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Posted to general@incubator.apache.org by Benson Margulies <bi...@gmail.com> on 2012/12/19 13:43:19 UTC
PPMC versus commiter
A recent vote thread on the private list led Christian Grobmeier to
wonder why a podling was simultaneously proposing someone for PPMC and
committer status.
A few bits of background:
1. TLP's vary in their behavior in this regard. Some maintain a
committer!=PMC distinction, and some do not.
2. Historically, podlings have *not* maintained this distinction, but
have waited for graduation to sort out the initial PMC members.
3. Legally/organizationally, since PPMC members don't have binding
votes, there's not much practical effect of making a distinction. At
the end of the day, only Incubator PMC members have binding votes.
4. Christian pointed out that the Open Office podling found the
process of sorting out the PMC/committer distinction to be painful.
With all respect, I don't see the OO podling as typical. It's sheer
size put it in a different category, and I for one do not feel
inclined to tell podlings to start keeping PPMC and committer distinct
on the basis of that history.
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Re: PPMC versus commiter
Posted by Christian Grobmeier <gr...@gmail.com>.
On Wed, Dec 19, 2012 at 9:44 PM, Benson Margulies <bi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I disagree. It should be up to the podling, not general@, to decide if
> they have C=PPMC. If Christian wants to hold such a vote at the
> podling, he should do so.
Christian does not want to do anything like this. He just wanted to
share his thoughts and one of the most important links to a fellow. He
thinks it is the podlings business how they want to run their project
and he just wanted to share his thoughts on it.
Please don't let me look like I would advocate anything. I am not
doing that. I have just one thing in mind: help a nice guy from
another project (i don't know the others) to make his project a
success. This whole thread gets far more attention than it deserves;
the only issue I see is that we need to educate Mentors that there is
one more point of view (assuming they know the first one)
Cheers
Christian
> As of this moment, C=PPMC on that podling, and this person is up for a
> vote. And you just exposed a vote onto general that should have
> remained on private@.
>
>
> On Wed, Dec 19, 2012 at 3:28 PM, Siegfried Goeschl
> <si...@it20one.at> wrote:
>> Hi folks,
>>
>> we are a bunch of people with a bunch of different opinions but at the end
>> of the day we have a vote - I suggest that we restart the vote along the
>> lines
>>
>> * Glen Mazza as new JSPWiki committer
>> * Glean Mazza as new PPMC member
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Siegfried Goeschl
>>
>>
>>
>> On 19.12.12 20:06, Andrea Pescetti wrote:
>>>
>>> On 19/12/2012 Benson Margulies wrote:
>>>>
>>>> With all respect, I don't see the OO podling as typical. It's sheer
>>>> size put it in a different category
>>>
>>>
>>> Indeed. In addition to what others already wrote, it should be noted that
>>> some of the OpenOffice committers only help with managing and checking in
>>> translations into a specific language, and are uninterested in the project
>>> governance at large.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Andrea.
>>>
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Re: PPMC versus commiter
Posted by Benson Margulies <bi...@gmail.com>.
I disagree. It should be up to the podling, not general@, to decide if
they have C=PPMC. If Christian wants to hold such a vote at the
podling, he should do so.
As of this moment, C=PPMC on that podling, and this person is up for a
vote. And you just exposed a vote onto general that should have
remained on private@.
On Wed, Dec 19, 2012 at 3:28 PM, Siegfried Goeschl
<si...@it20one.at> wrote:
> Hi folks,
>
> we are a bunch of people with a bunch of different opinions but at the end
> of the day we have a vote - I suggest that we restart the vote along the
> lines
>
> * Glen Mazza as new JSPWiki committer
> * Glean Mazza as new PPMC member
>
> Cheers,
>
> Siegfried Goeschl
>
>
>
> On 19.12.12 20:06, Andrea Pescetti wrote:
>>
>> On 19/12/2012 Benson Margulies wrote:
>>>
>>> With all respect, I don't see the OO podling as typical. It's sheer
>>> size put it in a different category
>>
>>
>> Indeed. In addition to what others already wrote, it should be noted that
>> some of the OpenOffice committers only help with managing and checking in
>> translations into a specific language, and are uninterested in the project
>> governance at large.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Andrea.
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>>
>
>
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Re: PPMC versus commiter
Posted by Siegfried Goeschl <si...@it20one.at>.
Hi folks,
we are a bunch of people with a bunch of different opinions but at the
end of the day we have a vote - I suggest that we restart the vote along
the lines
* Glen Mazza as new JSPWiki committer
* Glean Mazza as new PPMC member
Cheers,
Siegfried Goeschl
On 19.12.12 20:06, Andrea Pescetti wrote:
> On 19/12/2012 Benson Margulies wrote:
>> With all respect, I don't see the OO podling as typical. It's sheer
>> size put it in a different category
>
> Indeed. In addition to what others already wrote, it should be noted
> that some of the OpenOffice committers only help with managing and
> checking in translations into a specific language, and are
> uninterested in the project governance at large.
>
> Regards,
> Andrea.
>
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Re: PPMC versus commiter
Posted by Andrea Pescetti <pe...@apache.org>.
On 19/12/2012 Benson Margulies wrote:
> With all respect, I don't see the OO podling as typical. It's sheer
> size put it in a different category
Indeed. In addition to what others already wrote, it should be noted
that some of the OpenOffice committers only help with managing and
checking in translations into a specific language, and are uninterested
in the project governance at large.
Regards,
Andrea.
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Re: PPMC versus commiter
Posted by Shane Curcuru <as...@shanecurcuru.org>.
Similarly, I would not hold AOO as a typical podling - both the size,
complexity, and very, ahem, rich past history and personalities had a
large influence on their growth.
The real issue is: how do we clearly express these two possibilities for
podlings and potential donors/contributors to better understand them?
I.e. the concept of either c == (P)PMC or c != (P)PMC (or even P=NP).
Even better: is there a general consensus on either the IPMC recommended
best practice, or, failing that, on a discussion page that lays out what
kinds of things a podling community would want to evaluate and think
about when they are trying to make their decision on their policies?
This is another place where we don't need a rule - but we do need to
better explain in docs what the best practices (in this case, either
one) for Apache projects are.
- Shane, personally for c != PMC, because it makes it easier to invite
people earlier
On 12/19/2012 7:43 AM, Benson Margulies wrote:
> A recent vote thread on the private list led Christian Grobmeier to
> wonder why a podling was simultaneously proposing someone for PPMC and
> committer status.
