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Posted to users@tapestry.apache.org by Glen Stampoultzis <gs...@iinet.net.au> on 2004/03/16 23:51:57 UTC
Nasty book review.
Found this nasty book review of Tapestry in Action.
http://www.javaranch.com/bunkhouse/J2EE.jsp#1932394117
Not having the read the book yet I don't know how fair this is.
Glen Stampoultzis
gstamp@iinet.net.au
http://members.iinet.net.au/~gstamp/glen/
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Re: Nasty book review.
Posted by Todd O'Bryan <to...@mac.com>.
I, unfortunately, have to agree with the assessment. I think the book
is great for its information, but as an introductory tutorial, it
suffers from too much detail in some places, not enough in others, and
a major lack of what we in education call scaffolding: introducing new
information in small, easily understandable chunks that build up the
learner's knowledge without being overwhelming at any step. The book is
overwhelming a lot.
On the other hand, it's the best reference on Tapestry currently
available, and Mr. Ship obviously knows what he's talking about. It's
very hard for the creator of a concept to write an accessible and
useful primer, and not just in computer science. It could be worse in
so many ways.
It seems to me that webapp frameworks in general suffer from the
assumption that people come to them already knowing about how to
program webapps without them. But if the point of a framework is to
free people of the drudgery of developing without them, then
documentation needs to assume that the reader knows Java and is trying
to learn how to make webapps. We're in the same situation where we were
with Java in 1995 and 1996. All the Java books assumed their readers
were C++ programmers. Now books on Java are more likely to assume their
readers have never programmed before. The language has matured from a
tool that experienced programmers add to their repertoire to become the
first tool that novice programmers learn to wield. Webapp frameworks
have to make the same transition.
Don't get me wrong. The book is very well written, and I've found it
useful. However, if there'd been another choice, I would have looked
carefully at it. Maybe as Tapestry continues to mature, this book will
split into a reference book and a genuine tutorial. Both are absolutely
essential, and there are seeds of both in Tapestry In Action.
Todd
P.S. I've never written a book, would probably drive myself crazy
before I figured out the table of contents, and am generally a big
whiner. Take what I say with whatever size grain of salt you'd like.
On Mar 16, 2004, at 7:51 PM, Erik Hatcher wrote:
> Glen,
>
> Thanks for pointing this out to us. I have posted a reply in the
> comments section. I encourage others that disagree (or agree) with
> the review to also post comments.
>
> Erik
>
> On Mar 16, 2004, at 5:51 PM, Glen Stampoultzis wrote:
>
>>
>> Found this nasty book review of Tapestry in Action.
>>
>> http://www.javaranch.com/bunkhouse/J2EE.jsp#1932394117
>>
>> Not having the read the book yet I don't know how fair this is.
>>
>>
>>
>> Glen Stampoultzis
>> gstamp@iinet.net.au
>> http://members.iinet.net.au/~gstamp/glen/
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Re: Nasty book review.
Posted by Erik Hatcher <er...@ehatchersolutions.com>.
Glen,
Thanks for pointing this out to us. I have posted a reply in the
comments section. I encourage others that disagree (or agree) with the
review to also post comments.
Erik
On Mar 16, 2004, at 5:51 PM, Glen Stampoultzis wrote:
>
> Found this nasty book review of Tapestry in Action.
>
> http://www.javaranch.com/bunkhouse/J2EE.jsp#1932394117
>
> Not having the read the book yet I don't know how fair this is.
>
>
>
> Glen Stampoultzis
> gstamp@iinet.net.au
> http://members.iinet.net.au/~gstamp/glen/
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: tapestry-user-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: tapestry-user-help@jakarta.apache.org
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Re: Nasty book review.
Posted by Jamis Buck <jg...@email.byu.edu>.
Glen Stampoultzis wrote:
>
> Found this nasty book review of Tapestry in Action.
>
> http://www.javaranch.com/bunkhouse/J2EE.jsp#1932394117
>
> Not having the read the book yet I don't know how fair this is.
I do not have the dead-tree version of the book, but have been looking
over my coworkers' shoulders at their online versions of the book, and I
have to say that I do not agree with the reviewer.
