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Posted to docs@httpd.apache.org by Tetsuya Kitahata <te...@apache.org> on 2003/08/20 03:58:26 UTC
ja translation new comer
Greetings,
I [1] am a committer of jakarta.apache.org [2] and the current
editor (issuer) of 'The Apache Newsletter' [3].
[1] - http://cvs.apache.org/~tetsuya/
[2] - http://jakarta.apache.org/site/whoweare.html (bottom)
[3] - http://www.apache.org/newsletter/
I somehow have come to be interested in the translations
of jakarta.apache and hosted (a half) of the website
translations (into japanese) to my companies' website [4].
[4] - http://jakarta.terra-intl.com/
However, to be honest, I do not have much concerns
on Java compared with the other languages, and i found
that I rather want to contribute to Apache.Org *directly*,
because my motivation to the participation of the ASF activity
can be expressed as "Those who owe a great debt of
gratitude to the *opensource* should return the benefit to
*opensource*" principle.
--
I wondered how to put the translated jakarta.apache website (pages)
to apache.org, however, I found that there were still many rooms
for the contributions to this http-docs projects, especially
for the httpd-docs-2.0. (Right??)
# I presumed that there could be no rooms for the contribution
# ,especially japanese resources! ;-)
I've already understood the structure of the httpd-docs related
modules and I will be able to do the hard-work ;-) sooner
or later.
# Also, downloaded and imported *all* the archives which I can get from
# "MBOX Mail Archive" [5] to my favorite mail client, already.
[5] - http://httpd.apache.org/mail/
Just wanted to put my note to this mailing list.
Sincerely,
-- Tetsuya (tetsuya@apache.org)
-----------------------------------------------------
Tetsuya Kitahata -- Terra-International, Inc.
E-mail: tetsuya@apache.org
http://www.terra-intl.com/
P.S. I am a graduate of the Univ. of Tokyo, and entered in 1992.
I can recall the wonderful moment I first saw "It worked!" page from
Apache HTTP Server at that time.... Magical moment ;-)
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Re: mnemonic (Re: japanese error-docs, was Re: ja translation new comer)
Posted by Astrid Keßler <ke...@kess-net.de>.
> Other language resource files are using "Character Mnemonic Entities",
> it seems. I think that japanese translations should follow
> that principle.
> Fortunately, PHP.exe will convert japanese characters into
> "Character Mnemonic Entities" easily equivalent to them, it seems.
> I want to hear your opinions. (especially from Hayashi-san)
It seems, that I miss your point. What has PHP.exe to do with our docs
translation?
Kess
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Re: Character References for Japanese translations
Posted by Yoshiki Hayashi <yo...@xemacs.org>.
Erik Abele <er...@codefaktor.de> writes:
>> That's basically the translator's decision. Though I'd suggest not to
>> use
>> them, because they blow up the xml source 2 - 4 times (or more). Note
>> that
>> it's only a *source* issue. Character references are resolved during
>> the
>> source parsing stage and are inserted as raw iso-2022-jp into the
>> transformed
>> result. I'm wondering a bit why you want to make such an effort. I can
>> imagine (but I don't know) that's even more simple and efficient to
>> type in
>> the characters (or symbols, however) directly.
>
> I'm clearly with nd here; I can't see any reason why someone would want
> to only use character entities in a XML source which is transformed
> anyway and I would strongly suggest to *not* use them exclusively in
> the error doc typemaps because of the increased size (they are not
> transformed).
+1.
The funny things may happen if we insert characters encoded
in iso-2022-jp directly to typemap file but we are going to
use URI keyword to refer to separate file for Japanese
translation, I don't see any need to use character
references.
--
Yoshiki Hayashi
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Re: Character References for Japanese translations
Posted by Erik Abele <er...@codefaktor.de>.
On 07/09/2003, at 06:34, Tetsuya Kitahata wrote:
> Yoshiki Hayashi <yo...@xemacs.org> wrote:
>
>> The funny things may happen if we insert characters encoded
>> in iso-2022-jp directly to typemap file but we are going to
>> use URI keyword to refer to separate file for Japanese
>> translation, I don't see any need to use character
>
> If this (separation of the files) is true, I will put
> my plus one (and just my 2 YEN :-), too.
Yes, I'd also say the best way is to simply store 'special' languages
in separate files and then refer to these files from the typemap itself.
btw, the attached materials already contained separate files and
the corresponding patches to the typemap files, so there shouldn't
be a problem ;)
Cheers,
Erik
> Sincerely,
>
> -- Tetsuya. (tetsuya@apache.org)
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Re: Character References for Japanese translations
Posted by Tetsuya Kitahata <te...@apache.org>.
On Sat, 6 Sep 2003 20:24:18 +0200
Erik Abele <er...@codefaktor.de> wrote:
> >> Fortunately, PHP.exe will convert japanese characters into
> >> "Character Mnemonic Entities" easily equivalent to them, it seems.
> > Doh. Same question as Kess. PHP.exe? What do you want to do?
> I think Tetsuya wants to express that one can use a php script to
> transform text written in iso-2022-jp encoded form into character
> entities and vice versa, right Tetsuya?
> ...just my 0.02 Euro
Of course, YES :-)
(But ... not *vice versa*. Hey, you can check the reverse ones
using your favorite browser :-)
The best way is using something like "native2ascii" (i think it is
the best way to use native2ascii when thinking of the i18n/l10n/m17n
@ java), however, I am not sure what could be the best tool for the
others to use.
