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Posted to user@struts.apache.org by Jubin Kuriakose <ju...@gmail.com> on 2006/03/13 04:46:03 UTC
has struts reached the saturation
Hi
I have heard that struts have reached a saturation point and nothing more
can be build over it. New frame works like spring would take over struts.
How valid are these opinions.
sncerely jubs
Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Ted Husted <te...@gmail.com>.
On 3/13/06, Jubin Kuriakose <ju...@gmail.com> wrote:
> But its growth is limited to being a webframework only. Spring on the other
> hand is the whole deal.
That's a bit of a misnomer, really. The Spring distribution contains
several interdependant frameworks. They have a Dependency Injection
piece and a AOP piece and mock piece and MVC piece. Sure, Spring
tosses in a Web MVC framework, and it's a nice piece of work, but it
is separate and distinct from the core Spring dependency framework. If
single-source solutions tickle your fancy, then sure, bundling is a
benefit. But, if you are trying to put together a stable, best of
breed solution, then you might not always be able to get what you want
from a single vendor.
The Spring DI framework is an excellent tool. I use it every day, both
for Java and for .NET. In WebWork/Action2, the Spring integration is
better than ever. But, the Spring Core and Spring MVC are distinct
animals.
-- HTH, Ted.
** http://www.husted.com/ted/blog/
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Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Leon Rosenberg <ro...@googlemail.com>.
Just my 2 cents.
If you design an application you can consider using different
frameworks for different application parts. Struts is there for the
presentation layer only. Struts doesn't care for the business logic in
behind, and this makes you more flexible. You can use ejb with struts,
or spring with struts, or pico, or whatever.
Comparing struts with spring is like comparing a your cars controls
with the motor. Sure you can do it, but it makes no sense.
Personally, I think the power of struts is that it only covers the
presentation and doesn't influence your architecture. It's focused and
good in its focus :-)
regards
leon
On 3/13/06, Jubin Kuriakose <ju...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Out of curiousity, how does that translate to "saturation" in your
> > opinion?
> >
> >
> I didn't come to an conclusion from this one article... It is the general
> opnion that struts is a mature and complete product and most programmers
> would choose struts.
> But its growth is limited to being a webframework only. Spring on the other
> hand is the whole deal.
> Struts have grown in almost all areas that concerns web development eg.
> validation security, presentation etc. And If you need another framework
> like Spring to carry it to the next step then its because it cant do it by
> itsself. also
> Its only an opinion by the way. dont crucify me.
>
> sincerley jubs
>
>
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Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Jubin Kuriakose <ju...@gmail.com>.
>
>
> Out of curiousity, how does that translate to "saturation" in your
> opinion?
>
>
I didn't come to an conclusion from this one article... It is the general
opnion that struts is a mature and complete product and most programmers
would choose struts.
But its growth is limited to being a webframework only. Spring on the other
hand is the whole deal.
Struts have grown in almost all areas that concerns web development eg.
validation security, presentation etc. And If you need another framework
like Spring to carry it to the next step then its because it cant do it by
itsself. also
Its only an opinion by the way. dont crucify me.
sincerley jubs
Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Craig McClanahan <cr...@apache.org>.
On 3/12/06, Jubin Kuriakose <ju...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> oh sorry....
> I wasn't aware of that rule.
> Anyway the quote
>
> > Some might say that the Spring framework just *handles* Struts better
> than
> > Struts handles itself
>
> I got from this link...
> http://www-128.ibm.com/developerworks/java/library/j-sr2.html
I wondered if that might have been what you meant. It seems to me this
article is all about how you can use Struts and Spring *together* to gain
the benefits of both. It's a pretty classic example of how well designed
frameworks (and both of these are) let you extend them seamlessly to tie
them together. In this particular scenario, the author discusses using
Spring's "inversion of control" facilities to let you configure your Struts
actions in a way that is somewhat more flexible than the standard mechanisms
that Struts supports (you can do it by customizing the action configuration
classes, but it's not particularly user friendly).
Out of curiousity, how does that translate to "saturation" in your opinion?
I will adhere to that rule....
It's not really a "rule" ... but it's certainly a custom that will gain you
more useful responses.
thnks Craig
Craig
On 3/13/06, Craig McClanahan <cr...@apache.org> wrote:
> >
> > On 3/12/06, Jubin Kuriakose <ju...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > > I've got a bit of advice for you ... either point at the opinions
> you
> > > are
> > > > referring to directly (so people can evaluate them for themselves),
> or
> > > > people are going to think you are yet another clone of Dakota Jack
> > :-).
> > >
> > >
> > > Wht did u mean by that ??
> >
> >
> >
> > I mean that people who say "this is what I heard" or "this is what I
> > read",
> > without giving others a chance to evaluate what *you* are basing your
> > opinions on, are less likely to pay as much credence to your remarks as
> > you
> > might like. Unsubstantiated comments come across like rumors, innuendo,
> > and
> > FUD rather than sincere questions.
> >
> > Search the archives of this list and you will see classic examples of a
> > person who illustrates this behavior pattern, and gets ignored by a wide
> > part of the community *because* of that behavior.
> >
> > If you heard something, tell us *where* you heard it and *who* said it.
> > Otherwise, nobody has a clue whether it is something we should pay
> > attention
> > to, or whether it is just noise.
> >
> > Craig
> >
> >
>
>
Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Jubin Kuriakose <ju...@gmail.com>.
oh sorry....
I wasn't aware of that rule.
Anyway the quote
> Some might say that the Spring framework just *handles* Struts better than
> Struts handles itself
I got from this link...
http://www-128.ibm.com/developerworks/java/library/j-sr2.html
I will adhere to that rule....
thnks Craig
On 3/13/06, Craig McClanahan <cr...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> On 3/12/06, Jubin Kuriakose <ju...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > I've got a bit of advice for you ... either point at the opinions you
> > are
> > > referring to directly (so people can evaluate them for themselves), or
> > > people are going to think you are yet another clone of Dakota Jack
> :-).
> >
> >
> > Wht did u mean by that ??
>
>
>
> I mean that people who say "this is what I heard" or "this is what I
> read",
> without giving others a chance to evaluate what *you* are basing your
> opinions on, are less likely to pay as much credence to your remarks as
> you
> might like. Unsubstantiated comments come across like rumors, innuendo,
> and
> FUD rather than sincere questions.
>
> Search the archives of this list and you will see classic examples of a
> person who illustrates this behavior pattern, and gets ignored by a wide
> part of the community *because* of that behavior.
>
> If you heard something, tell us *where* you heard it and *who* said it.
> Otherwise, nobody has a clue whether it is something we should pay
> attention
> to, or whether it is just noise.
>
> Craig
>
>
Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Dakota Jack <da...@gmail.com>.
Color me tired of your baloney.
Check this out:
http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/struts-user/200503.mbox/%3C422E6AE3.2000702@gridnode.com%3E
This citation, which I discussed many times, came almost a year before your
complaint. I cannot help it if you don't pay attention to the list.
Furthermore, if you don't know about Rod Johnson's discussion of Struts,
then shame on you.
On 3/13/06, Craig McClanahan <cr...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> On 3/13/06, Dakota Jack <da...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > I would like you to point out where I said "this is what I read" or
> > "this is what I heard", Craig. Why don't you point out where you saw
> > this. The real problem with you is that I don't care for your pet
> > projects. You are political. I am not. Big deal. I have nothing to
> > sell. So, if this gentleman is supposed to point out what he is
> > talking about, why don't you? Show where I did that. The truth is,
> > as usual, you are just bullshitting.
>
>
> Color me tired of "Rod Johnson says ..." with no attributions.
>
> Craig
>
>
--
"You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back."
~Dakota Jack~
Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Craig McClanahan <cr...@apache.org>.
On 3/13/06, Dakota Jack <da...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I would like you to point out where I said "this is what I read" or
> "this is what I heard", Craig. Why don't you point out where you saw
> this. The real problem with you is that I don't care for your pet
> projects. You are political. I am not. Big deal. I have nothing to
> sell. So, if this gentleman is supposed to point out what he is
> talking about, why don't you? Show where I did that. The truth is,
> as usual, you are just bullshitting.
Color me tired of "Rod Johnson says ..." with no attributions.
Craig
Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Michael Jouravlev <jm...@gmail.com>.
On 3/14/06, Paul Benedict <pa...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I totally agree with Rod Johnson! I don't know why so many people
> are quiet about this topic when the truth of Shale is obvious
> to anyone who paid attention to these boards, and the number of
> commits that go into Shale vs. Struts. I've voiced this before,
> but I usually don't get good reception. I am truly happy WebWork
> is becoming Struts 2.0 because the action framework, imo, is
> the only product that deserves the name "Struts" -- and Shale
> should leave the repository for its own pastures. I can't escape
> my perception of what Shale is (marketing campaign for JSF) and
> so I don't think I'll be leaving my opinion behind soon.
Paul, do you really feel like pulling out and laundering this dirty
stuff again? Well, here you are.
Commits represent what is interesting to the people who are not like
other people. How you can blame them, this is o-p-e-n s-o-u-r-c-e. You
did not pay for Struts code nor for support, did you? After Shale get
momentum, it will bail out from parent's nest, then brave volounteers
like you will be needed to support legacy boring stuff.
Shale under Struts umbrella? From a Struts user's view,
Apache->Jakarta has been replaced with Apache->Struts. No lemmings
have been hurt in the process.
WebWork becoming Struts taketh away universally likeable "Struts
sucks" motto, but Shale giveth something in return. It should be real
fun for an outsider of making sense between Struts 1.x "Classic",
Struts 2.0 "Shale", Struts 2.0 "Titanium", Struts 2.0 "I hate bees"
and Struts 2.0 "Le Chuck"... er... "WebWork 2". Pick yer poison!
Michael J.
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Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Hey Nony Moose <he...@liveonthe.net>.
Ted Husted wrote:
>... marketshare is not the point of the exercise.
>
(I wrote this reply, then read Paul B's parallel reply ... I'm
definitely thinking along a different track here ... I don't mind the
branding issue)
While I accept that Ted's comment was placed in the context of Apache
project management, I want to add a minor point on a different tack.
(Not that my opinion is worth much, but what the hell ... )
Market share of Struts vs JSF (or of j2ee vs .nut, etc etc) is of
paramount importance to me as a low-end developer. There are 2 reasons
for this.
1/ Market share of a technology leads to more employers looking for that
skill. More employers looking for a skill that I am cultivating leads
to me being able to get a decent job more easily. Getting a better job
pays for food, petrol and mortgage. That *is* a big deal to me. Maybe
some people are rolling in lolly and can dictate terms, but not me. I
read the job ads as a practice, so that I can know what skills employers
in my area are typically buying, both at a time and as a trend, and
Struts shows up in the grab bag of employers skill lists about 5x to 10x
more than JSF. (I don't think that I've seen Shale in a single job ad
here yet.) Maybe that's a local thing. I don't know, I don't read
international job ads, because I won't be working interstate let alone
internationally.
2/ Market share leads to more developers being skilled up in that
technology, so if I code an app for an employer in a well-established
with-a-future technology, then I am being quite responsible towards them
in their future needs for support and continuity of skills on that app.
If I just go with the pinnnacle technology, and developers who
understand it are scarce (or aren't willing to work in it!), how is that
being responsible towards my employer?
How Apache teams manage projects, and how the teams rationalize the
continuity and interest in projects is an entirely different matter, but
a technology's track record and projected market share over the next 5
years is really crucial to my choices as a garden-variety coder, both
for my own and my employers benefit.
Remember, I'm not trying to undermine anything that anyone else has
said, just adding my low-rung-on-the-ladder perspective.
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Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Dakota Jack <da...@gmail.com>.
<snip>
On 3/15/06, Craig McClanahan <cr...@apache.org> wrote:
>
>
> If you believe that, nothing I can do will persuade you otherwise. I'll
> just leave you with my personal belief ... MyFaces is very close to
> knocking
> off Struts as the second most popular Java-focused Apache project (after
> Tomcat) by every measure *I* can see.
</snip>
And what are those measures and what are the facts?
<snip>
And I talk to *lots* of developers
> over time -- not just the few that pay attention to the Struts mailing
> lists, and the overwhelming question I get *used* to be "which do I
> choose,
> Struts or JSF", and in the last three months it has turned into "what's my
> migration strategy?"
</snip>
So do we have any examples of actual migrations to back this up?
<snip>
I see more books about JSF that were published in the three *months* after
> 1.0 went final than in the three *years* after Struts 1.0 went final (and
> that takes some doing -- Struts got a *huge* amount of coverage).