>
> A few bits of background:
>
> 1. TLP's vary in their behavior in this regard. Some maintain a
> committer!=PMC distinction, and some do not.
>
> 2. Historically, podlings have *not* maintained this distinction, but
> have waited for graduation to sort out the initial PMC members.
>
> 3. Legally/organizationally, since PPMC members don't have binding
> votes, there's not much practical effect of making a distinction. At
> the end of the day, only Incubator PMC members have binding votes.
>
> 4. Christian pointed out that the Open Office podling found the
> process of sorting out the PMC/committer distinction to be painful.
>
> With all respect, I don't see the OO podling as typical. It's sheer
> size put it in a different category, and I for one do not feel
> inclined to tell podlings to start keeping PPMC and committer distinct
> on the basis of that history.
>
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Re: PPMC versus commiter
Posted by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>.
On Wed, Dec 19, 2012 at 1:43 PM, Benson Margulies <bi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> ...2. Historically, podlings have *not* maintained this distinction, but
> have waited for graduation to sort out the initial PMC members....
FWIW, Flex recently started electing people as committers only as a
first step, as some top-level projects do. But that podling is very
close to graduation (as in: should happen today ;-)
-Bertrand
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Re: PPMC versus commiter
Posted by Christian Grobmeier <gr...@gmail.com>.
On Wed, Dec 19, 2012 at 2:46 PM, Bertrand Delacretaz
<bd...@apache.org> wrote:
> On Wed, Dec 19, 2012 at 2:45 PM, Bertrand Delacretaz
> <bd...@apache.org> wrote:
>> ...Not all TLDs do the same...
>
> s/TLD/TLP/ (inheriting Christian's typos ;-)
Guess what I did the whole day - domain name things :)
> -Bertrand
>
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Re: PPMC versus commiter
Posted by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>.
On Wed, Dec 19, 2012 at 2:45 PM, Bertrand Delacretaz
<bd...@apache.org> wrote:
> ...Not all TLDs do the same...
s/TLD/TLP/ (inheriting Christian's typos ;-)
-Bertrand
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Re: PPMC versus commiter
Posted by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>.
On Wed, Dec 19, 2012 at 2:02 PM, Christian Grobmeier
<gr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, Dec 19, 2012 at 1:43 PM, Benson Margulies <bi...@gmail.com> wrote:
...
>> 2. Historically, podlings have *not* maintained this distinction, but
>> have waited for graduation to sort out the initial PMC members.
>
> Why do they behave differently than later as TLD?...
Not all TLDs do the same - some try to have committers == PMC, for
some its more or less the same set and AFAIK other PMCs always elect
people as committers first and eventually as PMC members as well.
There's no set rule. In general I like the committers == PMC idea, but
electing people as committers only sometimes allows for electing them
earlier which can be good.
-Bertrand
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Re: PPMC versus commiter
Posted by Joe Schaefer <jo...@yahoo.com>.
The thing to avoid is to wind up with a significant number of active contributors on a project who are not on the pmc. Separating committers from pmc members can be a symptom but it's manageable under the right conditions. Note committers aren't the only class of contributors that projects might be unintentionally excluding from pmc participation.
Sent from my iPhone
On Dec 19, 2012, at 11:50 AM, Ted Dunning <te...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Well, different policies make sense at different phases of growth. A new
> project is in growth mode and a major goal is to bind people into the
> project. C == PMC helps do that. If you have nothing to lose and
> everything to gain, then this is a pretty reasonable idea.
>
> A more mature project has something to lose so there is a case that C !=
> PMC makes some sense.
>
> On Wed, Dec 19, 2012 at 5:02 AM, Christian Grobmeier <gr...@gmail.com>wrote:
>
>>> 2. Historically, podlings have *not* maintained this distinction, but
>>> have waited for graduation to sort out the initial PMC members.
>>
>> Why do they behave differently than later as TLD?
>>
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Re: PPMC versus commiter
Posted by Ted Dunning <te...@gmail.com>.
Well, different policies make sense at different phases of growth. A new
project is in growth mode and a major goal is to bind people into the
project. C == PMC helps do that. If you have nothing to lose and
everything to gain, then this is a pretty reasonable idea.
A more mature project has something to lose so there is a case that C !=
PMC makes some sense.
On Wed, Dec 19, 2012 at 5:02 AM, Christian Grobmeier <gr...@gmail.com>wrote:
> > 2. Historically, podlings have *not* maintained this distinction, but
> > have waited for graduation to sort out the initial PMC members.
>
> Why do they behave differently than later as TLD?
>
Re: PPMC versus commiter
Posted by Christian Grobmeier <gr...@gmail.com>.
On Wed, Dec 19, 2012 at 1:43 PM, Benson Margulies <bi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> A recent vote thread on the private list led Christian Grobmeier to
> wonder why a podling was simultaneously proposing someone for PPMC and
> committer status.
>
> A few bits of background:
>
> 1. TLP's vary in their behavior in this regard. Some maintain a
> committer!=PMC distinction, and some do not.
I follow this:
http://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html#roles
The projects I am involved do distinct. not sure on the majority. I
take the link as recommendation though
> 2. Historically, podlings have *not* maintained this distinction, but
> have waited for graduation to sort out the initial PMC members.
Why do they behave differently than later as TLD?
> 3. Legally/organizationally, since PPMC members don't have binding
> votes, there's not much practical effect of making a distinction. At
> the end of the day, only Incubator PMC members have binding votes.
The podling is here to learn about how TLDs work. I consider it practice.
> 4. Christian pointed out that the Open Office podling found the
> process of sorting out the PMC/committer distinction to be painful.
>
> With all respect, I don't see the OO podling as typical. It's sheer
> size put it in a different category, and I for one do not feel
> inclined to tell podlings to start keeping PPMC and committer distinct
> on the basis of that history.
I have not said we must make it a rule. Actually I am thinking every
podling can do it as they want to have it; they should just know about
the link i sent above. When podling members know about the differences
and still want to keep it that way, its fine. But they need to know.
I am not here to make up rules. For my taste there are already too many.
Sending links like above and telling from my experiences is what I
consider "mentorship" too. After all, I am listening to many oldtimers
here when they speak from their experiences.
Cheers
Christian
>
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Re: How to use an apache webpage
Posted by Benson Margulies <bi...@gmail.com>.
