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Posted to user@ant.apache.org by Stefan Bodewig <bo...@apache.org> on 2001/03/07 10:56:17 UTC
[ANN] Collecting requirements for Ant2
Some time back we started to collect feature requests and requirements
for the next major release of Ant - Ant2 - on the ant-dev mailing
list. As a result, a couple of documents ended up in the docs/ant2/
folder in Ant's CVS repository.
While we are determined to keep backwards compatibility in the Ant 1.x
series (going back to be compatible with Ant 1.2), Ant2 is expected to
break backwards compatibility in some areas - so anything could
happen.
To move from a brain-storming stage to a real requirements document,
we start to collect requests now - please tell us what you expect from
Ant2 on the ant-dev mailing list.
Discussions should be held on the development list only - you'll need
to subscribe to send an article there.
All requests received before March 21st 2001 will be recorded in the
document docs/ant2/requested-features.txt.
After that, all requested features will be discussed and voted upon in
a process outlined in
<http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=ant-dev&m=98379315617029&w=2>.
Looking forward to some interesting new ideas
Stefan Bodewig
Re: [ANN] Collecting requirements for Ant2
Posted by Peter Donald <do...@apache.org>.
At 09:25 20/3/01 -0800, Bill Brooks wrote:
>What I'd like to see in Ant 2.0 is a much more thought out declarative
>language for the XML build control files that stays firmly within the non
>procedural programming paradigm.
+1000000000000000 ;)
>With this, we need extensive documentation and examples so that people
>with little programming background understand why build.xml files work the
>way they do with the syntax they have.
ouch - are you volunteering ? ;)
>Other than the obious advantages, this would have three good side effects.
>
>1. Obviate the need for continually-asked for, half-baked, control
> stuctures.
>2. Prevent Ant from becoming a monstrosity of a scripting language like
> perl
>3. Lower the traffic on ant-user and ant-dev initiated by people who think
> that all languages must be somehow procedural in order to be useful and
> that all those who think otherwise are hopeless purists who
> must be worked around by hosting external Ant tasks on SourceForge.
While I think it is pure lunacy to encourage/host/enable control structures
and think that it is better to have one simple method for doing X.
However ... I would not be willing to block the ability by any means and
encourage anyone to host tasks/forks elsewhere if they want to do something
differemt (like those foul control structures ;]). Over last 3-4 months I
have been learning that it is often better to have activity, quantity and
low quality .. err lots of places for improvement ;) when building a
community. Why do you think I kick the Ant nest every now and again (hint:
it's to see activity ;-]).
Secondly - documentation. To do this correctly we need good docs. Its a
pity duncan left as he was going to write a book on Ant (or maybe still
is?). Without a volunteer to do this I think that too many bad practices
will be in place to "force" our design belief on others (even if it is for
the best).
Cheers,
Pete
*-----------------------------------------------------*
| "Faced with the choice between changing one's mind, |
| and proving that there is no need to do so - almost |
| everyone gets busy on the proof." |
| - John Kenneth Galbraith |
*-----------------------------------------------------*
Re: AW: [ANN] Collecting requirements for Ant2
Posted by Peter Donald <do...@apache.org>.
At 01:53 7/3/01 +0100, Oliver Wieland VDI wrote:
>Hi Stefan,
>
>it's ok to disagree with an opinion... but what is the reason?
Its all through out ant-dev archives and pops up every 100 or so messages.
If you stick around to vote time I am sure you will hear everyones opinion ;)
Cheers,
Pete
*-----------------------------------------------------*
| "Faced with the choice between changing one's mind, |
| and proving that there is no need to do so - almost |
| everyone gets busy on the proof." |
| - John Kenneth Galbraith |
*-----------------------------------------------------*
Re: [ANN] Collecting requirements for Ant2
Posted by Stefan Bodewig <bo...@apache.org>.
Oliver Wieland <wi...@vdi.de> wrote:
>> -----Ursprungliche Nachricht-----
>> Von: Stefan Bodewig [mailto:bodewig@apache.org]
>>
>> sticking to my promise to commit everything ...
>>
>> Oliver Wieland <wi...@vdi.de> wrote:
>>
>> > 2) Simple flow control (if-then-else, for)
>>
>> I should note that I don't agree with this, therefore I've put it
>> into category V.
> it's ok to disagree with an opinion...
thanks ;-)
> but what is the reason?
This has been shot down several times, I'll try to summarize.
We (well, most of us) agree that Ant should not become another
scripting language - scripting is supposed to be provided by the
<script> task for those who really want it. If you push support for
scripting elements into Ant's core, we fear Ant will become to
complex/difficult to maintain.
Stefan
AW: [ANN] Collecting requirements for Ant2
Posted by Oliver Wieland VDI <wi...@vdi.de>.
Hi Stefan,
it's ok to disagree with an opinion... but what is the reason?
> -----Ursprungliche Nachricht-----
> Von: Stefan Bodewig [mailto:bodewig@apache.org]
> Gesendet: Mittwoch, 7. Marz 2001 14:45
> An: ant-dev@jakarta.apache.org
> Betreff: Re: [ANN] Collecting requirements for Ant2
>
>
> sticking to my promise to commit everything ...
>
> Oliver Wieland <wi...@vdi.de> wrote:
>
> > 2) Simple flow control (if-then-else, for)
>
> I should note that I don't agree with this, therefore I've put it into
> category V.
>
> Stefan
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: ant-dev-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
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>
>
Re: [ANN] Collecting requirements for Ant2
Posted by Stefan Bodewig <bo...@apache.org>.
sticking to my promise to commit everything ...
Oliver Wieland <wi...@vdi.de> wrote:
> 2) Simple flow control (if-then-else, for)
I should note that I don't agree with this, therefore I've put it into
category V.
Stefan
Re: [ANN] Collecting requirements for Ant2
Posted by Stefan Bodewig <bo...@apache.org>.
Conor MacNeill <co...@cortexebusiness.com.au> wrote:
> That didn't take long. :-)
but caused the apache server to die afterwards 8-)
Stefan
Re: [ANN] Collecting requirements for Ant2
Posted by Conor MacNeill <co...@cortexebusiness.com.au>.