</snip>
What are the actual statistics, i.e. books? Could we have some hard data?
<snip>
I see job postings that used to be 80/20 "struts and everything else" start
> to be 30/30/20 "struts/JSF/everything else".
</snip>
Really? I am not seeing this. So Struts and JSF are on an equal basis and
the two combined have lost 20% of the market, not 22%?
<snip>
I see credible efforts from multiple parties to create JSF based component
> libraries ... orders of magnitude more successful than JSP was ever able
> to
> get people to build tag libraries.
</snip>
I simply don't believe this. I would think we would see this. The JSP
explosion in tag libraries was huge. I don't see this at all.
<snip>
I see better tool support for JSF than I see for Struts. Again, *months*
> rather than years after the 1.0 release.
</snip>
JSF, first, is older than the hills. Don't hide that with the
"1.0release". Second, JSF is for tools and for "challenged"
programmers. That
is the basic idea. Struts was not meant for tools. You of all people are
well aware of both facts.
<snip>
And, I see a pretty significant backlash against Struts *because* of our
> emphasis on backwards compatibility. Hopefully, SAF 2.0 (the result of
> the
> WW merger) can put that crap to rest -- but I've gotta tell you ... if
> Struts developers hadn't been so passionate about backwards compatibility,
> it would have *never* seen the early adopters that it saw. Tell me that
> was
> a bad thing.
</snip>
In my opinion, the fact that JSF was brought into Struts is the biggest
reason people have little faith in the future. Migration is something that
a framework can do easily, but not with this cachophony.
<snip>
But it's time to stop being an
> ostrich, and understand that JSF is *already* here to stay. You seem to
> be
> one of the repeaters of the "JSF hasn't lived up to expectations" mantra.
> *Whose* expectations are you talking about? Your perception of this
> certainly does not match my experience over the last couple of years.
</snip>
Guess that is why Struts has pushed itself into the Shale community. Guess
that is why there is Shale and MyFaces. I forgot that MyFaces even still
exists.
<snip>
> The interesting message I am seeing is this --
> the internal architecture of the framework doesn't matter much to everyday
> use of that framework ... the "shape" of the resulting application can be
> basically identical in both paradigms.
</snip>
You are seeing your own message. The internal architecture of a framework
like Spring is no different from the mess in present Struts? What a
concept. That is simply outrageously false on many, many fronts, including
performance, reliability, time for development, cost of maintenance, etc.,
etc., down through all the 50 ilities that are impacted by poor design.
<snip>
PPS: As you might imagine, the most popular question I get asked when I
> speak at conferences related to web architectures is "what do I do now?"
</snip>
Well, anyone who is a professional asking this question is not someone I
want working for me.
I want to emphasize that I have no axe to grind about JSF itself. It is the
incredibly goofy statements of the salesmen that irks me. JSF, like Visual
Basic, has a place. That place is not in a serious website, however. In
the long run, very qualified coders will replace the long list of people who
need tool help. (Not tools like Eclipse, but tools like those associated
with "helper" frameworks.)
--
"You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back."
~Dakota Jack~
Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Leon Rosenberg <ro...@googlemail.com>.
Sorry, I didn't ment portals in sense of JSR-168, but portals in the
common sense of what is a portal, like yahoo.com, match.com,
amazon.com and such...
Leon
On 3/16/06, Michael Jouravlev <jm...@gmail.com> wrote:
> URLs are universal, while JSR-168 manages portlets through central
> controller (speaking of Front Controller and MVC) and specialized API.
> A very intrusive approach if you ask me. But this is offtopic for this
> thread ;)
>
> On 3/15/06, Leon Rosenberg <ro...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> > Speaking of JSF,
> > is there somewhere a Filter or n extension allowing you to use
> > JSF/Shale/MyFaces without having a single url and send everything over
> > POST?
> > Until there is one, I don't see how you can use JSF in portals, but if
> > there is one, I'd love to try it out :-)
>
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Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Ted Husted <te...@gmail.com>.
On 3/16/06, Leon Rosenberg <ro...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> same here, jobpilot (germans monster.com):
> java 1538
> java struts 120
> java jsf 18
And at Dice:
Java 14,891
JSF or JavaServer Faces 311
Struts 1719
WebWork 31
As for books since 2003:
JSF 12
Struts Action 20 (or 32 since 2001)
WebWork 4
Articles since 2003:
JSF 177
Strut Action 188
WebWork 27
Sources:
* Dice.com
* Amazon.com
* JSFCentral.com
* StrutsCentral.net
-T.
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Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by "Frank W. Zammetti" <fz...@omnytex.com>.
I'm not sure *anything* is off-topic for this thread :) LOL
--
Frank W. Zammetti
Founder and Chief Software Architect
Omnytex Technologies
http://www.omnytex.com
AIM: fzammetti
Yahoo: fzammetti
MSN: fzammetti@hotmail.com
Java Web Parts -
http://javawebparts.sourceforge.net
Supplying the wheel, so you don't have to reinvent it!
On Thu, March 16, 2006 2:37 am, Michael Jouravlev said:
> URLs are universal, while JSR-168 manages portlets through central
> controller (speaking of Front Controller and MVC) and specialized API.
> A very intrusive approach if you ask me. But this is offtopic for this
> thread ;)
>
> On 3/15/06, Leon Rosenberg <ro...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>> Speaking of JSF,
>> is there somewhere a Filter or n extension allowing you to use
>> JSF/Shale/MyFaces without having a single url and send everything over
>> POST?
>> Until there is one, I don't see how you can use JSF in portals, but if
>> there is one, I'd love to try it out :-)
>
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>
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Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Michael Jouravlev <jm...@gmail.com>.
URLs are universal, while JSR-168 manages portlets through central
controller (speaking of Front Controller and MVC) and specialized API.
A very intrusive approach if you ask me. But this is offtopic for this
thread ;)
On 3/15/06, Leon Rosenberg <ro...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> Speaking of JSF,
> is there somewhere a Filter or n extension allowing you to use
> JSF/Shale/MyFaces without having a single url and send everything over
> POST?
> Until there is one, I don't see how you can use JSF in portals, but if
> there is one, I'd love to try it out :-)
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Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Leon Rosenberg <ro...@googlemail.com>.
Speaking of JSF,
is there somewhere a Filter or n extension allowing you to use
JSF/Shale/MyFaces without having a single url and send everything over
POST?
Until there is one, I don't see how you can use JSF in portals, but if
there is one, I'd love to try it out :-)
regards
Leon
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Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Leon Rosenberg <ro...@googlemail.com>.
same here, jobpilot (germans monster.com):
java 1538
java struts 120
java jsf 18
On 3/16/06, Hey Nony Moose <he...@liveonthe.net> wrote:
> Hey Nony Moose wrote:
>
> >... Keyword = jsf ... 21 jobs
> >... Keyword = struts ... 126 jobs
> >source: http://www.jobnet.com.au click "Job Search" and try the keywords
> >
> and by the way ...
> ... skill = j2ee ... 559 jobs
> ... skill = ejb ... 94 jobs
> ... skill = .net ... 835 jobs
> ... skill = cobol ... 58 jobs
> ... skill = smalltalk ... 3 jobs
> ... skill = shale ... no jobs
> ... skill = myfaces ... no jobs
>
>
>
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Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Dakota Jack <da...@gmail.com>.
These figures match what I see. I see no traction at all. If there is
some, it is not surfacing where I move and live.
On 3/15/06, Hey Nony Moose <he...@liveonthe.net> wrote:
>
> Hey Nony Moose wrote:
>
> >... Keyword = jsf ... 21 jobs
> >... Keyword = struts ... 126 jobs
> >source: http://www.jobnet.com.au click "Job Search" and try the keywords
> >
> and by the way ...
> ... skill = j2ee ... 559 jobs
> ... skill = ejb ... 94 jobs
> ... skill = .net ... 835 jobs
> ... skill = cobol ... 58 jobs
> ... skill = smalltalk ... 3 jobs
> ... skill = shale ... no jobs
> ... skill = myfaces ... no jobs
>
>
>
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>
--
"You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back."
~Dakota Jack~
Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Dakota Jack <da...@gmail.com>.
What is this, 1984? Did you look at the actual statistics people presented,
Craig? Do you deny them?
On 3/20/06, Craig McClanahan <cr...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> On 3/15/06, Hey Nony Moose <heynonymoose2005@liveonthe.net > wrote:
> >
> > Craig McClanahan wrote:
> >
> > >I see job postings that used to be 80/20 "struts and everything else"
> > start
> > >to be 30/30/20 "struts/JSF/everything else".
> > >
> > try 60/10/x
>
>
> Well, I never could do arithmetic when I was jet lagged :-). 30/30/20
> should have been 50/30/20 ... but the direction of the trends is pretty
> obvious, no matter what the precise numbers are at any point in time.
>
> maybe people in first world countries have a different mix ...
> > I just searched Jobnet ... a big IT job board down on the other side of
> > the planet ...
> > For all IT vacancies in kanga-land:
> > ... no Keywords ... 7419 jobs
> > ... Keyword = jsf ... 21 jobs
> > ... Keyword = struts ... 126 jobs
> > source: http://www.jobnet.com.au click "Job Search" and try the
> keywords
> > sorry Craig ...
>
>
> I'm looking at the worldwide perspective, not just individual countries.
> I'm also listening to the companies whose developers I get to talk to in
> internal settings -- the adoption of technologies *behind* corporate
> firewalls does not have very much to do with the adoption of those
> technologies on public internet sites.
>
> Craig
>
> PS: That being said, I emotionally knew Struts was actually becoming a
> big
> deal when *my* personal bank started using a Struts based application for
> their electronic banking :-).
>
>
--
"You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back."
~Dakota Jack~
Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Dave Newton <ne...@pingsite.com>.
Craig McClanahan wrote:
> PS: That being said, I emotionally knew Struts was actually becoming a big
> deal when *my* personal bank started using a Struts based application for
> their electronic banking :-).
>
That must have been cool.
I had a similar experience when I noticed an ultrasound machine being
used on my father was a model I had contributed code for (you think J2EE
is bad try writing code in the medical industry :/ something about not
wanting heart pumps to suddenly reverse flow and minor crap like that ;)
All I could think was "Oh, crap... I hope that memory allocation and
communication queue I did still works... Oh crap oh crap oh crap oh crap
oh crap oh look a picture of his internal organs oh crap oh crap it
hasn't crashed yet oh crap oh crap oh crap I wish they had the debug
port hooked up oh crap oh crap" [etc.]
Dave
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Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Craig McClanahan <cr...@apache.org>.
On 3/15/06, Hey Nony Moose <heynonymoose2005@liveonthe.net > wrote:
>
> Craig McClanahan wrote:
>
> >I see job postings that used to be 80/20 "struts and everything else"
> start
> >to be 30/30/20 "struts/JSF/everything else".
> >
> try 60/10/x
Well, I never could do arithmetic when I was jet lagged :-). 30/30/20
should have been 50/30/20 ... but the direction of the trends is pretty
obvious, no matter what the precise numbers are at any point in time.
maybe people in first world countries have a different mix ...
> I just searched Jobnet ... a big IT job board down on the other side of
> the planet ...
> For all IT vacancies in kanga-land:
> ... no Keywords ... 7419 jobs
> ... Keyword = jsf ... 21 jobs
> ... Keyword = struts ... 126 jobs
> source: http://www.jobnet.com.au click "Job Search" and try the keywords
> sorry Craig ...
I'm looking at the worldwide perspective, not just individual countries.
I'm also listening to the companies whose developers I get to talk to in
internal settings -- the adoption of technologies *behind* corporate
firewalls does not have very much to do with the adoption of those
technologies on public internet sites.
Craig
PS: That being said, I emotionally knew Struts was actually becoming a big
deal when *my* personal bank started using a Struts based application for
their electronic banking :-).
Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Hey Nony Moose <he...@liveonthe.net>.
Hey Nony Moose wrote:
>... Keyword = jsf ... 21 jobs
>... Keyword = struts ... 126 jobs
>source: http://www.jobnet.com.au click "Job Search" and try the keywords
>
and by the way ...
... skill = j2ee ... 559 jobs
... skill = ejb ... 94 jobs
... skill = .net ... 835 jobs
... skill = cobol ... 58 jobs
... skill = smalltalk ... 3 jobs
... skill = shale ... no jobs
... skill = myfaces ... no jobs
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Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Hey Nony Moose <he...@liveonthe.net>.
Craig McClanahan wrote:
>I see job postings that used to be 80/20 "struts and everything else" start
>to be 30/30/20 "struts/JSF/everything else".