On Thu, Dec 20, 2012 at 11:15 PM, Christian Grobmeier
<gr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, Dec 21, 2012 at 1:19 AM, Nick Burch <ap...@gagravarr.org> wrote:
>> On Thu, 20 Dec 2012, Shane Curcuru wrote:
>>>
>>> I put the DRAFT on because I originally wrote these for my personal
>>> Community Over Code site, and I wanted to ensure the style was appropriate
>>> for a path under a.o/foundation, which makes it official.
>>
>>
>> I wonder if a label like "work in progress" might be better suited, if we
>> want to indicate in future that something is incomplete but input is
>> welcomed?
If I follow this thread, the point is that (a) we have no process for
formally approving the docs in question, so (b) they always remain
W-I-P or DRAFT, so (c) no one knows whether to believe them.
The proposal here, to which I am +1, is that all of the docs are
subject to patches and vetos. So we need no such marking, but rather
the members of the responsible PMC need to act on their responsibility
and talk/act if they see something so wrong that someone should *not*
believe it. Until then, we trust the committers of these docs to
commit things that people should believe.
If someone wants to propose a small-print footer that copies this
policy, which is already on the incubator 'how to update the website
page', someone should, well, commit it.
>
> Only if you tell people who is working on it (to submit patches) and
> if the content of the document can be used (or not).
>
> Christian
>
>>
>> Nick
>>
>>
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>
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Re: How to use an apache webpage
Posted by Christian Grobmeier <gr...@gmail.com>.
On Fri, Dec 21, 2012 at 1:19 AM, Nick Burch <ap...@gagravarr.org> wrote:
> On Thu, 20 Dec 2012, Shane Curcuru wrote:
>>
>> I put the DRAFT on because I originally wrote these for my personal
>> Community Over Code site, and I wanted to ensure the style was appropriate
>> for a path under a.o/foundation, which makes it official.
>
>
> I wonder if a label like "work in progress" might be better suited, if we
> want to indicate in future that something is incomplete but input is
> welcomed?
Only if you tell people who is working on it (to submit patches) and
if the content of the document can be used (or not).
Christian
>
> Nick
>
>
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Re: How to use an apache webpage
Posted by Nick Burch <ap...@gagravarr.org>.
On Thu, 20 Dec 2012, Shane Curcuru wrote:
> I put the DRAFT on because I originally wrote these for my personal
> Community Over Code site, and I wanted to ensure the style was
> appropriate for a path under a.o/foundation, which makes it official.
I wonder if a label like "work in progress" might be better suited, if we
want to indicate in future that something is incomplete but input is
welcomed?
Nick
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Re: How to use an apache webpage
Posted by Shane Curcuru <as...@shanecurcuru.org>.
r843246
I put the DRAFT on because I originally wrote these for my personal
Community Over Code site, and I wanted to ensure the style was
appropriate for a path under a.o/foundation, which makes it official.
Since at least Christian seems to like it, I've removed the DRAFT. No,
I didn't get the idea from RBD, it's just a habit I have when I get
something partway done without having time to finish it all the way... 8-)
Thanks for the reminder, will try to cleanup and do the same to the
whole /governance tree over the holidays. Personally, I think they're a
really helpful resource.
- Shane
On 12/20/2012 6:34 AM, Andy Seaborne wrote:
> On 20/12/12 05:33, Joe Schaefer wrote:
>> All webpages we host are works in progress subject to change when
>> better consensus emerges. Please do not affix any labels to the
>> pages describing them as drafts as that only serves to discourage
>> others from working on them. Normative policy documents are few and
>> far between and you will recognize them by their self-descriptions as
>> such.
>>
>> Every interested party is welcome to collaborate with us to produce
>> more informative and accurate webpages through the CMS. Please help
>> out where you can. Our documentation becomes increasingly
>> authoritative as more and more people refer to it in positive ways;
>> ie the best documents wear well over time.
>>
>> HTH Sent from my iPhone
>
> I've always found the draft label confusing and as a newbie, suggesting
> that content is not yet active but will become so at some time. But it
> seems from this thread it means "descriptive" or "advice" or
> "non-normative" in W3C-standards-speak. To me, any non-draft documents
> is documenting current state and subject to change.
>
> Andy
>
>
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Re: How to use an apache webpage
Posted by Andy Seaborne <an...@apache.org>.
On 20/12/12 05:33, Joe Schaefer wrote:
> All webpages we host are works in progress subject to change when
> better consensus emerges. Please do not affix any labels to the
> pages describing them as drafts as that only serves to discourage
> others from working on them. Normative policy documents are few and
> far between and you will recognize them by their self-descriptions as
> such.
>
> Every interested party is welcome to collaborate with us to produce
> more informative and accurate webpages through the CMS. Please help
> out where you can. Our documentation becomes increasingly
> authoritative as more and more people refer to it in positive ways;
> ie the best documents wear well over time.
>
> HTH Sent from my iPhone
I've always found the draft label confusing and as a newbie, suggesting
that content is not yet active but will become so at some time. But it
seems from this thread it means "descriptive" or "advice" or
"non-normative" in W3C-standards-speak. To me, any non-draft documents
is documenting current state and subject to change.
Andy
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How to use an apache webpage
Posted by Joe Schaefer <jo...@yahoo.com>.
All webpages we host are works in progress subject to change when better consensus emerges. Please do not affix any labels to the pages describing them as drafts as that only serves to discourage others from working on them. Normative policy documents are few and far between and you will recognize them by their self-descriptions as such.
Every interested party is welcome to collaborate with us to produce more informative and accurate webpages through the CMS. Please help out where you can. Our documentation becomes increasingly authoritative as more and more people refer to it in positive ways; ie the best documents wear well over time.
HTH
Sent from my iPhone
On Dec 20, 2012, at 12:07 AM, Joe Schaefer <jo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Shane actually wrote that page but I still hate the exclusionary draft label he picked up from rbd.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Dec 19, 2012, at 11:52 PM, Joe Schaefer <jo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> That's the whole problem with Robert's labels, they scare people away from working on the document while simultaneously pretend that there is some supercommittee who will determine when one of his drafts is no longer a draft.