That didn't take long. :-)
BTW, My reader reports your message as invalid as it is sent from an
address which is different from the one for which your certificate is
issued
oliver.wieland@innoq.com
I'm taking a risk just reading this :-)
Conor
----- Original Message -----
From: "Oliver Wieland VDI" <wi...@vdi.de>
To: <an...@jakarta.apache.org>; <an...@jakarta.apache.org>
Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2001 8:44 PM
Subject: AW: [ANN] Collecting requirements for Ant2
> Hi,
>
> some suggestions:
> 1) Obfuscating task
> 2) Simple flow control (if-then-else, for)
>
> Examples:
> ---------
> <for list="*mydir1,mydir2,mydir3">
> <-- do something for each item , ${i} is the placeholder of the loop
> item-->
> <exec ... "${i}" />
> </for>
>
> <if test="my.boolean.property">
> <then>
> <-- do something -->
> </then>
> <else>
> <-- do something else-->
> </else>
> </if>
>
> Hope that creates some (other) ideas
> Olli
> > -----Ursprungliche Nachricht-----
> > Von: Stefan Bodewig [mailto:bodewig@apache.org]
> > Gesendet: Mittwoch, 7. Marz 2001 10:56
> > An: ant-dev@jakarta.apache.org
> > Cc: ant-user@jakarta.apache.org
> > Betreff: [ANN] Collecting requirements for Ant2
> >
> >
> > Some time back we started to collect feature requests and requirements
> > for the next major release of Ant - Ant2 - on the ant-dev mailing
> > list. As a result, a couple of documents ended up in the docs/ant2/
> > folder in Ant's CVS repository.
> >
> > While we are determined to keep backwards compatibility in the Ant 1.x
> > series (going back to be compatible with Ant 1.2), Ant2 is expected to
> > break backwards compatibility in some areas - so anything could
> > happen.
> >
> > To move from a brain-storming stage to a real requirements document,
> > we start to collect requests now - please tell us what you expect from
> > Ant2 on the ant-dev mailing list.
> >
> > Discussions should be held on the development list only - you'll need
> > to subscribe to send an article there.
> >
> > All requests received before March 21st 2001 will be recorded in the
> > document docs/ant2/requested-features.txt.
> >
> > After that, all requested features will be discussed and voted upon in
> > a process outlined in
> > <http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=ant-dev&m=98379315617029&w=2>.
> >
> > Looking forward to some interesting new ideas
> >
> > Stefan Bodewig
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: ant-dev-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: ant-dev-help@jakarta.apache.org
> >
> >
>
Re: [ANN] Collecting requirements for Ant2
Posted by Stefan Bodewig <bo...@apache.org>.
Bill Brooks <wb...@lug.ee.calpoly.edu> wrote:
> On 21 Mar 2001, Stefan Bodewig wrote:
>
>> Well, those "procedural purists" are a real pain, aren't they ;-)
>> These guys are a real "thought police" when they try to enforce
>> their view of the world ...
>>
>> I'm kidding here, Bill.
>>
>> Let's just try to keep dogmatism - any flavor of it - out of our
>> discussion.
>
> Okay. You can consider me duly chastised :-)
... heading to some online translation engine to make sure I know what
chastised means - well, at least IBM's translation engine on
Alphaworks could 8-) (why did I know this word?)
I've been called purist and thought police here when I battled against
procedural elements - well, scripting elements - before, just took the
opportunity to fight back ;-)
Stefan
Re: [ANN] Collecting requirements for Ant2
Posted by Bill Brooks <wb...@lug.ee.calpoly.edu>.
On 21 Mar 2001, Stefan Bodewig wrote:
> Well, those "procedural purists" are a real pain, aren't they ;-)
> These guys are a real "thought police" when they try to enforce their
> view of the world ...
>
> I'm kidding here, Bill.
>
> Let's just try to keep dogmatism - any flavor of it - out of our
> discussion.
Okay. You can consider me duly chastised :-)
Thanks for adding my comments to the requirements list.
Bill
Re: [ANN] Collecting requirements for Ant2
Posted by Stefan Bodewig <bo...@apache.org>.
Obviously we are starting the discussion 8-)
I'll try to make this move a little bit more formal within the next
hour or so - two or three commits are still needed and CVS is
extremely slow ATM.
Bill Brooks <wb...@lug.ee.calpoly.edu> wrote:
> What I'd like to see in Ant 2.0 is a much more thought out
> declarative language for the XML build control files that stays
> firmly within the non procedural programming paradigm.
If at all possible I'd say.
Added it to the list, in two flavors with a "purist" version in the
"controversial" corner of the list.
Personally I think we should review the use cases people are trying to
solve with procedural approaches very closely - if we can come up with
a non-procedural approach that is easy, great! If not, well than there
seems to be some room for procedural stuff.
> 3. Lower the traffic on ant-user and ant-dev initiated by people who
> think that all languages must be somehow procedural in order to be
> useful and that all those who think otherwise are hopeless purists
Well, those "procedural purists" are a real pain, aren't they ;-)
These guys are a real "thought police" when they try to enforce their
view of the world ...
I'm kidding here, Bill.
Let's just try to keep dogmatism - any flavor of it - out of our
discussion.
> who must be worked around by hosting external Ant tasks on
> SourceForge.
Well, this is OK IMHO - not making this stuff available to others
looks worse to me.
Stefan
Re: [ANN] Collecting requirements for Ant2
Posted by Stefan Bodewig <bo...@apache.org>.
Ken Wood <kw...@i2.com> wrote:
> Some form of support for running tasks in parallel, or in the
> background, or in different threads
> I hope this has been covered, but just to be safe...
I think so
Stefan
Re: [ANN] Collecting requirements for Ant2
Posted by Ken Wood <kw...@i2.com>.
I hope this has been covered, but just to be safe...
Some form of support for running tasks in parallel, or in the
background,
or in different threads -- however you want to express it -- so
that a build can start a server, then send commands to the server
in order to carry out various tests, then halt the running server task.
RE: [ANN] Collecting requirements for Ant2
Posted by Conor MacNeill <co...@cortexebusiness.com.au>.
