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Posted to dev@hbase.apache.org by Kay Kay <ka...@gmail.com> on 2010/01/21 00:34:05 UTC
Google patent over Map Reduce - Hbase reflections
A big thread currently going on at the hadoop common user mailing list -
http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/hadoop-common-user/201001.mbox/<2c...@mail.gmail.com>
.
A good number of you might have already seen that thread, but just
opening up a thread for discussion to see what the thoughts of the
community are , w.r.t. patent and how much (if at all) of the
application would be related to that / any refactorings as necessary as
seen by the team or thoughts in general to the same.
Re: Google patent over Map Reduce - Hbase reflections
Posted by Ryan Rawson <ry...@gmail.com>.
Wasnt there a bigtable patent announced some time ago? So far? Nothing.
I'm not even giving this a second thought.
On Wed, Jan 20, 2010 at 3:34 PM, Kay Kay <ka...@gmail.com> wrote:
> A big thread currently going on at the hadoop common user mailing list -
>
> http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/hadoop-common-user/201001.mbox/<2c...@mail.gmail.com>
> .
>
> A good number of you might have already seen that thread, but just opening
> up a thread for discussion to see what the thoughts of the community are ,
> w.r.t. patent and how much (if at all) of the application would be related
> to that / any refactorings as necessary as seen by the team or thoughts in
> general to the same.
>
>
>
Re: Google patent over Map Reduce - Hbase reflections
Posted by Ryan Rawson <ry...@gmail.com>.
Software patents is dangerous territory for developers. Typically
advice I've been given is "ignorance is the best defense" - when you
are in a patent fight, claiming ignorance of the prior art is a
defensible position. Digging deeply into the mapreduce patent and
fully investigating the limits of their prior art is an exercise I
will leave to patent lawyers and other people who are not actively
engaged in development. And that is my stand, and why I am
indifferent.
Besides which, most software patents tend to have a fairly narrow
scope, and small changes can avoid the wrath.
-ryan
On Fri, Jan 22, 2010 at 12:29 AM, Laurence Hubert
<La...@free.fr> wrote:
> Hi Andry, Bruce,
>
>
>
>> It's a fair argument that Hadoop mapreduce is a Google MapReduce clone --
>> which
>> has been extended in several directions by the community, of course. Given
>> that,
>> and the in my personal experience substantial commercial application of
>> the
>> technology already, clearly the success story has already spread far
>> beyond any
>> reasonable definition of "academic".
>
> Absolutely true. I am the proof of this :-) It turns out that I am a BIG FAN
> of both
> Hadoop and Hbase and I have a true willingness to use them in a real
> business ... and
> as soon as this business develops commit development resources to it. So I
> am not
> questioning the value of the work because I know this is great work and I
> know the
> adoption is going to be huge.
>
>
>> I am also of the opinion that this is a defensive move by Google. It would
>> be in
>> direct opposition to years of experience we have with this company should
>> they
>> go after the ASF in any way.
>
> I tend to agree (and with Bruce as well). Still from a business perspective
> this is a risk
> and I hate risks :-(
>
>> Furthermore, I'm not a patent lawyer, but I believe for the HBase case,
>> that
>> HBase (and HDFS) are not covered by these patents, except for the
>> mapreduce
>> integration package, which could be dropped without any loss of HBase
>> functionality for clients using the HBase client API. So the direct impact
>> on
>> HBase for some worst-case scenario would be low as far as I can see.
>
> Unfortunately when you use HBase this is because you have to process large
> amount of data
> which means that by nature many of the HBase adopters are ALSO hadoop
> adopters.
> But thank you for your comment because somehow it helps understand the
> degree at which
> we would be impacted if Google wanted to enforce its intellectual property.
>
> Thanks Andy and Bruce, somehow the discussion helped.
>
> Laurence
>
> ----- Original Message ----
>>
>> From: Laurence Hubert <La...@free.fr>
>> To: hbase-dev@hadoop.apache.org
>> Sent: Thu, January 21, 2010 7:33:29 PM
>> Subject: Re: Google patent over Map Reduce - Hbase reflections
>>
>> Dear all,
>>
>> I think the impact of this patent should not be underestimated. If
>> Hadoop/HBase
>> is only an educational system and not used by anybody for any business
>> then I
>> agree there is no threat to the community...
>> but if companies are relaying on it to do business (and some started to
>> evaluate
>> the use of Hadoop/HBase in commercial systems) then the companies
>> businesses or
>> products might be threatened. This means, unless something is done,
>> companies
>> cannot select Hadoop/HBase anymore for implementations because this is too
>> much
>> of a risk... which is in fact the biggest threat to hadoop... it was
>> becoming
>> popular and companies started to consider supporting it (providing
>> development
>> resources...) because this was a possible platform for their businesses...