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> On Dec 19, 2012, at 11:47 PM, Christian Grobmeier <gr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Thu, Dec 20, 2012 at 5:44 AM, Joe Schaefer <jo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>> That's just RBD's signature boilerplate for a document he likely started. Feel free to remove it if you think it detracts from the document.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I leave the labeling of a document to the people who worked on it
>>>
>>>
>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>
>>>> On Dec 19, 2012, at 11:40 PM, Christian Grobmeier <gr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, Dec 19, 2012 at 11:43 PM, Daniel Shahaf <d....@daniel.shahaf.name> wrote:
>>>>>> Ross Gardler wrote on Wed, Dec 19, 2012 at 22:13:17 +0000:
>>>>>>> Christian, you can review any podling I'm a mentor on, including AOO, to
>>>>>>> see discussion of both models. I'm sure many other projects have discussed
>>>>>>> this too.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The page you refer to is correct, there are two separate roles as
>>>>>>> recognised by the foundation.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You do have a point that things can be documented more clearly, they always
>>>>>>> can be, but I don't think the how it works page is at fault. That page
>>>>>>> doesn't describe how someone gets those roles, it merely defines the roles
>>>>>>> the foundation recognises.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.apache.org/foundation/governance/pmcs#merit describes both
>>>>>> modes of operation.
>>>>>
>>>>> Didn't know about that document, but its good.
>>>>>
>>>>> Unfortunately: "This document is a DRAFT and should not be considered
>>>>> as a normative or detailed explanation at the current time."
>>>>>
>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>>>>
>>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> http://www.grobmeier.de
>>> https://www.timeandbill.de
>>>
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Re: PPMC versus commiter
Posted by Joe Schaefer <jo...@yahoo.com>.
Shane actually wrote that page but I still hate the exclusionary draft label he picked up from rbd.
Sent from my iPhone
On Dec 19, 2012, at 11:52 PM, Joe Schaefer <jo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> That's the whole problem with Robert's labels, they scare people away from working on the document while simultaneously pretend that there is some supercommittee who will determine when one of his drafts is no longer a draft.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Dec 19, 2012, at 11:47 PM, Christian Grobmeier <gr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Thu, Dec 20, 2012 at 5:44 AM, Joe Schaefer <jo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> That's just RBD's signature boilerplate for a document he likely started. Feel free to remove it if you think it detracts from the document.
>>>
>>
>> I leave the labeling of a document to the people who worked on it
>>
>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>> On Dec 19, 2012, at 11:40 PM, Christian Grobmeier <gr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Wed, Dec 19, 2012 at 11:43 PM, Daniel Shahaf <d....@daniel.shahaf.name> wrote:
>>>>> Ross Gardler wrote on Wed, Dec 19, 2012 at 22:13:17 +0000:
>>>>>> Christian, you can review any podling I'm a mentor on, including AOO, to
>>>>>> see discussion of both models. I'm sure many other projects have discussed
>>>>>> this too.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The page you refer to is correct, there are two separate roles as
>>>>>> recognised by the foundation.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You do have a point that things can be documented more clearly, they always
>>>>>> can be, but I don't think the how it works page is at fault. That page
>>>>>> doesn't describe how someone gets those roles, it merely defines the roles
>>>>>> the foundation recognises.
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.apache.org/foundation/governance/pmcs#merit describes both
>>>>> modes of operation.
>>>>
>>>> Didn't know about that document, but its good.
>>>>
>>>> Unfortunately: "This document is a DRAFT and should not be considered
>>>> as a normative or detailed explanation at the current time."
>>>>
>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>>>
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>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> http://www.grobmeier.de
>> https://www.timeandbill.de
>>
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Re: PPMC versus commiter
Posted by Joe Schaefer <jo...@yahoo.com>.
That's the whole problem with Robert's labels, they scare people away from working on the document while simultaneously pretend that there is some supercommittee who will determine when one of his drafts is no longer a draft.
Sent from my iPhone
On Dec 19, 2012, at 11:47 PM, Christian Grobmeier <gr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, Dec 20, 2012 at 5:44 AM, Joe Schaefer <jo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> That's just RBD's signature boilerplate for a document he likely started. Feel free to remove it if you think it detracts from the document.
>>
>
> I leave the labeling of a document to the people who worked on it
>
>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> On Dec 19, 2012, at 11:40 PM, Christian Grobmeier <gr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Wed, Dec 19, 2012 at 11:43 PM, Daniel Shahaf <d....@daniel.shahaf.name> wrote:
>>>> Ross Gardler wrote on Wed, Dec 19, 2012 at 22:13:17 +0000:
>>>>> Christian, you can review any podling I'm a mentor on, including AOO, to
>>>>> see discussion of both models. I'm sure many other projects have discussed
>>>>> this too.
>>>>>
>>>>> The page you refer to is correct, there are two separate roles as
>>>>> recognised by the foundation.
>>>>>
>>>>> You do have a point that things can be documented more clearly, they always
>>>>> can be, but I don't think the how it works page is at fault. That page
>>>>> doesn't describe how someone gets those roles, it merely defines the roles
>>>>> the foundation recognises.
>>>>
>>>> http://www.apache.org/foundation/governance/pmcs#merit describes both
>>>> modes of operation.
>>>
>>> Didn't know about that document, but its good.
>>>
>>> Unfortunately: "This document is a DRAFT and should not be considered
>>> as a normative or detailed explanation at the current time."
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>>
>>
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>
>
>
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> https://www.timeandbill.de
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Re: PPMC versus commiter
Posted by Daniel Shahaf <d....@daniel.shahaf.name>.
Christian Grobmeier wrote on Thu, Dec 20, 2012 at 05:47:56 +0100:
> On Thu, Dec 20, 2012 at 5:44 AM, Joe Schaefer <jo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > That's just RBD's signature boilerplate for a document he likely started. Feel free to remove it if you think it detracts from the document.
> >
>
> I leave the labeling of a document to the people who worked on it
So ask Shane or site-dev@ to remove the label.
(That's assuming you agree the label does not belong on the document ---
ie, that the current text is accurate.)
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Re: PPMC versus commiter
Posted by Christian Grobmeier <gr...@gmail.com>.
On Thu, Dec 20, 2012 at 5:44 AM, Joe Schaefer <jo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> That's just RBD's signature boilerplate for a document he likely started. Feel free to remove it if you think it detracts from the document.
>
I leave the labeling of a document to the people who worked on it
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Dec 19, 2012, at 11:40 PM, Christian Grobmeier <gr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, Dec 19, 2012 at 11:43 PM, Daniel Shahaf <d....@daniel.shahaf.name> wrote:
>>> Ross Gardler wrote on Wed, Dec 19, 2012 at 22:13:17 +0000:
>>>> Christian, you can review any podling I'm a mentor on, including AOO, to
>>>> see discussion of both models. I'm sure many other projects have discussed
>>>> this too.
