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Posted to users@tomcat.apache.org by Coty Sutherland <cs...@apache.org> on 2021/05/19 19:28:05 UTC
#tomcat on Freenode?
Hi all,
I was just notified about some mess going on with Freenode which has
seemingly resulted in a mass exodus of users from the freenode servers.
There are some updates available at
https://gist.github.com/joepie91/df80d8d36cd9d1bde46ba018af497409/ which
make it seem like we should no longer point users to #tomcat on freenode
(we point to it on https://tomcat.apache.org/irc.html).
Should we take any action on that, like remove the page or update it to
point to https://libera.chat/ after we establish a channel there? I'm not
sure how much value there is/was in the freenode channel because questions
are so infrequent, so we may be able to safely drop the reference.
Thanks,
Coty
Re: #tomcat on Freenode?
Posted by Christopher Schultz <ch...@christopherschultz.net>.
Coty,
On 9/15/21 10:08, Coty Sutherland wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> It's been quite a while now and all of the communities that I'm a part of
> have moved from Freenode to Libera.Chat at this point. I can't even access
> Freenode now without jumping through some hoops to get new credentials, so
> I'm definitely not doing that. Some users in #tomcat on libera.chat have
> pointed out that we still reference Freenode from our project page even
> though none of us are there anymore. Should we just remove the irc page at
> this point? Or do we want to update it to point to libera.chat? If there
> are no objections, I'll just update the reference.
>
+1 to updating the reference to point to Libra.Chat.
-chris
> On Tue, May 25, 2021 at 9:19 AM Coty Sutherland <cs...@apache.org> wrote:
>
>> On Thu, May 20, 2021 at 1:03 PM Christopher Schultz <
>> chris@christopherschultz.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Coty,
>>>
>>> On 5/19/21 15:28, Coty Sutherland wrote:
>>>> Hi all,
>>>>
>>>> I was just notified about some mess going on with Freenode which has
>>>> seemingly resulted in a mass exodus of users from the freenode servers.
>>>
>>> I read about this last night and I immediately thought "I wonder if Coty
>>> will say anything about this." :)
>>>
>>
>> lol, of course :P
>>
>>
>>> It's an "interesting" situation, for some values of "interesting."
>>>
>>> We (well, Coty) maintains a presence on #freenode because it appears to
>>> help some people. Probably a very small number of people (relatively
>>> speaking). Removing that resource may cause some people to fail to get
>>> help. OTOH, we don't maintain a presence on fb, AIM, or Parler and we
>>> prefer the mailing list for most interactions for a whole host of reasons.
>>>
>>
>> I wasn't exactly proposing that we remove the resource, just that in light
>> of all the people migrating away from freenode and the likelihood that the
>> Fedora community will do the same, I won't be available there going forward
>> (I really only started hanging out on freenode because the Fedora community
>> communicates there a lot). And since I was basically the only committer
>> hanging around, I didn't think it was worth keeping a reference on the
>> project page which makes it look as if the channel was an 'official' place
>> to get help. I'm equally as OK leaving it, but since I was the only person
>> paying it any attention I thought it was worth asking how others thought :)
>>
>>
>>> I don't think there are any people who are using #freenode because they
>>> don't trust the ASF infrastructure. I think they just want to use IRC.
>>> (Which, for those who are unfamiliar, is like Slack but without all the
>>> stupid cat photos.) #freenode was great because you didn't have to pay
>>> The Man to run an IRC channel/server for you and you also didn't have to
>>> run it yourself. It was a nice, shared infrastructure. All of that still
>>> exists. It's just got a bad taste to it because something that was free
>>> and grassroots is now owned by a corporation and Corporations Are Bad
>>> m'kay.
>>>
>>> If we want to provide support via IRC, there is nothing wrong with
>>> #freenode in spite of recent events, IMHO.
>>>
>>> I think the question should be "is a realtime support system appropriate
>>> for our community?" I tend to think not, but I'm not the only one here.
>>>
>>
>> I wouldn't call what is being provided in #tomcat on freenode "realtime
>> support" haha There's maybe one question a month there on average (at least
>> when I'm online during the week), and sometimes they even go unanswered
>> depending on who is available at the time.
>>
>>
>>> If we are going to "quit" #freenode, should we put our efforts into
>>> pointing people to the mailing list(s) instead of pointing them to
>>> another competing platform? I think we should funnel people to the
>>> mailing lists. If the mailing list has too high a bar, then I guess we
>>> can point them to Slack. (Does Slack require an account? Requiring
>>> signup sucks. At least subscribing to a mailing list doesn't mean you
>>> need another entry in your password safe.)