>>
>> In my opinion a healthy attitude to this would be to analyse what was
>> actually
>> *really* protected and be creative on how hadoop could/should
>> differentiate.
>> Because if hadoop is just a 1:1 replica of the Google system, then there
>> is no
>> chance that it will attract more than the academic community and its nice
>> success story is going to end here... I see enough intellectual power in
>> the
>> team to be able to take the Google patent and produce the next
>> generation...
>>
>> My two cents,
>> Laurence Hubert
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kay Kay"
>> To:
>> Sent: Thursday, January 21, 2010 3:28 AM
>> Subject: Re: Google patent over Map Reduce - Hbase reflections
>>
>>
>> > On 1/20/10 3:44 PM, stack wrote:
>> >> I've been following the thread. I would tend to side with the general
>> >> >> tenor
>> >> that has it that its likely a just-in-case move by Google and that the
>> >> likelihood of a Google suing Apache is not likely to happen in this
>> >> dimension.
>> >>
>> >>
>> > That was my general idea as well.
>> >
>> >> Are you (or your employer) spooked Kay Kay?
>> >>
>> >>
>> > Not at all - but just started this to see what the opinions of the
>> > community might be w.r.t. this.
>> >
>> >> St.Ack
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On Wed, Jan 20, 2010 at 3:34 PM, Kay Kay wrote:
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>> A big thread currently going on at the hadoop common user mailing >>>
>> >>> list -
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/hadoop-common-user/201001.mbox/<
>> >>> 2c36b701001200817g77f245b1x6ba9d7d2cfd9ec93@mail.gmail.com> .
>> >>>
>> >>> A good number of you might have already seen that thread, but just >>>
>> >>> opening
>> >>> up a thread for discussion to see what the thoughts of the community
>> >>> >>> are ,
>> >>> w.r.t. patent and how much (if at all) of the application would be >>>
>> >>> related
>> >>> to that / any refactorings as necessary as seen by the team or >>>
>> >>> thoughts in
>> >>> general to the same.
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>>
>> Ce message entrant est certifié sans virus connu.
>> Analyse effectuée par AVG - www.avg.fr
>> Version: 9.0.730 / Base de données virale: 271.1.1/2635 - Date: 01/20/10
>> 20:18:00
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
> Ce message entrant est certifié sans virus connu.
> Analyse effectuée par AVG - www.avg.fr
> Version: 9.0.730 / Base de données virale: 271.1.1/2636 - Date: 01/21/10
> 08:34:00
>
>
Re: Google patent over Map Reduce - Hbase reflections
Posted by Laurence Hubert <La...@free.fr>.
Hi Andry, Bruce,
> It's a fair argument that Hadoop mapreduce is a Google MapReduce clone --
> which
> has been extended in several directions by the community, of course. Given
> that,
> and the in my personal experience substantial commercial application of
> the
> technology already, clearly the success story has already spread far
> beyond any
> reasonable definition of "academic".
Absolutely true. I am the proof of this :-) It turns out that I am a BIG FAN
of both
Hadoop and Hbase and I have a true willingness to use them in a real
business ... and
as soon as this business develops commit development resources to it. So I
am not
questioning the value of the work because I know this is great work and I
know the
adoption is going to be huge.
> I am also of the opinion that this is a defensive move by Google. It would
> be in
> direct opposition to years of experience we have with this company should
> they
> go after the ASF in any way.
I tend to agree (and with Bruce as well). Still from a business perspective
this is a risk
and I hate risks :-(
> Furthermore, I'm not a patent lawyer, but I believe for the HBase case,
> that
> HBase (and HDFS) are not covered by these patents, except for the
> mapreduce
> integration package, which could be dropped without any loss of HBase
> functionality for clients using the HBase client API. So the direct impact
> on
> HBase for some worst-case scenario would be low as far as I can see.
Unfortunately when you use HBase this is because you have to process large
amount of data
which means that by nature many of the HBase adopters are ALSO hadoop
adopters.
But thank you for your comment because somehow it helps understand the
degree at which
we would be impacted if Google wanted to enforce its intellectual property.
Thanks Andy and Bruce, somehow the discussion helped.
Laurence
----- Original Message ----
> From: Laurence Hubert <La...@free.fr>
> To: hbase-dev@hadoop.apache.org
> Sent: Thu, January 21, 2010 7:33:29 PM
> Subject: Re: Google patent over Map Reduce - Hbase reflections
>
> Dear all,
>
> I think the impact of this patent should not be underestimated. If
> Hadoop/HBase
> is only an educational system and not used by anybody for any business
> then I
> agree there is no threat to the community...