I felt that the book was well written, and although the hangman app was
hard to relate to I have to admit that it is very difficult to come up
with a small Tapestry application that demonstrates the different
aspects of Tapestry. I can only congratulate Howard on a job well done,
overall, especially given the magnitude of the task.
I, for one, found Tapestry in Action to be well worth the wait.
--
Jamis Buck
jgb3@email.byu.edu
http://www.jamisbuck.org/jamis
ruby -h | ruby -e
'a=[];readlines.join.scan(/-(.)\[e|Kk(\S*)|le.l(..)e|#!(\S*)/) {|r| a <<
r.compact.first };puts "\n>#{a.join(%q/ /)}<\n\n"'
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Re: Nasty book review.
Posted by Michael Oliver <ol...@matrix-media.com>.
Well said Erik.
Ollie
On Tue, 2004-03-16 at 21:50, Erik Hatcher wrote:
> Shawn emphasizes an important point about books, especially ones on
> open source topics... and even more in the scenario of Tapestry which
> has superb (relative to other open source projects) free, robust, and
> attractive documentation...
>
> A book should not just reiterate online docs, it needs to add value
> that really is hard to capture in online documentation, like best
> practices and answer "why?" in detail.
>
> Todd's feedback is also quite valid and you can believe I'm taking what
> is said to heart personally as I'm wrapping up Lucene in Action myself.
> Writing a book on a topic you are intimate with makes it hard to see
> the bigger picture and approach the subject as a newcomer would
> appreciate. But writing a book on a topic you are not intimate with is
> unwise too. Therein lies the struggle of authors.
>
> Erik
>
>
> On Mar 16, 2004, at 9:33 PM, Shawn Church wrote:
>
> > I also disagree that the chapters do not mesh. The organization felt
> > natural to me, moving logically through the chapters. He claims the
> > book
> > concentrates more on the inner workings of Tapestry than on learning
> > how to
> > use it, but maybe he has not read the online user guide. I viewed the
> > book
> > as a supplement to the user guide, since I didn't see a lot of overlap
> > (except for Appendix D which helpfully covered the specification).
> >
> > My only complaint is that many key points, tips, and caveats were
> > described
> > throughout the book, but I would have liked an additional chapter (or
> > appendix) revisiting or at least summarizing some of this important
> > information. As I'm trying to begin using Tapestry, I'm thankful I
> > have the
> > pdf version since I can search for PageRenderListener or whatever for
> > review. I would advise anyone reading this book to take many notes
> > along
> > the way.
> >
> > I'm now at the fuzzy stage where I have exhausted most of the
> > resources I
> > can find on Tapestry and it is time to begin applying what I've
> > learned (or
> > should have learned). I feel that Tapestry may be the "right" way to
> > develop, but with deadlines and productivity issues it is a challenge
> > to
> > avoid reverting to more familiar ground. I have not yet decided
> > whether
> > Tapestry is for me, but the book was certainly helpful and nicely
> > presented.
> >
> > Shawn
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Glen Stampoultzis [mailto:gstamp@iinet.net.au]
> > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2004 4:52 PM
> > To: Tapestry users
> > Subject: Nasty book review.
> >
> >
> >
> > Found this nasty book review of Tapestry in Action.
> >
> > http://www.javaranch.com/bunkhouse/J2EE.jsp#1932394117
> >
> > Not having the read the book yet I don't know how fair this is.
> >
> >
> >
> > Glen Stampoultzis
> > gstamp@iinet.net.au
> > http://members.iinet.net.au/~gstamp/glen/
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: tapestry-user-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: tapestry-user-help@jakarta.apache.org
> >
> >
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>
>
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Re: Nasty book review.
Posted by Erik Hatcher <er...@ehatchersolutions.com>.
Shawn emphasizes an important point about books, especially ones on
open source topics... and even more in the scenario of Tapestry which
has superb (relative to other open source projects) free, robust, and
attractive documentation...
A book should not just reiterate online docs, it needs to add value
that really is hard to capture in online documentation, like best
practices and answer "why?" in detail.
Todd's feedback is also quite valid and you can believe I'm taking what
is said to heart personally as I'm wrapping up Lucene in Action myself.
