Re: [OT] Getting started is confusing [was] Re: Need advice between Shale or Struts-Faces

[Alexandre Poitras <al...@gmail.com>]

On 1/11/06, Rick Reumann <st...@reumann.net> wrote:
>
> Unfortunately I have to run out to do some things this afternoon, and
> can't reply in as much detail as I'd like to the below, but I'll quickly
> comment...
>
> Werner Punz wrote the following on 1/11/2006 10:51 AM:
> > Hi Rick the confusion you are talking about, is basically the same you
> > have by jumping onto any framework.
>
> I don't think that is the case. You might have trouble getting started
> with say Struts or Webwork but you are basically just looking up stuff
> on working with that 'framework' - You aren't having to discern "Can I
> just use JSF out of the box (whatever that box even is, as I forgot now
> how you even get just vanilla JSF)?" "Do I need MyFaces?" "Do I need
> "Oracle ADF?" "Do I need Shale?" Trust me I understand no new framework
> is really easy to learn but I'd like most of my framework to be self
> contained in jars related exactly "to" that framework. I understand with
> Struts I might want to get iBATIS or hibernate working with it, or maybe
> even Spring, but those areas are really truly separate from say Struts.
> I don't seem to get the same experience when trying to learn about JSF.


I think you are confusing by Faces because it is a specification. A spec. by
definition can have a lot of implementations, ie 3 in the JSF world Oracle
ADF, Apache MyFaces, SUN RI. Oracle ADF and Apache MyFaces both add custom
components throught subprojects. I don't think it is confusing once you
understand the premise that JSF is a speculation. The custom components are
all based on the same model whereas in Struts, you have to use Struts-menu,
Display-tag libs, ... In JSF everything is a component so you pick those you
want. Shale and Facelets are both technologies adressing some shortcoming of
JSF, what they didn't have the time to put in for example. Craig said a
couple of times (from what I remember), it would like Shale to in part a
testing ground for JSF 2.0.

I don't think it is so confusing but I would agree with you that JSF lack a
good community site. The document is rather sparse for the moment.
Hopefully, things will change. My advice would be to buy a book, you'll be
sure to have everything to understand the basic of JSF.



> Mind you that I had to move from JSF to Struts for a project a while
> > ago, and I had the same feeling backwards ;-)
>
> I would really have liked to see the path  you took to figuring out
> Struts. One of the nice things about Struts is A) You don't have to use
> all of the features at once and B) you can always fall back on the basic
> JSF/ServletAPI to bail you out when in a time crunch. In JSF can I use
> JSTL to create an simple form input that I'll be able to easily process
> in my backing bean using request.getParemeter(..) if I wanted? I'm
> guessing there is a way, but I doubt it would be that intuitive.
>
> >
> > A very good entry point into jsf is:
> > www.jsftutorials.net/
>
> I've looked at some of those before and I wasn't very impressed. I
> wasn't able to find an example of doing typical CRUD stuff... which is
> why when I found out just enough to be dangerous I wrote my own lesson
> http://www.learntechnology.net/jsf-crud.do to try to at least represent
> something someone might be doing in 'real life' but yet kept simple.
> (Actually I'd appreciate if you downloaded and tried it out - there is
> one part there that I really need fixed.. when you resort it runs into
> problems when clicking on the row to edit/delete).
>
> >
> > But as is I can say, get a good book, there you have the info mostly
> > centralized and preprepared for learning
> > (Although I cannot give the Kito book a good recommendation as entry
> > point, due to the fact, that it overwhelms you with sideinformation, it
> > is excellent as reference literature though, and probably the best
> > coverage of jsf technologywise, although much stuff in there nowadays
> > can be solved easier)
>
> Maybe I'll try that one. I tried another one (not going to name names)
> and I found the first 3 or 4 chapters helpful after that it was mostly
> just chapter after chapter of using components.
> >
> > And yes you cannot get anything worthwile done without any component or
> > extension pack, it is simply due to the fact that basic jsf limits
> > itself to the html controls, you get with basic jsf basically the same
> > set of components and to some degree functionality as with basic Struts.
> > But one of the points of JSF is the component packs, and I think it
> > should be more propagized that if you want to use JSF, also look for
> > components, otherwise you will be in for a dissapointment.
> > ADF as well as Tomahawk and others already are very extensive in their
> > user interface coverage, and things become better every month.
>
> Agreed, you need those component packs to do anything worthwhile and yet
> those component packs almost become as a critical to understand as the
> framework itself, which adds to way more confusing. If someone wrote an
> application with MyFaces components and some other team used some other
> components it's not going to be easy to just switch around. For example
> I had to use the Tomahawk <t:saveState ...> tag .. does Oracle ADF have
> that? It drastically changes what you can do within the form when you
> use t:saveState. And yes, all those guys do a great job putting out new
> things, but what if you don't want to wait for a component to be
> enhanced? It's not like you can just jump out and code that part with
> straight HTML and that's the part I find frustrating.
>
> Sort off-topic but what do you use in JSF to create a display of List
> data from a  managedBean? I believe I was told to use DataTable and
> that's what I used in my lesson, but I thought that was rather limiting.
> Maybe I want to create a bunch of divs and don't want to be using
> t:column. Is there a Component equivalent of a simple forEach loop that
> works well with managedBean list content?
>
> Please don't get me wrong, I'm not anti-JSF - I really like a LOT of it.
> I just wish there was some kind of effort to bring a lot of this
> together into one 'framework' - I know this goes against a lot of the
> open source thinking, but if Shale is that useful, which I believe it
> is, I'd like to see maybe absorbed into something like MyFaces.. is that
> a possibility? It's just confusing about what you truly need to get to
> be productive.
>
>
> --
> Rick
>
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--
Alexandre Poitras
Québec, Canada