Re: Was Community-Driven OFBiz a Mistake?

[Ruth Hoffman <rh...@aesolves.com>]

David:
It doesn't have to be so "black" and "white". You can still have 
community driven software with the Apache license and enjoy sponsorship 
from commercial entities. It happens all the time.

Ruth

David E Jones wrote:
> Matt,
>
> You might be interested to hear that early in the life of OFBiz, and after technology investing recovered from the lull in 2000-2001, I was approached by a number of investors who wanted to turn OFBiz into a commercial open source project instead of a community-driven one (which would require a change in licensing to the GPL or something similar so that end-users would have an incentive to purchase licenses; would also require centralizing and/or license value added services instead of pushing for an open playing field). However, my intent from the beginning was to have OFBiz be a community-driven project so I stuck with that.
>
> Perhaps that was a mistake?
>
> About this comment: "So if you want an OFBiz solution, pay us and we'll get you a custom OFBiz solution-- otherwise, don't waste our time." That's pretty insulting and low-brow. If that were really the case then people who abandon other ERP software to work on OFBiz wouldn't be doing so because it is easier to customize... and yes, that is the main reason I hear from those experienced with other ERP software. Also, there would be no attempts whatsoever at documentation, and instead there are thousands of pages of it (in fact, probably too much for most people, making it harder to find the info they want, leading to complaints of no documentation when the fact is they just haven't bothered to read it).
>
> Take a look at the OFBiz service providers page and the PMC and committers page and see how much overlap there is between them. Here's the spoiler: there isn't much overlap at all. The vast majority of service providers never contribute back to the project. The vast majority of the business around OFBiz results in profit that contributors never see a penny of. If I were to estimate I'd say it's probably only 1-2% of the money that gets back to the smaller group that contributes 90% of the code. In other words, most of the customization work is done by people who don't contribute to the project, and who don't pay for training or any other sort of service. They figure it out on their own for the most part.
>
> On the other hand, if you think you can get my time for free just because I'm willing to share the intellectual property I create, then you're in for some big disappointment! And how could it be any other way?
>
> So here we go... we've got a community-driven project and people want it to be a commercial project. I've been pushing for years for community-driven software and trying to attract developers to help build this thing, and for some history about that and concepts related to it please see my blog:
>
> http://osofbiz.blogspot.com/
>
> There are a number of posts on this topic, and this one might be of particular interest:
>
> http://osofbiz.blogspot.com/2008/01/glass-cathedrals-and-community-versus.html
>
> So, this gets me back to the question I asked above... was all of this a mistake? Was I wrong about this approach? Is that the message I'm hearing more and more? Should I have gone the commercial route with the possibly higher pay out, and probably much cleaner and fancier looking resulting software, and significantly more marketing exposure, and at least being able to get the time of day from technology press folks?
>
> -David
>
>
> On Feb 24, 2010, at 4:46 PM, Matt Warnock wrote:
>
>   
>> I have to agree with Ruth on this one.  The question is, what is the
>> OFBiz "community", is it users or developers?  The question has lots of
>> implications, and deserves careful thought.
>>
>> If venture capitalists (a community I know something about) are willing
>> to invest $3MM euro to increase OpenERP market share, then 1) they see a
>> product that can increase its revenues (and profits) by at least 10-100X
>> in the next 3-5 years, and 2) they see a path to liquidity (public
>> offering or sale), whereby they expect to recoup their investment.
>>
>> I agree with Jacques that OpenERP is an inferior solution.  Yet he loses
>> contracts to OpenERP.  Why?  Partly because OpenERP looks more polished
>> and finished, and appearances are in fact important.  However, the
>> bigger issue is that OpenERP is more user-friendly (meaning more
>> inviting to users, who are not developers).
>>
>> The general perception in the OFBiz community seems to be that if you
>> want an ERP solution, you will need to customize it.  For that, you need
>> a developer, and we are those developers.  So if you want an OFBiz
>> solution, pay us and we'll get you a custom OFBiz solution-- otherwise,
>> don't waste our time.  
>>
>> Sorry, but that attitude is ass-backwards.  You have the cart driving
>> the horse.  Even record and movie companies (the most ass-backward
>> marketing people on the planet) know that they don't get people to buy
>> records without radio play, or movie tickets without trailers.  Even
>> low-life drug dealers grasp the simple marketing concept of the "loss
>> leader"-- you can get more people using your product by giving it away
>> for free, initially.  In my business, we give away lots of free samples
>> because it it the best way to get people converted to our products.
>> People need to know up front what value they are going to get, and also
>> how much it is going to cost. 
>>
>> As an end-user with OpenERP, you get that information (I looked hard at
>> OpenERP a few months ago), but with OFBiz, you really don't.  You have
>> to look really hard (under the hood) to see the things that make OFBiz
>> better, and as developers, you probably all know what those advantages
>> are.  OFBiz's weaknesses, on the other hand, are right on the surface--
>> the very things that Ruth complains about.  
>>
>> Choosing any ERP solution is a hard, painful task, and the initial
>> difficulty of evaluating and customizing OFBiz makes it a harder choice
>> than most.  Inertia (personal and institutional) definitely works
>> against acceptance and adoption of OFBiz, initially.  
>>
>> If OFBiz had a polished, truly "OOTB" solution, then users could try it
>> and (hopefully) find it immediately useful, at least for some limited
>> applications.  Once the nose of the camel gets inside the tent, the rest
>> of the body will follow.  use breeds curiosity, and the incremental cost
>> (other than learning curve) of using more features and applications is
>> zero, so the learning process is encouraged.  Soon, the customer is
>> fully committed and using OFBiz for many things, but inevitably, there
>> are some customizations they would like to make.  Cha-ching!  Customers
>> create themselves.  Instead of a "missionary sale", you have more
>> customers than you can service, and they are looking for you, instead of
>> the reverse.
>>
>> That is the difference between OpenERP and OFBiz in a nutshell.  From a
>> user's perspective, OpenERP delivers benefits first and costs later,
>> while OFBiz demands costs up front and delivers the benefits later.
>> Which way do you think is the FASTEST path to a LARGE user community?
>> The venture capitalists have already cast THEIR vote.  
>>
>> On Wed, 2010-02-24 at 14:31 -0500, Ruth Hoffman wrote:
>>     
>>> Hi Anil:
>>> I'm sure this will start an avalanche of responses all directing vitriol 
>>> towards me. Rest assured I don't take any attacks personally:
>>>
>>> First off, IMHO, encouraging community contributions IS a problem for 
>>> OFBiz. The "community" as you so correctly point out is one of software 
>>> developers. There is much more to bringing a product to market, or more 
>>> importantly, surviving to play another day, than software development 
>>> and copious amounts of code contributed to a source code repository.
>>>
>>> Secondly, OFBiz will never survive, let alone grow, if there are no new 
>>> adopters (end-users, service providers or whatever you want to call 
>>> them). I further argue that the project won't get any new adopters by 
>>> sticking its collective head in the sand and ignoring real world issues 
>>> like release management, quality control and my favorite, documentation 
>>> and training.
>>>
>>> And to your point about selling "services". I'm curious. Since you 
>>> brought it up, what services does HotWax sell that help promote the 
>>> health and well being of the OFBiz project? Or is that not what you do? 
>>> Maybe I don't understand.
>>>
>>> Well I for one feel really comfortable saying that I sell a "product" 
>>> that helps promote the health and well being of OFBiz. Probably the only 
>>> one out there? Not only that, my product is reasonably priced to 
>>> encourage new OFBiz adopters. If you can afford to buy a week's worth of 
>>> Starbuck lattes, you can afford to purchase my product. Does that make 
>>> me a "Company" backing OFBiz? LOL!
>>>
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Ruth
>>>
>>> ----------------------------------------------------
>>> Find me on the web at http://www.myofbiz.com or Google keyword "myofbiz"
>>> ruth.hoffman@myofbiz.com
>>>
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Ruth
>>>
>>> Anil Patel wrote:
>>>       
>>>> Here is another blog http://news.cnet.com/8301-13505_3-10458449-16.html
>>>>
>>>> One interesting issue these Company driven projects are struggling (evedent from reading these blogs) with is, encourage community to contribute. In Ofbiz we don't have this issue, Ofbiz is build on the concept of "Community driven software development" 
>>>>
>>>> I feel confident that OfBiz will live longer and grow much more quickly then usual software open source software dragged by corporations. Ofbiz service providers can focus on their core activity "Sell services", and not really wonder around to get funding to keep project alive and moving.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks and Regards
>>>> Anil Patel
>>>> HotWax Media Inc
>>>> Find us on the web at www.hotwaxmedia.com or Google Keyword "ofbiz"
>>>>
>>>> On Feb 24, 2010, at 11:14 AM, Anil Patel wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>         
>>>>> Jacques,
>>>>> Why do you think so?
>>>>>
>>>>> It does not take too long to use 3M euros. And they are trying to make community contribution thing work for them, We got it working  for years.
>>>>>
>>>>> In case of OpenERP, One provider is dominating the community. In case of Apache Ofbiz we don't encourage that. Its up to providers to decide how they want to use OfBiz for building their business.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks and Regards
>>>>> Anil Patel
>>>>> HotWax Media Inc
>>>>> Find us on the web at www.hotwaxmedia.com or Google Keyword "ofbiz"
>>>>>
>>>>> On Feb 24, 2010, at 10:15 AM, Jacques Le Roux wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>           
>>>>>> Maybe the future of OFBiz in Europe (and even in USA it seems) will be harder...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://fptiny.blogspot.com/2010/02/openerp-raises-3-million-euros.html
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Or maybe this ERP will not be Open-Source longer in the future...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Actually it was the last of the Open-Source ERPs to not follow this way (though I"m not sure for ERP5)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The strategy : http://robertogaloppini.net/2009/06/01/open-source-business-strategy-openerp-and-long-term-sustainability/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Jacques
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>             
>>>>
>>>>         
>> -- 
>> Matt Warnock <mw...@ridgecrestherbals.com>
>> RidgeCrest Herbals, Inc.
>>
>>     
>
>
>   

Re: Was Community-Driven OFBiz a Mistake?

[Ruth Hoffman <rh...@aesolves.com>]

David E Jones wrote:
> Yes, the subtlety is very impressive. So much so that I can't find any sponsor links. Am I missing something?
>   
No. Look closer.
> Also, like Jacopo mentioned, DWR is not part of the Apache Software Foundation (is part of the Dojo Foundation), and has different guidelines and restrictions.
>
> Anyway, how is it that they have commercial sponsorship? If they do it is probably the same way that OFBiz has commercial sponsorship (ie by various companies contributing), and not like OpenERP, Compiere, SugarCRM and such where the code is owned and distributed through a single company.
>   
Your point is?
> So how is this an example of what OFBiz should do?
>
> Also, why compare OFBiz to DWR? How are the projects similar? The difference in magnitude, and there for the effort to build, maintain, test, release, document, etc is staggering.
>   
Really? How so? Each project has the same challenges: build, maintain, 
test, release, document.
> So, what was your point? The more I look at it the more I'm confused...
>   
Look again. Consider taking a more casual, relaxed attitude while 
browsing the site might help you to see what I see.
Ruth
> -David
>
>
> On Feb 25, 2010, at 11:22 AM, Ruth Hoffman wrote:
>
>   
>> Hi David:
>>
>> Glad you asked. I kind-of like how DWR has done it. Open source, Apache 2.0 with sponsor links very subtle. (http://directwebremoting.org/dwr/index.html)
>>
>> Just my opinion.
>> Ruth
>>
>> David E Jones wrote:
>>     
>>> How?
>>>
>>> -David
>>>
>>>
>>> On Feb 25, 2010, at 11:03 AM, Ruth Hoffman wrote:
>>>
>>>  
>>>       
>>>> David:
>>>> It doesn't have to be so "black" and "white". You can still have community driven software with the Apache license and enjoy sponsorship from commercial entities. It happens all the time.
>>>>
>>>> Ruth
>>>>
>>>> David E Jones wrote:
>>>>    
>>>>         
>>>>> Matt,
>>>>>
>>>>> You might be interested to hear that early in the life of OFBiz, and after technology investing recovered from the lull in 2000-2001, I was approached by a number of investors who wanted to turn OFBiz into a commercial open source project instead of a community-driven one (which would require a change in licensing to the GPL or something similar so that end-users would have an incentive to purchase licenses; would also require centralizing and/or license value added services instead of pushing for an open playing field). However, my intent from the beginning was to have OFBiz be a community-driven project so I stuck with that.
>>>>>
>>>>> Perhaps that was a mistake?
>>>>>
>>>>> About this comment: "So if you want an OFBiz solution, pay us and we'll get you a custom OFBiz solution-- otherwise, don't waste our time." That's pretty insulting and low-brow. If that were really the case then people who abandon other ERP software to work on OFBiz wouldn't be doing so because it is easier to customize... and yes, that is the main reason I hear from those experienced with other ERP software. Also, there would be no attempts whatsoever at documentation, and instead there are thousands of pages of it (in fact, probably too much for most people, making it harder to find the info they want, leading to complaints of no documentation when the fact is they just haven't bothered to read it).
>>>>>
>>>>> Take a look at the OFBiz service providers page and the PMC and committers page and see how much overlap there is between them. Here's the spoiler: there isn't much overlap at all. The vast majority of service providers never contribute back to the project. The vast majority of the business around OFBiz results in profit that contributors never see a penny of. If I were to estimate I'd say it's probably only 1-2% of the money that gets back to the smaller group that contributes 90% of the code. In other words, most of the customization work is done by people who don't contribute to the project, and who don't pay for training or any other sort of service. They figure it out on their own for the most part.
>>>>>
>>>>> On the other hand, if you think you can get my time for free just because I'm willing to share the intellectual property I create, then you're in for some big disappointment! And how could it be any other way?
>>>>>
>>>>> So here we go... we've got a community-driven project and people want it to be a commercial project. I've been pushing for years for community-driven software and trying to attract developers to help build this thing, and for some history about that and concepts related to it please see my blog:
>>>>>
>>>>> http://osofbiz.blogspot.com/
>>>>>
>>>>> There are a number of posts on this topic, and this one might be of particular interest:
>>>>>
>>>>> http://osofbiz.blogspot.com/2008/01/glass-cathedrals-and-community-versus.html
>>>>>
>>>>> So, this gets me back to the question I asked above... was all of this a mistake? Was I wrong about this approach? Is that the message I'm hearing more and more? Should I have gone the commercial route with the possibly higher pay out, and probably much cleaner and fancier looking resulting software, and significantly more marketing exposure, and at least being able to get the time of day from technology press folks?
>>>>>
>>>>> -David
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Feb 24, 2010, at 4:46 PM, Matt Warnock wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>       
>>>>>           
>>>>>> I have to agree with Ruth on this one.  The question is, what is the
>>>>>> OFBiz "community", is it users or developers?  The question has lots of
>>>>>> implications, and deserves careful thought.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If venture capitalists (a community I know something about) are willing
>>>>>> to invest $3MM euro to increase OpenERP market share, then 1) they see a
>>>>>> product that can increase its revenues (and profits) by at least 10-100X
>>>>>> in the next 3-5 years, and 2) they see a path to liquidity (public
>>>>>> offering or sale), whereby they expect to recoup their investment.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I agree with Jacques that OpenERP is an inferior solution.  Yet he loses
>>>>>> contracts to OpenERP.  Why?  Partly because OpenERP looks more polished
>>>>>> and finished, and appearances are in fact important.  However, the
>>>>>> bigger issue is that OpenERP is more user-friendly (meaning more
>>>>>> inviting to users, who are not developers).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The general perception in the OFBiz community seems to be that if you
>>>>>> want an ERP solution, you will need to customize it.  For that, you need
>>>>>> a developer, and we are those developers.  So if you want an OFBiz
>>>>>> solution, pay us and we'll get you a custom OFBiz solution-- otherwise,
>>>>>> don't waste our time.  Sorry, but that attitude is ass-backwards.  You have the cart driving
>>>>>> the horse.  Even record and movie companies (the most ass-backward
>>>>>> marketing people on the planet) know that they don't get people to buy
>>>>>> records without radio play, or movie tickets without trailers.  Even
>>>>>> low-life drug dealers grasp the simple marketing concept of the "loss
>>>>>> leader"-- you can get more people using your product by giving it away
>>>>>> for free, initially.  In my business, we give away lots of free samples
>>>>>> because it it the best way to get people converted to our products.
>>>>>> People need to know up front what value they are going to get, and also
>>>>>> how much it is going to cost. As an end-user with OpenERP, you get that information (I looked hard at
>>>>>> OpenERP a few months ago), but with OFBiz, you really don't.  You have
>>>>>> to look really hard (under the hood) to see the things that make OFBiz
>>>>>> better, and as developers, you probably all know what those advantages
>>>>>> are.  OFBiz's weaknesses, on the other hand, are right on the surface--
>>>>>> the very things that Ruth complains about.  Choosing any ERP solution is a hard, painful task, and the initial
>>>>>> difficulty of evaluating and customizing OFBiz makes it a harder choice
>>>>>> than most.  Inertia (personal and institutional) definitely works
>>>>>> against acceptance and adoption of OFBiz, initially.  If OFBiz had a polished, truly "OOTB" solution, then users could try it
>>>>>> and (hopefully) find it immediately useful, at least for some limited
>>>>>> applications.  Once the nose of the camel gets inside the tent, the rest
>>>>>> of the body will follow.  use breeds curiosity, and the incremental cost
>>>>>> (other than learning curve) of using more features and applications is
>>>>>> zero, so the learning process is encouraged.  Soon, the customer is
>>>>>> fully committed and using OFBiz for many things, but inevitably, there
>>>>>> are some customizations they would like to make.  Cha-ching!  Customers
>>>>>> create themselves.  Instead of a "missionary sale", you have more
>>>>>> customers than you can service, and they are looking for you, instead of
>>>>>> the reverse.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That is the difference between OpenERP and OFBiz in a nutshell.  From a
>>>>>> user's perspective, OpenERP delivers benefits first and costs later,
>>>>>> while OFBiz demands costs up front and delivers the benefits later.
>>>>>> Which way do you think is the FASTEST path to a LARGE user community?
>>>>>> The venture capitalists have already cast THEIR vote.  On Wed, 2010-02-24 at 14:31 -0500, Ruth Hoffman wrote:
>>>>>>           
>>>>>>             
>>>>>>> Hi Anil:
>>>>>>> I'm sure this will start an avalanche of responses all directing vitriol towards me. Rest assured I don't take any attacks personally:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> First off, IMHO, encouraging community contributions IS a problem for OFBiz. The "community" as you so correctly point out is one of software developers. There is much more to bringing a product to market, or more importantly, surviving to play another day, than software development and copious amounts of code contributed to a source code repository.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Secondly, OFBiz will never survive, let alone grow, if there are no new adopters (end-users, service providers or whatever you want to call them). I further argue that the project won't get any new adopters by sticking its collective head in the sand and ignoring real world issues like release management, quality control and my favorite, documentation and training.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And to your point about selling "services". I'm curious. Since you brought it up, what services does HotWax sell that help promote the health and well being of the OFBiz project? Or is that not what you do? Maybe I don't understand.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Well I for one feel really comfortable saying that I sell a "product" that helps promote the health and well being of OFBiz. Probably the only one out there? Not only that, my product is reasonably priced to encourage new OFBiz adopters. If you can afford to buy a week's worth of Starbuck lattes, you can afford to purchase my product. Does that make me a "Company" backing OFBiz? LOL!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>> Ruth
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>> Find me on the web at http://www.myofbiz.com or Google keyword "myofbiz"
>>>>>>> ruth.hoffman@myofbiz.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>> Ruth
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Anil Patel wrote:
>>>>>>>               
>>>>>>>               
>>>>>>>> Here is another blog http://news.cnet.com/8301-13505_3-10458449-16.html
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> One interesting issue these Company driven projects are struggling (evedent from reading these blogs) with is, encourage community to contribute. In Ofbiz we don't have this issue, Ofbiz is build on the concept of "Community driven software development" I feel confident that OfBiz will live longer and grow much more quickly then usual software open source software dragged by corporations. Ofbiz service providers can focus on their core activity "Sell services", and not really wonder around to get funding to keep project alive and moving.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Thanks and Regards
>>>>>>>> Anil Patel
>>>>>>>> HotWax Media Inc
>>>>>>>> Find us on the web at www.hotwaxmedia.com or Google Keyword "ofbiz"
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Feb 24, 2010, at 11:14 AM, Anil Patel wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>                   
>>>>>>>>                 
>>>>>>>>> Jacques,
>>>>>>>>> Why do you think so?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> It does not take too long to use 3M euros. And they are trying to make community contribution thing work for them, We got it working  for years.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> In case of OpenERP, One provider is dominating the community. In case of Apache Ofbiz we don't encourage that. Its up to providers to decide how they want to use OfBiz for building their business.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Thanks and Regards
>>>>>>>>> Anil Patel
>>>>>>>>> HotWax Media Inc
>>>>>>>>> Find us on the web at www.hotwaxmedia.com or Google Keyword "ofbiz"
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Feb 24, 2010, at 10:15 AM, Jacques Le Roux wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>                       
>>>>>>>>>                   
>>>>>>>>>> Maybe the future of OFBiz in Europe (and even in USA it seems) will be harder...
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> http://fptiny.blogspot.com/2010/02/openerp-raises-3-million-euros.html
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Or maybe this ERP will not be Open-Source longer in the future...
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Actually it was the last of the Open-Source ERPs to not follow this way (though I"m not sure for ERP5)
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The strategy : http://robertogaloppini.net/2009/06/01/open-source-business-strategy-openerp-and-long-term-sustainability/
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Jacques
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>                           
>>>>>>>>>>                     
>>>>>>>>                   
>>>>>>>>                 
>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>> Matt Warnock <mw...@ridgecrestherbals.com>
>>>>>> RidgeCrest Herbals, Inc.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>           
>>>>>>             
>>>>>       
>>>>>           
>>>  
>>>       
>
>
>   

