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Posted to dev@openoffice.apache.org by Joe Schaefer <jo...@yahoo.com> on 2012/07/17 20:04:17 UTC
On parks, commons, and websites
Since I'm still not satisfied that people have understood
the point I've tried to make about the CMS and website management,
let me couch it in a more familiar analogy so you can better
understand where I'm coming from and why I do what I do.
Imagine your website as if it were a giant park that various
citizens of the planet come to observe, visit and participate
in. What would you do if by chance you were a park visitor
and noticed that some other citizen had left behind a little
bit of trash in the park?
A lot of average citizens would say to themselves "Hey, I'm just
a visitor here, it's not my problem" and go on with their
activities ignoring the trash.
A more concerned citizen might say to themselves, "hey, someone
should do something about that trash. Lemme go ask the park ranger
to clean it up." Eventually the park ranger might do something
about it, but a more enlightened ranger might say to the camper
"I've gone ahead and put out trash receptacles in lots of convenient
locations. Is it possible for you to take care of this yourself?
I'm quite busy tending to other areas of the park, including other parks.
Thanks. I'll put up more signs explaining to visitors the importance
of cleaning up after themselves."
Some citizens might react badly to the park ranger's response, and
go away pissed off and ignoring the trash. They might then complain
to other citizens that the park is being badly managed and should get
more help.
Other citizens might see the trash but instead of tackling the problem
themselves, ask another park visitor to clean it up. Not a bad thing
to do, but a little bit imposing on the other visitors of the park.
Those people might wonder about why the original citizen did not clean
up the trash themselves, but occasionally you come across citizens
who are happy to just honor the unusual request without issue.
Other citizens, those acting with enlightened self-interest, will
react differently to the park ranger's advice. They realize the trash
problem is a social problem for citizens to solve, not something a park
ranger is equipped to deal with. They will work alongside the park
ranger to post advertisements about civic responsibility, conduct community
awareness meetings to teach others about how to deal with trash, etc.
And most importantly, they will pick up whatever trash they are made
aware of without fuss. Citizens like this are often recognized by the park
itself as friends, stewards, and volunteers of the park, and given membership
in the entire park system's oversight and governance.
Re: On parks, commons, and websites
Posted by Joe Schaefer <jo...@yahoo.com>.
Well not quite. I view the paid infra staff
as the people who "manage the park". Ie the
hardware and software that provides it, not
the community of visitors who exercise the
physical resources to create intellectual
assets (ie the commons).
HTH
>________________________________
> From: Donald Whytock <dw...@gmail.com>
>To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org; Joe Schaefer <jo...@yahoo.com>
>Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2012 3:29 PM
>Subject: Re: On parks, commons, and websites
>
>I like the spirit of your analogy. The overall message is that, if
>something needs doing, and you see it needs doing, you doing it is the
>way to see it gets done fastest, and that if you recognize the need,
>then its getting done is something that benefits you, among others.
>
>There's an important difference, though. There are no rangers in this
>park. No one's employed by the park to get something done. Maybe
>someone's employed by one of the office buildings next to the park
>because they want nice scenery. But the park itself has no employees.
>So if no one does something, it simply doesn't get done.
>
>Perhaps a better analogy is a remote sparse community in mountain or
>wilderness areas, where there isn't much in the way of government
>oversight and public works. If you need a bridge over a chasm, you
>build it or there's no bridge. If livestock need a well, you dig it
>or there's no water. Anyone who stands around waiting for something
>to get done is likely to get (a) very hungry, (b) laughed at or (c)
>shot by someone who's struggling to do it for himself.
>
>This community is probably somewhere between the two.
>
>
>
Re: On parks, commons, and websites
Posted by Donald Whytock <dw...@gmail.com>.
I like the spirit of your analogy. The overall message is that, if
something needs doing, and you see it needs doing, you doing it is the
way to see it gets done fastest, and that if you recognize the need,
then its getting done is something that benefits you, among others.
There's an important difference, though. There are no rangers in this
park. No one's employed by the park to get something done. Maybe
someone's employed by one of the office buildings next to the park
because they want nice scenery. But the park itself has no employees.
So if no one does something, it simply doesn't get done.
Perhaps a better analogy is a remote sparse community in mountain or
wilderness areas, where there isn't much in the way of government
oversight and public works. If you need a bridge over a chasm, you
build it or there's no bridge. If livestock need a well, you dig it
or there's no water. Anyone who stands around waiting for something
to get done is likely to get (a) very hungry, (b) laughed at or (c)
shot by someone who's struggling to do it for himself.
This community is probably somewhere between the two.
Re: On parks, commons, and websites... and fun (or lack of)
Posted by Joe Schaefer <jo...@yahoo.com>.
----- Original Message -----
> From: Dave Fisher <da...@comcast.net>
> To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
> Cc: "dennis.hamilton@acm.org" <de...@acm.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2012 8:08 PM
> Subject: Re: On parks, commons, and websites... and fun (or lack of)
>
> I think that it is a good moment to remind the community that the PPMC considers
> a contributor's merit in the project before electing the individual into the
> Committer and/or PPMC role. One of the jobs of PPMC members is to identify
> contributors who are good candidates based on the merit of their contributions.
> These can be anywhere in the project that is visible to the PPMC and that
> includes the User Forums.
The thing is, there's no organizational requirement that (P)PMC members
be offered committership as well- it just normally works out that way.
>
> Regards,
> Dave
>
> On Jul 17, 2012, at 4:37 PM, Joe Schaefer wrote:
>
>> Exactly so Dennis, and here is the community documentation which spells
>> out how a committer can "more easily make changes without having to go
>> through the patch submission process" for the website:
>>
>> http://incubator.apache.org/openofficeorg/website-local.html
>>
>>
>> "...Making updates to the Apache OpenOffice project's websites is
> simple.
>> It's even easy
>> for non-committers (new contributors - like you) to create
>> a patch to request that
>> pages are updated by the project community...."
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: Dennis E. Hamilton <de...@acm.org>
>>> To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org; 'Joe Schaefer'
> <jo...@yahoo.com>
>>> Cc:
>>> Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2012 7:17 PM
>>> Subject: RE: On parks, commons, and websites... and fun (or lack of)
>>>
>>> T he following text is boilerplate on the model that is sent to all who
> are
>>> invited to be committers on AOOi. It is derived from a model document
> that is
>>> to be found on the Apache site:
>>>
>>> Hello <invitee>,
>>>
>>> The Apache OpenOffice Podling Project Management Committee (PPMC)
>>> hereby offers you committer rights to the project ... .
>>>
>>> Being a committer enables you to more easily make changes without
>>> needing to go through the patch submission process. This applies
>>> not only to the code base but other project areas, such as the
>>> web sites. ...
>>>
>>> Being a committer does not require you to participate any more
>>> than you already do. It does tend to make one even more
> committed.
>>> You will probably find that you spend more time here.
>>>
>>> That same text was in the invitation that Hagar received from the PPMC
> on
>>> 2012-03-04.
>>>
>>> This is my sole contribution to this thread. I am disappointed that
> Hagar left
>>> the PPMC.
>>>
>>> - Dennis
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Joe Schaefer [mailto:joe_schaefer@yahoo.com]
>>> Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2012 14:42
>>> To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
>>> Subject: Re: On parks, commons, and websites... and fun (or lack of)
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>
>>>> From: Rory O'Farrell <of...@iol.ie>
>>>> To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
>>>> Cc:
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2012 5:29 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: On parks, commons, and websites... and fun (or lack
> of)
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, 17 Jul 2012 14:20:02 -0700 (PDT)
>>>> Joe Schaefer <jo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> If Hagar has a debilitating illness that prevents him from
>>>>> acquiring the requisite skills, let me apologize for asking
>>>>> him to try to do something a normal person on this mailing
>>>>> list can accomplish for themselves.
>>>>>
>>>>> That's the best you're going to get Larry.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> > From: Larry Gusaas <la...@gmail.com>
>>>>> > To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
>>>>> > Cc:
>>>>> > Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2012 5:14 PM
>>>>> > Subject: Re: On parks, commons, and websites... and fun
> (or lack
>>> of)
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> > On 2012-07-17 3:04 PM Rob Weir wrote:
>>>>> >> Please, everyone. Let's not pile on this
> thread with
>>> more
>>>> name
>>>>> >> calling, etc., in the heat of the moment.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> Let's set it aside and see tomorrow if there is
> anything
>>> more
>>>> that
>>>>> >> should be said. We accomplish nothing with
> rapid-fire,
>>> emotional
>>>>> >> responses.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > I will quit responding when Hagar gets the apology he
> deserves.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > --
>>>>> > _________________________________
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Larry I. Gusaas
>>>>> > Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan Canada
>>>>> > Website: http://larry-gusaas.com
>>>>> > "An artist is never ahead of his time but most
> people are
>>> far
>>>> behind
>>>>> > theirs." - Edgard Varese
>>>>> >
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I suggest the other Mentors should _urgently review_ this thread
> and
>>> consider
>>>> what behaviour is expected from a mentor.
>>>>
>>>> It is unfair to require a volunteer to change his level of
> committment, or
>>> to
>>>
>>> Relax- nobody is *requiring* anything of anyone. This is about
> expected and
>>> model behavior. For reasons that escape me at this point, Hagar was
> made a
>>> committer on this project, and that comes with certain expectations.
>>> Additionally
>>> there are expectations on how *anyone* subscribed to this mailing list
> SHOULD
>>> apply
>>> community documentation as it pertains to website maintenance. That is
> of no
>>> surprise
>>> to anyone either.
>>>
>>>> suggest that he might need (I quote) "a debilitating illness
> that
>>> prevents
>>>> him from acquiring the requisite skills." If he has not the
> time or
>>> the
>>>> inclination to extend his role, that is sufficient.
>>>
>>> It was, at the end of the day, a *challenge* to either accept or pass
> on.
>>> Expect
>>> there to be more of them when others approach this mailing list with
> bug reports
>>> about web pages, because we want people to use the tools provided by
> the org to
>>> fix those bugs themselves. Will everyone comply? Of course not. This
> is just
>>> the first example of that- pity it's coming from a committer.
>>>
>
Re: On parks, commons, and websites... and fun (or lack of)
Posted by Dave Fisher <da...@comcast.net>.
I think that it is a good moment to remind the community that the PPMC considers a contributor's merit in the project before electing the individual into the Committer and/or PPMC role. One of the jobs of PPMC members is to identify contributors who are good candidates based on the merit of their contributions. These can be anywhere in the project that is visible to the PPMC and that includes the User Forums.
Regards,
Dave
On Jul 17, 2012, at 4:37 PM, Joe Schaefer wrote:
> Exactly so Dennis, and here is the community documentation which spells
> out how a committer can "more easily make changes without having to go
> through the patch submission process" for the website:
>
> http://incubator.apache.org/openofficeorg/website-local.html
>
>
> "...Making updates to the Apache OpenOffice project's websites is simple.
> It's even easy
> for non-committers (new contributors - like you) to create
> a patch to request that
> pages are updated by the project community...."
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Dennis E. Hamilton <de...@acm.org>
>> To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org; 'Joe Schaefer' <jo...@yahoo.com>
>> Cc:
>> Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2012 7:17 PM
>> Subject: RE: On parks, commons, and websites... and fun (or lack of)
>>
>> T he following text is boilerplate on the model that is sent to all who are
>> invited to be committers on AOOi. It is derived from a model document that is
>> to be found on the Apache site:
>>
>> Hello <invitee>,
>>
>> The Apache OpenOffice Podling Project Management Committee (PPMC)
>> hereby offers you committer rights to the project ... .
>>
>> Being a committer enables you to more easily make changes without
>> needing to go through the patch submission process. This applies
>> not only to the code base but other project areas, such as the
>> web sites. ...
>>
>> Being a committer does not require you to participate any more
>> than you already do. It does tend to make one even more committed.
>> You will probably find that you spend more time here.
>>
>> That same text was in the invitation that Hagar received from the PPMC on
>> 2012-03-04.
>>
>> This is my sole contribution to this thread. I am disappointed that Hagar left
>> the PPMC.
