Tuscany weekly IRC chat log (July-10-2006)

[ant elder <an...@gmail.com>]

Here's the log from today's chat. Staying well clear of controversy the
entire chat was about the Tuscany website. Everyone agreed it needs work and
there's even a some volunteers. A proposal to move from using maven to gen
the site to a simple toolkit based on velocity and xdoc, jboynes (i think,
was a bit unclear) is going to make a strawman for this in the sandbox. A
suggestion was that this makeover be done in time for the OSCON conference
which is in two weeks.

   ...ant

Session Start: Mon Jul 10 16:29:32 2006
Session Ident: #tuscany
* Now talking in #tuscany
<jsdelfino> hi
<ant_> hi
<kevin> hey
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<dkulp> Hey
<dwheeler> hi
<rfeng> hi
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<simonnash> hi.  Simon N here.
* ant_backIn3Mins is now known as ant
* ant is now known as ant_
<ant_> hi. everyones very quiet. what shall we chat about?
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<simonnash> there was post on dev list recently about some blog posts that
were not complimentary to Tuscany or SCA
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<simonnash> we could talk about how we might respond to those blogs
<Venkat> more than just responding to the blogs.. I think we must spruce the
content on the wiki / website... to nail on the points that differentiate
SCA
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<simonnash> that should be the website
<ant_> actually yes I agree with that Venkat. I was sitting next to someone
at the apachecon talk who knew nothing about Tuscany and he was looking at
the webiste while the talk was going on
<simonnash> the wiki is more for work in progress.  we can use it to create
the website content
<ant_> his 1st comment was there was sooo much text on the home page
<Venkat> and then some very general statements...
<jboynes> I'd like to suggest simplifying the site and the site build
<jboynes> Geir did something like this a long time ago for the Geronimo site
<jboynes> and built a simple toolkit based on velocity and xdoc
<jboynes> it's been picked up by a couple of other projects (incubator, jdo,
harmony)
<simonnash> yes.  it needs to have "teaser" articles with a "more..." link
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<jboynes> I'd like to suggest switching to it rather than maven
<jboynes> it may make it easier to get content on the site
<simonnash> the history is way out of date.  no bews since March!!!
<simonnash> news
<jboynes> and its content that we need :)
<dwheeler> I'm going to agree that the site could really use some
simplification.
<dwheeler> when I was first trying to figure out exactly what tuscany was
all about only a few weeks ago, the site was my main resource.
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<simonnash> the geronimo page has a bit more interesting layout
<dwheeler> and it took reading quite a few white papers before I felt like I
knew what tuscany/SCA was about.
<halehM> what suggestions do you have David?
<simonnash> tabs at the top are a nice touch... easy to hop about and get
more info
* Looking up dwheeler user info...
<halehM> Geranmio page looks good to me as well. Everyone agrees?
<ant_> well yes, but most people will know what a J2EE server which makes it
easier for them
<ant_> it woul dbe nice if we could have a kind of overview picture for SCA
<halehM> So, can we talk about the message a bit. Right now we dump SCA,
SDO, DAS in 3 different languages on the same page
<ant_> something like http://incubator.apache.org/servicemix/
<cr22rc> we put a lot of content at the beginning to explain it some ... but
it's a whole lot more difficult I think given the breath of techologies for
tuscany sca / sdo /das also cpp java etc
<dwheeler> It might help if there was a page with a few diagrams
demonstrating the SCA orginization and integration.
<dwheeler> Similiar to those in the SCA white paper.
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<jboynes> perhaps we should focus the main message on SCA
<Venkat> Yes... and different perspectives of details.  I would start with
what's in there for a Solution Developer...
<Venkat> something that hooks developers to look into this paradigm of
application development / design
<halehM> So, hightlight how SCA solves SOA problem and then backup pages or
tabs like Geranimo on SDO and DAS?
<jboynes> something like http://maven.apache.org/ with the sub-bar with
links to the other projects
<Venkat> Is there a new paradigm to application design / assembly over here
<jboynes> (m1, continuum, scm, ...)
<Venkat> is that something that can catch the eye of people looking for new,
cool stuff
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<jboynes> I think we need that on the home page
<halehM> What Ant pointed out is kind of nice as well. Highlights what the
project does, provides a quick architecture diagram and outlines features:
http://incubator.apache.org/servicemix/
<jboynes> hey, look, this is SCA and its cool - look at what it can do
<kgoodson> yes, the servicemix site looks very inviting
<jsdelfino> I think it would be nice to have a high level diagram that gives
you an idea of what SCA is, without having to read a page of text
<jmarino> sorry for joining late but are we just talking about the SCA part
or the main landing page?
<kevin> yes.  a simple graphic on the first page is nice
<kgoodson> i'm sure we have some foils that could form the basis of that
<rfeng> yes, some diagrams from the SCA spec are good for this purpose
<jsdelfino> one diagram about SCA, the other showing the architecture of the
Tuscany runtime, and the component types and binding types we have
<dkulp> Obviously, there is the issue of "diagram of sandbox" or "diagram of
main" for the tuscany part.....
<kgoodson> an image map, with links would be good,  i went to click on the
