You are viewing a plain text version of this content. The canonical link for it is here.
Posted to diversity@apache.org by Jim Jagielski <ji...@jaguNET.com> on 2019/04/03 11:57:24 UTC
Re: {Action by April 5] Vote on best time for the D&I committee
discussion call
Consider the effort along the lines of development... all development
needs to be done on list.
I think (I could be wrong) Sam's suggestion regarding a call
was to discuss options on the effort (eg: president's cmmt, etc...)
and not about the actual "details" of the ins and outs.
Discussing the proposal details of the effort should definitely be done
on list. Yes, a call may help things happen more "quickly" but that
should not be the prime or main consideration... we baseline
mailing lists for all development (and, as I said, this *is* development)
for a very clear reason. The idea of working out details regarding
Diversity and *Inclusion* using a method that for sure *excludes*
people is irony writ large.
CCing diversity@ so the thread can move there.
> On Apr 2, 2019, at 8:43 PM, Griselda Cuevas <gr...@google.com.INVALID> wrote:
>
> Sam suggested a call, so that's why I initiated.
>
>
> I think a call will help work out quickly a document we can socialize in
> the mailing list.
>
>
>
> On Tue, Apr 2, 2019, 1:27 PM Jim Jagielski <ji...@jagunet.com> wrote:
>
>> Can I recommend instead of a call, using the newly created
>> mailing list... In general, Apache tries to avoid the use of
>> sync communication medium except when absolutely required.
>>
>> I think that esp for such a topic as D&I, starting the effort off
>> using a method that inherently disenfranchises people may
>> not be the wisest 1st step :)
>>
>> Cheers!
>>
>>> On Apr 2, 2019, at 3:53 PM, Griselda Cuevas <gr...@google.com.INVALID>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi everyone,
>>>
>>> Following up the original thread that sparked the creation of a
>> Diversity &
>>> Inclusion committee in the ASF [1], I'm coordinating a call/videocall to
>>> discuss the proposal details to the board.
>>>
>>> *Action by April 5th, 2019 @ midnight PST*
>>> If you're interested in being part of the committee and shaping the
>> request
>>> to the board, add your availability in this Doodle*:
>>> https://doodle.com/poll/52cce5zh77avryri
>>>
>>> *If you don't know how to use Doodle, read this:
>>> https://help.doodle.com/hc/en-us/articles/360012150073
>>>
>>> [1]
>>>
>> https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/5b88a314fd28ec3753fd9aa57fdf815fe9f7a64c5f60fb00e2d25bcf@%3Cdev.community.apache.org%3E
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@community.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@community.apache.org
>>
>>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: diversity-unsubscribe@apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: diversity-help@apache.org
Re: {Action by April 5] Vote on best time for the D&I committee discussion call
Posted by Gris Cuevas <gr...@apache.org>.
On 2019/04/03 13:28:08, Sam Ruby <ru...@intertwingly.net> wrote:
> [moving comdev back to bcc]
>
> On Wed, Apr 3, 2019 at 9:06 AM Jim Jagielski <ji...@jagunet.com> wrote:
> >
> > > On Apr 3, 2019, at 8:59 AM, Sam Ruby <ru...@intertwingly.net> wrote:
> > >
> > > On Wed, Apr 3, 2019 at 7:57 AM Jim Jagielski <ji...@jagunet.com> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> Consider the effort along the lines of development... all development
> > >> needs to be done on list.
> > >
> > > Not all committees operate along the lines of development.
> > > Independent of that, we often complement lists with calls, meetups,
> > > hackathons, etc.
> > >
> > > To the extent that this group does produce tangible products, the
> > > development of those products do need to follow the norms of the ASF;
> > > development may happen on or off list, but needs to be brought back to
> > > the list, and everybody given an opportunity to participate.
> > >
> >
> > Umm a "call/videocall to discuss the proposal details to the board."
> > certainly sounds like a "tangible product" to me.
> >
> > You are free to disagree. I think doing so would be a mistake.
>
> As I said, this has evolved in ways differently than I would have
> expected. My email to Griselda, copying Ross was as follows:
>
> >> Perhaps we should "meet" via call/video to discuss next steps? I'm
> >> concerned with all the various ways this organization has to discourage
> >> such efforts that it will eventually stall.