>>
>> - Dennis
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Joe Schaefer [mailto:joe_schaefer@yahoo.com]
>> Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2012 14:42
>> To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
>> Subject: Re: On parks, commons, and websites... and fun (or lack of)
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>>
>>> From: Rory O'Farrell <of...@iol.ie>
>>> To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
>>> Cc:
>>> Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2012 5:29 PM
>>> Subject: Re: On parks, commons, and websites... and fun (or lack of)
>>>
>>> On Tue, 17 Jul 2012 14:20:02 -0700 (PDT)
>>> Joe Schaefer <jo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> If Hagar has a debilitating illness that prevents him from
>>>> acquiring the requisite skills, let me apologize for asking
>>>> him to try to do something a normal person on this mailing
>>>> list can accomplish for themselves.
>>>>
>>>> That's the best you're going to get Larry.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> > From: Larry Gusaas <la...@gmail.com>
>>>> > To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
>>>> > Cc:
>>>> > Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2012 5:14 PM
>>>> > Subject: Re: On parks, commons, and websites... and fun (or lack
>> of)
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > On 2012-07-17 3:04 PM Rob Weir wrote:
>>>> >> Please, everyone. Let's not pile on this thread with
>> more
>>> name
>>>> >> calling, etc., in the heat of the moment.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Let's set it aside and see tomorrow if there is anything
>> more
>>> that
>>>> >> should be said. We accomplish nothing with rapid-fire,
>> emotional
>>>> >> responses.
>>>> >
>>>> > I will quit responding when Hagar gets the apology he deserves.
>>>> >
>>>> > --
>>>> > _________________________________
>>>> >
>>>> > Larry I. Gusaas
>>>> > Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan Canada
>>>> > Website: http://larry-gusaas.com
>>>> > "An artist is never ahead of his time but most people are
>> far
>>> behind
>>>> > theirs." - Edgard Varese
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>
>>> I suggest the other Mentors should _urgently review_ this thread and
>> consider
>>> what behaviour is expected from a mentor.
>>>
>>> It is unfair to require a volunteer to change his level of committment, or
>> to
>>
>> Relax- nobody is *requiring* anything of anyone. This is about expected and
>> model behavior. For reasons that escape me at this point, Hagar was made a
>> committer on this project, and that comes with certain expectations.
>> Additionally
>> there are expectations on how *anyone* subscribed to this mailing list SHOULD
>> apply
>> community documentation as it pertains to website maintenance. That is of no
>> surprise
>> to anyone either.
>>
>>> suggest that he might need (I quote) "a debilitating illness that
>> prevents
>>> him from acquiring the requisite skills." If he has not the time or
>> the
>>> inclination to extend his role, that is sufficient.
>>
>> It was, at the end of the day, a *challenge* to either accept or pass on.
>> Expect
>> there to be more of them when others approach this mailing list with bug reports
>> about web pages, because we want people to use the tools provided by the org to
>> fix those bugs themselves. Will everyone comply? Of course not. This is just
>> the first example of that- pity it's coming from a committer.
>>
Re: On parks, commons, and websites... and fun (or lack of)
Posted by Joe Schaefer <jo...@yahoo.com>.
Exactly so Dennis, and here is the community documentation which spells
out how a committer can "more easily make changes without having to go
through the patch submission process" for the website:
http://incubator.apache.org/openofficeorg/website-local.html
"...Making updates to the Apache OpenOffice project's websites is simple.
It's even easy
for non-committers (new contributors - like you) to create
a patch to request that
pages are updated by the project community...."
----- Original Message -----
> From: Dennis E. Hamilton <de...@acm.org>
> To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org; 'Joe Schaefer' <jo...@yahoo.com>
> Cc:
> Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2012 7:17 PM
> Subject: RE: On parks, commons, and websites... and fun (or lack of)
>
>T he following text is boilerplate on the model that is sent to all who are
> invited to be committers on AOOi. It is derived from a model document that is
> to be found on the Apache site:
>
> Hello <invitee>,
>
> The Apache OpenOffice Podling Project Management Committee (PPMC)
> hereby offers you committer rights to the project ... .
>
> Being a committer enables you to more easily make changes without
> needing to go through the patch submission process. This applies
> not only to the code base but other project areas, such as the
> web sites. ...
>
> Being a committer does not require you to participate any more
> than you already do. It does tend to make one even more committed.
> You will probably find that you spend more time here.
>
> That same text was in the invitation that Hagar received from the PPMC on
> 2012-03-04.
>
> This is my sole contribution to this thread. I am disappointed that Hagar left
> the PPMC.
>
> - Dennis
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Joe Schaefer [mailto:joe_schaefer@yahoo.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2012 14:42
> To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
> Subject: Re: On parks, commons, and websites... and fun (or lack of)
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
>> From: Rory O'Farrell <of...@iol.ie>
>> To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
>> Cc:
>> Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2012 5:29 PM
>> Subject: Re: On parks, commons, and websites... and fun (or lack of)
>>
>> On Tue, 17 Jul 2012 14:20:02 -0700 (PDT)
>> Joe Schaefer <jo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>> If Hagar has a debilitating illness that prevents him from
>>> acquiring the requisite skills, let me apologize for asking
>>> him to try to do something a normal person on this mailing
>>> list can accomplish for themselves.
>>>
>>> That's the best you're going to get Larry.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> > From: Larry Gusaas <la...@gmail.com>
>>> > To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
>>> > Cc:
>>> > Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2012 5:14 PM
>>> > Subject: Re: On parks, commons, and websites... and fun (or lack
> of)
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > On 2012-07-17 3:04 PM Rob Weir wrote:
>>> >> Please, everyone. Let's not pile on this thread with
> more
>> name
>>> >> calling, etc., in the heat of the moment.
>>> >>
>>> >> Let's set it aside and see tomorrow if there is anything
> more
>> that
>>> >> should be said. We accomplish nothing with rapid-fire,
> emotional
>>> >> responses.
>>> >
>>> > I will quit responding when Hagar gets the apology he deserves.
>>> >
>>> > --
>>> > _________________________________
>>> >
>>> > Larry I. Gusaas
>>> > Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan Canada
>>> > Website: http://larry-gusaas.com
>>> > "An artist is never ahead of his time but most people are
> far
>> behind
>>> > theirs." - Edgard Varese
>>> >
>>>
>>
>> I suggest the other Mentors should _urgently review_ this thread and
> consider
>> what behaviour is expected from a mentor.
>>
>> It is unfair to require a volunteer to change his level of committment, or
> to
>
> Relax- nobody is *requiring* anything of anyone. This is about expected and
> model behavior. For reasons that escape me at this point, Hagar was made a
> committer on this project, and that comes with certain expectations.
> Additionally
> there are expectations on how *anyone* subscribed to this mailing list SHOULD
> apply
> community documentation as it pertains to website maintenance. That is of no
> surprise
> to anyone either.
>
>> suggest that he might need (I quote) "a debilitating illness that
> prevents
>> him from acquiring the requisite skills." If he has not the time or
> the
>> inclination to extend his role, that is sufficient.
>
> It was, at the end of the day, a *challenge* to either accept or pass on.
> Expect
> there to be more of them when others approach this mailing list with bug reports
> about web pages, because we want people to use the tools provided by the org to
> fix those bugs themselves. Will everyone comply? Of course not. This is just
> the first example of that- pity it's coming from a committer.
>
Re: On parks, commons, and websites... and fun (or lack of)
Posted by Rory O'Farrell <of...@iol.ie>.
On Tue, 17 Jul 2012 16:17:28 -0700
"Dennis E. Hamilton" <de...@acm.org> wrote:
> The following text is boilerplate on the model that is sent to all who are invited to be committers on AOOi. It is derived from a model document that is to be found on the Apache site:
>
> Hello <invitee>,
>
> The Apache OpenOffice Podling Project Management Committee (PPMC)
> hereby offers you committer rights to the project ... .
>
> Being a committer enables you to more easily make changes without
> needing to go through the patch submission process. This applies
> not only to the code base but other project areas, such as the
> web sites. ...
>
> Being a committer does not require you to participate any more
> than you already do. It does tend to make one even more committed.
> You will probably find that you spend more time here.
>
> That same text was in the invitation that Hagar received from the PPMC on 2012-03-04.
>
> This is my sole contribution to this thread. I am disappointed that Hagar left the PPMC.
>
> - Dennis
>
> -----Original Message-----
> >From: Joe Schaefer [mailto:joe_schaefer@yahoo.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2012 14:42
> To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
> Subject: Re: On parks, commons, and websites... and fun (or lack of)
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> > From: Rory O'Farrell <of...@iol.ie>
> > To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
> > Cc:
> > Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2012 5:29 PM
> > Subject: Re: On parks, commons, and websites... and fun (or lack of)
> >
> > On Tue, 17 Jul 2012 14:20:02 -0700 (PDT)
> > Joe Schaefer <jo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> >> If Hagar has a debilitating illness that prevents him from
> >> acquiring the requisite skills, let me apologize for asking
> >> him to try to do something a normal person on this mailing
> >> list can accomplish for themselves.
> >>
> >> That's the best you're going to get Larry.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> > From: Larry Gusaas <la...@gmail.com>
> >> > To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
> >> > Cc:
> >> > Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2012 5:14 PM
> >> > Subject: Re: On parks, commons, and websites... and fun (or lack of)
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > On 2012-07-17 3:04 PM Rob Weir wrote:
> >> >> Please, everyone. Let's not pile on this thread with more
> > name
> >> >> calling, etc., in the heat of the moment.
> >> >>
> >> >> Let's set it aside and see tomorrow if there is anything more
> > that
> >> >> should be said. We accomplish nothing with rapid-fire, emotional
> >> >> responses.
> >> >
> >> > I will quit responding when Hagar gets the apology he deserves.
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> > _________________________________
> >> >
> >> > Larry I. Gusaas
> >> > Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan Canada
> >> > Website: http://larry-gusaas.com
> >> > "An artist is never ahead of his time but most people are far
> > behind
> >> > theirs." - Edgard Varese
> >> >
> >>
> >
> > I suggest the other Mentors should _urgently review_ this thread and consider
> > what behaviour is expected from a mentor.
> >
> > It is unfair to require a volunteer to change his level of committment, or to
>
> Relax- nobody is *requiring* anything of anyone. This is about expected and
> model behavior. For reasons that escape me at this point, Hagar was made a
> committer on this project, and that comes with certain expectations. Additionally
> there are expectations on how *anyone* subscribed to this mailing list SHOULD apply
> community documentation as it pertains to website maintenance. That is of no surprise
> to anyone either.
>
> > suggest that he might need (I quote) "a debilitating illness that prevents
> > him from acquiring the requisite skills." If he has not the time or the
> > inclination to extend his role, that is sufficient.
>
> It was, at the end of the day, a *challenge* to either accept or pass on. Expect
> there to be more of them when others approach this mailing list with bug reports
> about web pages, because we want people to use the tools provided by the org to
> fix those bugs themselves. Will everyone comply? Of course not. This is just
> the first example of that- pity it's coming from a committer.
>
>
Many of you do not realise that the boiler plate quoted is _permissive_ not _compulsory_. There is no obligation on any committer to advance his involvement with the project more than his circumstances enable him to offer. This argument arose because Hagar was unfairly and ungraciously told that he should do just that. The much vaunted "Apache Way" seems to be subject to very selective interpretation!
--
Rory O'Farrell <of...@iol.ie>
RE: On parks, commons, and websites... and fun (or lack of)
Posted by "Dennis E. Hamilton" <de...@acm.org>.
The following text is boilerplate on the model that is sent to all who are invited to be committers on AOOi. It is derived from a model document that is to be found on the Apache site:
Hello <invitee>,
The Apache OpenOffice Podling Project Management Committee (PPMC)
hereby offers you committer rights to the project ... .
Being a committer enables you to more easily make changes without
needing to go through the patch submission process. This applies
not only to the code base but other project areas, such as the
web sites. ...
Being a committer does not require you to participate any more
than you already do. It does tend to make one even more committed.
You will probably find that you spend more time here.
That same text was in the invitation that Hagar received from the PPMC on 2012-03-04.
This is my sole contribution to this thread. I am disappointed that Hagar left the PPMC.
- Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: Joe Schaefer [mailto:joe_schaefer@yahoo.com]
Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2012 14:42
To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
Subject: Re: On parks, commons, and websites... and fun (or lack of)
----- Original Message -----
> From: Rory O'Farrell <of...@iol.ie>
> To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
> Cc:
> Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2012 5:29 PM
> Subject: Re: On parks, commons, and websites... and fun (or lack of)
>
> On Tue, 17 Jul 2012 14:20:02 -0700 (PDT)
> Joe Schaefer <jo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> If Hagar has a debilitating illness that prevents him from
>> acquiring the requisite skills, let me apologize for asking
>> him to try to do something a normal person on this mailing
>> list can accomplish for themselves.