By the way, do you know that you can do the same thing (To know the
number of character reference) by using some HTML editors?
e.g. MS FrontPage :) :) .. by setting "charset" to us-ascii and
writing Japanese words to the page. (and see the HTML source)
Of course, I wanted to refer to FrontPage, however, I knew that
most of the folks here would not be willing to use that...
.... So, I've decide to make it secret :-)
--
Character References for Japanese translations and for other
Asian translations can co-exist I am sure, however, I was not
sure whether they could co-exist using the encodings peculiar
to their native languages, and it would be a smart way to
deal with the multilingualization.
I think there should be discussions more about this matter.
However,
Yoshiki Hayashi <yo...@xemacs.org> wrote:
> The funny things may happen if we insert characters encoded
> in iso-2022-jp directly to typemap file but we are going to
> use URI keyword to refer to separate file for Japanese
> translation, I don't see any need to use character
If this (separation of the files) is true, I will put
my plus one (and just my 2 YEN :-), too.
Sincerely,
-- Tetsuya. (tetsuya@apache.org)
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Re: Character References for Japanese translations
Posted by Erik Abele <er...@codefaktor.de>.
On 06/09/2003, at 12:04, André Malo wrote:
> * Tetsuya Kitahata wrote:
>
>> Other language resource files are using "Character Mnemonic Entities",
>
> Just to clarify, what we're talking about:
>
> &#number; or &#xhexnumber; are "character references", i.e. they refer
> to a
> particular code point of the Unicode charset.
> &somename; are generic entities, some of them are predefined as
> character
> references. We use the W3C character entity definitions for easier
> work and
> some own for better readability.
Yep, and the present error doc typemaps for example, are using them
only to replace single characters (e.g. the german umlauts). I don't
think it makes any sense to write a translated doc/typemap exclusively
with them (readability, size, old and broken clients?).
>> it seems. I think that japanese translations should follow
>> that principle.
>
> That's basically the translator's decision. Though I'd suggest not to
> use
> them, because they blow up the xml source 2 - 4 times (or more). Note
> that
> it's only a *source* issue. Character references are resolved during
> the
> source parsing stage and are inserted as raw iso-2022-jp into the
> transformed
> result. I'm wondering a bit why you want to make such an effort. I can
> imagine (but I don't know) that's even more simple and efficient to
> type in
> the characters (or symbols, however) directly.
I'm clearly with nd here; I can't see any reason why someone would want
to only use character entities in a XML source which is transformed
anyway and I would strongly suggest to *not* use them exclusively in
the error doc typemaps because of the increased size (they are not
transformed).
>> Fortunately, PHP.exe will convert japanese characters into
>> "Character Mnemonic Entities" easily equivalent to them, it seems.
>
> Doh. Same question as Kess. PHP.exe? What do you want to do?
I think Tetsuya wants to express that one can use a php script to
transform text written in iso-2022-jp encoded form into character
entities and vice versa, right Tetsuya?
...just my 0.02 €uro
Cheers,
Erik
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Character References for Japanese translations
Posted by André Malo <nd...@perlig.de>.
* Tetsuya Kitahata wrote:
> Other language resource files are using "Character Mnemonic Entities",
Just to clarify, what we're talking about:
&#number; or &#xhexnumber; are "character references", i.e. they refer to a
particular code point of the Unicode charset.
&somename; are generic entities, some of them are predefined as character
references. We use the W3C character entity definitions for easier work and
some own for better readability.
> it seems. I think that japanese translations should follow
> that principle.
That's basically the translator's decision. Though I'd suggest not to use
them, because they blow up the xml source 2 - 4 times (or more). Note that
it's only a *source* issue. Character references are resolved during the
source parsing stage and are inserted as raw iso-2022-jp into the transformed
result. I'm wondering a bit why you want to make such an effort. I can
imagine (but I don't know) that's even more simple and efficient to type in
the characters (or symbols, however) directly.
> Fortunately, PHP.exe will convert japanese characters into
> "Character Mnemonic Entities" easily equivalent to them, it seems.
Doh. Same question as Kess. PHP.exe? What do you want to do?
nd
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mnemonic (Re: japanese error-docs, was Re: ja translation new comer)
Posted by Tetsuya Kitahata <te...@apache.org>.
Hello HTTP-Docs Team,
I've checked all the files you (Erik) sent to this mailing
list. But ... here's one question:
Other language resource files are using "Character Mnemonic Entities",
it seems. I think that japanese translations should follow
that principle.
Fortunately, PHP.exe will convert japanese characters into
"Character Mnemonic Entities" easily equivalent to them, it seems.
I want to hear your opinions. (especially from Hayashi-san)
Sincerely,
-- Tetsuya. (tetsuya@apache.org)
P.S. &#***; style: "Character Mnemonic Entities"
On Tue, 26 Aug 2003 12:19:04 +0900
(Subject: Re: japanese error-docs, was Re: ja translation new comer)
Tetsuya Kitahata <te...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> Hi Erik,
>
> Oh, yes. I've already taken a look at those *error-docs* a
> few days ago or around, to tell the truth :)
>
> And, Okay ... I will make them merge to the current ones.
> I've done with a) & b) already.
