.pdf
>>>> http://ist.psu.edu/faculty_pages/jjansen/academic/pres/chi2007/jansen_branding_of_search_engines.pdf
>>>> http://sigchi.org/chi97/proceedings/paper/nt.htm
>>>> http://www.experiencedynamics.com/sites/default/files/spillers-emotiondesign-proceedings.pdf
>>>>
>>>> I do agree with many points that have been made so far, and  
>>>> again, I appreciate the feedback.  The font-size is a little too  
>>>> big. The padding in and around the inputs and submit buttons can  
>>>> be dialed back a bit.  I am working on a patch right now that  
>>>> incorporates this feedback, as well as additional feedback and  
>>>> discoveries from the themes we have built based on the original  
>>>> BizznessTime theme.
>>> I will continue to give feedback as long as you listen.
>>> And again, thanks for your efforts.
>>> Ruth
>>
>> Keep it coming Ruth.  I appreciate you taking the time.
>>
>>>> I apologize for the very long-winded email, but I just wanted to  
>>>> give the community some insight into my thought process and  
>>>> design methodologies.  I hope this helps the discussion.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>>
>>>> Ryan Foster
>>>> HotWax Media
>>>> 801.671.0769
>>>> ryan.foster@hotwaxmedia.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Oct 13, 2009, at 8:09 AM, Ruth Hoffman wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi Tim:
>>>>> I fully understand your point of view and the constraints we all  
>>>>> labor under. Whether the old theme sucks or not is not in  
>>>>> question here.
>>>>>
>>>>> First question I have for you is what "guidelines" are you  
>>>>> referring to?
>>>>>
>>>>> Secondly, why should a new user have to change a theme in order  
>>>>> to use OFBiz applications. If, as you say its easy to change a  
>>>>> theme, then it should be incumbent on the knowledgeable  
>>>>> experienced OFBiz user to change themes and not the new user.  
>>>>> New users have enough on their plate just learning how the  
>>>>> applications work.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thirdly, please don't throw around "its easy" to do something  
>>>>> without siting references. You insult my intelligence and every  
>>>>> other reader on this list by implying that anything concerning  
>>>>> recent releases of OFBiz is "easy".
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>> Ruth
>>>>>
>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------
>>>>> Ruth Hoffman, Author, Mentor & OFBiz Enthusiast
>>>>> Ruth.Hoffman@myofbiz.com
>>>>> Looking for more OFBiz info, please visit my website: http://www.myofbiz.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Tim Ruppert wrote:
>>>>>> We are all working within the constraints of _not_ redesigning  
>>>>>> the entire set of backend applications - which is really what  
>>>>>> needs to be done. The old theme sucks visually - has no spice,  
>>>>>> doesn't fit today's look and feel guidelines AT ALL, looks  
>>>>>> really old - so I'd say from someone who does this day in and  
>>>>>> day out - you're WAY off when it comes to the way that people  
>>>>>> react to it (be clear, this does not talk to using it on a day  
>>>>>> to day basis).  We've been very successful in building themes  
>>>>>> off of Bizzness Time - please are reacting in a really positive  
>>>>>> way.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There is nothing other than a visual change on the BizznessTime  
>>>>>> theme.  There are no other extra widgets or the like.  it's  
>>>>>> just a reorganization of the data that's there to help give it  
>>>>>> a facelift.  I'm not talking to users - I'm talking to you and  
>>>>>> everyone else who has issues with it.  Fix it ... or go back to  
>>>>>> the old theme in your own setup - don't doom the rest of us to  
>>>>>> have to go apply first impressions with that really lame setup.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As for the documentation - I'm not sure - checkout Confluence -  
>>>>>> we just dug in and tried to bring the backend apps out of the  
>>>>>> early 2000s instead of letting it sit stagnant.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>> Ruppert
>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>> Tim Ruppert
>>>>>> HotWax Media
>>>>>> http://www.hotwaxmedia.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>> o:801.649.6594
>>>>>> f:801.649.6595
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Oct 13, 2009, at 7:10 AM, Ruth Hoffman wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hello Tim:
>>>>>>> If this a tool for convincing people to use OFBiz, then IMO,  
>>>>>>> we are way off the mark. The backend applications where the  
>>>>>>> BiznessTime theme has been applied are designed for end-users  
>>>>>>> who may not and probably do not have any experience with HTML  
>>>>>>> or CSS. Lets not forget who our audience is here.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If the foundation, as you say is so solid (and I have not  
>>>>>>> doubt that it is), then reverting back to a simpler yet more  
>>>>>>> accessible theme should be the way to go.  Fancier is not  
>>>>>>> always better.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On another note, could you point me to the end-user  
>>>>>>> documentation covering  creating new themes. I'd be happy to  
>>>>>>> try this out and post my findings.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>> Ruth
>>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>> Ruth Hoffman, Author, Mentor & OFBiz Enthusiast
>>>>>>> Ruth.Hoffman@myofbiz.com
>>>>>>> Looking for more OFBiz info, please visit my website: http://www.myofbiz.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Tim Ruppert wrote:
>>>>>>>> We exclusively use the BizznessTime theme with clients  
>>>>>>>> because it's WAY easier to change, skin and adapt to  
>>>>>>>> everyone's liking / look and feel.  I think it would be a  
>>>>>>>> huge mistake to roll it back to the Flat Grey as we have not  
>>>>>>>> had any of the same problems once everyone gets over the  
>>>>>>>> initial shock of seeing something different.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If the community wants to roll it back - then go for it - but  
>>>>>>>> it isn't wise.  FIX the problems that you don't like in the  
>>>>>>>> BizznessTime theme, or create one of your own - it's easy to  
>>>>>>>> do - this is a much more solid foundation to build on then  
>>>>>>>> the old (and looking really old) theme that's been in there  
>>>>>>>> since the beginning.  Have any of you tried to edit the CSS  
>>>>>>>> to make any changes that might not make it so "large"?  It  
>>>>>>>> should be pretty easy with this setup.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Anyways, think on it and do what you will do, but remember  
>>>>>>>> this is still a tool for convincing people to use OFBiz.  I'd  
>>>>>>>> leave this in place and change it to the ugly, ugly in your  
>>>>>>>> own installations before I wanted to go back to Flay Grey as  
>>>>>>>> a sales tool ....
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>> Ruppert
>>>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>>>> Tim Ruppert
>>>>>>>> HotWax Media
>>>>>>>> http://www.hotwaxmedia.com
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> o:801.649.6594
>>>>>>>> f:801.649.6595
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Oct 13, 2009, at 3:40 AM, Jacques Le Roux wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Hi Hans,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> So far,
>>>>>>>>> * it seems that most people find things too large and prefer  
>>>>>>>>> to zoom out.
>>>>>>>>> * it seems also that not much specific bugs were reported,  
>>>>>>>>> and those reported should be easily fixed (not quite sure  
>>>>>>>>> though...)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I repeat myself about where to report about this subject :  
>>>>>>>>> create a subtask at https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/OFBIZ-2398
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> In his 1st reply Chris Snow suggested a change. But I'm not  
>>>>>>>>> sure it's enough for doing the same thing as a zoom out
>>>>>>>>> Maybe we could ask Ryan Foster if it's possble to shrink the  
>>>>>>>>> size (of everything ) else we may vote for the "return of  
>>>>>>>>> Flat Grey" as default
>>>>>>>>> theme.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> What do you people think ?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Jacques
>>>>>>>>> PS : Hans I saw you opened a subtask for the field size  
>>>>>>>>> issue, thanks!
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> From: "Hans Bakker" <mailinglist@antwebsystems.com <mailto:mailinglist@antwebsystems.com 
>>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>>>> Sure the Business theme looks good but.....
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The general problem is that the characters, fields and  
>>>>>>>>>> actually
>>>>>>>>>> everything is far too big....If i specify a field to be 2  
>>>>>>>>>> characters, at
>>>>>>>>>> least 5 fit in....
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> So set the default to flat_gray in general properties is  
>>>>>>>>>> perhaps better.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>>>> Hans
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 2009-10-12 at 16:19 +0200, Jacques Le Roux wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I'd like to know what the community thinks about Bizness  
>>>>>>>>>>> Time as default theme.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Do you use it?
>>>>>>>>>>> Do you change for another theme ?
>>>>>>>>>>> Which one fo you prefer?
>>>>>>>>>>> Did you find bugs in one of the theme but not another?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Jacques
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>>>>>> Antwebsystems.com <http://Antwebsystems.com>: Quality OFBiz  
>>>>>>>>>> services for competitive rates
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>
>>

Re: Default theme ?

Posted by Jacques Le Roux <ja...@les7arts.com>.

Ruth,

To make it clear, Ryan did no work on the eCommerce side.
The 3 products by line, etc. are not his work (I'm not quite sure but I think it's Bruno's)
Ryan worked on the ERP side, on the site and on the wiki (design consistencey).
he initial design has been done by Erik Schuessler from Brainfood. Then Ryan (and HWM team at large) did the implementation.
No such effort has ever been made for the eCommerce. I already explained why, at least why I think it like that...