>>>
>>> Anyhow, I'd love to hear what others think. But I would suggest that you
>>> consider your motivations before doing anything. Specifically:
>>>
>>> 1. Why abandon #freenode?
>>>
>>> 2. Why move to anything other than mailing-list?
>>>
>>
>> I agree, we should drive everyone to mailing lists but not everyone likes
>> them so having a few options is good for the community IMO. Also, we aren't
>> really abandoning anything because we don't really maintain it, it's led by
>> community folk as far as I know; I'm not a moderator. I was just suggesting
>> that if it's not a resource we're actively maintaining that we maybe
>> shouldn't point to it from the project page.
>>
>>
>>> -chris
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@tomcat.apache.org
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@tomcat.apache.org
>>>
>>>
>
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Re: #tomcat on Freenode?
Posted by Coty Sutherland <cs...@apache.org>.
Hi all,
It's been quite a while now and all of the communities that I'm a part of
have moved from Freenode to Libera.Chat at this point. I can't even access
Freenode now without jumping through some hoops to get new credentials, so
I'm definitely not doing that. Some users in #tomcat on libera.chat have
pointed out that we still reference Freenode from our project page even
though none of us are there anymore. Should we just remove the irc page at
this point? Or do we want to update it to point to libera.chat? If there
are no objections, I'll just update the reference.
On Tue, May 25, 2021 at 9:19 AM Coty Sutherland <cs...@apache.org> wrote:
> On Thu, May 20, 2021 at 1:03 PM Christopher Schultz <
> chris@christopherschultz.net> wrote:
>
>> Coty,
>>
>> On 5/19/21 15:28, Coty Sutherland wrote:
>> > Hi all,
>> >
>> > I was just notified about some mess going on with Freenode which has
>> > seemingly resulted in a mass exodus of users from the freenode servers.
>>
>> I read about this last night and I immediately thought "I wonder if Coty
>> will say anything about this." :)
>>
>
> lol, of course :P
>
>
>> It's an "interesting" situation, for some values of "interesting."
>>
>> We (well, Coty) maintains a presence on #freenode because it appears to
>> help some people. Probably a very small number of people (relatively
>> speaking). Removing that resource may cause some people to fail to get
>> help. OTOH, we don't maintain a presence on fb, AIM, or Parler and we
>> prefer the mailing list for most interactions for a whole host of reasons.
>>
>
> I wasn't exactly proposing that we remove the resource, just that in light
> of all the people migrating away from freenode and the likelihood that the
> Fedora community will do the same, I won't be available there going forward
> (I really only started hanging out on freenode because the Fedora community
> communicates there a lot). And since I was basically the only committer
> hanging around, I didn't think it was worth keeping a reference on the
> project page which makes it look as if the channel was an 'official' place
> to get help. I'm equally as OK leaving it, but since I was the only person
> paying it any attention I thought it was worth asking how others thought :)
>
>
>> I don't think there are any people who are using #freenode because they
>> don't trust the ASF infrastructure. I think they just want to use IRC.
>> (Which, for those who are unfamiliar, is like Slack but without all the
>> stupid cat photos.) #freenode was great because you didn't have to pay
>> The Man to run an IRC channel/server for you and you also didn't have to
>> run it yourself. It was a nice, shared infrastructure. All of that still
>> exists. It's just got a bad taste to it because something that was free
>> and grassroots is now owned by a corporation and Corporations Are Bad
>> m'kay.
>>
>> If we want to provide support via IRC, there is nothing wrong with
>> #freenode in spite of recent events, IMHO.
>>
>> I think the question should be "is a realtime support system appropriate
>> for our community?" I tend to think not, but I'm not the only one here.
>>
>
> I wouldn't call what is being provided in #tomcat on freenode "realtime
> support" haha There's maybe one question a month there on average (at least
> when I'm online during the week), and sometimes they even go unanswered
> depending on who is available at the time.
>
>
>> If we are going to "quit" #freenode, should we put our efforts into
>> pointing people to the mailing list(s) instead of pointing them to
>> another competing platform? I think we should funnel people to the
>> mailing lists. If the mailing list has too high a bar, then I guess we
>> can point them to Slack. (Does Slack require an account? Requiring
>> signup sucks. At least subscribing to a mailing list doesn't mean you
>> need another entry in your password safe.)