>
> Thank you for forwarding to me a pretty nice work :)
>
> -- Tetsuya. (tetsuya@apache.org)
>
> On Mon, 25 Aug 2003 23:31:34 +0200
> (Subject: japanese error-docs, was Re: ja translation new comer)
> Erik Abele <er...@codefaktor.de> wrote:
>
> > On 21/08/2003, at 02:36, Tetsuya Kitahata wrote:
> >
> > > Hello, httpd-document team!
> > >
> > > ... licensing stuff ...
> >
> > Hi Tetsuya,
> >
> > I don't want to repeat what others already said about your efforts to
> > translate the ASL into Japanese. It's probably a nice start for a
> > translation and I understand your (good) intentions but I think that
> > you've unfortunately touched one of the most sensitive parts of the
> > ASF, and all this licensing stuff has to be handled with great, great
> > care...
> >
> > However, I'd like to welcome you over here at the httpd-docs project
> > and 'offer' you an alternative to the license.xml file ;->
> >
> > Well, on 17th November 2002 Hiroaki Kawai <hawk (at)
> > bcl.t.u-tokyo.ac.jp> posted a zip file as well as an accompanying patch
> > (both attached) with the Japanese translations of httpd's error
> > documents but unfortunately they never got reviewed properly and
> > therefore didn't make it into CVS. There is also a bug report (see
> > http://nagoya.apache.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=11521) connected to
> > this.
> >
> > If you're interested in taking this over, I'd suggest to start with the
> > following steps:
> >
> > a) have a look at the files in
> > http://cvs.apache.org/viewcvs/httpd-2.0/docs/error/ and become a bit
> > familiar with how the current system works; it's pretty easy and
> > there's even a README file (and you can of course always ask on this
> > list if you have any problems in understanding whats going on).
> >
> > b) review the attached translations
> >
> > c) re-work the attached patch to be able to apply it cleanly to the
> > current version of the typemap files
> >
> > d) send in the results and be happy to have done another piece of great
> > work!
> >
> > Okay, as said above, this is merely an offer, just if you're
> > interested... I certainly don't want to push any work on you; I just
> > came across this stuff while cleaning up one of my old harddisks and
> > had to think of *Tetsuya-san* instantly :)
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Erik
> >
>
> -----------------------------------------------------
> Tetsuya Kitahata -- Terra-International, Inc.
> E-mail: tetsuya@apache.org
> http://www.terra-intl.com/
>
>
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-----------------------------------------------------------
Tetsuya Kitahata -- Terra-International, Inc.
E-mail: tetsuya@apache.org http://www.terra-intl.com/
(Accredited Herrmann Brain Dominance Instrument Facilitator)
http://www.hbdi.com/
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Re: japanese error-docs, was Re: ja translation new comer
Posted by Tetsuya Kitahata <te...@apache.org>.
Hi Erik,
Oh, yes. I've already taken a look at those *error-docs* a
few days ago or around, to tell the truth :)
And, Okay ... I will make them merge to the current ones.
I've done with a) & b) already.
Thank you for forwarding to me a pretty nice work :)
-- Tetsuya. (tetsuya@apache.org)
On Mon, 25 Aug 2003 23:31:34 +0200
(Subject: japanese error-docs, was Re: ja translation new comer)
Erik Abele <er...@codefaktor.de> wrote:
> On 21/08/2003, at 02:36, Tetsuya Kitahata wrote:
>
> > Hello, httpd-document team!
> >
> > ... licensing stuff ...
>
> Hi Tetsuya,
>
> I don't want to repeat what others already said about your efforts to
> translate the ASL into Japanese. It's probably a nice start for a
> translation and I understand your (good) intentions but I think that
> you've unfortunately touched one of the most sensitive parts of the
> ASF, and all this licensing stuff has to be handled with great, great
> care...
>
> However, I'd like to welcome you over here at the httpd-docs project
> and 'offer' you an alternative to the license.xml file ;->
>
> Well, on 17th November 2002 Hiroaki Kawai <hawk (at)
> bcl.t.u-tokyo.ac.jp> posted a zip file as well as an accompanying patch
> (both attached) with the Japanese translations of httpd's error
> documents but unfortunately they never got reviewed properly and
> therefore didn't make it into CVS. There is also a bug report (see
> http://nagoya.apache.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=11521) connected to
> this.
>
> If you're interested in taking this over, I'd suggest to start with the
> following steps:
>
> a) have a look at the files in
> http://cvs.apache.org/viewcvs/httpd-2.0/docs/error/ and become a bit
> familiar with how the current system works; it's pretty easy and
> there's even a README file (and you can of course always ask on this
> list if you have any problems in understanding whats going on).
>
> b) review the attached translations
>
> c) re-work the attached patch to be able to apply it cleanly to the
> current version of the typemap files
>
> d) send in the results and be happy to have done another piece of great
> work!
>
> Okay, as said above, this is merely an offer, just if you're
> interested... I certainly don't want to push any work on you; I just
> came across this stuff while cleaning up one of my old harddisks and
> had to think of *Tetsuya-san* instantly :)
>
> Cheers,
> Erik
>
-----------------------------------------------------
Tetsuya Kitahata -- Terra-International, Inc.
E-mail: tetsuya@apache.org
http://www.terra-intl.com/
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Re: ja translation new comer
Posted by Yoshiki Hayashi <yo...@xemacs.org>.