> but if companies are relaying on it to do business (and some started to
> evaluate
> the use of Hadoop/HBase in commercial systems) then the companies
> businesses or
> products might be threatened. This means, unless something is done,
> companies
> cannot select Hadoop/HBase anymore for implementations because this is too
> much
> of a risk... which is in fact the biggest threat to hadoop... it was
> becoming
> popular and companies started to consider supporting it (providing
> development
> resources...) because this was a possible platform for their businesses...
>
> In my opinion a healthy attitude to this would be to analyse what was
> actually
> *really* protected and be creative on how hadoop could/should
> differentiate.
> Because if hadoop is just a 1:1 replica of the Google system, then there
> is no
> chance that it will attract more than the academic community and its nice
> success story is going to end here... I see enough intellectual power in
> the
> team to be able to take the Google patent and produce the next
> generation...
>
> My two cents,
> Laurence Hubert
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kay Kay"
> To:
> Sent: Thursday, January 21, 2010 3:28 AM
> Subject: Re: Google patent over Map Reduce - Hbase reflections
>
>
> > On 1/20/10 3:44 PM, stack wrote:
> >> I've been following the thread. I would tend to side with the general
> >> tenor
> >> that has it that its likely a just-in-case move by Google and that the
> >> likelihood of a Google suing Apache is not likely to happen in this
> >> dimension.
> >>
> >>
> > That was my general idea as well.
> >
> >> Are you (or your employer) spooked Kay Kay?
> >>
> >>
> > Not at all - but just started this to see what the opinions of the
> > community might be w.r.t. this.
> >
> >> St.Ack
> >>
> >>
> >> On Wed, Jan 20, 2010 at 3:34 PM, Kay Kay wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>> A big thread currently going on at the hadoop common user mailing
> >>> list -
> >>>
> >>> http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/hadoop-common-user/201001.mbox/<
> >>> 2c36b701001200817g77f245b1x6ba9d7d2cfd9ec93@mail.gmail.com> .
> >>>
> >>> A good number of you might have already seen that thread, but just
> >>> opening
> >>> up a thread for discussion to see what the thoughts of the community
> >>> are ,
> >>> w.r.t. patent and how much (if at all) of the application would be
> >>> related
> >>> to that / any refactorings as necessary as seen by the team or
> >>> thoughts in
> >>> general to the same.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >
> >
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
> Ce message entrant est certifié sans virus connu.
> Analyse effectuée par AVG - www.avg.fr
> Version: 9.0.730 / Base de données virale: 271.1.1/2635 - Date: 01/20/10
> 20:18:00
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ce message entrant est certifié sans virus connu.
Analyse effectuée par AVG - www.avg.fr
Version: 9.0.730 / Base de données virale: 271.1.1/2636 - Date: 01/21/10
08:34:00
Re: Google patent over Map Reduce - Hbase reflections
Posted by Andrew Purtell <ap...@apache.org>.
> Because if hadoop is just a 1:1 replica of the Google system, then there is no
> chance that it will attract more than the academic community and its nice
> success story is going to end here... I see enough intellectual power in the
> team to be able to take the Google patent and produce the next generation...
It's a fair argument that Hadoop mapreduce is a Google MapReduce clone -- which
has been extended in several directions by the community, of course. Given that,
and the in my personal experience substantial commercial application of the
technology already, clearly the success story has already spread far beyond any
reasonable definition of "academic".
I am also of the opinion that this is a defensive move by Google. It would be in
direct opposition to years of experience we have with this company should they
go after the ASF in any way.
Furthermore, I'm not a patent lawyer, but I believe for the HBase case, that
HBase (and HDFS) are not covered by these patents, except for the mapreduce
integration package, which could be dropped without any loss of HBase
functionality for clients using the HBase client API. So the direct impact on
HBase for some worst-case scenario would be low as far as I can see.
- Andy
----- Original Message ----
> From: Laurence Hubert <La...@free.fr>
> To: hbase-dev@hadoop.apache.org
> Sent: Thu, January 21, 2010 7:33:29 PM
> Subject: Re: Google patent over Map Reduce - Hbase reflections
>
> Dear all,
>
> I think the impact of this patent should not be underestimated. If Hadoop/HBase
> is only an educational system and not used by anybody for any business then I
> agree there is no threat to the community...
> but if companies are relaying on it to do business (and some started to evaluate
> the use of Hadoop/HBase in commercial systems) then the companies businesses or
> products might be threatened. This means, unless something is done, companies
> cannot select Hadoop/HBase anymore for implementations because this is too much
> of a risk... which is in fact the biggest threat to hadoop... it was becoming
> popular and companies started to consider supporting it (providing development
> resources...) because this was a possible platform for their businesses...