>>
>> Anyhow, I'd love to hear what others think. But I would suggest that you
>> consider your motivations before doing anything. Specifically:
>>
>> 1. Why abandon #freenode?
>>
>> 2. Why move to anything other than mailing-list?
>>
>
> I agree, we should drive everyone to mailing lists but not everyone likes
> them so having a few options is good for the community IMO. Also, we aren't
> really abandoning anything because we don't really maintain it, it's led by
> community folk as far as I know; I'm not a moderator. I was just suggesting
> that if it's not a resource we're actively maintaining that we maybe
> shouldn't point to it from the project page.
>
>
>> -chris
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@tomcat.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@tomcat.apache.org
>>
>>
Re: #tomcat on Freenode?
Posted by Coty Sutherland <cs...@apache.org>.
On Thu, May 20, 2021 at 1:03 PM Christopher Schultz <
chris@christopherschultz.net> wrote:
> Coty,
>
> On 5/19/21 15:28, Coty Sutherland wrote:
> > Hi all,
> >
> > I was just notified about some mess going on with Freenode which has
> > seemingly resulted in a mass exodus of users from the freenode servers.
>
> I read about this last night and I immediately thought "I wonder if Coty
> will say anything about this." :)
>
lol, of course :P
> It's an "interesting" situation, for some values of "interesting."
>
> We (well, Coty) maintains a presence on #freenode because it appears to
> help some people. Probably a very small number of people (relatively
> speaking). Removing that resource may cause some people to fail to get
> help. OTOH, we don't maintain a presence on fb, AIM, or Parler and we
> prefer the mailing list for most interactions for a whole host of reasons.
>
I wasn't exactly proposing that we remove the resource, just that in light
of all the people migrating away from freenode and the likelihood that the
Fedora community will do the same, I won't be available there going forward
(I really only started hanging out on freenode because the Fedora community
communicates there a lot). And since I was basically the only committer
hanging around, I didn't think it was worth keeping a reference on the
project page which makes it look as if the channel was an 'official' place
to get help. I'm equally as OK leaving it, but since I was the only person
paying it any attention I thought it was worth asking how others thought :)
> I don't think there are any people who are using #freenode because they
> don't trust the ASF infrastructure. I think they just want to use IRC.
> (Which, for those who are unfamiliar, is like Slack but without all the
> stupid cat photos.) #freenode was great because you didn't have to pay
> The Man to run an IRC channel/server for you and you also didn't have to
> run it yourself. It was a nice, shared infrastructure. All of that still
> exists. It's just got a bad taste to it because something that was free
> and grassroots is now owned by a corporation and Corporations Are Bad
> m'kay.
>
> If we want to provide support via IRC, there is nothing wrong with
> #freenode in spite of recent events, IMHO.
>
> I think the question should be "is a realtime support system appropriate
> for our community?" I tend to think not, but I'm not the only one here.
>
I wouldn't call what is being provided in #tomcat on freenode "realtime
support" haha There's maybe one question a month there on average (at least
when I'm online during the week), and sometimes they even go unanswered
depending on who is available at the time.
> If we are going to "quit" #freenode, should we put our efforts into
> pointing people to the mailing list(s) instead of pointing them to
> another competing platform? I think we should funnel people to the
> mailing lists. If the mailing list has too high a bar, then I guess we
> can point them to Slack. (Does Slack require an account? Requiring
> signup sucks. At least subscribing to a mailing list doesn't mean you
> need another entry in your password safe.)
>
> Anyhow, I'd love to hear what others think. But I would suggest that you
> consider your motivations before doing anything. Specifically:
>
> 1. Why abandon #freenode?
>
> 2. Why move to anything other than mailing-list?
>
I agree, we should drive everyone to mailing lists but not everyone likes
them so having a few options is good for the community IMO. Also, we aren't
really abandoning anything because we don't really maintain it, it's led by
community folk as far as I know; I'm not a moderator. I was just suggesting
that if it's not a resource we're actively maintaining that we maybe
shouldn't point to it from the project page.
> -chris
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@tomcat.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@tomcat.apache.org
>
>
Re: #tomcat on Freenode?
Posted by Christopher Schultz <ch...@christopherschultz.net>.
Coty,
On 5/19/21 15:28, Coty Sutherland wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I was just notified about some mess going on with Freenode which has
> seemingly resulted in a mass exodus of users from the freenode servers.
I read about this last night and I immediately thought "I wonder if Coty
will say anything about this." :)
It's an "interesting" situation, for some values of "interesting."