Jacques

From: "Ruth Hoffman" <rh...@aesolves.com>
> Hi Ryan:
> 
> Not that I need to get in the last word...
> 
> I like your tag lines! Your design points are valid and, for what it is 
> worth, are now new data points for my consideration going forward.
> 
> I'm all about innovation. My original point was not that innovation, 
> progress or change for that matter isn't good. My original point - which 
> got lost in the noise - was that building something and then deploying 
> that "something"  without thorough testing is not good. In fact, the 
> consequences of doing that in this very competitive market, could be 
> disastrous. First impressions whether we like it or not, are lasting. 
> And when seemingly simple things don't work as one would expect - for 
> example on the ecommerce web store OOTB - that is not good.
> 
> Anyhow, I think we beat this to death. Thanks for the discussion.
> 
> Best Regards,
> Ruth
> 
> Ryan Foster wrote:
>> Inline...
>>
>> Ryan Foster
>> HotWax Media
>> 801.671.0769
>> ryan.foster@hotwaxmedia.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Oct 14, 2009, at 3:12 PM, Ruth Hoffman wrote:
>>
>>> Hello Ryan:
>>> Thanks so much for taking the time to inform the list. I personally 
>>> think that front-end website design and implementation is far more 
>>> difficult to master then is commonly acknowledged. I applaud your 
>>> efforts. At no time was I trying to disparage or dismiss any of the 
>>> OFBiz work that you or your colleagues have contributed.
>>
>> No offense taken.  Like I said, I was just trying to offer some 
>> additional insight into the discussion.
>>
>>>
>>> Please see my other comments inline:
>>>
>>> Ryan Foster wrote:
>>>> Since my colleagues and I were largely responsible for the initial 
>>>> design of BizznessTime, which borrows very heavily from Brainfood's 
>>>> public facing site design (thanks guys!), I feel a certain amount of 
>>>> obligation to defend my position.  Let me first start off by saying 
>>>> thank you all very much for this discussion on user interface in 
>>>> general and for the feedback on the BizznessTime theme.  I sometimes 
>>>> feel like a lone wolf in a sea of developers immensely more talented 
>>>> than me when it comes to back-end programming, so I think a small 
>>>> amount of front-end discussion is refreshing.  I take a huge amount 
>>>> of pride in my work, and I welcome any and all feedback, positive or 
>>>> negative, that will allow me to enhance the user experience
>>> IMO, the "theme" concept is an excellent addition to OFBiz.
>>>> Secondly, many of the key elements of the design were clearly and 
>>>> carefully thought out, and are based on the work, research, and 
>>>> testing of respected organizations and individuals in user 
>>>> experience and interaction design:
>>>>
>>> Obviously the design was clearly and carefully thought out. That was 
>>> never in question. Again, I applaud your efforts. Thank you.
>>>> In regards to the school of thought that all of the important 
>>>> content should be "above the fold" and that users shouldn't be 
>>>> required, do not like to scroll, will not scroll, etc; there has 
>>>> been extensive research that tends to suggest that this school of 
>>>> thought is outdated.  Jacob Nielsen discussed this back in 1997(!).  
>>>> See the following links for support:
>>> Thanks for the references. I have not seen any of these specifically, 
>>> although I have seen other statistical reports that are all over the 
>>> map as far as analyzing results. Just an FYI:  All of the content 
>>> writers and site designers that I work with insist that best practice 
>>> is to have the most compelling information above the fold. These 
>>> people are in the trenches day-in and day-out and are not selling a 
>>> service.  Just another data point.
>>
>> Yes, important information should near the top of the page, I am not 
>> disputing this.  What I am saying is "There is no fold", and there 
>> hasn't been one for quite some time.  This term was ported from 
>> newspaper print design in an attempt to explain a new medium and 
>> technology in terms that were familiar to designers entering this new 
>> media arena.  But the internet is not new anymore, and between Rich 
>> Media enabled mobile phones, integrated/on demand television, kiosk 
>> displays, laptops, and 42-inch cinema screen monitors, it is simply 
>> not relevant to modern web design and development anymore.  Honestly, 
>> between online websites, news portals, cross-channel aggregation, 
>> bloggers, and RSS feeds, I am not sure that newspapers even use the 
>> term "above the fold" anymore!  :)
>>
>> FYI: Last time I checked, content writing and web design were service 
>> based businesses.  I am also currently closing out a 15 hour day of 
>> designing/building websites and writing content for my clients, so I 
>> think that qualifies me as being in the trenches.
>>
>>>> http://www.useit.com/alertbox/9712a.html
>>>> http://blog.clicktale.com/2006/12/23/unfolding-the-fold/
>>>> http://blog.clicktale.com/2007/10/05/clicktale-scrolling-research-report-v20-part-1-visibility-and-scroll-reach/ 
>>>>
>>>> http://blog.clicktale.com/2007/12/04/clicktale-scrolling-research-report-v20-part-2-visitor-attention-and-web-page-exposure/ 
>>>>
>>>> http://www.uie.com/brainsparks/2006/08/02/utilizing-the-cut-off-look-to-encourage-users-to-scroll/ 
>>>>
>>>> http://www.boxesandarrows.com/view/blasting-the-myth-of
>>>>
>>>> Next, as far as the applications drop down menu, this concept is 
>>>> again based on modern web trends and current research.  Companies 
>>>> such as Target, Walmart, Microsoft, OfficeMax, OfficeDepot, EMC, 
>>>> MTV, Ruby on Rails, etc. use so called "Mega Dropdowns" in their 
>>>> sites and applications.  Our friends in the community over at 
>>>> Alexander Interactive have been cited numerous times for the 
>>>> navigation they developed for ActionEnvelope.  I agree that showing 
>>>> the menu on hover rather than on click would be an enhancement, but 
>>>> I also don't think that having to click is a bad thing either.  
>>>> Again, see the following resources:
>>>>
>>> It remains to be seen just how successful the "Mega Dropdowns" are. 
>>> Just because Target, Microsoft and Walmart use them, doesn't mean 
>>> they work in terms of site usability. That is not to say that some 
>>> menu dropdowns are not useful. I use them often.
>>>
>>> I would argue that a better example of a site to emulate is that of a 
>>> company that does all of its business on the Web - like Amazon. Yes, 
>>> they use dropdowns, but they are clearly marked as being dropdowns 
>>> and not obscured by other site elements.
>>
>> I wouldn't so easily discount the millions of dollars that these sites 
>> generate just because they have a brick-and-mortar presence.  But that 
>> is not really the point.  You will never make any progress if you just 
>> copy someone else's model.
>>
>> "Don't emulate - innovate. Then test."
>>
>> Oooh, that sounds kind of catchy. Is it too early to copyright that? ;)
>>
>> Actually a more appropriate A/B phrase would be:
>>
>> "Emulate. Innovate. Test."
>>
>> There we go, that sounds more like a tagline...
>>
>>>
>>>> http://www.uipattern.com/mega-drop-downs/
>>>> http://www.useit.com/alertbox/mega-dropdown-menus.html
>>>> http://www.sitepoint.com/blogs/2009/03/30/mega-drop-down-menus/
>>>> http://37signals.com/svn/posts/1647-mega-drop-down-navigation-at-basecamp-and-rails-guides-site 
>>>>
>>>> http://guides.rubyonrails.org/
>>>>
>>>> Finally, as far as the statement "lets not forget who our audience 
>>>> is", I am acutely aware of who are audience is.  We have developed 
>>>> several client branded themes based on the BizznessTime theme, and 
>>>> have received very positive feedback.  When our clients are happy, I 
>>>> am happy.  You are right that fancier isn't always better, there is 
>>>> research suggesting that doesn't matter.  It may not be better, but 
>>>> people think that it is:
>>>>
>>> You have taken the out-of-the-box themes and branded them. You were 
>>> able to do that because you know how to modify and change themes. A 
>>> new user (one who downloads a nightly build) will not know how to do 
>>> this. That is my target audience.
>>
>> I think that is where our disconnect is.  That might be your target 
>> audience, but that is generally not mine, my colleague's, or my 
>> employer's target audience.  The decision maker in an enterprise is 
>> usually not the person who downloads a nightly build. My focus and 
>> intent is to design an application that a CEO, CTO, Operations 
>> Manager, etc. can look at and feel confident that his/her 10, 100, 
>> 1000, etc. employees will be able to comfortably and effectively use 
>> it, and that it will power a site that his/her (hopefully) millions of 
>> customers will use and return to consistently.  They are the ones that 
>> will ultimately drive the support and distribution of OFBiz.
>>
>>>> http://www.alistapart.com/articles/indefenseofeyecandy
>>> Big fan of alistapart.com. Can't go wrong following that lead.
>>>> http://www.consumerwebwatch.org/news/report3_credibilityresearch/stanfordPTL.pdf 
>>>>
>>>> http://ist.psu.edu/faculty_pages/jjansen/academic/pres/chi2007/jansen_branding_of_search_engines.pdf 
>>>>
>>>> http://sigchi.org/chi97/proceedings/paper/nt.htm
>>>> http://www.experiencedynamics.com/sites/default/files/spillers-emotiondesign-proceedings.pdf 
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I do agree with many points that have been made so far, and again, I 
>>>> appreciate the feedback.  The font-size is a little too big. The 
>>>> padding in and around the inputs and submit buttons can be dialed 
>>>> back a bit.  I am working on a patch right now that incorporates 
>>>> this feedback, as well as additional feedback and discoveries from 
>>>> the themes we have built based on the original BizznessTime theme.
>>> I will continue to give feedback as long as you listen.
>>> And again, thanks for your efforts.
>>> Ruth
>>
>> Keep it coming Ruth.  I appreciate you taking the time.
>>
>>>> I apologize for the very long-winded email, but I just wanted to 
>>>> give the community some insight into my thought process and design 
>>>> methodologies.  I hope this helps the discussion.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>>
>>>> Ryan Foster
>>>> HotWax Media
>>>> 801.671.0769
>>>> ryan.foster@hotwaxmedia.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Oct 13, 2009, at 8:09 AM, Ruth Hoffman wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi Tim:
>>>>> I fully understand your point of view and the constraints we all 
>>>>> labor under. Whether the old theme sucks or not is not in question 
>>>>> here.
>>>>>
>>>>> First question I have for you is what "guidelines" are you 
>>>>> referring to?
>>>>>
>>>>> Secondly, why should a new user have to change a theme in order to 
>>>>> use OFBiz applications. If, as you say its easy to change a theme, 
>>>>> then it should be incumbent on the knowledgeable experienced OFBiz 
>>>>> user to change themes and not the new user. New users have enough 
>>>>> on their plate just learning how the applications work.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thirdly, please don't throw around "its easy" to do something 
>>>>> without siting references. You insult my intelligence and every 
>>>>> other reader on this list by implying that anything concerning 
>>>>> recent releases of OFBiz is "easy".
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>> Ruth
>>>>>
>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------
>>>>> Ruth Hoffman, Author, Mentor & OFBiz Enthusiast
>>>>> Ruth.Hoffman@myofbiz.com
>>>>> Looking for more OFBiz info, please visit my website: 
>>>>> http://www.myofbiz.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Tim Ruppert wrote:
>>>>>> We are all working within the constraints of _not_ redesigning the 
>>>>>> entire set of backend applications - which is really what needs to 
>>>>>> be done. The old theme sucks visually - has no spice, doesn't fit 
>>>>>> today's look and feel guidelines AT ALL, looks really old - so I'd 
>>>>>> say from someone who does this day in and day out - you're WAY off 
>>>>>> when it comes to the way that people react to it (be clear, this 
>>>>>> does not talk to using it on a day to day basis).  We've been very 
>>>>>> successful in building themes off of Bizzness Time - please are 
>>>>>> reacting in a really positive way.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There is nothing other than a visual change on the BizznessTime 
>>>>>> theme.  There are no other extra widgets or the like.  it's just a 
>>>>>> reorganization of the data that's there to help give it a 
>>>>>> facelift.  I'm not talking to users - I'm talking to you and 
>>>>>> everyone else who has issues with it.  Fix it ... or go back to 
>>>>>> the old theme in your own setup - don't doom the rest of us to 
>>>>>> have to go apply first impressions with that really lame setup.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As for the documentation - I'm not sure - checkout Confluence - we 
>>>>>> just dug in and tried to bring the backend apps out of the early 
>>>>>> 2000s instead of letting it sit stagnant.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>> Ruppert
>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>> Tim Ruppert
>>>>>> HotWax Media
>>>>>> http://www.hotwaxmedia.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>> o:801.649.6594
>>>>>> f:801.649.6595
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Oct 13, 2009, at 7:10 AM, Ruth Hoffman wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hello Tim:
>>>>>>> If this a tool for convincing people to use OFBiz, then IMO, we 
>>>>>>> are way off the mark. The backend applications where the 
>>>>>>> BiznessTime theme has been applied are designed for end-users who 
>>>>>>> may not and probably do not have any experience with HTML or CSS. 
>>>>>>> Lets not forget who our audience is here.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If the foundation, as you say is so solid (and I have not doubt 
>>>>>>> that it is), then reverting back to a simpler yet more accessible 
>>>>>>> theme should be the way to go.  Fancier is not always better.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On another note, could you point me to the end-user documentation 
>>>>>>> covering  creating new themes. I'd be happy to try this out and 
>>>>>>> post my findings.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>> Ruth
>>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>> Ruth Hoffman, Author, Mentor & OFBiz Enthusiast
>>>>>>> Ruth.Hoffman@myofbiz.com
>>>>>>> Looking for more OFBiz info, please visit my website: 
>>>>>>> http://www.myofbiz.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Tim Ruppert wrote:
>>>>>>>> We exclusively use the BizznessTime theme with clients because 
>>>>>>>> it's WAY easier to change, skin and adapt to everyone's liking / 
>>>>>>>> look and feel.  I think it would be a huge mistake to roll it 
>>>>>>>> back to the Flat Grey as we have not had any of the same 
>>>>>>>> problems once everyone gets over the initial shock of seeing 
>>>>>>>> something different.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If the community wants to roll it back - then go for it - but it 
>>>>>>>> isn't wise.  FIX the problems that you don't like in the 
>>>>>>>> BizznessTime theme, or create one of your own - it's easy to do 
>>>>>>>> - this is a much more solid foundation to build on then the old 
>>>>>>>> (and looking really old) theme that's been in there since the 
>>>>>>>> beginning.  Have any of you tried to edit the CSS to make any 
>>>>>>>> changes that might not make it so "large"?  It should be pretty 
>>>>>>>> easy with this setup.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Anyways, think on it and do what you will do, but remember this 
>>>>>>>> is still a tool for convincing people to use OFBiz.  I'd leave 
>>>>>>>> this in place and change it to the ugly, ugly in your own 
>>>>>>>> installations before I wanted to go back to Flay Grey as a sales 
>>>>>>>> tool ....
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>> Ruppert
>>>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>>>> Tim Ruppert
>>>>>>>> HotWax Media
>>>>>>>> http://www.hotwaxmedia.com
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> o:801.649.6594
>>>>>>>> f:801.649.6595
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Oct 13, 2009, at 3:40 AM, Jacques Le Roux wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Hi Hans,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> So far,
>>>>>>>>> * it seems that most people find things too large and prefer to 
>>>>>>>>> zoom out.
>>>>>>>>> * it seems also that not much specific bugs were reported, and 
>>>>>>>>> those reported should be easily fixed (not quite sure though...)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I repeat myself about where to report about this subject : 
>>>>>>>>> create a subtask at 
>>>>>>>>> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/OFBIZ-2398
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> In his 1st reply Chris Snow suggested a change. But I'm not 
>>>>>>>>> sure it's enough for doing the same thing as a zoom out
>>>>>>>>> Maybe we could ask Ryan Foster if it's possble to shrink the 
>>>>>>>>> size (of everything ) else we may vote for the "return of Flat 
>>>>>>>>> Grey" as default
>>>>>>>>> theme.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> What do you people think ?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Jacques
>>>>>>>>> PS : Hans I saw you opened a subtask for the field size issue, 
>>>>>>>>> thanks!
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> From: "Hans Bakker" <mailinglist@antwebsystems.com 
>>>>>>>>> <ma...@antwebsystems.com>>
>>>>>>>>>> Sure the Business theme looks good but.....
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The general problem is that the characters, fields and actually
>>>>>>>>>> everything is far too big....If i specify a field to be 2 
>>>>>>>>>> characters, at
>>>>>>>>>> least 5 fit in....
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> So set the default to flat_gray in general properties is 
>>>>>>>>>> perhaps better.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>>>> Hans
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 2009-10-12 at 16:19 +0200, Jacques Le Roux wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I'd like to know what the community thinks about Bizness Time 
>>>>>>>>>>> as default theme.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Do you use it?
>>>>>>>>>>> Do you change for another theme ?
>>>>>>>>>>> Which one fo you prefer?
>>>>>>>>>>> Did you find bugs in one of the theme but not another?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Jacques
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>>>>>> Antwebsystems.com <http://Antwebsystems.com>: Quality OFBiz 
>>>>>>>>>> services for competitive rates
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>
>>
>

Re: Default theme ?