>>>>
>>>> The page you refer to is correct, there are two separate roles as
>>>> recognised by the foundation.
>>>>
>>>> You do have a point that things can be documented more clearly, they always
>>>> can be, but I don't think the how it works page is at fault. That page
>>>> doesn't describe how someone gets those roles, it merely defines the roles
>>>> the foundation recognises.
>>>
>>> http://www.apache.org/foundation/governance/pmcs#merit describes both
>>> modes of operation.
>>
>> Didn't know about that document, but its good.
>>
>> Unfortunately: "This document is a DRAFT and should not be considered
>> as a normative or detailed explanation at the current time."
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>>
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Re: PPMC versus commiter
Posted by Joe Schaefer <jo...@yahoo.com>.
That's just RBD's signature boilerplate for a document he likely started. Feel free to remove it if you think it detracts from the document.
Sent from my iPhone
On Dec 19, 2012, at 11:40 PM, Christian Grobmeier <gr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, Dec 19, 2012 at 11:43 PM, Daniel Shahaf <d....@daniel.shahaf.name> wrote:
>> Ross Gardler wrote on Wed, Dec 19, 2012 at 22:13:17 +0000:
>>> Christian, you can review any podling I'm a mentor on, including AOO, to
>>> see discussion of both models. I'm sure many other projects have discussed
>>> this too.
>>>
>>> The page you refer to is correct, there are two separate roles as
>>> recognised by the foundation.
>>>
>>> You do have a point that things can be documented more clearly, they always
>>> can be, but I don't think the how it works page is at fault. That page
>>> doesn't describe how someone gets those roles, it merely defines the roles
>>> the foundation recognises.
>>
>> http://www.apache.org/foundation/governance/pmcs#merit describes both
>> modes of operation.
>
> Didn't know about that document, but its good.
>
> Unfortunately: "This document is a DRAFT and should not be considered
> as a normative or detailed explanation at the current time."
>
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Re: PPMC versus commiter
Posted by Christian Grobmeier <gr...@gmail.com>.
On Wed, Dec 19, 2012 at 11:43 PM, Daniel Shahaf <d....@daniel.shahaf.name> wrote:
> Ross Gardler wrote on Wed, Dec 19, 2012 at 22:13:17 +0000:
>> Christian, you can review any podling I'm a mentor on, including AOO, to
>> see discussion of both models. I'm sure many other projects have discussed
>> this too.
>>
>> The page you refer to is correct, there are two separate roles as
>> recognised by the foundation.
>>
>> You do have a point that things can be documented more clearly, they always
>> can be, but I don't think the how it works page is at fault. That page
>> doesn't describe how someone gets those roles, it merely defines the roles
>> the foundation recognises.
>
> http://www.apache.org/foundation/governance/pmcs#merit describes both
> modes of operation.
Didn't know about that document, but its good.
Unfortunately: "This document is a DRAFT and should not be considered
as a normative or detailed explanation at the current time."
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Re: PPMC versus commiter
Posted by Daniel Shahaf <d....@daniel.shahaf.name>.
Ross Gardler wrote on Wed, Dec 19, 2012 at 22:13:17 +0000:
> Christian, you can review any podling I'm a mentor on, including AOO, to
> see discussion of both models. I'm sure many other projects have discussed
> this too.
>
> The page you refer to is correct, there are two separate roles as
> recognised by the foundation.
>
> You do have a point that things can be documented more clearly, they always
> can be, but I don't think the how it works page is at fault. That page
> doesn't describe how someone gets those roles, it merely defines the roles
> the foundation recognises.
http://www.apache.org/foundation/governance/pmcs#merit describes both
modes of operation.
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Re: PPMC versus commiter
Posted by Ross Gardler <rg...@opendirective.com>.
Christian, you can review any podling I'm a mentor on, including AOO, to
see discussion of both models. I'm sure many other projects have discussed
this too.
The page you refer to is correct, there are two separate roles as
recognised by the foundation.
You do have a point that things can be documented more clearly, they always
can be, but I don't think the how it works page is at fault. That page
doesn't describe how someone gets those roles, it merely defines the roles
the foundation recognises.
Ross
Sent from a mobile device, please excuse mistakes and brevity
On 19 Dec 2012 18:56, "Christian Grobmeier" <gr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, Dec 19, 2012 at 6:57 PM, Ross Gardler
> <rg...@opendirective.com> wrote:
> > On 19 December 2012 13:33, Marvin Humphrey <ma...@rectangular.com>
> wrote:
> >
> >> The status quo seems to be that podlings tend to inherit their Mentors'
> >> beliefs. That may please no one, but I cringe at the thought of trying
> to
> >> "resolve" this one way or another. Consensus would mean one side losing
> >> after
> >> a long, bloody battle.
> >>
> >>
> > I hope this is not the case. I hope mentors impartially explain the
> > benefits and drawbacks of each approach and then let the PPMC make up
> their
> > mind. If a mentor is pushing their own preferred route then they are not
> > doing their job as a mentor in my opinion (an exception being made where
> a
> > mentor is also active on the project and thus has the equivalent of a
> > "binding vote" on the PPMC).
>
> +1
>
> This is very well said. The link I sent earlier told me, an "ASF
> project works with the distinction of PMC and C". It is not saying an
> typical project. It says, it is how the ASF works.
>
> As mentor I want to explain "how the ASF" works. Personally I am
> totally fine with both models; in fact, I am even not opposed in
> having global commit rights for every committer.
>
> But we should document that the other model "PMC == C" is practiced by
> some projects and it is totally acceptable like the "PMC != C" model.
>
> Personally I cannot remember a mentor proposed two different models
> before on a podling I was active.
>
> Actually the role PPMC does just lead to confusion. Why can't we
> remove it and allow ever podling committer to join the private list?
> When the day of graduation comes the mentors can choose the first PMC
> who can decide which model it wants to run. Nobody wants to be the bad
> guy and vote a person out of the PPMC.
>
> Christian
>
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Re: PPMC versus commiter
Posted by Christian Grobmeier <gr...@gmail.com>.
On Wed, Dec 19, 2012 at 6:57 PM, Ross Gardler
<rg...@opendirective.com> wrote:
> On 19 December 2012 13:33, Marvin Humphrey <ma...@rectangular.com> wrote:
>
>> The status quo seems to be that podlings tend to inherit their Mentors'
>> beliefs. That may please no one, but I cringe at the thought of trying to
>> "resolve" this one way or another. Consensus would mean one side losing
>> after
>> a long, bloody battle.