> >>
> >> I'm on the east coast, and have plenty of afternoon (my time) slots
> >> available tomorrow (Wednesday) and Thursday. I'm not available Friday.
> >> If that doesn't work out, we can shoot for next week.
>
> - Sam Ruby
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: diversity-unsubscribe@apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: diversity-help@apache.org
>
>
Hi Everyone,
I took a couple of days to analyze how to move this forward, and I decided to cancel the call. The main reason is that we need to create some value and have something concrete to discuss with the people interested in joining forces - I don't want to waste people's time. Additionally, I want to make sure we only have synchronous discussions when needed and with a clear purpose.
I'll cancel the call by the end of the weekend.
@Sam, I'd like to still connect and get your guidance and advice, I want to understand what you had in mind and the benefits from pursuing different options with this effort. I want to clarify that this is not a call for a private meeting, it's a request for mentorship on how to lead this.
In the meantime, I've started adding issues to the board, if you're reading this hoping to know how to get involved, please start monitoring issues and putting your name in them.
Happy Friday on this side of the world.
G
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: diversity-unsubscribe@apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: diversity-help@apache.org
Re: {Action by April 5] Vote on best time for the D&I committee
discussion call
Posted by Sam Ruby <ru...@intertwingly.net>.
[moving comdev back to bcc]
On Wed, Apr 3, 2019 at 9:06 AM Jim Jagielski <ji...@jagunet.com> wrote:
>
> > On Apr 3, 2019, at 8:59 AM, Sam Ruby <ru...@intertwingly.net> wrote:
> >
> > On Wed, Apr 3, 2019 at 7:57 AM Jim Jagielski <ji...@jagunet.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> Consider the effort along the lines of development... all development
> >> needs to be done on list.
> >
> > Not all committees operate along the lines of development.
> > Independent of that, we often complement lists with calls, meetups,
> > hackathons, etc.
> >
> > To the extent that this group does produce tangible products, the
> > development of those products do need to follow the norms of the ASF;
> > development may happen on or off list, but needs to be brought back to
> > the list, and everybody given an opportunity to participate.
> >
>
> Umm a "call/videocall to discuss the proposal details to the board."
> certainly sounds like a "tangible product" to me.
>
> You are free to disagree. I think doing so would be a mistake.
As I said, this has evolved in ways differently than I would have
expected. My email to Griselda, copying Ross was as follows:
>> Perhaps we should "meet" via call/video to discuss next steps? I'm
>> concerned with all the various ways this organization has to discourage
>> such efforts that it will eventually stall.
>>
>> I'm on the east coast, and have plenty of afternoon (my time) slots
>> available tomorrow (Wednesday) and Thursday. I'm not available Friday.
>> If that doesn't work out, we can shoot for next week.
- Sam Ruby
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: diversity-unsubscribe@apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: diversity-help@apache.org
Re: {Action by April 5] Vote on best time for the D&I committee
discussion call
Posted by Sam Ruby <ru...@intertwingly.net>.
[moving comdev back to bcc]
On Wed, Apr 3, 2019 at 9:06 AM Jim Jagielski <ji...@jagunet.com> wrote:
>
> > On Apr 3, 2019, at 8:59 AM, Sam Ruby <ru...@intertwingly.net> wrote:
> >
> > On Wed, Apr 3, 2019 at 7:57 AM Jim Jagielski <ji...@jagunet.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> Consider the effort along the lines of development... all development
> >> needs to be done on list.
> >
> > Not all committees operate along the lines of development.
> > Independent of that, we often complement lists with calls, meetups,
> > hackathons, etc.
> >
> > To the extent that this group does produce tangible products, the
> > development of those products do need to follow the norms of the ASF;
> > development may happen on or off list, but needs to be brought back to
> > the list, and everybody given an opportunity to participate.
> >
>
> Umm a "call/videocall to discuss the proposal details to the board."
> certainly sounds like a "tangible product" to me.
>
> You are free to disagree. I think doing so would be a mistake.
As I said, this has evolved in ways differently than I would have
expected. My email to Griselda, copying Ross was as follows:
>> Perhaps we should "meet" via call/video to discuss next steps? I'm
>> concerned with all the various ways this organization has to discourage
>> such efforts that it will eventually stall.