Re: Was Community-Driven OFBiz a Mistake?

[Ruth Hoffman <rh...@aesolves.com>]

Maybe you meant this something like this?

http://directwebremoting.org/dwr/browser/tibco.html

BJ Freeman wrote:
> Ruth I am someone you have to hit over the head to get me to see something
> so if you could just link to what your refereeing to I might see it.
> I scan the home page and did not see anything.
>
> Ruth Hoffman sent the following on 2/25/2010 11:15 AM:
>   
>> David E Jones wrote:
>>     
>>> Yes, the subtlety is very impressive. So much so that I can't find any
>>> sponsor links. Am I missing something?
>>>   
>>>       
>> No. Look closer.
>>     
>>> Also, like Jacopo mentioned, DWR is not part of the Apache Software
>>> Foundation (is part of the Dojo Foundation), and has different
>>> guidelines and restrictions.
>>>
>>> Anyway, how is it that they have commercial sponsorship? If they do it
>>> is probably the same way that OFBiz has commercial sponsorship (ie by
>>> various companies contributing), and not like OpenERP, Compiere,
>>> SugarCRM and such where the code is owned and distributed through a
>>> single company.
>>>   
>>>       
>> Your point is?
>>     
>>> So how is this an example of what OFBiz should do?
>>>
>>> Also, why compare OFBiz to DWR? How are the projects similar? The
>>> difference in magnitude, and there for the effort to build, maintain,
>>> test, release, document, etc is staggering.
>>>   
>>>       
>> Really? How so? Each project has the same challenges: build, maintain,
>> test, release, document.
>>     
>>> So, what was your point? The more I look at it the more I'm confused...
>>>   
>>>       
>> Look again. Consider taking a more casual, relaxed attitude while
>> browsing the site might help you to see what I see.
>> Ruth
>>     
>>> -David
>>>
>>>
>>> On Feb 25, 2010, at 11:22 AM, Ruth Hoffman wrote:
>>>
>>>  
>>>       
>>>> Hi David:
>>>>
>>>> Glad you asked. I kind-of like how DWR has done it. Open source,
>>>> Apache 2.0 with sponsor links very subtle.
>>>> (http://directwebremoting.org/dwr/index.html)
>>>>
>>>> Just my opinion.
>>>> Ruth
>>>>
>>>> David E Jones wrote:
>>>>    
>>>>         
>>>>> How?
>>>>>
>>>>> -David
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Feb 25, 2010, at 11:03 AM, Ruth Hoffman wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>  
>>>>>      
>>>>>           
>>>>>> David:
>>>>>> It doesn't have to be so "black" and "white". You can still have
>>>>>> community driven software with the Apache license and enjoy
>>>>>> sponsorship from commercial entities. It happens all the time.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ruth
>>>>>>
>>>>>> David E Jones wrote:
>>>>>>           
>>>>>>             
>>>>>>> Matt,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You might be interested to hear that early in the life of OFBiz,
>>>>>>> and after technology investing recovered from the lull in
>>>>>>> 2000-2001, I was approached by a number of investors who wanted to
>>>>>>> turn OFBiz into a commercial open source project instead of a
>>>>>>> community-driven one (which would require a change in licensing to
>>>>>>> the GPL or something similar so that end-users would have an
>>>>>>> incentive to purchase licenses; would also require centralizing
>>>>>>> and/or license value added services instead of pushing for an open
>>>>>>> playing field). However, my intent from the beginning was to have
>>>>>>> OFBiz be a community-driven project so I stuck with that.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Perhaps that was a mistake?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> About this comment: "So if you want an OFBiz solution, pay us and
>>>>>>> we'll get you a custom OFBiz solution-- otherwise, don't waste our
>>>>>>> time." That's pretty insulting and low-brow. If that were really
>>>>>>> the case then people who abandon other ERP software to work on
>>>>>>> OFBiz wouldn't be doing so because it is easier to customize...
>>>>>>> and yes, that is the main reason I hear from those experienced
>>>>>>> with other ERP software. Also, there would be no attempts
>>>>>>> whatsoever at documentation, and instead there are thousands of
>>>>>>> pages of it (in fact, probably too much for most people, making it
>>>>>>> harder to find the info they want, leading to complaints of no
>>>>>>> documentation when the fact is they just haven't bothered to read
>>>>>>> it).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Take a look at the OFBiz service providers page and the PMC and
>>>>>>> committers page and see how much overlap there is between them.
>>>>>>> Here's the spoiler: there isn't much overlap at all. The vast
>>>>>>> majority of service providers never contribute back to the
>>>>>>> project. The vast majority of the business around OFBiz results in
>>>>>>> profit that contributors never see a penny of. If I were to
>>>>>>> estimate I'd say it's probably only 1-2% of the money that gets
>>>>>>> back to the smaller group that contributes 90% of the code. In
>>>>>>> other words, most of the customization work is done by people who
>>>>>>> don't contribute to the project, and who don't pay for training or
>>>>>>> any other sort of service. They figure it out on their own for the
>>>>>>> most part.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On the other hand, if you think you can get my time for free just
>>>>>>> because I'm willing to share the intellectual property I create,
>>>>>>> then you're in for some big disappointment! And how could it be
>>>>>>> any other way?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So here we go... we've got a community-driven project and people
>>>>>>> want it to be a commercial project. I've been pushing for years
>>>>>>> for community-driven software and trying to attract developers to
>>>>>>> help build this thing, and for some history about that and
>>>>>>> concepts related to it please see my blog:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://osofbiz.blogspot.com/
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There are a number of posts on this topic, and this one might be
>>>>>>> of particular interest:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://osofbiz.blogspot.com/2008/01/glass-cathedrals-and-community-versus.html
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So, this gets me back to the question I asked above... was all of
>>>>>>> this a mistake? Was I wrong about this approach? Is that the
>>>>>>> message I'm hearing more and more? Should I have gone the
>>>>>>> commercial route with the possibly higher pay out, and probably
>>>>>>> much cleaner and fancier looking resulting software, and
>>>>>>> significantly more marketing exposure, and at least being able to
>>>>>>> get the time of day from technology press folks?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -David
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Feb 24, 2010, at 4:46 PM, Matt Warnock wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>                
>>>>>>>               
>>>>>>>> I have to agree with Ruth on this one.  The question is, what is the
>>>>>>>> OFBiz "community", is it users or developers?  The question has
>>>>>>>> lots of
>>>>>>>> implications, and deserves careful thought.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If venture capitalists (a community I know something about) are
>>>>>>>> willing
>>>>>>>> to invest $3MM euro to increase OpenERP market share, then 1)
>>>>>>>> they see a
>>>>>>>> product that can increase its revenues (and profits) by at least
>>>>>>>> 10-100X
>>>>>>>> in the next 3-5 years, and 2) they see a path to liquidity (public
>>>>>>>> offering or sale), whereby they expect to recoup their investment.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I agree with Jacques that OpenERP is an inferior solution.  Yet
>>>>>>>> he loses
>>>>>>>> contracts to OpenERP.  Why?  Partly because OpenERP looks more
>>>>>>>> polished
>>>>>>>> and finished, and appearances are in fact important.  However, the
>>>>>>>> bigger issue is that OpenERP is more user-friendly (meaning more
>>>>>>>> inviting to users, who are not developers).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The general perception in the OFBiz community seems to be that if
>>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>>> want an ERP solution, you will need to customize it.  For that,
>>>>>>>> you need
>>>>>>>> a developer, and we are those developers.  So if you want an OFBiz
>>>>>>>> solution, pay us and we'll get you a custom OFBiz solution--
>>>>>>>> otherwise,
>>>>>>>> don't waste our time.  Sorry, but that attitude is
>>>>>>>> ass-backwards.  You have the cart driving
>>>>>>>> the horse.  Even record and movie companies (the most ass-backward
>>>>>>>> marketing people on the planet) know that they don't get people
>>>>>>>> to buy
>>>>>>>> records without radio play, or movie tickets without trailers.  Even
>>>>>>>> low-life drug dealers grasp the simple marketing concept of the
>>>>>>>> "loss
>>>>>>>> leader"-- you can get more people using your product by giving it
>>>>>>>> away
>>>>>>>> for free, initially.  In my business, we give away lots of free
>>>>>>>> samples
>>>>>>>> because it it the best way to get people converted to our products.
>>>>>>>> People need to know up front what value they are going to get,
>>>>>>>> and also
>>>>>>>> how much it is going to cost. As an end-user with OpenERP, you
>>>>>>>> get that information (I looked hard at
>>>>>>>> OpenERP a few months ago), but with OFBiz, you really don't.  You
>>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>>> to look really hard (under the hood) to see the things that make
>>>>>>>> OFBiz
>>>>>>>> better, and as developers, you probably all know what those
>>>>>>>> advantages
>>>>>>>> are.  OFBiz's weaknesses, on the other hand, are right on the
>>>>>>>> surface--
>>>>>>>> the very things that Ruth complains about.  Choosing any ERP
>>>>>>>> solution is a hard, painful task, and the initial
>>>>>>>> difficulty of evaluating and customizing OFBiz makes it a harder
>>>>>>>> choice
>>>>>>>> than most.  Inertia (personal and institutional) definitely works
>>>>>>>> against acceptance and adoption of OFBiz, initially.  If OFBiz
>>>>>>>> had a polished, truly "OOTB" solution, then users could try it
>>>>>>>> and (hopefully) find it immediately useful, at least for some
>>>>>>>> limited
>>>>>>>> applications.  Once the nose of the camel gets inside the tent,
>>>>>>>> the rest
>>>>>>>> of the body will follow.  use breeds curiosity, and the
>>>>>>>> incremental cost
>>>>>>>> (other than learning curve) of using more features and
>>>>>>>> applications is
>>>>>>>> zero, so the learning process is encouraged.  Soon, the customer is
>>>>>>>> fully committed and using OFBiz for many things, but inevitably,
>>>>>>>> there
>>>>>>>> are some customizations they would like to make.  Cha-ching! 
>>>>>>>> Customers
>>>>>>>> create themselves.  Instead of a "missionary sale", you have more
>>>>>>>> customers than you can service, and they are looking for you,
>>>>>>>> instead of
>>>>>>>> the reverse.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> That is the difference between OpenERP and OFBiz in a nutshell. 
>>>>>>>> From a
>>>>>>>> user's perspective, OpenERP delivers benefits first and costs later,
>>>>>>>> while OFBiz demands costs up front and delivers the benefits later.
>>>>>>>> Which way do you think is the FASTEST path to a LARGE user
>>>>>>>> community?
>>>>>>>> The venture capitalists have already cast THEIR vote.  On Wed,
>>>>>>>> 2010-02-24 at 14:31 -0500, Ruth Hoffman wrote:
>>>>>>>>                      
>>>>>>>>                 
>>>>>>>>> Hi Anil:
>>>>>>>>> I'm sure this will start an avalanche of responses all directing
>>>>>>>>> vitriol towards me. Rest assured I don't take any attacks
>>>>>>>>> personally:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> First off, IMHO, encouraging community contributions IS a
>>>>>>>>> problem for OFBiz. The "community" as you so correctly point out
>>>>>>>>> is one of software developers. There is much more to bringing a
>>>>>>>>> product to market, or more importantly, surviving to play
>>>>>>>>> another day, than software development and copious amounts of
>>>>>>>>> code contributed to a source code repository.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Secondly, OFBiz will never survive, let alone grow, if there are
>>>>>>>>> no new adopters (end-users, service providers or whatever you
>>>>>>>>> want to call them). I further argue that the project won't get
>>>>>>>>> any new adopters by sticking its collective head in the sand and
>>>>>>>>> ignoring real world issues like release management, quality
>>>>>>>>> control and my favorite, documentation and training.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> And to your point about selling "services". I'm curious. Since
>>>>>>>>> you brought it up, what services does HotWax sell that help
>>>>>>>>> promote the health and well being of the OFBiz project? Or is
>>>>>>>>> that not what you do? Maybe I don't understand.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Well I for one feel really comfortable saying that I sell a
>>>>>>>>> "product" that helps promote the health and well being of OFBiz.
>>>>>>>>> Probably the only one out there? Not only that, my product is
>>>>>>>>> reasonably priced to encourage new OFBiz adopters. If you can
>>>>>>>>> afford to buy a week's worth of Starbuck lattes, you can afford
>>>>>>>>> to purchase my product. Does that make me a "Company" backing
>>>>>>>>> OFBiz? LOL!
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>>> Ruth
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>> Find me on the web at http://www.myofbiz.com or Google keyword
>>>>>>>>> "myofbiz"
>>>>>>>>> ruth.hoffman@myofbiz.com
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>>> Ruth
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Anil Patel wrote:
>>>>>>>>>                            
>>>>>>>>>                   
>>>>>>>>>> Here is another blog
>>>>>>>>>> http://news.cnet.com/8301-13505_3-10458449-16.html
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> One interesting issue these Company driven projects are
>>>>>>>>>> struggling (evedent from reading these blogs) with is,
>>>>>>>>>> encourage community to contribute. In Ofbiz we don't have this
>>>>>>>>>> issue, Ofbiz is build on the concept of "Community driven
>>>>>>>>>> software development" I feel confident that OfBiz will live
>>>>>>>>>> longer and grow much more quickly then usual software open
>>>>>>>>>> source software dragged by corporations. Ofbiz service
>>>>>>>>>> providers can focus on their core activity "Sell services", and
>>>>>>>>>> not really wonder around to get funding to keep project alive
>>>>>>>>>> and moving.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Thanks and Regards
>>>>>>>>>> Anil Patel
>>>>>>>>>> HotWax Media Inc
>>>>>>>>>> Find us on the web at www.hotwaxmedia.com or Google Keyword
>>>>>>>>>> "ofbiz"
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Feb 24, 2010, at 11:14 AM, Anil Patel wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>                                  
>>>>>>>>>>                     
>>>>>>>>>>> Jacques,
>>>>>>>>>>> Why do you think so?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> It does not take too long to use 3M euros. And they are trying
>>>>>>>>>>> to make community contribution thing work for them, We got it
>>>>>>>>>>> working  for years.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> In case of OpenERP, One provider is dominating the community.
>>>>>>>>>>> In case of Apache Ofbiz we don't encourage that. Its up to
>>>>>>>>>>> providers to decide how they want to use OfBiz for building
>>>>>>>>>>> their business.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks and Regards
>>>>>>>>>>> Anil Patel
>>>>>>>>>>> HotWax Media Inc
>>>>>>>>>>> Find us on the web at www.hotwaxmedia.com or Google Keyword
>>>>>>>>>>> "ofbiz"
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Feb 24, 2010, at 10:15 AM, Jacques Le Roux wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>                                        
>>>>>>>>>>>                       
>>>>>>>>>>>> Maybe the future of OFBiz in Europe (and even in USA it
>>>>>>>>>>>> seems) will be harder...
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://fptiny.blogspot.com/2010/02/openerp-raises-3-million-euros.html
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Or maybe this ERP will not be Open-Source longer in the
>>>>>>>>>>>> future...
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Actually it was the last of the Open-Source ERPs to not
>>>>>>>>>>>> follow this way (though I"m not sure for ERP5)
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> The strategy :
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://robertogaloppini.net/2009/06/01/open-source-business-strategy-openerp-and-long-term-sustainability/
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Jacques
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>                                               
>>>>>>>>>>>>                         
>>>>>>>>>>                                   
>>>>>>>>>>                     
>>>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>>>> Matt Warnock <mw...@ridgecrestherbals.com>
>>>>>>>> RidgeCrest Herbals, Inc.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>                       
>>>>>>>>                 
>>>>>>>                 
>>>>>>>               
>>>>>  
>>>>>       
>>>>>           
>>>   
>>>       
>
>
>   

Re: Was Community-Driven OFBiz a Mistake?