>
> In my opinion a healthy attitude to this would be to analyse what was actually
> *really* protected and be creative on how hadoop could/should differentiate.
> Because if hadoop is just a 1:1 replica of the Google system, then there is no
> chance that it will attract more than the academic community and its nice
> success story is going to end here... I see enough intellectual power in the
> team to be able to take the Google patent and produce the next generation...
>
> My two cents,
> Laurence Hubert
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kay Kay"
> To:
> Sent: Thursday, January 21, 2010 3:28 AM
> Subject: Re: Google patent over Map Reduce - Hbase reflections
>
>
> > On 1/20/10 3:44 PM, stack wrote:
> >> I've been following the thread. I would tend to side with the general tenor
> >> that has it that its likely a just-in-case move by Google and that the
> >> likelihood of a Google suing Apache is not likely to happen in this
> >> dimension.
> >>
> >>
> > That was my general idea as well.
> >
> >> Are you (or your employer) spooked Kay Kay?
> >>
> >>
> > Not at all - but just started this to see what the opinions of the
> > community might be w.r.t. this.
> >
> >> St.Ack
> >>
> >>
> >> On Wed, Jan 20, 2010 at 3:34 PM, Kay Kay wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>> A big thread currently going on at the hadoop common user mailing list -
> >>>
> >>> http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/hadoop-common-user/201001.mbox/<
> >>> 2c36b701001200817g77f245b1x6ba9d7d2cfd9ec93@mail.gmail.com> .
> >>>
> >>> A good number of you might have already seen that thread, but just opening
> >>> up a thread for discussion to see what the thoughts of the community are ,
> >>> w.r.t. patent and how much (if at all) of the application would be related
> >>> to that / any refactorings as necessary as seen by the team or thoughts in
> >>> general to the same.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >
> >
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
> Ce message entrant est certifié sans virus connu.
> Analyse effectuée par AVG - www.avg.fr
> Version: 9.0.730 / Base de données virale: 271.1.1/2635 - Date: 01/20/10
> 20:18:00
Re: Google patent over Map Reduce - Hbase reflections
Posted by Bruce Williams <wi...@gmail.com>.
Like I said earlier, the fact that "Linux" patents are held by IBM and
Sun makes people more secure, not less, in using Linux. Real facts,
from the real world.
People worry about patent trolls and shell companies like SCO, not the
PR nightmare someone like Google would get if they went out and tried
to bully a popular Open Source project. Making Hadoop popular and
loved is the best defence.
Bruce
On Thu, Jan 21, 2010 at 4:17 AM, Laurence Hubert
<La...@free.fr> wrote:
> Then that's may be a possible path to go... identify all prior art (what
> Google cannot indeed claim) and make it public on the Hadoop/HBase pages so
> that companies can feel confident taking the Hadoop/HBase root... Basically
> *publicly* invalidate this patent with all reasonable arguments :-)
> Typically if the system design is "what a person skilled in the art" would
> have produced, this is NOT an invention...
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bruce Williams"
> <wi...@gmail.com>
> To: <hb...@hadoop.apache.org>
> Sent: Thursday, January 21, 2010 12:53 PM
> Subject: Re: Google patent over Map Reduce - Hbase reflections
>
>
> The fact is Hadoop was modeled after the particular system design
> Google developed from the start. So it is what it is. I don't think
> you can "differentiate" that situation away.
>
> Can Google patent MapReduce, which is basic CS and part of Lisp from
> the 60's? That is what is interesting about this.
>
> Bruce
>
> On Thu, Jan 21, 2010 at 3:33 AM, Laurence Hubert
> <La...@free.fr> wrote:
>>
>> Dear all,
>>
>> I think the impact of this patent should not be underestimated. If
>> Hadoop/HBase is only an educational system and not used by anybody for any
>> business then I agree there is no threat to the community...
>> but if companies are relaying on it to do business (and some started to
>> evaluate the use of Hadoop/HBase in commercial systems) then the companies
>> businesses or products might be threatened. This means, unless something
>> is
>> done, companies cannot select Hadoop/HBase anymore for implementations
>> because this is too much of a risk... which is in fact the biggest threat
>> to
>> hadoop... it was becoming popular and companies started to consider
>> supporting it (providing development resources...) because this was a
>> possible platform for their businesses...
