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Posted to users@subversion.apache.org by Urs Thuermann <ur...@isnogud.escape.de> on 2006/06/09 13:37:33 UTC
Threads on this mailing list
The threads in this mailing list are shown badly cluttered in my mail
reader (worse than mosts mailing lists I am subscribed to). I think
this is caused by the following:
1. The list server seems to mangle the Subject: header, i.e. it
inserts a space after the colon. Some mail readers seem to delete
this space when replying, giving "Subject: Re: foo", while others
don't and send "Subject: Re: foo". This makes the subject line
different enough for my mail reader to not consider these subjects
identical.
2. Many people here post with mail readers, that seem unable to insert
the correct "In-reply-to:" header.
This seems to be mostly the case with Outlook.
Please, could the list maintainer fix the subject rewriting and could
all users try to generate "In-reply-to" headers?
As it is right now, it makes following a discussion really hard.
just my 2c and thanks,
urs
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Re: Threads on this mailing list
Posted by Graham Reeds <gr...@ntlworld.com>.
Urs Thuermann wrote:
> The threads in this mailing list are shown badly cluttered in my mail
> reader (worse than mosts mailing lists I am subscribed to).
There's a small mailing list I am subscribed to where every time a
certain poster posts it breaks the threading (I think it is due to him
having AW: for his reply). Unfortunately he is a massive poster but
quite knowledgeable so he's forgiven.
G.
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Re: Threads on this mailing list
Posted by Urs Thuermann <ur...@isnogud.escape.de>.
Kenneth Porter <sh...@sewingwitch.com> writes:
> Threading in mailing lists is implemented using the Message-ID header
> and References header. The References header refers to the Message-ID
> headers of prior messages.
This is almost but not quite true. IIRC, the References header comes
from usenet while Email traditionally used In-reply-to only. Today,
many MUAs generate and use both, but there are still some mailers in
use (I see ELM still quite often) which only know about In-reply-to.
> The Subject line is only used (by some clients) as a workaround to
> systems that break the References chain.
1. Unfortunately, very many posts on this list are generated by broken
mailers (Outlook seems to be the one most often seen), which
neither generate the References header nor the In-reply-to header.
Here the subject line would be of help to do the threading.
However, together with the subject line mangling of the mailing
list server this causes threads in this mailing list to be totally
cluttered.
2. Even if correct References and In-reply-to headers were generated
by all mail user agents here, the subject line mangling is
annoying. Many mailers don't repeat the subject line in a summary
overview, if it's identical to the previous line or differs only in
that it has an "Re: " prepended. In the summary of this svn
mailing list, I don't get this feature, since the list server's
subject line mangling causes subject lines of postings in the same
thread to be different.
On the other hand, I see no good reason for the mailing list server to
insert a space after the colon of "Subject:" header. So I kindly ask
if this could be removed, making this list more pleasant to read.
urs
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Re: Threads on this mailing list
Posted by Erik Huelsmann <eh...@gmail.com>.
On 6/10/06, Andreas Pakulat <ap...@gmx.de> wrote:
> On 10.06.06 14:07:49, Erik Huelsmann wrote:
> > On 6/9/06, Andreas Pakulat <ap...@gmx.de> wrote:
> > >On 09.06.06 07:53:14, Kenneth Porter wrote:
> > >> --On Friday, June 09, 2006 3:37 PM +0200 Urs Thuermann
> > ><ur...@isnogud.escape.de>
> > >> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> >The threads in this mailing list are shown badly cluttered in my mail
> > >> >reader (worse than mosts mailing lists I am subscribed to). I think
> > >> >this is caused by the following:
> > >>
> > >> Threading in mailing lists is implemented using the Message-ID header and
> > >> References header. The References header refers to the Message-ID headers of
> > >> prior messages. IMAP servers use this to tell clients about threads. The
> > >> Subject line is only used (by some clients) as a workaround to systems that
> > >> break the References chain.
> > >
> > >The In-Reply-To Header is also needed for proper threading. Without it
> > >you'd have all messaged belonging to a thread withing the same tree, but
> > >not in the right order, because the messages without In-Reply-To are put
> > >under the OP.
> >
> > Not if the References: header is used correctly... (In-Reply-To is
> > actually less reliable than References, because many readers don't
> > conform to the suggested format.)
>
> I didn't read any RFC's on this, but from my experience References
> contains the message Id's of _all_ earlier messages in the (sub)thread.
> In-Reply-To in turn contains the message Id of the "parent" message (the
> one that was replied to). Now if In-Reply-To is missing, you cannot
> figure out which message is an answer to which other, thus mail clients
> just append to the OP mail.
>
> Or does the References header have a particular order?