Posted by Ruth Hoffman <rh...@aesolves.com>.

Hi Ryan:

Not that I need to get in the last word...

I like your tag lines! Your design points are valid and, for what it is 
worth, are now new data points for my consideration going forward.

I'm all about innovation. My original point was not that innovation, 
progress or change for that matter isn't good. My original point - which 
got lost in the noise - was that building something and then deploying 
that "something"  without thorough testing is not good. In fact, the 
consequences of doing that in this very competitive market, could be 
disastrous. First impressions whether we like it or not, are lasting. 
And when seemingly simple things don't work as one would expect - for 
example on the ecommerce web store OOTB - that is not good.

Anyhow, I think we beat this to death. Thanks for the discussion.

Best Regards,
Ruth

Ryan Foster wrote:
> Inline...
>
> Ryan Foster
> HotWax Media
> 801.671.0769
> ryan.foster@hotwaxmedia.com
>
>
>
>
> On Oct 14, 2009, at 3:12 PM, Ruth Hoffman wrote:
>
>> Hello Ryan:
>> Thanks so much for taking the time to inform the list. I personally 
>> think that front-end website design and implementation is far more 
>> difficult to master then is commonly acknowledged. I applaud your 
>> efforts. At no time was I trying to disparage or dismiss any of the 
>> OFBiz work that you or your colleagues have contributed.
>
> No offense taken.  Like I said, I was just trying to offer some 
> additional insight into the discussion.
>
>>
>> Please see my other comments inline:
>>
>> Ryan Foster wrote:
>>> Since my colleagues and I were largely responsible for the initial 
>>> design of BizznessTime, which borrows very heavily from Brainfood's 
>>> public facing site design (thanks guys!), I feel a certain amount of 
>>> obligation to defend my position.  Let me first start off by saying 
>>> thank you all very much for this discussion on user interface in 
>>> general and for the feedback on the BizznessTime theme.  I sometimes 
>>> feel like a lone wolf in a sea of developers immensely more talented 
>>> than me when it comes to back-end programming, so I think a small 
>>> amount of front-end discussion is refreshing.  I take a huge amount 
>>> of pride in my work, and I welcome any and all feedback, positive or 
>>> negative, that will allow me to enhance the user experience
>> IMO, the "theme" concept is an excellent addition to OFBiz.
>>> Secondly, many of the key elements of the design were clearly and 
>>> carefully thought out, and are based on the work, research, and 
>>> testing of respected organizations and individuals in user 
>>> experience and interaction design:
>>>
>> Obviously the design was clearly and carefully thought out. That was 
>> never in question. Again, I applaud your efforts. Thank you.
>>> In regards to the school of thought that all of the important 
>>> content should be "above the fold" and that users shouldn't be 
>>> required, do not like to scroll, will not scroll, etc; there has 
>>> been extensive research that tends to suggest that this school of 
>>> thought is outdated.  Jacob Nielsen discussed this back in 1997(!).  
>>> See the following links for support:
>> Thanks for the references. I have not seen any of these specifically, 
>> although I have seen other statistical reports that are all over the 
>> map as far as analyzing results. Just an FYI:  All of the content 
>> writers and site designers that I work with insist that best practice 
>> is to have the most compelling information above the fold. These 
>> people are in the trenches day-in and day-out and are not selling a 
>> service.  Just another data point.
>
> Yes, important information should near the top of the page, I am not 
> disputing this.  What I am saying is "There is no fold", and there 
> hasn't been one for quite some time.  This term was ported from 
> newspaper print design in an attempt to explain a new medium and 
> technology in terms that were familiar to designers entering this new 
> media arena.  But the internet is not new anymore, and between Rich 
> Media enabled mobile phones, integrated/on demand television, kiosk 
> displays, laptops, and 42-inch cinema screen monitors, it is simply 
> not relevant to modern web design and development anymore.  Honestly, 
> between online websites, news portals, cross-channel aggregation, 
> bloggers, and RSS feeds, I am not sure that newspapers even use the 
> term "above the fold" anymore!  :)
>
> FYI: Last time I checked, content writing and web design were service 
> based businesses.  I am also currently closing out a 15 hour day of 
> designing/building websites and writing content for my clients, so I 
> think that qualifies me as being in the trenches.
>
>>> http://www.useit.com/alertbox/9712a.html
>>> http://blog.clicktale.com/2006/12/23/unfolding-the-fold/
>>> http://blog.clicktale.com/2007/10/05/clicktale-scrolling-research-report-v20-part-1-visibility-and-scroll-reach/ 
>>>
>>> http://blog.clicktale.com/2007/12/04/clicktale-scrolling-research-report-v20-part-2-visitor-attention-and-web-page-exposure/ 
>>>
>>> http://www.uie.com/brainsparks/2006/08/02/utilizing-the-cut-off-look-to-encourage-users-to-scroll/ 
>>>
>>> http://www.boxesandarrows.com/view/blasting-the-myth-of
>>>
>>> Next, as far as the applications drop down menu, this concept is 
>>> again based on modern web trends and current research.  Companies 
>>> such as Target, Walmart, Microsoft, OfficeMax, OfficeDepot, EMC, 
>>> MTV, Ruby on Rails, etc. use so called "Mega Dropdowns" in their 
>>> sites and applications.  Our friends in the community over at 
>>> Alexander Interactive have been cited numerous times for the 
>>> navigation they developed for ActionEnvelope.  I agree that showing 
>>> the menu on hover rather than on click would be an enhancement, but 
>>> I also don't think that having to click is a bad thing either.  
>>> Again, see the following resources:
>>>
>> It remains to be seen just how successful the "Mega Dropdowns" are. 
>> Just because Target, Microsoft and Walmart use them, doesn't mean 
>> they work in terms of site usability. That is not to say that some 
>> menu dropdowns are not useful. I use them often.
>>
>> I would argue that a better example of a site to emulate is that of a 
>> company that does all of its business on the Web - like Amazon. Yes, 
>> they use dropdowns, but they are clearly marked as being dropdowns 
>> and not obscured by other site elements.
>
> I wouldn't so easily discount the millions of dollars that these sites 
> generate just because they have a brick-and-mortar presence.  But that 
> is not really the point.  You will never make any progress if you just 
> copy someone else's model.
>
> "Don't emulate - innovate. Then test."
>
> Oooh, that sounds kind of catchy. Is it too early to copyright that? ;)
>
> Actually a more appropriate A/B phrase would be:
>
> "Emulate. Innovate. Test."
>
> There we go, that sounds more like a tagline...
>
>>
>>> http://www.uipattern.com/mega-drop-downs/
>>> http://www.useit.com/alertbox/mega-dropdown-menus.html
>>> http://www.sitepoint.com/blogs/2009/03/30/mega-drop-down-menus/
>>> http://37signals.com/svn/posts/1647-mega-drop-down-navigation-at-basecamp-and-rails-guides-site 
>>>
>>> http://guides.rubyonrails.org/
>>>
>>> Finally, as far as the statement "lets not forget who our audience 
>>> is", I am acutely aware of who are audience is.  We have developed 
>>> several client branded themes based on the BizznessTime theme, and 
>>> have received very positive feedback.  When our clients are happy, I 
>>> am happy.  You are right that fancier isn't always better, there is 
>>> research suggesting that doesn't matter.  It may not be better, but 
>>> people think that it is:
>>>
>> You have taken the out-of-the-box themes and branded them. You were 
>> able to do that because you know how to modify and change themes. A 
>> new user (one who downloads a nightly build) will not know how to do 
>> this. That is my target audience.
>
> I think that is where our disconnect is.  That might be your target 
> audience, but that is generally not mine, my colleague's, or my 
> employer's target audience.  The decision maker in an enterprise is 
> usually not the person who downloads a nightly build. My focus and 
> intent is to design an application that a CEO, CTO, Operations 
> Manager, etc. can look at and feel confident that his/her 10, 100, 
> 1000, etc. employees will be able to comfortably and effectively use 
> it, and that it will power a site that his/her (hopefully) millions of 
> customers will use and return to consistently.  They are the ones that 
> will ultimately drive the support and distribution of OFBiz.
>
>>> http://www.alistapart.com/articles/indefenseofeyecandy
>> Big fan of alistapart.com. Can't go wrong following that lead.
>>> http://www.consumerwebwatch.org/news/report3_credibilityresearch/stanfordPTL.pdf 
>>>
>>> http://ist.psu.edu/faculty_pages/jjansen/academic/pres/chi2007/jansen_branding_of_search_engines.pdf 
>>>
>>> http://sigchi.org/chi97/proceedings/paper/nt.htm
>>> http://www.experiencedynamics.com/sites/default/files/spillers-emotiondesign-proceedings.pdf 
>>>
>>>
>>> I do agree with many points that have been made so far, and again, I 
>>> appreciate the feedback.  The font-size is a little too big. The 
>>> padding in and around the inputs and submit buttons can be dialed 
>>> back a bit.  I am working on a patch right now that incorporates 
>>> this feedback, as well as additional feedback and discoveries from 
>>> the themes we have built based on the original BizznessTime theme.
>> I will continue to give feedback as long as you listen.
>> And again, thanks for your efforts.
>> Ruth
>
> Keep it coming Ruth.  I appreciate you taking the time.
>
>>> I apologize for the very long-winded email, but I just wanted to 
>>> give the community some insight into my thought process and design 
>>> methodologies.  I hope this helps the discussion.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> Ryan Foster
>>> HotWax Media
>>> 801.671.0769
>>> ryan.foster@hotwaxmedia.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Oct 13, 2009, at 8:09 AM, Ruth Hoffman wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi Tim:
>>>> I fully understand your point of view and the constraints we all 
>>>> labor under. Whether the old theme sucks or not is not in question 
>>>> here.
>>>>
>>>> First question I have for you is what "guidelines" are you 
>>>> referring to?
>>>>
>>>> Secondly, why should a new user have to change a theme in order to 
>>>> use OFBiz applications. If, as you say its easy to change a theme, 
>>>> then it should be incumbent on the knowledgeable experienced OFBiz 
>>>> user to change themes and not the new user. New users have enough 
>>>> on their plate just learning how the applications work.
>>>>
>>>> Thirdly, please don't throw around "its easy" to do something 
>>>> without siting references. You insult my intelligence and every 
>>>> other reader on this list by implying that anything concerning 
>>>> recent releases of OFBiz is "easy".
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Ruth
>>>>
>>>> ----------------------------------------------------
>>>> Ruth Hoffman, Author, Mentor & OFBiz Enthusiast
>>>> Ruth.Hoffman@myofbiz.com
>>>> Looking for more OFBiz info, please visit my website: 
>>>> http://www.myofbiz.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Tim Ruppert wrote:
>>>>> We are all working within the constraints of _not_ redesigning the 
>>>>> entire set of backend applications - which is really what needs to 
>>>>> be done. The old theme sucks visually - has no spice, doesn't fit 
>>>>> today's look and feel guidelines AT ALL, looks really old - so I'd 
>>>>> say from someone who does this day in and day out - you're WAY off 
>>>>> when it comes to the way that people react to it (be clear, this 
>>>>> does not talk to using it on a day to day basis).  We've been very 
>>>>> successful in building themes off of Bizzness Time - please are 
>>>>> reacting in a really positive way.
>>>>>
>>>>> There is nothing other than a visual change on the BizznessTime 
>>>>> theme.  There are no other extra widgets or the like.  it's just a 
>>>>> reorganization of the data that's there to help give it a 
>>>>> facelift.  I'm not talking to users - I'm talking to you and 
>>>>> everyone else who has issues with it.  Fix it ... or go back to 
>>>>> the old theme in your own setup - don't doom the rest of us to 
>>>>> have to go apply first impressions with that really lame setup.
>>>>>
>>>>> As for the documentation - I'm not sure - checkout Confluence - we 
>>>>> just dug in and tried to bring the backend apps out of the early 
>>>>> 2000s instead of letting it sit stagnant.
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>> Ruppert
>>>>> -- 
>>>>> Tim Ruppert
>>>>> HotWax Media
>>>>> http://www.hotwaxmedia.com
>>>>>
>>>>> o:801.649.6594
>>>>> f:801.649.6595
>>>>>
>>>>> On Oct 13, 2009, at 7:10 AM, Ruth Hoffman wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hello Tim:
>>>>>> If this a tool for convincing people to use OFBiz, then IMO, we 
>>>>>> are way off the mark. The backend applications where the 
>>>>>> BiznessTime theme has been applied are designed for end-users who 
>>>>>> may not and probably do not have any experience with HTML or CSS. 
>>>>>> Lets not forget who our audience is here.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If the foundation, as you say is so solid (and I have not doubt 
>>>>>> that it is), then reverting back to a simpler yet more accessible 
>>>>>> theme should be the way to go.  Fancier is not always better.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On another note, could you point me to the end-user documentation 
>>>>>> covering  creating new themes. I'd be happy to try this out and 
>>>>>> post my findings.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>> Ruth
>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------
>>>>>> Ruth Hoffman, Author, Mentor & OFBiz Enthusiast
>>>>>> Ruth.Hoffman@myofbiz.com
>>>>>> Looking for more OFBiz info, please visit my website: 
>>>>>> http://www.myofbiz.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Tim Ruppert wrote:
>>>>>>> We exclusively use the BizznessTime theme with clients because 
>>>>>>> it's WAY easier to change, skin and adapt to everyone's liking / 
>>>>>>> look and feel.  I think it would be a huge mistake to roll it 
>>>>>>> back to the Flat Grey as we have not had any of the same 
>>>>>>> problems once everyone gets over the initial shock of seeing 
>>>>>>> something different.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If the community wants to roll it back - then go for it - but it 
>>>>>>> isn't wise.  FIX the problems that you don't like in the 
>>>>>>> BizznessTime theme, or create one of your own - it's easy to do 
>>>>>>> - this is a much more solid foundation to build on then the old 
>>>>>>> (and looking really old) theme that's been in there since the 
>>>>>>> beginning.  Have any of you tried to edit the CSS to make any 
>>>>>>> changes that might not make it so "large"?  It should be pretty 
>>>>>>> easy with this setup.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Anyways, think on it and do what you will do, but remember this 
>>>>>>> is still a tool for convincing people to use OFBiz.  I'd leave 
>>>>>>> this in place and change it to the ugly, ugly in your own 
>>>>>>> installations before I wanted to go back to Flay Grey as a sales 
>>>>>>> tool ....
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>> Ruppert
>>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>>> Tim Ruppert
>>>>>>> HotWax Media
>>>>>>> http://www.hotwaxmedia.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> o:801.649.6594
>>>>>>> f:801.649.6595
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Oct 13, 2009, at 3:40 AM, Jacques Le Roux wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hi Hans,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> So far,
>>>>>>>> * it seems that most people find things too large and prefer to 
>>>>>>>> zoom out.
>>>>>>>> * it seems also that not much specific bugs were reported, and 
>>>>>>>> those reported should be easily fixed (not quite sure though...)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I repeat myself about where to report about this subject : 
>>>>>>>> create a subtask at 
>>>>>>>> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/OFBIZ-2398
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In his 1st reply Chris Snow suggested a change. But I'm not 
>>>>>>>> sure it's enough for doing the same thing as a zoom out
>>>>>>>> Maybe we could ask Ryan Foster if it's possble to shrink the 
>>>>>>>> size (of everything ) else we may vote for the "return of Flat 
>>>>>>>> Grey" as default
>>>>>>>> theme.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> What do you people think ?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Jacques
>>>>>>>> PS : Hans I saw you opened a subtask for the field size issue, 
>>>>>>>> thanks!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> From: "Hans Bakker" <mailinglist@antwebsystems.com 
>>>>>>>> <ma...@antwebsystems.com>>
>>>>>>>>> Sure the Business theme looks good but.....
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The general problem is that the characters, fields and actually
>>>>>>>>> everything is far too big....If i specify a field to be 2 
>>>>>>>>> characters, at
>>>>>>>>> least 5 fit in....
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> So set the default to flat_gray in general properties is 
>>>>>>>>> perhaps better.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>>> Hans
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 2009-10-12 at 16:19 +0200, Jacques Le Roux wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I'd like to know what the community thinks about Bizness Time 
>>>>>>>>>> as default theme.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Do you use it?
>>>>>>>>>> Do you change for another theme ?
>>>>>>>>>> Which one fo you prefer?
>>>>>>>>>> Did you find bugs in one of the theme but not another?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Thanks
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Jacques
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>>>>> Antwebsystems.com <http://Antwebsystems.com>: Quality OFBiz 
>>>>>>>>> services for competitive rates
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>
>
>