We (well, Coty) maintains a presence on #freenode because it appears to
help some people. Probably a very small number of people (relatively
speaking). Removing that resource may cause some people to fail to get
help. OTOH, we don't maintain a presence on fb, AIM, or Parler and we
prefer the mailing list for most interactions for a whole host of reasons.
I don't think there are any people who are using #freenode because they
don't trust the ASF infrastructure. I think they just want to use IRC.
(Which, for those who are unfamiliar, is like Slack but without all the
stupid cat photos.) #freenode was great because you didn't have to pay
The Man to run an IRC channel/server for you and you also didn't have to
run it yourself. It was a nice, shared infrastructure. All of that still
exists. It's just got a bad taste to it because something that was free
and grassroots is now owned by a corporation and Corporations Are Bad m'kay.
If we want to provide support via IRC, there is nothing wrong with
#freenode in spite of recent events, IMHO.
I think the question should be "is a realtime support system appropriate
for our community?" I tend to think not, but I'm not the only one here.
If we are going to "quit" #freenode, should we put our efforts into
pointing people to the mailing list(s) instead of pointing them to
another competing platform? I think we should funnel people to the
mailing lists. If the mailing list has too high a bar, then I guess we
can point them to Slack. (Does Slack require an account? Requiring
signup sucks. At least subscribing to a mailing list doesn't mean you
need another entry in your password safe.)
Anyhow, I'd love to hear what others think. But I would suggest that you
consider your motivations before doing anything. Specifically:
1. Why abandon #freenode?
2. Why move to anything other than mailing-list?
-chris
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Re: #tomcat on Freenode?
Posted by Coty Sutherland <cs...@apache.org>.
On Thu, May 20, 2021 at 4:24 AM Rémy Maucherat <re...@apache.org> wrote:
> We should probably drop the IRC page and focus on the mailing lists for the
> website (they are the only official channel). A wiki page can mention other
> things like Slack.
>
Yeah, I like that idea. Let's drop the IRC page and add an entry for
libera.chat (there are a few people in #tomcat on there now) and later when
a Slack channel is created we can add it there too.
I'll leave it in case anyone has any other comments, and will remove
irc.html from the site next week.
Re: #tomcat on Freenode?
Posted by Rémy Maucherat <re...@apache.org>.
On Thu, May 20, 2021 at 9:57 AM Mark Thomas <ma...@apache.org> wrote:
> On 19/05/2021 20:28, Coty Sutherland wrote:
> > Hi all,
> >
> > I was just notified about some mess going on with Freenode which has
> > seemingly resulted in a mass exodus of users from the freenode servers.
> > There are some updates available at
> > https://gist.github.com/joepie91/df80d8d36cd9d1bde46ba018af497409/ which
> > make it seem like we should no longer point users to #tomcat on freenode
> > (we point to it on https://tomcat.apache.org/irc.html).
> >
> > Should we take any action on that, like remove the page or update it to
> > point to https://libera.chat/ after we establish a channel there? I'm
> not
> > sure how much value there is/was in the freenode channel because
> questions
> > are so infrequent, so we may be able to safely drop the reference.
>
> +1 to removing the freenode link
>
> If we replace it, I'd be happy with https://libera.chat/ but like you I
> wonder if we need it at all. We should probably add the Slack channel
> somewhere too.
>
We should probably drop the IRC page and focus on the mailing lists for the
website (they are the only official channel). A wiki page can mention other
things like Slack.
Rémy
>
> Mark
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@tomcat.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@tomcat.apache.org
>
>
Re: #tomcat on Freenode?
Posted by Mark Thomas <ma...@apache.org>.
On 19/05/2021 20:28, Coty Sutherland wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I was just notified about some mess going on with Freenode which has
> seemingly resulted in a mass exodus of users from the freenode servers.
> There are some updates available at
> https://gist.github.com/joepie91/df80d8d36cd9d1bde46ba018af497409/ which
> make it seem like we should no longer point users to #tomcat on freenode
> (we point to it on https://tomcat.apache.org/irc.html).
>
> Should we take any action on that, like remove the page or update it to
> point to https://libera.chat/ after we establish a channel there? I'm not
> sure how much value there is/was in the freenode channel because questions
> are so infrequent, so we may be able to safely drop the reference.
+1 to removing the freenode link
If we replace it, I'd be happy with https://libera.chat/ but like you I
wonder if we need it at all. We should probably add the Slack channel
somewhere too.
Mark
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