>>
>> I'm on the east coast, and have plenty of afternoon (my time) slots
>> available tomorrow (Wednesday) and Thursday. I'm not available Friday.
>> If that doesn't work out, we can shoot for next week.
- Sam Ruby
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@community.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@community.apache.org
Re: {Action by April 5] Vote on best time for the D&I committee
discussion call
Posted by Jim Jagielski <ji...@jaguNET.com>.
> On Apr 3, 2019, at 8:59 AM, Sam Ruby <ru...@intertwingly.net> wrote:
>
> On Wed, Apr 3, 2019 at 7:57 AM Jim Jagielski <ji...@jagunet.com> wrote:
>>
>> Consider the effort along the lines of development... all development
>> needs to be done on list.
>
> Not all committees operate along the lines of development.
> Independent of that, we often complement lists with calls, meetups,
> hackathons, etc.
>
> To the extent that this group does produce tangible products, the
> development of those products do need to follow the norms of the ASF;
> development may happen on or off list, but needs to be brought back to
> the list, and everybody given an opportunity to participate.
>
Umm a "call/videocall to discuss the proposal details to the board."
certainly sounds like a "tangible product" to me.
You are free to disagree. I think doing so would be a mistake.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@community.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@community.apache.org
Re: {Action by April 5] Vote on best time for the D&I committee
discussion call
Posted by Jim Jagielski <ji...@jaguNET.com>.
> On Apr 3, 2019, at 8:59 AM, Sam Ruby <ru...@intertwingly.net> wrote:
>
> On Wed, Apr 3, 2019 at 7:57 AM Jim Jagielski <ji...@jagunet.com> wrote:
>>
>> Consider the effort along the lines of development... all development
>> needs to be done on list.
>
> Not all committees operate along the lines of development.
> Independent of that, we often complement lists with calls, meetups,
> hackathons, etc.
>
> To the extent that this group does produce tangible products, the
> development of those products do need to follow the norms of the ASF;
> development may happen on or off list, but needs to be brought back to
> the list, and everybody given an opportunity to participate.
>
Umm a "call/videocall to discuss the proposal details to the board."
certainly sounds like a "tangible product" to me.
You are free to disagree. I think doing so would be a mistake.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: diversity-unsubscribe@apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: diversity-help@apache.org
Re: {Action by April 5] Vote on best time for the D&I committee
discussion call
Posted by Sam Ruby <ru...@intertwingly.net>.
On Wed, Apr 3, 2019 at 7:57 AM Jim Jagielski <ji...@jagunet.com> wrote:
>
> Consider the effort along the lines of development... all development
> needs to be done on list.
Not all committees operate along the lines of development.
Independent of that, we often complement lists with calls, meetups,
hackathons, etc.
To the extent that this group does produce tangible products, the
development of those products do need to follow the norms of the ASF;
development may happen on or off list, but needs to be brought back to
the list, and everybody given an opportunity to participate.
> I think (I could be wrong) Sam's suggestion regarding a call
> was to discuss options on the effort (eg: president's cmmt, etc...)
> and not about the actual "details" of the ins and outs.
Close, but this has rapidly evolved in a different direction from what
I originally requested. A president's committee is one of the options
being explored, and such would have a VP, and wanted an opportunity to
discuss this with Griselda (schedule permitting, including Ross). Not
to plot any diabolical schemes, but to set expectations and to make
myself available for questions. Should others be interested, I'd do
the same with them.
If there is interest in an initial call, or even a regular call (and
yes, some committees do that too), we should allow such to happen, as
long as the relevant portions of the meeting relating to development
efforts is brought back to the list.
> Discussing the proposal details of the effort should definitely be done
> on list. Yes, a call may help things happen more "quickly" but that
> should not be the prime or main consideration... we baseline
> mailing lists for all development (and, as I said, this *is* development)
> for a very clear reason. The idea of working out details regarding
> Diversity and *Inclusion* using a method that for sure *excludes*
> people is irony writ large.
Again, while there are part of this effort which undoubtedly will be
development, other parts may not be. Meetings with people from other
organizations in similar efforts will likely occur. Down the road,
there may be vendor selection activities.
> CCing diversity@ so the thread can move there.