servicemix picture,  but alas it doesn't take me anywhere
<rfeng> good idea, same should apply to the SCA component/composite diagram.
when you click on the reference, it should explain the "reference" concept
in SCA
<simonnash> cool
<jboynes> cool
<jboynes> let
<jboynes> let
<jboynes> let's not be over ambitious though
<jboynes> I think first we need to just clean up that page :)
<simonnash> yes, first things first
<jsdelfino> there are some nice diagrams showing a composite in the Apache
Con presentation
<Venkat> yes but do we have a 'bigger' picture of Tuscany .. just like what
is there for ServiceMix
<jsdelfino> pages 4 and 5 of the presentation
<jboynes> have we kind of agreed that the main page just shows sca with tabs
off it for sdo, das etc.
<kgoodson> i don't think the image map would be a substitute for all the
text links,  just as in good ui design,  so we could do the basic clean up,
and then refine from what we have the features that we'd like to have in a
diagram.  It migt be a good discipline though to have in the back of our
mind that if were putting a link on the front page that couldn't be
envisaged in the diagram, then it might...
<kgoodson> ...not be the right place to put the link
<cr22rc> By SCA do mean mostly highlight the assembly aspect?  I mean up to
now I think we tried to keep the technologies on an equal footing
<jboynes> yes, the assembly/programming model stuff
<jboynes> we did try to keep them equal
<kgoodson> jboynes, that sounds like it tells the main message best
<jboynes> but all the questions/flames are on sca and not the other techs
<simonnash> is that a good reason to keep them equal?  will it create even
less interest if we move the others out?
<kgoodson> but i don't want to do SDO/DAS a disservice,  it still needs to
be prominent
<simonnash> i don't see it as first class and second class
<simonnash> i see them as equal tabs, but we make the SCA tab the one that
comes up first
<jboynes> a bit like the maven site?
<kgoodson> yes, that sounds good
<kgoodson> (both simon and jeremy)
<kevin> sounds good to me
<kevin> SCA tab first, that is
<Venkat> or if we weave up layers where we could project SCA & SDO in its
repective space..
<simonnash> yes, like maven, though I prefer the "real tab" images on
geronimo
<kgoodson> venkat, by "weave up layers" did you mean something more that the
tabs in the maven/geronimo sites?
<simonnash> layers as in a 3D-like image of SCA/SDO/DAS?
<Venkat> if you look at the service mix site... the figure there shows where
BPEL or JCA comes in.. in the broader picture.
<Venkat> similarly if we had a broader picture where we position SCA, SDO,
DAS
<Venkat> that will be good... I thought...
<jboynes> taking a time check, do we have volunteers to work on this
<jboynes> ?
<jboynes> I'm willing to help
<cr22rc> I'll help out some
<kgoodson> yes, i'll chip in
<Venkat> me too... with some help and guidance though :)
<ant_> i can help but mainly in review and comments. I'm hopeless at graphic
design, making websites etc
<cr22rc> I assume that we are moving then away from maven as the tool for
this?
<kgoodson> i can do the imagemap stuff i think
<rfeng> back to the blogs/comments, do we have a list of key
points/complaints?
<jboynes> I have some
<kgoodson> i saw some tooling in the GIMP for doing this stuff that looked
fairly simple
<jboynes> cool
<cr22rc> complaints?  just catching up ...
<jboynes> we got flamed around apachecone
<rfeng> we should get a list and address the concerns in the format of
blog/wiki/web site Q&A?
<jboynes> I have some comments/clarifications but I think it would be good
to get the site sorted first
<cr22rc> since I put most of it up there ..guess I'm to blame
<cr22rc> hey ... can we get those complains in the form a open jira ?
<jboynes> otherwise w'll spur traffic and people will come to the site and
it will just get worse
<ant_> i have to go. ttyal...
* ant_ is now known as ant_away
<jboynes> I'd like to suggest we finish the makeover before oscon
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<jboynes> then we can blog/speak/evangelize there
<jboynes> sound like a plan?
<kevin> yes
<kgoodson> yes,  its definitely a plan,  it just requires reemphasising
things, and that my SDO development efforts are further delayed
<kevin> i can help with the DAS page set up and content
<jboynes> thanks
<kevin> will need for a framework to be in place thoiugh
<kgoodson> if that's what's best from for the project then fine
<jboynes> any interest in using geir's toolkit rather than maven
<jboynes> ?
<jboynes> I've used it for editing the incubator site and it seems fairly
simple
<jmarino> he used it for Geronimo right?
<cr22rc> can you give use a few urls to how to use it and then we get back
on this ... tough to make a decision about something we don't know much
about
<cr22rc> or am I the only one ?
<jboynes> there's a howto on editing the incubator site
<jmarino> no I think it is a good idea to eval first
<jboynes> I'd have to google it to find it
<jboynes> how about a simple strawman in the sandbox?
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<cr22rc> prototype in the sandbox ?
<jboynes> yes
<cr22rc> sounds good to me
<jmarino> sounds good to me too
<jboynes> can anyone here draw (do graphics) ?
* jliu has left #tuscany
<dwheeler> I can (to an extent)
<jboynes> thanks - I can't draw to save my life :)
<kgoodson> i'm good at pilfering and adapting,  but original artwork is not
my forte
<dwheeler> I've done graphics work for a few websites before.
<cr22rc> do have some rough samples from stuff that has been pitched before
? can put them in the sandbox as proposed starting points ?
<cr22rc> Give us a target to talk about ?
<jboynes> sounds good
<kgoodson> so jejrmy's slides are at
http://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/incubator/tuscany/site/src/site/resources/Tuscany%20ApacheConEU%202006.ppt