>>
>>
> I hope this is not the case. I hope mentors impartially explain the
> benefits and drawbacks of each approach and then let the PPMC make up their
> mind. If a mentor is pushing their own preferred route then they are not
> doing their job as a mentor in my opinion (an exception being made where a
> mentor is also active on the project and thus has the equivalent of a
> "binding vote" on the PPMC).
+1
This is very well said. The link I sent earlier told me, an "ASF
project works with the distinction of PMC and C". It is not saying an
typical project. It says, it is how the ASF works.
As mentor I want to explain "how the ASF" works. Personally I am
totally fine with both models; in fact, I am even not opposed in
having global commit rights for every committer.
But we should document that the other model "PMC == C" is practiced by
some projects and it is totally acceptable like the "PMC != C" model.
Personally I cannot remember a mentor proposed two different models
before on a podling I was active.
Actually the role PPMC does just lead to confusion. Why can't we
remove it and allow ever podling committer to join the private list?
When the day of graduation comes the mentors can choose the first PMC
who can decide which model it wants to run. Nobody wants to be the bad
guy and vote a person out of the PPMC.
Christian
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Re: PPMC versus commiter
Posted by Ross Gardler <rg...@opendirective.com>.
On 19 December 2012 13:33, Marvin Humphrey <ma...@rectangular.com> wrote:
> The status quo seems to be that podlings tend to inherit their Mentors'
> beliefs. That may please no one, but I cringe at the thought of trying to
> "resolve" this one way or another. Consensus would mean one side losing
> after
> a long, bloody battle.
>
>
I hope this is not the case. I hope mentors impartially explain the
benefits and drawbacks of each approach and then let the PPMC make up their
mind. If a mentor is pushing their own preferred route then they are not
doing their job as a mentor in my opinion (an exception being made where a
mentor is also active on the project and thus has the equivalent of a
"binding vote" on the PPMC).
Ross
>
>
> --
> Ross Gardler (@rgardler)
> Programme Leader (Open Development)
> OpenDirective http://opendirective.com
Re: PPMC versus commiter
Posted by "Mattmann, Chris A (388J)" <ch...@jpl.nasa.gov>.
I was that other mentor...*smile*
But the awesome part is that I respect Marvin's opinion, as well as the
opinion of others that believe (P)PMC != C.
Just not on the projects I will work on :)
Cheers,
Chris
On 12/19/12 5:33 AM, "Marvin Humphrey" <ma...@rectangular.com> wrote:
>On Wed, Dec 19, 2012 at 4:43 AM, Benson Margulies <bi...@gmail.com>
>wrote:
>
>> 1. TLP's vary in their behavior in this regard. Some maintain a
>> committer!=PMC distinction, and some do not.
>
>> With all respect, I don't see the OO podling as typical. It's sheer
>> size put it in a different category, and I for one do not feel
>> inclined to tell podlings to start keeping PPMC and committer distinct
>> on the basis of that history.
>
>Both ideologies have passionate adherents. While Lucy was in the
>Incubator,
>we had a long debate about this topic with myself as the strongest
>advocate
>for one position and one of our Mentors as the strongest advocate for the
>other. (Lucy uses a Committer/PMC Member split now as a TLP, just as we
>did
>while in the Incubator.)
>
>The status quo seems to be that podlings tend to inherit their Mentors'
>beliefs. That may please no one, but I cringe at the thought of trying to
>"resolve" this one way or another. Consensus would mean one side losing
>after
>a long, bloody battle.
>
>Marvin Humphrey
>
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Re: PPMC versus commiter
Posted by Marvin Humphrey <ma...@rectangular.com>.
On Wed, Dec 19, 2012 at 4:43 AM, Benson Margulies <bi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 1. TLP's vary in their behavior in this regard. Some maintain a
> committer!=PMC distinction, and some do not.
> With all respect, I don't see the OO podling as typical. It's sheer
> size put it in a different category, and I for one do not feel
> inclined to tell podlings to start keeping PPMC and committer distinct
> on the basis of that history.
Both ideologies have passionate adherents. While Lucy was in the Incubator,
we had a long debate about this topic with myself as the strongest advocate
for one position and one of our Mentors as the strongest advocate for the
other. (Lucy uses a Committer/PMC Member split now as a TLP, just as we did
while in the Incubator.)
The status quo seems to be that podlings tend to inherit their Mentors'
beliefs. That may please no one, but I cringe at the thought of trying to
"resolve" this one way or another. Consensus would mean one side losing after
a long, bloody battle.
Marvin Humphrey
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Re: PPMC versus commiter
Posted by Daniel Shahaf <d....@daniel.shahaf.name>.
Benson Margulies wrote on Wed, Dec 19, 2012 at 07:43:19 -0500:
> 3. Legally/organizationally, since PPMC members don't have binding
> votes, there's not much practical effect of making a distinction. At
> the end of the day, only Incubator PMC members have binding votes.
The practical differences are:
- Can work on security bug reports (on security@a.o+podling-private@)
- Can vote on new committers/PPMC members
- Is default candidate for PMC membership at graduation
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Re: PPMC versus commiter
Posted by Joe Schaefer <jo...@yahoo.com>.
Sent from my iPhone
On Dec 19, 2012, at 11:50 AM, "Mattmann, Chris A (388J)" <ch...@jpl.nasa.gov> wrote:
> Is it a "fight" to state an opinion, when one has already been stated,
> Marvin? C'mon now.
> Fair's fair, you already got yours out so I have every right to get mine
> out.
>
> To your point of we shouldn't legislate this across all podlings/projects,
> +1 to that.
>
> To your point of ending this useless thread, +1 to that.
>
> Cheers,
> Chris
>
> On 12/19/12 8:38 AM, "Marvin Humphrey" <ma...@rectangular.com> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, Dec 19, 2012 at 8:35 AM, Mattmann, Chris A (388J)
>> <ch...@jpl.nasa.gov> wrote:
>>> I have always recommended PPMC==C on all of my podlings, and was taught
>>> about that flat organizational structure when I started to see the light
>>> at Apache.
>>
>> Argh, do we really have to have this knock-down drag-out fight again?
>>
>> Marvin Humphrey
>>
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Re: PPMC versus commiter
Posted by Joe Schaefer <jo...@yahoo.com>.
