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Posted to legal-discuss@apache.org by "C. Bergström" <co...@osunix.org> on 2011/02/04 17:57:14 UTC
Apache project moving externally
Hi
There's an Apache project that has somewhat stalled in development and a
small group of developers are interested to take up ownership. Has a
handover ever been known to happen or is such a thing possible if the
leaders for the project agree to it? By this I mean like transferring
some rights over to SPI or another FOSS oriented non-profit.
Thanks
./C
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Re: Apache project moving externally
Posted by Sam Ruby <ru...@intertwingly.net>.
2011/2/4 "C. Bergström" <co...@osunix.org>:
> Hi
>
> There's an Apache project that has somewhat stalled in development and a
> small group of developers are interested to take up ownership. Has a
> handover ever been known to happen or is such a thing possible if the
> leaders for the project agree to it? By this I mean like transferring some
> rights over to SPI or another FOSS oriented non-profit.
First, I would like to point out that the Apache License, Version 2
makes the code available under very generous terms; generally forks
are allowed without even asking our permission -- as long as you
follow the terms of the license.
That being said, if there is no interest in the code base being
developed at the ASF, and the PMC in charge of that code base can move
the project to the attic here and continue the development elsewhere.
An example of this occurred last year:
http://ibatis.apache.org/
> Thanks
>
> ./C
- Sam Ruby
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Re: Apache project moving externally
Posted by "William A. Rowe Jr." <wr...@apache.org>.
On 2/4/2011 12:41 PM, "C. Bergström" wrote:
>>
> This is of my own personal curiosity and not related to my original question
> ------------
> I do realize that the ASF doesn't in fact take copyright assignment. It was however my
> understanding [1] that the ASF's individual and corporate contributor agreement is a
> superset of rights compared to the APL. Thus I thought the ASF can at it's discretion
> move to a newer version of the APL if desired.
>
> [1] I'm not a lawyer and haven't read the contributor agreement
http://www.apache.org/licenses/#clas
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Re: Apache project moving externally
Posted by "C. Bergström" <co...@osunix.org>.
Greg Stein wrote:
> I say "whatever". We've covered most of the meta, and need to get
> concrete. Which project?
>
I was clear in my previous two posts they were personal questions. The
answers are clear and appreciated.
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Re: Apache project moving externally
Posted by Greg Stein <gs...@gmail.com>.
I say "whatever". We've covered most of the meta, and need to get
concrete. Which project?
On Fri, Feb 4, 2011 at 15:14, Benson Margulies <bi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Here's a guess as to why the discussion is about exit, and I'd
> appreciate it if the originator of this thread would confirm or
> disconfirm.
>
> You can't have a viable Apache TLP with out Contributors=N, N>3. If
> the code is relatively stable, and the contributor base is really
> small, the enthusiasm isn't enough.
>
> Is this the general lay of the land?
>
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Re: Apache project moving externally
Posted by Ralph Goers <ra...@dslextreme.com>.
On Feb 4, 2011, at 12:14 PM, Benson Margulies wrote:
> Here's a guess as to why the discussion is about exit, and I'd
> appreciate it if the originator of this thread would confirm or
> disconfirm.
>
> You can't have a viable Apache TLP with out Contributors=N, N>3. If
> the code is relatively stable, and the contributor base is really
> small, the enthusiasm isn't enough.
>
> Is this the general lay of the land?
>
Commons has quite a few sub-projects with a small contributor base. I guess that is sorta the point of the project.
Ralph
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Re: Apache project moving externally
Posted by Benson Margulies <bi...@gmail.com>.
Here's a guess as to why the discussion is about exit, and I'd
appreciate it if the originator of this thread would confirm or
disconfirm.
You can't have a viable Apache TLP with out Contributors=N, N>3. If
the code is relatively stable, and the contributor base is really
small, the enthusiasm isn't enough.
Is this the general lay of the land?
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Re: Apache project moving externally
Posted by Greg Stein <gs...@gmail.com>.
On Fri, Feb 4, 2011 at 14:46, Marvin Humphrey <ma...@rectangular.com> wrote:
> On Fri, Feb 04, 2011 at 02:15:20PM -0500, Greg Stein wrote:
>> With the rights from the CLAs and software grants... yes, we can
>> pretty much license the code however we like.
>
> Not all contributions come from someone with a CLA or Software Grant on file,
> though. Such contributions would fall under section 5 of the ASL2:
>
> 5. Submission of Contributions. Unless You explicitly state otherwise, any
> Contribution intentionally submitted for inclusion in the Work by You to the
> Licensor shall be under the terms and conditions of this License, without
> any additional terms or conditions. Notwithstanding the above, nothing
> herein shall supersede or modify the terms of any separate license agreement
> you may have executed with Licensor regarding such Contributions.