> From: Barrie Treloar [mailto:Barrie.Treloar@camtech.com.au]
>
> Can you please provide a suitable reference for this?
http://www.w3.org/DesignIssues/Principles.html
Re: [ANN] Collecting requirements for Ant2
Posted by Barrie Treloar <Ba...@camtech.com.au>.
On Tue, 20 Mar 2001, Bill Brooks wrote:
> See Tim Berners-Lee's essay on "The principle of least power".
Can you please provide a suitable reference for this?
Barrie
--
Barrie Treloar
____________________________________________________________________
Barrie Treloar Phone: +61 8 8303 3300
Senior Analyst/Programmer Fax: +61 8 8303 4403
Electronic Commerce Division Email: barrie@camtech.com.au
Camtech http://www.camtech.com.au
A division of Keycorp Limited
--- Level 8, 10 Pulteney Street, Adelaide SA 5000, Australia. ---
____________________________________________________________________
Re: [ANN] Collecting requirements for Ant2
Posted by Bill Brooks <wb...@lug.ee.calpoly.edu>.
What I'd like to see in Ant 2.0 is a much more thought out declarative
language for the XML build control files that stays firmly within the non
procedural programming paradigm.
With this, we need extensive documentation and examples so that people
with little programming background understand why build.xml files work the
way they do with the syntax they have.
See Tim Berners-Lee's essay on "The principle of least power".
Other than the obious advantages, this would have three good side effects.
1. Obviate the need for continually-asked for, half-baked, control
stuctures.
2. Prevent Ant from becoming a monstrosity of a scripting language like
perl
3. Lower the traffic on ant-user and ant-dev initiated by people who think
that all languages must be somehow procedural in order to be useful and
that all those who think otherwise are hopeless purists who
must be worked around by hosting external Ant tasks on SourceForge.
Bill
AW: [ANN] Collecting requirements for Ant2
Posted by Oliver Wieland VDI <wi...@vdi.de>.
Hi,
some suggestions:
1) Obfuscating task
2) Simple flow control (if-then-else, for)
Examples:
---------
<for list="*mydir1,mydir2,mydir3">
<-- do something for each item , ${i} is the placeholder of the loop
item-->
<exec ... "${i}" />
</for>
<if test="my.boolean.property">
<then>
<-- do something -->
</then>
<else>
<-- do something else-->
</else>
</if>
Hope that creates some (other) ideas
Olli
> -----Ursprungliche Nachricht-----
> Von: Stefan Bodewig [mailto:bodewig@apache.org]
> Gesendet: Mittwoch, 7. Marz 2001 10:56
> An: ant-dev@jakarta.apache.org
> Cc: ant-user@jakarta.apache.org
> Betreff: [ANN] Collecting requirements for Ant2
>
>
> Some time back we started to collect feature requests and requirements
> for the next major release of Ant - Ant2 - on the ant-dev mailing
> list. As a result, a couple of documents ended up in the docs/ant2/
> folder in Ant's CVS repository.
>
> While we are determined to keep backwards compatibility in the Ant 1.x
> series (going back to be compatible with Ant 1.2), Ant2 is expected to
> break backwards compatibility in some areas - so anything could
> happen.
>
> To move from a brain-storming stage to a real requirements document,
> we start to collect requests now - please tell us what you expect from
> Ant2 on the ant-dev mailing list.
>
> Discussions should be held on the development list only - you'll need
> to subscribe to send an article there.
>
> All requests received before March 21st 2001 will be recorded in the
> document docs/ant2/requested-features.txt.
>
> After that, all requested features will be discussed and voted upon in
> a process outlined in
> <http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=ant-dev&m=98379315617029&w=2>.
>
> Looking forward to some interesting new ideas
>
> Stefan Bodewig
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: ant-dev-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: ant-dev-help@jakarta.apache.org
>
>
Re: [ANN] Collecting requirements for Ant2
Posted by Stefan Bodewig <bo...@apache.org>.
Peter Donald <do...@apache.org> wrote:
> At 01:46 7/3/01 +0100, Stefan Bodewig wrote:
>>Peter Donald <do...@apache.org> wrote:
>>
>>> Can we also flattenen the feature list so that there is no
>>> difference between "sure thing" features and likes ?
>>
>>I've done the exact opposite 8-)
>
> oh well ;)
See, they need to be sorted anyway - so if everybody picks up the
things he/she doesn't agree with and moves them into V we will have a
whole lot less problems when voting on II to IV.
> Just as long as we don't have a notion of sacred features - anything
> should be up to vote/discussion/whatever - even the most foul of
> foul (ie control tasks ;]). Cheers,
You've just wittnessed me doing exactly this 8-) - and let me say
clearly, that anybody is welcome to modify the file. I really don't
want this to appear as Stefan's thing, please.
Stefan
Re: [ANN] Collecting requirements for Ant2
Posted by Peter Donald <do...@apache.org>.
At 01:46 7/3/01 +0100, Stefan Bodewig wrote:
>Peter Donald <do...@apache.org> wrote:
>
>> Can we also flattenen the feature list so that there is no
>> difference between "sure thing" features and likes ?
>
>I've done the exact opposite 8-)
oh well ;)
>If you think something needs to go into a different category, feel
>free to do change the file.
Just as long as we don't have a notion of sacred features - anything should
be up to vote/discussion/whatever - even the most foul of foul (ie control
tasks ;]).
Cheers,
Pete
*-----------------------------------------------------*
| "Faced with the choice between changing one's mind, |
| and proving that there is no need to do so - almost |
| everyone gets busy on the proof." |
| - John Kenneth Galbraith |
*-----------------------------------------------------*
Re: [ANN] Collecting requirements for Ant2
Posted by Stefan Bodewig <bo...@apache.org>.
Peter Donald <do...@apache.org> wrote:
> Can we also flattenen the feature list so that there is no
> difference between "sure thing" features and likes ?
I've done the exact opposite 8-)
If you think something needs to go into a different category, feel
free to do change the file.
Stefan
Re: [ANN] Collecting requirements for Ant2
Posted by Stefan Bodewig <bo...@apache.org>.
Chris Todd <ch...@home.com> wrote:
> 1) Easier install process.
Added.