>>
>> That's the best you're going to get Larry.
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> > From: Larry Gusaas <la...@gmail.com>
>> > To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
>> > Cc:
>> > Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2012 5:14 PM
>> > Subject: Re: On parks, commons, and websites... and fun (or lack of)
>> >
>> >
>> > On 2012-07-17 3:04 PM Rob Weir wrote:
>> >> Please, everyone. Let's not pile on this thread with more
> name
>> >> calling, etc., in the heat of the moment.
>> >>
>> >> Let's set it aside and see tomorrow if there is anything more
> that
>> >> should be said. We accomplish nothing with rapid-fire, emotional
>> >> responses.
>> >
>> > I will quit responding when Hagar gets the apology he deserves.
>> >
>> > --
>> > _________________________________
>> >
>> > Larry I. Gusaas
>> > Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan Canada
>> > Website: http://larry-gusaas.com
>> > "An artist is never ahead of his time but most people are far
> behind
>> > theirs." - Edgard Varese
>> >
>>
>
> I suggest the other Mentors should _urgently review_ this thread and consider
> what behaviour is expected from a mentor.
>
> It is unfair to require a volunteer to change his level of committment, or to
Relax- nobody is *requiring* anything of anyone. This is about expected and
model behavior. For reasons that escape me at this point, Hagar was made a
committer on this project, and that comes with certain expectations. Additionally
there are expectations on how *anyone* subscribed to this mailing list SHOULD apply
community documentation as it pertains to website maintenance. That is of no surprise
to anyone either.
> suggest that he might need (I quote) "a debilitating illness that prevents
> him from acquiring the requisite skills." If he has not the time or the
> inclination to extend his role, that is sufficient.
It was, at the end of the day, a *challenge* to either accept or pass on. Expect
there to be more of them when others approach this mailing list with bug reports
about web pages, because we want people to use the tools provided by the org to
fix those bugs themselves. Will everyone comply? Of course not. This is just
the first example of that- pity it's coming from a committer.
Re: On parks, commons, and websites... and fun (or lack of)
Posted by Joe Schaefer <jo...@yahoo.com>.
----- Original Message -----
> From: Rory O'Farrell <of...@iol.ie>
> To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
> Cc:
> Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2012 5:29 PM
> Subject: Re: On parks, commons, and websites... and fun (or lack of)
>
> On Tue, 17 Jul 2012 14:20:02 -0700 (PDT)
> Joe Schaefer <jo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> If Hagar has a debilitating illness that prevents him from
>> acquiring the requisite skills, let me apologize for asking
>> him to try to do something a normal person on this mailing
>> list can accomplish for themselves.
>>
>> That's the best you're going to get Larry.
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> > From: Larry Gusaas <la...@gmail.com>
>> > To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
>> > Cc:
>> > Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2012 5:14 PM
>> > Subject: Re: On parks, commons, and websites... and fun (or lack of)
>> >
>> >
>> > On 2012-07-17 3:04 PM Rob Weir wrote:
>> >> Please, everyone. Let's not pile on this thread with more
> name
>> >> calling, etc., in the heat of the moment.
>> >>
>> >> Let's set it aside and see tomorrow if there is anything more
> that
>> >> should be said. We accomplish nothing with rapid-fire, emotional
>> >> responses.
>> >
>> > I will quit responding when Hagar gets the apology he deserves.
>> >
>> > --
>> > _________________________________
>> >
>> > Larry I. Gusaas
>> > Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan Canada
>> > Website: http://larry-gusaas.com
>> > "An artist is never ahead of his time but most people are far
> behind
>> > theirs." - Edgard Varese
>> >
>>
>
> I suggest the other Mentors should _urgently review_ this thread and consider
> what behaviour is expected from a mentor.
>
> It is unfair to require a volunteer to change his level of committment, or to
Relax- nobody is *requiring* anything of anyone. This is about expected and
model behavior. For reasons that escape me at this point, Hagar was made a
committer on this project, and that comes with certain expectations. Additionally
there are expectations on how *anyone* subscribed to this mailing list SHOULD apply
community documentation as it pertains to website maintenance. That is of no surprise
to anyone either.
> suggest that he might need (I quote) "a debilitating illness that prevents
> him from acquiring the requisite skills." If he has not the time or the
> inclination to extend his role, that is sufficient.
It was, at the end of the day, a *challenge* to either accept or pass on. Expect
there to be more of them when others approach this mailing list with bug reports
about web pages, because we want people to use the tools provided by the org to
fix those bugs themselves. Will everyone comply? Of course not. This is just
the first example of that- pity it's coming from a committer.
Re: On parks, commons, and websites... and fun (or lack of)
Posted by Rory O'Farrell <of...@iol.ie>.
On Tue, 17 Jul 2012 14:20:02 -0700 (PDT)
Joe Schaefer <jo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> If Hagar has a debilitating illness that prevents him from
> acquiring the requisite skills, let me apologize for asking
> him to try to do something a normal person on this mailing
> list can accomplish for themselves.
>
> That's the best you're going to get Larry.
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Larry Gusaas <la...@gmail.com>
> > To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
> > Cc:
> > Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2012 5:14 PM
> > Subject: Re: On parks, commons, and websites... and fun (or lack of)
> >
> >
> > On 2012-07-17 3:04 PM Rob Weir wrote:
> >> Please, everyone. Let's not pile on this thread with more name
> >> calling, etc., in the heat of the moment.
> >>
> >> Let's set it aside and see tomorrow if there is anything more that
> >> should be said. We accomplish nothing with rapid-fire, emotional
> >> responses.
> >
> > I will quit responding when Hagar gets the apology he deserves.
> >
> > --
> > _________________________________
> >
> > Larry I. Gusaas
> > Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan Canada
> > Website: http://larry-gusaas.com
> > "An artist is never ahead of his time but most people are far behind
> > theirs." - Edgard Varese
> >
>
I suggest the other Mentors should _urgently review_ this thread and consider what behaviour is expected from a mentor.
It is unfair to require a volunteer to change his level of committment, or to suggest that he might need (I quote) "a debilitating illness that prevents him from acquiring the requisite skills." If he has not the time or the inclination to extend his role, that is sufficient.
--
Rory O'Farrell <of...@iol.ie>
Re: On parks, commons, and websites... and fun (or lack of)
Posted by Joe Schaefer <jo...@yahoo.com>.
If Hagar has a debilitating illness that prevents him from
acquiring the requisite skills, let me apologize for asking
him to try to do something a normal person on this mailing
list can accomplish for themselves.
That's the best you're going to get Larry.
----- Original Message -----
> From: Larry Gusaas <la...@gmail.com>
> To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
> Cc:
> Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2012 5:14 PM
> Subject: Re: On parks, commons, and websites... and fun (or lack of)
>
>
> On 2012-07-17 3:04 PM Rob Weir wrote:
>> Please, everyone. Let's not pile on this thread with more name
>> calling, etc., in the heat of the moment.
>>
>> Let's set it aside and see tomorrow if there is anything more that
>> should be said. We accomplish nothing with rapid-fire, emotional
>> responses.
>
> I will quit responding when Hagar gets the apology he deserves.
>
> --
> _________________________________
>
> Larry I. Gusaas
> Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan Canada
> Website: http://larry-gusaas.com
> "An artist is never ahead of his time but most people are far behind
> theirs." - Edgard Varese
>
Re: On parks, commons, and websites... and fun (or lack of)
Posted by Larry Gusaas <la...@gmail.com>.
On 2012-07-17 3:04 PM Rob Weir wrote:
> Please, everyone. Let's not pile on this thread with more name
> calling, etc., in the heat of the moment.
>
> Let's set it aside and see tomorrow if there is anything more that
> should be said. We accomplish nothing with rapid-fire, emotional
> responses.
I will quit responding when Hagar gets the apology he deserves.
--
_________________________________
Larry I. Gusaas
Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan Canada
Website: http://larry-gusaas.com
"An artist is never ahead of his time but most people are far behind theirs." - Edgard Varese
Re: On parks, commons, and websites... and fun (or lack of)
Posted by Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org>.
Please, everyone. Let's not pile on this thread with more name
calling, etc., in the heat of the moment.
Let's set it aside and see tomorrow if there is anything more that
should be said. We accomplish nothing with rapid-fire, emotional
responses.
Thanks!
-Rob
On Tue, Jul 17, 2012 at 4:54 PM, Larry Gusaas <la...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 2012-07-17 2:38 PM Joe Schaefer wrote:
>>>
>>> ________________________________
>>> From: Hagar Delest <ha...@laposte.net>
>>> To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
>>> Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2012 4:10 PM
>>> Subject: Re: On parks, commons, and websites... and fun (or lack of)
>>>
>>> Let's be clear: I don't have the desire to take the effort to do such
>>> thing.
>>> I volunteer to this project on my free time because I like it. But the
>>> deal
>>> is that I've to like it. I give my time to help users because I find some
>>> fun in it.
>>> So I won't engage in things that bore me. If you can't understand this
>>> simple
>>> fact, there is no point discussing further.
>>
>> Yes you've made that abundantly clear that you find website work boring
>> and
>> beneath you. As I've tried to make clear to you, people here who do that
>> sort of work on your behalf or provide you with the tools to make that
>> work
>> less boring for you will often find your attitude insulting and degrading
>> and
>> yes unfun. Others won't mind in the least. Such is life.
>>
>>
>>> If I had not the committer status, would you have asked me to do it
>>> myself too?
>>
>> Of course I would. Had you been paying attention you would have realized
>> that.
>>
>>> I think not. And again, I'm a committer only because I accepted to report
>>> for
>>> the forums on the blog (meaning a new account to handle, a new tool and a
>>> new responsibility).
>>
>> Committer status has nothing to do with blog credentials.
>>
>>
>>> Which is something that I don't greatly enjoy.
>>>
>>> I accepted the ASF invitation to get more involved in AOO because I
>>> thought there
>>> would be some interesting development for the future of AOO and it could
>>> be fun to
>>> contribute to it. But if it means being bashed like that (thinking it
>>> would be a good
>>
>> thing to report a problem), then no way. You've taken the fun out of it.
>>
>>
>> I haven't attacked you not a single time; I'm not bashing you either. I
>> have
>> challenged you to increase your level of contribution to this project to
>> match
>> the expectations of the other participants and committers on this mailing
>> list.
>> Having said no there's no penalty to pay- nobody's going to strip your
>> karma
>> for not trying. The worst thing that will likely happen to you are the
>> usual
>> social consequences of not meeting the expectations of many of your peers,
>> which
>> may not bother you either. Different strokes for different folks- there
>> is no
>> need for further drama here.
>
>
> Your attacks on Hagar have been insulting and demeaning. Your use of
> language is insulting, despite your claims otherwise. You need to learn how
> to encourage people.
>
> Hagar was a very valuable member of this project. Your mean spirited attacks
> have caused him to resign.
>
> Congratulations on the wonderful job you are doing as a mentor. Not.
>
> --
> _________________________________
>
> Larry I. Gusaas
> Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan Canada
> Website: http://larry-gusaas.com
> "An artist is never ahead of his time but most people are far behind
> theirs." - Edgard Varese
>
>
Re: On parks, commons, and websites... and fun (or lack of)
Posted by Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org>.
On Tue, Jul 17, 2012 at 5:12 PM, Larry Gusaas <la...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 2012-07-17 3:01 PM Joe Schaefer wrote:
>>
>> Larry,
>>
>> I trust you reserve this behavior for this mailing list and
>> do not subject forum participants to the pack-animal behavior
>> you've been exhibiting here lately. The biggest concern I have
>> here with forum participants on this list is how their behavior
>> here translates to their conduct in the forums- I hope we would
>> havegotten wind of it by now if this were commonplace over there.
>> Hagar was brought in to help ensure PPMC oversight over that activity;
>> if he steps down I'm not sure who should replace him.
>
>
> I reserve this behaviour for people like you who make insulting and
> demeaning comments and fail to see or acknowledge how insulting their
> comments are.
>
> Hagar's stepping down is solely your responsibility. As a mentor you should
> be aware of how insulting your comments to Hagar were. You owe Hagar an
> apology.
>
> As far as behaviour, yours is despicable. I am glad you are not active on a
> forum,.
>
Larry, I must remind you of our list conduct guidelines, specifically
numbers 1, 3, 4 & 5:
https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/%28Draft%29List+Conduct+Policy
-Rob
> As a mentor you are doing a lousy job if this thread is an example of your
> typical behaviour. You need to examine your actions here and reevaluate your
> attitude. If you are unable to realize how insulting your remarks to Hagar
> were you should just keep your mouth shut.