>
> Does that passage allow relicensing by the ASF, as recipient of such
> contributions?
Good point. It's a very grey area, I grant you.
Certainly, the ASF is always going to stick with something in spirit
to the ALv2. Any "v3" is going to be evolutionary rather than a
philosophical change, so the Contributions clause will always work for
us. If we grant our rights to another non-profit, could they switch to
(say) GPL? Unclear.
Cheers,
-g
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Re: Apache project moving externally
Posted by Marvin Humphrey <ma...@rectangular.com>.
On Fri, Feb 04, 2011 at 02:15:20PM -0500, Greg Stein wrote:
> With the rights from the CLAs and software grants... yes, we can
> pretty much license the code however we like.
Not all contributions come from someone with a CLA or Software Grant on file,
though. Such contributions would fall under section 5 of the ASL2:
5. Submission of Contributions. Unless You explicitly state otherwise, any
Contribution intentionally submitted for inclusion in the Work by You to the
Licensor shall be under the terms and conditions of this License, without
any additional terms or conditions. Notwithstanding the above, nothing
herein shall supersede or modify the terms of any separate license agreement
you may have executed with Licensor regarding such Contributions.
Does that passage allow relicensing by the ASF, as recipient of such
contributions?
Marvin Humphrey
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Re: Apache project moving externally
Posted by Greg Stein <gs...@gmail.com>.
2011/2/4 "C. Bergström" <co...@osunix.org>:
> Greg Stein wrote:
>...
>> But. We cannot transfer those rights to individuals or corporations.
>> We can only transfer them to another non-profit.
>
> Once again outside of my original question I wasn't even sure if the ASF
> board would consider such a transfer. For example to an educational
> institute (University of Illinois), SPI or maybe one of the BSD foundations.
We would only consider the transfer if it came from the community in
question, where that whole community wants to pick up and leave. I do
not think we would fulfill this request to somebody simply asking for
rights to one of our projects. (this is my impression of the Board's
response, as a Director myself)
Which project are you thinking of? If it is one of our Attic projects,
then the Board might be fine with it. If one of our TLPs, then we need
a discussion of just how "dead" that project is, and what the existing
community thinks of such a grant.
Cheers,
-g
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Re: Apache project moving externally
Posted by "C. Bergström" <co...@osunix.org>.
Greg Stein wrote:
> 2011/2/4 "C. Bergström" <co...@osunix.org>:
>
>> William A. Rowe Jr. wrote:
>>
>>> On 2/4/2011 10:57 AM, "C. Bergström" wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> There's an Apache project that has somewhat stalled in development and a
>>>> small group of
>>>> developers are interested to take up ownership. Has a handover ever been
>>>> known to happen
>>>> or is such a thing possible if the leaders for the project agree to it?
>>>> By this I mean
>>>> like transferring some rights over to SPI or another FOSS oriented
>>>> non-profit.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Sam gave you good feedback. One thing he didn't address was 'ownership'.
>>>
>>>
>> This is of my own personal curiosity and not related to my original question
>> ------------
>> I do realize that the ASF doesn't in fact take copyright assignment. It was
>> however my understanding [1] that the ASF's individual and corporate
>> contributor agreement is a superset of rights compared to the APL. Thus I
>> thought the ASF can at it's discretion move to a newer version of the APL if
>> desired.
>>
>
> With the rights from the CLAs and software grants... yes, we can
> pretty much license the code however we like.
>
> But. We cannot transfer those rights to individuals or corporations.
> We can only transfer them to another non-profit.
>
Once again outside of my original question I wasn't even sure if the ASF
board would consider such a transfer. For example to an educational
institute (University of Illinois), SPI or maybe one of the BSD foundations.
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Re: Apache project moving externally
Posted by Greg Stein <gs...@gmail.com>.
2011/2/4 "C. Bergström" <co...@osunix.org>:
> William A. Rowe Jr. wrote:
>>
>> On 2/4/2011 10:57 AM, "C. Bergström" wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> There's an Apache project that has somewhat stalled in development and a
>>> small group of
>>> developers are interested to take up ownership. Has a handover ever been
>>> known to happen
>>> or is such a thing possible if the leaders for the project agree to it?
>>> By this I mean
>>> like transferring some rights over to SPI or another FOSS oriented
>>> non-profit.