>
try 60/10/x
maybe people in first world countries have a different mix ...
I just searched Jobnet ... a big IT job board down on the other side of
the planet ...
For all IT vacancies in kanga-land:
... no Keywords ... 7419 jobs
... Keyword = jsf ... 21 jobs
... Keyword = struts ... 126 jobs
source: http://www.jobnet.com.au click "Job Search" and try the keywords
sorry Craig ...
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Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Craig McClanahan <cr...@apache.org>.
On 3/20/06, Michael Jouravlev <jm...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 3/20/06, Craig McClanahan <cr...@apache.org> wrote:
> > On 3/15/06, Michael Jouravlev <jm...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > Compare the (upcoming)
> > > > implementation of the iBATIS JPetStore application (implemented with
> > > > Struts, but with a "dispatch actions" hack)
> > >
> > > Who's making it? iBatis guys? I am interested, I am fond of "dispatch
> > > action hacks."
> >
> >
> > Figured you might be :-).
> >
> > The starting point for this is the "JPetStore 5.0 Example Application"
> > available at:
> >
> > http://ibatis.apache.org/javadownloads.html
> >
> > I'm not done with the conversion yet, but it ends up being much less
> > interesting than I had expected -- pretty much 1:1 mechanical
> conversions.
>
> Thanks, I will check it out!
>
> > > I agree that a component framework has its benefits. But with upgrade
> > > from Struts to JSF why not to upgrate the whole platform including OS?
> > > JSF is a component framework. JSF is not the component framework.
> >
> >
> > Please show me an alternative component framework (in the Java
> landscape)
> > that has attracted anything close to the same level of attention.
>
> Did you see that I mentioned a different OS? As in operating system,
> not open source ;-) I meant Windows + ASP.NET.
Agreed that this is a very popular combination of technologies.
ASP.NET 2.0 is very
> good, and upcoming WPF will blow everything else away.
>From what I've read, agree that WPF is likely to be quite cool.
Disagree that it will "blow everything away" ... inertia is real. Ask
Microsoft how many of their VB6 users are *really* unhappy because the .NET
framework has basically abandoned them.
I am also
> reading about RoR now and the language (Ruby) as well as framework do
> look really nice. Though RoR may not be a component framework.
RoR is interesting, and definitely delivers some productivity gains in some
areas. It is not clear to me (yet) how it will stack up when you have to go
back and maintain existing applications ... after all, that's the vast
majority of the cost of most deployed applications.
RoR is not a component framework by my definition ... but you'll have to
wait until after TSSJS this week so I can post my slides documenting my
definition. (NOTE -- by my definition, Struts doesn't have components
either :-).
> > There is no upgrade path from Struts to JSF, even JSP pages are
> > > different. The fact that JSP is now regarded as "that crusty stuff we
> > > brought with us to make show that JSF provides backward compatibility"
> > > does not make JSF more appealing that other component frameworks. Oh
> > > right, JSF *is* a standard.
> >
> > Talk to me in six months. Talk to me in a year. Guess who is going to
> be
> > smiling about what happened :-).
>
> More like a year than 6 months. But I do know what will happen. JSF
> will win. It is the official standard, it has real benefits over
> Struts, it has vendor support, I guess it starts gaining employers'
> support too (I don't see it, but it would be logical to develop
> application with tools that are/will be widely used, smart from
> business standpoint).
>
> I am not actually arguing that JSF will win, Frank does ;-) I just
> think that it will be not exactly a fair and square win ("we all
> gathered here for technology, not for politics" is B.S. that I don't
> care about). But comparing to soviet-like single-party MS-land,
> Javaland is still a Wild West of software development ;)
What is "unfair" about the fact that standards exist? What is "unfair"
about the fact that some people might actually like it, either *because* it
is a standard or *in spite of the fact* that it is a standard? That's life.
The nice thing about open source is that you don't have follow standards if
you don't want to -- just be aware that not everyone will believe as you do,
no matter how cool your stuff is. It's also much easier to gain acceptance
in areas that don't have such standards (Struts did, five years ago this
June, and the magnitude of that success has created a corresponding inertia
in the Java web app framework space that anyone interested in "competing"
has to overcome).
Michael.
Craig
Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Michael Jouravlev <jm...@gmail.com>.
On 3/20/06, Craig McClanahan <cr...@apache.org> wrote:
> On 3/15/06, Michael Jouravlev <jm...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > Compare the (upcoming)
> > > implementation of the iBATIS JPetStore application (implemented with
> > > Struts, but with a "dispatch actions" hack)
> >
> > Who's making it? iBatis guys? I am interested, I am fond of "dispatch
> > action hacks."
>
>
> Figured you might be :-).
>
> The starting point for this is the "JPetStore 5.0 Example Application"
> available at:
>
> http://ibatis.apache.org/javadownloads.html
>
> I'm not done with the conversion yet, but it ends up being much less
> interesting than I had expected -- pretty much 1:1 mechanical conversions.
Thanks, I will check it out!
> > I agree that a component framework has its benefits. But with upgrade
> > from Struts to JSF why not to upgrate the whole platform including OS?
> > JSF is a component framework. JSF is not the component framework.
>
>
> Please show me an alternative component framework (in the Java landscape)
> that has attracted anything close to the same level of attention.
Did you see that I mentioned a different OS? As in operating system,
not open source ;-) I meant Windows + ASP.NET. ASP.NET 2.0 is very
good, and upcoming WPF will blow everything else away. I am also
reading about RoR now and the language (Ruby) as well as framework do
look really nice. Though RoR may not be a component framework.
> > There is no upgrade path from Struts to JSF, even JSP pages are
> > different. The fact that JSP is now regarded as "that crusty stuff we
> > brought with us to make show that JSF provides backward compatibility"
> > does not make JSF more appealing that other component frameworks. Oh
> > right, JSF *is* a standard.
>
> Talk to me in six months. Talk to me in a year. Guess who is going to be
> smiling about what happened :-).
More like a year than 6 months. But I do know what will happen. JSF
will win. It is the official standard, it has real benefits over
Struts, it has vendor support, I guess it starts gaining employers'
support too (I don't see it, but it would be logical to develop
application with tools that are/will be widely used, smart from
business standpoint).
I am not actually arguing that JSF will win, Frank does ;-) I just
think that it will be not exactly a fair and square win ("we all
gathered here for technology, not for politics" is B.S. that I don't
care about). But comparing to soviet-like single-party MS-land,
Javaland is still a Wild West of software development ;)
Michael.
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Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Craig McClanahan <cr...@apache.org>.
On 3/15/06, Michael Jouravlev <jm...@gmail.com> wrote:
[snipping]
> > Compare the MailReader app as
> > implemented with Struts and with Shale+JSF.
>
> Craig, can you help with the link to Shale Mailreader, could not find it.
Nightly builds of all the Shale based webapps are available as war files in
the nightly builds site.
http://cvs.apache.org/builds/struts/nightly/struts-shale/
Look for one of the shale-mailreader-YYYYMMDD.war builds. Sources are in
the overall framework build.
> Compare the (upcoming)
> > implementation of the iBATIS JPetStore application (implemented with
> Struts,
> > but with a "dispatch actions" hack)
>
> Who's making it? iBatis guys? I am interested, I am fond of "dispatch
> action hacks."
Figured you might be :-).
The starting point for this is the "JPetStore 5.0 Example Application"
available at:
http://ibatis.apache.org/javadownloads.html
I'm not done with the conversion yet, but it ends up being much less
interesting than I had expected -- pretty much 1:1 mechanical conversions.
That, in turn, is the real message here ... people who believe that
application developers (as opposed to framework geeks) will think that the
difference in what *they* have to do is something really hard, is just not
going to turn out to be the case.
The only people that care whether its a front controller or a chain of
responsibility or whatever is the framework-level person responsible for
adding a new global feature. For the average developer working on an
individual page, the differences are mere syntactic sugar, not fundamental
learning principles.
> * If you are starting a new project, you owe it to yourself to evaluate
> the
> > benefits a component
> > oriented architecture can bring to your application. If you don't
> know
> > that those are, shame on you :-).
>
> I agree that a component framework has its benefits. But with upgrade
> from Struts to JSF why not to upgrate the whole platform including OS?
> JSF is a component framework. JSF is not the component framework.
Please show me an alternative component framework (in the Java landscape)
that has attracted anything close to the same level of attention.
Note carefully what I am saying. Tapestry is cool technology (the fact that
JSF is also cool doesn't negate that :-) -- but how many third party
Tapestry component libraries can you find, versus third party JSF
libraries? There are a few (see Tacos at sourceforge.net for an example),
but is that a viable marketplace (yet)? Relevance of a component
architecture is all about who else besides the framework vendors buy into
the fundamental APIs and think it is worthwhile to produce interoperable
components.
There is no upgrade path from Struts to JSF, even JSP pages are
> different. The fact that JSP is now regarded as "that crusty stuff we
> brought with us to make show that JSF provides backward compatibility"
> does not make JSF more appealing that other component frameworks. Oh
> right, JSF *is* a standard.
Talk to me in six months. Talk to me in a year. Guess who is going to be
smiling about what happened :-).
Michael.
Craig
Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Michael Jouravlev <jm...@gmail.com>.
On 3/15/06, Wendy Smoak <ws...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 3/15/06, Michael Jouravlev <jm...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > can you help with the link to Shale Mailreader, could not find it.
>
> Nightly builds:
> * http://cvs.apache.org/builds/struts/nightly/struts-shale/
>
> Maven reports (Javadoc and source xref, etc):
> * http://struts.apache.org/struts-shale/shale-mailreader/maven-reports.html
Thank you, Wendy!
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Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Wendy Smoak <ws...@gmail.com>.
On 3/15/06, Michael Jouravlev <jm...@gmail.com> wrote:
> can you help with the link to Shale Mailreader, could not find it.
Nightly builds:
* http://cvs.apache.org/builds/struts/nightly/struts-shale/
Maven reports (Javadoc and source xref, etc):
* http://struts.apache.org/struts-shale/shale-mailreader/maven-reports.html
--
Wendy
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Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Michael Jouravlev <jm...@gmail.com>.
On 3/15/06, Craig McClanahan <cr...@apache.org> wrote:
> I see more books about JSF that were published in the three *months* after
> 1.0 went final than in the three *years* after Struts 1.0 went final (and
> that takes some doing -- Struts got a *huge* amount of coverage).
Most Struts books paraphrase original documentation anyway, do not
discuss real-life problems and non-standard practices. By and large
they are no better than original docs.
> I see credible efforts from multiple parties to create JSF based component
> libraries ... orders of magnitude more successful than JSP was ever able to
> get people to build tag libraries.
Because people could not cook JSP properly. Currently "JSP sucks"
motto is almost as popular as "Struts sucks", especially with Tapestry
and Wicket crowd. Those who still use JSP insist on using
parameterized tags instead of includes. Why? Because it is "better".
It is the "proper way". Because it is the official recommendation
since JSP 1.1:
http://java.sun.com/blueprints/corej2eepatterns/Patterns/CompositeView.html
Why the recommendation? Because JSP designers treated JSP (and still
do) largely as pure rendering technology:
http://java.sun.com/developer/technicalArticles/J2EE/jsp_21/
You can take a look at what happens when dead rat is pulled out from the stew:
http://jspcontrols.sourceforge.net/
Fellow JSP developers blindly followed the path lit by Sun, just like
fellow Struts developers followed (and follow) ancient mantras, like
"storing state in session is bad", "dispatch actions are useless",
"page is the center of interaction in Struts universe, and a pair of
setup/submit actions are just servants", etc.
> I see better tool support for JSF than I see for Struts. Again, *months*
> rather than years after the 1.0 release.
Because, thanks JCP, JSF official specs *are* specs. They are easier
to follow and implement. Most people follow the official standards and
practices very closely, so JSF is better for them. For example, the
most sucky part of Struts is de-facto String-only ActionForms and thus
need for manual conversion. Solved with FormDef. But most people do
not want extensions, they want "original product". JSF is a way to
give an original product to them, in countless reincarnations. People
can hear only one shepherd at a time, Jesus knew it like no one.
> Compare the MailReader app as
> implemented with Struts and with Shale+JSF.
Craig, can you help with the link to Shale Mailreader, could not find it.
> Compare the (upcoming)
> implementation of the iBATIS JPetStore application (implemented with Struts,
> but with a "dispatch actions" hack)
Who's making it? iBatis guys? I am interested, I am fond of "dispatch
action hacks."