Re: Default theme ?

Posted by Ryan Foster <ry...@hotwaxmedia.com>.

Inline...

Ryan Foster
HotWax Media
801.671.0769
ryan.foster@hotwaxmedia.com




On Oct 14, 2009, at 3:12 PM, Ruth Hoffman wrote:

> Hello Ryan:
> Thanks so much for taking the time to inform the list. I personally  
> think that front-end website design and implementation is far more  
> difficult to master then is commonly acknowledged. I applaud your  
> efforts. At no time was I trying to disparage or dismiss any of the  
> OFBiz work that you or your colleagues have contributed.

No offense taken.  Like I said, I was just trying to offer some  
additional insight into the discussion.

>
> Please see my other comments inline:
>
> Ryan Foster wrote:
>> Since my colleagues and I were largely responsible for the initial  
>> design of BizznessTime, which borrows very heavily from Brainfood's  
>> public facing site design (thanks guys!), I feel a certain amount  
>> of obligation to defend my position.  Let me first start off by  
>> saying thank you all very much for this discussion on user  
>> interface in general and for the feedback on the BizznessTime  
>> theme.  I sometimes feel like a lone wolf in a sea of developers  
>> immensely more talented than me when it comes to back-end  
>> programming, so I think a small amount of front-end discussion is  
>> refreshing.  I take a huge amount of pride in my work, and I  
>> welcome any and all feedback, positive or negative, that will allow  
>> me to enhance the user experience
> IMO, the "theme" concept is an excellent addition to OFBiz.
>> Secondly, many of the key elements of the design were clearly and  
>> carefully thought out, and are based on the work, research, and  
>> testing of respected organizations and individuals in user  
>> experience and interaction design:
>>
> Obviously the design was clearly and carefully thought out. That was  
> never in question. Again, I applaud your efforts. Thank you.
>> In regards to the school of thought that all of the important  
>> content should be "above the fold" and that users shouldn't be  
>> required, do not like to scroll, will not scroll, etc; there has  
>> been extensive research that tends to suggest that this school of  
>> thought is outdated.  Jacob Nielsen discussed this back in 1997 
>> (!).  See the following links for support:
> Thanks for the references. I have not seen any of these  
> specifically, although I have seen other statistical reports that  
> are all over the map as far as analyzing results. Just an FYI:  All  
> of the content writers and site designers that I work with insist  
> that best practice is to have the most compelling information above  
> the fold. These people are in the trenches day-in and day-out and  
> are not selling a service.  Just another data point.

Yes, important information should near the top of the page, I am not  
disputing this.  What I am saying is "There is no fold", and there  
hasn't been one for quite some time.  This term was ported from  
newspaper print design in an attempt to explain a new medium and  
technology in terms that were familiar to designers entering this new  
media arena.  But the internet is not new anymore, and between Rich  
Media enabled mobile phones, integrated/on demand television, kiosk  
displays, laptops, and 42-inch cinema screen monitors, it is simply  
not relevant to modern web design and development anymore.  Honestly,  
between online websites, news portals, cross-channel aggregation,  
bloggers, and RSS feeds, I am not sure that newspapers even use the  
term "above the fold" anymore!  :)

FYI: Last time I checked, content writing and web design were service  
based businesses.  I am also currently closing out a 15 hour day of  
designing/building websites and writing content for my clients, so I  
think that qualifies me as being in the trenches.

>> http://www.useit.com/alertbox/9712a.html
>> http://blog.clicktale.com/2006/12/23/unfolding-the-fold/
>> http://blog.clicktale.com/2007/10/05/clicktale-scrolling-research-report-v20-part-1-visibility-and-scroll-reach/
>> http://blog.clicktale.com/2007/12/04/clicktale-scrolling-research-report-v20-part-2-visitor-attention-and-web-page-exposure/
>> http://www.uie.com/brainsparks/2006/08/02/utilizing-the-cut-off-look-to-encourage-users-to-scroll/
>> http://www.boxesandarrows.com/view/blasting-the-myth-of
>>
>> Next, as far as the applications drop down menu, this concept is  
>> again based on modern web trends and current research.  Companies  
>> such as Target, Walmart, Microsoft, OfficeMax, OfficeDepot, EMC,  
>> MTV, Ruby on Rails, etc. use so called "Mega Dropdowns" in their  
>> sites and applications.  Our friends in the community over at  
>> Alexander Interactive have been cited numerous times for the  
>> navigation they developed for ActionEnvelope.  I agree that showing  
>> the menu on hover rather than on click would be an enhancement, but  
>> I also don't think that having to click is a bad thing either.   
>> Again, see the following resources:
>>
> It remains to be seen just how successful the "Mega Dropdowns" are.  
> Just because Target, Microsoft and Walmart use them, doesn't mean  
> they work in terms of site usability. That is not to say that some  
> menu dropdowns are not useful. I use them often.
>
> I would argue that a better example of a site to emulate is that of  
> a company that does all of its business on the Web - like Amazon.  
> Yes, they use dropdowns, but they are clearly marked as being  
> dropdowns and not obscured by other site elements.

I wouldn't so easily discount the millions of dollars that these sites  
generate just because they have a brick-and-mortar presence.  But that  
is not really the point.  You will never make any progress if you just  
copy someone else's model.

"Don't emulate - innovate. Then test."

Oooh, that sounds kind of catchy. Is it too early to copyright that? ;)

Actually a more appropriate A/B phrase would be:

"Emulate. Innovate. Test."

There we go, that sounds more like a tagline...

>
>> http://www.uipattern.com/mega-drop-downs/
>> http://www.useit.com/alertbox/mega-dropdown-menus.html
>> http://www.sitepoint.com/blogs/2009/03/30/mega-drop-down-menus/
>> http://37signals.com/svn/posts/1647-mega-drop-down-navigation-at-basecamp-and-rails-guides-site
>> http://guides.rubyonrails.org/
>>
>> Finally, as far as the statement "lets not forget who our audience  
>> is", I am acutely aware of who are audience is.  We have developed  
>> several client branded themes based on the BizznessTime theme, and  
>> have received very positive feedback.  When our clients are happy,  
>> I am happy.  You are right that fancier isn't always better, there  
>> is research suggesting that doesn't matter.  It may not be better,  
>> but people think that it is:
>>
> You have taken the out-of-the-box themes and branded them. You were  
> able to do that because you know how to modify and change themes. A  
> new user (one who downloads a nightly build) will not know how to do  
> this. That is my target audience.

I think that is where our disconnect is.  That might be your target  
audience, but that is generally not mine, my colleague's, or my  
employer's target audience.  The decision maker in an enterprise is  
usually not the person who downloads a nightly build. My focus and  
intent is to design an application that a CEO, CTO, Operations  
Manager, etc. can look at and feel confident that his/her 10, 100,  
1000, etc. employees will be able to comfortably and effectively use  
it, and that it will power a site that his/her (hopefully) millions of  
customers will use and return to consistently.  They are the ones that  
will ultimately drive the support and distribution of OFBiz.

>> http://www.alistapart.com/articles/indefenseofeyecandy
> Big fan of alistapart.com. Can't go wrong following that lead.
>> http://www.consumerwebwatch.org/news/report3_credibilityresearch/stanfordPTL.pdf
>> http://ist.psu.edu/faculty_pages/jjansen/academic/pres/chi2007/jansen_branding_of_search_engines.pdf
>> http://sigchi.org/chi97/proceedings/paper/nt.htm
>> http://www.experiencedynamics.com/sites/default/files/spillers-emotiondesign-proceedings.pdf
>>
>> I do agree with many points that have been made so far, and again,  
>> I appreciate the feedback.  The font-size is a little too big. The  
>> padding in and around the inputs and submit buttons can be dialed  
>> back a bit.  I am working on a patch right now that incorporates  
>> this feedback, as well as additional feedback and discoveries from  
>> the themes we have built based on the original BizznessTime theme.
> I will continue to give feedback as long as you listen.
> And again, thanks for your efforts.
> Ruth

Keep it coming Ruth.  I appreciate you taking the time.