[Ruth Hoffman <rh...@aesolves.com>]

Hi BJ:

Of couse.Sorry.

http://directwebremoting.org/dwr/index.html

At various times, this project has had support from Sabre (the airlines 
consortium), Tibco and maybe some others. They do a really good job of 
keeping all that out of sight.

Ruth

BJ Freeman wrote:
> Ruth I am someone you have to hit over the head to get me to see something
> so if you could just link to what your refereeing to I might see it.
> I scan the home page and did not see anything.
>
> Ruth Hoffman sent the following on 2/25/2010 11:15 AM:
>   
>> David E Jones wrote:
>>     
>>> Yes, the subtlety is very impressive. So much so that I can't find any
>>> sponsor links. Am I missing something?
>>>   
>>>       
>> No. Look closer.
>>     
>>> Also, like Jacopo mentioned, DWR is not part of the Apache Software
>>> Foundation (is part of the Dojo Foundation), and has different
>>> guidelines and restrictions.
>>>
>>> Anyway, how is it that they have commercial sponsorship? If they do it
>>> is probably the same way that OFBiz has commercial sponsorship (ie by
>>> various companies contributing), and not like OpenERP, Compiere,
>>> SugarCRM and such where the code is owned and distributed through a
>>> single company.
>>>   
>>>       
>> Your point is?
>>     
>>> So how is this an example of what OFBiz should do?
>>>
>>> Also, why compare OFBiz to DWR? How are the projects similar? The
>>> difference in magnitude, and there for the effort to build, maintain,
>>> test, release, document, etc is staggering.
>>>   
>>>       
>> Really? How so? Each project has the same challenges: build, maintain,
>> test, release, document.
>>     
>>> So, what was your point? The more I look at it the more I'm confused...
>>>   
>>>       
>> Look again. Consider taking a more casual, relaxed attitude while
>> browsing the site might help you to see what I see.
>> Ruth
>>     
>>> -David
>>>
>>>
>>> On Feb 25, 2010, at 11:22 AM, Ruth Hoffman wrote:
>>>
>>>  
>>>       
>>>> Hi David:
>>>>
>>>> Glad you asked. I kind-of like how DWR has done it. Open source,
>>>> Apache 2.0 with sponsor links very subtle.
>>>> (http://directwebremoting.org/dwr/index.html)
>>>>
>>>> Just my opinion.
>>>> Ruth
>>>>
>>>> David E Jones wrote:
>>>>    
>>>>         
>>>>> How?
>>>>>
>>>>> -David
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Feb 25, 2010, at 11:03 AM, Ruth Hoffman wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>  
>>>>>      
>>>>>           
>>>>>> David:
>>>>>> It doesn't have to be so "black" and "white". You can still have
>>>>>> community driven software with the Apache license and enjoy
>>>>>> sponsorship from commercial entities. It happens all the time.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ruth
>>>>>>
>>>>>> David E Jones wrote:
>>>>>>           
>>>>>>             
>>>>>>> Matt,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You might be interested to hear that early in the life of OFBiz,
>>>>>>> and after technology investing recovered from the lull in
>>>>>>> 2000-2001, I was approached by a number of investors who wanted to
>>>>>>> turn OFBiz into a commercial open source project instead of a
>>>>>>> community-driven one (which would require a change in licensing to
>>>>>>> the GPL or something similar so that end-users would have an
>>>>>>> incentive to purchase licenses; would also require centralizing
>>>>>>> and/or license value added services instead of pushing for an open
>>>>>>> playing field). However, my intent from the beginning was to have
>>>>>>> OFBiz be a community-driven project so I stuck with that.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Perhaps that was a mistake?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> About this comment: "So if you want an OFBiz solution, pay us and
>>>>>>> we'll get you a custom OFBiz solution-- otherwise, don't waste our
>>>>>>> time." That's pretty insulting and low-brow. If that were really
>>>>>>> the case then people who abandon other ERP software to work on
>>>>>>> OFBiz wouldn't be doing so because it is easier to customize...
>>>>>>> and yes, that is the main reason I hear from those experienced
>>>>>>> with other ERP software. Also, there would be no attempts
>>>>>>> whatsoever at documentation, and instead there are thousands of
>>>>>>> pages of it (in fact, probably too much for most people, making it
>>>>>>> harder to find the info they want, leading to complaints of no
>>>>>>> documentation when the fact is they just haven't bothered to read
>>>>>>> it).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Take a look at the OFBiz service providers page and the PMC and
>>>>>>> committers page and see how much overlap there is between them.
>>>>>>> Here's the spoiler: there isn't much overlap at all. The vast
>>>>>>> majority of service providers never contribute back to the
>>>>>>> project. The vast majority of the business around OFBiz results in
>>>>>>> profit that contributors never see a penny of. If I were to
>>>>>>> estimate I'd say it's probably only 1-2% of the money that gets
>>>>>>> back to the smaller group that contributes 90% of the code. In
>>>>>>> other words, most of the customization work is done by people who
>>>>>>> don't contribute to the project, and who don't pay for training or
>>>>>>> any other sort of service. They figure it out on their own for the
>>>>>>> most part.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On the other hand, if you think you can get my time for free just
>>>>>>> because I'm willing to share the intellectual property I create,
>>>>>>> then you're in for some big disappointment! And how could it be
>>>>>>> any other way?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So here we go... we've got a community-driven project and people
>>>>>>> want it to be a commercial project. I've been pushing for years
>>>>>>> for community-driven software and trying to attract developers to
>>>>>>> help build this thing, and for some history about that and
>>>>>>> concepts related to it please see my blog:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://osofbiz.blogspot.com/
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There are a number of posts on this topic, and this one might be
>>>>>>> of particular interest:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://osofbiz.blogspot.com/2008/01/glass-cathedrals-and-community-versus.html
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So, this gets me back to the question I asked above... was all of
>>>>>>> this a mistake? Was I wrong about this approach? Is that the
>>>>>>> message I'm hearing more and more? Should I have gone the
>>>>>>> commercial route with the possibly higher pay out, and probably
>>>>>>> much cleaner and fancier looking resulting software, and
>>>>>>> significantly more marketing exposure, and at least being able to
>>>>>>> get the time of day from technology press folks?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -David
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Feb 24, 2010, at 4:46 PM, Matt Warnock wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>                
>>>>>>>               
>>>>>>>> I have to agree with Ruth on this one.  The question is, what is the
>>>>>>>> OFBiz "community", is it users or developers?  The question has
>>>>>>>> lots of
>>>>>>>> implications, and deserves careful thought.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If venture capitalists (a community I know something about) are
>>>>>>>> willing
>>>>>>>> to invest $3MM euro to increase OpenERP market share, then 1)
>>>>>>>> they see a
>>>>>>>> product that can increase its revenues (and profits) by at least
>>>>>>>> 10-100X
>>>>>>>> in the next 3-5 years, and 2) they see a path to liquidity (public
>>>>>>>> offering or sale), whereby they expect to recoup their investment.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I agree with Jacques that OpenERP is an inferior solution.  Yet
>>>>>>>> he loses
>>>>>>>> contracts to OpenERP.  Why?  Partly because OpenERP looks more
>>>>>>>> polished
>>>>>>>> and finished, and appearances are in fact important.  However, the
>>>>>>>> bigger issue is that OpenERP is more user-friendly (meaning more
>>>>>>>> inviting to users, who are not developers).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The general perception in the OFBiz community seems to be that if
>>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>>> want an ERP solution, you will need to customize it.  For that,
>>>>>>>> you need
>>>>>>>> a developer, and we are those developers.  So if you want an OFBiz
>>>>>>>> solution, pay us and we'll get you a custom OFBiz solution--
>>>>>>>> otherwise,
>>>>>>>> don't waste our time.  Sorry, but that attitude is
>>>>>>>> ass-backwards.  You have the cart driving
>>>>>>>> the horse.  Even record and movie companies (the most ass-backward
>>>>>>>> marketing people on the planet) know that they don't get people
>>>>>>>> to buy
>>>>>>>> records without radio play, or movie tickets without trailers.  Even
>>>>>>>> low-life drug dealers grasp the simple marketing concept of the
>>>>>>>> "loss
>>>>>>>> leader"-- you can get more people using your product by giving it
>>>>>>>> away
>>>>>>>> for free, initially.  In my business, we give away lots of free
>>>>>>>> samples
>>>>>>>> because it it the best way to get people converted to our products.
>>>>>>>> People need to know up front what value they are going to get,
>>>>>>>> and also
>>>>>>>> how much it is going to cost. As an end-user with OpenERP, you
>>>>>>>> get that information (I looked hard at
>>>>>>>> OpenERP a few months ago), but with OFBiz, you really don't.  You
>>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>>> to look really hard (under the hood) to see the things that make
>>>>>>>> OFBiz
>>>>>>>> better, and as developers, you probably all know what those
>>>>>>>> advantages
>>>>>>>> are.  OFBiz's weaknesses, on the other hand, are right on the
>>>>>>>> surface--
>>>>>>>> the very things that Ruth complains about.  Choosing any ERP
>>>>>>>> solution is a hard, painful task, and the initial
>>>>>>>> difficulty of evaluating and customizing OFBiz makes it a harder
>>>>>>>> choice
>>>>>>>> than most.  Inertia (personal and institutional) definitely works
>>>>>>>> against acceptance and adoption of OFBiz, initially.  If OFBiz
>>>>>>>> had a polished, truly "OOTB" solution, then users could try it
>>>>>>>> and (hopefully) find it immediately useful, at least for some
>>>>>>>> limited
>>>>>>>> applications.  Once the nose of the camel gets inside the tent,
>>>>>>>> the rest
>>>>>>>> of the body will follow.  use breeds curiosity, and the
>>>>>>>> incremental cost
>>>>>>>> (other than learning curve) of using more features and
>>>>>>>> applications is
>>>>>>>> zero, so the learning process is encouraged.  Soon, the customer is
>>>>>>>> fully committed and using OFBiz for many things, but inevitably,
>>>>>>>> there
>>>>>>>> are some customizations they would like to make.  Cha-ching! 
>>>>>>>> Customers
>>>>>>>> create themselves.  Instead of a "missionary sale", you have more
>>>>>>>> customers than you can service, and they are looking for you,
>>>>>>>> instead of
>>>>>>>> the reverse.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> That is the difference between OpenERP and OFBiz in a nutshell. 
>>>>>>>> From a
>>>>>>>> user's perspective, OpenERP delivers benefits first and costs later,
>>>>>>>> while OFBiz demands costs up front and delivers the benefits later.
>>>>>>>> Which way do you think is the FASTEST path to a LARGE user
>>>>>>>> community?
>>>>>>>> The venture capitalists have already cast THEIR vote.  On Wed,
>>>>>>>> 2010-02-24 at 14:31 -0500, Ruth Hoffman wrote:
>>>>>>>>                      
>>>>>>>>                 
>>>>>>>>> Hi Anil:
>>>>>>>>> I'm sure this will start an avalanche of responses all directing
>>>>>>>>> vitriol towards me. Rest assured I don't take any attacks
>>>>>>>>> personally:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> First off, IMHO, encouraging community contributions IS a
>>>>>>>>> problem for OFBiz. The "community" as you so correctly point out
>>>>>>>>> is one of software developers. There is much more to bringing a
>>>>>>>>> product to market, or more importantly, surviving to play
>>>>>>>>> another day, than software development and copious amounts of
>>>>>>>>> code contributed to a source code repository.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Secondly, OFBiz will never survive, let alone grow, if there are
>>>>>>>>> no new adopters (end-users, service providers or whatever you
>>>>>>>>> want to call them). I further argue that the project won't get
>>>>>>>>> any new adopters by sticking its collective head in the sand and
>>>>>>>>> ignoring real world issues like release management, quality
>>>>>>>>> control and my favorite, documentation and training.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> And to your point about selling "services". I'm curious. Since
>>>>>>>>> you brought it up, what services does HotWax sell that help
>>>>>>>>> promote the health and well being of the OFBiz project? Or is
>>>>>>>>> that not what you do? Maybe I don't understand.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Well I for one feel really comfortable saying that I sell a
>>>>>>>>> "product" that helps promote the health and well being of OFBiz.
>>>>>>>>> Probably the only one out there? Not only that, my product is
>>>>>>>>> reasonably priced to encourage new OFBiz adopters. If you can
>>>>>>>>> afford to buy a week's worth of Starbuck lattes, you can afford
>>>>>>>>> to purchase my product. Does that make me a "Company" backing
>>>>>>>>> OFBiz? LOL!
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>>> Ruth
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>> Find me on the web at http://www.myofbiz.com or Google keyword
>>>>>>>>> "myofbiz"
>>>>>>>>> ruth.hoffman@myofbiz.com
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>>> Ruth
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Anil Patel wrote:
>>>>>>>>>                            
>>>>>>>>>                   
>>>>>>>>>> Here is another blog
>>>>>>>>>> http://news.cnet.com/8301-13505_3-10458449-16.html
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> One interesting issue these Company driven projects are
>>>>>>>>>> struggling (evedent from reading these blogs) with is,
>>>>>>>>>> encourage community to contribute. In Ofbiz we don't have this
>>>>>>>>>> issue, Ofbiz is build on the concept of "Community driven
>>>>>>>>>> software development" I feel confident that OfBiz will live
>>>>>>>>>> longer and grow much more quickly then usual software open
>>>>>>>>>> source software dragged by corporations. Ofbiz service
>>>>>>>>>> providers can focus on their core activity "Sell services", and
>>>>>>>>>> not really wonder around to get funding to keep project alive
>>>>>>>>>> and moving.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Thanks and Regards
>>>>>>>>>> Anil Patel
>>>>>>>>>> HotWax Media Inc
>>>>>>>>>> Find us on the web at www.hotwaxmedia.com or Google Keyword
>>>>>>>>>> "ofbiz"
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Feb 24, 2010, at 11:14 AM, Anil Patel wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>                                  
>>>>>>>>>>                     
>>>>>>>>>>> Jacques,
>>>>>>>>>>> Why do you think so?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> It does not take too long to use 3M euros. And they are trying
>>>>>>>>>>> to make community contribution thing work for them, We got it
>>>>>>>>>>> working  for years.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> In case of OpenERP, One provider is dominating the community.
>>>>>>>>>>> In case of Apache Ofbiz we don't encourage that. Its up to
>>>>>>>>>>> providers to decide how they want to use OfBiz for building
>>>>>>>>>>> their business.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks and Regards
>>>>>>>>>>> Anil Patel
>>>>>>>>>>> HotWax Media Inc
>>>>>>>>>>> Find us on the web at www.hotwaxmedia.com or Google Keyword
>>>>>>>>>>> "ofbiz"
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Feb 24, 2010, at 10:15 AM, Jacques Le Roux wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>                                        
>>>>>>>>>>>                       
>>>>>>>>>>>> Maybe the future of OFBiz in Europe (and even in USA it
>>>>>>>>>>>> seems) will be harder...
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://fptiny.blogspot.com/2010/02/openerp-raises-3-million-euros.html
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Or maybe this ERP will not be Open-Source longer in the
>>>>>>>>>>>> future...
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Actually it was the last of the Open-Source ERPs to not
>>>>>>>>>>>> follow this way (though I"m not sure for ERP5)
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> The strategy :
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://robertogaloppini.net/2009/06/01/open-source-business-strategy-openerp-and-long-term-sustainability/
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Jacques
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>                                               
>>>>>>>>>>>>                         
>>>>>>>>>>                                   
>>>>>>>>>>                     
>>>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>>>> Matt Warnock <mw...@ridgecrestherbals.com>
>>>>>>>> RidgeCrest Herbals, Inc.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>                       
>>>>>>>>                 
>>>>>>>                 
>>>>>>>               
>>>>>  
>>>>>       
>>>>>           
>>>   
>>>       
>
>
>   

Re: Was Community-Driven OFBiz a Mistake?