> 2) Make it easier to run ant. The batch/shell scripts...let's
> either ditch them (if possible), and perhaps make an executable jar
> file, or try to make them absolutely fool-proof.
Covered by
>> * remove as much dependency on native scripts as possible.
?
> 3) Antidote.
We already have stuff that says something like
>> * support for numerous frontends - from command line over GUI to
>> servlets
to me Antidote is the obvious choice for a GUI frontend, but I
wouldn't want to couple Ant2 to any frontent to strong - right now it
is tied to the CLI forntend far to close IMHO.
> 4) A central repository for contributions (user-created tasks,
> helper scripts, IDE integration stuff, etc.).
on the list.
> 5) Better docs.
added - although I think that this is not really a requirement 8-).
> 6) An RPM task would be cool.
added.
> P.S. I realize this is pretty trivial, but a nice logo/icon would
> be cool.
added.
Stefan
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RE: [ANN] Collecting requirements for Ant2
Posted by Chris Todd <ch...@home.com>.
Simeon-
Excellent! I'll look it over and work on fleshing it out.
Regards,
Chris Todd
-----Original Message-----
From: Simeon H.K. Fitch [mailto:simeon.fitch@mseedsoft.com]
Sent: Monday, March 12, 2001 3:41 PM
To: ant-dev@jakarta.apache.org
Subject: RE: [ANN] Collecting requirements for Ant2
> 3) Antidote. I see three good reasons for really making
<snip>
> simply be more comfortable. Crucial to this, I believe, is a build-file
> wizard/quick start tutorial. That would also be an excellent
> opportunity to
> lay down 'best practices' for Ant-based builds. I volunteer to help
with
> such a wizard. I am sure what constitutes 'Ant best practices' will be
> actively debated. :-)
I started on a framework for a new build file wizard in Antidote (in the
wizard package, naturally), but still needs to be completed along with an
inital cut of a simple build file wizard. Point being that there is a
start in place, but lots of opportunity for contributions.
sim
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RE: [ANN] Collecting requirements for Ant2
Posted by "Simeon H.K. Fitch" <si...@mseedsoft.com>.
> 3) Antidote. I see three good reasons for really making
<snip>
> simply be more comfortable. Crucial to this, I believe, is a build-file
> wizard/quick start tutorial. That would also be an excellent
> opportunity to
> lay down 'best practices' for Ant-based builds. I volunteer to help
with
> such a wizard. I am sure what constitutes 'Ant best practices' will be
> actively debated. :-)
I started on a framework for a new build file wizard in Antidote (in the
wizard package, naturally), but still needs to be completed along with an
inital cut of a simple build file wizard. Point being that there is a
start in place, but lots of opportunity for contributions.
sim
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RE: [ANN] Collecting requirements for Ant2
Posted by "Simeon H.K. Fitch" <si...@mseedsoft.com>.
> 3) Antidote. I see three good reasons for really making
<snip>
> simply be more comfortable. Crucial to this, I believe, is a build-file
> wizard/quick start tutorial. That would also be an excellent
> opportunity to
> lay down 'best practices' for Ant-based builds. I volunteer to help
with
> such a wizard. I am sure what constitutes 'Ant best practices' will be
> actively debated. :-)
I started on a framework for a new build file wizard in Antidote (in the
wizard package, naturally), but still needs to be completed along with an
inital cut of a simple build file wizard. Point being that there is a
start in place, but lots of opportunity for contributions.
sim
RE: [ANN] Collecting requirements for Ant2
Posted by Jose Alberto Fernandez <j_...@yahoo.com>.
> From: Andrew G. Tereschenko [mailto:tag@ibis.odessa.ua]
>
>
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: Chris Todd [mailto:chris.todd@home.com]
> >Sent: 10 ìàðòà 2001 ã. 3:06
> >To: ant-dev@jakarta.apache.org
> >Subject: RE: [ANN] Collecting requirements for Ant2
>
> [...]
>
> a) How about plugable tasks for Ant ???
> i.e.
> <plugable url="com.bar.foo.CustomAntTask" param1="value1">
> <fileset dir="${docsrc}/tut" includes="**.html"/>
> </plugable>
>
This already exists see <taskdef>.
> b) How about properties override ??? In makefiles set always
> change value of
> variable.
> I would like to have something :
> <property name="dest" value="xxxx" override="true"/>
> or
> <property name="version" value="2.2.36" override="false"/>
>
> P.S> Probably this was already discussed - but i'd like to
> have all this ...
>
> =============================
> Andrew G. Tereschenko
> Software Engineer
> Integrated Banking Information Systems
> tag@ibis.odessa.ua
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: ant-dev-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: ant-dev-help@jakarta.apache.org
>
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RE: [ANN] Collecting requirements for Ant2
Posted by "Andrew G. Tereschenko" <ta...@ibis.odessa.ua>.
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Chris Todd [mailto:chris.todd@home.com]
>Sent: 10 ����� 2001 �. 3:06
>To: ant-dev@jakarta.apache.org
>Subject: RE: [ANN] Collecting requirements for Ant2
[...]
>4) A central repository for contributions (user-created tasks, helper
>scripts, IDE integration stuff, etc.). I realize this has been discussed
>before, but I wanted to make sure it gets attention. There have been many
>tasks and other contributions that have been sent to ant-dev, and the only
>place they are available is via the mailing list archive. What
>are the odds
>that an Ant newbie who uses Emacs/JDE is actually going to find the
>jde-ant.el post from a couple of months back? Slim, I wager. Instead,
>there should be one central place that everyone can go and find
>all sorts of
>Ant goodies and extras, regardless of who submitted them or
>whether the Ant
>developers approve of them (ala the 'ant as a scripting language' debate
>some time back). This probably can/should be tied in with the plugin idea
>above (and/or CJAN).
>
a) How about plugable tasks for Ant ???
i.e.
<plugable url="com.bar.foo.CustomAntTask" param1="value1">
<fileset dir="${docsrc}/tut" includes="**.html"/>
</plugable>
b) How about properties override ??? In makefiles set always change value of
variable.
I would like to have something :
<property name="dest" value="xxxx" override="true"/>
or
<property name="version" value="2.2.36" override="false"/>
P.S> Probably this was already discussed - but i'd like to have all this ...