>>
>> In my opinion a healthy attitude to this would be to analyse what was
>> actually *really* protected and be creative on how hadoop could/should
>> differentiate. Because if hadoop is just a 1:1 replica of the Google
>> system,
>> then there is no chance that it will attract more than the academic
>> community and its nice success story is going to end here... I see enough
>> intellectual power in the team to be able to take the Google patent and
>> produce the next generation...
>>
>> My two cents,
>> Laurence Hubert
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kay Kay" <ka...@gmail.com>
>> To: <hb...@hadoop.apache.org>
>> Sent: Thursday, January 21, 2010 3:28 AM
>> Subject: Re: Google patent over Map Reduce - Hbase reflections
>>
>>
>>> On 1/20/10 3:44 PM, stack wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I've been following the thread. I would tend to side with the general
>>>> tenor
>>>> that has it that its likely a just-in-case move by Google and that the
>>>> likelihood of a Google suing Apache is not likely to happen in this
>>>> dimension.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> That was my general idea as well.
>>>
>>>> Are you (or your employer) spooked Kay Kay?
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Not at all - but just started this to see what the opinions of the
>>> community might be w.r.t. this.
>>>
>>>> St.Ack
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Jan 20, 2010 at 3:34 PM, Kay Kay<ka...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> A big thread currently going on at the hadoop common user mailing list
>>>>> -
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/hadoop-common-user/201001.mbox/<
>>>>> 2c36b701001200817g77f245b1x6ba9d7d2cfd9ec93@mail.gmail.com> .
>>>>>
>>>>> A good number of you might have already seen that thread, but just
>>>>> opening
>>>>> up a thread for discussion to see what the thoughts of the community
>>>>> are
>>>>> ,
>>>>> w.r.t. patent and how much (if at all) of the application would be
>>>>> related
>>>>> to that / any refactorings as necessary as seen by the team or thoughts
>>>>> in
>>>>> general to the same.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>>
>> Ce message entrant est certifié sans virus connu.
>> Analyse effectuée par AVG - www.avg.fr
>> Version: 9.0.730 / Base de données virale: 271.1.1/2635 - Date: 01/20/10
>> 20:18:00
>>
>>
>
>
>
> --
>
> “Discovering...discovering...we will never cease discovering...
> and the end of all our discovering will be
> to return to the place where we began
> and to know it for the first time.”
> -T.S. Eliot
>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
> Ce message entrant est certifié sans virus connu.
> Analyse effectuée par AVG - www.avg.fr
> Version: 9.0.730 / Base de données virale: 271.1.1/2635 - Date: 01/20/10
> 20:18:00
>
>
--
“Discovering...discovering...we will never cease discovering...
and the end of all our discovering will be
to return to the place where we began
and to know it for the first time.”
-T.S. Eliot
Re: Google patent over Map Reduce - Hbase reflections
Posted by Laurence Hubert <La...@free.fr>.
Then that's may be a possible path to go... identify all prior art (what
Google cannot indeed claim) and make it public on the Hadoop/HBase pages so
that companies can feel confident taking the Hadoop/HBase root... Basically
*publicly* invalidate this patent with all reasonable arguments :-)
Typically if the system design is "what a person skilled in the art" would
have produced, this is NOT an invention...
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bruce Williams" <wi...@gmail.com>
To: <hb...@hadoop.apache.org>
Sent: Thursday, January 21, 2010 12:53 PM
Subject: Re: Google patent over Map Reduce - Hbase reflections
The fact is Hadoop was modeled after the particular system design
Google developed from the start. So it is what it is. I don't think
you can "differentiate" that situation away.
Can Google patent MapReduce, which is basic CS and part of Lisp from
the 60's? That is what is interesting about this.
Bruce
On Thu, Jan 21, 2010 at 3:33 AM, Laurence Hubert
<La...@free.fr> wrote:
> Dear all,
>
> I think the impact of this patent should not be underestimated. If
> Hadoop/HBase is only an educational system and not used by anybody for any
> business then I agree there is no threat to the community...
> but if companies are relaying on it to do business (and some started to
> evaluate the use of Hadoop/HBase in commercial systems) then the companies
> businesses or products might be threatened. This means, unless something
> is
> done, companies cannot select Hadoop/HBase anymore for implementations
> because this is too much of a risk... which is in fact the biggest threat
> to
> hadoop... it was becoming popular and companies started to consider
> supporting it (providing development resources...) because this was a
> possible platform for their businesses...
>
> In my opinion a healthy attitude to this would be to analyse what was
> actually *really* protected and be creative on how hadoop could/should
> differentiate. Because if hadoop is just a 1:1 replica of the Google
> system,
> then there is no chance that it will attract more than the academic
> community and its nice success story is going to end here... I see enough
> intellectual power in the team to be able to take the Google patent and
> produce the next generation...