Tetsuya Kitahata <te...@apache.org> writes:
> Hayashi-san, please verify the translated file I've put to
> docs at httpd.apache.org if you can read the file via MUA
> or online.
I'll try to review it as soon as possible but I've just
relocated so I cannot tell how soon that will be. I might
be able to do it tonight or tomorrow. I think I have some
free time until classes begin.
> P.S. Are you in US (El Paso, Texas??) now? >> Hayashi-san
Yes, it was a really long trip. I'm still trying to recover
form jet lag. :-)
--
Yoshiki Hayashi
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japanese error-docs, was Re: ja translation new comer
Posted by Erik Abele <er...@codefaktor.de>.
On 21/08/2003, at 02:36, Tetsuya Kitahata wrote:
> Hello, httpd-document team!
>
> ... licensing stuff ...
Hi Tetsuya,
I don't want to repeat what others already said about your efforts to
translate the ASL into Japanese. It's probably a nice start for a
translation and I understand your (good) intentions but I think that
you've unfortunately touched one of the most sensitive parts of the
ASF, and all this licensing stuff has to be handled with great, great
care...
However, I'd like to welcome you over here at the httpd-docs project
and 'offer' you an alternative to the license.xml file ;->
Well, on 17th November 2002 Hiroaki Kawai <hawk (at)
bcl.t.u-tokyo.ac.jp> posted a zip file as well as an accompanying patch
(both attached) with the Japanese translations of httpd's error
documents but unfortunately they never got reviewed properly and
therefore didn't make it into CVS. There is also a bug report (see
http://nagoya.apache.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=11521) connected to
this.
If you're interested in taking this over, I'd suggest to start with the
following steps:
a) have a look at the files in
http://cvs.apache.org/viewcvs/httpd-2.0/docs/error/ and become a bit
familiar with how the current system works; it's pretty easy and
there's even a README file (and you can of course always ask on this
list if you have any problems in understanding whats going on).
b) review the attached translations
c) re-work the attached patch to be able to apply it cleanly to the
current version of the typemap files
d) send in the results and be happy to have done another piece of great
work!
Okay, as said above, this is merely an offer, just if you're
interested... I certainly don't want to push any work on you; I just
came across this stuff while cleaning up one of my old harddisks and
had to think of *Tetsuya-san* instantly :)
Cheers,
Erik
Re: ja translation new comer
Posted by Tetsuya Kitahata <te...@apache.org>.
Hello, httpd-document team!
CC: --- HAYASHI, Yoshiki - san
Okay, André. The licensing team can resolve one of the points
you said, I think.
Anyway, I know that there are a lot of "users" of Apache HTTP
Server and derivarable works in Japan. Sure, the original description
(I mean, English version) could be superior to the derivarable
translated license text. However, there's no reason not to make
the translation and put it as one of the "official" tranlation provided
by the ASF.
ASL is used by many non-httpd works, i know. If we make "one"
translated file, this will be re-used, of course.
Hayashi-san, please verify the translated file I've put to
docs at httpd.apache.org if you can read the file via MUA
or online.
Sincerely,
-- Tetsuya. (tetsuya@apache.org)
P.S. Are you in US (El Paso, Texas??) now? >> Hayashi-san
On Wed, 20 Aug 2003 22:08:59 +0200
(Subject: Re: ja translation new comer)
André Malo <nd...@perlig.de> wrote:
> * William A. Rowe, Jr. wrote:
>
> > At 10:47 AM 8/20/2003, Tetsuya Kitahata wrote:
> >
> >>I've created the "manual/license.xml" translation (into japanese).
> >>
> >>I think the "license" file could be one of the controversial
> >>issues, regarding the "accuracy" of the translation. If you
> >>need "assurance" of the quality of the translation, I am
> >>willing to put the confirmation of laywers in japan (my friends),
> >>sooner or later.
> >
> > This has come up - from the perspective that the license may not
> > be enforceable in some jurisdictions without the native translation.
> > At some point translations might become necessary.
> >
> > On the other hand, you are right, it is very controversial, in that one
> > minor issue in a single translation could weaken that provision across
> > all translations, or worse.
> >
> > This actually falls under the scope of the licensing committee, so
> > I'm punting this thread in that direction.
>
> ACK. Until it's resolved and approved (!) by the ASF I'm very -1 on committing
> it.
>
> Tetsuya, another point that may be not clear to you. The httpd-docs project
> welcomes all contributions -- of course -- but for translations we require at
> least one review by another native speaker. I'd suggest you contact Yoshiki
> Hayashi in order to coordinate your works (also to avoid duplicate work and
> the like).
>
> Thanks!
> nd
-----------------------------------------------------
Tetsuya Kitahata -- Terra-International, Inc.
E-mail: tetsuya@apache.org
http://www.terra-intl.com/
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Re: ja translation new comer
Posted by André Malo <nd...@perlig.de>.
* William A. Rowe, Jr. wrote:
> At 10:47 AM 8/20/2003, Tetsuya Kitahata wrote:
>
>>I've created the "manual/license.xml" translation (into japanese).
>>
>>I think the "license" file could be one of the controversial
>>issues, regarding the "accuracy" of the translation. If you
>>need "assurance" of the quality of the translation, I am
>>willing to put the confirmation of laywers in japan (my friends),
>>sooner or later.
>
> This has come up - from the perspective that the license may not
> be enforceable in some jurisdictions without the native translation.
> At some point translations might become necessary.