=============================
Andrew G. Tereschenko
Software Engineer
Integrated Banking Information Systems
tag@ibis.odessa.ua
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RE: [ANN] Collecting requirements for Ant2
Posted by "Simeon H.K. Fitch" <si...@mseedsoft.com>.
> 3) Antidote. I see three good reasons for really making
<snip>
> simply be more comfortable. Crucial to this, I believe, is a build-file
> wizard/quick start tutorial. That would also be an excellent
> opportunity to
> lay down 'best practices' for Ant-based builds. I volunteer to help
with
> such a wizard. I am sure what constitutes 'Ant best practices' will be
> actively debated. :-)
I started on a framework for a new build file wizard in Antidote (in the
wizard package, naturally), but still needs to be completed along with an
inital cut of a simple build file wizard. Point being that there is a
start in place, but lots of opportunity for contributions.
sim
RE: [ANN] Collecting requirements for Ant2
Posted by "Simeon H.K. Fitch" <si...@mseedsoft.com>.
> 3) Antidote. I see three good reasons for really making
<snip>
> simply be more comfortable. Crucial to this, I believe, is a build-file
> wizard/quick start tutorial. That would also be an excellent
> opportunity to
> lay down 'best practices' for Ant-based builds. I volunteer to help
with
> such a wizard. I am sure what constitutes 'Ant best practices' will be
> actively debated. :-)
I started on a framework for a new build file wizard in Antidote (in the
wizard package, naturally), but still needs to be completed along with an
inital cut of a simple build file wizard. Point being that there is a
start in place, but lots of opportunity for contributions.
sim
Re: [ANN] Collecting requirements for Ant2
Posted by Steve Loughran <st...@iseran.com>.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Stefan Bodewig" <bo...@apache.org>
To: <an...@jakarta.apache.org>
Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2001 00:21
Subject: Re: [ANN] Collecting requirements for Ant2
> Steve Loughran <st...@iseran.com> wrote:
>
> > Ideally. who to whine to when the task doesnt work;
>
> Something like this http://jakarta.apache.org/ant/external.html ?
Exactly like that! informative and with a clear delegation of support
resposibility to other people/groups.
-Steve
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Re: [ANN] Collecting requirements for Ant2
Posted by Stefan Bodewig <bo...@apache.org>.
Steve Loughran <st...@iseran.com> wrote:
> From: "Stefan Bodewig" <bo...@apache.org>
>> Actually, I think I'll start this list just now - using the IDE
>> integration packages I'm aware of.
>>
>> So what would we need? Name, description, URL, license. Anything
>> else?
>
> Ideally. who to whine to when the task doesnt work;
Something like this http://jakarta.apache.org/ant/external.html ?
Stefan
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Re: [ANN] Collecting requirements for Ant2
Posted by Steve Loughran <st...@iseran.com>.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Stefan Bodewig" <bo...@apache.org>
To: <an...@jakarta.apache.org>
Sent: Monday, March 12, 2001 04:47
> > We just need a repository of jars with a short description. That is
> > all we need. Maybe we can store it in one of those big "contribute
> > java code" sites that are all around. Then the only thing we need is
> > a link from the Jakarta pages.
>
> is really nothing more than a list of links. Doable in less than a
> day, send in some links to stuff that should be added and I will link
> it from Ant's homepage.
>
> Actually, I think I'll start this list just now - using the IDE
> integration packages I'm aware of.
>
> So what would we need? Name, description, URL, license. Anything else?
Ideally. who to whine to when the task doesnt work; otherwise the ant
buglist will become full of
"bug 'j.random.extension' doesnt do what it says it does" submissions.
-steve
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Re: [ANN] Collecting requirements for Ant2
Posted by Stefan Bodewig <bo...@apache.org>.
Jose Alberto Fernandez <j_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> From: Stefan Bodewig [mailto:bodewig@apache.org]
>>
>> I want an Apache hosted repository of contributions that would be
>> released under the Apache Software (Foundation) License.
>>
>
> Notice this is also fine, would this be what goes inthe optional
> task jar?
Something less coarse probably - the pvcs.jar with tasks for PVCS, the
cvs.jar for CVS and so on. Related tasks grouped together in libraries
of task. I'm talking about my ideas here, nothing that anybody had
agreed upon.
> Here we should enforce some more proper guidelines, formating,
> copyright notes, licencing and so on, I guess.
Exactly - I really think that the jakarta-commons project - once
started - will give us some ideas about the rules.
> Notice that once we have something like I am propossing I would
> assume that much of the presure on the optional tasks will disapear.
We'll see.
>> Actually, I think I'll start this list just now - using the IDE
>> integration packages I'm aware of.
>>
>> So what would we need? Name, description, URL, license. Anything
>> else?
>>
>
> Some way for users to comment about it would be nice.
This is a manual thing ATM, sorry. While user comments would be nice,
I'm afraid we could get swamped.
Stefan
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RE: [ANN] Collecting requirements for Ant2
Posted by Jose Alberto Fernandez <j_...@yahoo.com>.
> From: Stefan Bodewig [mailto:bodewig@apache.org]
>
> Jose Alberto Fernandez <j_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > I do not think we need CVS support for this.
>
> OK, so we are talking about different things 8-)
>
> I want an Apache hosted repository of contributions that would be
> released under the Apache Software (Foundation) License.
>
Notice this is also fine, would this be what goes inthe optional task jar?
Here we should enforce some more proper guidelines, formating, copyright
notes, licencing and so on, I guess. And I have no problem with using the
current way to manage that. Notice that once we have something like I am
propossing I would assume that much of the presure on the optional tasks
will disapear.
> What you are asking for:
>
> > We just need a repository of jars with a short description. That is
> > all we need. Maybe we can store it in one of those big "contribute
> > java code" sites that are all around. Then the only thing we need is
> > a link from the Jakarta pages.
>
> is really nothing more than a list of links. Doable in less than a
> day, send in some links to stuff that should be added and I will link
> it from Ant's homepage.
>
> Actually, I think I'll start this list just now - using the IDE
> integration packages I'm aware of.