Thanks! I've moved comdev to bcc.
- Sam Ruby
> > On Apr 2, 2019, at 8:43 PM, Griselda Cuevas <gr...@google.com.INVALID> wrote:
> >
> > Sam suggested a call, so that's why I initiated.
> >
> >
> > I think a call will help work out quickly a document we can socialize in
> > the mailing list.
> >
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Apr 2, 2019, 1:27 PM Jim Jagielski <ji...@jagunet.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Can I recommend instead of a call, using the newly created
> >> mailing list... In general, Apache tries to avoid the use of
> >> sync communication medium except when absolutely required.
> >>
> >> I think that esp for such a topic as D&I, starting the effort off
> >> using a method that inherently disenfranchises people may
> >> not be the wisest 1st step :)
> >>
> >> Cheers!
> >>
> >>> On Apr 2, 2019, at 3:53 PM, Griselda Cuevas <gr...@google.com.INVALID>
> >> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Hi everyone,
> >>>
> >>> Following up the original thread that sparked the creation of a
> >> Diversity &
> >>> Inclusion committee in the ASF [1], I'm coordinating a call/videocall to
> >>> discuss the proposal details to the board.
> >>>
> >>> *Action by April 5th, 2019 @ midnight PST*
> >>> If you're interested in being part of the committee and shaping the
> >> request
> >>> to the board, add your availability in this Doodle*:
> >>> https://doodle.com/poll/52cce5zh77avryri
> >>>
> >>> *If you don't know how to use Doodle, read this:
> >>> https://help.doodle.com/hc/en-us/articles/360012150073
> >>>
> >>> [1]
> >>>
> >> https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/5b88a314fd28ec3753fd9aa57fdf815fe9f7a64c5f60fb00e2d25bcf@%3Cdev.community.apache.org%3E
> >>
> >>
> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@community.apache.org
> >> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@community.apache.org
> >>
> >>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: diversity-unsubscribe@apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: diversity-help@apache.org
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: diversity-unsubscribe@apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: diversity-help@apache.org
Re: {Action by April 5] Vote on best time for the D&I committee
discussion call
Posted by Sam Ruby <ru...@intertwingly.net>.
On Wed, Apr 3, 2019 at 7:57 AM Jim Jagielski <ji...@jagunet.com> wrote:
>
> Consider the effort along the lines of development... all development
> needs to be done on list.
Not all committees operate along the lines of development.
Independent of that, we often complement lists with calls, meetups,
hackathons, etc.
To the extent that this group does produce tangible products, the
development of those products do need to follow the norms of the ASF;
development may happen on or off list, but needs to be brought back to
the list, and everybody given an opportunity to participate.
> I think (I could be wrong) Sam's suggestion regarding a call
> was to discuss options on the effort (eg: president's cmmt, etc...)
> and not about the actual "details" of the ins and outs.
Close, but this has rapidly evolved in a different direction from what
I originally requested. A president's committee is one of the options
being explored, and such would have a VP, and wanted an opportunity to
discuss this with Griselda (schedule permitting, including Ross). Not
to plot any diabolical schemes, but to set expectations and to make
myself available for questions. Should others be interested, I'd do
the same with them.
If there is interest in an initial call, or even a regular call (and
yes, some committees do that too), we should allow such to happen, as
long as the relevant portions of the meeting relating to development
efforts is brought back to the list.
> Discussing the proposal details of the effort should definitely be done
> on list. Yes, a call may help things happen more "quickly" but that
> should not be the prime or main consideration... we baseline
> mailing lists for all development (and, as I said, this *is* development)
> for a very clear reason. The idea of working out details regarding
> Diversity and *Inclusion* using a method that for sure *excludes*
> people is irony writ large.
Again, while there are part of this effort which undoubtedly will be
development, other parts may not be. Meetings with people from other
organizations in similar efforts will likely occur. Down the road,
there may be vendor selection activities.
> CCing diversity@ so the thread can move there.
Thanks! I've moved comdev to bcc.
- Sam Ruby
> > On Apr 2, 2019, at 8:43 PM, Griselda Cuevas <gr...@google.com.INVALID> wrote:
> >
> > Sam suggested a call, so that's why I initiated.
> >
> >
> > I think a call will help work out quickly a document we can socialize in
> > the mailing list.