>
> On the other hand, you are right, it is very controversial, in that one
> minor issue in a single translation could weaken that provision across
> all translations, or worse.
>
> This actually falls under the scope of the licensing committee, so
> I'm punting this thread in that direction.
ACK. Until it's resolved and approved (!) by the ASF I'm very -1 on committing
it.
Tetsuya, another point that may be not clear to you. The httpd-docs project
welcomes all contributions -- of course -- but for translations we require at
least one review by another native speaker. I'd suggest you contact Yoshiki
Hayashi in order to coordinate your works (also to avoid duplicate work and
the like).
Thanks!
nd
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Re: ja translation new comer
Posted by Dirk-Willem van Gulik <di...@webweaving.org>.
On Wed, 20 Aug 2003, William A. Rowe, Jr. wrote:
> >I think the "license" file could be one of the controversial
> >issues, regarding the "accuracy" of the translation. If you
> >need "assurance" of the quality of the translation, I am
> >willing to put the confirmation of laywers in japan (my friends),
> >sooner or later.
>
> This has come up - from the perspective that the license may not
> be enforceable in some jurisdictions without the native translation.
> At some point translations might become necessary.
Eh - you want to be preceice here; generally when you have two entities
who are both in X then you want to make sure that their agrement is
constructed according to X law and habits. If the entities are in X and Y
then generally the law and language of the license granter is used (or the
Seller, etc - there is a whole international law framework specially for
this). So, say, a German developer using the GPL for his code , may well
need a german version. We may have this issue when we accept code from a
third party in Germany.
However... the apache end user license is 'special' in that it is an
agreement with the Apache Software Foundation, a Delaware, US Inc to some
other entity. So for _us_ (not for the general open source case) we are
fine with a License written in the US langauge and within the US framework
- and though it is nice to have translations to _explain_ the license; the
authoritative document of the Apache Software Foundation is, and will be,
in US English only.
Dw
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Re: ja translation new comer
Posted by "William A. Rowe, Jr." <wr...@rowe-clan.net>.
At 10:47 AM 8/20/2003, Tetsuya Kitahata wrote:
>I've created the "manual/license.xml" translation (into japanese).
>
>I think the "license" file could be one of the controversial
>issues, regarding the "accuracy" of the translation. If you
>need "assurance" of the quality of the translation, I am
>willing to put the confirmation of laywers in japan (my friends),
>sooner or later.
This has come up - from the perspective that the license may not
be enforceable in some jurisdictions without the native translation.
At some point translations might become necessary.
On the other hand, you are right, it is very controversial, in that one
minor issue in a single translation could weaken that provision across
all translations, or worse.
This actually falls under the scope of the licensing committee, so
I'm punting this thread in that direction.
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Re: ja translation new comer
Posted by Yoshiki Hayashi <yo...@xemacs.org>.
Tetsuya Kitahata <te...@apache.org> writes:
>> Japanese translation is mostly done on Japanese counterpart
>> of docs mailing list. You can find the information at
>> http://cvs.apache.jp/docs-project/
>
> Looked at it. BTW, "is mostly done"? or "had been mostly done"? :-)
It has been mostly done and will be done unless many new
contributors more fluent in English than in Japanese
participate in the project.
> If the patch mails won't come to this list, how can
> we measure their (translators') efforts?
They are credited in CVS commit logs. Even if the
dicussions were on this list, you can't evaluate the
contribution from each person unless you speak Japanese. If
you don't understand the translation, then the only
criterion you have is the amount of lines of translation.
It's like judging source code contribution by the lines of
code someone has written.
> Okay, i think you will make me a committer in this project
> when you feel they (nag mails) would be beyond your power :-)
I'm sorry to say this but you have to earn respect in this
community to be a committer. Being a committer in Jakarta
project doesn't automatically qualify as a committer in
httpd-docs project. I think the barrier is much lower if
you are a committer in other projects but you still need to
be familiar with the way things are done in the project.
> P.S. Personally, I do not like "task share list". This enforces
> people who have those responsibilities a lot, and at the same time
> discourages people who had no chance to raise their hands.
> (And make them not to raise their hands ... as a result, we lose
> *champion*ships, initiatives -- sad --)
> [PATCH], [PATCH] *nag* *nag* patching style would be more desirable
> and conform to the sublime *A PATCHY* philosophy :-)
It's more like courtesy to others. It's really a big waste
of time if two people independently work on the translation
of core.xml. Most of the time, we just go ahead and
translate. Because only a few people are working on
translation right now, there's little chance of duplicate
effort. And the all regular contributor has CVS commit
access on cvs.apache.jp, we don't send much mail to the
mailing list. But we (at least I) do declare the file we
are going to work if we think the cost of duplicate effort
is too high.
--
Yoshiki Hayashi
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Re: ja translation new comer
Posted by Tetsuya Kitahata <te...@apache.org>.
First off, I put the translated file encoded in Shift_JIS, it seems
(the previous post to this list). Really sorry.
On Wed, 27 Aug 2003 21:25:39 -0600
Yoshiki Hayashi <yo...@xemacs.org> wrote:
> Yes, we need more contributions. Japanese translation
> project really needs more help.
I see.
> Japanese translation is mostly done on Japanese counterpart
> of docs mailing list. You can find the information at
> http://cvs.apache.jp/docs-project/
Looked at it. BTW, "is mostly done"? or "had been mostly done"? :-)
> It's actually a bit out of date so if you have any
> questions, don't hesitate to ask us. We don't strictly
> follow the procedure described there.