>
>
>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>
>>> From: Larry Gusaas <la...@gmail.com>
>>> To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
>>> Cc:
>>> Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2012 4:54 PM
>>> Subject: Re: On parks, commons, and websites... and fun (or lack of)
>>>
>>>
>>> On 2012-07-17 2:38 PM Joe Schaefer wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> ________________________________
>>>>> From: Hagar Delest <ha...@laposte.net>
>>>>> To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2012 4:10 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: On parks, commons, and websites... and fun (or lack of)
>>>>>
>>>>> Let's be clear: I don't have the desire to take the effort to
>>>
>>> do such thing.
>>>>>
>>>>> I volunteer to this project on my free time because I like it. But
>>>>> the
>>>
>>> deal
>>>>>
>>>>> is that I've to like it. I give my time to help users because I
>>>
>>> find some
>>>>>
>>>>> fun in it.
>>>>> So I won't engage in things that bore me. If you can't
>>>
>>> understand this simple
>>>>>
>>>>> fact, there is no point discussing further.
>>>>
>>>> Yes you've made that abundantly clear that you find website work
>>>> boring
>>>
>>> and
>>>>
>>>> beneath you. As I've tried to make clear to you, people here who do
>>>
>>> that
>>>>
>>>> sort of work on your behalf or provide you with the tools to make that
>>>> work
>>>> less boring for you will often find your attitude insulting and
>>>> degrading
>>>
>>> and
>>>>
>>>> yes unfun. Others won't mind in the least. Such is life.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> If I had not the committer status, would you have asked me to do it
>>>
>>> myself too?
>>>>
>>>> Of course I would. Had you been paying attention you would have
>>>> realized
>>>
>>> that.
>>>>>
>>>>> I think not. And again, I'm a committer only because I accepted to
>>>
>>> report for
>>>>>
>>>>> the forums on the blog (meaning a new account to handle, a new tool
>>>>> and
>>>
>>> a new responsibility).
>>>>
>>>> Committer status has nothing to do with blog credentials.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Which is something that I don't greatly enjoy.
>>>>>
>>>>> I accepted the ASF invitation to get more involved in AOO because I
>>>
>>> thought there
>>>>>
>>>>> would be some interesting development for the future of AOO and it
>>>
>>> could be fun to
>>>>>
>>>>> contribute to it. But if it means being bashed like that (thinking it
>>>
>>> would be a good
>>>>
>>>> thing to report a problem), then no way. You've taken the fun out of
>>>
>>> it.
>>>>
>>>> I haven't attacked you not a single time; I'm not bashing you
>>>
>>> either. I have
>>>>
>>>> challenged you to increase your level of contribution to this project
>>>> to
>>>
>>> match
>>>>
>>>> the expectations of the other participants and committers on this
>>>> mailing
>>>
>>> list.
>>>>
>>>> Having said no there's no penalty to pay- nobody's going to strip
>>>
>>> your karma
>>>>
>>>> for not trying. The worst thing that will likely happen to you are
>>>> the
>>>
>>> usual
>>>>
>>>> social consequences of not meeting the expectations of many of your
>>>> peers,
>>>
>>> which
>>>>
>>>> may not bother you either. Different strokes for different folks-
>>>> there is
>>>
>>> no
>>>>
>>>> need for further drama here.
>>>
>>> Your attacks on Hagar have been insulting and demeaning. Your use of
>>> language is
>>> insulting,
>>> despite your claims otherwise. You need to learn how to encourage people.
>>>
>>> Hagar was a very valuable member of this project. Your mean spirited
>>> attacks
>>> have caused him to
>>> resign.
>>>
>>> Congratulations on the wonderful job you are doing as a mentor. Not.
>>>
>>> --
>>> _________________________________
>>>
>>> Larry I. Gusaas
>>> Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan Canada
>>> Website: http://larry-gusaas.com
>>> "An artist is never ahead of his time but most people are far behind
>>> theirs." - Edgard Varese
>>>
>
>
> --
> _________________________________
>
> Larry I. Gusaas
> Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan Canada
> Website: http://larry-gusaas.com
> "An artist is never ahead of his time but most people are far behind
> theirs." - Edgard Varese
>
>
Re: On parks, commons, and websites... and fun (or lack of)
Posted by Joe Schaefer <jo...@yahoo.com>.
Larry,
How do you think someone should be treated who preferred to file
AOO bug reports to the forums instead of to the issue tracker?
Would you encourage that sort of behavior, ignore it, or say
something to them about it?
All I'm saying is that the CMS is the analog to website bugs
as to what bugzilla is to code bugs. The typical website bug
should be "reported" by fixing it through the CMS, and it makes
just as much sense for people to opt out of using the CMS as
it does for people to opt out of using bugzilla for code bugs.
HTH
----- Original Message -----
> From: Larry Gusaas <la...@gmail.com>
> To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
> Cc:
> Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2012 5:12 PM
> Subject: Re: On parks, commons, and websites... and fun (or lack of)
>
>
> On 2012-07-17 3:01 PM Joe Schaefer wrote:
>> Larry,
>>
>> I trust you reserve this behavior for this mailing list and
>> do not subject forum participants to the pack-animal behavior
>> you've been exhibiting here lately. The biggest concern I have
>> here with forum participants on this list is how their behavior
>> here translates to their conduct in the forums- I hope we would
>> havegotten wind of it by now if this were commonplace over there.
>> Hagar was brought in to help ensure PPMC oversight over that activity;
>> if he steps down I'm not sure who should replace him.
>
> I reserve this behaviour for people like you who make insulting and demeaning
> comments and fail
> to see or acknowledge how insulting their comments are.
>
> Hagar's stepping down is solely your responsibility. As a mentor you should
> be aware of how
> insulting your comments to Hagar were. You owe Hagar an apology.
>
> As far as behaviour, yours is despicable. I am glad you are not active on a
> forum,.
>
> As a mentor you are doing a lousy job if this thread is an example of your
> typical behaviour.
> You need to examine your actions here and reevaluate your attitude. If you are
> unable to
> realize how insulting your remarks to Hagar were you should just keep your mouth
> shut.
>
>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: Larry Gusaas <la...@gmail.com>
>>> To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
>>> Cc:
>>> Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2012 4:54 PM
>>> Subject: Re: On parks, commons, and websites... and fun (or lack of)
>>>
>>>
>>> On 2012-07-17 2:38 PM Joe Schaefer wrote:
>>>>> ________________________________
>>>>> From: Hagar Delest <ha...@laposte.net>
>>>>> To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2012 4:10 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: On parks, commons, and websites... and fun (or
> lack of)
>>>>>
>>>>> Let's be clear: I don't have the desire to take the
> effort to
>>> do such thing.
>>>>> I volunteer to this project on my free time because I like
> it. But the
>>> deal
>>>>> is that I've to like it. I give my time to help users
> because I
>>> find some
>>>>> fun in it.
>>>>> So I won't engage in things that bore me. If you
> can't
>>> understand this simple
>>>>> fact, there is no point discussing further.
>>>> Yes you've made that abundantly clear that you find website
> work boring
>>> and
>>>> beneath you. As I've tried to make clear to you, people here
> who do
>>> that
>>>> sort of work on your behalf or provide you with the tools to make
> that work
>>>> less boring for you will often find your attitude insulting and
> degrading
>>> and
>>>> yes unfun. Others won't mind in the least. Such is life.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> If I had not the committer status, would you have asked me to
> do it
>>> myself too?
>>>> Of course I would. Had you been paying attention you would have
> realized
>>> that.
>>>>> I think not. And again, I'm a committer only because I
> accepted to
>>> report for
>>>>> the forums on the blog (meaning a new account to handle, a
> new tool and
>>> a new responsibility).
>>>> Committer status has nothing to do with blog credentials.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Which is something that I don't greatly enjoy.
>>>>>
>>>>> I accepted the ASF invitation to get more involved in AOO
> because I
>>> thought there
>>>>> would be some interesting development for the future of AOO
> and it
>>> could be fun to
>>>>> contribute to it. But if it means being bashed like that
> (thinking it
>>> would be a good
>>>> thing to report a problem), then no way. You've taken the fun
> out of
>>> it.
>>>> I haven't attacked you not a single time; I'm not bashing
> you
>>> either. I have
>>>> challenged you to increase your level of contribution to this
> project to
>>> match
>>>> the expectations of the other participants and committers on this
> mailing
>>> list.
>>>> Having said no there's no penalty to pay- nobody's going
> to strip
>>> your karma
>>>> for not trying. The worst thing that will likely happen to you
> are the
>>> usual
>>>> social consequences of not meeting the expectations of many of
> your peers,
>>> which
>>>> may not bother you either. Different strokes for different
> folks- there is
>>> no
>>>> need for further drama here.
>>> Your attacks on Hagar have been insulting and demeaning. Your use of
> language is
>>> insulting,
>>> despite your claims otherwise. You need to learn how to encourage
> people.
>>>
>>> Hagar was a very valuable member of this project. Your mean spirited
> attacks
>>> have caused him to
>>> resign.
>>>
>>> Congratulations on the wonderful job you are doing as a mentor. Not.
>>>
>>> --
>>> _________________________________
>>>
>>> Larry I. Gusaas
>>> Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan Canada
>>> Website: http://larry-gusaas.com
>>> "An artist is never ahead of his time but most people are far
> behind
>>> theirs." - Edgard Varese
>>>
>
>
> --
> _________________________________
>
> Larry I. Gusaas
> Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan Canada
> Website: http://larry-gusaas.com
> "An artist is never ahead of his time but most people are far behind
> theirs." - Edgard Varese
>
Re: On parks, commons, and websites... and fun (or lack of)
Posted by Larry Gusaas <la...@gmail.com>.
On 2012-07-17 3:01 PM Joe Schaefer wrote:
> Larry,
>
> I trust you reserve this behavior for this mailing list and
> do not subject forum participants to the pack-animal behavior
> you've been exhibiting here lately. The biggest concern I have
> here with forum participants on this list is how their behavior
> here translates to their conduct in the forums- I hope we would
> havegotten wind of it by now if this were commonplace over there.
> Hagar was brought in to help ensure PPMC oversight over that activity;
> if he steps down I'm not sure who should replace him.
I reserve this behaviour for people like you who make insulting and demeaning comments and fail
to see or acknowledge how insulting their comments are.
Hagar's stepping down is solely your responsibility. As a mentor you should be aware of how
insulting your comments to Hagar were. You owe Hagar an apology.
As far as behaviour, yours is despicable. I am glad you are not active on a forum,.
As a mentor you are doing a lousy job if this thread is an example of your typical behaviour.
You need to examine your actions here and reevaluate your attitude. If you are unable to
realize how insulting your remarks to Hagar were you should just keep your mouth shut.
> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Larry Gusaas <la...@gmail.com>
>> To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
>> Cc:
>> Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2012 4:54 PM
>> Subject: Re: On parks, commons, and websites... and fun (or lack of)
>>
>>
>> On 2012-07-17 2:38 PM Joe Schaefer wrote:
>>>> ________________________________
>>>> From: Hagar Delest <ha...@laposte.net>
>>>> To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2012 4:10 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: On parks, commons, and websites... and fun (or lack of)
>>>>
>>>> Let's be clear: I don't have the desire to take the effort to
>> do such thing.
>>>> I volunteer to this project on my free time because I like it. But the
>> deal
>>>> is that I've to like it. I give my time to help users because I
>> find some
>>>> fun in it.
>>>> So I won't engage in things that bore me. If you can't
>> understand this simple
>>>> fact, there is no point discussing further.
>>> Yes you've made that abundantly clear that you find website work boring
>> and
>>> beneath you. As I've tried to make clear to you, people here who do
>> that
>>> sort of work on your behalf or provide you with the tools to make that work
>>> less boring for you will often find your attitude insulting and degrading
>> and
>>> yes unfun. Others won't mind in the least. Such is life.
>>>
>>>
>>>> If I had not the committer status, would you have asked me to do it
>> myself too?
>>> Of course I would. Had you been paying attention you would have realized
>> that.
>>>> I think not. And again, I'm a committer only because I accepted to
>> report for
>>>> the forums on the blog (meaning a new account to handle, a new tool and
>> a new responsibility).
>>> Committer status has nothing to do with blog credentials.
>>>
>>>
>>>> Which is something that I don't greatly enjoy.