> >
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Apr 2, 2019, 1:27 PM Jim Jagielski <ji...@jagunet.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Can I recommend instead of a call, using the newly created
> >> mailing list... In general, Apache tries to avoid the use of
> >> sync communication medium except when absolutely required.
> >>
> >> I think that esp for such a topic as D&I, starting the effort off
> >> using a method that inherently disenfranchises people may
> >> not be the wisest 1st step :)
> >>
> >> Cheers!
> >>
> >>> On Apr 2, 2019, at 3:53 PM, Griselda Cuevas <gr...@google.com.INVALID>
> >> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Hi everyone,
> >>>
> >>> Following up the original thread that sparked the creation of a
> >> Diversity &
> >>> Inclusion committee in the ASF [1], I'm coordinating a call/videocall to
> >>> discuss the proposal details to the board.
> >>>
> >>> *Action by April 5th, 2019 @ midnight PST*
> >>> If you're interested in being part of the committee and shaping the
> >> request
> >>> to the board, add your availability in this Doodle*:
> >>> https://doodle.com/poll/52cce5zh77avryri
> >>>
> >>> *If you don't know how to use Doodle, read this:
> >>> https://help.doodle.com/hc/en-us/articles/360012150073
> >>>
> >>> [1]
> >>>
> >> https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/5b88a314fd28ec3753fd9aa57fdf815fe9f7a64c5f60fb00e2d25bcf@%3Cdev.community.apache.org%3E
> >>
> >>
> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@community.apache.org
> >> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@community.apache.org
> >>
> >>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: diversity-unsubscribe@apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: diversity-help@apache.org
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@community.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@community.apache.org
Re: {Action by April 5] Vote on best time for the D&I committee
discussion call
Posted by Patricia Shanahan <pa...@acm.org>.
Please, everyone, be generous in interpreting messages, and avoid
escalation.
On 4/3/2019 6:36 AM, Naomi Slater wrote:
> I was being polite. whether or not you personally think a call is a good
> idea is not important in the context of other people wanting to do a call.
> and pointing that out is conducive to good community building. it is not
> demeaning or dismissive. throwing your weight around on the list to
> bikeshed other people's efforts is the sort of thing that quickly kills
> contributor enthusiasm. I have seen it happen
>
> On Wed, 3 Apr 2019 at 15:31, Jim Jagielski <ji...@jagunet.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>> On Apr 3, 2019, at 9:26 AM, Naomi Slater <no...@tumbolia.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> as you are not the person driving the call, I don't think it is
>>> particularly important that you don't see a rationale. our concern should
>>> not be *how* people "should" work, but that people *can* work, and in
>> ways
>>> that suit them. as long as they follow the basic principle that
>> discussion
>>> and decisions are brought back to the list
>>
>> I'm sorry you don't feel it's particularly important. It is that
>> sort of demeaning and dismissive attitude that should be squashed.
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: diversity-unsubscribe@apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: diversity-help@apache.org
>>
>>
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: diversity-unsubscribe@apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: diversity-help@apache.org
Re: {Action by April 5] Vote on best time for the D&I committee
discussion call
Posted by Naomi Slater <no...@tumbolia.org>.
I was being polite. whether or not you personally think a call is a good
idea is not important in the context of other people wanting to do a call.
and pointing that out is conducive to good community building. it is not
demeaning or dismissive. throwing your weight around on the list to
bikeshed other people's efforts is the sort of thing that quickly kills
contributor enthusiasm. I have seen it happen
On Wed, 3 Apr 2019 at 15:31, Jim Jagielski <ji...@jagunet.com> wrote:
>
>
> > On Apr 3, 2019, at 9:26 AM, Naomi Slater <no...@tumbolia.org> wrote:
> >
> >
> > as you are not the person driving the call, I don't think it is
> > particularly important that you don't see a rationale. our concern should
> > not be *how* people "should" work, but that people *can* work, and in
> ways
> > that suit them. as long as they follow the basic principle that
> discussion
> > and decisions are brought back to the list
>
> I'm sorry you don't feel it's particularly important. It is that
> sort of demeaning and dismissive attitude that should be squashed.