>
> So what would we need? Name, description, URL, license. Anything else?
>
Some way for users to comment about it would be nice.
I guess, we will not be storing the contribution ourselves, maybe at some
point we could suggest where people can store their contributing software:
the big java tree (or whatever is called) or some other site. So people can
just submit it.
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Re: [ANN] Collecting requirements for Ant2
Posted by Stefan Bodewig <bo...@apache.org>.
Jose Alberto Fernandez <j_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I do not think we need CVS support for this.
OK, so we are talking about different things 8-)
I want an Apache hosted repository of contributions that would be
released under the Apache Software (Foundation) License.
What you are asking for:
> We just need a repository of jars with a short description. That is
> all we need. Maybe we can store it in one of those big "contribute
> java code" sites that are all around. Then the only thing we need is
> a link from the Jakarta pages.
is really nothing more than a list of links. Doable in less than a
day, send in some links to stuff that should be added and I will link
it from Ant's homepage.
Actually, I think I'll start this list just now - using the IDE
integration packages I'm aware of.
So what would we need? Name, description, URL, license. Anything else?
Stefan
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RE: [ANN] Collecting requirements for Ant2
Posted by Jose Alberto Fernandez <j_...@yahoo.com>.
> From: Stefan Bodewig [mailto:bodewig@apache.org]
>
> Jose Alberto Fernandez <j_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > The list should remove itself from the bussiness of judging and
> > debating whether a task is worth having or not. There should be a
> > repository where anyone and everyone can submit their "work of art"
> > tasks.
>
> This is already in the wish list - and one of my biggest wishes. I
> think, we all generally agree that a separate module for contributions
> is needed, but we will need rules for this (every committer would have
> commit access to all tasks in this module - but when/how may he/she
> use it, what are the rules for releasing a version of a task ...).
>
I do not think we need CVS support for this. The more burocratic (to use
some word) we go the worst it becomes overtime. We just need a repository of
jars witha short description. That is all we need. Maybe we can store it in
one of those big "contribute java code" sites that are all around. Then the
only thing we need is a link from the Jakarta pages.
If people want to post good, crappy, comercial, free, gnu, or whathever kind
of code it should be up to the users to decide whether to pick it up or not.
If people want to publish the sources, or encript the code it should be up
to them.
In other words, make ANT a platform (just like Apache is) and lets people's
creative juices flow!!!
> > The only debate on the list should be whether a contribution is good
> > enough and powerful enough as to make it into the official core jars
>
> Not sure, whether the notion of "good enough" is a good measure for
> core jars - sounds a little bit (how do you say in the US?,
> "politically challenging") discriminating. Something like "will this
> be useful for the average build environment or is it a special case
> tool" - which is vague enough - seems more appropriate.
>
Well I was not setting the rules here. What I meant was that we need to have
some criteria which may be based in some "usability", "where do we want ANT
to go", "broad usage", and of course "contributed sources" criteria. I think
we may enforce voting and real discussion for things to enter here. Since
the developer may always put it in the contributed code. I am not trying to
impose a criteria at this point just panning the space of possibilities.
> > or about changes to the core architecture.
>
> Agreed - but I think ant-dev should serve as the discussion list for
> the ant-contrib module as well. I wouldn't want to have a separate
> user list for the contrib stuff either (well, we probably wouldn't
> need a user list for the core anyway).
>
I do not about discussion, may be promotion, understanding, criticism. I
just think the best way to manage such a beast, is to manage it as little as
possible. Just say what is in there and have recommendations or complaints.
If you want your code moved into the official optional tasks, then you will
need to port it to the correct packages and such.
Jose Alberto
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Re: [ANN] Collecting requirements for Ant2
Posted by Stefan Bodewig <bo...@apache.org>.
Jose Alberto Fernandez <j_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> The list should remove itself from the bussiness of judging and
> debating whether a task is worth having or not. There should be a
> repository where anyone and everyone can submit their "work of art"
> tasks.
This is already in the wish list - and one of my biggest wishes. I
think, we all generally agree that a separate module for contributions
is needed, but we will need rules for this (every committer would have
commit access to all tasks in this module - but when/how may he/she
use it, what are the rules for releasing a version of a task ...).
> The only debate on the list should be whether a contribution is good
> enough and powerful enough as to make it into the official core jars
Not sure, whether the notion of "good enough" is a good measure for
core jars - sounds a little bit (how do you say in the US?,
"politically challenging") discriminating. Something like "will this
be useful for the average build environment or is it a special case
tool" - which is vague enough - seems more appropriate.
> or about changes to the core architecture.
Agreed - but I think ant-dev should serve as the discussion list for
the ant-contrib module as well. I wouldn't want to have a separate
user list for the contrib stuff either (well, we probably wouldn't
need a user list for the core anyway).
Stefan
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Re: [ANN] Collecting requirements for Ant2
Posted by Ken Wood <kw...@i2.com>.
Jose Alberto Fernandez wrote:
>
> I think this is the more important thing we can do for ANT. The list should
> remove itself from the bussiness of judging and debating whether a task is
> worth having or not. There should be a repository where anyone and everyone
> can submit their "work of art" tasks.
>
> The only debate on the list should be whether a contribution is good enough
> and powerful enough as to make it into the official core jars or about
> changes to the core architecture.
And I think for this to be practical, Ant needs to get away from
"default.properties" that tells what the optional tasks are.
Ant should look in ANT_HOME/lib, and pick up every task there.
So, Ant could go out with "ant.jar" and "optional.jar" containing
the most 'popular' or 'useful' optional tasks in one jar.
Then, any one who has more optional tasks can just drop the
jar(s) into ANT_HOME/lib, and everything works. Doesn't
matter if the task is home grown or obtained from a repository,
it all just works together. I believe some form of 'plugin' capability
has been raised in the past, but never hurts to bring this up again.
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Re: [ANN] Collecting requirements for Ant2
Posted by Stefan Bodewig <bo...@apache.org>.
Jose Alberto Fernandez <j_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> The problem to me is more with managing the classpath. Unless we
> manage somehow for ANT to use its own classloader for all its own
> code. People will need to fuss with the classpath.
Should already be on the wish list as well - I'll double check.