Probably better to discuss on the project's lists than here
Sent from my iPhone
On Dec 19, 2012, at 12:40 PM, Benson Margulies <bi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I'm sorry to generate the latest incarnation of this perpetual
> annoyance. I don't think that there's an argument to win here; as
> always there is a spectrum of opinion and experience. I started this
> thread because I thought that a vote thread was not the best place to
> open the conversation with a particular podling about starting to
> distinguish C from PPMC.
>
> On Wed, Dec 19, 2012 at 12:08 PM, Joe Schaefer <jo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>> Marvin didn't even make his full point about Lucy- the fact is that all Apache committers have commit to Lucy. Putting them all on the pmc would be nuts in an entirely different way!
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> On Dec 19, 2012, at 11:50 AM, "Mattmann, Chris A (388J)" <ch...@jpl.nasa.gov> wrote:
>>
>>> Is it a "fight" to state an opinion, when one has already been stated,
>>> Marvin? C'mon now.
>>> Fair's fair, you already got yours out so I have every right to get mine
>>> out.
>>>
>>> To your point of we shouldn't legislate this across all podlings/projects,
>>> +1 to that.
>>>
>>> To your point of ending this useless thread, +1 to that.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> Chris
>>>
>>> On 12/19/12 8:38 AM, "Marvin Humphrey" <ma...@rectangular.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Wed, Dec 19, 2012 at 8:35 AM, Mattmann, Chris A (388J)
>>>> <ch...@jpl.nasa.gov> wrote:
>>>>> I have always recommended PPMC==C on all of my podlings, and was taught
>>>>> about that flat organizational structure when I started to see the light
>>>>> at Apache.
>>>>
>>>> Argh, do we really have to have this knock-down drag-out fight again?
>>>>
>>>> Marvin Humphrey
>>>>
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>>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>
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Re: PPMC versus commiter
Posted by Joe Schaefer <jo...@yahoo.com>.
It certainly should be discu
Sent from my iPhone
On Dec 19, 2012, at 12:40 PM, Benson Margulies <bi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I'm sorry to generate the latest incarnation of this perpetual
> annoyance. I don't think that there's an argument to win here; as
> always there is a spectrum of opinion and experience. I started this
> thread because I thought that a vote thread was not the best place to
> open the conversation with a particular podling about starting to
> distinguish C from PPMC.
>
> On Wed, Dec 19, 2012 at 12:08 PM, Joe Schaefer <jo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>> Marvin didn't even make his full point about Lucy- the fact is that all Apache committers have commit to Lucy. Putting them all on the pmc would be nuts in an entirely different way!
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> On Dec 19, 2012, at 11:50 AM, "Mattmann, Chris A (388J)" <ch...@jpl.nasa.gov> wrote:
>>
>>> Is it a "fight" to state an opinion, when one has already been stated,
>>> Marvin? C'mon now.
>>> Fair's fair, you already got yours out so I have every right to get mine
>>> out.
>>>
>>> To your point of we shouldn't legislate this across all podlings/projects,
>>> +1 to that.
>>>
>>> To your point of ending this useless thread, +1 to that.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> Chris
>>>
>>> On 12/19/12 8:38 AM, "Marvin Humphrey" <ma...@rectangular.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Wed, Dec 19, 2012 at 8:35 AM, Mattmann, Chris A (388J)
>>>> <ch...@jpl.nasa.gov> wrote:
>>>>> I have always recommended PPMC==C on all of my podlings, and was taught
>>>>> about that flat organizational structure when I started to see the light
>>>>> at Apache.
>>>>
>>>> Argh, do we really have to have this knock-down drag-out fight again?
>>>>
>>>> Marvin Humphrey
>>>>
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>>>
>>>
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>>
>>
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Re: PPMC versus commiter
Posted by Benson Margulies <bi...@gmail.com>.
I'm sorry to generate the latest incarnation of this perpetual
annoyance. I don't think that there's an argument to win here; as
always there is a spectrum of opinion and experience. I started this
thread because I thought that a vote thread was not the best place to
open the conversation with a particular podling about starting to
distinguish C from PPMC.
On Wed, Dec 19, 2012 at 12:08 PM, Joe Schaefer <jo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Marvin didn't even make his full point about Lucy- the fact is that all Apache committers have commit to Lucy. Putting them all on the pmc would be nuts in an entirely different way!
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Dec 19, 2012, at 11:50 AM, "Mattmann, Chris A (388J)" <ch...@jpl.nasa.gov> wrote:
>
>> Is it a "fight" to state an opinion, when one has already been stated,
>> Marvin? C'mon now.
>> Fair's fair, you already got yours out so I have every right to get mine
>> out.
>>
>> To your point of we shouldn't legislate this across all podlings/projects,
>> +1 to that.
>>
>> To your point of ending this useless thread, +1 to that.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Chris
>>
>> On 12/19/12 8:38 AM, "Marvin Humphrey" <ma...@rectangular.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Wed, Dec 19, 2012 at 8:35 AM, Mattmann, Chris A (388J)
>>> <ch...@jpl.nasa.gov> wrote:
>>>> I have always recommended PPMC==C on all of my podlings, and was taught
>>>> about that flat organizational structure when I started to see the light
>>>> at Apache.
>>>
>>> Argh, do we really have to have this knock-down drag-out fight again?
>>>
>>> Marvin Humphrey
>>>
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>>>
>>
>>
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Re: PPMC versus commiter
Posted by Joe Schaefer <jo...@yahoo.com>.
Marvin didn't even make his full point about Lucy- the fact is that all Apache committers have commit to Lucy. Putting them all on the pmc would be nuts in an entirely different way!
Sent from my iPhone
On Dec 19, 2012, at 11:50 AM, "Mattmann, Chris A (388J)" <ch...@jpl.nasa.gov> wrote:
> Is it a "fight" to state an opinion, when one has already been stated,
> Marvin? C'mon now.
> Fair's fair, you already got yours out so I have every right to get mine
> out.
>
> To your point of we shouldn't legislate this across all podlings/projects,
> +1 to that.
>
> To your point of ending this useless thread, +1 to that.
>
> Cheers,
> Chris
>
> On 12/19/12 8:38 AM, "Marvin Humphrey" <ma...@rectangular.com> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, Dec 19, 2012 at 8:35 AM, Mattmann, Chris A (388J)
>> <ch...@jpl.nasa.gov> wrote:
>>> I have always recommended PPMC==C on all of my podlings, and was taught
>>> about that flat organizational structure when I started to see the light
>>> at Apache.