>>>>
>>>> I accepted the ASF invitation to get more involved in AOO because I
>> thought there
>>>> would be some interesting development for the future of AOO and it
>> could be fun to
>>>> contribute to it. But if it means being bashed like that (thinking it
>> would be a good
>>> thing to report a problem), then no way. You've taken the fun out of
>> it.
>>> I haven't attacked you not a single time; I'm not bashing you
>> either. I have
>>> challenged you to increase your level of contribution to this project to
>> match
>>> the expectations of the other participants and committers on this mailing
>> list.
>>> Having said no there's no penalty to pay- nobody's going to strip
>> your karma
>>> for not trying. The worst thing that will likely happen to you are the
>> usual
>>> social consequences of not meeting the expectations of many of your peers,
>> which
>>> may not bother you either. Different strokes for different folks- there is
>> no
>>> need for further drama here.
>> Your attacks on Hagar have been insulting and demeaning. Your use of language is
>> insulting,
>> despite your claims otherwise. You need to learn how to encourage people.
>>
>> Hagar was a very valuable member of this project. Your mean spirited attacks
>> have caused him to
>> resign.
>>
>> Congratulations on the wonderful job you are doing as a mentor. Not.
>>
>> --
>> _________________________________
>>
>> Larry I. Gusaas
>> Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan Canada
>> Website: http://larry-gusaas.com
>> "An artist is never ahead of his time but most people are far behind
>> theirs." - Edgard Varese
>>
--
_________________________________
Larry I. Gusaas
Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan Canada
Website: http://larry-gusaas.com
"An artist is never ahead of his time but most people are far behind theirs." - Edgard Varese
Re: On parks, commons, and websites... and fun (or lack of)
Posted by Joe Schaefer <jo...@yahoo.com>.
Larry,
I trust you reserve this behavior for this mailing list and
do not subject forum participants to the pack-animal behavior
you've been exhibiting here lately. The biggest concern I have
here with forum participants on this list is how their behavior
here translates to their conduct in the forums- I hope we would
havegotten wind of it by now if this were commonplace over there.
Hagar was brought in to help ensure PPMC oversight over that activity;
if he steps down I'm not sure who should replace him.
----- Original Message -----
> From: Larry Gusaas <la...@gmail.com>
> To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
> Cc:
> Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2012 4:54 PM
> Subject: Re: On parks, commons, and websites... and fun (or lack of)
>
>
> On 2012-07-17 2:38 PM Joe Schaefer wrote:
>>> ________________________________
>>> From: Hagar Delest <ha...@laposte.net>
>>> To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
>>> Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2012 4:10 PM
>>> Subject: Re: On parks, commons, and websites... and fun (or lack of)
>>>
>>> Let's be clear: I don't have the desire to take the effort to
> do such thing.
>>> I volunteer to this project on my free time because I like it. But the
> deal
>>> is that I've to like it. I give my time to help users because I
> find some
>>> fun in it.
>>> So I won't engage in things that bore me. If you can't
> understand this simple
>>> fact, there is no point discussing further.
>> Yes you've made that abundantly clear that you find website work boring
> and
>> beneath you. As I've tried to make clear to you, people here who do
> that
>> sort of work on your behalf or provide you with the tools to make that work
>> less boring for you will often find your attitude insulting and degrading
> and
>> yes unfun. Others won't mind in the least. Such is life.
>>
>>
>>> If I had not the committer status, would you have asked me to do it
> myself too?
>> Of course I would. Had you been paying attention you would have realized
> that.
>>
>>> I think not. And again, I'm a committer only because I accepted to
> report for
>>> the forums on the blog (meaning a new account to handle, a new tool and
> a new responsibility).
>> Committer status has nothing to do with blog credentials.
>>
>>
>>> Which is something that I don't greatly enjoy.
>>>
>>> I accepted the ASF invitation to get more involved in AOO because I
> thought there
>>> would be some interesting development for the future of AOO and it
> could be fun to
>>> contribute to it. But if it means being bashed like that (thinking it
> would be a good
>> thing to report a problem), then no way. You've taken the fun out of
> it.
>>
>>
>> I haven't attacked you not a single time; I'm not bashing you
> either. I have
>> challenged you to increase your level of contribution to this project to
> match
>> the expectations of the other participants and committers on this mailing
> list.
>> Having said no there's no penalty to pay- nobody's going to strip
> your karma
>> for not trying. The worst thing that will likely happen to you are the
> usual
>> social consequences of not meeting the expectations of many of your peers,
> which
>> may not bother you either. Different strokes for different folks- there is
> no
>> need for further drama here.
>
> Your attacks on Hagar have been insulting and demeaning. Your use of language is
> insulting,
> despite your claims otherwise. You need to learn how to encourage people.
>
> Hagar was a very valuable member of this project. Your mean spirited attacks
> have caused him to
> resign.
>
> Congratulations on the wonderful job you are doing as a mentor. Not.
>
> --
> _________________________________
>
> Larry I. Gusaas
> Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan Canada
> Website: http://larry-gusaas.com
> "An artist is never ahead of his time but most people are far behind
> theirs." - Edgard Varese
>
Re: On parks, commons, and websites... and fun (or lack of)
Posted by Rory O'Farrell <of...@iol.ie>.
On Tue, 17 Jul 2012 14:54:29 -0600
Larry Gusaas <la...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 2012-07-17 2:38 PM Joe Schaefer wrote:
> >> ________________________________
> >> From: Hagar Delest <ha...@laposte.net>
> >> To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
> >> Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2012 4:10 PM
> >> Subject: Re: On parks, commons, and websites... and fun (or lack of)
> >>
> >> Let's be clear: I don't have the desire to take the effort to do such thing.
> >> I volunteer to this project on my free time because I like it. But the deal
> >> is that I've to like it. I give my time to help users because I find some
> >> fun in it.
> >> So I won't engage in things that bore me. If you can't understand this simple
> >> fact, there is no point discussing further.
> > Yes you've made that abundantly clear that you find website work boring and
> > beneath you. As I've tried to make clear to you, people here who do that
> > sort of work on your behalf or provide you with the tools to make that work
> > less boring for you will often find your attitude insulting and degrading and
> > yes unfun. Others won't mind in the least. Such is life.
> >
> >
> >> If I had not the committer status, would you have asked me to do it myself too?
> > Of course I would. Had you been paying attention you would have realized that.
> >
> >> I think not. And again, I'm a committer only because I accepted to report for
> >> the forums on the blog (meaning a new account to handle, a new tool and a new responsibility).
> > Committer status has nothing to do with blog credentials.
> >
> >
> >> Which is something that I don't greatly enjoy.
> >>
> >> I accepted the ASF invitation to get more involved in AOO because I thought there
> >> would be some interesting development for the future of AOO and it could be fun to
> >> contribute to it. But if it means being bashed like that (thinking it would be a good
> > thing to report a problem), then no way. You've taken the fun out of it.
> >
> >
> > I haven't attacked you not a single time; I'm not bashing you either. I have
> > challenged you to increase your level of contribution to this project to match
> > the expectations of the other participants and committers on this mailing list.
> > Having said no there's no penalty to pay- nobody's going to strip your karma
> > for not trying. The worst thing that will likely happen to you are the usual
> > social consequences of not meeting the expectations of many of your peers, which
> > may not bother you either. Different strokes for different folks- there is no
> > need for further drama here.
>
> Your attacks on Hagar have been insulting and demeaning. Your use of language is insulting,
> despite your claims otherwise. You need to learn how to encourage people.
>
> Hagar was a very valuable member of this project. Your mean spirited attacks have caused him to
> resign.
>
> Congratulations on the wonderful job you are doing as a mentor. Not.
>
> --
I agree with Larry Gusaas. It is important to remember that many of the participants to this and other projects have real lives with concommitant duties and responsibilities, which we may not wish to divulge publicly. We give freely of our time, as permitted by those requirements; for some (many) things we have not the spare time or leisure to devote, as in this case learning how to edit a Wiki or a web page and/or making corrections to it.
You say "I have challenged you to increase your level of contribution to this project to match the expectations of the other participants and committers on this mailing list"; this is utter arrogance. You and other contributors to this list have no knowledge of Hagar's responsibilities, or of mine or of most other participants and are not entitled to demand that he do more, simply because you think he ought.
You are perhaps not aware of the full level of Hagar's contribution to one aspect of OpenOffice, the running of the Forum. The Forum takes some hundred a day postings off your lists, in terms of actual queries posted, and some several hundred (perhaps more) per day which are answered by users accessing its knowledge base, which if that were not there could materialise as extra queries posted to your lists. If the Forum collapses, your lists will become unworkable! All you, and all other contributors, are entitled to expect is that we deal honestly and fairly with you, reading nothing beyond that into our words and requiring nothing beyond that; part of that honesty is to say "I have not this or that ability, or the time/inclination to learn it."
If someone points to a flaw, in whatever, and indicates that he has not the time or knowledge or inclination to fix it, then that flaw and fix become fair game for anyone else to fix, and that is as it should be.
--
Rory O'Farrell <of...@iol.ie>
Re: On parks, commons, and websites... and fun (or lack of)
Posted by Larry Gusaas <la...@gmail.com>.
On 2012-07-17 2:38 PM Joe Schaefer wrote:
>> ________________________________
>> From: Hagar Delest <ha...@laposte.net>
>> To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
>> Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2012 4:10 PM
>> Subject: Re: On parks, commons, and websites... and fun (or lack of)
>>
>> Let's be clear: I don't have the desire to take the effort to do such thing.
>> I volunteer to this project on my free time because I like it. But the deal
>> is that I've to like it. I give my time to help users because I find some
>> fun in it.
>> So I won't engage in things that bore me. If you can't understand this simple
>> fact, there is no point discussing further.
> Yes you've made that abundantly clear that you find website work boring and
> beneath you. As I've tried to make clear to you, people here who do that
> sort of work on your behalf or provide you with the tools to make that work
> less boring for you will often find your attitude insulting and degrading and
> yes unfun. Others won't mind in the least. Such is life.
>
>
>> If I had not the committer status, would you have asked me to do it myself too?
> Of course I would. Had you been paying attention you would have realized that.
>
>> I think not. And again, I'm a committer only because I accepted to report for
>> the forums on the blog (meaning a new account to handle, a new tool and a new responsibility).
> Committer status has nothing to do with blog credentials.
>
>
>> Which is something that I don't greatly enjoy.
>>
>> I accepted the ASF invitation to get more involved in AOO because I thought there
>> would be some interesting development for the future of AOO and it could be fun to
>> contribute to it. But if it means being bashed like that (thinking it would be a good
> thing to report a problem), then no way. You've taken the fun out of it.
>
>
> I haven't attacked you not a single time; I'm not bashing you either. I have
> challenged you to increase your level of contribution to this project to match
> the expectations of the other participants and committers on this mailing list.
> Having said no there's no penalty to pay- nobody's going to strip your karma
> for not trying. The worst thing that will likely happen to you are the usual
> social consequences of not meeting the expectations of many of your peers, which
> may not bother you either. Different strokes for different folks- there is no
> need for further drama here.
Your attacks on Hagar have been insulting and demeaning. Your use of language is insulting,
despite your claims otherwise. You need to learn how to encourage people.
Hagar was a very valuable member of this project. Your mean spirited attacks have caused him to
resign.
Congratulations on the wonderful job you are doing as a mentor. Not.
--
_________________________________
Larry I. Gusaas
Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan Canada
Website: http://larry-gusaas.com
"An artist is never ahead of his time but most people are far behind theirs." - Edgard Varese
Re: On parks, commons, and websites... and fun (or lack of)
Posted by Joe Schaefer <jo...@yahoo.com>.
----- Original Message -----
> From: RGB ES <rg...@gmail.com>
> To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org; Joe Schaefer <jo...@yahoo.com>
> Cc:
> Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2012 4:57 PM
> Subject: Re: On parks, commons, and websites... and fun (or lack of)
>
> 2012/7/17 Joe Schaefer <jo...@yahoo.com>:
>>
>>
>> I haven't attacked you not a single time; I'm not bashing you
> either. I have
>> challenged you to increase your level of contribution to this project to
> match
>> the expectations of the other participants and committers on this mailing
> list.
>
> It seems you are completely ignoring who Hagar is and his contribution
> to the project as a whole. Sure, he did not contribute code nor web
> content but he is one of the greatest contributors to the user forums:
> Maybe this means nothing for you but remember that AOO is an end user
> system so being a leading force on user support is REALLY important
> for the project.