> * If you are starting a new project, you owe it to yourself to evaluate the
> benefits a component
> oriented architecture can bring to your application. If you don't know
> that those are, shame on you :-).
I agree that a component framework has its benefits. But with upgrade
from Struts to JSF why not to upgrate the whole platform including OS?
JSF is a component framework. JSF is not the component framework.
There is no upgrade path from Struts to JSF, even JSP pages are
different. The fact that JSP is now regarded as "that crusty stuff we
brought with us to make show that JSF provides backward compatibility"
does not make JSF more appealing that other component frameworks. Oh
right, JSF *is* a standard.
Michael.
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Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by "Frank W. Zammetti" <fz...@omnytex.com>.
Craig McClanahan wrote:
> On 3/15/06, Frank W. Zammetti <fz...@omnytex.com> wrote:
>> Growing like wildfire? Hmm... well, I'm certainly not intimately
>> familiar with that community, so I can't argue that point.
>
>
> If you believe that, nothing I can do will persuade you otherwise.
If I believe what Craig? That I'm not familiar with that community?
I'm not. That I can't argue the point? I can't. I have no idea what
you just said here frankly. Or are YOU in fact reading into it what you
want to read into it, as you accuse me of doing here?
You know Craig, you strike me as someone who doesn't like people
disagreeing with you. That's too bad. Re-read my posts over the last
few months. My tune has changed (as you admitted to me at one point by
the way). I have NOT said anything blatantly negative about JSF, and I
have NOT pushed my opinions as fact. And I have NOT been on a crusade
to convince anyone to think as I do. I have pretty clearly said that
these are MY feelings, MY perceptions and MY beliefs. I have also not
said I am right and you (or anyone else) is wrong. In fact, more and
more I've been saying that *I* may in fact wind up being wrong. You
seem to need to see me as an adversary, and that's too bad. It is
simply not the case. The fact that you may not agree with what I say is
fine, but I have as much right to say it as anyone else does.
> I'll
> just leave you with my personal belief ... MyFaces is very close to knocking
> off Struts as the second most popular Java-focused Apache project (after
> Tomcat) by every measure *I* can see. And I talk to *lots* of developers
> over time -- not just the few that pay attention to the Struts mailing
> lists, and the overwhelming question I get *used* to be "which do I choose,
> Struts or JSF", and in the last three months it has turned into "what's my
> migration strategy?"
I'll take your word for that. I can tell you that I receive more than a
few messages that say just the opposite, that JSF does not impress them
and they won't be going to it any time soon.
> I see more books about JSF that were published in the three *months* after
> 1.0 went final than in the three *years* after Struts 1.0 went final (and
> that takes some doing -- Struts got a *huge* amount of coverage).
Oh, I am SO fighting the urge to answer that.
> I see job postings that used to be 80/20 "struts and everything else" start
> to be 30/30/20 "struts/JSF/everything else".
I will again take your word for that, I have not been looking at job
listings lately.
> I see credible efforts from multiple parties to create JSF based component
> libraries ... orders of magnitude more successful than JSP was ever able to
> get people to build tag libraries.
Hmm... I see an absolute plethora of taglibs out there on the net... are
you perhaps referring to commercial offerings? You may well be right in
that case.
> I see better tool support for JSF than I see for Struts. Again, *months*
> rather than years after the 1.0 release.
Well of COURSE you do! JSF is *MADE* for tooling, it *HAS* to be
better! Your statement is a red herring IMO.
> And, I see a pretty significant backlash against Struts *because* of our
> emphasis on backwards compatibility. Hopefully, SAF 2.0 (the result of the
> WW merger) can put that crap to rest -- but I've gotta tell you ... if
> Struts developers hadn't been so passionate about backwards compatibility,
> it would have *never* seen the early adopters that it saw. Tell me that was
> a bad thing.
Nope, absolutely not a bad thing. I think the insistence on
backwards-compatibility, even in the face of criticism, is to the credit
of those that withstood (and continue to withstand) the criticism.
> So what are you seeing? Or are you just seeing things you wish were true?
And there it is! Someones' opinion or impression doesn't jive with
yours, so of COURSE they must be imagining things!
And now you get to claim the same thing you did about DJ... I talk to a
lot of developers Craig. Not as many as you I suspect, but a lot. A
good number seem to seek me out because of my public stance on things.
I won't name names unless those people say it's OK to do so, they came
to me in private. But I can tell you that I've heard a very common
theme over the past year or so, and that is that JSF isn't for them at
the moment, but IS improving, and MIGHT be worth it to them down the road.
Now, you see the negative in that apparently and dismiss the positive.
You want everyone to think JSF kicks ass RIGHT NOW. And for some it
absolutely does! I see the positive in it: you, and everyone involved
in JSF, my well be moving in the right direction. Why do you,
seemingly, have such a problem with people saying "I don't much care for
it now, but maybe eventually"? Because *THAT* is precisely what I've
been saying for months now, and if you don't believe me, spend some time
in the archives. Yes, I've made my criticisms, but I've nearly always
followed it with "but there is still hope". Look at the glass half
full, not half empty, and you might not be as upset with me as this post
seems to indicate.
> Legacy doesn't count in this equation -- *of course* if you have existing
> apps based on Struts you are going to be pretty passionate about ongoing
> support. And for those folks, the activity around Struts Action Framework
> and the WebWork merge is absolute goodness. But it's time to stop being an
> ostrich, and understand that JSF is *already* here to stay. You seem to be
> one of the repeaters of the "JSF hasn't lived up to expectations" mantra.
> *Whose* expectations are you talking about? Your perception of this
> certainly does not match my experience over the last couple of years.
And conversely, yours does not match mine. But, and this is the part
you should take away IMO, I'm moving towards you! Have been for some time.
As for the expectations, DJ ironically says it better than I do... JSF
has been around for a number of years and is not yet #1. As much hype
as we've been hearing the whole time, my expectation is that it would
be. IT MIGHT WIND UP BEING #1. That's really where the problem comes
from Craig, the constant hype and the constant regurgitation of the
"this is the future" mantra (talking about mantras!). If we weren't
constantly being force-fed JSF, I for one would have virtually nothing
to complain about. Your right, I am a repeater of that mantra. I don't
deny it. You want to know whos expectations? Everyone that has ever
told us that JSF is the greatest thing since sliced bread. That sets an
expectation that virtually nothing could live up to.
> * If you have existing Struts based apps, don't feel threatened into being
> forced to move. Struts
> Action Framework will take care of your needs, and has a clear roadmap
> (with the WW2 merger)
> to make your life better.
I like that answer. Completely appropriate.
> * If you have existing Struts based apps, but need some of the benefits that
> components can
> bring you (but also don't have time to migrate an entire app) ... no
> problem. The Struts-Faces
> integration library allows you to transition from one architecture to the
> other, one page at a time,
> althougth this is not an optimum long term architectuire. But it means
> you are *not* stuck
> having to convert your entire app at once.
Also a perfect answer.
> * If you are starting a new project, you owe it to yourself to evaluate the
> benefits a component
> oriented architecture can bring to your application. If you don't know
> that those are, shame on you :-).
> Note that there are no functional limitations ( i.e. things you can do in
> an action oriented framework
> that you cannot do in an appropriately architected component framework),
> so the key decision
> point needs to be whether you can benefit from components or not.
> Opinions that the underlying
> architecture of the framework really matters to anyone beyond framework
> geeks needs to be
> *seriously* questioned :-).
And, this might surprise you: I couldn't agree more!
> * If you need to transition from Struts to a JSF-based architecture, it is
> much less painful than you
> might be led to believe by the currently popular FUD :-).
Ah, but it goes both ways, and I already know you don't agree :) Moving
to JSF is not as painless as some would lead you to believe... well,
unless perhaps if you buy into the tooling 100%. Even then, maybe not.
> And, as an
> added benefit, transitioning
> from what's likely to emerge from the WebWork merger into Struts Action
> Framework 2 is going to
> be even easier :-). The WW2 concept of an action class, and the JSF
> notion of a backing bean,
> are virtually indistinuishable. The only substantive differences are in
> how you customize the
> overall framework behavior ... and that is more in the "how do I do it"
> details, rather than
> "what can i do."
Agreed there again.
Craig, I certainly hope this reply doesn't put us permanently at odds.
We were almost at that point in the past, and I take full responsibility
for that instance, but I thought we had pulled back from the abyss :)
This time I absolutely won't take responsibility for it though. We
clearly have some differing ideas here, and I would hope that isn't a
problem for you. I can tell you I always read your posts with great
interest, even when I totally disagree with you, because I respect your
achievements and value your insights. I can only hope you can say the
same, whether about me or about anyone else that says things you don't
agree with. I don't begrudge you the right to say whatever you think,
even when it is completely at odds with me, and I sincerely hope you
have the same feeling the other way.
Frank
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Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Craig McClanahan <cr...@apache.org>.
On 3/15/06, Frank W. Zammetti <fz...@omnytex.com> wrote:
>
> Growing like wildfire? Hmm... well, I'm certainly not intimately
> familiar with that community, so I can't argue that point.
If you believe that, nothing I can do will persuade you otherwise. I'll
just leave you with my personal belief ... MyFaces is very close to knocking
off Struts as the second most popular Java-focused Apache project (after
Tomcat) by every measure *I* can see. And I talk to *lots* of developers
over time -- not just the few that pay attention to the Struts mailing
lists, and the overwhelming question I get *used* to be "which do I choose,
Struts or JSF", and in the last three months it has turned into "what's my
migration strategy?"
I see more books about JSF that were published in the three *months* after
1.0 went final than in the three *years* after Struts 1.0 went final (and
that takes some doing -- Struts got a *huge* amount of coverage).
I see job postings that used to be 80/20 "struts and everything else" start
to be 30/30/20 "struts/JSF/everything else".
I see credible efforts from multiple parties to create JSF based component
libraries ... orders of magnitude more successful than JSP was ever able to
get people to build tag libraries.
I see better tool support for JSF than I see for Struts. Again, *months*
rather than years after the 1.0 release.
And, I see a pretty significant backlash against Struts *because* of our
emphasis on backwards compatibility. Hopefully, SAF 2.0 (the result of the
WW merger) can put that crap to rest -- but I've gotta tell you ... if
Struts developers hadn't been so passionate about backwards compatibility,
it would have *never* seen the early adopters that it saw. Tell me that was
a bad thing.
So what are you seeing? Or are you just seeing things you wish were true?
Legacy doesn't count in this equation -- *of course* if you have existing
apps based on Struts you are going to be pretty passionate about ongoing
support. And for those folks, the activity around Struts Action Framework
and the WebWork merge is absolute goodness. But it's time to stop being an
ostrich, and understand that JSF is *already* here to stay. You seem to be
one of the repeaters of the "JSF hasn't lived up to expectations" mantra.
*Whose* expectations are you talking about? Your perception of this
certainly does not match my experience over the last couple of years.
Craig
PS: By the way, with Shale's support for Commons Validator and Tiles,
Shale+JSF can legitimately claim functional equivalents for everything
Struts 1.x can do out of the box. And many of the Struts add-ons being
bandied about are simply not necessary in a JSF world, because JSF's
controller already deals with those issues. Don't be misled by people who
think that the programming environment -- for the *application* developer --
is subtantively different, either. Compare the MailReader app as
implemented with Struts and with Shale+JSF. Compare the (upcoming)
implementation of the iBATIS JPetStore application (implemented with Struts,
but with a "dispatch actions" hack) to what you can do with JSF, with
fewer/simpler Java classes. The interesting message I am seeing is this --
the internal architecture of the framework doesn't matter much to everyday
use of that framework ... the "shape" of the resulting application can be
basically identical in both paradigms.
PPS: As you might imagine, the most popular question I get asked when I
speak at conferences related to web architectures is "what do I do now?" My
standard answer goes along these lines:
* If you have existing Struts based apps, don't feel threatened into being
forced to move. Struts
Action Framework will take care of your needs, and has a clear roadmap
(with the WW2 merger)
to make your life better.
* If you have existing Struts based apps, but need some of the benefits that
components can
bring you (but also don't have time to migrate an entire app) ... no
problem. The Struts-Faces
integration library allows you to transition from one architecture to the
other, one page at a time,
althougth this is not an optimum long term architectuire. But it means
you are *not* stuck
having to convert your entire app at once.
* If you are starting a new project, you owe it to yourself to evaluate the
benefits a component
oriented architecture can bring to your application. If you don't know
that those are, shame on you :-).
Note that there are no functional limitations ( i.e. things you can do in
an action oriented framework
that you cannot do in an appropriately architected component framework),
so the key decision
point needs to be whether you can benefit from components or not.