>
> My two cents,
> Laurence Hubert
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kay Kay" <ka...@gmail.com>
> To: <hb...@hadoop.apache.org>
> Sent: Thursday, January 21, 2010 3:28 AM
> Subject: Re: Google patent over Map Reduce - Hbase reflections
>
>
>> On 1/20/10 3:44 PM, stack wrote:
>>>
>>> I've been following the thread. I would tend to side with the general
>>> tenor
>>> that has it that its likely a just-in-case move by Google and that the
>>> likelihood of a Google suing Apache is not likely to happen in this
>>> dimension.
>>>
>>>
>> That was my general idea as well.
>>
>>> Are you (or your employer) spooked Kay Kay?
>>>
>>>
>> Not at all - but just started this to see what the opinions of the
>> community might be w.r.t. this.
>>
>>> St.Ack
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Jan 20, 2010 at 3:34 PM, Kay Kay<ka...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> A big thread currently going on at the hadoop common user mailing
>>>> list -
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/hadoop-common-user/201001.mbox/<
>>>> 2c36b701001200817g77f245b1x6ba9d7d2cfd9ec93@mail.gmail.com> .
>>>>
>>>> A good number of you might have already seen that thread, but just
>>>> opening
>>>> up a thread for discussion to see what the thoughts of the community
>>>> are
>>>> ,
>>>> w.r.t. patent and how much (if at all) of the application would be
>>>> related
>>>> to that / any refactorings as necessary as seen by the team or thoughts
>>>> in
>>>> general to the same.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
> Ce message entrant est certifié sans virus connu.
> Analyse effectuée par AVG - www.avg.fr
> Version: 9.0.730 / Base de données virale: 271.1.1/2635 - Date: 01/20/10
> 20:18:00
>
>
--
“Discovering...discovering...we will never cease discovering...
and the end of all our discovering will be
to return to the place where we began
and to know it for the first time.”
-T.S. Eliot
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Analyse effectuée par AVG - www.avg.fr
Version: 9.0.730 / Base de données virale: 271.1.1/2635 - Date: 01/20/10
20:18:00
Re: Google patent over Map Reduce - Hbase reflections
Posted by Bruce Williams <wi...@gmail.com>.
The fact is Hadoop was modeled after the particular system design
Google developed from the start. So it is what it is. I don't think
you can "differentiate" that situation away.
Can Google patent MapReduce, which is basic CS and part of Lisp from
the 60's? That is what is interesting about this.
Bruce
On Thu, Jan 21, 2010 at 3:33 AM, Laurence Hubert
<La...@free.fr> wrote:
> Dear all,
>
> I think the impact of this patent should not be underestimated. If
> Hadoop/HBase is only an educational system and not used by anybody for any
> business then I agree there is no threat to the community...
> but if companies are relaying on it to do business (and some started to
> evaluate the use of Hadoop/HBase in commercial systems) then the companies
> businesses or products might be threatened. This means, unless something is
> done, companies cannot select Hadoop/HBase anymore for implementations
> because this is too much of a risk... which is in fact the biggest threat to
> hadoop... it was becoming popular and companies started to consider
> supporting it (providing development resources...) because this was a
> possible platform for their businesses...
>
> In my opinion a healthy attitude to this would be to analyse what was
> actually *really* protected and be creative on how hadoop could/should
> differentiate. Because if hadoop is just a 1:1 replica of the Google system,
> then there is no chance that it will attract more than the academic
> community and its nice success story is going to end here... I see enough
> intellectual power in the team to be able to take the Google patent and
> produce the next generation...
>
> My two cents,
> Laurence Hubert
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kay Kay" <ka...@gmail.com>
> To: <hb...@hadoop.apache.org>
> Sent: Thursday, January 21, 2010 3:28 AM
> Subject: Re: Google patent over Map Reduce - Hbase reflections
>
>
>> On 1/20/10 3:44 PM, stack wrote:
>>>
>>> I've been following the thread. I would tend to side with the general
>>> tenor
>>> that has it that its likely a just-in-case move by Google and that the
>>> likelihood of a Google suing Apache is not likely to happen in this
>>> dimension.
>>>
>>>
>> That was my general idea as well.
>>
>>> Are you (or your employer) spooked Kay Kay?
>>>
>>>
>> Not at all - but just started this to see what the opinions of the
>> community might be w.r.t. this.
>>
>>> St.Ack
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Jan 20, 2010 at 3:34 PM, Kay Kay<ka...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> A big thread currently going on at the hadoop common user mailing list -
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/hadoop-common-user/201001.mbox/<
>>>> 2c36b701001200817g77f245b1x6ba9d7d2cfd9ec93@mail.gmail.com> .