[Ruth Hoffman <rh...@aesolves.com>]

OOps. How could I miss that?
Ruth

Jacques Le Roux wrote:
> Google => site:directwebremoting.org sponsor
>
> Jacques
>
> From: "BJ Freeman" <bj...@free-man.net>
>> Ruth I am someone you have to hit over the head to get me to see 
>> something
>> so if you could just link to what your refereeing to I might see it.
>> I scan the home page and did not see anything.
>>
>> Ruth Hoffman sent the following on 2/25/2010 11:15 AM:
>>>
>>>
>>> David E Jones wrote:
>>>> Yes, the subtlety is very impressive. So much so that I can't find any
>>>> sponsor links. Am I missing something?
>>>>   
>>> No. Look closer.
>>>> Also, like Jacopo mentioned, DWR is not part of the Apache Software
>>>> Foundation (is part of the Dojo Foundation), and has different
>>>> guidelines and restrictions.
>>>>
>>>> Anyway, how is it that they have commercial sponsorship? If they do it
>>>> is probably the same way that OFBiz has commercial sponsorship (ie by
>>>> various companies contributing), and not like OpenERP, Compiere,
>>>> SugarCRM and such where the code is owned and distributed through a
>>>> single company.
>>>>   
>>> Your point is?
>>>> So how is this an example of what OFBiz should do?
>>>>
>>>> Also, why compare OFBiz to DWR? How are the projects similar? The
>>>> difference in magnitude, and there for the effort to build, maintain,
>>>> test, release, document, etc is staggering.
>>>>   
>>> Really? How so? Each project has the same challenges: build, maintain,
>>> test, release, document.
>>>> So, what was your point? The more I look at it the more I'm 
>>>> confused...
>>>>   
>>> Look again. Consider taking a more casual, relaxed attitude while
>>> browsing the site might help you to see what I see.
>>> Ruth
>>>> -David
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Feb 25, 2010, at 11:22 AM, Ruth Hoffman wrote:
>>>>
>>>>  
>>>>> Hi David:
>>>>>
>>>>> Glad you asked. I kind-of like how DWR has done it. Open source,
>>>>> Apache 2.0 with sponsor links very subtle.
>>>>> (http://directwebremoting.org/dwr/index.html)
>>>>>
>>>>> Just my opinion.
>>>>> Ruth
>>>>>
>>>>> David E Jones wrote:
>>>>>   
>>>>>> How?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -David
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Feb 25, 2010, at 11:03 AM, Ruth Hoffman wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  
>>>>>>     
>>>>>>> David:
>>>>>>> It doesn't have to be so "black" and "white". You can still have
>>>>>>> community driven software with the Apache license and enjoy
>>>>>>> sponsorship from commercial entities. It happens all the time.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Ruth
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> David E Jones wrote:
>>>>>>>          
>>>>>>>> Matt,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> You might be interested to hear that early in the life of OFBiz,
>>>>>>>> and after technology investing recovered from the lull in
>>>>>>>> 2000-2001, I was approached by a number of investors who wanted to
>>>>>>>> turn OFBiz into a commercial open source project instead of a
>>>>>>>> community-driven one (which would require a change in licensing to
>>>>>>>> the GPL or something similar so that end-users would have an
>>>>>>>> incentive to purchase licenses; would also require centralizing
>>>>>>>> and/or license value added services instead of pushing for an open
>>>>>>>> playing field). However, my intent from the beginning was to have
>>>>>>>> OFBiz be a community-driven project so I stuck with that.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Perhaps that was a mistake?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> About this comment: "So if you want an OFBiz solution, pay us and
>>>>>>>> we'll get you a custom OFBiz solution-- otherwise, don't waste our
>>>>>>>> time." That's pretty insulting and low-brow. If that were really
>>>>>>>> the case then people who abandon other ERP software to work on
>>>>>>>> OFBiz wouldn't be doing so because it is easier to customize...
>>>>>>>> and yes, that is the main reason I hear from those experienced
>>>>>>>> with other ERP software. Also, there would be no attempts
>>>>>>>> whatsoever at documentation, and instead there are thousands of
>>>>>>>> pages of it (in fact, probably too much for most people, making it
>>>>>>>> harder to find the info they want, leading to complaints of no
>>>>>>>> documentation when the fact is they just haven't bothered to read
>>>>>>>> it).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Take a look at the OFBiz service providers page and the PMC and
>>>>>>>> committers page and see how much overlap there is between them.
>>>>>>>> Here's the spoiler: there isn't much overlap at all. The vast
>>>>>>>> majority of service providers never contribute back to the
>>>>>>>> project. The vast majority of the business around OFBiz results in
>>>>>>>> profit that contributors never see a penny of. If I were to
>>>>>>>> estimate I'd say it's probably only 1-2% of the money that gets
>>>>>>>> back to the smaller group that contributes 90% of the code. In
>>>>>>>> other words, most of the customization work is done by people who
>>>>>>>> don't contribute to the project, and who don't pay for training or
>>>>>>>> any other sort of service. They figure it out on their own for the
>>>>>>>> most part.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On the other hand, if you think you can get my time for free just
>>>>>>>> because I'm willing to share the intellectual property I create,
>>>>>>>> then you're in for some big disappointment! And how could it be
>>>>>>>> any other way?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> So here we go... we've got a community-driven project and people
>>>>>>>> want it to be a commercial project. I've been pushing for years
>>>>>>>> for community-driven software and trying to attract developers to
>>>>>>>> help build this thing, and for some history about that and
>>>>>>>> concepts related to it please see my blog:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> http://osofbiz.blogspot.com/
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> There are a number of posts on this topic, and this one might be
>>>>>>>> of particular interest:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> http://osofbiz.blogspot.com/2008/01/glass-cathedrals-and-community-versus.html 
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> So, this gets me back to the question I asked above... was all of
>>>>>>>> this a mistake? Was I wrong about this approach? Is that the
>>>>>>>> message I'm hearing more and more? Should I have gone the
>>>>>>>> commercial route with the possibly higher pay out, and probably
>>>>>>>> much cleaner and fancier looking resulting software, and
>>>>>>>> significantly more marketing exposure, and at least being able to
>>>>>>>> get the time of day from technology press folks?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -David
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Feb 24, 2010, at 4:46 PM, Matt Warnock wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>               
>>>>>>>>> I have to agree with Ruth on this one.  The question is, what 
>>>>>>>>> is the
>>>>>>>>> OFBiz "community", is it users or developers?  The question has
>>>>>>>>> lots of
>>>>>>>>> implications, and deserves careful thought.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> If venture capitalists (a community I know something about) are
>>>>>>>>> willing
>>>>>>>>> to invest $3MM euro to increase OpenERP market share, then 1)
>>>>>>>>> they see a
>>>>>>>>> product that can increase its revenues (and profits) by at least
>>>>>>>>> 10-100X
>>>>>>>>> in the next 3-5 years, and 2) they see a path to liquidity 
>>>>>>>>> (public
>>>>>>>>> offering or sale), whereby they expect to recoup their 
>>>>>>>>> investment.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I agree with Jacques that OpenERP is an inferior solution.  Yet
>>>>>>>>> he loses
>>>>>>>>> contracts to OpenERP.  Why?  Partly because OpenERP looks more
>>>>>>>>> polished
>>>>>>>>> and finished, and appearances are in fact important.  However, 
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> bigger issue is that OpenERP is more user-friendly (meaning more
>>>>>>>>> inviting to users, who are not developers).
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The general perception in the OFBiz community seems to be that if
>>>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>>>> want an ERP solution, you will need to customize it.  For that,
>>>>>>>>> you need
>>>>>>>>> a developer, and we are those developers.  So if you want an 
>>>>>>>>> OFBiz
>>>>>>>>> solution, pay us and we'll get you a custom OFBiz solution--
>>>>>>>>> otherwise,
>>>>>>>>> don't waste our time.  Sorry, but that attitude is
>>>>>>>>> ass-backwards.  You have the cart driving
>>>>>>>>> the horse.  Even record and movie companies (the most 
>>>>>>>>> ass-backward
>>>>>>>>> marketing people on the planet) know that they don't get people
>>>>>>>>> to buy
>>>>>>>>> records without radio play, or movie tickets without 
>>>>>>>>> trailers.  Even
>>>>>>>>> low-life drug dealers grasp the simple marketing concept of the
>>>>>>>>> "loss
>>>>>>>>> leader"-- you can get more people using your product by giving it
>>>>>>>>> away
>>>>>>>>> for free, initially.  In my business, we give away lots of free
>>>>>>>>> samples
>>>>>>>>> because it it the best way to get people converted to our 
>>>>>>>>> products.
>>>>>>>>> People need to know up front what value they are going to get,
>>>>>>>>> and also
>>>>>>>>> how much it is going to cost. As an end-user with OpenERP, you
>>>>>>>>> get that information (I looked hard at
>>>>>>>>> OpenERP a few months ago), but with OFBiz, you really don't.  You
>>>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>>>> to look really hard (under the hood) to see the things that make
>>>>>>>>> OFBiz
>>>>>>>>> better, and as developers, you probably all know what those
>>>>>>>>> advantages
>>>>>>>>> are.  OFBiz's weaknesses, on the other hand, are right on the
>>>>>>>>> surface--
>>>>>>>>> the very things that Ruth complains about.  Choosing any ERP
>>>>>>>>> solution is a hard, painful task, and the initial
>>>>>>>>> difficulty of evaluating and customizing OFBiz makes it a harder
>>>>>>>>> choice
>>>>>>>>> than most.  Inertia (personal and institutional) definitely works
>>>>>>>>> against acceptance and adoption of OFBiz, initially.  If OFBiz
>>>>>>>>> had a polished, truly "OOTB" solution, then users could try it
>>>>>>>>> and (hopefully) find it immediately useful, at least for some
>>>>>>>>> limited
>>>>>>>>> applications.  Once the nose of the camel gets inside the tent,
>>>>>>>>> the rest
>>>>>>>>> of the body will follow.  use breeds curiosity, and the
>>>>>>>>> incremental cost
>>>>>>>>> (other than learning curve) of using more features and
>>>>>>>>> applications is
>>>>>>>>> zero, so the learning process is encouraged.  Soon, the 
>>>>>>>>> customer is
>>>>>>>>> fully committed and using OFBiz for many things, but inevitably,
>>>>>>>>> there
>>>>>>>>> are some customizations they would like to make.  Cha-ching! 
>>>>>>>>> Customers
>>>>>>>>> create themselves.  Instead of a "missionary sale", you have more
>>>>>>>>> customers than you can service, and they are looking for you,
>>>>>>>>> instead of
>>>>>>>>> the reverse.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> That is the difference between OpenERP and OFBiz in a 
>>>>>>>>> nutshell. From a
>>>>>>>>> user's perspective, OpenERP delivers benefits first and costs 
>>>>>>>>> later,
>>>>>>>>> while OFBiz demands costs up front and delivers the benefits 
>>>>>>>>> later.
>>>>>>>>> Which way do you think is the FASTEST path to a LARGE user
>>>>>>>>> community?
>>>>>>>>> The venture capitalists have already cast THEIR vote.  On Wed,
>>>>>>>>> 2010-02-24 at 14:31 -0500, Ruth Hoffman wrote:
>>>>>>>>>                     
>>>>>>>>>> Hi Anil:
>>>>>>>>>> I'm sure this will start an avalanche of responses all directing
>>>>>>>>>> vitriol towards me. Rest assured I don't take any attacks
>>>>>>>>>> personally:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> First off, IMHO, encouraging community contributions IS a
>>>>>>>>>> problem for OFBiz. The "community" as you so correctly point out
>>>>>>>>>> is one of software developers. There is much more to bringing a
>>>>>>>>>> product to market, or more importantly, surviving to play
>>>>>>>>>> another day, than software development and copious amounts of
>>>>>>>>>> code contributed to a source code repository.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Secondly, OFBiz will never survive, let alone grow, if there are
>>>>>>>>>> no new adopters (end-users, service providers or whatever you
>>>>>>>>>> want to call them). I further argue that the project won't get
>>>>>>>>>> any new adopters by sticking its collective head in the sand and
>>>>>>>>>> ignoring real world issues like release management, quality
>>>>>>>>>> control and my favorite, documentation and training.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> And to your point about selling "services". I'm curious. Since
>>>>>>>>>> you brought it up, what services does HotWax sell that help
>>>>>>>>>> promote the health and well being of the OFBiz project? Or is
>>>>>>>>>> that not what you do? Maybe I don't understand.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Well I for one feel really comfortable saying that I sell a
>>>>>>>>>> "product" that helps promote the health and well being of OFBiz.
>>>>>>>>>> Probably the only one out there? Not only that, my product is
>>>>>>>>>> reasonably priced to encourage new OFBiz adopters. If you can
>>>>>>>>>> afford to buy a week's worth of Starbuck lattes, you can afford
>>>>>>>>>> to purchase my product. Does that make me a "Company" backing
>>>>>>>>>> OFBiz? LOL!
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>>>> Ruth
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>>> Find me on the web at http://www.myofbiz.com or Google keyword
>>>>>>>>>> "myofbiz"
>>>>>>>>>> ruth.hoffman@myofbiz.com
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>>>> Ruth
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Anil Patel wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>                           
>>>>>>>>>>> Here is another blog
>>>>>>>>>>> http://news.cnet.com/8301-13505_3-10458449-16.html
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> One interesting issue these Company driven projects are
>>>>>>>>>>> struggling (evedent from reading these blogs) with is,
>>>>>>>>>>> encourage community to contribute. In Ofbiz we don't have this
>>>>>>>>>>> issue, Ofbiz is build on the concept of "Community driven
>>>>>>>>>>> software development" I feel confident that OfBiz will live
>>>>>>>>>>> longer and grow much more quickly then usual software open
>>>>>>>>>>> source software dragged by corporations. Ofbiz service
>>>>>>>>>>> providers can focus on their core activity "Sell services", and
>>>>>>>>>>> not really wonder around to get funding to keep project alive
>>>>>>>>>>> and moving.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks and Regards
>>>>>>>>>>> Anil Patel
>>>>>>>>>>> HotWax Media Inc
>>>>>>>>>>> Find us on the web at www.hotwaxmedia.com or Google Keyword
>>>>>>>>>>> "ofbiz"
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Feb 24, 2010, at 11:14 AM, Anil Patel wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>                                 
>>>>>>>>>>>> Jacques,
>>>>>>>>>>>> Why do you think so?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> It does not take too long to use 3M euros. And they are trying
>>>>>>>>>>>> to make community contribution thing work for them, We got it
>>>>>>>>>>>> working  for years.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> In case of OpenERP, One provider is dominating the community.
>>>>>>>>>>>> In case of Apache Ofbiz we don't encourage that. Its up to
>>>>>>>>>>>> providers to decide how they want to use OfBiz for building
>>>>>>>>>>>> their business.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks and Regards
>>>>>>>>>>>> Anil Patel
>>>>>>>>>>>> HotWax Media Inc
>>>>>>>>>>>> Find us on the web at www.hotwaxmedia.com or Google Keyword
>>>>>>>>>>>> "ofbiz"
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Feb 24, 2010, at 10:15 AM, Jacques Le Roux wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>                                       
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Maybe the future of OFBiz in Europe (and even in USA it
>>>>>>>>>>>>> seems) will be harder...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://fptiny.blogspot.com/2010/02/openerp-raises-3-million-euros.html 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Or maybe this ERP will not be Open-Source longer in the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> future...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Actually it was the last of the Open-Source ERPs to not
>>>>>>>>>>>>> follow this way (though I"m not sure for ERP5)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> The strategy :
>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://robertogaloppini.net/2009/06/01/open-source-business-strategy-openerp-and-long-term-sustainability/ 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jacques
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>                                               
>>>>>>>>>>>                                   
>>>>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>>>>> Matt Warnock <mw...@ridgecrestherbals.com>
>>>>>>>>> RidgeCrest Herbals, Inc.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>                       
>>>>>>>>                 
>>>>>>  
>>>>>>       
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>   
>>>
>>
>
>

Re: Was Community-Driven OFBiz a Mistake?