>> I apologize for the very long-winded email, but I just wanted to  
>> give the community some insight into my thought process and design  
>> methodologies.  I hope this helps the discussion.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Ryan Foster
>> HotWax Media
>> 801.671.0769
>> ryan.foster@hotwaxmedia.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Oct 13, 2009, at 8:09 AM, Ruth Hoffman wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Tim:
>>> I fully understand your point of view and the constraints we all  
>>> labor under. Whether the old theme sucks or not is not in question  
>>> here.
>>>
>>> First question I have for you is what "guidelines" are you  
>>> referring to?
>>>
>>> Secondly, why should a new user have to change a theme in order to  
>>> use OFBiz applications. If, as you say its easy to change a theme,  
>>> then it should be incumbent on the knowledgeable experienced OFBiz  
>>> user to change themes and not the new user. New users have enough  
>>> on their plate just learning how the applications work.
>>>
>>> Thirdly, please don't throw around "its easy" to do something  
>>> without siting references. You insult my intelligence and every  
>>> other reader on this list by implying that anything concerning  
>>> recent releases of OFBiz is "easy".
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Ruth
>>>
>>> ----------------------------------------------------
>>> Ruth Hoffman, Author, Mentor & OFBiz Enthusiast
>>> Ruth.Hoffman@myofbiz.com
>>> Looking for more OFBiz info, please visit my website: http://www.myofbiz.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Tim Ruppert wrote:
>>>> We are all working within the constraints of _not_ redesigning  
>>>> the entire set of backend applications - which is really what  
>>>> needs to be done. The old theme sucks visually - has no spice,  
>>>> doesn't fit today's look and feel guidelines AT ALL, looks really  
>>>> old - so I'd say from someone who does this day in and day out -  
>>>> you're WAY off when it comes to the way that people react to it  
>>>> (be clear, this does not talk to using it on a day to day  
>>>> basis).  We've been very successful in building themes off of  
>>>> Bizzness Time - please are reacting in a really positive way.
>>>>
>>>> There is nothing other than a visual change on the BizznessTime  
>>>> theme.  There are no other extra widgets or the like.  it's just  
>>>> a reorganization of the data that's there to help give it a  
>>>> facelift.  I'm not talking to users - I'm talking to you and  
>>>> everyone else who has issues with it.  Fix it ... or go back to  
>>>> the old theme in your own setup - don't doom the rest of us to  
>>>> have to go apply first impressions with that really lame setup.
>>>>
>>>> As for the documentation - I'm not sure - checkout Confluence -  
>>>> we just dug in and tried to bring the backend apps out of the  
>>>> early 2000s instead of letting it sit stagnant.
>>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> Ruppert
>>>> -- 
>>>> Tim Ruppert
>>>> HotWax Media
>>>> http://www.hotwaxmedia.com
>>>>
>>>> o:801.649.6594
>>>> f:801.649.6595
>>>>
>>>> On Oct 13, 2009, at 7:10 AM, Ruth Hoffman wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hello Tim:
>>>>> If this a tool for convincing people to use OFBiz, then IMO, we  
>>>>> are way off the mark. The backend applications where the  
>>>>> BiznessTime theme has been applied are designed for end-users  
>>>>> who may not and probably do not have any experience with HTML or  
>>>>> CSS. Lets not forget who our audience is here.
>>>>>
>>>>> If the foundation, as you say is so solid (and I have not doubt  
>>>>> that it is), then reverting back to a simpler yet more  
>>>>> accessible theme should be the way to go.  Fancier is not always  
>>>>> better.
>>>>>
>>>>> On another note, could you point me to the end-user  
>>>>> documentation covering  creating new themes. I'd be happy to try  
>>>>> this out and post my findings.
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>> Ruth
>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------
>>>>> Ruth Hoffman, Author, Mentor & OFBiz Enthusiast
>>>>> Ruth.Hoffman@myofbiz.com
>>>>> Looking for more OFBiz info, please visit my website: http://www.myofbiz.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Tim Ruppert wrote:
>>>>>> We exclusively use the BizznessTime theme with clients because  
>>>>>> it's WAY easier to change, skin and adapt to everyone's  
>>>>>> liking / look and feel.  I think it would be a huge mistake to  
>>>>>> roll it back to the Flat Grey as we have not had any of the  
>>>>>> same problems once everyone gets over the initial shock of  
>>>>>> seeing something different.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If the community wants to roll it back - then go for it - but  
>>>>>> it isn't wise.  FIX the problems that you don't like in the  
>>>>>> BizznessTime theme, or create one of your own - it's easy to do  
>>>>>> - this is a much more solid foundation to build on then the old  
>>>>>> (and looking really old) theme that's been in there since the  
>>>>>> beginning.  Have any of you tried to edit the CSS to make any  
>>>>>> changes that might not make it so "large"?  It should be pretty  
>>>>>> easy with this setup.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Anyways, think on it and do what you will do, but remember this  
>>>>>> is still a tool for convincing people to use OFBiz.  I'd leave  
>>>>>> this in place and change it to the ugly, ugly in your own  
>>>>>> installations before I wanted to go back to Flay Grey as a  
>>>>>> sales tool ....
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>> Ruppert
>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>> Tim Ruppert
>>>>>> HotWax Media
>>>>>> http://www.hotwaxmedia.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>> o:801.649.6594
>>>>>> f:801.649.6595
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Oct 13, 2009, at 3:40 AM, Jacques Le Roux wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi Hans,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So far,
>>>>>>> * it seems that most people find things too large and prefer  
>>>>>>> to zoom out.
>>>>>>> * it seems also that not much specific bugs were reported, and  
>>>>>>> those reported should be easily fixed (not quite sure though...)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I repeat myself about where to report about this subject :  
>>>>>>> create a subtask at https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/OFBIZ-2398
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In his 1st reply Chris Snow suggested a change. But I'm not  
>>>>>>> sure it's enough for doing the same thing as a zoom out
>>>>>>> Maybe we could ask Ryan Foster if it's possble to shrink the  
>>>>>>> size (of everything ) else we may vote for the "return of Flat  
>>>>>>> Grey" as default
>>>>>>> theme.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What do you people think ?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Jacques
>>>>>>> PS : Hans I saw you opened a subtask for the field size issue,  
>>>>>>> thanks!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> From: "Hans Bakker" <mailinglist@antwebsystems.com <mailto:mailinglist@antwebsystems.com 
>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>> Sure the Business theme looks good but.....
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The general problem is that the characters, fields and actually
>>>>>>>> everything is far too big....If i specify a field to be 2  
>>>>>>>> characters, at
>>>>>>>> least 5 fit in....
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> So set the default to flat_gray in general properties is  
>>>>>>>> perhaps better.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>> Hans
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Mon, 2009-10-12 at 16:19 +0200, Jacques Le Roux wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I'd like to know what the community thinks about Bizness  
>>>>>>>>> Time as default theme.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Do you use it?
>>>>>>>>> Do you change for another theme ?
>>>>>>>>> Which one fo you prefer?
>>>>>>>>> Did you find bugs in one of the theme but not another?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Thanks
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Jacques
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>>>> Antwebsystems.com <http://Antwebsystems.com>: Quality OFBiz  
>>>>>>>> services for competitive rates
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>
>>

Re: Default theme ?

Posted by Ruth Hoffman <rh...@aesolves.com>.

Hello Ryan:
Thanks so much for taking the time to inform the list. I personally 
think that front-end website design and implementation is far more 
difficult to master then is commonly acknowledged. I applaud your 
efforts. At no time was I trying to disparage or dismiss any of the 
OFBiz work that you or your colleagues have contributed.

Please see my other comments inline:

Ryan Foster wrote:
> Since my colleagues and I were largely responsible for the initial 
> design of BizznessTime, which borrows very heavily from Brainfood's 
> public facing site design (thanks guys!), I feel a certain amount of 
> obligation to defend my position.  Let me first start off by saying 
> thank you all very much for this discussion on user interface in 
> general and for the feedback on the BizznessTime theme.  I sometimes 
> feel like a lone wolf in a sea of developers immensely more talented 
> than me when it comes to back-end programming, so I think a small 
> amount of front-end discussion is refreshing.  I take a huge amount of 
> pride in my work, and I welcome any and all feedback, positive or 
> negative, that will allow me to enhance the user experience
IMO, the "theme" concept is an excellent addition to OFBiz.
> Secondly, many of the key elements of the design were clearly and 
> carefully thought out, and are based on the work, research, and 
> testing of respected organizations and individuals in user experience 
> and interaction design:
>
Obviously the design was clearly and carefully thought out. That was 
never in question. Again, I applaud your efforts. Thank you.
> In regards to the school of thought that all of the important content 
> should be "above the fold" and that users shouldn't be required, do 
> not like to scroll, will not scroll, etc; there has been extensive 
> research that tends to suggest that this school of thought is 
> outdated.  Jacob Nielsen discussed this back in 1997(!).  See the 
> following links for support: 
Thanks for the references. I have not seen any of these specifically, 
although I have seen other statistical reports that are all over the map 
as far as analyzing results. Just an FYI:  All of the content writers 
and site designers that I work with insist that best practice is to have 
the most compelling information above the fold. These people are in the 
trenches day-in and day-out and are not selling a service.  Just another 
data point.
> http://www.useit.com/alertbox/9712a.html
> http://blog.clicktale.com/2006/12/23/unfolding-the-fold/
> http://blog.clicktale.com/2007/10/05/clicktale-scrolling-research-report-v20-part-1-visibility-and-scroll-reach/ 
>
> http://blog.clicktale.com/2007/12/04/clicktale-scrolling-research-report-v20-part-2-visitor-attention-and-web-page-exposure/ 
>
> http://www.uie.com/brainsparks/2006/08/02/utilizing-the-cut-off-look-to-encourage-users-to-scroll/ 
>
> http://www.boxesandarrows.com/view/blasting-the-myth-of
>
> Next, as far as the applications drop down menu, this concept is again 
> based on modern web trends and current research.  Companies such as 
> Target, Walmart, Microsoft, OfficeMax, OfficeDepot, EMC, MTV, Ruby on 
> Rails, etc. use so called "Mega Dropdowns" in their sites and 
> applications.  Our friends in the community over at Alexander 
> Interactive have been cited numerous times for the navigation they 
> developed for ActionEnvelope.  I agree that showing the menu on hover 
> rather than on click would be an enhancement, but I also don't think 
> that having to click is a bad thing either.  Again, see the following 
> resources:
>
It remains to be seen just how successful the "Mega Dropdowns" are. Just 
because Target, Microsoft and Walmart use them, doesn't mean they work 
in terms of site usability. That is not to say that some menu dropdowns 
are not useful. I use them often.

I would argue that a better example of a site to emulate is that of a 
company that does all of its business on the Web - like Amazon. Yes, 
they use dropdowns, but they are clearly marked as being dropdowns and 
not obscured by other site elements.