>>>>
>>>> A good number of you might have already seen that thread, but just
>>>> opening
>>>> up a thread for discussion to see what the thoughts of the community are
>>>> ,
>>>> w.r.t. patent and how much (if at all) of the application would be
>>>> related
>>>> to that / any refactorings as necessary as seen by the team or thoughts
>>>> in
>>>> general to the same.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
> Ce message entrant est certifié sans virus connu.
> Analyse effectuée par AVG - www.avg.fr
> Version: 9.0.730 / Base de données virale: 271.1.1/2635 - Date: 01/20/10
> 20:18:00
>
>
--
“Discovering...discovering...we will never cease discovering...
and the end of all our discovering will be
to return to the place where we began
and to know it for the first time.”
-T.S. Eliot
Re: Google patent over Map Reduce - Hbase reflections
Posted by Laurence Hubert <La...@free.fr>.
Dear all,
I think the impact of this patent should not be underestimated. If
Hadoop/HBase is only an educational system and not used by anybody for any
business then I agree there is no threat to the community...
but if companies are relaying on it to do business (and some started to
evaluate the use of Hadoop/HBase in commercial systems) then the companies
businesses or products might be threatened. This means, unless something is
done, companies cannot select Hadoop/HBase anymore for implementations
because this is too much of a risk... which is in fact the biggest threat to
hadoop... it was becoming popular and companies started to consider
supporting it (providing development resources...) because this was a
possible platform for their businesses...
In my opinion a healthy attitude to this would be to analyse what was
actually *really* protected and be creative on how hadoop could/should
differentiate. Because if hadoop is just a 1:1 replica of the Google system,
then there is no chance that it will attract more than the academic
community and its nice success story is going to end here... I see enough
intellectual power in the team to be able to take the Google patent and
produce the next generation...
My two cents,
Laurence Hubert
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kay Kay" <ka...@gmail.com>
To: <hb...@hadoop.apache.org>
Sent: Thursday, January 21, 2010 3:28 AM
Subject: Re: Google patent over Map Reduce - Hbase reflections
> On 1/20/10 3:44 PM, stack wrote:
>> I've been following the thread. I would tend to side with the general
>> tenor
>> that has it that its likely a just-in-case move by Google and that the
>> likelihood of a Google suing Apache is not likely to happen in this
>> dimension.
>>
>>
> That was my general idea as well.
>
>> Are you (or your employer) spooked Kay Kay?
>>
>>
> Not at all - but just started this to see what the opinions of the
> community might be w.r.t. this.
>
>> St.Ack
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Jan 20, 2010 at 3:34 PM, Kay Kay<ka...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> A big thread currently going on at the hadoop common user mailing list -
>>>
>>> http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/hadoop-common-user/201001.mbox/<
>>> 2c36b701001200817g77f245b1x6ba9d7d2cfd9ec93@mail.gmail.com> .
>>>
>>> A good number of you might have already seen that thread, but just
>>> opening
>>> up a thread for discussion to see what the thoughts of the community are
>>> ,
>>> w.r.t. patent and how much (if at all) of the application would be
>>> related
>>> to that / any refactorings as necessary as seen by the team or thoughts
>>> in
>>> general to the same.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ce message entrant est certifié sans virus connu.
Analyse effectuée par AVG - www.avg.fr
Version: 9.0.730 / Base de données virale: 271.1.1/2635 - Date: 01/20/10
20:18:00
Re: Google patent over Map Reduce - Hbase reflections
Posted by Bruce Williams <wi...@gmail.com>.
Yeah, that was the program they wanted me to support. It started at U
Wash and grew from there, to Stanford, then Berkley and took off.
Bruce
On Wed, Jan 20, 2010 at 11:16 PM, Mathias Herberts
<ma...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Google itself is using Hadoop in its University program, see
> http://code.google.com/edu/parallel/mapreduce-tutorial.html, and
> encouraging universities such as Berkeley to expose students to MR in
> their CS curriculum.
>
> It even has a biblio entry of 'Open Source MapReduce:
> http://lucene.apache.org/hadoop/'.
>
> Given the hard time Google has recruiting people with skills that
> match their infrastructure, sueing around Hadoop would be a very
> unclever move as no one would then be able to train him/herself on
> those types of technologies.
>
> Let's face it, infrastructure and use of technologies such as MR give
> Google a headstart, not MR per se.
>
> Just my 2ct worth.
>
> Mathias.
>
--
“Discovering...discovering...we will never cease discovering...
and the end of all our discovering will be
to return to the place where we began
and to know it for the first time.”