[Jacques Le Roux <ja...@les7arts.com>]

Google => site:directwebremoting.org sponsor

Jacques

From: "BJ Freeman" <bj...@free-man.net>
> Ruth I am someone you have to hit over the head to get me to see something
> so if you could just link to what your refereeing to I might see it.
> I scan the home page and did not see anything.
> 
> Ruth Hoffman sent the following on 2/25/2010 11:15 AM:
>> 
>> 
>> David E Jones wrote:
>>> Yes, the subtlety is very impressive. So much so that I can't find any
>>> sponsor links. Am I missing something?
>>>   
>> No. Look closer.
>>> Also, like Jacopo mentioned, DWR is not part of the Apache Software
>>> Foundation (is part of the Dojo Foundation), and has different
>>> guidelines and restrictions.
>>>
>>> Anyway, how is it that they have commercial sponsorship? If they do it
>>> is probably the same way that OFBiz has commercial sponsorship (ie by
>>> various companies contributing), and not like OpenERP, Compiere,
>>> SugarCRM and such where the code is owned and distributed through a
>>> single company.
>>>   
>> Your point is?
>>> So how is this an example of what OFBiz should do?
>>>
>>> Also, why compare OFBiz to DWR? How are the projects similar? The
>>> difference in magnitude, and there for the effort to build, maintain,
>>> test, release, document, etc is staggering.
>>>   
>> Really? How so? Each project has the same challenges: build, maintain,
>> test, release, document.
>>> So, what was your point? The more I look at it the more I'm confused...
>>>   
>> Look again. Consider taking a more casual, relaxed attitude while
>> browsing the site might help you to see what I see.
>> Ruth
>>> -David
>>>
>>>
>>> On Feb 25, 2010, at 11:22 AM, Ruth Hoffman wrote:
>>>
>>>  
>>>> Hi David:
>>>>
>>>> Glad you asked. I kind-of like how DWR has done it. Open source,
>>>> Apache 2.0 with sponsor links very subtle.
>>>> (http://directwebremoting.org/dwr/index.html)
>>>>
>>>> Just my opinion.
>>>> Ruth
>>>>
>>>> David E Jones wrote:
>>>>    
>>>>> How?
>>>>>
>>>>> -David
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Feb 25, 2010, at 11:03 AM, Ruth Hoffman wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>  
>>>>>      
>>>>>> David:
>>>>>> It doesn't have to be so "black" and "white". You can still have
>>>>>> community driven software with the Apache license and enjoy
>>>>>> sponsorship from commercial entities. It happens all the time.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ruth
>>>>>>
>>>>>> David E Jones wrote:
>>>>>>           
>>>>>>> Matt,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You might be interested to hear that early in the life of OFBiz,
>>>>>>> and after technology investing recovered from the lull in
>>>>>>> 2000-2001, I was approached by a number of investors who wanted to
>>>>>>> turn OFBiz into a commercial open source project instead of a
>>>>>>> community-driven one (which would require a change in licensing to
>>>>>>> the GPL or something similar so that end-users would have an
>>>>>>> incentive to purchase licenses; would also require centralizing
>>>>>>> and/or license value added services instead of pushing for an open
>>>>>>> playing field). However, my intent from the beginning was to have
>>>>>>> OFBiz be a community-driven project so I stuck with that.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Perhaps that was a mistake?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> About this comment: "So if you want an OFBiz solution, pay us and
>>>>>>> we'll get you a custom OFBiz solution-- otherwise, don't waste our
>>>>>>> time." That's pretty insulting and low-brow. If that were really
>>>>>>> the case then people who abandon other ERP software to work on
>>>>>>> OFBiz wouldn't be doing so because it is easier to customize...
>>>>>>> and yes, that is the main reason I hear from those experienced
>>>>>>> with other ERP software. Also, there would be no attempts
>>>>>>> whatsoever at documentation, and instead there are thousands of
>>>>>>> pages of it (in fact, probably too much for most people, making it
>>>>>>> harder to find the info they want, leading to complaints of no
>>>>>>> documentation when the fact is they just haven't bothered to read
>>>>>>> it).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Take a look at the OFBiz service providers page and the PMC and
>>>>>>> committers page and see how much overlap there is between them.
>>>>>>> Here's the spoiler: there isn't much overlap at all. The vast
>>>>>>> majority of service providers never contribute back to the
>>>>>>> project. The vast majority of the business around OFBiz results in
>>>>>>> profit that contributors never see a penny of. If I were to
>>>>>>> estimate I'd say it's probably only 1-2% of the money that gets
>>>>>>> back to the smaller group that contributes 90% of the code. In
>>>>>>> other words, most of the customization work is done by people who
>>>>>>> don't contribute to the project, and who don't pay for training or
>>>>>>> any other sort of service. They figure it out on their own for the
>>>>>>> most part.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On the other hand, if you think you can get my time for free just
>>>>>>> because I'm willing to share the intellectual property I create,
>>>>>>> then you're in for some big disappointment! And how could it be
>>>>>>> any other way?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So here we go... we've got a community-driven project and people
>>>>>>> want it to be a commercial project. I've been pushing for years
>>>>>>> for community-driven software and trying to attract developers to
>>>>>>> help build this thing, and for some history about that and
>>>>>>> concepts related to it please see my blog:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://osofbiz.blogspot.com/
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There are a number of posts on this topic, and this one might be
>>>>>>> of particular interest:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://osofbiz.blogspot.com/2008/01/glass-cathedrals-and-community-versus.html
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So, this gets me back to the question I asked above... was all of
>>>>>>> this a mistake? Was I wrong about this approach? Is that the
>>>>>>> message I'm hearing more and more? Should I have gone the
>>>>>>> commercial route with the possibly higher pay out, and probably
>>>>>>> much cleaner and fancier looking resulting software, and
>>>>>>> significantly more marketing exposure, and at least being able to
>>>>>>> get the time of day from technology press folks?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -David
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Feb 24, 2010, at 4:46 PM, Matt Warnock wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>                
>>>>>>>> I have to agree with Ruth on this one.  The question is, what is the
>>>>>>>> OFBiz "community", is it users or developers?  The question has
>>>>>>>> lots of
>>>>>>>> implications, and deserves careful thought.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If venture capitalists (a community I know something about) are
>>>>>>>> willing
>>>>>>>> to invest $3MM euro to increase OpenERP market share, then 1)
>>>>>>>> they see a
>>>>>>>> product that can increase its revenues (and profits) by at least
>>>>>>>> 10-100X
>>>>>>>> in the next 3-5 years, and 2) they see a path to liquidity (public
>>>>>>>> offering or sale), whereby they expect to recoup their investment.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I agree with Jacques that OpenERP is an inferior solution.  Yet
>>>>>>>> he loses
>>>>>>>> contracts to OpenERP.  Why?  Partly because OpenERP looks more
>>>>>>>> polished
>>>>>>>> and finished, and appearances are in fact important.  However, the
>>>>>>>> bigger issue is that OpenERP is more user-friendly (meaning more
>>>>>>>> inviting to users, who are not developers).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The general perception in the OFBiz community seems to be that if
>>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>>> want an ERP solution, you will need to customize it.  For that,
>>>>>>>> you need
>>>>>>>> a developer, and we are those developers.  So if you want an OFBiz
>>>>>>>> solution, pay us and we'll get you a custom OFBiz solution--
>>>>>>>> otherwise,
>>>>>>>> don't waste our time.  Sorry, but that attitude is
>>>>>>>> ass-backwards.  You have the cart driving
>>>>>>>> the horse.  Even record and movie companies (the most ass-backward
>>>>>>>> marketing people on the planet) know that they don't get people
>>>>>>>> to buy
>>>>>>>> records without radio play, or movie tickets without trailers.  Even
>>>>>>>> low-life drug dealers grasp the simple marketing concept of the
>>>>>>>> "loss
>>>>>>>> leader"-- you can get more people using your product by giving it
>>>>>>>> away
>>>>>>>> for free, initially.  In my business, we give away lots of free
>>>>>>>> samples
>>>>>>>> because it it the best way to get people converted to our products.
>>>>>>>> People need to know up front what value they are going to get,
>>>>>>>> and also
>>>>>>>> how much it is going to cost. As an end-user with OpenERP, you
>>>>>>>> get that information (I looked hard at
>>>>>>>> OpenERP a few months ago), but with OFBiz, you really don't.  You
>>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>>> to look really hard (under the hood) to see the things that make
>>>>>>>> OFBiz
>>>>>>>> better, and as developers, you probably all know what those
>>>>>>>> advantages
>>>>>>>> are.  OFBiz's weaknesses, on the other hand, are right on the
>>>>>>>> surface--
>>>>>>>> the very things that Ruth complains about.  Choosing any ERP
>>>>>>>> solution is a hard, painful task, and the initial
>>>>>>>> difficulty of evaluating and customizing OFBiz makes it a harder
>>>>>>>> choice
>>>>>>>> than most.  Inertia (personal and institutional) definitely works
>>>>>>>> against acceptance and adoption of OFBiz, initially.  If OFBiz
>>>>>>>> had a polished, truly "OOTB" solution, then users could try it
>>>>>>>> and (hopefully) find it immediately useful, at least for some
>>>>>>>> limited
>>>>>>>> applications.  Once the nose of the camel gets inside the tent,
>>>>>>>> the rest
>>>>>>>> of the body will follow.  use breeds curiosity, and the
>>>>>>>> incremental cost
>>>>>>>> (other than learning curve) of using more features and
>>>>>>>> applications is
>>>>>>>> zero, so the learning process is encouraged.  Soon, the customer is
>>>>>>>> fully committed and using OFBiz for many things, but inevitably,
>>>>>>>> there
>>>>>>>> are some customizations they would like to make.  Cha-ching! 
>>>>>>>> Customers
>>>>>>>> create themselves.  Instead of a "missionary sale", you have more
>>>>>>>> customers than you can service, and they are looking for you,
>>>>>>>> instead of
>>>>>>>> the reverse.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> That is the difference between OpenERP and OFBiz in a nutshell. 
>>>>>>>> From a
>>>>>>>> user's perspective, OpenERP delivers benefits first and costs later,
>>>>>>>> while OFBiz demands costs up front and delivers the benefits later.
>>>>>>>> Which way do you think is the FASTEST path to a LARGE user
>>>>>>>> community?
>>>>>>>> The venture capitalists have already cast THEIR vote.  On Wed,
>>>>>>>> 2010-02-24 at 14:31 -0500, Ruth Hoffman wrote:
>>>>>>>>                      
>>>>>>>>> Hi Anil:
>>>>>>>>> I'm sure this will start an avalanche of responses all directing
>>>>>>>>> vitriol towards me. Rest assured I don't take any attacks
>>>>>>>>> personally:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> First off, IMHO, encouraging community contributions IS a
>>>>>>>>> problem for OFBiz. The "community" as you so correctly point out
>>>>>>>>> is one of software developers. There is much more to bringing a
>>>>>>>>> product to market, or more importantly, surviving to play
>>>>>>>>> another day, than software development and copious amounts of
>>>>>>>>> code contributed to a source code repository.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Secondly, OFBiz will never survive, let alone grow, if there are
>>>>>>>>> no new adopters (end-users, service providers or whatever you
>>>>>>>>> want to call them). I further argue that the project won't get
>>>>>>>>> any new adopters by sticking its collective head in the sand and
>>>>>>>>> ignoring real world issues like release management, quality
>>>>>>>>> control and my favorite, documentation and training.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> And to your point about selling "services". I'm curious. Since
>>>>>>>>> you brought it up, what services does HotWax sell that help
>>>>>>>>> promote the health and well being of the OFBiz project? Or is
>>>>>>>>> that not what you do? Maybe I don't understand.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Well I for one feel really comfortable saying that I sell a
>>>>>>>>> "product" that helps promote the health and well being of OFBiz.
>>>>>>>>> Probably the only one out there? Not only that, my product is
>>>>>>>>> reasonably priced to encourage new OFBiz adopters. If you can
>>>>>>>>> afford to buy a week's worth of Starbuck lattes, you can afford
>>>>>>>>> to purchase my product. Does that make me a "Company" backing
>>>>>>>>> OFBiz? LOL!
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>>> Ruth
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>> Find me on the web at http://www.myofbiz.com or Google keyword
>>>>>>>>> "myofbiz"
>>>>>>>>> ruth.hoffman@myofbiz.com
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>>> Ruth
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Anil Patel wrote:
>>>>>>>>>                            
>>>>>>>>>> Here is another blog
>>>>>>>>>> http://news.cnet.com/8301-13505_3-10458449-16.html
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> One interesting issue these Company driven projects are
>>>>>>>>>> struggling (evedent from reading these blogs) with is,
>>>>>>>>>> encourage community to contribute. In Ofbiz we don't have this
>>>>>>>>>> issue, Ofbiz is build on the concept of "Community driven
>>>>>>>>>> software development" I feel confident that OfBiz will live
>>>>>>>>>> longer and grow much more quickly then usual software open
>>>>>>>>>> source software dragged by corporations. Ofbiz service
>>>>>>>>>> providers can focus on their core activity "Sell services", and
>>>>>>>>>> not really wonder around to get funding to keep project alive
>>>>>>>>>> and moving.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Thanks and Regards
>>>>>>>>>> Anil Patel
>>>>>>>>>> HotWax Media Inc
>>>>>>>>>> Find us on the web at www.hotwaxmedia.com or Google Keyword
>>>>>>>>>> "ofbiz"
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Feb 24, 2010, at 11:14 AM, Anil Patel wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>                                  
>>>>>>>>>>> Jacques,
>>>>>>>>>>> Why do you think so?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> It does not take too long to use 3M euros. And they are trying
>>>>>>>>>>> to make community contribution thing work for them, We got it
>>>>>>>>>>> working  for years.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> In case of OpenERP, One provider is dominating the community.
>>>>>>>>>>> In case of Apache Ofbiz we don't encourage that. Its up to
>>>>>>>>>>> providers to decide how they want to use OfBiz for building
>>>>>>>>>>> their business.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks and Regards
>>>>>>>>>>> Anil Patel
>>>>>>>>>>> HotWax Media Inc
>>>>>>>>>>> Find us on the web at www.hotwaxmedia.com or Google Keyword
>>>>>>>>>>> "ofbiz"
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Feb 24, 2010, at 10:15 AM, Jacques Le Roux wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>                                        
>>>>>>>>>>>> Maybe the future of OFBiz in Europe (and even in USA it
>>>>>>>>>>>> seems) will be harder...
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://fptiny.blogspot.com/2010/02/openerp-raises-3-million-euros.html
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Or maybe this ERP will not be Open-Source longer in the
>>>>>>>>>>>> future...
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Actually it was the last of the Open-Source ERPs to not
>>>>>>>>>>>> follow this way (though I"m not sure for ERP5)
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> The strategy :
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://robertogaloppini.net/2009/06/01/open-source-business-strategy-openerp-and-long-term-sustainability/
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Jacques
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>                                               
>>>>>>>>>>                                   
>>>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>>>> Matt Warnock <mw...@ridgecrestherbals.com>
>>>>>>>> RidgeCrest Herbals, Inc.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>                       
>>>>>>>                 
>>>>>  
>>>>>       
>>>
>>>
>>>   
>> 
>

Re: Was Community-Driven OFBiz a Mistake?

[BJ Freeman <bj...@free-man.net>]

Ruth I am someone you have to hit over the head to get me to see something
so if you could just link to what your refereeing to I might see it.
I scan the home page and did not see anything.