> http://www.uipattern.com/mega-drop-downs/
> http://www.useit.com/alertbox/mega-dropdown-menus.html
> http://www.sitepoint.com/blogs/2009/03/30/mega-drop-down-menus/
> http://37signals.com/svn/posts/1647-mega-drop-down-navigation-at-basecamp-and-rails-guides-site 
>
> http://guides.rubyonrails.org/
>
> Finally, as far as the statement "lets not forget who our audience 
> is", I am acutely aware of who are audience is.  We have developed 
> several client branded themes based on the BizznessTime theme, and 
> have received very positive feedback.  When our clients are happy, I 
> am happy.  You are right that fancier isn't always better, there is 
> research suggesting that doesn't matter.  It may not be better, but 
> people think that it is:
>
You have taken the out-of-the-box themes and branded them. You were able 
to do that because you know how to modify and change themes. A new user 
(one who downloads a nightly build) will not know how to do this. That 
is my target audience.
> http://www.alistapart.com/articles/indefenseofeyecandy
Big fan of alistapart.com. Can't go wrong following that lead.
> http://www.consumerwebwatch.org/news/report3_credibilityresearch/stanfordPTL.pdf 
>
> http://ist.psu.edu/faculty_pages/jjansen/academic/pres/chi2007/jansen_branding_of_search_engines.pdf 
>
> http://sigchi.org/chi97/proceedings/paper/nt.htm
> http://www.experiencedynamics.com/sites/default/files/spillers-emotiondesign-proceedings.pdf 
>
>
> I do agree with many points that have been made so far, and again, I 
> appreciate the feedback.  The font-size is a little too big. The 
> padding in and around the inputs and submit buttons can be dialed back 
> a bit.  I am working on a patch right now that incorporates this 
> feedback, as well as additional feedback and discoveries from the 
> themes we have built based on the original BizznessTime theme. 
I will continue to give feedback as long as you listen.
And again, thanks for your efforts.
Ruth
> I apologize for the very long-winded email, but I just wanted to give 
> the community some insight into my thought process and design 
> methodologies.  I hope this helps the discussion.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Ryan Foster
> HotWax Media
> 801.671.0769
> ryan.foster@hotwaxmedia.com
>
>
>
>
> On Oct 13, 2009, at 8:09 AM, Ruth Hoffman wrote:
>
>> Hi Tim:
>> I fully understand your point of view and the constraints we all 
>> labor under. Whether the old theme sucks or not is not in question here.
>>
>> First question I have for you is what "guidelines" are you referring to?
>>
>> Secondly, why should a new user have to change a theme in order to 
>> use OFBiz applications. If, as you say its easy to change a theme, 
>> then it should be incumbent on the knowledgeable experienced OFBiz 
>> user to change themes and not the new user. New users have enough on 
>> their plate just learning how the applications work.
>>
>> Thirdly, please don't throw around "its easy" to do something without 
>> siting references. You insult my intelligence and every other reader 
>> on this list by implying that anything concerning recent releases of 
>> OFBiz is "easy".
>>
>> Regards,
>> Ruth
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------
>> Ruth Hoffman, Author, Mentor & OFBiz Enthusiast
>> Ruth.Hoffman@myofbiz.com
>> Looking for more OFBiz info, please visit my website: 
>> http://www.myofbiz.com
>>
>>
>>
>> Tim Ruppert wrote:
>>> We are all working within the constraints of _not_ redesigning the 
>>> entire set of backend applications - which is really what needs to 
>>> be done. The old theme sucks visually - has no spice, doesn't fit 
>>> today's look and feel guidelines AT ALL, looks really old - so I'd 
>>> say from someone who does this day in and day out - you're WAY off 
>>> when it comes to the way that people react to it (be clear, this 
>>> does not talk to using it on a day to day basis).  We've been very 
>>> successful in building themes off of Bizzness Time - please are 
>>> reacting in a really positive way.
>>>
>>> There is nothing other than a visual change on the BizznessTime 
>>> theme.  There are no other extra widgets or the like.  it's just a 
>>> reorganization of the data that's there to help give it a facelift.  
>>> I'm not talking to users - I'm talking to you and everyone else who 
>>> has issues with it.  Fix it ... or go back to the old theme in your 
>>> own setup - don't doom the rest of us to have to go apply first 
>>> impressions with that really lame setup.
>>>
>>> As for the documentation - I'm not sure - checkout Confluence - we 
>>> just dug in and tried to bring the backend apps out of the early 
>>> 2000s instead of letting it sit stagnant.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> Ruppert
>>> -- 
>>> Tim Ruppert
>>> HotWax Media
>>> http://www.hotwaxmedia.com
>>>
>>> o:801.649.6594
>>> f:801.649.6595
>>>
>>> On Oct 13, 2009, at 7:10 AM, Ruth Hoffman wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hello Tim:
>>>> If this a tool for convincing people to use OFBiz, then IMO, we are 
>>>> way off the mark. The backend applications where the BiznessTime 
>>>> theme has been applied are designed for end-users who may not and 
>>>> probably do not have any experience with HTML or CSS. Lets not 
>>>> forget who our audience is here.
>>>>
>>>> If the foundation, as you say is so solid (and I have not doubt 
>>>> that it is), then reverting back to a simpler yet more accessible 
>>>> theme should be the way to go.  Fancier is not always better.
>>>>
>>>> On another note, could you point me to the end-user documentation 
>>>> covering  creating new themes. I'd be happy to try this out and 
>>>> post my findings.
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Ruth
>>>> ----------------------------------------------------
>>>> Ruth Hoffman, Author, Mentor & OFBiz Enthusiast
>>>> Ruth.Hoffman@myofbiz.com
>>>> Looking for more OFBiz info, please visit my website: 
>>>> http://www.myofbiz.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Tim Ruppert wrote:
>>>>> We exclusively use the BizznessTime theme with clients because 
>>>>> it's WAY easier to change, skin and adapt to everyone's liking / 
>>>>> look and feel.  I think it would be a huge mistake to roll it back 
>>>>> to the Flat Grey as we have not had any of the same problems once 
>>>>> everyone gets over the initial shock of seeing something different.
>>>>>
>>>>> If the community wants to roll it back - then go for it - but it 
>>>>> isn't wise.  FIX the problems that you don't like in the 
>>>>> BizznessTime theme, or create one of your own - it's easy to do - 
>>>>> this is a much more solid foundation to build on then the old (and 
>>>>> looking really old) theme that's been in there since the 
>>>>> beginning.  Have any of you tried to edit the CSS to make any 
>>>>> changes that might not make it so "large"?  It should be pretty 
>>>>> easy with this setup.
>>>>>
>>>>> Anyways, think on it and do what you will do, but remember this is 
>>>>> still a tool for convincing people to use OFBiz.  I'd leave this 
>>>>> in place and change it to the ugly, ugly in your own installations 
>>>>> before I wanted to go back to Flay Grey as a sales tool ....
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>> Ruppert
>>>>> -- 
>>>>> Tim Ruppert
>>>>> HotWax Media
>>>>> http://www.hotwaxmedia.com
>>>>>
>>>>> o:801.649.6594
>>>>> f:801.649.6595
>>>>>
>>>>> On Oct 13, 2009, at 3:40 AM, Jacques Le Roux wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Hans,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So far,
>>>>>> * it seems that most people find things too large and prefer to 
>>>>>> zoom out.
>>>>>> * it seems also that not much specific bugs were reported, and 
>>>>>> those reported should be easily fixed (not quite sure though...)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I repeat myself about where to report about this subject : create 
>>>>>> a subtask at https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/OFBIZ-2398
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In his 1st reply Chris Snow suggested a change. But I'm not sure 
>>>>>> it's enough for doing the same thing as a zoom out
>>>>>> Maybe we could ask Ryan Foster if it's possble to shrink the size 
>>>>>> (of everything ) else we may vote for the "return of Flat Grey" 
>>>>>> as default
>>>>>> theme.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What do you people think ?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Jacques
>>>>>> PS : Hans I saw you opened a subtask for the field size issue, 
>>>>>> thanks!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> From: "Hans Bakker" <mailinglist@antwebsystems.com 
>>>>>> <ma...@antwebsystems.com>>
>>>>>>> Sure the Business theme looks good but.....
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The general problem is that the characters, fields and actually
>>>>>>> everything is far too big....If i specify a field to be 2 
>>>>>>> characters, at
>>>>>>> least 5 fit in....
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So set the default to flat_gray in general properties is perhaps 
>>>>>>> better.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>> Hans
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Mon, 2009-10-12 at 16:19 +0200, Jacques Le Roux wrote:
>>>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I'd like to know what the community thinks about Bizness Time 
>>>>>>>> as default theme.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Do you use it?
>>>>>>>> Do you change for another theme ?
>>>>>>>> Which one fo you prefer?
>>>>>>>> Did you find bugs in one of the theme but not another?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Thanks
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Jacques
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>>> Antwebsystems.com <http://Antwebsystems.com>: Quality OFBiz 
>>>>>>> services for competitive rates
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>
>

Re: Default theme ?

Posted by Ryan Foster <ry...@hotwaxmedia.com>.

Since my colleagues and I were largely responsible for the initial  
design of BizznessTime, which borrows very heavily from Brainfood's  
public facing site design (thanks guys!), I feel a certain amount of  
obligation to defend my position.  Let me first start off by saying  
thank you all very much for this discussion on user interface in  
general and for the feedback on the BizznessTime theme.  I sometimes  
feel like a lone wolf in a sea of developers immensely more talented  
than me when it comes to back-end programming, so I think a small  
amount of front-end discussion is refreshing.  I take a huge amount of  
pride in my work, and I welcome any and all feedback, positive or  
negative, that will allow me to enhance the user experience.

Secondly, many of the key elements of the design were clearly and  
carefully thought out, and are based on the work, research, and  
testing of respected organizations and individuals in user experience  
and interaction design:

In regards to the school of thought that all of the important content  
should be "above the fold" and that users shouldn't be required, do  
not like to scroll, will not scroll, etc; there has been extensive  
research that tends to suggest that this school of thought is  
outdated.  Jacob Nielsen discussed this back in 1997(!).  See the  
following links for support:

http://www.useit.com/alertbox/9712a.html
http://blog.clicktale.com/2006/12/23/unfolding-the-fold/
http://blog.clicktale.com/2007/10/05/clicktale-scrolling-research-report-v20-part-1-visibility-and-scroll-reach/
http://blog.clicktale.com/2007/12/04/clicktale-scrolling-research-report-v20-part-2-visitor-attention-and-web-page-exposure/
http://www.uie.com/brainsparks/2006/08/02/utilizing-the-cut-off-look-to-encourage-users-to-scroll/
http://www.boxesandarrows.com/view/blasting-the-myth-of

Next, as far as the applications drop down menu, this concept is again  
based on modern web trends and current research.  Companies such as  
Target, Walmart, Microsoft, OfficeMax, OfficeDepot, EMC, MTV, Ruby on  
Rails, etc. use so called "Mega Dropdowns" in their sites and  
applications.  Our friends in the community over at Alexander  
Interactive have been cited numerous times for the navigation they  
developed for ActionEnvelope.  I agree that showing the menu on hover  
rather than on click would be an enhancement, but I also don't think  
that having to click is a bad thing either.  Again, see the following  
resources:

http://www.uipattern.com/mega-drop-downs/
http://www.useit.com/alertbox/mega-dropdown-menus.html
http://www.sitepoint.com/blogs/2009/03/30/mega-drop-down-menus/
http://37signals.com/svn/posts/1647-mega-drop-down-navigation-at-basecamp-and-rails-guides-site
http://guides.rubyonrails.org/

Finally, as far as the statement "lets not forget who our audience  
is", I am acutely aware of who are audience is.  We have developed  
several client branded themes based on the BizznessTime theme, and  
have received very positive feedback.  When our clients are happy, I  
am happy.  You are right that fancier isn't always better, there is  
research suggesting that doesn't matter.  It may not be better, but  
people think that it is:

http://www.alistapart.com/articles/indefenseofeyecandy
http://www.consumerwebwatch.org/news/report3_credibilityresearch/stanfordPTL.pdf
http://ist.psu.edu/faculty_pages/jjansen/academic/pres/chi2007/jansen_branding_of_search_engines.pdf
http://sigchi.org/chi97/proceedings/paper/nt.htm
http://www.experiencedynamics.com/sites/default/files/spillers-emotiondesign-proceedings.pdf

I do agree with many points that have been made so far, and again, I  
appreciate the feedback.  The font-size is a little too big. The  
padding in and around the inputs and submit buttons can be dialed back  
a bit.  I am working on a patch right now that incorporates this  
feedback, as well as additional feedback and discoveries from the  
themes we have built based on the original BizznessTime theme.

I apologize for the very long-winded email, but I just wanted to give  
the community some insight into my thought process and design  
methodologies.  I hope this helps the discussion.