-T.S. Eliot
Re: Google patent over Map Reduce - Hbase reflections
Posted by Mathias Herberts <ma...@gmail.com>.
Google itself is using Hadoop in its University program, see
http://code.google.com/edu/parallel/mapreduce-tutorial.html, and
encouraging universities such as Berkeley to expose students to MR in
their CS curriculum.
It even has a biblio entry of 'Open Source MapReduce:
http://lucene.apache.org/hadoop/'.
Given the hard time Google has recruiting people with skills that
match their infrastructure, sueing around Hadoop would be a very
unclever move as no one would then be able to train him/herself on
those types of technologies.
Let's face it, infrastructure and use of technologies such as MR give
Google a headstart, not MR per se.
Just my 2ct worth.
Mathias.
Re: Google patent over Map Reduce - Hbase reflections
Posted by Bruce Williams <wi...@gmail.com>.
Several corporations have patents they have said will be used to
protect Linux, IBM and Sun come to mind. I don't know if this should
be considered a threat right away. I know Google asked me, as a non
employee, to maintain and update thier hadoop educational download to
avoid patent issues of having their own employees to see or touch the
code.
Bruce
On Wed, Jan 20, 2010 at 6:28 PM, Kay Kay <ka...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 1/20/10 3:44 PM, stack wrote:
>>
>> I've been following the thread. I would tend to side with the general
>> tenor
>> that has it that its likely a just-in-case move by Google and that the
>> likelihood of a Google suing Apache is not likely to happen in this
>> dimension.
>>
>>
>
> That was my general idea as well.
>
>> Are you (or your employer) spooked Kay Kay?
>>
>>
>
> Not at all - but just started this to see what the opinions of the community
> might be w.r.t. this.
>
>> St.Ack
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Jan 20, 2010 at 3:34 PM, Kay Kay<ka...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>
>>> A big thread currently going on at the hadoop common user mailing list -
>>>
>>> http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/hadoop-common-user/201001.mbox/<
>>> 2c36b701001200817g77f245b1x6ba9d7d2cfd9ec93@mail.gmail.com> .
>>>
>>> A good number of you might have already seen that thread, but just
>>> opening
>>> up a thread for discussion to see what the thoughts of the community are
>>> ,
>>> w.r.t. patent and how much (if at all) of the application would be
>>> related
>>> to that / any refactorings as necessary as seen by the team or thoughts
>>> in
>>> general to the same.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
--
“Discovering...discovering...we will never cease discovering...
and the end of all our discovering will be
to return to the place where we began
and to know it for the first time.”
-T.S. Eliot
Re: Google patent over Map Reduce - Hbase reflections
Posted by Kay Kay <ka...@gmail.com>.
On 1/20/10 3:44 PM, stack wrote:
> I've been following the thread. I would tend to side with the general tenor
> that has it that its likely a just-in-case move by Google and that the
> likelihood of a Google suing Apache is not likely to happen in this
> dimension.
>
>
That was my general idea as well.
> Are you (or your employer) spooked Kay Kay?
>
>
Not at all - but just started this to see what the opinions of the
community might be w.r.t. this.
> St.Ack
>
>
> On Wed, Jan 20, 2010 at 3:34 PM, Kay Kay<ka...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>> A big thread currently going on at the hadoop common user mailing list -
>>
>> http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/hadoop-common-user/201001.mbox/<
>> 2c36b701001200817g77f245b1x6ba9d7d2cfd9ec93@mail.gmail.com> .
>>
>> A good number of you might have already seen that thread, but just opening
>> up a thread for discussion to see what the thoughts of the community are ,
>> w.r.t. patent and how much (if at all) of the application would be related
>> to that / any refactorings as necessary as seen by the team or thoughts in
>> general to the same.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
Re: Google patent over Map Reduce - Hbase reflections
Posted by stack <st...@duboce.net>.
I've been following the thread. I would tend to side with the general tenor
that has it that its likely a just-in-case move by Google and that the
likelihood of a Google suing Apache is not likely to happen in this
dimension.
Are you (or your employer) spooked Kay Kay?
St.Ack
On Wed, Jan 20, 2010 at 3:34 PM, Kay Kay <ka...@gmail.com> wrote:
> A big thread currently going on at the hadoop common user mailing list -
>
> http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/hadoop-common-user/201001.mbox/<
> 2c36b701001200817g77f245b1x6ba9d7d2cfd9ec93@mail.gmail.com> .
>
> A good number of you might have already seen that thread, but just opening
> up a thread for discussion to see what the thoughts of the community are ,
> w.r.t. patent and how much (if at all) of the application would be related
> to that / any refactorings as necessary as seen by the team or thoughts in
> general to the same.
>
>
>