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: diversity-unsubscribe@apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: diversity-help@apache.org
>
>
Re: {Action by April 5] Vote on best time for the D&I committee
discussion call
Posted by Naomi Slater <no...@tumbolia.org>.
I was being polite. whether or not you personally think a call is a good
idea is not important in the context of other people wanting to do a call.
and pointing that out is conducive to good community building. it is not
demeaning or dismissive. throwing your weight around on the list to
bikeshed other people's efforts is the sort of thing that quickly kills
contributor enthusiasm. I have seen it happen
On Wed, 3 Apr 2019 at 15:31, Jim Jagielski <ji...@jagunet.com> wrote:
>
>
> > On Apr 3, 2019, at 9:26 AM, Naomi Slater <no...@tumbolia.org> wrote:
> >
> >
> > as you are not the person driving the call, I don't think it is
> > particularly important that you don't see a rationale. our concern should
> > not be *how* people "should" work, but that people *can* work, and in
> ways
> > that suit them. as long as they follow the basic principle that
> discussion
> > and decisions are brought back to the list
>
> I'm sorry you don't feel it's particularly important. It is that
> sort of demeaning and dismissive attitude that should be squashed.
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: diversity-unsubscribe@apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: diversity-help@apache.org
>
>
Re: {Action by April 5] Vote on best time for the D&I committee
discussion call
Posted by Jim Jagielski <ji...@jaguNET.com>.
> On Apr 3, 2019, at 9:26 AM, Naomi Slater <no...@tumbolia.org> wrote:
>
>
> as you are not the person driving the call, I don't think it is
> particularly important that you don't see a rationale. our concern should
> not be *how* people "should" work, but that people *can* work, and in ways
> that suit them. as long as they follow the basic principle that discussion
> and decisions are brought back to the list
I'm sorry you don't feel it's particularly important. It is that
sort of demeaning and dismissive attitude that should be squashed.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: diversity-unsubscribe@apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: diversity-help@apache.org
Re: {Action by April 5] Vote on best time for the D&I committee
discussion call
Posted by Jim Jagielski <ji...@jaguNET.com>.
> On Apr 3, 2019, at 9:26 AM, Naomi Slater <no...@tumbolia.org> wrote:
>
>
> as you are not the person driving the call, I don't think it is
> particularly important that you don't see a rationale. our concern should
> not be *how* people "should" work, but that people *can* work, and in ways
> that suit them. as long as they follow the basic principle that discussion
> and decisions are brought back to the list
I'm sorry you don't feel it's particularly important. It is that
sort of demeaning and dismissive attitude that should be squashed.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@community.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@community.apache.org
Re: {Action by April 5] Vote on best time for the D&I committee
discussion call
Posted by Naomi Slater <no...@tumbolia.org>.
On Wed, 3 Apr 2019 at 15:03, Jim Jagielski <ji...@jagunet.com> wrote:
> Personally, I think the right course would be to take the advice
> that having a call when not specifically required to heart and to,
> instead, do all discussion, agenda setting, etc on the diversity@
> list and drop the idea of having a call at all.
> I personally can't see any over-riding and encompassing rationale
> for driving thru a concall. It sets a bad precedent.
>
there is nothing wrong with phone calls. and indeed, if there are people
who want to have them, I think it should be encouraged
as you are not the person driving the call, I don't think it is
particularly important that you don't see a rationale. our concern should
not be *how* people "should" work, but that people *can* work, and in ways
that suit them. as long as they follow the basic principle that discussion
and decisions are brought back to the list
Re: {Action by April 5] Vote on best time for the D&I committee
discussion call
Posted by Naomi Slater <no...@tumbolia.org>.
On Wed, 3 Apr 2019 at 15:03, Jim Jagielski <ji...@jagunet.com> wrote:
> Personally, I think the right course would be to take the advice
> that having a call when not specifically required to heart and to,
> instead, do all discussion, agenda setting, etc on the diversity@
> list and drop the idea of having a call at all.
> I personally can't see any over-riding and encompassing rationale
> for driving thru a concall. It sets a bad precedent.