Opinions that the underlying
architecture of the framework really matters to anyone beyond framework
geeks needs to be
*seriously* questioned :-).
* If you need to transition from Struts to a JSF-based architecture, it is
much less painful than you
might be led to believe by the currently popular FUD :-). And, as an
added benefit, transitioning
from what's likely to emerge from the WebWork merger into Struts Action
Framework 2 is going to
be even easier :-). The WW2 concept of an action class, and the JSF
notion of a backing bean,
are virtually indistinuishable. The only substantive differences are in
how you customize the
overall framework behavior ... and that is more in the "how do I do it"
details, rather than
"what can i do."
Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by "Frank W. Zammetti" <fz...@omnytex.com>.
Craig McClanahan wrote:
> Please try these opinions out on the MyFaces crowd :-).
Like I said in another post, there are certainly those that believe that
JSF is, to steal DJ's quote, the cat's meow. The MyFaces crowd would
clearly fall in that category :)
> In case you didn't
> know, that is an *Apache* project to produce an *Apache licensed*
> implementation of JSF, along with some cool components that conform to the
> spec.
I *was* aware of that, and frankly I like some of the Tomahawk
components quite a bit. Those, along with ADF as you mention below,
make JSF a lot more interesting for someone like me who, *at best*, is
on the fence.
> Popularity is growing like wildfire -- and that was already true even
> before the ADF Faces contribution that recently entered the Apache
> Incubator.
Growing like wildfire? Hmm... well, I'm certainly not intimately
familiar with that community, so I can't argue that point.
However, if your extrapolating the overall opinion of JSF from that of a
single community, I would say that may not be a good extrapolation. It
certainly would not match the opinion I get from the "community" of
contacts I have personally talked to... then again, *I* would be
extrapolating a larger opinion from a single community, so I'd be doing
no better :) I *have* done just that though, so I'm not about to hammer
you for doing the same :)
> Last time I looked, MyFaces has more active committers than Struts does
> (action framework and Shale folks combined), and *lots* more commit
> activity, if that is your criteria for success. (In case you are wondering,
> it's not mine).
Honestly, I'm not completely sure what my criteria is :) Commit
activity and number of committers certainly indicates a healthy
community around a given project, and I would say that factors into it
somewhere.
You know, at the risk of being labeled an enemy combatant - LOL - I have
to say that I think DJ has made one point over and over that I think is
reasonable: JSF is not new, it's been around, in Internet time, forever.
Yet, it only now seems to be gaining any sort of momentum in the
larger sense. I can't think of a single other similar technology that
mimics that. That may just make it unique of course, or it may say
something else about it. I'm not sure.
But, where DJ and I part ways is that he seems to believe that's the way
it always will be, and I do not. However I may feel about JSF now, I
recognize that I may have a very different opinion of it a year from
now, and I'm willing to continue evaluating it and allowing my opinion
to change as I see it warranted.
> Craig
Frank
(Hope your jet lag isn't too bad Craig! :) )
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Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Craig McClanahan <cr...@apache.org>.
On 3/15/06, Michael Jouravlev <jm...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 3/15/06, Craig McClanahan <cr...@apache.org> wrote:
> > On 3/14/06, Frank W. Zammetti <fz...@omnytex.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > Dakota Jack wrote:
> > > > For my part, I have to disagree with Frank. JSF has been around
> forever
> > > and
> > > > has no discernable traction. Perhaps that is the reason Craig is a
> > > little
> > > > testy nowadays. I don't know about that.
> > >
> > > I don't think it's fair to say it has no discernible traction. I
> > > *would* however agree that it hasn't gotten the traction that was
> hoped
> > > for. In either case, I for one am not sure at what point it is
> > > reasonable to completely dismiss something because it hasn't yet
> reached
> > > the top of the hill...
> >
> >
> > Please try these opinions out on the MyFaces crowd :-). In case you
> didn't
> > know, that is an *Apache* project to produce an *Apache licensed*
> > implementation of JSF, along with some cool components that conform to
> the
> > spec. Popularity is growing like wildfire -- and that was already true
> even
> > before the ADF Faces contribution that recently entered the Apache
> > Incubator.
> >
> > Last time I looked, MyFaces has more active committers than Struts does
> > (action framework and Shale folks combined), and *lots* more commit
> > activity, if that is your criteria for success. (In case you are
> wondering,
> > it's not mine).
> >
> > Craig
>
> So why again MyFaces is not under Struts umbrella while Shale is?
MyFaces is about (1) a compliant JSF implementation (it passes the JSF
1.1TCK), and (2) a library of JSF UI components.
Shale is about being an application framework that happens to extend the JSF
front controller capabilities (and therefore bypasses the need to
redundantly implement the application features that JSF does include, such
as page navigation). It is explicitly *not* interested in being either a
JSF implementation or a library of components -- it desires to provide
application level support for apps that want to use EITHER the JSF RI *or*
MyFaces implementation, as well as any JSF components that happen to be
around.
The two work together just fine, but they don't particularly overlap in
functionality or goals.
Michael.
Craig
Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Dakota Jack <da...@gmail.com>.
Hmmm? Isn't it the case that many were brought here just for Shale? That
does not seem to square with this prayer business. The reason people keep
asking is not because they are stupid but because something does not seem
right with the answers. I mean, really, how did some of these new
committers possibly become committers in Struts? Is Sean one of those you
could has "because they are here"? I think that the idea that prayer is a
request for something is itself somewhat odious. The problem with these
answers is that people that have been praying to help and to give, rather
than to received, and people who have made and could make really positive
contributions to Struts and have done so for years, people like Frank, are
passed over for these advocates who have absolutely no interest in Struts.
That is why the questions keep coming back. This is not about God. This is
about mammon.
On 3/15/06, Ted Husted <te...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 3/15/06, Michael Jouravlev <jm...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > So why again MyFaces is not under Struts umbrella while Shale is?
>
> Because, as it stands, the *people* who want to create Shale are
> already here, and this is where they would like to do the work.
>
> At some point in time, the individuals who are working on Shale and
> the individuals working on MyFaces might decide to work together on
> the MyFaces dev list. Or they might not. It's not possible to forecast
> what ten or twenty different people, working for various employers
> around the globe, might decide down the line.
>
> But, every decision involving an ASF project is made by the
> individuals doing the work, and no one else. This much I can
> guarantee. Of course, since the lunatics are in charge of the asylum,
> it should be no surpise that some of our decisions may seem crazy :)
>
> But, right now, I don't know who's crazier. The committers who make
> these decisions or the people who keep insisting on asking the same
> question again and again, just so we can give the same answer again
> and again.
>
> It's sad that some people don't like the answer, but asking again is
> not going to change anything. As the maxim goes, all prayers are
> answered, but sometimes the answer is no.
>
> -Ted.
>
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>
>
--
"You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back."
~Dakota Jack~
Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Michael Jouravlev <jm...@gmail.com>.
On 3/15/06, Ted Husted <te...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 3/15/06, Michael Jouravlev <jm...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > So why again MyFaces is not under Struts umbrella while Shale is?
>
> It's sad that some people don't like the answer, but asking again is
> not going to change anything. As the maxim goes, all prayers are
> answered, but sometimes the answer is no.
Yeah, I know. Thanks for anwering the stupid question anyway.
<OT>
A hospital. A doctor is making rounds. One patient does not show signs
of life, the doctor signs him off and tells to a nurse: "bring him
down to the morgue". In a hallway the patient, tied to a cart,
suddenly recovers, looks around and wonders: "Where are you bringing
me to?" - "To the morgue," - answers the nurse. "What?! But I am
alive!" - "Doctor said: to the morgue, he knows better."
</OT>
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Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by netsql <ne...@roomity.com>.
So I got to talk to a few start ups in SV. Here is my guess of market
share of new projects in '07. If you disagree, I will give you a refund.
1.C# is big ( Maverick.net I hope. I am surprised how many companies
are converting this quick) 35%
2.Ajax is big (client side, not emitted from server, any back end stack)
20%
3. SOA (like talking to ebay, 40% of ebay traffic is API) 10%
4.PHP! (Quercus I love) 5%
5.One could just lump all the JEE ones into a single bucket. Emitting UI
from server, like it's 1999? Who cares, is there someone left in a 3rd
world high school who still does not know html/css? Just maintain legacy
apps like is 3270. 3%
6. Other (Ruby.) X%
My hope is that Flash and then "SmartClient/WinFX" "generation follows
Ajax UI quicker rather than later. Maybe some SOA dispatcher would help
Groovy get market share, but Java??
Really, more choices competing for developers is a good thing.
.V
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Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by "Frank W. Zammetti" <fz...@omnytex.com>.
Wow, if your going to reference that, can we at least get a formatted
copy? :)
Ted Husted wrote:
> On 3/15/06, Frank W. Zammetti <fz...@omnytex.com> wrote:
>> That little disagreement ended with a bloody war, as we all know.
>
> We've already had our wars at Apache, and they resulted in the Rules
> for Revolutionaires.
>
> * http://incubator.apache.org/learn/rules-for-revolutionaries.html
>
>>>From our perspective, Shale is a revolution, and so is WebWork. Both
> Revolutions have succeeded, and both are first-class citizens of
> Apache Struts, just like the original Struts Action.
>
> Why is Shale Struts? Why is WebWork Struts? Because they were
> revolutions that succeeded. Pure and simple.
>
> It's not that deep. It's not that complicated. It all follows from the
> Rules for Revolutionaries.
>
> -Ted.
>
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>
>
>
> .
>
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Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Ted Husted <te...@gmail.com>.
On 3/15/06, Frank W. Zammetti <fz...@omnytex.com> wrote:
> That little disagreement ended with a bloody war, as we all know.
We've already had our wars at Apache, and they resulted in the Rules
for Revolutionaires.
* http://incubator.apache.org/learn/rules-for-revolutionaries.html
>From our perspective, Shale is a revolution, and so is WebWork. Both
Revolutions have succeeded, and both are first-class citizens of
Apache Struts, just like the original Struts Action.
Why is Shale Struts? Why is WebWork Struts? Because they were
revolutions that succeeded. Pure and simple.
It's not that deep. It's not that complicated. It all follows from the
Rules for Revolutionaries.
-Ted.
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Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by "Frank W. Zammetti" <fz...@omnytex.com>.
Ted Husted wrote:
> But, right now, I don't know who's crazier. The committers who make
> these decisions or the people who keep insisting on asking the same
> question again and again, just so we can give the same answer again
> and again.
>
> It's sad that some people don't like the answer, but asking again is
> not going to change anything. As the maxim goes, all prayers are
> answered, but sometimes the answer is no.
King George III kept giving the same answer to the same question over
and over too. He thought those asking the questions were crazy.
That little disagreement ended with a bloody war, as we all know.
Raising a concern, persistently, is the mark not of someone who is
crazy, but of someone who disagrees with the status quo and has the
balls to say so. I don't know if your comments were directed at me Ted,
but either way I strongly disagree with your assessment and have no
problem saying so.
I *think* what you were getting at is that those that want change should
shut up and do some work, as is the ASF way. On this I agree. Actions
speak louder than words. But that does not mean saying the words is a
bad thing, no matter how repetitively.
I'm sure your wife still likes to hear "I love you", even after all
these years... it's a good thing she doesn't consider you crazy for
constantly saying the same thing :)
> -Ted.
Frank
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Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Ted Husted <te...@gmail.com>.
On 3/15/06, Michael Jouravlev <jm...@gmail.com> wrote:
> So why again MyFaces is not under Struts umbrella while Shale is?
Because, as it stands, the *people* who want to create Shale are
already here, and this is where they would like to do the work.
At some point in time, the individuals who are working on Shale and
the individuals working on MyFaces might decide to work together on
the MyFaces dev list. Or they might not. It's not possible to forecast
what ten or twenty different people, working for various employers
around the globe, might decide down the line.
But, every decision involving an ASF project is made by the
individuals doing the work, and no one else. This much I can
guarantee. Of course, since the lunatics are in charge of the asylum,
it should be no surpise that some of our decisions may seem crazy :)
But, right now, I don't know who's crazier. The committers who make
these decisions or the people who keep insisting on asking the same
question again and again, just so we can give the same answer again
and again.
It's sad that some people don't like the answer, but asking again is
not going to change anything. As the maxim goes, all prayers are
answered, but sometimes the answer is no.
-Ted.
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Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Michael Jouravlev <jm...@gmail.com>.