Thanks,

Ryan Foster
HotWax Media
801.671.0769
ryan.foster@hotwaxmedia.com




On Oct 13, 2009, at 8:09 AM, Ruth Hoffman wrote:

> Hi Tim:
> I fully understand your point of view and the constraints we all  
> labor under. Whether the old theme sucks or not is not in question  
> here.
>
> First question I have for you is what "guidelines" are you referring  
> to?
>
> Secondly, why should a new user have to change a theme in order to  
> use OFBiz applications. If, as you say its easy to change a theme,  
> then it should be incumbent on the knowledgeable experienced OFBiz  
> user to change themes and not the new user. New users have enough on  
> their plate just learning how the applications work.
>
> Thirdly, please don't throw around "its easy" to do something  
> without siting references. You insult my intelligence and every  
> other reader on this list by implying that anything concerning  
> recent releases of OFBiz is "easy".
>
> Regards,
> Ruth
>
> ----------------------------------------------------
> Ruth Hoffman, Author, Mentor & OFBiz Enthusiast
> Ruth.Hoffman@myofbiz.com
> Looking for more OFBiz info, please visit my website: http://www.myofbiz.com
>
>
>
> Tim Ruppert wrote:
>> We are all working within the constraints of _not_ redesigning the  
>> entire set of backend applications - which is really what needs to  
>> be done. The old theme sucks visually - has no spice, doesn't fit  
>> today's look and feel guidelines AT ALL, looks really old - so I'd  
>> say from someone who does this day in and day out - you're WAY off  
>> when it comes to the way that people react to it (be clear, this  
>> does not talk to using it on a day to day basis).  We've been very  
>> successful in building themes off of Bizzness Time - please are  
>> reacting in a really positive way.
>>
>> There is nothing other than a visual change on the BizznessTime  
>> theme.  There are no other extra widgets or the like.  it's just a  
>> reorganization of the data that's there to help give it a  
>> facelift.  I'm not talking to users - I'm talking to you and  
>> everyone else who has issues with it.  Fix it ... or go back to the  
>> old theme in your own setup - don't doom the rest of us to have to  
>> go apply first impressions with that really lame setup.
>>
>> As for the documentation - I'm not sure - checkout Confluence - we  
>> just dug in and tried to bring the backend apps out of the early  
>> 2000s instead of letting it sit stagnant.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Ruppert
>> -- 
>> Tim Ruppert
>> HotWax Media
>> http://www.hotwaxmedia.com
>>
>> o:801.649.6594
>> f:801.649.6595
>>
>> On Oct 13, 2009, at 7:10 AM, Ruth Hoffman wrote:
>>
>>> Hello Tim:
>>> If this a tool for convincing people to use OFBiz, then IMO, we  
>>> are way off the mark. The backend applications where the  
>>> BiznessTime theme has been applied are designed for end-users who  
>>> may not and probably do not have any experience with HTML or CSS.  
>>> Lets not forget who our audience is here.
>>>
>>> If the foundation, as you say is so solid (and I have not doubt  
>>> that it is), then reverting back to a simpler yet more accessible  
>>> theme should be the way to go.  Fancier is not always better.
>>>
>>> On another note, could you point me to the end-user documentation  
>>> covering  creating new themes. I'd be happy to try this out and  
>>> post my findings.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Ruth
>>> ----------------------------------------------------
>>> Ruth Hoffman, Author, Mentor & OFBiz Enthusiast
>>> Ruth.Hoffman@myofbiz.com
>>> Looking for more OFBiz info, please visit my website: http://www.myofbiz.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Tim Ruppert wrote:
>>>> We exclusively use the BizznessTime theme with clients because  
>>>> it's WAY easier to change, skin and adapt to everyone's liking /  
>>>> look and feel.  I think it would be a huge mistake to roll it  
>>>> back to the Flat Grey as we have not had any of the same problems  
>>>> once everyone gets over the initial shock of seeing something  
>>>> different.
>>>>
>>>> If the community wants to roll it back - then go for it - but it  
>>>> isn't wise.  FIX the problems that you don't like in the  
>>>> BizznessTime theme, or create one of your own - it's easy to do -  
>>>> this is a much more solid foundation to build on then the old  
>>>> (and looking really old) theme that's been in there since the  
>>>> beginning.  Have any of you tried to edit the CSS to make any  
>>>> changes that might not make it so "large"?  It should be pretty  
>>>> easy with this setup.
>>>>
>>>> Anyways, think on it and do what you will do, but remember this  
>>>> is still a tool for convincing people to use OFBiz.  I'd leave  
>>>> this in place and change it to the ugly, ugly in your own  
>>>> installations before I wanted to go back to Flay Grey as a sales  
>>>> tool ....
>>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> Ruppert
>>>> -- 
>>>> Tim Ruppert
>>>> HotWax Media
>>>> http://www.hotwaxmedia.com
>>>>
>>>> o:801.649.6594
>>>> f:801.649.6595
>>>>
>>>> On Oct 13, 2009, at 3:40 AM, Jacques Le Roux wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi Hans,
>>>>>
>>>>> So far,
>>>>> * it seems that most people find things too large and prefer to  
>>>>> zoom out.
>>>>> * it seems also that not much specific bugs were reported, and  
>>>>> those reported should be easily fixed (not quite sure though...)
>>>>>
>>>>> I repeat myself about where to report about this subject :  
>>>>> create a subtask at https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/OFBIZ-2398
>>>>>
>>>>> In his 1st reply Chris Snow suggested a change. But I'm not sure  
>>>>> it's enough for doing the same thing as a zoom out
>>>>> Maybe we could ask Ryan Foster if it's possble to shrink the  
>>>>> size (of everything ) else we may vote for the "return of Flat  
>>>>> Grey" as default
>>>>> theme.
>>>>>
>>>>> What do you people think ?
>>>>>
>>>>> Jacques
>>>>> PS : Hans I saw you opened a subtask for the field size issue,  
>>>>> thanks!
>>>>>
>>>>> From: "Hans Bakker" <mailinglist@antwebsystems.com <mailto:mailinglist@antwebsystems.com 
>>>>> >>
>>>>>> Sure the Business theme looks good but.....
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The general problem is that the characters, fields and actually
>>>>>> everything is far too big....If i specify a field to be 2  
>>>>>> characters, at
>>>>>> least 5 fit in....
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So set the default to flat_gray in general properties is  
>>>>>> perhaps better.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>> Hans
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mon, 2009-10-12 at 16:19 +0200, Jacques Le Roux wrote:
>>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'd like to know what the community thinks about Bizness Time  
>>>>>>> as default theme.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Do you use it?
>>>>>>> Do you change for another theme ?
>>>>>>> Which one fo you prefer?
>>>>>>> Did you find bugs in one of the theme but not another?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Jacques
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>> Antwebsystems.com <http://Antwebsystems.com>: Quality OFBiz  
>>>>>> services for competitive rates
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>

Re: Default theme ?

Posted by Ruth Hoffman <rh...@aesolves.com>.

Hi Tim:
I fully understand your point of view and the constraints we all labor 
under. Whether the old theme sucks or not is not in question here.

First question I have for you is what "guidelines" are you referring to?

Secondly, why should a new user have to change a theme in order to use 
OFBiz applications. If, as you say its easy to change a theme, then it 
should be incumbent on the knowledgeable experienced OFBiz user to 
change themes and not the new user. New users have enough on their plate 
just learning how the applications work.

Thirdly, please don't throw around "its easy" to do something without 
siting references. You insult my intelligence and every other reader on 
this list by implying that anything concerning recent releases of OFBiz 
is "easy".

Regards,
Ruth

----------------------------------------------------
Ruth Hoffman, Author, Mentor & OFBiz Enthusiast
Ruth.Hoffman@myofbiz.com
Looking for more OFBiz info, please visit my website: http://www.myofbiz.com



Tim Ruppert wrote:
> We are all working within the constraints of _not_ redesigning the 
> entire set of backend applications - which is really what needs to be 
> done. The old theme sucks visually - has no spice, doesn't fit today's 
> look and feel guidelines AT ALL, looks really old - so I'd say from 
> someone who does this day in and day out - you're WAY off when it 
> comes to the way that people react to it (be clear, this does not talk 
> to using it on a day to day basis).  We've been very successful in 
> building themes off of Bizzness Time - please are reacting in a really 
> positive way.
>
> There is nothing other than a visual change on the BizznessTime 
> theme.  There are no other extra widgets or the like.  it's just a 
> reorganization of the data that's there to help give it a facelift.  
> I'm not talking to users - I'm talking to you and everyone else who 
> has issues with it.  Fix it ... or go back to the old theme in your 
> own setup - don't doom the rest of us to have to go apply first 
> impressions with that really lame setup.
>
> As for the documentation - I'm not sure - checkout Confluence - we 
> just dug in and tried to bring the backend apps out of the early 2000s 
> instead of letting it sit stagnant.
>
> Cheers,
> Ruppert
> -- 
> Tim Ruppert
> HotWax Media
> http://www.hotwaxmedia.com
>
> o:801.649.6594
> f:801.649.6595
>
> On Oct 13, 2009, at 7:10 AM, Ruth Hoffman wrote:
>
>> Hello Tim:
>> If this a tool for convincing people to use OFBiz, then IMO, we are 
>> way off the mark. The backend applications where the BiznessTime 
>> theme has been applied are designed for end-users who may not and 
>> probably do not have any experience with HTML or CSS. Lets not forget 
>> who our audience is here.
>>
>> If the foundation, as you say is so solid (and I have not doubt that 
>> it is), then reverting back to a simpler yet more accessible theme 
>> should be the way to go.  Fancier is not always better.
>>
>> On another note, could you point me to the end-user documentation 
>> covering  creating new themes. I'd be happy to try this out and post 
>> my findings.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Ruth
>> ----------------------------------------------------
>> Ruth Hoffman, Author, Mentor & OFBiz Enthusiast
>> Ruth.Hoffman@myofbiz.com
>> Looking for more OFBiz info, please visit my website: 
>> http://www.myofbiz.com
>>
>>
>>
>> Tim Ruppert wrote:
>>> We exclusively use the BizznessTime theme with clients because it's 
>>> WAY easier to change, skin and adapt to everyone's liking / look and 
>>> feel.  I think it would be a huge mistake to roll it back to the 
>>> Flat Grey as we have not had any of the same problems once everyone 
>>> gets over the initial shock of seeing something different.
>>>
>>> If the community wants to roll it back - then go for it - but it 
>>> isn't wise.  FIX the problems that you don't like in the 
>>> BizznessTime theme, or create one of your own - it's easy to do - 
>>> this is a much more solid foundation to build on then the old (and 
>>> looking really old) theme that's been in there since the beginning.  
>>> Have any of you tried to edit the CSS to make any changes that might 
>>> not make it so "large"?  It should be pretty easy with this setup.
>>>
>>> Anyways, think on it and do what you will do, but remember this is 
>>> still a tool for convincing people to use OFBiz.  I'd leave this in 
>>> place and change it to the ugly, ugly in your own installations 
>>> before I wanted to go back to Flay Grey as a sales tool ....
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> Ruppert
>>> -- 
>>> Tim Ruppert
>>> HotWax Media
>>> http://www.hotwaxmedia.com
>>>
>>> o:801.649.6594
>>> f:801.649.6595
>>>
>>> On Oct 13, 2009, at 3:40 AM, Jacques Le Roux wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi Hans,
>>>>
>>>> So far,
>>>> * it seems that most people find things too large and prefer to 
>>>> zoom out.
>>>> * it seems also that not much specific bugs were reported, and 
>>>> those reported should be easily fixed (not quite sure though...)
>>>>
>>>> I repeat myself about where to report about this subject : create a 
>>>> subtask at https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/OFBIZ-2398
>>>>
>>>> In his 1st reply Chris Snow suggested a change. But I'm not sure 
>>>> it's enough for doing the same thing as a zoom out
>>>> Maybe we could ask Ryan Foster if it's possble to shrink the size 
>>>> (of everything ) else we may vote for the "return of Flat Grey" as 
>>>> default
>>>> theme.
>>>>
>>>> What do you people think ?
>>>>
>>>> Jacques
>>>> PS : Hans I saw you opened a subtask for the field size issue, thanks!
>>>>
>>>> From: "Hans Bakker" <mailinglist@antwebsystems.com 
>>>> <ma...@antwebsystems.com>>
>>>>> Sure the Business theme looks good but.....
>>>>>
>>>>> The general problem is that the characters, fields and actually
>>>>> everything is far too big....If i specify a field to be 2 
>>>>> characters, at
>>>>> least 5 fit in....
>>>>>
>>>>> So set the default to flat_gray in general properties is perhaps 
>>>>> better.
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>> Hans
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, 2009-10-12 at 16:19 +0200, Jacques Le Roux wrote:
>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'd like to know what the community thinks about Bizness Time as 
>>>>>> default theme.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Do you use it?
>>>>>> Do you change for another theme ?
>>>>>> Which one fo you prefer?
>>>>>> Did you find bugs in one of the theme but not another?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Jacques
>>>>>>
>>>>> -- 
>>>>> Antwebsystems.com <http://Antwebsystems.com>: Quality OFBiz 
>>>>> services for competitive rates
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>

Re: Default theme ?

Posted by Tim Ruppert <ti...@hotwaxmedia.com>.

We are all working within the constraints of _not_ redesigning the  
entire set of backend applications - which is really what needs to be  
done. The old theme sucks visually - has no spice, doesn't fit today's  
look and feel guidelines AT ALL, looks really old - so I'd say from  
someone who does this day in and day out - you're WAY off when it  
comes to the way that people react to it (be clear, this does not talk  
to using it on a day to day basis).  We've been very successful in  
building themes off of Bizzness Time - please are reacting in a really  
positive way.

There is nothing other than a visual change on the BizznessTime  
theme.  There are no other extra widgets or the like.  it's just a  
reorganization of the data that's there to help give it a facelift.   
I'm not talking to users - I'm talking to you and everyone else who  
has issues with it.  Fix it ... or go back to the old theme in your  
own setup - don't doom the rest of us to have to go apply first  
impressions with that really lame setup.