>>>
>>
>> Sam gave you good feedback. One thing he didn't address was 'ownership'.
>>
>
> This is of my own personal curiosity and not related to my original question
> ------------
> I do realize that the ASF doesn't in fact take copyright assignment. It was
> however my understanding [1] that the ASF's individual and corporate
> contributor agreement is a superset of rights compared to the APL. Thus I
> thought the ASF can at it's discretion move to a newer version of the APL if
> desired.
With the rights from the CLAs and software grants... yes, we can
pretty much license the code however we like.
But. We cannot transfer those rights to individuals or corporations.
We can only transfer them to another non-profit.
This is why you can use/fork our code to a new project, but must
continue to respect the Apache License on it. Your new work within the
codebase can be licensed however you like, of course. If that is
different from ALv2, then you'll simply have a mixed-license codebase.
The ALv2 is compatible with most licenses, so that isn't necessarily a
problem. But you cannot remove/swap the license on the ASF code that
you lift into your own codebase.
And as mentioned elsewhere, and it bears repeating: if the codebase
here is stalling (which?), then I bet they'd definitely welcome your
interest! (and if not, then I *really* want to know which one!)
Cheers,
-g
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Re: Apache project moving externally
Posted by "C. Bergström" <co...@osunix.org>.
William A. Rowe Jr. wrote:
> On 2/4/2011 10:57 AM, "C. Bergström" wrote:
>
>> There's an Apache project that has somewhat stalled in development and a small group of
>> developers are interested to take up ownership. Has a handover ever been known to happen
>> or is such a thing possible if the leaders for the project agree to it? By this I mean
>> like transferring some rights over to SPI or another FOSS oriented non-profit.
>>
>
> Sam gave you good feedback. One thing he didn't address was 'ownership'.
>
This is of my own personal curiosity and not related to my original question
------------
I do realize that the ASF doesn't in fact take copyright assignment. It
was however my understanding [1] that the ASF's individual and corporate
contributor agreement is a superset of rights compared to the APL. Thus
I thought the ASF can at it's discretion move to a newer version of the
APL if desired.
[1] I'm not a lawyer and haven't read the contributor agreement
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Re: Apache project moving externally
Posted by "William A. Rowe Jr." <wr...@apache.org>.
On 2/4/2011 10:57 AM, "C. Bergström" wrote:
>
> There's an Apache project that has somewhat stalled in development and a small group of
> developers are interested to take up ownership. Has a handover ever been known to happen
> or is such a thing possible if the leaders for the project agree to it? By this I mean
> like transferring some rights over to SPI or another FOSS oriented non-profit.
Sam gave you good feedback. One thing he didn't address was 'ownership'.
The ASF committers do not transfer copyright to the foundation. This is
markedly different from how, say, the FSF or some other open source efforts
operate, who accept the assignment of copyright and have complete flexibility
(within their organizational charter restrictions), e.g. FSF owned code was
easily migrated from GPLv2 to GPLv3. Non-FSF owned code such as the Linux
kernel proves almost impossible to relicense, even if the kernel maintainers
desired to do so.
What this denies you, the licensor, and we, the ASF, is the opportunity to
change the original terms of the license. If you wanted to actually
replace the copyright/license entirely by obtaining rather than licensing
copyright, you would need to go back to each and every committer and patch
contributor, and ask this individually for every code contribution.
But as Sam says, you need to study the Apache License, which grants you the
right to sublicense provided that the terms are compatible, and that the
chosen license does not remove the original Apache License restrictions that
the authors imposed on their contributions.
If by ownership you meant responsibility for... see Sam's response, and note
he addressed the code, but the project name itself is the ASF's and was not
transferred in the iBatis (now myBatis) case. I hope that distinction is clear.
If the group of developers you have in mind are willing to become active at
the ASF, I'm pretty certain that most lethargic projects would welcome the
new energies of new contributors. See
http://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html
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Re: Apache project moving externally
Posted by Jochen Wiedmann <jo...@gmail.com>.
What rights do you need? There are the sources and they are available
to you or anyone else under the ASL. More than sufficient for a
fork/takeover/whatever?
2011/2/4 "C. Bergström" <co...@osunix.org>:
> Hi
>
> There's an Apache project that has somewhat stalled in development and a
> small group of developers are interested to take up ownership. Has a
> handover ever been known to happen or is such a thing possible if the
> leaders for the project agree to it? By this I mean like transferring some
> rights over to SPI or another FOSS oriented non-profit.
>
> Thanks
>
> ./C
>
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>
>
--
I Am What I Am And That's All What I Yam (Popeye)
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