On 3/15/06, Craig McClanahan <cr...@apache.org> wrote:
> On 3/14/06, Frank W. Zammetti <fz...@omnytex.com> wrote:
> >
> > Dakota Jack wrote:
> > > For my part, I have to disagree with Frank. JSF has been around forever
> > and
> > > has no discernable traction. Perhaps that is the reason Craig is a
> > little
> > > testy nowadays. I don't know about that.
> >
> > I don't think it's fair to say it has no discernible traction. I
> > *would* however agree that it hasn't gotten the traction that was hoped
> > for. In either case, I for one am not sure at what point it is
> > reasonable to completely dismiss something because it hasn't yet reached
> > the top of the hill...
>
>
> Please try these opinions out on the MyFaces crowd :-). In case you didn't
> know, that is an *Apache* project to produce an *Apache licensed*
> implementation of JSF, along with some cool components that conform to the
> spec. Popularity is growing like wildfire -- and that was already true even
> before the ADF Faces contribution that recently entered the Apache
> Incubator.
>
> Last time I looked, MyFaces has more active committers than Struts does
> (action framework and Shale folks combined), and *lots* more commit
> activity, if that is your criteria for success. (In case you are wondering,
> it's not mine).
>
> Craig
So why again MyFaces is not under Struts umbrella while Shale is?
Michael.
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Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Craig McClanahan <cr...@apache.org>.
On 3/14/06, Frank W. Zammetti <fz...@omnytex.com> wrote:
>
> Dakota Jack wrote:
> > For my part, I have to disagree with Frank. JSF has been around forever
> and
> > has no discernable traction. Perhaps that is the reason Craig is a
> little
> > testy nowadays. I don't know about that.
>
> I don't think it's fair to say it has no discernible traction. I
> *would* however agree that it hasn't gotten the traction that was hoped
> for. In either case, I for one am not sure at what point it is
> reasonable to completely dismiss something because it hasn't yet reached
> the top of the hill...
Please try these opinions out on the MyFaces crowd :-). In case you didn't
know, that is an *Apache* project to produce an *Apache licensed*
implementation of JSF, along with some cool components that conform to the
spec. Popularity is growing like wildfire -- and that was already true even
before the ADF Faces contribution that recently entered the Apache
Incubator.
Last time I looked, MyFaces has more active committers than Struts does
(action framework and Shale folks combined), and *lots* more commit
activity, if that is your criteria for success. (In case you are wondering,
it's not mine).
Craig
Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by "Frank W. Zammetti" <fz...@omnytex.com>.
Dakota Jack wrote:
> For my part, I have to disagree with Frank. JSF has been around forever and
> has no discernable traction. Perhaps that is the reason Craig is a little
> testy nowadays. I don't know about that.
I don't think it's fair to say it has no discernible traction. I
*would* however agree that it hasn't gotten the traction that was hoped
for. In either case, I for one am not sure at what point it is
reasonable to completely dismiss something because it hasn't yet reached
the top of the hill...
I know your a big fan of Spring Jack... I think it would have been
unfortunate, as I know you would have, if after three months of it being
released we said it hadn't gotten any traction yet and therefore should
be dismissed :) Granted, JSF has been around a heck of a lot longer
than 3 months, but that's precisely my point: 3 months vs. 3 years,
what's the right cut-off? I don't know.
My feelings about JSF are no secret to anyone that has been on this list
more than a few months. I'm not at all sold on it. I think it may well
be the right *general* direction (the event-driven model), but I'm not a
fan of the implementation. But, even having said that, I am in no way
ready to write it off yet, even in light of how long it's been around
without setting the world on fire, as we have been told many times it
would. The same goes for Shale by extension. The whole
marketing/Struts debate aside, Shale has every right to exist and
develop, and it may wind up being JSF done right for all I know!
And, to be fair, a new JSF spec version is forthcoming. Let's be
fair... it could well be that it will take off at that point. Just
because it may or may not have had a slow start doesn't mean it won't
ultimately succeed. You can count me right now as one of the
pessimists, but you may have to count me as one of the wrong ones down
the road :)
Frank
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Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Dakota Jack <da...@gmail.com>.
<snip>
On 3/14/06, Ted Husted <te...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> For us, it's not about branding or marketshare or any of that. It's
> about volunteer share. It's about which products that we, as
> engineeers, want to use to build our own applications.
</snip>
Of course JSF is at Struts because of marketing and branding. Get real!.
At least Craig admits that. Why else would Shale be at Struts? That was the
point of the Rod Johnson attributions, which I am sure Craig not only knew
the source but had the sentences virtually memorized. He is, as he says,
not fond of hearing them. I can understand that. But to make it a question
of attribution is laughable.
For my part, I have to disagree with Frank. JSF has been around forever and
has no discernable traction. Perhaps that is the reason Craig is a little
testy nowadays. I don't know about that.
--
"You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back."
~Dakota Jack~
Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Niall Pemberton <ni...@blueyonder.co.uk>.
I don't think they're"junk" - although I don't particularly like LDA. I
think disptach actions are an alternative "flavour" and its down to people
to select what they prefer. Probably docs explaining the different
implementations, how they work and their strengths/weaknesses would be a
good idea though.
Niall
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Jouravlev" <jm...@gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, March 15, 2006 9:41 AM
On 3/15/06, Niall Pemberton <ni...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Frank W. Zammetti" <fz...@omnytex.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, March 15, 2006 7:37 AM
>
> > I will say though, and I have said in the past, that accepting some of
> > the new ideas that come around every now and again, even if you don't
> > buy into them 100%, might help Struts grow quite a bit. I understand
> > you can't accept things you totally disagree with, and you can't accept
> > things you aren't willing to support yourself, but I do think there is
> > *some* degree of flexibility that perhaps isn't there now that could be.
> > I think that's another topic for another day though :)
>
> I agree, I would put all sorts of things in if I had time and to a certain
> extent I have. OK most of what I have done is a few minor enhancements and
> quite a few bug fixes - but alot of them didn't benefit me. I've done
quite
> a bit on i18n and I don't have an i81n app. Recently I added
> EventDispatchAction which I don't plan to use - but I appreciate the fact
> that Paul and Michael take part alot in this community and had put in
quite
> a bit of effort trying to get it accepted.
Niall, thanks for recognizing of Paul's and mine contribution. I
really aprecciate this. Still, your "I don't plan to use" stance as
part of more general "dispatching actions are useless junk" position
does not really preventing people from stumbling upon the same
deficiencies of older implementations again and again instead of using
newer better stuff. Classes that are obsoleted must be deprecated. I
do not insist on removing them from the framework, no way. Just
deprecating them will tell people that they use something old and
smelly, yuck. At the same time new classes should be advertised, not
just in wiki but in official docs. This I call progress.
Michael.
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Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Michael Jouravlev <jm...@gmail.com>.
On 3/15/06, Niall Pemberton <ni...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Frank W. Zammetti" <fz...@omnytex.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, March 15, 2006 7:37 AM
>
> > I will say though, and I have said in the past, that accepting some of
> > the new ideas that come around every now and again, even if you don't
> > buy into them 100%, might help Struts grow quite a bit. I understand
> > you can't accept things you totally disagree with, and you can't accept
> > things you aren't willing to support yourself, but I do think there is
> > *some* degree of flexibility that perhaps isn't there now that could be.
> > I think that's another topic for another day though :)
>
> I agree, I would put all sorts of things in if I had time and to a certain
> extent I have. OK most of what I have done is a few minor enhancements and
> quite a few bug fixes - but alot of them didn't benefit me. I've done quite
> a bit on i18n and I don't have an i81n app. Recently I added
> EventDispatchAction which I don't plan to use - but I appreciate the fact
> that Paul and Michael take part alot in this community and had put in quite
> a bit of effort trying to get it accepted.
Niall, thanks for recognizing of Paul's and mine contribution. I
really aprecciate this. Still, your "I don't plan to use" stance as
part of more general "dispatching actions are useless junk" position
does not really preventing people from stumbling upon the same
deficiencies of older implementations again and again instead of using
newer better stuff. Classes that are obsoleted must be deprecated. I
do not insist on removing them from the framework, no way. Just
deprecating them will tell people that they use something old and
smelly, yuck. At the same time new classes should be advertised, not
just in wiki but in official docs. This I call progress.
Michael.
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Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by "Frank W. Zammetti" <fz...@omnytex.com>.
On Wed, March 15, 2006 3:21 am, Niall Pemberton said:
> The
> thing I find really dishonest though, is I thought I would have to pay for
> java studio creator and now I find its free. This is just completely out
> of
> order and I feel let down and mis-lead. Same goes for ADF faces and
> JDeveloper.
HAHA! Excellent Niall, excellent! :)
> Niall
Frank
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Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Niall Pemberton <ni...@blueyonder.co.uk>.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Frank W. Zammetti" <fz...@omnytex.com>
Sent: Wednesday, March 15, 2006 7:37 AM
> I will say though, and I have said in the past, that accepting some of
> the new ideas that come around every now and again, even if you don't
> buy into them 100%, might help Struts grow quite a bit. I understand
> you can't accept things you totally disagree with, and you can't accept
> things you aren't willing to support yourself, but I do think there is
> *some* degree of flexibility that perhaps isn't there now that could be.
> I think that's another topic for another day though :)
I agree, I would put all sorts of things in if I had time and to a certain
extent I have. OK most of what I have done is a few minor enhancements and
quite a few bug fixes - but alot of them didn't benefit me. I've done quite
a bit on i18n and I don't have an i81n app. Recently I added
EventDispatchAction which I don't plan to use - but I appreciate the fact
that Paul and Michael take part alot in this community and had put in quite
a bit of effort trying to get it accepted.
> Back OT... I think #1 and #3 should be clarified... it's not "people"
> that don't like/agree or have interest or not... it's committers. They
> are the ones that ultimately make the decisions (on Struts, just like
> any other project) on what goes in. Unless you have something that
> there is huge community support for already, but I dare say that rarely
> happens. I'm not passing judgment in any form by the way, this is how
> an open-source project works, but in the interest of accuracy, I believe
> that is the correct way to state it.
Yes I meant committers.
Sorry not getting into politics, theres enough to get flamed on without
that! I would say though that I don't think anyones hiding the fact that JSF
was designed with tools in mind. Some would even say thats a good thing! The
thing I find really dishonest though, is I thought I would have to pay for
java studio creator and now I find its free. This is just completely out of
order and I feel let down and mis-lead. Same goes for ADF faces and
JDeveloper.
Niall
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Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by "Frank W. Zammetti" <fz...@omnytex.com>.
Niall Pemberton wrote:
> IMO any contribution that isn't accepted is for one of three reasons 1)
> People don't like/agree with it or 2) no-one had the time to look at it or
> 3) no-one was interested in it. I can only really speak for myself, and I
> didn't have the time. I understand your frustration and for my part I'm
> sorry - I can remember the days when...trying to get a committers attention.
I appreciate that, although I don't think you or anyone else has any
need to apologize :) Like I said, I'm long past the point of being
bitter/angry/annoyed/<insert pointless emotional state here>. They were
just the examples that came to mind.
I will say though, and I have said in the past, that accepting some of
the new ideas that come around every now and again, even if you don't
buy into them 100%, might help Struts grow quite a bit. I understand
you can't accept things you totally disagree with, and you can't accept
things you aren't willing to support yourself, but I do think there is
*some* degree of flexibility that perhaps isn't there now that could be.
I think that's another topic for another day though :)
Back OT... I think #1 and #3 should be clarified... it's not "people"
that don't like/agree or have interest or not... it's committers. They
are the ones that ultimately make the decisions (on Struts, just like
any other project) on what goes in. Unless you have something that
there is huge community support for already, but I dare say that rarely
happens. I'm not passing judgment in any form by the way, this is how
an open-source project works, but in the interest of accuracy, I believe
that is the correct way to state it.
> <snip>
>> I agree that it's fine for Sun, Oracle et al to do what they are doing,
>> whether it's hype or whatever else. It's capitalism, it seems to work,
>> and it's fine. What bugs me is when they, or anyone, tries to convince
>> you it's something else. Hey, tell me your trying to make a buck and I
>> might be willing to buy! It's seems minor perhaps, but it's not: when
>> you know a business is trying to make money and yet tries to sell you on
>> some altruistic goal of "making your life better as a developer", well,
>> there's a certain degree of dishonesty there. It may not be an outright
>> lie, they may really believe they are making things better, but it's
>> certainly not the primary motivation. I suppose one could argue it's
>> just sales in generak, and I suppose it is, but then again, isn't sales
>> always to some degree dishonest? I'm not naive, I understand what the
>> motivation beneath it all is, so don't try and convince me otherwise.