I'm only asking that he not require special consideration or require VIP
treatment, as that is not how Apache operates. If he insists, so be it,
it's just an unusual situation. The rules for various roles apply to even
board members in this organization, they are expected to read and apply
documentation just like anyone else.
Re: On parks, commons, and websites... and fun (or lack of)
Posted by RGB ES <rg...@gmail.com>.
2012/7/17 Joe Schaefer <jo...@yahoo.com>:
>
>
> I haven't attacked you not a single time; I'm not bashing you either. I have
> challenged you to increase your level of contribution to this project to match
> the expectations of the other participants and committers on this mailing list.
It seems you are completely ignoring who Hagar is and his contribution
to the project as a whole. Sure, he did not contribute code nor web
content but he is one of the greatest contributors to the user forums:
Maybe this means nothing for you but remember that AOO is an end user
system so being a leading force on user support is REALLY important
for the project.
> Having said no there's no penalty to pay- nobody's going to strip your karma
> for not trying. The worst thing that will likely happen to you are the usual
> social consequences of not meeting the expectations of many of your peers, which
> may not bother you either.
He meets the expectations of all its peers on the forums.
Different strokes for different folks- there is no
> need for further drama here.
Indeed...
Re: On parks, commons, and websites... and fun (or lack of)
Posted by Joe Schaefer <jo...@yahoo.com>.
>________________________________
> From: Hagar Delest <ha...@laposte.net>
>To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
>Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2012 4:10 PM
>Subject: Re: On parks, commons, and websites... and fun (or lack of)
>
>Let's be clear: I don't have the desire to take the effort to do such thing.
>I volunteer to this project on my free time because I like it. But the deal
>is that I've to like it. I give my time to help users because I find some
>fun in it.
>So I won't engage in things that bore me. If you can't understand this simple
>fact, there is no point discussing further.
Yes you've made that abundantly clear that you find website work boring and
beneath you. As I've tried to make clear to you, people here who do that
sort of work on your behalf or provide you with the tools to make that work
less boring for you will often find your attitude insulting and degrading and
yes unfun. Others won't mind in the least. Such is life.
>If I had not the committer status, would you have asked me to do it myself too?
Of course I would. Had you been paying attention you would have realized that.
>I think not. And again, I'm a committer only because I accepted to report for
>the forums on the blog (meaning a new account to handle, a new tool and a new responsibility).
Committer status has nothing to do with blog credentials.
>Which is something that I don't greatly enjoy.
>
>I accepted the ASF invitation to get more involved in AOO because I thought there
>would be some interesting development for the future of AOO and it could be fun to
>contribute to it. But if it means being bashed like that (thinking it would be a good
thing to report a problem), then no way. You've taken the fun out of it.
I haven't attacked you not a single time; I'm not bashing you either. I have
challenged you to increase your level of contribution to this project to match
the expectations of the other participants and committers on this mailing list.
Having said no there's no penalty to pay- nobody's going to strip your karma
for not trying. The worst thing that will likely happen to you are the usual
social consequences of not meeting the expectations of many of your peers, which
may not bother you either. Different strokes for different folks- there is no
need for further drama here.
Re: On parks, commons, and websites... and fun (or lack of)
Posted by Joe Schaefer <jo...@yahoo.com>.
----- Original Message -----
> From: Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org>
> To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
> Cc:
> Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2012 11:27 AM
> Subject: Re: On parks, commons, and websites... and fun (or lack of)
>
> On Wed, Jul 18, 2012 at 10:31 AM, Joe Schaefer <jo...@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>> ----- Original Message -----
>>
>>> From: Jürgen Schmidt <jo...@googlemail.com>
>>> To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
>>> Cc:
>>> Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2012 10:18 AM
>>> Subject: Re: On parks, commons, and websites... and fun (or lack of)
>>
>>> If Hagar really step back and won't continue his great job it will
> be a
>>> big lost. We appreciate your work and what you did for the
>>> infrastructure, the CMS and everything else you do here or for other
>>> projects. But in this special case you completely failed and it is even
>>> more worse because you are a mentor. I am sure that nobody in this
>>> project (excepting other mentors who are surprisingly quite) support
>>> what you have done or better how you have tried to address this. But I
>>> hope that you have learned your lesson as well from this.
>>
>> Let's explore this then, because I don't see why I should feel
> intimidated
>> by how someone might respond to a challenge to do more. Here is how my
>> original email in this thread described Hagar's "behavior":
>>
>>
>> "Other citizens might see the trash but instead of tackling the
> problem
>> themselves, ask another park visitor to clean it up. Not a bad thing
>> to do, but a little bit imposing on the other visitors of the park.
>> Those people might wonder about why the original citizen did not clean
>> up the trash themselves, but occasionally you come across citizens
>> who are happy to just honor the unusual request without issue."
>>
>>
>> I fail to see how describing Hagar's behavior as "not a bad thing
> to do"
>> should trigger a drastic action from Hagar like resigning his
> responsibilities
>> from this project. He seems to be reading far more into what I've
> written,
>> and no this thread wasn't meant to be primarily about him at all.
>
> Hi Joe, I think that any calm, deliberate, factual analysis would
> come to a similar conclusion. But in this case I think it was more a
> matter of tone and other intangible aspects of the post. When I saw
> your original note -- which was a week ago -- I cringed, like when
> hearing a bad note in an orchestra.
>
> But just like in an orchestra, we need to all just play on. If it
> turns into a long debate about who played the wrong note and why and
> whether it was even really a bad note -- nothing good comes from this.
> The time wasted on this is time we should be spending on playing the
> next note.
>
> The weird thing here is that your original note was a week ago.
> Ordinarily I'd expect that emotions would cool down, and any perceived
> affront would diminish over time. But in this case a week passes and
> we have a resignation. That is odd to me.
Well if it will help matters any let me apologize to Hagar for being
impolite towards him last week- that much I think we can all agree on.
This is a job for me, and trying to provide front-line infra support
to this project instead of having you folks chase me down through normal
channels sometimes gets the better of me. I don't pretend to be perfect,
and sometimes will bite someone's head off when a more tactical approach
calls for politeness- but as I said that comes with the territory at times.
Re: On parks, commons, and websites... and fun (or lack of)
Posted by Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org>.
On Wed, Jul 18, 2012 at 10:31 AM, Joe Schaefer <jo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> ----- Original Message -----
>
>> From: Jürgen Schmidt <jo...@googlemail.com>
>> To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
>> Cc:
>> Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2012 10:18 AM
>> Subject: Re: On parks, commons, and websites... and fun (or lack of)
>
>> If Hagar really step back and won't continue his great job it will be a
>> big lost. We appreciate your work and what you did for the
>> infrastructure, the CMS and everything else you do here or for other
>> projects. But in this special case you completely failed and it is even
>> more worse because you are a mentor. I am sure that nobody in this
>> project (excepting other mentors who are surprisingly quite) support
>> what you have done or better how you have tried to address this. But I
>> hope that you have learned your lesson as well from this.
>
> Let's explore this then, because I don't see why I should feel intimidated
> by how someone might respond to a challenge to do more. Here is how my
> original email in this thread described Hagar's "behavior":
>
>
> "Other citizens might see the trash but instead of tackling the problem
> themselves, ask another park visitor to clean it up. Not a bad thing
> to do, but a little bit imposing on the other visitors of the park.
> Those people might wonder about why the original citizen did not clean
> up the trash themselves, but occasionally you come across citizens
> who are happy to just honor the unusual request without issue."
>
>
> I fail to see how describing Hagar's behavior as "not a bad thing to do"
> should trigger a drastic action from Hagar like resigning his responsibilities
> from this project. He seems to be reading far more into what I've written,
> and no this thread wasn't meant to be primarily about him at all.
Hi Joe, I think that any calm, deliberate, factual analysis would
come to a similar conclusion. But in this case I think it was more a
matter of tone and other intangible aspects of the post. When I saw
your original note -- which was a week ago -- I cringed, like when
hearing a bad note in an orchestra.
But just like in an orchestra, we need to all just play on. If it
turns into a long debate about who played the wrong note and why and
whether it was even really a bad note -- nothing good comes from this.
The time wasted on this is time we should be spending on playing the
next note.
The weird thing here is that your original note was a week ago.
Ordinarily I'd expect that emotions would cool down, and any perceived
affront would diminish over time. But in this case a week passes and
we have a resignation. That is odd to me.
The failure here, IMHO, is that we're not thinking broadly enough to
accept two assertions simultaneously:
1) That Joe is right in pushing for more people, especially AOO
committers, to help maintain the website
and
2) Hagar is right in believing that he is a volunteer and can do as
much or as little as he pleases
or
A) Someone reporting a website defect does some good for the project,
even if they don't take the extra step of fixing the defect themselves
and
B) Someone encouraging others to use the CMS to fix website defects
themselves is doing good for the project, even if occasionally there
are some who do not want to use the CMS
Both statements are true. They are not in conflict. If we
acknowledge both as true, I don't see the remaining issue.
-Rob
Re: On parks, commons, and websites... and fun (or lack of)
Posted by Joe Schaefer <jo...@yahoo.com>.
----- Original Message -----
> From: Jürgen Schmidt <jo...@googlemail.com>
> To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
> Cc:
> Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2012 10:18 AM
> Subject: Re: On parks, commons, and websites... and fun (or lack of)
> If Hagar really step back and won't continue his great job it will be a
> big lost. We appreciate your work and what you did for the
> infrastructure, the CMS and everything else you do here or for other
> projects. But in this special case you completely failed and it is even
> more worse because you are a mentor. I am sure that nobody in this
> project (excepting other mentors who are surprisingly quite) support
> what you have done or better how you have tried to address this. But I
> hope that you have learned your lesson as well from this.
Let's explore this then, because I don't see why I should feel intimidated
by how someone might respond to a challenge to do more. Here is how my
original email in this thread described Hagar's "behavior":
"Other citizens might see the trash but instead of tackling the problem
themselves, ask another park visitor to clean it up. Not a bad thing
to do, but a little bit imposing on the other visitors of the park.
Those people might wonder about why the original citizen did not clean
up the trash themselves, but occasionally you come across citizens
who are happy to just honor the unusual request without issue."
I fail to see how describing Hagar's behavior as "not a bad thing to do"
should trigger a drastic action from Hagar like resigning his responsibilities
from this project. He seems to be reading far more into what I've written,
and no this thread wasn't meant to be primarily about him at all.
Re: On parks, commons, and websites... and fun (or lack of)
Posted by Dave Fisher <da...@comcast.net>.
I know that as a Mentor (only for Flex) my responsibility is to guide the community to sustainability. Most of the time I am quiet, respond when needed and let the project make its own decisions.
Note that Christian, an original Mentor, recently asked about graduation.
I won't speculate on why the other mentors have been quiet on this thread. Every reason is different.
Regards,
Dave
On Jul 18, 2012, at 7:18 AM, Jürgen Schmidt wrote:
> On 7/18/12 3:49 PM, Joe Schaefer wrote:
>> ----- Original Message -----
>>
>>> From: Andrea Pescetti <pe...@apache.org>
>>> To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
>>> Cc: hagar.delest@laposte.net
>>> Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2012 3:26 AM
>>> Subject: Re: On parks, commons, and websites... and fun (or lack of)
>>>
>>> Hagar Delest wrote:
>>>> You've taken the fun out of it. ...
>>>> As a consequence, I resign from my PPMC role and will unsubscribe the
>>>> dev & private mailing lists right now.
>>>
>>> It's a very sad (hopefully temporary) consequence.
>>>
>>> It proves that the OpenOffice project is not mature yet: it can still happen
>>> that one person's (well-meant) behavior can force a valuable contributor out
>>> of this project without this contributor having done anything against the
>>> project.
>>>
>>> This community must become stronger and more welcoming: we've improved a lot
>>> in handling localization volunteers recently, and further improvements will come
>>> naturally. But we can't afford to lose community volunteers this way.
>>
>> Well yes the loss is disappointing, let's hope he reconsiders. But as I have
>> said before, this project has a rather serious "human resource shortfall" when
>> it comes to the www.openoffice.org website. There are literally thousands upon
>> thousands of pages there, some of it in languages foreign to the existing set
>> of committers, and of Dave's 20 or so volunteers who have contributed so far,
>> significantly less than 100 pages have been touched by human hands over
>> the past year- other than through Dave's sledgehammers to sitewide header and
>> footer templates. As a mentor that remains an ongoing unsolved problem for this
>> group to pay some attention to. Let's not lose sight of the big picture here.