>
there is nothing wrong with phone calls. and indeed, if there are people
who want to have them, I think it should be encouraged
as you are not the person driving the call, I don't think it is
particularly important that you don't see a rationale. our concern should
not be *how* people "should" work, but that people *can* work, and in ways
that suit them. as long as they follow the basic principle that discussion
and decisions are brought back to the list
Re: {Action by April 5] Vote on best time for the D&I committee
discussion call
Posted by Jim Jagielski <ji...@jaguNET.com>.
My last words on the subject:
> On Apr 3, 2019, at 8:46 AM, Griselda Cuevas <gr...@google.com.INVALID> wrote:
>
> It seems that the right course of action would be to prepare an agenda,
> distribute it in the diversity@apache.org list and gather input from folks
> who can't join.
Personally, I think the right course would be to take the advice
that having a call when not specifically required to heart and to,
instead, do all discussion, agenda setting, etc on the diversity@
list and drop the idea of having a call at all.
I personally can't see any over-riding and encompassing rationale
for driving thru a concall. It sets a bad precedent.
Again, all IMO.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: diversity-unsubscribe@apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: diversity-help@apache.org
Re: {Action by April 5] Vote on best time for the D&I committee
discussion call
Posted by Jim Jagielski <ji...@jaguNET.com>.
My last words on the subject:
> On Apr 3, 2019, at 8:46 AM, Griselda Cuevas <gr...@google.com.INVALID> wrote:
>
> It seems that the right course of action would be to prepare an agenda,
> distribute it in the diversity@apache.org list and gather input from folks
> who can't join.
Personally, I think the right course would be to take the advice
that having a call when not specifically required to heart and to,
instead, do all discussion, agenda setting, etc on the diversity@
list and drop the idea of having a call at all.
I personally can't see any over-riding and encompassing rationale
for driving thru a concall. It sets a bad precedent.
Again, all IMO.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@community.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@community.apache.org
Re: {Action by April 5] Vote on best time for the D&I committee
discussion call
Posted by Griselda Cuevas <gr...@google.com.INVALID>.
Thanks everyone, as I mentioned before my experience in the Apache Way
continues to grow, so I appreciate everyone's input and guidance, this felt
very much like a good mentorship process.
It all makes sense and I want to do this the right way.
It seems that the right course of action would be to prepare an agenda,
distribute it in the diversity@apache.org list and gather input from folks
who can't join. Then I will record or take notes of the call and distribute
back to the list, I'll open votings for any critical decision that needs to
be made and continue work on the mailing list.
@Jim, I think you are right, I might have misinterpreted Sam, so I'll let
him clarify the purpose of the synch before setting the agenda.
On Wed, Apr 3, 2019, 5:03 AM Jim Jagielski <ji...@jagunet.com> wrote:
> Consider the effort along the lines of development... all development
> needs to be done on list.
>
> I think (I could be wrong) Sam's suggestion regarding a call
> was to discuss options on the effort (eg: president's cmmt, etc...)
> and not about the actual "details" of the ins and outs.
>
> Discussing the proposal details of the effort should definitely be done
> on list. Yes, a call may help things happen more "quickly" but that
> should not be the prime or main consideration... we baseline
> mailing lists for all development (and, as I said, this *is* development)
> for a very clear reason. The idea of working out details regarding
> Diversity and *Inclusion* using a method that for sure *excludes*
> people is irony writ large.
>
> CCing diversity@ so the thread can move there.
>
> > On Apr 2, 2019, at 8:43 PM, Griselda Cuevas <gr...@google.com.INVALID>
> wrote:
> >
> > Sam suggested a call, so that's why I initiated.
> >
> >
> > I think a call will help work out quickly a document we can socialize in
> > the mailing list.
> >
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Apr 2, 2019, 1:27 PM Jim Jagielski <ji...@jagunet.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Can I recommend instead of a call, using the newly created
> >> mailing list... In general, Apache tries to avoid the use of
> >> sync communication medium except when absolutely required.
> >>
> >> I think that esp for such a topic as D&I, starting the effort off
> >> using a method that inherently disenfranchises people may
> >> not be the wisest 1st step :)
> >>
> >> Cheers!
> >>
> >>> On Apr 2, 2019, at 3:53 PM, Griselda Cuevas <gr...@google.com.INVALID>
> >> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Hi everyone,
> >>>
> >>> Following up the original thread that sparked the creation of a
> >> Diversity &
> >>> Inclusion committee in the ASF [1], I'm coordinating a call/videocall
> to
> >>> discuss the proposal details to the board.