Okay. Much relieved at it.
> The job most in need is reviewing the translation. Because
> I'm virtually the only person reviewing Japanese translation
> done by others, there're a number of translations not yet
> committed to apache.org repository. To tell you the truth,
> reviewing is not the very fun thing to do. There's always
> an ego problem so you must be careful not to upset the
> original translator. The only time reviewing becomes easy
> is when translation is so good you have nothing to do. This
> is not often the case, though. Most of the time, I myself
> have to rewrite some of my own translation because the first
> draft is almost always not good enough.
Haha. I think many lurkers here in this mailing list
can speak up and join to the transalation. And .. okay,
I'll review them, too.
If the patch mails won't come to this list, how can
we measure their (translators') efforts?
> If you'd rather do new translations, that will be fine,
> too. But don't bark on me if those don't get committed to
> apache.org repository in timely manner. :-)
:-)
Okay, i think you will make me a committer in this project
when you feel they (nag mails) would be beyond your power :-)
> Anyways, welcome to the project.
Thank you. I am very glad to work (?) with you (ALL).
Sincerely,
-- Tetsuya. (tetsuya@apache.org)
P.S. Personally, I do not like "task share list". This enforces
people who have those responsibilities a lot, and at the same time
discourages people who had no chance to raise their hands.
(And make them not to raise their hands ... as a result, we lose
*champion*ships, initiatives -- sad --)
[PATCH], [PATCH] *nag* *nag* patching style would be more desirable
and conform to the sublime *A PATCHY* philosophy :-)
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Re: ja translation new comer
Posted by Yoshiki Hayashi <yo...@xemacs.org>.
Welcome to the project!
Tetsuya Kitahata <te...@apache.org> writes:
> I wondered how to put the translated jakarta.apache website (pages)
> to apache.org, however, I found that there were still many rooms
> for the contributions to this http-docs projects, especially
> for the httpd-docs-2.0. (Right??)
>
> # I presumed that there could be no rooms for the contribution
> # ,especially japanese resources! ;-)
Yes, we need more contributions. Japanese translation
project really needs more help.
Japanese translation is mostly done on Japanese counterpart
of docs mailing list. You can find the information at
http://cvs.apache.jp/docs-project/
It's actually a bit out of date so if you have any
questions, don't hesitate to ask us. We don't strictly
follow the procedure described there.
The job most in need is reviewing the translation. Because
I'm virtually the only person reviewing Japanese translation
done by others, there're a number of translations not yet
committed to apache.org repository. To tell you the truth,
reviewing is not the very fun thing to do. There's always
an ego problem so you must be careful not to upset the
original translator. The only time reviewing becomes easy
is when translation is so good you have nothing to do. This
is not often the case, though. Most of the time, I myself
have to rewrite some of my own translation because the first
draft is almost always not good enough.
If you'd rather do new translations, that will be fine,
too. But don't bark on me if those don't get committed to
apache.org repository in timely manner. :-)
Anyways, welcome to the project.
--
Yoshiki Hayashi
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Re: ja translation new comer
Posted by Yoshiki Hayashi <yo...@xemacs.org>.
Tetsuya Kitahata <te...@apache.org> writes:
>> > <li>本ソフトウェアが組み込まれた製品の推薦あるいは宣伝用に、
>> > "Apache" 及び "Apache Software Foundation"の名称を、事前の文面での許可
>> > の無いまま使用してはなりません。apache@apache.orgにご連絡の上、
>> > 文面での許可を得るようにして下さい。</li>
>>
>> I don't think 「組み込まれた」 is a good translation of
>> derived. 「派生した」 is more common, I think.
>>
>> The latter sentence can give the feeling that written
>> permission is always granted. I'd translate it as
>> 「文面での許可を得るためには apache@apache.org に連絡してく
>> ださい。」
>
> Mmmm. Probably, this is just related to my Japanese sense of beauty,
> I prefer
> [apache@apache.orgにご連絡の上、文面での許可を得るようにして下さい。],
> often used in real business world (and contracts) and rather fluent
> Japanese phrase.
I still think the same as before. It gives me the
impression that most of the time written permission is
given. I don't care much about those contracts you
mentioned but I imagine those are used when they are willing
to grant permission. I read the original English sentence
as "If you ever want to use the name "Apache" or "Apache
Software Foundation" to promote your products, be sure to
contact apache@apache.org first. Depending on the situation
we might or might not give you the permission." Your
Japanese translation of the last sentence of section 4 is
like, "Contact apache@apache.org and get the written
permission." I don't think it has the same connotation.
> 「投稿」or「貢献/寄与」are very difficult to distinguish when we
> translate "CONTRIBUTION". The former makes us feel "easiness to
> contribute" and the latter rather "barriers for contribution".
> ("Apatchy spirits" taken into consideration, "投稿" might be
> more applicable in Apache Land :-)
We normally use 「貢献」 in open source software world. The
first meaning come to my mind when I see the word 「投稿」
is to submit something like a research paper. You can
submit valuable information but you can also submit rubbish.
I don't think you can just send a worthless patch to a
mailing list and claim the contribution. That's why I think
the word 「投稿」 is not an appropriate word for
contribution.