Ruth Hoffman sent the following on 2/25/2010 11:15 AM:
> 
> 
> David E Jones wrote:
>> Yes, the subtlety is very impressive. So much so that I can't find any
>> sponsor links. Am I missing something?
>>   
> No. Look closer.
>> Also, like Jacopo mentioned, DWR is not part of the Apache Software
>> Foundation (is part of the Dojo Foundation), and has different
>> guidelines and restrictions.
>>
>> Anyway, how is it that they have commercial sponsorship? If they do it
>> is probably the same way that OFBiz has commercial sponsorship (ie by
>> various companies contributing), and not like OpenERP, Compiere,
>> SugarCRM and such where the code is owned and distributed through a
>> single company.
>>   
> Your point is?
>> So how is this an example of what OFBiz should do?
>>
>> Also, why compare OFBiz to DWR? How are the projects similar? The
>> difference in magnitude, and there for the effort to build, maintain,
>> test, release, document, etc is staggering.
>>   
> Really? How so? Each project has the same challenges: build, maintain,
> test, release, document.
>> So, what was your point? The more I look at it the more I'm confused...
>>   
> Look again. Consider taking a more casual, relaxed attitude while
> browsing the site might help you to see what I see.
> Ruth
>> -David
>>
>>
>> On Feb 25, 2010, at 11:22 AM, Ruth Hoffman wrote:
>>
>>  
>>> Hi David:
>>>
>>> Glad you asked. I kind-of like how DWR has done it. Open source,
>>> Apache 2.0 with sponsor links very subtle.
>>> (http://directwebremoting.org/dwr/index.html)
>>>
>>> Just my opinion.
>>> Ruth
>>>
>>> David E Jones wrote:
>>>    
>>>> How?
>>>>
>>>> -David
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Feb 25, 2010, at 11:03 AM, Ruth Hoffman wrote:
>>>>
>>>>  
>>>>      
>>>>> David:
>>>>> It doesn't have to be so "black" and "white". You can still have
>>>>> community driven software with the Apache license and enjoy
>>>>> sponsorship from commercial entities. It happens all the time.
>>>>>
>>>>> Ruth
>>>>>
>>>>> David E Jones wrote:
>>>>>           
>>>>>> Matt,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You might be interested to hear that early in the life of OFBiz,
>>>>>> and after technology investing recovered from the lull in
>>>>>> 2000-2001, I was approached by a number of investors who wanted to
>>>>>> turn OFBiz into a commercial open source project instead of a
>>>>>> community-driven one (which would require a change in licensing to
>>>>>> the GPL or something similar so that end-users would have an
>>>>>> incentive to purchase licenses; would also require centralizing
>>>>>> and/or license value added services instead of pushing for an open
>>>>>> playing field). However, my intent from the beginning was to have
>>>>>> OFBiz be a community-driven project so I stuck with that.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Perhaps that was a mistake?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> About this comment: "So if you want an OFBiz solution, pay us and
>>>>>> we'll get you a custom OFBiz solution-- otherwise, don't waste our
>>>>>> time." That's pretty insulting and low-brow. If that were really
>>>>>> the case then people who abandon other ERP software to work on
>>>>>> OFBiz wouldn't be doing so because it is easier to customize...
>>>>>> and yes, that is the main reason I hear from those experienced
>>>>>> with other ERP software. Also, there would be no attempts
>>>>>> whatsoever at documentation, and instead there are thousands of
>>>>>> pages of it (in fact, probably too much for most people, making it
>>>>>> harder to find the info they want, leading to complaints of no
>>>>>> documentation when the fact is they just haven't bothered to read
>>>>>> it).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Take a look at the OFBiz service providers page and the PMC and
>>>>>> committers page and see how much overlap there is between them.
>>>>>> Here's the spoiler: there isn't much overlap at all. The vast
>>>>>> majority of service providers never contribute back to the
>>>>>> project. The vast majority of the business around OFBiz results in
>>>>>> profit that contributors never see a penny of. If I were to
>>>>>> estimate I'd say it's probably only 1-2% of the money that gets
>>>>>> back to the smaller group that contributes 90% of the code. In
>>>>>> other words, most of the customization work is done by people who
>>>>>> don't contribute to the project, and who don't pay for training or
>>>>>> any other sort of service. They figure it out on their own for the
>>>>>> most part.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On the other hand, if you think you can get my time for free just
>>>>>> because I'm willing to share the intellectual property I create,
>>>>>> then you're in for some big disappointment! And how could it be
>>>>>> any other way?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So here we go... we've got a community-driven project and people
>>>>>> want it to be a commercial project. I've been pushing for years
>>>>>> for community-driven software and trying to attract developers to
>>>>>> help build this thing, and for some history about that and
>>>>>> concepts related to it please see my blog:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://osofbiz.blogspot.com/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There are a number of posts on this topic, and this one might be
>>>>>> of particular interest:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://osofbiz.blogspot.com/2008/01/glass-cathedrals-and-community-versus.html
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So, this gets me back to the question I asked above... was all of
>>>>>> this a mistake? Was I wrong about this approach? Is that the
>>>>>> message I'm hearing more and more? Should I have gone the
>>>>>> commercial route with the possibly higher pay out, and probably
>>>>>> much cleaner and fancier looking resulting software, and
>>>>>> significantly more marketing exposure, and at least being able to
>>>>>> get the time of day from technology press folks?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -David
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Feb 24, 2010, at 4:46 PM, Matt Warnock wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>                
>>>>>>> I have to agree with Ruth on this one.  The question is, what is the
>>>>>>> OFBiz "community", is it users or developers?  The question has
>>>>>>> lots of
>>>>>>> implications, and deserves careful thought.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If venture capitalists (a community I know something about) are
>>>>>>> willing
>>>>>>> to invest $3MM euro to increase OpenERP market share, then 1)
>>>>>>> they see a
>>>>>>> product that can increase its revenues (and profits) by at least
>>>>>>> 10-100X
>>>>>>> in the next 3-5 years, and 2) they see a path to liquidity (public
>>>>>>> offering or sale), whereby they expect to recoup their investment.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I agree with Jacques that OpenERP is an inferior solution.  Yet
>>>>>>> he loses
>>>>>>> contracts to OpenERP.  Why?  Partly because OpenERP looks more
>>>>>>> polished
>>>>>>> and finished, and appearances are in fact important.  However, the
>>>>>>> bigger issue is that OpenERP is more user-friendly (meaning more
>>>>>>> inviting to users, who are not developers).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The general perception in the OFBiz community seems to be that if
>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>> want an ERP solution, you will need to customize it.  For that,
>>>>>>> you need
>>>>>>> a developer, and we are those developers.  So if you want an OFBiz
>>>>>>> solution, pay us and we'll get you a custom OFBiz solution--
>>>>>>> otherwise,
>>>>>>> don't waste our time.  Sorry, but that attitude is
>>>>>>> ass-backwards.  You have the cart driving
>>>>>>> the horse.  Even record and movie companies (the most ass-backward
>>>>>>> marketing people on the planet) know that they don't get people
>>>>>>> to buy
>>>>>>> records without radio play, or movie tickets without trailers.  Even
>>>>>>> low-life drug dealers grasp the simple marketing concept of the
>>>>>>> "loss
>>>>>>> leader"-- you can get more people using your product by giving it
>>>>>>> away
>>>>>>> for free, initially.  In my business, we give away lots of free
>>>>>>> samples
>>>>>>> because it it the best way to get people converted to our products.
>>>>>>> People need to know up front what value they are going to get,
>>>>>>> and also
>>>>>>> how much it is going to cost. As an end-user with OpenERP, you
>>>>>>> get that information (I looked hard at
>>>>>>> OpenERP a few months ago), but with OFBiz, you really don't.  You
>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>> to look really hard (under the hood) to see the things that make
>>>>>>> OFBiz
>>>>>>> better, and as developers, you probably all know what those
>>>>>>> advantages
>>>>>>> are.  OFBiz's weaknesses, on the other hand, are right on the
>>>>>>> surface--
>>>>>>> the very things that Ruth complains about.  Choosing any ERP
>>>>>>> solution is a hard, painful task, and the initial
>>>>>>> difficulty of evaluating and customizing OFBiz makes it a harder
>>>>>>> choice
>>>>>>> than most.  Inertia (personal and institutional) definitely works
>>>>>>> against acceptance and adoption of OFBiz, initially.  If OFBiz
>>>>>>> had a polished, truly "OOTB" solution, then users could try it
>>>>>>> and (hopefully) find it immediately useful, at least for some
>>>>>>> limited
>>>>>>> applications.  Once the nose of the camel gets inside the tent,
>>>>>>> the rest
>>>>>>> of the body will follow.  use breeds curiosity, and the
>>>>>>> incremental cost
>>>>>>> (other than learning curve) of using more features and
>>>>>>> applications is
>>>>>>> zero, so the learning process is encouraged.  Soon, the customer is
>>>>>>> fully committed and using OFBiz for many things, but inevitably,
>>>>>>> there
>>>>>>> are some customizations they would like to make.  Cha-ching! 
>>>>>>> Customers
>>>>>>> create themselves.  Instead of a "missionary sale", you have more
>>>>>>> customers than you can service, and they are looking for you,
>>>>>>> instead of
>>>>>>> the reverse.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That is the difference between OpenERP and OFBiz in a nutshell. 
>>>>>>> From a
>>>>>>> user's perspective, OpenERP delivers benefits first and costs later,
>>>>>>> while OFBiz demands costs up front and delivers the benefits later.
>>>>>>> Which way do you think is the FASTEST path to a LARGE user
>>>>>>> community?
>>>>>>> The venture capitalists have already cast THEIR vote.  On Wed,
>>>>>>> 2010-02-24 at 14:31 -0500, Ruth Hoffman wrote:
>>>>>>>                      
>>>>>>>> Hi Anil:
>>>>>>>> I'm sure this will start an avalanche of responses all directing
>>>>>>>> vitriol towards me. Rest assured I don't take any attacks
>>>>>>>> personally:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> First off, IMHO, encouraging community contributions IS a
>>>>>>>> problem for OFBiz. The "community" as you so correctly point out
>>>>>>>> is one of software developers. There is much more to bringing a
>>>>>>>> product to market, or more importantly, surviving to play
>>>>>>>> another day, than software development and copious amounts of
>>>>>>>> code contributed to a source code repository.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Secondly, OFBiz will never survive, let alone grow, if there are
>>>>>>>> no new adopters (end-users, service providers or whatever you
>>>>>>>> want to call them). I further argue that the project won't get
>>>>>>>> any new adopters by sticking its collective head in the sand and
>>>>>>>> ignoring real world issues like release management, quality
>>>>>>>> control and my favorite, documentation and training.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> And to your point about selling "services". I'm curious. Since
>>>>>>>> you brought it up, what services does HotWax sell that help
>>>>>>>> promote the health and well being of the OFBiz project? Or is
>>>>>>>> that not what you do? Maybe I don't understand.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Well I for one feel really comfortable saying that I sell a
>>>>>>>> "product" that helps promote the health and well being of OFBiz.
>>>>>>>> Probably the only one out there? Not only that, my product is
>>>>>>>> reasonably priced to encourage new OFBiz adopters. If you can
>>>>>>>> afford to buy a week's worth of Starbuck lattes, you can afford
>>>>>>>> to purchase my product. Does that make me a "Company" backing
>>>>>>>> OFBiz? LOL!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>> Ruth
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>> Find me on the web at http://www.myofbiz.com or Google keyword
>>>>>>>> "myofbiz"
>>>>>>>> ruth.hoffman@myofbiz.com
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>> Ruth
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Anil Patel wrote:
>>>>>>>>                            
>>>>>>>>> Here is another blog
>>>>>>>>> http://news.cnet.com/8301-13505_3-10458449-16.html
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> One interesting issue these Company driven projects are
>>>>>>>>> struggling (evedent from reading these blogs) with is,
>>>>>>>>> encourage community to contribute. In Ofbiz we don't have this
>>>>>>>>> issue, Ofbiz is build on the concept of "Community driven
>>>>>>>>> software development" I feel confident that OfBiz will live
>>>>>>>>> longer and grow much more quickly then usual software open
>>>>>>>>> source software dragged by corporations. Ofbiz service
>>>>>>>>> providers can focus on their core activity "Sell services", and
>>>>>>>>> not really wonder around to get funding to keep project alive
>>>>>>>>> and moving.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Thanks and Regards
>>>>>>>>> Anil Patel
>>>>>>>>> HotWax Media Inc
>>>>>>>>> Find us on the web at www.hotwaxmedia.com or Google Keyword
>>>>>>>>> "ofbiz"
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Feb 24, 2010, at 11:14 AM, Anil Patel wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>                                  
>>>>>>>>>> Jacques,
>>>>>>>>>> Why do you think so?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> It does not take too long to use 3M euros. And they are trying
>>>>>>>>>> to make community contribution thing work for them, We got it
>>>>>>>>>> working  for years.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> In case of OpenERP, One provider is dominating the community.
>>>>>>>>>> In case of Apache Ofbiz we don't encourage that. Its up to
>>>>>>>>>> providers to decide how they want to use OfBiz for building
>>>>>>>>>> their business.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Thanks and Regards
>>>>>>>>>> Anil Patel
>>>>>>>>>> HotWax Media Inc
>>>>>>>>>> Find us on the web at www.hotwaxmedia.com or Google Keyword
>>>>>>>>>> "ofbiz"
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Feb 24, 2010, at 10:15 AM, Jacques Le Roux wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>                                        
>>>>>>>>>>> Maybe the future of OFBiz in Europe (and even in USA it
>>>>>>>>>>> seems) will be harder...
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> http://fptiny.blogspot.com/2010/02/openerp-raises-3-million-euros.html
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Or maybe this ERP will not be Open-Source longer in the
>>>>>>>>>>> future...
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Actually it was the last of the Open-Source ERPs to not
>>>>>>>>>>> follow this way (though I"m not sure for ERP5)
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The strategy :
>>>>>>>>>>> http://robertogaloppini.net/2009/06/01/open-source-business-strategy-openerp-and-long-term-sustainability/
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Jacques
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>                                               
>>>>>>>>>                                   
>>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>>> Matt Warnock <mw...@ridgecrestherbals.com>
>>>>>>> RidgeCrest Herbals, Inc.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>                       
>>>>>>                 
>>>>  
>>>>       
>>
>>
>>   
> 

Re: Was Community-Driven OFBiz a Mistake?

[David E Jones <de...@me.com>]

Yes, the subtlety is very impressive. So much so that I can't find any sponsor links. Am I missing something?

Also, like Jacopo mentioned, DWR is not part of the Apache Software Foundation (is part of the Dojo Foundation), and has different guidelines and restrictions.

Anyway, how is it that they have commercial sponsorship? If they do it is probably the same way that OFBiz has commercial sponsorship (ie by various companies contributing), and not like OpenERP, Compiere, SugarCRM and such where the code is owned and distributed through a single company.

So how is this an example of what OFBiz should do?

Also, why compare OFBiz to DWR? How are the projects similar? The difference in magnitude, and there for the effort to build, maintain, test, release, document, etc is staggering.

So, what was your point? The more I look at it the more I'm confused...

-David


On Feb 25, 2010, at 11:22 AM, Ruth Hoffman wrote:

> Hi David:
> 
> Glad you asked. I kind-of like how DWR has done it. Open source, Apache 2.0 with sponsor links very subtle. (http://directwebremoting.org/dwr/index.html)
> 
> Just my opinion.
> Ruth
> 
> David E Jones wrote:
>> How?
>> 
>> -David
>> 
>> 
>> On Feb 25, 2010, at 11:03 AM, Ruth Hoffman wrote:
>> 
>>  
>>> David:
>>> It doesn't have to be so "black" and "white". You can still have community driven software with the Apache license and enjoy sponsorship from commercial entities. It happens all the time.
>>> 
>>> Ruth
>>> 
>>> David E Jones wrote:
>>>    
>>>> Matt,
>>>> 
>>>> You might be interested to hear that early in the life of OFBiz, and after technology investing recovered from the lull in 2000-2001, I was approached by a number of investors who wanted to turn OFBiz into a commercial open source project instead of a community-driven one (which would require a change in licensing to the GPL or something similar so that end-users would have an incentive to purchase licenses; would also require centralizing and/or license value added services instead of pushing for an open playing field). However, my intent from the beginning was to have OFBiz be a community-driven project so I stuck with that.
>>>> 
>>>> Perhaps that was a mistake?
>>>> 
>>>> About this comment: "So if you want an OFBiz solution, pay us and we'll get you a custom OFBiz solution-- otherwise, don't waste our time." That's pretty insulting and low-brow. If that were really the case then people who abandon other ERP software to work on OFBiz wouldn't be doing so because it is easier to customize... and yes, that is the main reason I hear from those experienced with other ERP software. Also, there would be no attempts whatsoever at documentation, and instead there are thousands of pages of it (in fact, probably too much for most people, making it harder to find the info they want, leading to complaints of no documentation when the fact is they just haven't bothered to read it).
>>>> 
>>>> Take a look at the OFBiz service providers page and the PMC and committers page and see how much overlap there is between them. Here's the spoiler: there isn't much overlap at all. The vast majority of service providers never contribute back to the project. The vast majority of the business around OFBiz results in profit that contributors never see a penny of. If I were to estimate I'd say it's probably only 1-2% of the money that gets back to the smaller group that contributes 90% of the code. In other words, most of the customization work is done by people who don't contribute to the project, and who don't pay for training or any other sort of service. They figure it out on their own for the most part.
>>>> 
>>>> On the other hand, if you think you can get my time for free just because I'm willing to share the intellectual property I create, then you're in for some big disappointment! And how could it be any other way?
>>>> 
>>>> So here we go... we've got a community-driven project and people want it to be a commercial project. I've been pushing for years for community-driven software and trying to attract developers to help build this thing, and for some history about that and concepts related to it please see my blog:
>>>> 
>>>> http://osofbiz.blogspot.com/
>>>> 
>>>> There are a number of posts on this topic, and this one might be of particular interest:
>>>> 
>>>> http://osofbiz.blogspot.com/2008/01/glass-cathedrals-and-community-versus.html
>>>> 
>>>> So, this gets me back to the question I asked above... was all of this a mistake? Was I wrong about this approach? Is that the message I'm hearing more and more? Should I have gone the commercial route with the possibly higher pay out, and probably much cleaner and fancier looking resulting software, and significantly more marketing exposure, and at least being able to get the time of day from technology press folks?
>>>> 
>>>> -David
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> On Feb 24, 2010, at 4:46 PM, Matt Warnock wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>       
>>>>> I have to agree with Ruth on this one.  The question is, what is the
>>>>> OFBiz "community", is it users or developers?  The question has lots of
>>>>> implications, and deserves careful thought.
>>>>> 
>>>>> If venture capitalists (a community I know something about) are willing
>>>>> to invest $3MM euro to increase OpenERP market share, then 1) they see a
>>>>> product that can increase its revenues (and profits) by at least 10-100X
>>>>> in the next 3-5 years, and 2) they see a path to liquidity (public
>>>>> offering or sale), whereby they expect to recoup their investment.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I agree with Jacques that OpenERP is an inferior solution.  Yet he loses
>>>>> contracts to OpenERP.  Why?  Partly because OpenERP looks more polished
>>>>> and finished, and appearances are in fact important.  However, the
>>>>> bigger issue is that OpenERP is more user-friendly (meaning more
>>>>> inviting to users, who are not developers).
>>>>> 
>>>>> The general perception in the OFBiz community seems to be that if you
>>>>> want an ERP solution, you will need to customize it.  For that, you need
>>>>> a developer, and we are those developers.  So if you want an OFBiz
>>>>> solution, pay us and we'll get you a custom OFBiz solution-- otherwise,
>>>>> don't waste our time.  Sorry, but that attitude is ass-backwards.  You have the cart driving
>>>>> the horse.  Even record and movie companies (the most ass-backward
>>>>> marketing people on the planet) know that they don't get people to buy
>>>>> records without radio play, or movie tickets without trailers.  Even
>>>>> low-life drug dealers grasp the simple marketing concept of the "loss
>>>>> leader"-- you can get more people using your product by giving it away
>>>>> for free, initially.  In my business, we give away lots of free samples
>>>>> because it it the best way to get people converted to our products.
>>>>> People need to know up front what value they are going to get, and also
>>>>> how much it is going to cost. As an end-user with OpenERP, you get that information (I looked hard at
>>>>> OpenERP a few months ago), but with OFBiz, you really don't.  You have
>>>>> to look really hard (under the hood) to see the things that make OFBiz
>>>>> better, and as developers, you probably all know what those advantages
>>>>> are.  OFBiz's weaknesses, on the other hand, are right on the surface--
>>>>> the very things that Ruth complains about.  Choosing any ERP solution is a hard, painful task, and the initial
>>>>> difficulty of evaluating and customizing OFBiz makes it a harder choice
>>>>> than most.  Inertia (personal and institutional) definitely works
>>>>> against acceptance and adoption of OFBiz, initially.  If OFBiz had a polished, truly "OOTB" solution, then users could try it
>>>>> and (hopefully) find it immediately useful, at least for some limited
>>>>> applications.  Once the nose of the camel gets inside the tent, the rest
>>>>> of the body will follow.  use breeds curiosity, and the incremental cost
>>>>> (other than learning curve) of using more features and applications is
>>>>> zero, so the learning process is encouraged.  Soon, the customer is
>>>>> fully committed and using OFBiz for many things, but inevitably, there
>>>>> are some customizations they would like to make.  Cha-ching!  Customers
>>>>> create themselves.  Instead of a "missionary sale", you have more
>>>>> customers than you can service, and they are looking for you, instead of
>>>>> the reverse.
>>>>> 
>>>>> That is the difference between OpenERP and OFBiz in a nutshell.  From a
>>>>> user's perspective, OpenERP delivers benefits first and costs later,
>>>>> while OFBiz demands costs up front and delivers the benefits later.
>>>>> Which way do you think is the FASTEST path to a LARGE user community?
>>>>> The venture capitalists have already cast THEIR vote.  On Wed, 2010-02-24 at 14:31 -0500, Ruth Hoffman wrote:
>>>>>           
>>>>>> Hi Anil:
>>>>>> I'm sure this will start an avalanche of responses all directing vitriol towards me. Rest assured I don't take any attacks personally:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> First off, IMHO, encouraging community contributions IS a problem for OFBiz. The "community" as you so correctly point out is one of software developers. There is much more to bringing a product to market, or more importantly, surviving to play another day, than software development and copious amounts of code contributed to a source code repository.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Secondly, OFBiz will never survive, let alone grow, if there are no new adopters (end-users, service providers or whatever you want to call them). I further argue that the project won't get any new adopters by sticking its collective head in the sand and ignoring real world issues like release management, quality control and my favorite, documentation and training.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> And to your point about selling "services". I'm curious. Since you brought it up, what services does HotWax sell that help promote the health and well being of the OFBiz project? Or is that not what you do? Maybe I don't understand.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Well I for one feel really comfortable saying that I sell a "product" that helps promote the health and well being of OFBiz. Probably the only one out there? Not only that, my product is reasonably priced to encourage new OFBiz adopters. If you can afford to buy a week's worth of Starbuck lattes, you can afford to purchase my product. Does that make me a "Company" backing OFBiz? LOL!
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>> Ruth
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------
>>>>>> Find me on the web at http://www.myofbiz.com or Google keyword "myofbiz"
>>>>>> ruth.hoffman@myofbiz.com
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>> Ruth
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Anil Patel wrote:
>>>>>>               
>>>>>>> Here is another blog http://news.cnet.com/8301-13505_3-10458449-16.html
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> One interesting issue these Company driven projects are struggling (evedent from reading these blogs) with is, encourage community to contribute. In Ofbiz we don't have this issue, Ofbiz is build on the concept of "Community driven software development" I feel confident that OfBiz will live longer and grow much more quickly then usual software open source software dragged by corporations. Ofbiz service providers can focus on their core activity "Sell services", and not really wonder around to get funding to keep project alive and moving.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Thanks and Regards
>>>>>>> Anil Patel
>>>>>>> HotWax Media Inc
>>>>>>> Find us on the web at www.hotwaxmedia.com or Google Keyword "ofbiz"
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On Feb 24, 2010, at 11:14 AM, Anil Patel wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>                   
>>>>>>>> Jacques,
>>>>>>>> Why do you think so?
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> It does not take too long to use 3M euros. And they are trying to make community contribution thing work for them, We got it working  for years.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> In case of OpenERP, One provider is dominating the community. In case of Apache Ofbiz we don't encourage that. Its up to providers to decide how they want to use OfBiz for building their business.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Thanks and Regards
>>>>>>>> Anil Patel
>>>>>>>> HotWax Media Inc
>>>>>>>> Find us on the web at www.hotwaxmedia.com or Google Keyword "ofbiz"
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On Feb 24, 2010, at 10:15 AM, Jacques Le Roux wrote:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>                       
>>>>>>>>> Maybe the future of OFBiz in Europe (and even in USA it seems) will be harder...
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> http://fptiny.blogspot.com/2010/02/openerp-raises-3-million-euros.html
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Or maybe this ERP will not be Open-Source longer in the future...
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Actually it was the last of the Open-Source ERPs to not follow this way (though I"m not sure for ERP5)
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> The strategy : http://robertogaloppini.net/2009/06/01/open-source-business-strategy-openerp-and-long-term-sustainability/
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Jacques
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>                           
>>>>>>>                   
>>>>> -- 
>>>>> Matt Warnock <mw...@ridgecrestherbals.com>
>>>>> RidgeCrest Herbals, Inc.
>>>>> 
>>>>>           
>>>>       
>> 
>> 
>>  