> >>>
> >>> *Action by April 5th, 2019 @ midnight PST*
> >>> If you're interested in being part of the committee and shaping the
> >> request
> >>> to the board, add your availability in this Doodle*:
> >>> https://doodle.com/poll/52cce5zh77avryri
> >>>
> >>> *If you don't know how to use Doodle, read this:
> >>> https://help.doodle.com/hc/en-us/articles/360012150073
> >>>
> >>> [1]
> >>>
> >>
> https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/5b88a314fd28ec3753fd9aa57fdf815fe9f7a64c5f60fb00e2d25bcf@%3Cdev.community.apache.org%3E
> >>
> >>
> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@community.apache.org
> >> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@community.apache.org
> >>
> >>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@community.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@community.apache.org
>
>
Re: {Action by April 5] Vote on best time for the D&I committee
discussion call
Posted by Griselda Cuevas <gr...@google.com.INVALID>.
Thanks everyone, as I mentioned before my experience in the Apache Way
continues to grow, so I appreciate everyone's input and guidance, this felt
very much like a good mentorship process.
It all makes sense and I want to do this the right way.
It seems that the right course of action would be to prepare an agenda,
distribute it in the diversity@apache.org list and gather input from folks
who can't join. Then I will record or take notes of the call and distribute
back to the list, I'll open votings for any critical decision that needs to
be made and continue work on the mailing list.
@Jim, I think you are right, I might have misinterpreted Sam, so I'll let
him clarify the purpose of the synch before setting the agenda.
On Wed, Apr 3, 2019, 5:03 AM Jim Jagielski <ji...@jagunet.com> wrote:
> Consider the effort along the lines of development... all development
> needs to be done on list.
>
> I think (I could be wrong) Sam's suggestion regarding a call
> was to discuss options on the effort (eg: president's cmmt, etc...)
> and not about the actual "details" of the ins and outs.
>
> Discussing the proposal details of the effort should definitely be done
> on list. Yes, a call may help things happen more "quickly" but that
> should not be the prime or main consideration... we baseline
> mailing lists for all development (and, as I said, this *is* development)
> for a very clear reason. The idea of working out details regarding
> Diversity and *Inclusion* using a method that for sure *excludes*
> people is irony writ large.
>
> CCing diversity@ so the thread can move there.
>
> > On Apr 2, 2019, at 8:43 PM, Griselda Cuevas <gr...@google.com.INVALID>
> wrote:
> >
> > Sam suggested a call, so that's why I initiated.
> >
> >
> > I think a call will help work out quickly a document we can socialize in
> > the mailing list.
> >
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Apr 2, 2019, 1:27 PM Jim Jagielski <ji...@jagunet.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Can I recommend instead of a call, using the newly created
> >> mailing list... In general, Apache tries to avoid the use of
> >> sync communication medium except when absolutely required.
> >>
> >> I think that esp for such a topic as D&I, starting the effort off
> >> using a method that inherently disenfranchises people may
> >> not be the wisest 1st step :)
> >>
> >> Cheers!
> >>
> >>> On Apr 2, 2019, at 3:53 PM, Griselda Cuevas <gr...@google.com.INVALID>
> >> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Hi everyone,
> >>>
> >>> Following up the original thread that sparked the creation of a
> >> Diversity &
> >>> Inclusion committee in the ASF [1], I'm coordinating a call/videocall
> to
> >>> discuss the proposal details to the board.
> >>>
> >>> *Action by April 5th, 2019 @ midnight PST*
> >>> If you're interested in being part of the committee and shaping the
> >> request
> >>> to the board, add your availability in this Doodle*:
> >>> https://doodle.com/poll/52cce5zh77avryri
> >>>
> >>> *If you don't know how to use Doodle, read this:
> >>> https://help.doodle.com/hc/en-us/articles/360012150073
> >>>
> >>> [1]
> >>>
> >>
> https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/5b88a314fd28ec3753fd9aa57fdf815fe9f7a64c5f60fb00e2d25bcf@%3Cdev.community.apache.org%3E
> >>
> >>
> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@community.apache.org
> >> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@community.apache.org
> >>
> >>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@community.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@community.apache.org
>
>