> Also, these sentences are "the most sensitive" part in this
> license agreement (In other words, if we translate these lines
> precisely, the other ones could be omitted :-P), so the "easy to read"
> could be of secondary importance :-)
I can't follow you here. What do you mean by "other ones"?
What I meant by readability is not about the word but the
syntax used in those sentences like the one in parentheses.
I don't know where you get the idea of my suggesting
imprecise translation. You can have readable and precise
translation. The one thing I don't know is whether it is
possible in legal documents.
> I've put "take 2" in this mail, attached, using more legal mode (L-Mode?)
> of expression :)
> Maybe, it can be more *fluent* japanese license agreement
> compared to the translations of Java 2, Standard Edition (J2SE)
> Specification :)
Well, I can say nothing about J2SE license because I haven't
read one. I won't read Japanese translation of English
license because most of the time those are poorly
translated.
I glanced through the translation but I won't do detail
review of this one. I'd like to stay away from legal things
as much as possible. I cannot find obvious mistakes so I
don't mind using this as a basis for Japanese translation.
--
Yoshiki Hayashi
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Re: ja translation new comer
Posted by Tetsuya Kitahata <te...@apache.org>.
Hello, Hayashi-san, ALL
On Wed, 27 Aug 2003 22:07:52 -0600
Yoshiki Hayashi <yo...@xemacs.org> wrote:
> On the encoding of the translation, starting from <example>,
> US-ASCII characters are changed to JIS X 0201 Roman
> characters. Because of that, the document probably isn't a
> valid XML document. If your text editor does funny things
> with those characters, I suggest you to run nkf -j.
I think transformation of '" -> "' has been needed.
I've done for now.
--
Most of your comments made sense to me. Thanks a lot.
Only:
> > <li>本ソフトウェアが組み込まれた製品の推薦あるいは宣伝用に、
> > "Apache" 及び "Apache Software Foundation"の名称を、事前の文面での許可
> > の無いまま使用してはなりません。apache@apache.orgにご連絡の上、
> > 文面での許可を得るようにして下さい。</li>
>
> I don't think 「組み込まれた」 is a good translation of
> derived. 「派生した」 is more common, I think.
>
> The latter sentence can give the feeling that written
> permission is always granted. I'd translate it as
> 「文面での許可を得るためには apache@apache.org に連絡してく
> ださい。」
Mmmm. Probably, this is just related to my Japanese sense of beauty,
I prefer
[apache@apache.orgにご連絡の上、文面での許可を得るようにして下さい。],
often used in real business world (and contracts) and rather fluent
Japanese phrase.
> I don't think 「投稿」 is the correct translation for
> "contributor". We normally use 「貢献」. I believe
> translation here would be improved for more readability but
> there are lots of legal words so it might be better to ask
> lawyers how to translate them.
「投稿」or「貢献/寄与」are very difficult to distinguish when we
translate "CONTRIBUTION". The former makes us feel "easiness to
contribute" and the latter rather "barriers for contribution".
("Apatchy spirits" taken into consideration, "投稿" might be
more applicable in Apache Land :-)
Anyway, in this "ASL" sentence, 「貢献/寄与」is preferable rather
than 「投稿」, I agree. (In other documents, contribute/contribution
should be [投稿] rather than [貢献/寄与] in most of the cases)
Also, these sentences are "the most sensitive" part in this
license agreement (In other words, if we translate these lines
precisely, the other ones could be omitted :-P), so the "easy to read"
could be of secondary importance :-)
> > <p>本ソフトウェアの移植は、イリノイ大学アーバナ・シャンペイン校のスーパーコンピューターアプリケーション・ナショナルセンタによって元々書かれたパブリックドメインのソフトウェアをベースとして行われております。</p>
> Portion is not porting. Portion means a part of something
> so translation would be
Right, deeeefinitely. I am slow on the uptake on every midnights as well
as every mornings. ;-)
--
I've put "take 2" in this mail, attached, using more legal mode (L-Mode?)
of expression :)
Maybe, it can be more *fluent* japanese license agreement
compared to the translations of Java 2, Standard Edition (J2SE)
Specification :)
-----------------------------------------------------
Tetsuya Kitahata -- Terra-International, Inc.
E-mail: tetsuya@apache.org
http://www.terra-intl.com/
Re: ja translation new comer
Posted by Yoshiki Hayashi <yo...@xemacs.org>.
I don't know the outcome of license team discussion but I'll
comment on the translation anyway. IANAL so there maybe
those obscure words used by legal documents but I might
rephrase them because I can't recognize them.
On the encoding of the translation, starting from <example>,
US-ASCII characters are changed to JIS X 0201 Roman
characters. Because of that, the document probably isn't a
valid XML document. If your text editor does funny things
with those characters, I suggest you to run nkf -j.
Tetsuya Kitahata <te...@apache.org> writes:
> <p>
> 改変の有無を問わず、以下の要件が満たされれば、ソースコード形式あるい
> はバイナリ形式での再頒布及び利用が許可されます。
> </p>
I'd swap first two clauses to read like 「以下の要件が満たさ
れれば、改変の有無を問わず」...
> <ol>
> <li>ソースコードの再頒布を行う場合、上記の著作権に関する表記／ここで示されている要件の表記／以下の免責事項の表記をそのまま残しておく必要があります。</li>
I don't know why you use 「／」 here. Why not 「と」 or
simply 「、」? The same goes for other 「／」.