>>
>> So instead of entirely focusing on the potential loss of a key individual, I will
>> continue to advocate the position that we encourage people to get actively involved
>> in the care and upkeep of the site, starting with fellow committers on the project
>> and expanding to potential interested parties on this list.
>>
>
> yes it is always good to encourage people to get actively involved,
> attract new developers, new translators, new forum admins, etc.
> Everybody should do what's possible and in the scope of their interest.
> Our project is so huge that their is place for everybody and we the
> project members accept this and welcome everybody.
>
> If Hagar really step back and won't continue his great job it will be a
> big lost. We appreciate your work and what you did for the
> infrastructure, the CMS and everything else you do here or for other
> projects. But in this special case you completely failed and it is even
> more worse because you are a mentor. I am sure that nobody in this
> project (excepting other mentors who are surprisingly quite) support
> what you have done or better how you have tried to address this. But I
> hope that you have learned your lesson as well from this.
>
> I am personally not happy with the whole story but believe that we will
> come stronger out of it and hopefully with Hagar!!!
>
> Related to your concerns regarding the web pages, they need indeed a
> cleanup and a lot of redesign and I think we have already thought about
> it. But it is not the only working area that needs our focus and we
> lived with the content for a while now. You can't grab volunteers from
> trees like ripe apples ;-)
>
> Juergen
>
>
Re: On parks, commons, and websites... and fun (or lack of)
Posted by Jürgen Schmidt <jo...@googlemail.com>.
On 7/18/12 3:49 PM, Joe Schaefer wrote:
> ----- Original Message -----
>
>> From: Andrea Pescetti <pe...@apache.org>
>> To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
>> Cc: hagar.delest@laposte.net
>> Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2012 3:26 AM
>> Subject: Re: On parks, commons, and websites... and fun (or lack of)
>>
>> Hagar Delest wrote:
>>> You've taken the fun out of it. ...
>>> As a consequence, I resign from my PPMC role and will unsubscribe the
>>> dev & private mailing lists right now.
>>
>> It's a very sad (hopefully temporary) consequence.
>>
>> It proves that the OpenOffice project is not mature yet: it can still happen
>> that one person's (well-meant) behavior can force a valuable contributor out
>> of this project without this contributor having done anything against the
>> project.
>>
>> This community must become stronger and more welcoming: we've improved a lot
>> in handling localization volunteers recently, and further improvements will come
>> naturally. But we can't afford to lose community volunteers this way.
>
> Well yes the loss is disappointing, let's hope he reconsiders. But as I have
> said before, this project has a rather serious "human resource shortfall" when
> it comes to the www.openoffice.org website. There are literally thousands upon
> thousands of pages there, some of it in languages foreign to the existing set
> of committers, and of Dave's 20 or so volunteers who have contributed so far,
> significantly less than 100 pages have been touched by human hands over
> the past year- other than through Dave's sledgehammers to sitewide header and
> footer templates. As a mentor that remains an ongoing unsolved problem for this
> group to pay some attention to. Let's not lose sight of the big picture here.
>
> So instead of entirely focusing on the potential loss of a key individual, I will
> continue to advocate the position that we encourage people to get actively involved
> in the care and upkeep of the site, starting with fellow committers on the project
> and expanding to potential interested parties on this list.
>
yes it is always good to encourage people to get actively involved,
attract new developers, new translators, new forum admins, etc.
Everybody should do what's possible and in the scope of their interest.
Our project is so huge that their is place for everybody and we the
project members accept this and welcome everybody.
If Hagar really step back and won't continue his great job it will be a
big lost. We appreciate your work and what you did for the
infrastructure, the CMS and everything else you do here or for other
projects. But in this special case you completely failed and it is even
more worse because you are a mentor. I am sure that nobody in this
project (excepting other mentors who are surprisingly quite) support
what you have done or better how you have tried to address this. But I
hope that you have learned your lesson as well from this.
I am personally not happy with the whole story but believe that we will
come stronger out of it and hopefully with Hagar!!!
Related to your concerns regarding the web pages, they need indeed a
cleanup and a lot of redesign and I think we have already thought about
it. But it is not the only working area that needs our focus and we
lived with the content for a while now. You can't grab volunteers from
trees like ripe apples ;-)
Juergen
Re: On parks, commons, and websites... and fun (or lack of)
Posted by Joe Schaefer <jo...@yahoo.com>.
----- Original Message -----
> From: Andrea Pescetti <pe...@apache.org>
> To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
> Cc: hagar.delest@laposte.net
> Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2012 3:26 AM
> Subject: Re: On parks, commons, and websites... and fun (or lack of)
>
> Hagar Delest wrote:
>> You've taken the fun out of it. ...
>> As a consequence, I resign from my PPMC role and will unsubscribe the
>> dev & private mailing lists right now.
>
> It's a very sad (hopefully temporary) consequence.
>
> It proves that the OpenOffice project is not mature yet: it can still happen
> that one person's (well-meant) behavior can force a valuable contributor out
> of this project without this contributor having done anything against the
> project.
>
> This community must become stronger and more welcoming: we've improved a lot
> in handling localization volunteers recently, and further improvements will come
> naturally. But we can't afford to lose community volunteers this way.
Well yes the loss is disappointing, let's hope he reconsiders. But as I have
said before, this project has a rather serious "human resource shortfall" when
it comes to the www.openoffice.org website. There are literally thousands upon
thousands of pages there, some of it in languages foreign to the existing set
of committers, and of Dave's 20 or so volunteers who have contributed so far,
significantly less than 100 pages have been touched by human hands over
the past year- other than through Dave's sledgehammers to sitewide header and
footer templates. As a mentor that remains an ongoing unsolved problem for this
group to pay some attention to. Let's not lose sight of the big picture here.
So instead of entirely focusing on the potential loss of a key individual, I will
continue to advocate the position that we encourage people to get actively involved
in the care and upkeep of the site, starting with fellow committers on the project
and expanding to potential interested parties on this list.
Re: On parks, commons, and websites... and fun (or lack of)
Posted by Andrea Pescetti <pe...@apache.org>.
Hagar Delest wrote:
> You've taken the fun out of it. ...
> As a consequence, I resign from my PPMC role and will unsubscribe the
> dev & private mailing lists right now.
It's a very sad (hopefully temporary) consequence.
It proves that the OpenOffice project is not mature yet: it can still
happen that one person's (well-meant) behavior can force a valuable
contributor out of this project without this contributor having done
anything against the project.
This community must become stronger and more welcoming: we've improved a
lot in handling localization volunteers recently, and further
improvements will come naturally. But we can't afford to lose community
volunteers this way.
Regards,
Andrea.
Re: On parks, commons, and websites... and fun (or lack of)
Posted by Hagar Delest <ha...@laposte.net>.
Let's be clear: I don't have the desire to take the effort to do such thing.
I volunteer to this project on my free time because I like it. But the deal is that I've to like it. I give my time to help users because I find some fun in it.
So I won't engage in things that bore me. If you can't understand this simple fact, there is no point discussing further.
If I had not the committer status, would you have asked me to do it myself too? I think not. And again, I'm a committer only because I accepted to report for the forums on the blog (meaning a new account to handle, a new tool and a new responsibility). Which is something that I don't greatly enjoy.
I accepted the ASF invitation to get more involved in AOO because I thought there would be some interesting development for the future of AOO and it could be fun to contribute to it. But if it means being bashed like that (thinking it would be a good thing to report a problem), then no way. You've taken the fun out of it.
As a consequence, I resign from my PPMC role and will unsubscribe the dev & private mailing lists right now. Please close my Roller account too (something I can't JFDI I guess).
Good luck to the developers.
Hagar
Le mar. 17 juil. 2012 21:06:32 CEST, Joe Schaefer <jo...@yahoo.com> a écrit :
> What specific skill do you think is required that
> the average citizen who participates on this mailing
> list does not already possess? Perhaps the receptacle
> system is foreign to you personally, but other members of
> this communityhave documented how they work. There's
> even tutorials running about here and there about how
> to deal with trash on the site. All anyone expects
> someone like you is to make an effort to apply the pre-written
> documentationto your own circumstances. I have little doubt
> the forumswork in the same way. If you are having trouble
> locating the documentation that's something we can all
> work on together.
>
>
> Fixing a busted link on a website is a trash cleanup
> activity. If you are unsure whether or not it is
>
> a change others will agree with then opening a discussion
> about it is fine. However, website changes are CTR and
> expecting other citizens to take the result of an RTC
> conversation and clean up the trash on your behalf is not
> exactly enlightened self-interest at work. I've personally
> witnessed individuals with severe mental and physical disabilities
> follow the same instructions with success that I am expecting
> you to follow in the future. As others have witnessed to you,
> your peers who have tried for themselves have not found the process
> intellectually challenging enough to file formal complaints with
> infra or with this project.
>
>
> You can do this. Everyone on this list can do this. All I'm
> challenging people to do is to make an effort, I don't think I'm
> expecting a miracle.
>
>
>
>
>> ________________________________
>>
>> From: Hagar Delest <ha...@laposte.net>
>> To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
>> Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2012 2:49 PM
>> Subject: Re: On parks, commons, and websites
>>
>> This comparison is pure nonsense.
>> Putting something in a trash does not require any specific skill and doesn't call for any discussion about it.
>>
>> Imagine instead that a visitor notices a sign in your park that is showing a wrong direction.
>> First, perhaps there is a reason behind this: should this sign be changed or not (because there is evidence, not known by the visitor yet that it should not be changed)?
>> Second, is the visitor skilled enough to change himself the sign? He needs a tool, then get the right sign (perhaps there are several possibilities) and fix it.
>> Do you think that a visitor would really engage in such a process?
>>
>> See the difference?
>>
>> Hagar
>>
>> Le mar. 17 juil. 2012 20:04:17 CEST, Joe Schaefer <jo...@yahoo.com> a écrit :
>>
>>> Since I'm still not satisfied that people have understood
>>> the point I've tried to make about the CMS and website management,
>>> let me couch it in a more familiar analogy so you can better
>>> understand where I'm coming from and why I do what I do.
>>>
>>> Imagine your website as if it were a giant park that various
>>> citizens of the planet come to observe, visit and participate
>>> in. What would you do if by chance you were a park visitor
>>> and noticed that some other citizen had left behind a little
>>> bit of trash in the park?
>>>
>>> A lot of average citizens would say to themselves "Hey, I'm just
>>> a visitor here, it's not my problem" and go on with their
>>> activities ignoring the trash.
>>>
>>>
>>> A more concerned citizen might say to themselves, "hey, someone
>>> should do something about that trash. Lemme go ask the park ranger
>>> to clean it up." Eventually the park ranger might do something
>>> about it, but a more enlightened ranger might say to the camper
>>> "I've gone ahead and put out trash receptacles in lots of convenient
>>> locations. Is it possible for you to take care of this yourself?
>>> I'm quite busy tending to other areas of the park, including other parks.
>>> Thanks. I'll put up more signs explaining to visitors the importance
>>> of cleaning up after themselves."
>>>
>>>
>>> Some citizens might react badly to the park ranger's response, and
>>> go away pissed off and ignoring the trash. They might then complain
>>> to other citizens that the park is being badly managed and should get
>>> more help.
>>>
>>> Other citizens might see the trash but instead of tackling the problem
>>> themselves, ask another park visitor to clean it up. Not a bad thing
>>> to do, but a little bit imposing on the other visitors of the park.
>>> Those people might wonder about why the original citizen did not clean
>>> up the trash themselves, but occasionally you come across citizens
>>> who are happy to just honor the unusual request without issue.
>>>
>>>
>>> Other citizens, those acting with enlightened self-interest, will
>>> react differently to the park ranger's advice. They realize the trash
>>> problem is a social problem for citizens to solve, not something a park
>>> ranger is equipped to deal with. They will work alongside the park
>>> ranger to post advertisements about civic responsibility, conduct community
>>> awareness meetings to teach others about how to deal with trash, etc.
>>> And most importantly, they will pick up whatever trash they are made
>>> aware of without fuss. Citizens like this are often recognized by the park
>>> itself as friends, stewards, and volunteers of the park, and given membership
>>> in the entire park system's oversight and governance.
>>>
>>
>>
>>
Re: On parks, commons, and websites
Posted by Rob Weir <ro...@apache.org>.