Writing a book on a topic you are intimate with makes it hard to see
the bigger picture and approach the subject as a newcomer would
appreciate. But writing a book on a topic you are not intimate with is
unwise too. Therein lies the struggle of authors.
Erik
On Mar 16, 2004, at 9:33 PM, Shawn Church wrote:
> I also disagree that the chapters do not mesh. The organization felt
> natural to me, moving logically through the chapters. He claims the
> book
> concentrates more on the inner workings of Tapestry than on learning
> how to
> use it, but maybe he has not read the online user guide. I viewed the
> book
> as a supplement to the user guide, since I didn't see a lot of overlap
> (except for Appendix D which helpfully covered the specification).
>
> My only complaint is that many key points, tips, and caveats were
> described
> throughout the book, but I would have liked an additional chapter (or
> appendix) revisiting or at least summarizing some of this important
> information. As I'm trying to begin using Tapestry, I'm thankful I
> have the
> pdf version since I can search for PageRenderListener or whatever for
> review. I would advise anyone reading this book to take many notes
> along
> the way.
>
> I'm now at the fuzzy stage where I have exhausted most of the
> resources I
> can find on Tapestry and it is time to begin applying what I've
> learned (or
> should have learned). I feel that Tapestry may be the "right" way to
> develop, but with deadlines and productivity issues it is a challenge
> to
> avoid reverting to more familiar ground. I have not yet decided
> whether
> Tapestry is for me, but the book was certainly helpful and nicely
> presented.
>
> Shawn
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Glen Stampoultzis [mailto:gstamp@iinet.net.au]
> Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2004 4:52 PM
> To: Tapestry users
> Subject: Nasty book review.
>
>
>
> Found this nasty book review of Tapestry in Action.
>
> http://www.javaranch.com/bunkhouse/J2EE.jsp#1932394117
>
> Not having the read the book yet I don't know how fair this is.
>
>
>
> Glen Stampoultzis
> gstamp@iinet.net.au
> http://members.iinet.net.au/~gstamp/glen/
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: tapestry-user-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: tapestry-user-help@jakarta.apache.org
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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RE: Nasty book review.
Posted by Shawn Church <sh...@boxity.com>.
I have read the book (the pdf version), and I disagree with Sheriff
Bolinger's general assessment. I was delighted by the hangman example
because it covered many of the basics of Tapestry very early, and it was
more creative than the typical hello world. It doesn't matter whether or
not this is a "practical web application", because the point is to learn the
framework, not to lift example code in hopes of making it work in my
real-world application.
I also disagree that the chapters do not mesh. The organization felt
natural to me, moving logically through the chapters. He claims the book
concentrates more on the inner workings of Tapestry than on learning how to
use it, but maybe he has not read the online user guide. I viewed the book
as a supplement to the user guide, since I didn't see a lot of overlap
(except for Appendix D which helpfully covered the specification).
My only complaint is that many key points, tips, and caveats were described
throughout the book, but I would have liked an additional chapter (or
appendix) revisiting or at least summarizing some of this important
information. As I'm trying to begin using Tapestry, I'm thankful I have the
pdf version since I can search for PageRenderListener or whatever for
review. I would advise anyone reading this book to take many notes along
the way.
I'm now at the fuzzy stage where I have exhausted most of the resources I
can find on Tapestry and it is time to begin applying what I've learned (or
should have learned). I feel that Tapestry may be the "right" way to
develop, but with deadlines and productivity issues it is a challenge to
avoid reverting to more familiar ground. I have not yet decided whether
Tapestry is for me, but the book was certainly helpful and nicely presented.
Shawn
-----Original Message-----
From: Glen Stampoultzis [mailto:gstamp@iinet.net.au]
Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2004 4:52 PM
To: Tapestry users
Subject: Nasty book review.
Found this nasty book review of Tapestry in Action.
http://www.javaranch.com/bunkhouse/J2EE.jsp#1932394117
Not having the read the book yet I don't know how fair this is.
Glen Stampoultzis
gstamp@iinet.net.au
http://members.iinet.net.au/~gstamp/glen/
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