> <li>バイナリ形式での再頒布を行う場合は、上記の著作権に関する表記・ここで示されている要件の表記・以下の免責事項の表記を複製し、頒布物に付随する文書および（あるいは）別資料に組み入れる必要があります。</li>
The usage of 「・」 looks inconsistent from the above.
I may also change the translation of "and/or" part to
「頒布物に付随する文書および別資料の両方もしくはどれかに組み
入れる必要があります。」
> <li>再頒布用のエンドユーザ文書がもしあれば、以下の謝辞を入れる必要があります。 <example>
I will move 「もし」 to the start of the sentence.
> <p>上記の謝辞は、ソフトウェア本体、あるいは、Apache Software Foundation以外の第三者に対する謝辞が通常表示される箇所に、分かるように組み込んで頂いて差し支えありません。</p></li>
The original paragraph is talking only about the
acknowledgement in software itself, not other part of the
product.
If I translate it, it would be like
「エンドユーザ文書の代わりに、上記の謝辞はソフトウェア本体に
第三者に対する謝辞が通常表示される箇所があれば、そこに表示さ
せることもできます。」
> <li>本ソフトウェアが組み込まれた製品の推薦あるいは宣伝用に、"Apache" 及び "Apache Software Foundation"の名称を、事前の文面での許可の無いまま使用してはなりません。apache@apache.orgにご連絡の上、文面での許可を得るようにして下さい。</li>
I don't think 「組み込まれた」 is a good translation of
derived. 「派生した」 is more common, I think.
The latter sentence can give the feeling that written
permission is always granted. I'd translate it as
「文面での許可を得るためには apache@apache.org に連絡してく
ださい。」
> <li>本ソフトウェアが組み込まれた製品に、Apache Groupへの事前の文面での許可の無い場合は、Apache"という名称それ自体、あるいは"Apache"と一部に名前がつかないようにして下さい。</li>
The same goes here for the translation of "derived".
I prefer 「Apache Group からの」 to 「Apache Group への」.
> <note>本ソフトウェアは、”ありのままに”提供されていますので、商用目的、特定目的に相応しいかどうかを含め、明示的あるいは暗示的な保証（ただし、それだけではありません）をいたしません。
I'm not sure about the LIMITED TO translation here. If I
were you, I'd say:
「本ソフトウェアは、「そのまま」の形で提供されています。商用
目的、特定目的への適合性に限らず、いかなる明示的、暗黙的な保
証もいたしません。」
> いかなる事態が発生しようとも、Apache Software Foundation あるいはその投稿メンバは、直接的・間接的・偶発的・特殊的・典型的・必然的な損害／損失（代用の商品やサービスの提供コスト---利用機会・データ・利益の損失：ビジネスの中断を含みます。但し、これに限った事ではありません）に対する責任を負わないものとします。それが例え、どのような原因で発生しようが、法的責任があろうが、契約上に示されていようが、強制法規上であろうが、または不法行為（故意やその他を含む）であろうが、このソフトウェアの使用から発生するいかなる事に対しても責任を負いません。また、そのような損害の可能性が事前に何らかの形で指摘されていたとしても、同様です。</note>
I don't think 「投稿」 is the correct translation for
"contributor". We normally use 「貢献」. I believe
translation here would be improved for more readability but
there are lots of legal words so it might be better to ask
lawyers how to translate them.
> <p>本ソフトウェアは、Apache Software Foundation に対する、多くの方々の絶え間ない投稿によって成り立っています。Apache Software Foundation に関してもっと情報が必要である場合は、<<a href="http://www.apache.org/">http://www.apache.org/</a>>をご覧になって下さい。</p>
The same for "contribution" here.
> <p>本ソフトウェアの移植は、イリノイ大学アーバナ・シャンペイン校のスーパーコンピューターアプリケーション・ナショナルセンタによって元々書かれたパブリックドメインのソフトウェアをベースとして行われております。</p>
Portion is not porting. Portion means a part of something
so translation would be
<p>本ソフトウェアの一部は、イリノイ大学アーバナ・シャンペイ
ン校のスーパーコンピュータアプリケーション・ナショナルセンタ
いよって書かれたパブリックドメインのソフトウェアをベースにし
ています。</p>
These are the comments from brief review. I found there's
an unofficial Japanese translation of ASL 1.1 at
http://www.ingrid.org/jajakarta/LICENSE-ja
I recommend you to have a look at it.
--
Yoshiki Hayashi
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Re: ja translation new comer
Posted by Tetsuya Kitahata <te...@apache.org>.
Hello,
I've created the "manual/license.xml" translation (into japanese).
I think the "license" file could be one of the controversial
issues, regarding the "accuracy" of the translation. If you
need "assurance" of the quality of the translation, I am
willing to put the confirmation of laywers in japan (my friends),
sooner or later.
-- Tetsuya Kitahata. (tetsuya@apache.org)
Index: license.xml.meta
===================================================================
RCS file: /home/cvspublic/httpd-2.0/docs/manual/license.xml.meta,v
retrieving revision 1.1
diff -u -r1.1 license.xml.meta
--- license.xml.meta 11 Apr 2003 19:47:24 -0000 1.1
+++ license.xml.meta 20 Aug 2003 15:35:40 -0000
@@ -7,5 +7,6 @@
<variants>
<variant>en</variant>
+ <variant>ja</variant>
</variants>
</metafile>