At least one of the proposals included code to do so (probably all of
them did).
Stefan
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Ditching the classpath, was RE: [ANN] Collecting requirements for Ant2
Posted by Stuart Halloway <st...@develop.com>.
> The problem to me is more with managing the classpath. Unless we manage
> somehow for ANT to use its own classloader for all its own code.
> People will
> need to fuss with the classpath.
I can write this, if it really appears a good idea. Could use a
URLClassLoader that doesn't delegate to the classpath or extensions loader,
so that misconfiguration there cannot hurt you. If we did this it should be
an option (albeit possibly the default one), so people who want to access
the classpath or extensions can still do so. Also, it would have to be
_very_ well doc'ed, or we would just be replacing one confusion with
another.
Stuart Halloway
DevelopMentor
http://staff.develop.com/halloway
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RE: [ANN] Collecting requirements for Ant2
Posted by Rob Oxspring <ro...@yahoo.com>.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jose Alberto Fernandez [mailto:j_a_fernandez@yahoo.com]
> Sent: 10 March 2001 14:15
> To: ant-dev@jakarta.apache.org
> Subject: RE: [ANN] Collecting requirements for Ant2
>
>
> > From: Chris Todd [mailto:chris.todd@home.com]
> >
> >
> > OK, here's my wishlist for Ant 2 (or at least a list of
> > things I would like
> > to see discussed):
> >
> >
> >
> > 2) Make it easier to run ant. The batch/shell
> > scripts...let's either ditch
> > them (if possible), and perhaps make an executable jar file,
> > or try to make
> > them absolutely fool-proof. Granted, I'm not sure how to
> > access environment
> > variables with an executable jar file (property files
> > perhaps?), but with
> > this many clever people around, I'm sure we could figure
> > something out.
> > There might not be any way around the scripts, but I would at
> > least like to
> > explore the possibility.
> >
>
> Environment variables are not a problem. The execute task already knows
> how to get to the environment and extract its content, without using
> deprecated APIs.
>
> The problem to me is more with managing the classpath. Unless we manage
> somehow for ANT to use its own classloader for all its own code.
> People will
> need to fuss with the classpath.
But is this really a problem? surely it would be simple to have an Ant.jar
that simply loads the jars in the lib directory and then runs the main
classes from lib/AntCore.jar. People will still have to battle against the
classpath env variable, but in my experience it's best to keep that as clean
as possible and the classpath can be reduced to empty (virtually) on the
command line by simply running:
java -cp . -jar ant.jar
... but as Ken Wood [kwood@i2.com] has pointed out - this is getting into
design mode, so better to deal with it in that phase.
Rob
>
> >
> > 4) A central repository for contributions (user-created tasks, helper
> > scripts, IDE integration stuff, etc.). I realize this has
> > been discussed
> > before, but I wanted to make sure it gets attention. There
> > have been many
> > tasks and other contributions that have been sent to ant-dev,
> > and the only
> > place they are available is via the mailing list archive.
> > What are the odds
> > that an Ant newbie who uses Emacs/JDE is actually going to find the
> > jde-ant.el post from a couple of months back? Slim, I wager.
> > Instead,
> > there should be one central place that everyone can go and
> > find all sorts of
> > Ant goodies and extras, regardless of who submitted them or
> > whether the Ant
> > developers approve of them (ala the 'ant as a scripting
> > language' debate
> > some time back). This probably can/should be tied in with
> > the plugin idea
> > above (and/or CJAN).
> >
>
> I think this is the more important thing we can do for ANT. The
> list should
> remove itself from the bussiness of judging and debating whether a task is
> worth having or not. There should be a repository where anyone
> and everyone
> can submit their "work of art" tasks.
>
> The only debate on the list should be whether a contribution is
> good enough
> and powerful enough as to make it into the official core jars or about
> changes to the core architecture.
>
> >
> > P.S. I realize this is pretty trivial, but a nice logo/icon
> > would be cool.
> > I'm no good with graphics, but I thought perhaps an Ant with
> > a construction
> > helmet building a brick wall? I know, I'm a geek...but it
> > could be cute!
>
> There was the ANT gif that someone had in its webpage, I forget whom.
> Maybe we can ask for a contribution.
>
> Jose Alberto
>
>
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RE: [ANN] Collecting requirements for Ant2
Posted by Jose Alberto Fernandez <j_...@yahoo.com>.
> From: Chris Todd [mailto:chris.todd@home.com]
>
>
> OK, here's my wishlist for Ant 2 (or at least a list of
> things I would like
> to see discussed):
>
>
>
> 2) Make it easier to run ant. The batch/shell
> scripts...let's either ditch
> them (if possible), and perhaps make an executable jar file,
> or try to make
> them absolutely fool-proof. Granted, I'm not sure how to
> access environment
> variables with an executable jar file (property files
> perhaps?), but with
> this many clever people around, I'm sure we could figure
> something out.
> There might not be any way around the scripts, but I would at
> least like to
> explore the possibility.
>
Environment variables are not a problem. The execute task already knows
how to get to the environment and extract its content, without using
deprecated APIs.
The problem to me is more with managing the classpath. Unless we manage
somehow for ANT to use its own classloader for all its own code. People will
need to fuss with the classpath.
>
> 4) A central repository for contributions (user-created tasks, helper
> scripts, IDE integration stuff, etc.). I realize this has
> been discussed
> before, but I wanted to make sure it gets attention. There
> have been many
> tasks and other contributions that have been sent to ant-dev,
> and the only
> place they are available is via the mailing list archive.
> What are the odds
> that an Ant newbie who uses Emacs/JDE is actually going to find the
> jde-ant.el post from a couple of months back? Slim, I wager.
> Instead,
> there should be one central place that everyone can go and
> find all sorts of
> Ant goodies and extras, regardless of who submitted them or
> whether the Ant
> developers approve of them (ala the 'ant as a scripting
> language' debate
> some time back). This probably can/should be tied in with
> the plugin idea
> above (and/or CJAN).
>
I think this is the more important thing we can do for ANT. The list should
remove itself from the bussiness of judging and debating whether a task is
worth having or not. There should be a repository where anyone and everyone
can submit their "work of art" tasks.