> </snip>
>
> Whos trying to convince you of something that they don't thinks true? Do you
> not think that when the JSF spec was developed they didn't think it was the
> "best thing since sliced bread" or are you saying that they decided to come
> up with something they believed was inferior on purpose with the whole
> intention of conning us into buying there tools? I don't buy that
Oh no, I made the mistake of going down that road once, and I won't do
it again :) However I may have thought on this topic in the past, I can
only tell you what I think now: no one is purposely trying to create an
inferior product. Those that are creating this or that are doing so
believing they are creating something worth-wild (me included). I *DO*
believe they created something specifically geared towards tooling, but
that is entirely different. I don't agree with that goal, but I don't
see it as dishonest or conning anyone, or anything like that. It is
simply a design goal that I happen to disagree with.
> - I
> believe the JSF expert group came up with what they thought was the best
> solution AND hoped to use it to sell lots of tools as well. Whats wrong with
> that?
That's exactly what I was going to say above. That dual purposes, I
believe, were what the goals were. And I agree, I see nothing wrong
with that... *IF* they will admit it.
I don't know if you have ever done any study on reading body language...
for a while it was a pet interest of mine. What it boils down to is
reading the minor incongruities between what a person says and what
their body says. More generally though, determining truthfulness is
detecting the minor incongruities. For instance, if all the expert
group ever says is we were trying to create something cool, we didn't
think about tool vendors, but the actions outside them seem to indicate
otherwise, there is a dishonesty.
Like body language, you can interpret things incorrectly sometimes, and
I do leave room for that possibility here. And, maybe people have been
speaking up all along saying "hey, these were our TWO goals". I'm not
saying no one ever did. I am not aware of it if anyone has though.
> I see nothing dishonest here. In most businesses they charge for
> everything - this is one of the few industries giving away loads of stuff
> for free and then when these companies do things to make money based on
> their freebies we accuse them of dishonesty? I just don't get this at all.
> Even if all the worst assumptions in these kinds of threads are all 100%
> true - then who cares, no-ones forcing anyone to use this stuff. We can all
> go off and write our own frameworks that do exactly what we want. If JSF is
> a roaring success because loads of companies "bought the marketing hype" -
> then whos to blame? Not the people selling in my book, its the
> people/companies that buy into it.
Well, let me try a real-world analogy on you... and I'll be taking a BIG
chance with it, given the current political climate :) ...
Are you for or against the war in Iraq? Did you buy into the reasons
given for it initially?
It is easy to say that if you bought what President Bush and PM Blair
were saying at the time then you have no one to blame but yourself...
you listened to the hype, you believed it, and you went along with what
they were selling. And that is to a large extent true. But, is there
not some accountability by those who did the hyping initially (I won't
say lying, but certainly hyping is fair to say regardless)? I think
there is too, and the public outcry against our president is proof of
that (I don't know how it's been across the pond with the PM).
Now, before anyone hammers it, this is not a perfect analogy of
course... we the people didn't have a heck of a lot of choice but to
follow our leaders. With JSF, it's pretty much entirely up to us. But
still, if there is spin-doctoring going on, if there is hype going on,
if there is a sales job going on, isn't there some blame on both sides?
You may say "but that's OK for a company trying to sell you something".
But again, I remind you of my premise that all sales is, to some
degree, a form of dishonesty by its very nature. Obviously if you don't
buy that premise, you wouldn't buy the rest :)
Note too that I *AM NOT* accusing anyone of outright dishonesty here...
I don't believe anyone is knowingly lying about anything. The vendors
do believe they are trying to sell something worth-wild, and the expert
group certainly thinks they are creating something good, and the JSF
boosters out there believe they are promoting something cool. The only
*potential* dishonesty is in not admitting the initial goals, which seem
pretty obvious to many of us (and are fine by me if admitted).
> Niall
Frank
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Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Niall Pemberton <ni...@blueyonder.co.uk>.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Frank W. Zammetti" <fz...@omnytex.com>
Sent: Wednesday, March 15, 2006 5:58 AM
<snip>
> But... at the risk of sounding like sour grapes (you'll just have to
> take my word for it when I say that isn't the case), what about
> something like my AJAX extensions to the HTML taglib? They were, IIRC,
> backwards-compatible. Yet they were not accepted because no committer
> was willing to accept them. What about my SetupItems?
> Strictly-speaking it broke backwards-compatibility, but only in terms of
> a DTD change, which, IIRC, has happened before with version upgrades.
> What about my update for adding anchors to forwards? Again, unless I am
> not remembering correctly, this too did not break backwards-compatibility.
>
> Again, I don't care that these things weren't accepted. I moved on long
> ago :) But the point is, these are examples of things that didn't get
> added because committers decided they shouldn't be. That is of course
> your right as a committer, and I have no argument with that. Maybe this
> goes more into #2 actual?Ö).
</snip>
IMO any contribution that isn't accepted is for one of three reasons 1)
People don't like/agree with it or 2) no-one had the time to look at it or
3) no-one was interested in it. I can only really speak for myself, and I
didn't have the time. I understand your frustration and for my part I'm
sorry - I can remember the days when...trying to get a committers attention.
<snip>
> I agree that it's fine for Sun, Oracle et al to do what they are doing,
> whether it's hype or whatever else. It's capitalism, it seems to work,
> and it's fine. What bugs me is when they, or anyone, tries to convince
> you it's something else. Hey, tell me your trying to make a buck and I
> might be willing to buy! It's seems minor perhaps, but it's not: when
> you know a business is trying to make money and yet tries to sell you on
> some altruistic goal of "making your life better as a developer", well,
> there's a certain degree of dishonesty there. It may not be an outright
> lie, they may really believe they are making things better, but it's
> certainly not the primary motivation. I suppose one could argue it's
> just sales in generak, and I suppose it is, but then again, isn't sales
> always to some degree dishonest? I'm not naive, I understand what the
> motivation beneath it all is, so don't try and convince me otherwise.
</snip>
Whos trying to convince you of something that they don't thinks true? Do you
not think that when the JSF spec was developed they didn't think it was the
"best thing since sliced bread" or are you saying that they decided to come
up with something they believed was inferior on purpose with the whole
intention of conning us into buying there tools? I don't buy that - I
believe the JSF expert group came up with what they thought was the best
solution AND hoped to use it to sell lots of tools as well. Whats wrong with
that? I see nothing dishonest here. In most businesses they charge for
everything - this is one of the few industries giving away loads of stuff
for free and then when these companies do things to make money based on
their freebies we accuse them of dishonesty? I just don't get this at all.
Even if all the worst assumptions in these kinds of threads are all 100%
true - then who cares, no-ones forcing anyone to use this stuff. We can all
go off and write our own frameworks that do exactly what we want. If JSF is
a roaring success because loads of companies "bought the marketing hype" -
then whos to blame? Not the people selling in my book, its the
people/companies that buy into it.
Niall
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Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by "Frank W. Zammetti" <fz...@omnytex.com>.
Interesting thoughts Niall! Some comments interspersed (because this
type of philosophical debate is, to me, just as important as the
technical stuff)...
Niall Pemberton wrote:
> IMO there are two main reasons for this:
> 1) Backwards compatibility - Struts was so successful that the impact of
> breaking backwards compatibility hampered innovation and change (much easier
> to break compatibility when theres only a few users).
Very true, backwards-compatibility definitely hampers forward momentum.
Just ask Microsoft :)
But... at the risk of sounding like sour grapes (you'll just have to
take my word for it when I say that isn't the case), what about
something like my AJAX extensions to the HTML taglib? They were, IIRC,
backwards-compatible. Yet they were not accepted because no committer
was willing to accept them. What about my SetupItems?
Strictly-speaking it broke backwards-compatibility, but only in terms of
a DTD change, which, IIRC, has happened before with version upgrades.
What about my update for adding anchors to forwards? Again, unless I am
not remembering correctly, this too did not break backwards-compatibility.
Again, I don't care that these things weren't accepted. I moved on long
ago :) But the point is, these are examples of things that didn't get
added because committers decided they shouldn't be. That is of course
your right as a committer, and I have no argument with that. Maybe this
goes more into #2 actual?Ö).
> 2) Lack of willingness to contribute back from the vast majority of
> businesses that use Struts.
Certainly most people and businesses do not give back. I absolutely
think that's true. But could part of the problem be a perception that
it's a pointless activity 99% of the time because the contributions
aren't going to be accepted anyway? I don't mean for that to sound
antagonistic, but maybe I'm the only one that is willing to say it... I
do believe that perception exists, whether rightly or wrongly so, and I
do believe it plays a part in people and groups not bothering to give back.
> The people who work on Struts do so in there own time as volunteers. Why
> haven't these businesses stepped up and paid for developers to work full
> time on this project? I may be doing them a dis-service since I don't know
> the history, but as an example BEA had a full time team developing Beehive
> based on Struts but to my knowledge never actually contributed to Struts.
> Why was that?
I think there is very clearly a feeling of getting something for nothing
among most companies using Struts, or any open-source product. It
doesn't benefit their bottom line, or so it's easy to convince
themselves, to contribute to something like Struts. I think a CIO that
could make a direct correlation between that $150,000 they might spend
on two full-time open-source developers and the boost to the bottom line
would be the first to succeed at that task :)
> Now companies such as Sun, Oracle etc. have put alot of resources into JSF
> including giving away lots of stuff away for free (e.g. ADF faces, Studio
> creator) - if thats "marketing hype" then they're putting their money where
> they're hype is. If they think that this strategy and JSF is a good way for
> them to make money, then they're free to do so and push it as hard as they
> want. Its not them or the people that have actually contributed to Struts
> that should be criticised or questioned for their motives. Its all those
> businesses that have taken and given nothing back - the silent majority.
> Where are the full time paid developers for Struts?
I agree that it's fine for Sun, Oracle et al to do what they are doing,
whether it's hype or whatever else. It's capitalism, it seems to work,
and it's fine. What bugs me is when they, or anyone, tries to convince
you it's something else. Hey, tell me your trying to make a buck and I
might be willing to buy! It's seems minor perhaps, but it's not: when
you know a business is trying to make money and yet tries to sell you on
some altruistic goal of "making your life better as a developer", well,
there's a certain degree of dishonesty there. It may not be an outright
lie, they may really believe they are making things better, but it's
certainly not the primary motivation. I suppose one could argue it's
just sales in generak, and I suppose it is, but then again, isn't sales
always to some degree dishonest? I'm not naive, I understand what the
motivation beneath it all is, so don't try and convince me otherwise.
I'm reminded of Aesop's fable, "The Scorpion and the Frog"...
A scorpion and a frog meet on the bank of a stream and the scorpion asks
the frog to carry him across on its back. The frog asks, "How do I know
you won't sting me?" The scorpion says, "Because if I do, I will die too."
The frog is satisfied, and they set out, but in midstream, the scorpion
stings the frog. The frog feels the onset of paralysis and starts to
sink, knowing they both will drown, but has just enough time to gasp "Why?"
Replies the scorpion: "It's my nature..."
If I'm the frog, I wouldn't so much be pissed that the scorpion stung
me. I knew it's nature... I would be pissed that it lied to me! (well,
and more so that I allowed it to fool me!)
> I agree that we (the struts PMC) have a responsibility to our users and so
> far I think we've fulfilled that - Struts is still being maintained and
> released.
But that's the easy part of the responsibility, and that goes into any
open-source project. Struts, like Hibernate, like Linux, like MySQL,
are on a different level. There's more to it than that. There is
setting a clear, consistent, well-articulated direction... there is
avoiding confusion from changes of direction that could be smoother...
there is making decisions that do not cause the user community undue
stress. There is a responsibility of leadership. It seems I may be
alone in this feeling, but I'm not afraid to say what I think.
Just maintaining the code is the easy part. Maintaining the integrity
of the project is the hard part.
> But I don't think the vast majority of businesses that have
> benefited from Struts have fulfilled their responsibility and so at the end
> of the day if JSF takes over or Struts stagnates then those business that
> have put nothing in, have nothing to complain about.
On this I totally agree. I know of extensions to Struts I've seen that
would have been great contributed back, but they weren't for whatever
reason (legal, supposed trade secrets, just plain lazyness or lack of
caring, etc). And your right, if Struts stagnates and JSF continues to
develop, very few people have cause to b***h about it because they
didn't even try to do anything about it when they had the chance.
> Niall
Frank
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Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Michael Jouravlev <jm...@gmail.com>.
On 3/14/06, Niall Pemberton <ni...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
> I'm interested in the question "why has the market leading web framework
> failed to evolve fast enough and retain its position as the technically best
> in its field (i.e. action orientated frameworks)?".