<kgoodson> he suggested slide 4 and 5 as somewhere to start
<kgoodson> someone kindly translated them to open office too i think
<kgoodson> yes,
https://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/incubator/tuscany/site/src/site/resources/Tuscany%20ApacheConEU%202006.sxi
<Venkat> The diagrams on slide 4 & 5 in my opinion can come in for one level
drill down ... for example if we had a block diagram where we could position
SCA Application Assembly, say top on the stack, then clickin on this block
could take you to another page where these two slide will fit well...
<Venkat> I am posting on the mailing list a block diagram that I made for
some personal understanding ... I don't claim that to be corrent or absolute
:-) but maybe it will provide some triggers to coming up with the right and
absolute one
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Re: Tuscany weekly IRC chat log (July-10-2006)

[Jeremy Boynes <jb...@apache.org>]

On Jul 10, 2006, at 2:22 PM, ant elder wrote:

> Here's the log from today's chat. Staying well clear of controversy  
> the
> entire chat was about the Tuscany website. Everyone agreed it needs  
> work and
> there's even a some volunteers. A proposal to move from using maven  
> to gen
> the site to a simple toolkit based on velocity and xdoc, jboynes (i  
> think,
> was a bit unclear) is going to make a strawman for this in the  
> sandbox. A
> suggestion was that this makeover be done in time for the OSCON  
> conference
> which is in two weeks.
>

I added a strawman:
https://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/incubator/tuscany/sandbox/jboynes/site

There's a readme at the root which says how to build the site (it is  
the same as for the incubator).
There's no content there except a very simple index page.

--
Jeremy

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