>>
>> Argh, do we really have to have this knock-down drag-out fight again?
>>
>> Marvin Humphrey
>>
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>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
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>>
>
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Re: PPMC versus commiter
Posted by "Mattmann, Chris A (388J)" <ch...@jpl.nasa.gov>.
Is it a "fight" to state an opinion, when one has already been stated,
Marvin? C'mon now.
Fair's fair, you already got yours out so I have every right to get mine
out.
To your point of we shouldn't legislate this across all podlings/projects,
+1 to that.
To your point of ending this useless thread, +1 to that.
Cheers,
Chris
On 12/19/12 8:38 AM, "Marvin Humphrey" <ma...@rectangular.com> wrote:
>On Wed, Dec 19, 2012 at 8:35 AM, Mattmann, Chris A (388J)
><ch...@jpl.nasa.gov> wrote:
>> I have always recommended PPMC==C on all of my podlings, and was taught
>> about that flat organizational structure when I started to see the light
>> at Apache.
>
>Argh, do we really have to have this knock-down drag-out fight again?
>
>Marvin Humphrey
>
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Re: PPMC versus commiter
Posted by Marvin Humphrey <ma...@rectangular.com>.
On Wed, Dec 19, 2012 at 8:35 AM, Mattmann, Chris A (388J)
<ch...@jpl.nasa.gov> wrote:
> I have always recommended PPMC==C on all of my podlings, and was taught
> about that flat organizational structure when I started to see the light
> at Apache.
Argh, do we really have to have this knock-down drag-out fight again?
Marvin Humphrey
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Re: PPMC versus commiter
Posted by Daniel Shahaf <d....@daniel.shahaf.name>.
Mattmann, Chris A (388J) wrote on Wed, Dec 19, 2012 at 16:35:51 +0000:
> Making someone a C without PPMC gives them the power to evolve the code,
> but not to help make decisions about how can maintain it, or when to
> release it. Something about that, I just don't find right.
You _don't need to have commit access_ to do either of those things.
Do you want examples? One of the reasons Subversion 1.7.0-rc1 did not
become GA is that one of our users pointed out that the new backend was
missing some trait that 1.6 had had. We pulled the entire new backend
over that, and released rc2 --- and eventually 1.7.0 proper --- without
that backend.
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Re: PPMC versus commiter
Posted by "Richard S. Hall" <he...@ungoverned.org>.
On 12/19/12 11:40 , Bertrand Delacretaz wrote:
> On Wed, Dec 19, 2012 at 5:35 PM, Mattmann, Chris A (388J)
> <ch...@jpl.nasa.gov> wrote:
>> ...Making someone a C without PPMC gives them the power to evolve the code,
>> but not to help make decisions about how can maintain it, or when to
>> release it. Something about that, I just don't find right....
> As I said, in general I agree, but as a temporary situation that might
> allow a project to elect someone as a committer early, while taking a
> bit more time before granting them PMC power.
Agreed.
Considering we've given people commit access to create documentation or
examples, I think you shouldn't assume that C == "evolve the code".
I think we're better off only implementing "one size fits all" rules
when absolutely necessary. I don't think this is one of those situations.
-> richard
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Re: PPMC versus commiter
Posted by "Mattmann, Chris A (388J)" <ch...@jpl.nasa.gov>.
On 12/19/12 8:40 AM, "Bertrand Delacretaz" <bd...@apache.org> wrote:
>On Wed, Dec 19, 2012 at 5:35 PM, Mattmann, Chris A (388J)
><ch...@jpl.nasa.gov> wrote:
>> ...Making someone a C without PPMC gives them the power to evolve the
>>code,
>> but not to help make decisions about how can maintain it, or when to
>> release it. Something about that, I just don't find right....
>
>As I said, in general I agree, but as a temporary situation that might
>allow a project to elect someone as a committer early, while taking a
>bit more time before granting them PMC power.
I wasn't replying directly to you, Bertrand, I was replying in general.
That said, and I don't want to take this down a long never ending thread,
why separate the "power"? That seems like an artificial line to me and
quite honestly I wouldn't work on a project where you trust me to
develop/evolve the code, but don't trust me to release it or judge/elect
new folks to help maintain it.
If you want to elect someone early, elect them as both, early :)
Cheers,
Chris
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Re: PPMC versus commiter
Posted by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>.
On Wed, Dec 19, 2012 at 5:35 PM, Mattmann, Chris A (388J)
<ch...@jpl.nasa.gov> wrote:
> ...Making someone a C without PPMC gives them the power to evolve the code,
> but not to help make decisions about how can maintain it, or when to
> release it. Something about that, I just don't find right....
As I said, in general I agree, but as a temporary situation that might
allow a project to elect someone as a committer early, while taking a
bit more time before granting them PMC power.
-Bertrand
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Re: PPMC versus commiter
Posted by "Mattmann, Chris A (388J)" <ch...@jpl.nasa.gov>.
I have always recommended PPMC==C on all of my podlings, and was taught
about that flat organizational structure when I started to see the light
at Apache.
2 Tweets that I truly believe in:
https://twitter.com/flamefew/statuses/36352411593351168
https://twitter.com/flamefew/statuses/36352484263858176
Making someone a C without PPMC gives them the power to evolve the code,
but not to help make decisions about how can maintain it, or when to
release it. Something about that, I just don't find right.
Cheers,
Chris
On 12/19/12 4:43 AM, "Benson Margulies" <bi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>A recent vote thread on the private list led Christian Grobmeier to
>wonder why a podling was simultaneously proposing someone for PPMC and
>committer status.
>
>A few bits of background:
>
>1. TLP's vary in their behavior in this regard. Some maintain a
>committer!=PMC distinction, and some do not.
>
>2. Historically, podlings have *not* maintained this distinction, but
>have waited for graduation to sort out the initial PMC members.
>
>3. Legally/organizationally, since PPMC members don't have binding
>votes, there's not much practical effect of making a distinction. At
>the end of the day, only Incubator PMC members have binding votes.
>
>4. Christian pointed out that the Open Office podling found the
>process of sorting out the PMC/committer distinction to be painful.
>
>With all respect, I don't see the OO podling as typical. It's sheer
>size put it in a different category, and I for one do not feel
>inclined to tell podlings to start keeping PPMC and committer distinct
>on the basis of that history.
>
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