Re: Was Community-Driven OFBiz a Mistake?

[Jacopo Cappellato <ja...@hotwaxmedia.com>]

Donations can only be received by the ASF, not by the OFBiz project specifically.

Jacopo

On Feb 25, 2010, at 7:22 PM, Ruth Hoffman wrote:

> Hi David:
> 
> Glad you asked. I kind-of like how DWR has done it. Open source, Apache 2.0 with sponsor links very subtle. (http://directwebremoting.org/dwr/index.html)
> 
> Just my opinion.
> Ruth
> 
> David E Jones wrote:
>> How?
>> 
>> -David
>> 
>> 
>> On Feb 25, 2010, at 11:03 AM, Ruth Hoffman wrote:
>> 
>>  
>>> David:
>>> It doesn't have to be so "black" and "white". You can still have community driven software with the Apache license and enjoy sponsorship from commercial entities. It happens all the time.
>>> 
>>> Ruth
>>> 
>>> David E Jones wrote:
>>>    
>>>> Matt,
>>>> 
>>>> You might be interested to hear that early in the life of OFBiz, and after technology investing recovered from the lull in 2000-2001, I was approached by a number of investors who wanted to turn OFBiz into a commercial open source project instead of a community-driven one (which would require a change in licensing to the GPL or something similar so that end-users would have an incentive to purchase licenses; would also require centralizing and/or license value added services instead of pushing for an open playing field). However, my intent from the beginning was to have OFBiz be a community-driven project so I stuck with that.
>>>> 
>>>> Perhaps that was a mistake?
>>>> 
>>>> About this comment: "So if you want an OFBiz solution, pay us and we'll get you a custom OFBiz solution-- otherwise, don't waste our time." That's pretty insulting and low-brow. If that were really the case then people who abandon other ERP software to work on OFBiz wouldn't be doing so because it is easier to customize... and yes, that is the main reason I hear from those experienced with other ERP software. Also, there would be no attempts whatsoever at documentation, and instead there are thousands of pages of it (in fact, probably too much for most people, making it harder to find the info they want, leading to complaints of no documentation when the fact is they just haven't bothered to read it).
>>>> 
>>>> Take a look at the OFBiz service providers page and the PMC and committers page and see how much overlap there is between them. Here's the spoiler: there isn't much overlap at all. The vast majority of service providers never contribute back to the project. The vast majority of the business around OFBiz results in profit that contributors never see a penny of. If I were to estimate I'd say it's probably only 1-2% of the money that gets back to the smaller group that contributes 90% of the code. In other words, most of the customization work is done by people who don't contribute to the project, and who don't pay for training or any other sort of service. They figure it out on their own for the most part.
>>>> 
>>>> On the other hand, if you think you can get my time for free just because I'm willing to share the intellectual property I create, then you're in for some big disappointment! And how could it be any other way?
>>>> 
>>>> So here we go... we've got a community-driven project and people want it to be a commercial project. I've been pushing for years for community-driven software and trying to attract developers to help build this thing, and for some history about that and concepts related to it please see my blog:
>>>> 
>>>> http://osofbiz.blogspot.com/
>>>> 
>>>> There are a number of posts on this topic, and this one might be of particular interest:
>>>> 
>>>> http://osofbiz.blogspot.com/2008/01/glass-cathedrals-and-community-versus.html
>>>> 
>>>> So, this gets me back to the question I asked above... was all of this a mistake? Was I wrong about this approach? Is that the message I'm hearing more and more? Should I have gone the commercial route with the possibly higher pay out, and probably much cleaner and fancier looking resulting software, and significantly more marketing exposure, and at least being able to get the time of day from technology press folks?
>>>> 
>>>> -David
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> On Feb 24, 2010, at 4:46 PM, Matt Warnock wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>       
>>>>> I have to agree with Ruth on this one.  The question is, what is the
>>>>> OFBiz "community", is it users or developers?  The question has lots of
>>>>> implications, and deserves careful thought.
>>>>> 
>>>>> If venture capitalists (a community I know something about) are willing
>>>>> to invest $3MM euro to increase OpenERP market share, then 1) they see a
>>>>> product that can increase its revenues (and profits) by at least 10-100X
>>>>> in the next 3-5 years, and 2) they see a path to liquidity (public
>>>>> offering or sale), whereby they expect to recoup their investment.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I agree with Jacques that OpenERP is an inferior solution.  Yet he loses
>>>>> contracts to OpenERP.  Why?  Partly because OpenERP looks more polished
>>>>> and finished, and appearances are in fact important.  However, the
>>>>> bigger issue is that OpenERP is more user-friendly (meaning more
>>>>> inviting to users, who are not developers).
>>>>> 
>>>>> The general perception in the OFBiz community seems to be that if you
>>>>> want an ERP solution, you will need to customize it.  For that, you need
>>>>> a developer, and we are those developers.  So if you want an OFBiz
>>>>> solution, pay us and we'll get you a custom OFBiz solution-- otherwise,
>>>>> don't waste our time.  Sorry, but that attitude is ass-backwards.  You have the cart driving
>>>>> the horse.  Even record and movie companies (the most ass-backward
>>>>> marketing people on the planet) know that they don't get people to buy
>>>>> records without radio play, or movie tickets without trailers.  Even
>>>>> low-life drug dealers grasp the simple marketing concept of the "loss
>>>>> leader"-- you can get more people using your product by giving it away
>>>>> for free, initially.  In my business, we give away lots of free samples
>>>>> because it it the best way to get people converted to our products.
>>>>> People need to know up front what value they are going to get, and also
>>>>> how much it is going to cost. As an end-user with OpenERP, you get that information (I looked hard at
>>>>> OpenERP a few months ago), but with OFBiz, you really don't.  You have
>>>>> to look really hard (under the hood) to see the things that make OFBiz
>>>>> better, and as developers, you probably all know what those advantages
>>>>> are.  OFBiz's weaknesses, on the other hand, are right on the surface--
>>>>> the very things that Ruth complains about.  Choosing any ERP solution is a hard, painful task, and the initial
>>>>> difficulty of evaluating and customizing OFBiz makes it a harder choice
>>>>> than most.  Inertia (personal and institutional) definitely works
>>>>> against acceptance and adoption of OFBiz, initially.  If OFBiz had a polished, truly "OOTB" solution, then users could try it
>>>>> and (hopefully) find it immediately useful, at least for some limited
>>>>> applications.  Once the nose of the camel gets inside the tent, the rest
>>>>> of the body will follow.  use breeds curiosity, and the incremental cost
>>>>> (other than learning curve) of using more features and applications is
>>>>> zero, so the learning process is encouraged.  Soon, the customer is
>>>>> fully committed and using OFBiz for many things, but inevitably, there
>>>>> are some customizations they would like to make.  Cha-ching!  Customers
>>>>> create themselves.  Instead of a "missionary sale", you have more
>>>>> customers than you can service, and they are looking for you, instead of
>>>>> the reverse.
>>>>> 
>>>>> That is the difference between OpenERP and OFBiz in a nutshell.  From a
>>>>> user's perspective, OpenERP delivers benefits first and costs later,
>>>>> while OFBiz demands costs up front and delivers the benefits later.
>>>>> Which way do you think is the FASTEST path to a LARGE user community?
>>>>> The venture capitalists have already cast THEIR vote.  On Wed, 2010-02-24 at 14:31 -0500, Ruth Hoffman wrote:
>>>>>           
>>>>>> Hi Anil:
>>>>>> I'm sure this will start an avalanche of responses all directing vitriol towards me. Rest assured I don't take any attacks personally:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> First off, IMHO, encouraging community contributions IS a problem for OFBiz. The "community" as you so correctly point out is one of software developers. There is much more to bringing a product to market, or more importantly, surviving to play another day, than software development and copious amounts of code contributed to a source code repository.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Secondly, OFBiz will never survive, let alone grow, if there are no new adopters (end-users, service providers or whatever you want to call them). I further argue that the project won't get any new adopters by sticking its collective head in the sand and ignoring real world issues like release management, quality control and my favorite, documentation and training.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> And to your point about selling "services". I'm curious. Since you brought it up, what services does HotWax sell that help promote the health and well being of the OFBiz project? Or is that not what you do? Maybe I don't understand.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Well I for one feel really comfortable saying that I sell a "product" that helps promote the health and well being of OFBiz. Probably the only one out there? Not only that, my product is reasonably priced to encourage new OFBiz adopters. If you can afford to buy a week's worth of Starbuck lattes, you can afford to purchase my product. Does that make me a "Company" backing OFBiz? LOL!
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>> Ruth
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------
>>>>>> Find me on the web at http://www.myofbiz.com or Google keyword "myofbiz"
>>>>>> ruth.hoffman@myofbiz.com
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>> Ruth
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Anil Patel wrote:
>>>>>>               
>>>>>>> Here is another blog http://news.cnet.com/8301-13505_3-10458449-16.html
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> One interesting issue these Company driven projects are struggling (evedent from reading these blogs) with is, encourage community to contribute. In Ofbiz we don't have this issue, Ofbiz is build on the concept of "Community driven software development" I feel confident that OfBiz will live longer and grow much more quickly then usual software open source software dragged by corporations. Ofbiz service providers can focus on their core activity "Sell services", and not really wonder around to get funding to keep project alive and moving.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Thanks and Regards
>>>>>>> Anil Patel
>>>>>>> HotWax Media Inc
>>>>>>> Find us on the web at www.hotwaxmedia.com or Google Keyword "ofbiz"
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On Feb 24, 2010, at 11:14 AM, Anil Patel wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>                   
>>>>>>>> Jacques,
>>>>>>>> Why do you think so?
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> It does not take too long to use 3M euros. And they are trying to make community contribution thing work for them, We got it working  for years.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> In case of OpenERP, One provider is dominating the community. In case of Apache Ofbiz we don't encourage that. Its up to providers to decide how they want to use OfBiz for building their business.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Thanks and Regards
>>>>>>>> Anil Patel
>>>>>>>> HotWax Media Inc
>>>>>>>> Find us on the web at www.hotwaxmedia.com or Google Keyword "ofbiz"
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On Feb 24, 2010, at 10:15 AM, Jacques Le Roux wrote:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>                       
>>>>>>>>> Maybe the future of OFBiz in Europe (and even in USA it seems) will be harder...
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> http://fptiny.blogspot.com/2010/02/openerp-raises-3-million-euros.html
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Or maybe this ERP will not be Open-Source longer in the future...
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Actually it was the last of the Open-Source ERPs to not follow this way (though I"m not sure for ERP5)
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> The strategy : http://robertogaloppini.net/2009/06/01/open-source-business-strategy-openerp-and-long-term-sustainability/
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Jacques
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>                           
>>>>>>>                   
>>>>> -- 
>>>>> Matt Warnock <mw...@ridgecrestherbals.com>
>>>>> RidgeCrest Herbals, Inc.
>>>>> 
>>>>>           
>>>>       
>> 
>> 
>>  

Re: Was Community-Driven OFBiz a Mistake?

[Ruth Hoffman <rh...@aesolves.com>]

Hi David:

Glad you asked. I kind-of like how DWR has done it. Open source, Apache 
2.0 with sponsor links very subtle. 
(http://directwebremoting.org/dwr/index.html)