This is very OT, so, I'd rather discuss privately, but:
References keeps max 7 M-Id's: The first in thread and the 6 last
(earliest first) [no duplicates], so, yes, it has a well defined
order.
bye,
Erik.
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Re: Threads on this mailing list
Posted by Andreas Pakulat <ap...@gmx.de>.
On 10.06.06 14:07:49, Erik Huelsmann wrote:
> On 6/9/06, Andreas Pakulat <ap...@gmx.de> wrote:
> >On 09.06.06 07:53:14, Kenneth Porter wrote:
> >> --On Friday, June 09, 2006 3:37 PM +0200 Urs Thuermann
> ><ur...@isnogud.escape.de>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> >The threads in this mailing list are shown badly cluttered in my mail
> >> >reader (worse than mosts mailing lists I am subscribed to). I think
> >> >this is caused by the following:
> >>
> >> Threading in mailing lists is implemented using the Message-ID header and
> >> References header. The References header refers to the Message-ID headers of
> >> prior messages. IMAP servers use this to tell clients about threads. The
> >> Subject line is only used (by some clients) as a workaround to systems that
> >> break the References chain.
> >
> >The In-Reply-To Header is also needed for proper threading. Without it
> >you'd have all messaged belonging to a thread withing the same tree, but
> >not in the right order, because the messages without In-Reply-To are put
> >under the OP.
>
> Not if the References: header is used correctly... (In-Reply-To is
> actually less reliable than References, because many readers don't
> conform to the suggested format.)
I didn't read any RFC's on this, but from my experience References
contains the message Id's of _all_ earlier messages in the (sub)thread.
In-Reply-To in turn contains the message Id of the "parent" message (the
one that was replied to). Now if In-Reply-To is missing, you cannot
figure out which message is an answer to which other, thus mail clients
just append to the OP mail.
Or does the References header have a particular order?
Andreas
--
You need more time; and you probably always will.
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Re: Threads on this mailing list
Posted by Erik Huelsmann <eh...@gmail.com>.
On 6/9/06, Andreas Pakulat <ap...@gmx.de> wrote:
> On 09.06.06 07:53:14, Kenneth Porter wrote:
> > --On Friday, June 09, 2006 3:37 PM +0200 Urs Thuermann <ur...@isnogud.escape.de>
> > wrote:
> >
> > >The threads in this mailing list are shown badly cluttered in my mail
> > >reader (worse than mosts mailing lists I am subscribed to). I think
> > >this is caused by the following:
> >
> > Threading in mailing lists is implemented using the Message-ID header and
> > References header. The References header refers to the Message-ID headers of
> > prior messages. IMAP servers use this to tell clients about threads. The
> > Subject line is only used (by some clients) as a workaround to systems that
> > break the References chain.
>
> The In-Reply-To Header is also needed for proper threading. Without it
> you'd have all messaged belonging to a thread withing the same tree, but
> not in the right order, because the messages without In-Reply-To are put
> under the OP.
Not if the References: header is used correctly... (In-Reply-To is
actually less reliable than References, because many readers don't
conform to the suggested format.)
HTH,
Erik.
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Re: Threads on this mailing list
Posted by Andreas Pakulat <ap...@gmx.de>.
On 09.06.06 07:53:14, Kenneth Porter wrote:
> --On Friday, June 09, 2006 3:37 PM +0200 Urs Thuermann <ur...@isnogud.escape.de>
> wrote:
>
> >The threads in this mailing list are shown badly cluttered in my mail
> >reader (worse than mosts mailing lists I am subscribed to). I think
> >this is caused by the following:
>
> Threading in mailing lists is implemented using the Message-ID header and
> References header. The References header refers to the Message-ID headers of
> prior messages. IMAP servers use this to tell clients about threads. The
> Subject line is only used (by some clients) as a workaround to systems that
> break the References chain.
The In-Reply-To Header is also needed for proper threading. Without it
you'd have all messaged belonging to a thread withing the same tree, but
not in the right order, because the messages without In-Reply-To are put
under the OP.
Andreas
--
In the stairway of life, you'd best take the elevator.
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Re: Threads on this mailing list
Posted by Kenneth Porter <sh...@sewingwitch.com>.
--On Friday, June 09, 2006 3:37 PM +0200 Urs Thuermann
<ur...@isnogud.escape.de> wrote:
> The threads in this mailing list are shown badly cluttered in my mail
> reader (worse than mosts mailing lists I am subscribed to). I think
> this is caused by the following:
Threading in mailing lists is implemented using the Message-ID header and
References header. The References header refers to the Message-ID headers
of prior messages. IMAP servers use this to tell clients about threads. The
Subject line is only used (by some clients) as a workaround to systems that
break the References chain.
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