As for the documentation - I'm not sure - checkout Confluence - we  
just dug in and tried to bring the backend apps out of the early 2000s  
instead of letting it sit stagnant.

Cheers,
Ruppert
--
Tim Ruppert
HotWax Media
http://www.hotwaxmedia.com

o:801.649.6594
f:801.649.6595

On Oct 13, 2009, at 7:10 AM, Ruth Hoffman wrote:

> Hello Tim:
> If this a tool for convincing people to use OFBiz, then IMO, we are  
> way off the mark. The backend applications where the BiznessTime  
> theme has been applied are designed for end-users who may not and  
> probably do not have any experience with HTML or CSS. Lets not  
> forget who our audience is here.
>
> If the foundation, as you say is so solid (and I have not doubt that  
> it is), then reverting back to a simpler yet more accessible theme  
> should be the way to go.  Fancier is not always better.
>
> On another note, could you point me to the end-user documentation  
> covering  creating new themes. I'd be happy to try this out and post  
> my findings.
>
> Regards,
> Ruth
> ----------------------------------------------------
> Ruth Hoffman, Author, Mentor & OFBiz Enthusiast
> Ruth.Hoffman@myofbiz.com
> Looking for more OFBiz info, please visit my website: http://www.myofbiz.com
>
>
>
> Tim Ruppert wrote:
>> We exclusively use the BizznessTime theme with clients because it's  
>> WAY easier to change, skin and adapt to everyone's liking / look  
>> and feel.  I think it would be a huge mistake to roll it back to  
>> the Flat Grey as we have not had any of the same problems once  
>> everyone gets over the initial shock of seeing something different.
>>
>> If the community wants to roll it back - then go for it - but it  
>> isn't wise.  FIX the problems that you don't like in the  
>> BizznessTime theme, or create one of your own - it's easy to do -  
>> this is a much more solid foundation to build on then the old (and  
>> looking really old) theme that's been in there since the  
>> beginning.  Have any of you tried to edit the CSS to make any  
>> changes that might not make it so "large"?  It should be pretty  
>> easy with this setup.
>>
>> Anyways, think on it and do what you will do, but remember this is  
>> still a tool for convincing people to use OFBiz.  I'd leave this in  
>> place and change it to the ugly, ugly in your own installations  
>> before I wanted to go back to Flay Grey as a sales tool ....
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Ruppert
>> --
>> Tim Ruppert
>> HotWax Media
>> http://www.hotwaxmedia.com
>>
>> o:801.649.6594
>> f:801.649.6595
>>
>> On Oct 13, 2009, at 3:40 AM, Jacques Le Roux wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Hans,
>>>
>>> So far,
>>> * it seems that most people find things too large and prefer to  
>>> zoom out.
>>> * it seems also that not much specific bugs were reported, and  
>>> those reported should be easily fixed (not quite sure though...)
>>>
>>> I repeat myself about where to report about this subject : create  
>>> a subtask at https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/OFBIZ-2398
>>>
>>> In his 1st reply Chris Snow suggested a change. But I'm not sure  
>>> it's enough for doing the same thing as a zoom out
>>> Maybe we could ask Ryan Foster if it's possble to shrink the size  
>>> (of everything ) else we may vote for the "return of Flat Grey" as  
>>> default
>>> theme.
>>>
>>> What do you people think ?
>>>
>>> Jacques
>>> PS : Hans I saw you opened a subtask for the field size issue,  
>>> thanks!
>>>
>>> From: "Hans Bakker" <mailinglist@antwebsystems.com <mailto:mailinglist@antwebsystems.com 
>>> >>
>>>> Sure the Business theme looks good but.....
>>>>
>>>> The general problem is that the characters, fields and actually
>>>> everything is far too big....If i specify a field to be 2  
>>>> characters, at
>>>> least 5 fit in....
>>>>
>>>> So set the default to flat_gray in general properties is perhaps  
>>>> better.
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Hans
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, 2009-10-12 at 16:19 +0200, Jacques Le Roux wrote:
>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>
>>>>> I'd like to know what the community thinks about Bizness Time as  
>>>>> default theme.
>>>>>
>>>>> Do you use it?
>>>>> Do you change for another theme ?
>>>>> Which one fo you prefer?
>>>>> Did you find bugs in one of the theme but not another?
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks
>>>>>
>>>>> Jacques
>>>>>
>>>> -- 
>>>> Antwebsystems.com <http://Antwebsystems.com>: Quality OFBiz  
>>>> services for competitive rates
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>

Re: Default theme ?

Posted by Ruth Hoffman <rh...@aesolves.com>.

Hello Tim:
If this a tool for convincing people to use OFBiz, then IMO, we are way 
off the mark. The backend applications where the BiznessTime theme has 
been applied are designed for end-users who may not and probably do not 
have any experience with HTML or CSS. Lets not forget who our audience 
is here.

If the foundation, as you say is so solid (and I have not doubt that it 
is), then reverting back to a simpler yet more accessible theme should 
be the way to go.  Fancier is not always better.

On another note, could you point me to the end-user documentation 
covering  creating new themes. I'd be happy to try this out and post my 
findings.

Regards,
Ruth
----------------------------------------------------
Ruth Hoffman, Author, Mentor & OFBiz Enthusiast
Ruth.Hoffman@myofbiz.com
Looking for more OFBiz info, please visit my website: http://www.myofbiz.com



Tim Ruppert wrote:
> We exclusively use the BizznessTime theme with clients because it's 
> WAY easier to change, skin and adapt to everyone's liking / look and 
> feel.  I think it would be a huge mistake to roll it back to the Flat 
> Grey as we have not had any of the same problems once everyone gets 
> over the initial shock of seeing something different.
>
> If the community wants to roll it back - then go for it - but it isn't 
> wise.  FIX the problems that you don't like in the BizznessTime theme, 
> or create one of your own - it's easy to do - this is a much more 
> solid foundation to build on then the old (and looking really old) 
> theme that's been in there since the beginning.  Have any of you tried 
> to edit the CSS to make any changes that might not make it so "large"? 
>  It should be pretty easy with this setup.
>
> Anyways, think on it and do what you will do, but remember this is 
> still a tool for convincing people to use OFBiz.  I'd leave this in 
> place and change it to the ugly, ugly in your own installations before 
> I wanted to go back to Flay Grey as a sales tool ....
>
> Cheers,
> Ruppert
> --
> Tim Ruppert
> HotWax Media
> http://www.hotwaxmedia.com
>
> o:801.649.6594
> f:801.649.6595
>
> On Oct 13, 2009, at 3:40 AM, Jacques Le Roux wrote:
>
>> Hi Hans,
>>
>> So far,
>> * it seems that most people find things too large and prefer to zoom out.
>> * it seems also that not much specific bugs were reported, and those 
>> reported should be easily fixed (not quite sure though...)
>>
>> I repeat myself about where to report about this subject : create a 
>> subtask at https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/OFBIZ-2398
>>
>> In his 1st reply Chris Snow suggested a change. But I'm not sure it's 
>> enough for doing the same thing as a zoom out
>> Maybe we could ask Ryan Foster if it's possble to shrink the size (of 
>> everything ) else we may vote for the "return of Flat Grey" as default
>> theme.
>>
>> What do you people think ?
>>
>> Jacques
>> PS : Hans I saw you opened a subtask for the field size issue, thanks!
>>
>> From: "Hans Bakker" <mailinglist@antwebsystems.com 
>> <ma...@antwebsystems.com>>
>>> Sure the Business theme looks good but.....
>>>
>>> The general problem is that the characters, fields and actually
>>> everything is far too big....If i specify a field to be 2 characters, at
>>> least 5 fit in....
>>>
>>> So set the default to flat_gray in general properties is perhaps better.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Hans
>>>
>>> On Mon, 2009-10-12 at 16:19 +0200, Jacques Le Roux wrote:
>>>> Hi,
>>>>
>>>> I'd like to know what the community thinks about Bizness Time as 
>>>> default theme.
>>>>
>>>> Do you use it?
>>>> Do you change for another theme ?
>>>> Which one fo you prefer?
>>>> Did you find bugs in one of the theme but not another?
>>>>
>>>> Thanks
>>>>
>>>> Jacques
>>>>
>>> -- 
>>> Antwebsystems.com <http://Antwebsystems.com>: Quality OFBiz services 
>>> for competitive rates
>>>
>>
>>
>

Re: Default theme ?

Posted by Tim Ruppert <ti...@hotwaxmedia.com>.

We exclusively use the BizznessTime theme with clients because it's  
WAY easier to change, skin and adapt to everyone's liking / look and  
feel.  I think it would be a huge mistake to roll it back to the Flat  
Grey as we have not had any of the same problems once everyone gets  
over the initial shock of seeing something different.

If the community wants to roll it back - then go for it - but it isn't  
wise.  FIX the problems that you don't like in the BizznessTime theme,  
or create one of your own - it's easy to do - this is a much more  
solid foundation to build on then the old (and looking really old)  
theme that's been in there since the beginning.  Have any of you tried  
to edit the CSS to make any changes that might not make it so  
"large"?  It should be pretty easy with this setup.

Anyways, think on it and do what you will do, but remember this is  
still a tool for convincing people to use OFBiz.  I'd leave this in  
place and change it to the ugly, ugly in your own installations before  
I wanted to go back to Flay Grey as a sales tool ....

Cheers,
Ruppert
--
Tim Ruppert
HotWax Media
http://www.hotwaxmedia.com

o:801.649.6594
f:801.649.6595

On Oct 13, 2009, at 3:40 AM, Jacques Le Roux wrote:

> Hi Hans,
>
> So far,
> * it seems that most people find things too large and prefer to zoom  
> out.
> * it seems also that not much specific bugs were reported, and those  
> reported should be easily fixed (not quite sure though...)
>
> I repeat myself about where to report about this subject : create a  
> subtask at https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/OFBIZ-2398
>
> In his 1st reply Chris Snow suggested a change. But I'm not sure  
> it's enough for doing the same thing as a zoom out
> Maybe we could ask Ryan Foster if it's possble to shrink the size  
> (of everything ) else we may vote for the "return of Flat Grey" as  
> default
> theme.
>
> What do you people think ?
>
> Jacques
> PS : Hans I saw you opened a subtask for the field size issue, thanks!
>
> From: "Hans Bakker" <ma...@antwebsystems.com>
>> Sure the Business theme looks good but.....
>>
>> The general problem is that the characters, fields and actually
>> everything is far too big....If i specify a field to be 2  
>> characters, at
>> least 5 fit in....
>>
>> So set the default to flat_gray in general properties is perhaps  
>> better.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Hans
>>
>> On Mon, 2009-10-12 at 16:19 +0200, Jacques Le Roux wrote:
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> I'd like to know what the community thinks about Bizness Time as  
>>> default theme.
>>>
>>> Do you use it?
>>> Do you change for another theme ?
>>> Which one fo you prefer?
>>> Did you find bugs in one of the theme but not another?
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>>
>>> Jacques
>>>
>> -- 
>> Antwebsystems.com: Quality OFBiz services for competitive rates
>>
>
>

Re: Default theme ?

Posted by Jacques Le Roux <ja...@les7arts.com>.

Hi Hans,

So far,
* it seems that most people find things too large and prefer to zoom out.
* it seems also that not much specific bugs were reported, and those reported should be easily fixed (not quite sure though...)

I repeat myself about where to report about this subject : create a subtask at https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/OFBIZ-2398

In his 1st reply Chris Snow suggested a change. But I'm not sure it's enough for doing the same thing as a zoom out
Maybe we could ask Ryan Foster if it's possble to shrink the size (of everything ) else we may vote for the "return of Flat Grey" as 
default
theme.

What do you people think ?

Jacques
PS : Hans I saw you opened a subtask for the field size issue, thanks!

From: "Hans Bakker" <ma...@antwebsystems.com>
> Sure the Business theme looks good but.....
>
> The general problem is that the characters, fields and actually
> everything is far too big....If i specify a field to be 2 characters, at
> least 5 fit in....
>
> So set the default to flat_gray in general properties is perhaps better.
>
> Regards,
> Hans
>
> On Mon, 2009-10-12 at 16:19 +0200, Jacques Le Roux wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> I'd like to know what the community thinks about Bizness Time as default theme.
>>
>> Do you use it?
>> Do you change for another theme ?
>> Which one fo you prefer?
>> Did you find bugs in one of the theme but not another?
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> Jacques
>>
> -- 
> Antwebsystems.com: Quality OFBiz services for competitive rates
>