Just my opinion.
Ruth

David E Jones wrote:
> How?
>
> -David
>
>
> On Feb 25, 2010, at 11:03 AM, Ruth Hoffman wrote:
>
>   
>> David:
>> It doesn't have to be so "black" and "white". You can still have community driven software with the Apache license and enjoy sponsorship from commercial entities. It happens all the time.
>>
>> Ruth
>>
>> David E Jones wrote:
>>     
>>> Matt,
>>>
>>> You might be interested to hear that early in the life of OFBiz, and after technology investing recovered from the lull in 2000-2001, I was approached by a number of investors who wanted to turn OFBiz into a commercial open source project instead of a community-driven one (which would require a change in licensing to the GPL or something similar so that end-users would have an incentive to purchase licenses; would also require centralizing and/or license value added services instead of pushing for an open playing field). However, my intent from the beginning was to have OFBiz be a community-driven project so I stuck with that.
>>>
>>> Perhaps that was a mistake?
>>>
>>> About this comment: "So if you want an OFBiz solution, pay us and we'll get you a custom OFBiz solution-- otherwise, don't waste our time." That's pretty insulting and low-brow. If that were really the case then people who abandon other ERP software to work on OFBiz wouldn't be doing so because it is easier to customize... and yes, that is the main reason I hear from those experienced with other ERP software. Also, there would be no attempts whatsoever at documentation, and instead there are thousands of pages of it (in fact, probably too much for most people, making it harder to find the info they want, leading to complaints of no documentation when the fact is they just haven't bothered to read it).
>>>
>>> Take a look at the OFBiz service providers page and the PMC and committers page and see how much overlap there is between them. Here's the spoiler: there isn't much overlap at all. The vast majority of service providers never contribute back to the project. The vast majority of the business around OFBiz results in profit that contributors never see a penny of. If I were to estimate I'd say it's probably only 1-2% of the money that gets back to the smaller group that contributes 90% of the code. In other words, most of the customization work is done by people who don't contribute to the project, and who don't pay for training or any other sort of service. They figure it out on their own for the most part.
>>>
>>> On the other hand, if you think you can get my time for free just because I'm willing to share the intellectual property I create, then you're in for some big disappointment! And how could it be any other way?
>>>
>>> So here we go... we've got a community-driven project and people want it to be a commercial project. I've been pushing for years for community-driven software and trying to attract developers to help build this thing, and for some history about that and concepts related to it please see my blog:
>>>
>>> http://osofbiz.blogspot.com/
>>>
>>> There are a number of posts on this topic, and this one might be of particular interest:
>>>
>>> http://osofbiz.blogspot.com/2008/01/glass-cathedrals-and-community-versus.html
>>>
>>> So, this gets me back to the question I asked above... was all of this a mistake? Was I wrong about this approach? Is that the message I'm hearing more and more? Should I have gone the commercial route with the possibly higher pay out, and probably much cleaner and fancier looking resulting software, and significantly more marketing exposure, and at least being able to get the time of day from technology press folks?
>>>
>>> -David
>>>
>>>
>>> On Feb 24, 2010, at 4:46 PM, Matt Warnock wrote:
>>>
>>>  
>>>       
>>>> I have to agree with Ruth on this one.  The question is, what is the
>>>> OFBiz "community", is it users or developers?  The question has lots of
>>>> implications, and deserves careful thought.
>>>>
>>>> If venture capitalists (a community I know something about) are willing
>>>> to invest $3MM euro to increase OpenERP market share, then 1) they see a
>>>> product that can increase its revenues (and profits) by at least 10-100X
>>>> in the next 3-5 years, and 2) they see a path to liquidity (public
>>>> offering or sale), whereby they expect to recoup their investment.
>>>>
>>>> I agree with Jacques that OpenERP is an inferior solution.  Yet he loses
>>>> contracts to OpenERP.  Why?  Partly because OpenERP looks more polished
>>>> and finished, and appearances are in fact important.  However, the
>>>> bigger issue is that OpenERP is more user-friendly (meaning more
>>>> inviting to users, who are not developers).
>>>>
>>>> The general perception in the OFBiz community seems to be that if you
>>>> want an ERP solution, you will need to customize it.  For that, you need
>>>> a developer, and we are those developers.  So if you want an OFBiz
>>>> solution, pay us and we'll get you a custom OFBiz solution-- otherwise,
>>>> don't waste our time.  
>>>> Sorry, but that attitude is ass-backwards.  You have the cart driving
>>>> the horse.  Even record and movie companies (the most ass-backward
>>>> marketing people on the planet) know that they don't get people to buy
>>>> records without radio play, or movie tickets without trailers.  Even
>>>> low-life drug dealers grasp the simple marketing concept of the "loss
>>>> leader"-- you can get more people using your product by giving it away
>>>> for free, initially.  In my business, we give away lots of free samples
>>>> because it it the best way to get people converted to our products.
>>>> People need to know up front what value they are going to get, and also
>>>> how much it is going to cost. 
>>>> As an end-user with OpenERP, you get that information (I looked hard at
>>>> OpenERP a few months ago), but with OFBiz, you really don't.  You have
>>>> to look really hard (under the hood) to see the things that make OFBiz
>>>> better, and as developers, you probably all know what those advantages
>>>> are.  OFBiz's weaknesses, on the other hand, are right on the surface--
>>>> the very things that Ruth complains about.  
>>>> Choosing any ERP solution is a hard, painful task, and the initial
>>>> difficulty of evaluating and customizing OFBiz makes it a harder choice
>>>> than most.  Inertia (personal and institutional) definitely works
>>>> against acceptance and adoption of OFBiz, initially.  
>>>> If OFBiz had a polished, truly "OOTB" solution, then users could try it
>>>> and (hopefully) find it immediately useful, at least for some limited
>>>> applications.  Once the nose of the camel gets inside the tent, the rest
>>>> of the body will follow.  use breeds curiosity, and the incremental cost
>>>> (other than learning curve) of using more features and applications is
>>>> zero, so the learning process is encouraged.  Soon, the customer is
>>>> fully committed and using OFBiz for many things, but inevitably, there
>>>> are some customizations they would like to make.  Cha-ching!  Customers
>>>> create themselves.  Instead of a "missionary sale", you have more
>>>> customers than you can service, and they are looking for you, instead of
>>>> the reverse.
>>>>
>>>> That is the difference between OpenERP and OFBiz in a nutshell.  From a
>>>> user's perspective, OpenERP delivers benefits first and costs later,
>>>> while OFBiz demands costs up front and delivers the benefits later.
>>>> Which way do you think is the FASTEST path to a LARGE user community?
>>>> The venture capitalists have already cast THEIR vote.  
>>>> On Wed, 2010-02-24 at 14:31 -0500, Ruth Hoffman wrote:
>>>>    
>>>>         
>>>>> Hi Anil:
>>>>> I'm sure this will start an avalanche of responses all directing vitriol towards me. Rest assured I don't take any attacks personally:
>>>>>
>>>>> First off, IMHO, encouraging community contributions IS a problem for OFBiz. The "community" as you so correctly point out is one of software developers. There is much more to bringing a product to market, or more importantly, surviving to play another day, than software development and copious amounts of code contributed to a source code repository.
>>>>>
>>>>> Secondly, OFBiz will never survive, let alone grow, if there are no new adopters (end-users, service providers or whatever you want to call them). I further argue that the project won't get any new adopters by sticking its collective head in the sand and ignoring real world issues like release management, quality control and my favorite, documentation and training.
>>>>>
>>>>> And to your point about selling "services". I'm curious. Since you brought it up, what services does HotWax sell that help promote the health and well being of the OFBiz project? Or is that not what you do? Maybe I don't understand.
>>>>>
>>>>> Well I for one feel really comfortable saying that I sell a "product" that helps promote the health and well being of OFBiz. Probably the only one out there? Not only that, my product is reasonably priced to encourage new OFBiz adopters. If you can afford to buy a week's worth of Starbuck lattes, you can afford to purchase my product. Does that make me a "Company" backing OFBiz? LOL!
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>> Ruth
>>>>>
>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------
>>>>> Find me on the web at http://www.myofbiz.com or Google keyword "myofbiz"
>>>>> ruth.hoffman@myofbiz.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>> Ruth
>>>>>
>>>>> Anil Patel wrote:
>>>>>      
>>>>>           
>>>>>> Here is another blog http://news.cnet.com/8301-13505_3-10458449-16.html
>>>>>>
>>>>>> One interesting issue these Company driven projects are struggling (evedent from reading these blogs) with is, encourage community to contribute. In Ofbiz we don't have this issue, Ofbiz is build on the concept of "Community driven software development" 
>>>>>> I feel confident that OfBiz will live longer and grow much more quickly then usual software open source software dragged by corporations. Ofbiz service providers can focus on their core activity "Sell services", and not really wonder around to get funding to keep project alive and moving.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks and Regards
>>>>>> Anil Patel
>>>>>> HotWax Media Inc
>>>>>> Find us on the web at www.hotwaxmedia.com or Google Keyword "ofbiz"
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Feb 24, 2010, at 11:14 AM, Anil Patel wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>        
>>>>>>             
>>>>>>> Jacques,
>>>>>>> Why do you think so?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It does not take too long to use 3M euros. And they are trying to make community contribution thing work for them, We got it working  for years.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In case of OpenERP, One provider is dominating the community. In case of Apache Ofbiz we don't encourage that. Its up to providers to decide how they want to use OfBiz for building their business.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks and Regards
>>>>>>> Anil Patel
>>>>>>> HotWax Media Inc
>>>>>>> Find us on the web at www.hotwaxmedia.com or Google Keyword "ofbiz"
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Feb 24, 2010, at 10:15 AM, Jacques Le Roux wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>          
>>>>>>>               
>>>>>>>> Maybe the future of OFBiz in Europe (and even in USA it seems) will be harder...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> http://fptiny.blogspot.com/2010/02/openerp-raises-3-million-euros.html
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Or maybe this ERP will not be Open-Source longer in the future...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Actually it was the last of the Open-Source ERPs to not follow this way (though I"m not sure for ERP5)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The strategy : http://robertogaloppini.net/2009/06/01/open-source-business-strategy-openerp-and-long-term-sustainability/
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Jacques
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>            
>>>>>>>>                 
>>>>>>        
>>>>>>             
>>>> -- 
>>>> Matt Warnock <mw...@ridgecrestherbals.com>
>>>> RidgeCrest Herbals, Inc.
>>>>
>>>>    
>>>>         
>>>  
>>>       
>
>
>   

Re: Was Community-Driven OFBiz a Mistake?

[David E Jones <de...@me.com>]

How?

-David


On Feb 25, 2010, at 11:03 AM, Ruth Hoffman wrote:

> David:
> It doesn't have to be so "black" and "white". You can still have community driven software with the Apache license and enjoy sponsorship from commercial entities. It happens all the time.
> 
> Ruth
> 
> David E Jones wrote:
>> Matt,
>> 
>> You might be interested to hear that early in the life of OFBiz, and after technology investing recovered from the lull in 2000-2001, I was approached by a number of investors who wanted to turn OFBiz into a commercial open source project instead of a community-driven one (which would require a change in licensing to the GPL or something similar so that end-users would have an incentive to purchase licenses; would also require centralizing and/or license value added services instead of pushing for an open playing field). However, my intent from the beginning was to have OFBiz be a community-driven project so I stuck with that.
>> 
>> Perhaps that was a mistake?
>> 
>> About this comment: "So if you want an OFBiz solution, pay us and we'll get you a custom OFBiz solution-- otherwise, don't waste our time." That's pretty insulting and low-brow. If that were really the case then people who abandon other ERP software to work on OFBiz wouldn't be doing so because it is easier to customize... and yes, that is the main reason I hear from those experienced with other ERP software. Also, there would be no attempts whatsoever at documentation, and instead there are thousands of pages of it (in fact, probably too much for most people, making it harder to find the info they want, leading to complaints of no documentation when the fact is they just haven't bothered to read it).
>> 
>> Take a look at the OFBiz service providers page and the PMC and committers page and see how much overlap there is between them. Here's the spoiler: there isn't much overlap at all. The vast majority of service providers never contribute back to the project. The vast majority of the business around OFBiz results in profit that contributors never see a penny of. If I were to estimate I'd say it's probably only 1-2% of the money that gets back to the smaller group that contributes 90% of the code. In other words, most of the customization work is done by people who don't contribute to the project, and who don't pay for training or any other sort of service. They figure it out on their own for the most part.
>> 
>> On the other hand, if you think you can get my time for free just because I'm willing to share the intellectual property I create, then you're in for some big disappointment! And how could it be any other way?
>> 
>> So here we go... we've got a community-driven project and people want it to be a commercial project. I've been pushing for years for community-driven software and trying to attract developers to help build this thing, and for some history about that and concepts related to it please see my blog:
>> 
>> http://osofbiz.blogspot.com/
>> 
>> There are a number of posts on this topic, and this one might be of particular interest:
>> 
>> http://osofbiz.blogspot.com/2008/01/glass-cathedrals-and-community-versus.html
>> 
>> So, this gets me back to the question I asked above... was all of this a mistake? Was I wrong about this approach? Is that the message I'm hearing more and more? Should I have gone the commercial route with the possibly higher pay out, and probably much cleaner and fancier looking resulting software, and significantly more marketing exposure, and at least being able to get the time of day from technology press folks?
>> 
>> -David
>> 
>> 
>> On Feb 24, 2010, at 4:46 PM, Matt Warnock wrote:
>> 
>>  
>>> I have to agree with Ruth on this one.  The question is, what is the
>>> OFBiz "community", is it users or developers?  The question has lots of
>>> implications, and deserves careful thought.
>>> 
>>> If venture capitalists (a community I know something about) are willing
>>> to invest $3MM euro to increase OpenERP market share, then 1) they see a
>>> product that can increase its revenues (and profits) by at least 10-100X
>>> in the next 3-5 years, and 2) they see a path to liquidity (public
>>> offering or sale), whereby they expect to recoup their investment.
>>> 
>>> I agree with Jacques that OpenERP is an inferior solution.  Yet he loses
>>> contracts to OpenERP.  Why?  Partly because OpenERP looks more polished
>>> and finished, and appearances are in fact important.  However, the
>>> bigger issue is that OpenERP is more user-friendly (meaning more
>>> inviting to users, who are not developers).
>>> 
>>> The general perception in the OFBiz community seems to be that if you
>>> want an ERP solution, you will need to customize it.  For that, you need
>>> a developer, and we are those developers.  So if you want an OFBiz
>>> solution, pay us and we'll get you a custom OFBiz solution-- otherwise,
>>> don't waste our time.  
>>> Sorry, but that attitude is ass-backwards.  You have the cart driving
>>> the horse.  Even record and movie companies (the most ass-backward
>>> marketing people on the planet) know that they don't get people to buy
>>> records without radio play, or movie tickets without trailers.  Even
>>> low-life drug dealers grasp the simple marketing concept of the "loss
>>> leader"-- you can get more people using your product by giving it away
>>> for free, initially.  In my business, we give away lots of free samples
>>> because it it the best way to get people converted to our products.
>>> People need to know up front what value they are going to get, and also
>>> how much it is going to cost. 
>>> As an end-user with OpenERP, you get that information (I looked hard at
>>> OpenERP a few months ago), but with OFBiz, you really don't.  You have
>>> to look really hard (under the hood) to see the things that make OFBiz
>>> better, and as developers, you probably all know what those advantages
>>> are.  OFBiz's weaknesses, on the other hand, are right on the surface--
>>> the very things that Ruth complains about.  
>>> Choosing any ERP solution is a hard, painful task, and the initial
>>> difficulty of evaluating and customizing OFBiz makes it a harder choice
>>> than most.  Inertia (personal and institutional) definitely works
>>> against acceptance and adoption of OFBiz, initially.  
>>> If OFBiz had a polished, truly "OOTB" solution, then users could try it
>>> and (hopefully) find it immediately useful, at least for some limited
>>> applications.  Once the nose of the camel gets inside the tent, the rest
>>> of the body will follow.  use breeds curiosity, and the incremental cost
>>> (other than learning curve) of using more features and applications is
>>> zero, so the learning process is encouraged.  Soon, the customer is
>>> fully committed and using OFBiz for many things, but inevitably, there
>>> are some customizations they would like to make.  Cha-ching!  Customers
>>> create themselves.  Instead of a "missionary sale", you have more
>>> customers than you can service, and they are looking for you, instead of
>>> the reverse.
>>> 
>>> That is the difference between OpenERP and OFBiz in a nutshell.  From a
>>> user's perspective, OpenERP delivers benefits first and costs later,
>>> while OFBiz demands costs up front and delivers the benefits later.
>>> Which way do you think is the FASTEST path to a LARGE user community?
>>> The venture capitalists have already cast THEIR vote.  
>>> On Wed, 2010-02-24 at 14:31 -0500, Ruth Hoffman wrote:
>>>    
>>>> Hi Anil:
>>>> I'm sure this will start an avalanche of responses all directing vitriol towards me. Rest assured I don't take any attacks personally:
>>>> 
>>>> First off, IMHO, encouraging community contributions IS a problem for OFBiz. The "community" as you so correctly point out is one of software developers. There is much more to bringing a product to market, or more importantly, surviving to play another day, than software development and copious amounts of code contributed to a source code repository.
>>>> 
>>>> Secondly, OFBiz will never survive, let alone grow, if there are no new adopters (end-users, service providers or whatever you want to call them). I further argue that the project won't get any new adopters by sticking its collective head in the sand and ignoring real world issues like release management, quality control and my favorite, documentation and training.
>>>> 
>>>> And to your point about selling "services". I'm curious. Since you brought it up, what services does HotWax sell that help promote the health and well being of the OFBiz project? Or is that not what you do? Maybe I don't understand.
>>>> 
>>>> Well I for one feel really comfortable saying that I sell a "product" that helps promote the health and well being of OFBiz. Probably the only one out there? Not only that, my product is reasonably priced to encourage new OFBiz adopters. If you can afford to buy a week's worth of Starbuck lattes, you can afford to purchase my product. Does that make me a "Company" backing OFBiz? LOL!
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Ruth
>>>> 
>>>> ----------------------------------------------------
>>>> Find me on the web at http://www.myofbiz.com or Google keyword "myofbiz"
>>>> ruth.hoffman@myofbiz.com
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Ruth
>>>> 
>>>> Anil Patel wrote:
>>>>      
>>>>> Here is another blog http://news.cnet.com/8301-13505_3-10458449-16.html
>>>>> 
>>>>> One interesting issue these Company driven projects are struggling (evedent from reading these blogs) with is, encourage community to contribute. In Ofbiz we don't have this issue, Ofbiz is build on the concept of "Community driven software development" 
>>>>> I feel confident that OfBiz will live longer and grow much more quickly then usual software open source software dragged by corporations. Ofbiz service providers can focus on their core activity "Sell services", and not really wonder around to get funding to keep project alive and moving.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Thanks and Regards
>>>>> Anil Patel
>>>>> HotWax Media Inc
>>>>> Find us on the web at www.hotwaxmedia.com or Google Keyword "ofbiz"
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Feb 24, 2010, at 11:14 AM, Anil Patel wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>>        
>>>>>> Jacques,
>>>>>> Why do you think so?
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> It does not take too long to use 3M euros. And they are trying to make community contribution thing work for them, We got it working  for years.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> In case of OpenERP, One provider is dominating the community. In case of Apache Ofbiz we don't encourage that. Its up to providers to decide how they want to use OfBiz for building their business.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Thanks and Regards
>>>>>> Anil Patel
>>>>>> HotWax Media Inc
>>>>>> Find us on the web at www.hotwaxmedia.com or Google Keyword "ofbiz"
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Feb 24, 2010, at 10:15 AM, Jacques Le Roux wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>          
>>>>>>> Maybe the future of OFBiz in Europe (and even in USA it seems) will be harder...
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> http://fptiny.blogspot.com/2010/02/openerp-raises-3-million-euros.html
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Or maybe this ERP will not be Open-Source longer in the future...
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Actually it was the last of the Open-Source ERPs to not follow this way (though I"m not sure for ERP5)
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> The strategy : http://robertogaloppini.net/2009/06/01/open-source-business-strategy-openerp-and-long-term-sustainability/
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Jacques
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>            
>>>>> 
>>>>>        
>>> -- 
>>> Matt Warnock <mw...@ridgecrestherbals.com>
>>> RidgeCrest Herbals, Inc.
>>> 
>>>    
>> 
>> 
>>