The only debate on the list should be whether a contribution is good enough
and powerful enough as to make it into the official core jars or about
changes to the core architecture.
>
> P.S. I realize this is pretty trivial, but a nice logo/icon
> would be cool.
> I'm no good with graphics, but I thought perhaps an Ant with
> a construction
> helmet building a brick wall? I know, I'm a geek...but it
> could be cute!
There was the ANT gif that someone had in its webpage, I forget whom.
Maybe we can ask for a contribution.
Jose Alberto
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RE: [ANN] Collecting requirements for Ant2
Posted by Chris Todd <ch...@home.com>.
OK, here's my wishlist for Ant 2 (or at least a list of things I would like
to see discussed):
All of these ideas center around making Ant even easier to use for
newbies/converts. Ant is already pretty darned good in that respect, but I
know it can be even better (IMHO)! :-) You may feel free to scoff at these
suggestions, and flame me at will, but at the very least, I would like to
see these issues discussed. And I apologize in advance for my verbosity.
:-(
1) Easier install process. Perhaps a GUI/wizard-type installer (maybe even
using Java Web Start from the Ant homepage)? I am particularly thinking of
an option that asks the user whether they will be using certain optional
tasks that require external libraries (e.g. FTP, script, JUnit, etc.), and
then offering the user the chance to download them (from CJAN or the ant
website or wherever) during the install. Something like this could cut down
on the "FTP task isn't working" faqs (of course, good docs don't hurt
either, and the docs have been getting better). I would even be willing to
bet that such a GUI installer (perhaps integrated with Antidote) could be
made to allow users to "upgrade" their Ant installation when new tasks or
bug fixes as they come out. For those of you who have used jEdit, I am
thinking along the lines of the plugin manager it uses (translating jEdit
plugin == Ant task). I think the 'ant task as plugin' analogy could work
quite well.
2) Make it easier to run ant. The batch/shell scripts...let's either ditch
them (if possible), and perhaps make an executable jar file, or try to make
them absolutely fool-proof. Granted, I'm not sure how to access environment
variables with an executable jar file (property files perhaps?), but with
this many clever people around, I'm sure we could figure something out.
There might not be any way around the scripts, but I would at least like to
explore the possibility.
3) Antidote. I see three good reasons for really making Antidote integral
to Ant 2.0 (there may be more). First, builds will be faster, since they'll
be in-process (and one-click). Second, if Antidote can be constructed such
that property editors can be used for every aspect of the build file, then
newbies might not even need to know any XML at all. Third, newbies will
simply be more comfortable. Crucial to this, I believe, is a build-file
wizard/quick start tutorial. That would also be an excellent opportunity to
lay down 'best practices' for Ant-based builds. I volunteer to help with
such a wizard. I am sure what constitutes 'Ant best practices' will be
actively debated. :-)
4) A central repository for contributions (user-created tasks, helper
scripts, IDE integration stuff, etc.). I realize this has been discussed
before, but I wanted to make sure it gets attention. There have been many
tasks and other contributions that have been sent to ant-dev, and the only
place they are available is via the mailing list archive. What are the odds
that an Ant newbie who uses Emacs/JDE is actually going to find the
jde-ant.el post from a couple of months back? Slim, I wager. Instead,
there should be one central place that everyone can go and find all sorts of
Ant goodies and extras, regardless of who submitted them or whether the Ant
developers approve of them (ala the 'ant as a scripting language' debate
some time back). This probably can/should be tied in with the plugin idea
above (and/or CJAN).
5) Better docs. While this is often a weak point in OSS projects, I have
to admit the Ant manual is quite good, and my kudos go out to everyone that
has made it so. But I think it can be better, particularly in the area of
helping newbies learn the ropes quickly. My guess is that some
reorganization of the existing manual would help, as well as the addition of
a quick start tutorial of some kind. Given that I volunteered to help with
the GUI wizard, I volunteer to help with this as well. (And I am almost
finished converting the existing manual to XML; I am hoping to have it
available next week).
6) An RPM task would be cool.
Again, I apologize for my verbosity, and I thank you if you've actually read
down this far. :-) I look forward to debating these and other Ant 2 issues.
Regards,
Chris Todd
chris.todd@home.com
P.S. I realize this is pretty trivial, but a nice logo/icon would be cool.
I'm no good with graphics, but I thought perhaps an Ant with a construction
helmet building a brick wall? I know, I'm a geek...but it could be cute!
:-)
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Re: [ANN] Collecting requirements for Ant2
Posted by Peter Donald <do...@apache.org>.
Excellent !
Can we also flattenen the feature list so that there is no difference
between "sure thing" features and likes ?
Cheers,
Pete
*-----------------------------------------------------*
| "Faced with the choice between changing one's mind, |
| and proving that there is no need to do so - almost |
| everyone gets busy on the proof." |
| - John Kenneth Galbraith |
*-----------------------------------------------------*
Re: [ANN] Collecting requirements for Ant2
Posted by Stefan Bodewig <bo...@apache.org>.
Rob Oxspring <ro...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> A bit more consistancy with the tasks would be good
Already there
>> * use a consistent naming scheme for attributes across all tasks
> the vague notion of "better subproject handling" could be added for
> later debate:
added
Stefan
RE: [ANN] Collecting requirements for Ant2
Posted by Rob Oxspring <ro...@yahoo.com>.
A bit more consistancy with the tasks would be good - I'm always writing
<javac/> followed by <copy/> and can never remember that the first uses
"srcdir" and "destdir" whereas the second uses "todir" with the source
directory only specified in a fileset. I know its a bit petty but I would
have thought that new users would find it easier to use with more consistent
attributes.
Also - although it is pretty much covered implicitly by the following two
entries from http://jakarta.apache.org/ant/ant2/requested-features.txt, the
vague notion of "better subproject handling" could be added for later
debate:
* create the concept of workspace so that projects can be built in a
DAG and thus enable projects like catalina/tomcat to have an easy
build process. It also helps CJAN to a lesser degree and would
partially solve the JARs in CVS thing.
* support more control over the properties that are going to be passed
to subprojects (modules)
(just trying to ensure that it/they don't slip through the net)
Rob