On Tue, Jul 17, 2012 at 3:06 PM, Joe Schaefer <jo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> What specific skill do you think is required that
> the average citizen who participates on this mailing
> list does not already possess? Perhaps the receptacle
> system is foreign to you personally, but other members of
> this communityhave documented how they work. There's
> even tutorials running about here and there about how
> to deal with trash on the site. All anyone expects
> someone like you is to make an effort to apply the pre-written
> documentationto your own circumstances. I have little doubt
> the forumswork in the same way. If you are having trouble
> locating the documentation that's something we can all
> work on together.
>
>
> Fixing a busted link on a website is a trash cleanup
> activity. If you are unsure whether or not it is
>
> a change others will agree with then opening a discussion
> about it is fine. However, website changes are CTR and
> expecting other citizens to take the result of an RTC
> conversation and clean up the trash on your behalf is not
> exactly enlightened self-interest at work. I've personally
> witnessed individuals with severe mental and physical disabilities
> follow the same instructions with success that I am expecting
> you to follow in the future. As others have witnessed to you,
> your peers who have tried for themselves have not found the process
> intellectually challenging enough to file formal complaints with
> infra or with this project.
>
>
> You can do this. Everyone on this list can do this. All I'm
> challenging people to do is to make an effort, I don't think I'm
> expecting a miracle.
>
I'd put it like this: the website is there to support *all* functions
and roles in the project, from dev, qa, translation, marketing, ui,
even support. The CMS is designed to be usable by everyone. All
project members should be encouraged to learn how to use the CMS, and
to avail themselves of "self-service" when needing website changes.
The website is too large for editing to be filtered through a small
number of volunteers. We need everyone to feel empowered, both
technically, as we as process-wise, to make any needed changes.
That said, we have a lot of people who signed up for this project that
are doing absolutely nothing. So I don't think we should beat up on a
volunteer who is doing something (reporting an issue) just because he
could be doing more (fixing the issue). Reporting a bug is far better
than nothing. If we had more people doing that it would be progress.
Of course, more people fixing website bugs is even more progress. But
one step at a time. But I do agree that using the CMS should be an
"essential skill", like using Bugzilla or the Wiki, that everyone in
the project should try get comfortable with.
-Rob
>
>
>
>>________________________________
>>
>>From: Hagar Delest <ha...@laposte.net>
>>To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
>>Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2012 2:49 PM
>>Subject: Re: On parks, commons, and websites
>>
>>This comparison is pure nonsense.
>>Putting something in a trash does not require any specific skill and doesn't call for any discussion about it.
>>
>>Imagine instead that a visitor notices a sign in your park that is showing a wrong direction.
>>First, perhaps there is a reason behind this: should this sign be changed or not (because there is evidence, not known by the visitor yet that it should not be changed)?
>>Second, is the visitor skilled enough to change himself the sign? He needs a tool, then get the right sign (perhaps there are several possibilities) and fix it.
>>Do you think that a visitor would really engage in such a process?
>>
>>See the difference?
>>
>>Hagar
>>
>>Le mar. 17 juil. 2012 20:04:17 CEST, Joe Schaefer <jo...@yahoo.com> a écrit :
>>
>>> Since I'm still not satisfied that people have understood
>>> the point I've tried to make about the CMS and website management,
>>> let me couch it in a more familiar analogy so you can better
>>> understand where I'm coming from and why I do what I do.
>>>
>>> Imagine your website as if it were a giant park that various
>>> citizens of the planet come to observe, visit and participate
>>> in. What would you do if by chance you were a park visitor
>>> and noticed that some other citizen had left behind a little
>>> bit of trash in the park?
>>>
>>> A lot of average citizens would say to themselves "Hey, I'm just
>>> a visitor here, it's not my problem" and go on with their
>>> activities ignoring the trash.
>>>
>>>
>>> A more concerned citizen might say to themselves, "hey, someone
>>> should do something about that trash. Lemme go ask the park ranger
>>> to clean it up." Eventually the park ranger might do something
>>> about it, but a more enlightened ranger might say to the camper
>>> "I've gone ahead and put out trash receptacles in lots of convenient
>>> locations. Is it possible for you to take care of this yourself?
>>> I'm quite busy tending to other areas of the park, including other parks.
>>> Thanks. I'll put up more signs explaining to visitors the importance
>>> of cleaning up after themselves."
>>>
>>>
>>> Some citizens might react badly to the park ranger's response, and
>>> go away pissed off and ignoring the trash. They might then complain
>>> to other citizens that the park is being badly managed and should get
>>> more help.
>>>
>>> Other citizens might see the trash but instead of tackling the problem
>>> themselves, ask another park visitor to clean it up. Not a bad thing
>>> to do, but a little bit imposing on the other visitors of the park.
>>> Those people might wonder about why the original citizen did not clean
>>> up the trash themselves, but occasionally you come across citizens
>>> who are happy to just honor the unusual request without issue.
>>>
>>>
>>> Other citizens, those acting with enlightened self-interest, will
>>> react differently to the park ranger's advice. They realize the trash
>>> problem is a social problem for citizens to solve, not something a park
>>> ranger is equipped to deal with. They will work alongside the park
>>> ranger to post advertisements about civic responsibility, conduct community
>>> awareness meetings to teach others about how to deal with trash, etc.
>>> And most importantly, they will pick up whatever trash they are made
>>> aware of without fuss. Citizens like this are often recognized by the park
>>> itself as friends, stewards, and volunteers of the park, and given membership
>>> in the entire park system's oversight and governance.
>>>
>>
>>
>>
Re: On parks, commons, and websites
Posted by Joe Schaefer <jo...@yahoo.com>.
What specific skill do you think is required that
the average citizen who participates on this mailing
list does not already possess? Perhaps the receptacle
system is foreign to you personally, but other members of
this communityhave documented how they work. There's
even tutorials running about here and there about how
to deal with trash on the site. All anyone expects
someone like you is to make an effort to apply the pre-written
documentationto your own circumstances. I have little doubt
the forumswork in the same way. If you are having trouble
locating the documentation that's something we can all
work on together.
Fixing a busted link on a website is a trash cleanup
activity. If you are unsure whether or not it is
a change others will agree with then opening a discussion
about it is fine. However, website changes are CTR and
expecting other citizens to take the result of an RTC
conversation and clean up the trash on your behalf is not
exactly enlightened self-interest at work. I've personally
witnessed individuals with severe mental and physical disabilities
follow the same instructions with success that I am expecting
you to follow in the future. As others have witnessed to you,
your peers who have tried for themselves have not found the process
intellectually challenging enough to file formal complaints with
infra or with this project.
You can do this. Everyone on this list can do this. All I'm
challenging people to do is to make an effort, I don't think I'm
expecting a miracle.
>________________________________
>
>From: Hagar Delest <ha...@laposte.net>
>To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org
>Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2012 2:49 PM
>Subject: Re: On parks, commons, and websites
>
>This comparison is pure nonsense.
>Putting something in a trash does not require any specific skill and doesn't call for any discussion about it.
>
>Imagine instead that a visitor notices a sign in your park that is showing a wrong direction.
>First, perhaps there is a reason behind this: should this sign be changed or not (because there is evidence, not known by the visitor yet that it should not be changed)?
>Second, is the visitor skilled enough to change himself the sign? He needs a tool, then get the right sign (perhaps there are several possibilities) and fix it.
>Do you think that a visitor would really engage in such a process?
>
>See the difference?
>
>Hagar
>
>Le mar. 17 juil. 2012 20:04:17 CEST, Joe Schaefer <jo...@yahoo.com> a écrit :
>
>> Since I'm still not satisfied that people have understood
>> the point I've tried to make about the CMS and website management,
>> let me couch it in a more familiar analogy so you can better
>> understand where I'm coming from and why I do what I do.
>>
>> Imagine your website as if it were a giant park that various
>> citizens of the planet come to observe, visit and participate
>> in. What would you do if by chance you were a park visitor
>> and noticed that some other citizen had left behind a little
>> bit of trash in the park?
>>
>> A lot of average citizens would say to themselves "Hey, I'm just
>> a visitor here, it's not my problem" and go on with their
>> activities ignoring the trash.
>>
>>
>> A more concerned citizen might say to themselves, "hey, someone
>> should do something about that trash. Lemme go ask the park ranger
>> to clean it up." Eventually the park ranger might do something
>> about it, but a more enlightened ranger might say to the camper
>> "I've gone ahead and put out trash receptacles in lots of convenient
>> locations. Is it possible for you to take care of this yourself?
>> I'm quite busy tending to other areas of the park, including other parks.
>> Thanks. I'll put up more signs explaining to visitors the importance
>> of cleaning up after themselves."
>>
>>
>> Some citizens might react badly to the park ranger's response, and
>> go away pissed off and ignoring the trash. They might then complain
>> to other citizens that the park is being badly managed and should get
>> more help.
>>
>> Other citizens might see the trash but instead of tackling the problem
>> themselves, ask another park visitor to clean it up. Not a bad thing
>> to do, but a little bit imposing on the other visitors of the park.
>> Those people might wonder about why the original citizen did not clean
>> up the trash themselves, but occasionally you come across citizens
>> who are happy to just honor the unusual request without issue.
>>
>>
>> Other citizens, those acting with enlightened self-interest, will
>> react differently to the park ranger's advice. They realize the trash
>> problem is a social problem for citizens to solve, not something a park
>> ranger is equipped to deal with. They will work alongside the park
>> ranger to post advertisements about civic responsibility, conduct community
>> awareness meetings to teach others about how to deal with trash, etc.
>> And most importantly, they will pick up whatever trash they are made
>> aware of without fuss. Citizens like this are often recognized by the park
>> itself as friends, stewards, and volunteers of the park, and given membership
>> in the entire park system's oversight and governance.
>>
>
>
>
Re: On parks, commons, and websites
Posted by Hagar Delest <ha...@laposte.net>.
This comparison is pure nonsense.
Putting something in a trash does not require any specific skill and doesn't call for any discussion about it.
Imagine instead that a visitor notices a sign in your park that is showing a wrong direction.
First, perhaps there is a reason behind this: should this sign be changed or not (because there is evidence, not known by the visitor yet that it should not be changed)?
Second, is the visitor skilled enough to change himself the sign? He needs a tool, then get the right sign (perhaps there are several possibilities) and fix it.
Do you think that a visitor would really engage in such a process?
See the difference?
Hagar
Le mar. 17 juil. 2012 20:04:17 CEST, Joe Schaefer <jo...@yahoo.com> a écrit :
> Since I'm still not satisfied that people have understood
> the point I've tried to make about the CMS and website management,
> let me couch it in a more familiar analogy so you can better
> understand where I'm coming from and why I do what I do.
>
> Imagine your website as if it were a giant park that various
> citizens of the planet come to observe, visit and participate
> in. What would you do if by chance you were a park visitor
> and noticed that some other citizen had left behind a little
> bit of trash in the park?
>
> A lot of average citizens would say to themselves "Hey, I'm just
> a visitor here, it's not my problem" and go on with their
> activities ignoring the trash.
>
>
> A more concerned citizen might say to themselves, "hey, someone
> should do something about that trash. Lemme go ask the park ranger
> to clean it up." Eventually the park ranger might do something
> about it, but a more enlightened ranger might say to the camper
> "I've gone ahead and put out trash receptacles in lots of convenient
> locations. Is it possible for you to take care of this yourself?
> I'm quite busy tending to other areas of the park, including other parks.
> Thanks. I'll put up more signs explaining to visitors the importance
> of cleaning up after themselves."
>
>
> Some citizens might react badly to the park ranger's response, and
> go away pissed off and ignoring the trash. They might then complain
> to other citizens that the park is being badly managed and should get
> more help.
>
> Other citizens might see the trash but instead of tackling the problem
> themselves, ask another park visitor to clean it up. Not a bad thing
> to do, but a little bit imposing on the other visitors of the park.
> Those people might wonder about why the original citizen did not clean
> up the trash themselves, but occasionally you come across citizens
> who are happy to just honor the unusual request without issue.
>
>
> Other citizens, those acting with enlightened self-interest, will
> react differently to the park ranger's advice. They realize the trash
> problem is a social problem for citizens to solve, not something a park
> ranger is equipped to deal with. They will work alongside the park
> ranger to post advertisements about civic responsibility, conduct community
> awareness meetings to teach others about how to deal with trash, etc.
> And most importantly, they will pick up whatever trash they are made
> aware of without fuss. Citizens like this are often recognized by the park
> itself as friends, stewards, and volunteers of the park, and given membership
> in the entire park system's oversight and governance.
>