>
> IMO there are two main reasons for this:
> 1) Backwards compatibility - Struts was so successful that the impact of
> breaking backwards compatibility hampered innovation and change (much easier
> to break compatibility when theres only a few users).
I would make it shorter: "Struts was so successful that [the success]
hampered innovation and change."
Compatibility could be preserved. We see now 1.3 with command chain,
FormDef, HTML2, action dispatcher, validator and other useful things
that make life with Struts easier being compatible with older code.
Would be better if all good stuff appeared earlier and was promoted on
official Struts site as "new best practices". Instead, 1.3 is on the
verge of leaving the birth home, yet there is no official
documentation how to use its new features (or is there? Am I barking
on a wrong tree again?)
> 2) Lack of willingness to contribute back from the vast majority of
> businesses that use Struts.
Why only businesses? Do you mean financial contributions? Why discount
pure honest-to-code enthusiasts?
> as an example BEA had a full time team developing Beehive
> based on Struts but to my knowledge never actually contributed to Struts.
I am glad they did not. Hmm, looking back at what I was suggesting a
year ago I see that others are glad that stuff was not contributed
too. While still liking my old idea (and building on it) I clearly see
that implementation sucked. So, everyone is happy preserving this
little garden, this is just super.
> But I don't think the vast majority of businesses that have
> benefited from Struts have fulfilled their responsibility and so at the end
> of the day if JSF takes over or Struts stagnates then those business that
> have put nothing in, have nothing to complain about.
Can it be rephrased into a shorter "fuck them all"? Oh, maybe you
meant something completely different.
Michael J.
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Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Niall Pemberton <ni...@blueyonder.co.uk>.
I'm interested in the question "why has the market leading web framework
failed to evolve fast enough and retain its position as the technically best
in its field (i.e. action orientated frameworks)?".
IMO there are two main reasons for this:
1) Backwards compatibility - Struts was so successful that the impact of
breaking backwards compatibility hampered innovation and change (much easier
to break compatibility when theres only a few users).
2) Lack of willingness to contribute back from the vast majority of
businesses that use Struts.
The people who work on Struts do so in there own time as volunteers. Why
haven't these businesses stepped up and paid for developers to work full
time on this project? I may be doing them a dis-service since I don't know
the history, but as an example BEA had a full time team developing Beehive
based on Struts but to my knowledge never actually contributed to Struts.
Why was that?
Now companies such as Sun, Oracle etc. have put alot of resources into JSF
including giving away lots of stuff away for free (e.g. ADF faces, Studio
creator) - if thats "marketing hype" then they're putting their money where
they're hype is. If they think that this strategy and JSF is a good way for
them to make money, then they're free to do so and push it as hard as they
want. Its not them or the people that have actually contributed to Struts
that should be criticised or questioned for their motives. Its all those
businesses that have taken and given nothing back - the silent majority.
Where are the full time paid developers for Struts?
I agree that we (the struts PMC) have a responsibility to our users and so
far I think we've fulfilled that - Struts is still being maintained and
released. But I don't think the vast majority of businesses that have
benefited from Struts have fulfilled their responsibility and so at the end
of the day if JSF takes over or Struts stagnates then those business that
have put nothing in, have nothing to complain about.
Niall
----- Original Message -----
From: "Frank W. Zammetti" <fz...@omnytex.com>
Sent: Wednesday, March 15, 2006 4:25 AM
> Ted Husted wrote:
> >>From an open source perspective, terms like "succeed" and "fail" have
> > very different meanings. How many lurkers use a product isn't
> > important. What's important is how many people are willing to put ego
> > aside and collaborate on a product.
>
> Yes, that's the idealism of the open source perspective. I don't
> dispute that at all. But let's step back and be pragmatic for just a
> minute. JSF is a way for a lot of people to make money. Many vendors
> have a stake in its "commercial" success or failure. This has been true
> from the beginning. Some would say the whole point of JSF from the
> start was to make money for one company, and eventually a lot of other
> companies. Incidentally, I'm a happy capitalist, I therefore have no
> problem whatsoever with that! I just like that fact not being denied,
> and I for one do see it as fact. Contrast this with how something like
> Struts began, which came straight from the idealism you speak of, a
> desire to help a community, a desire by one developer to create
> something that not only helped themselves but helped others. I think
> that is a wonderful motivation. And that may have been that same
> developers' motivation with JSF as well, but I to this day do not
> believe it was the motivation of the larger entities involved.
>
> So, while there may be certain meanings in those two words "succeed" and
> fail", from a community perspective, there is also a meaning from a
> larger perspective, and it isn't the same.
>
> Frankly though, that's all noise in my mind... putting that all aside
> though, *I* was talking about success or failure in terms of developer
> mindshare, and nothing more. This is where I don't think any conclusion
> has been reached yet. Personally, I hope things continue as they are
> right now: JSF is one choice among many. That to me seems the best
> state of being. Options are good. JSF is an option. Therefore, in at
> least one sense, JSF is good :) It should be able to develop and grow
> its community, and if it winds up being what everyone decides they want
> to use, great! It shouldn't become that because some corporate entities
> have a stake in it becoming that.
>
> > Right now, we have volunteers who are ready, willing, and able to
> > contribute to the Shale codebase. We also have volunteers contributing
> > to Action and Action2.
>
> Exactly as it should be. I'd hate it if it were any other way, honestly.
>
> > The reason these products all live at Struts is because the *people*
> > who are building the products feel like we are all part of the same
> > team. We share the same values, and we are trying to solve the same
> > problems, even if we are solving them with different flavors of the
> > same underlying technologies. It's not up to anyone else. It's up to
> > the 15 members of the Apache Struts PMC, all of which have different
> > employers, and all of which have an equal say.
>
> Again, no problem. As you have pointed out many times, those that do
> the work set the direction. Again, as it should be. However, whatever
> the original intent, Struts has become a powerful brand. You can recite
> whatever philosophical ideals you want, but that doesn't change the
> reality of what Struts has become. As such, those making the decisions,
> have a certain responsibility IMO to "do right" by the brand.
>
> Of course, what "doing right" means is absolutely debatable :) I for
> one do not have any major problem with how things are at the moment. I
> did a few months back, but frankly it seems like the concerns I had have
> been addressed reasonably well for the most part. It looks like Paul
> might not agree :) As long as no one silences anyone else just because
> their opinion doesn't jive with your won ("your" being anyone, not you
> specifically Ted) then things are still as they should be.
>
> > For us, it's not about branding or marketshare or any of that. It's
> > about volunteer share. It's about which products that we, as
> > engineeers, want to use to build our own applications.
>
> This is where I do happen to disagree with you Ted. As I said earlier,
> Struts has become something more to a great many people. Many
> businesses rely on Struts. Many peoples' livelihoods depend on Struts.
> I hope you would agree with those statements. Because of that, you
> take on a greater responsibility than simply contributing. Of course
> you should be guided to a large degree by what you want to use to build
> your own applications. That's understandable and appropriate. But it
> you don't see yourself having a larger responsibility because of what
> Struts is to many people, I don't think you completely appreciate the
> position you have (again, I'm not speaking directly to you Ted, this is
> the metaphorical "you").
>
> This goes for any open-source project. Linus is still guided by what he
> wants to see in Linux, but I dare say he realizes he has a larger
> responsibility because of what Linux has become. His actions bear that
> out I think. The same should be true for any extremely popular
> open-source project IMO.
>
> > When people discuss our products, it's easy to miss the true point of
> > an Apache project. It's not about creating technology, it's about
> > *people* creating technologies. It's about real engineers working
> > together to solve our own problems. If our solutions solve other
> > people's problems too, that's great, but, for us, marketshare is not
> > the point of the exercise.
>
> But it has *become* at least *part* of the exercise. Struts has. When
> an open-source project gets to a certain level of acceptance, there
> *has* to be a point where responsibility to others kicks in.
>
> You know, we're always talking about building community... it seems to
> me that part of being involved in a community is responsibility to
> others. You can't be part of a community and yet exist in a vacuum. If
> you take on a role as a leader in an open-source project, you have to
> understand that other people are in fact counting on you. Yes, it is
> there choice to do so, and they accept a certain degree of risk in doing
> so, but don't you have at least *some* obligation to them as a leader in
> that project? We can debate the degrees here, but can we really debate
> that underlying thesis?
>
> > -Ted.
>
> Frank
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Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Paul Benedict <pa...@yahoo.com>.
>> I think that any project has to have some coherent message ...
>> to have such an incoherent message due to this Action/Shale
>> bifurcation seems very negative. It just seems complicated and
>> confused.
Jonathan, I whole heartedly agree. I do not know who came up with the idea
that "Struts" is now an umbrealla label supporting multiple frameworks,
but whoever did, I think, made a bad decision in regards to confusing
what "Struts" is. Most of the philosophical problems we are dicussing
on this board are readily observant; and I like to point them out because
"you can't change what you don't acknowledge" (Dr. Phil).
Now I've been told before this is similar to the "Jakarta" umbrella
label -- except it's not. Jakarta has always been an umbrella label
that holds multiple projects; Struts, generally speaking, started out
as one framework and has mainly stayed there (even with Tiles).
Oh well, this doesn't matter to the "engineers" but if it matters to
anyone else, it's worth speaking out about.
Paul
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Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Hey Nony Moose <he...@liveonthe.net>.
incidentally, I now think that there has been far more mud slung in this
thread than I am personally and professionally comfortable with. if my
few comments have in any way caused discomfort, i apologise.
live long and prosper,
H.N.Moose
Hey Nony Moose wrote:
>perhaps this thread is now "has struts reached the obfuscation"
>
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Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Hey Nony Moose <he...@liveonthe.net>.
perhaps this thread is now "has struts reached the obfuscation"
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Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Hey Nony Moose <he...@liveonthe.net>.
Jonathan Revusky wrote:
> <snip> ... person who visits your website and starts looking at the
> mail archive and so on has to be able to figure out quite quickly "WTF
> is struts" and to have such an incoherent message due to this
> Action/Shale bifurcation seems very negative. It just seems
> complicated and confused. ... </snip>
... as a low-order coder, with a smaller brain than the demi-gods of
code, I too would come to this conclusion. my first impression is that
there are 3 things called Struts now in existance:
1/ Struts Classic (*real* Struts), ie: Struts versioned <2
2/ Struts WebWork ie: Struts versioned >=2
3/ Struts Shale ie: Struts JSF, any version
my second impression is that each one is substantially if not totally
different internally, interfacially and implementationally to each
other, so don't bother swapping once your investment is in one. you
pick one and one only to use, they don't work together, they compete for
application choice.
can someone with a bigger brain confirm, deny or fix this up?
ta
A Lost Moose
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Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Alexandre Poitras <al...@gmail.com>.
Anyway, Dakota I don't see the point to continue this argument since I
honestly think you haven't really give a try to JSF or looked deeply
into its design. You have shown more then one time your ignorance
about it. Yes, it is a fallacy, but I am justifying an opinion here
and not a fact ;).
I am not active a lot on this list (Maven 2 has been my favorite toy
lately) but I read it quite often and I have seen you bashing JSF
quite a lot in the last 6 months by making false statements or using
personal attacks. I can't count how many times I have stopped myself
from replying but I think this thread was the good opportunity because
it was questionning Shale pertinence. Spread all the FUD you want but
I think most people know your game now (is it the same expression in
english??) . I have nothing against classic Struts, WebWork or action
frameworks in general (and I deeply respect the people who have put so
much time and efforts in those products). They have served me well in
the past but I find them too much procedural oriented and after having
worked with JSF I am a lot more productive with components oriented
frameworks. I stay here mainly because of Shale, which is a very good
product by the way.
On 3/20/06, Dakota Jack <da...@gmail.com> wrote:
> You said it came from Struts. Jeesch`
>
> <snip>
> On 3/20/06, Alexandre Poitras <al...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > > These distinctions bo back before Java itself and are not Struts
> > progeny.
> >
> > I have programmed in Smalltalk and used Swing API in the past so I
> > have don't narrow my point of view to my Struts experience indeed.
>
>
> </snip>
>
>
>
>
> --
> "You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back."
> ~Dakota Jack~
>
>
--
Alexandre Poitras
Québec, Canada
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Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Henri Yandell <fl...@gmail.com>.
On 3/20/06, Frank W. Zammetti <fz...@omnytex.com> wrote:
> You might be interested in the bylaws I wrote for Java Web Parts:
>
> http://sourceforge.net/docman/?group_id=140728
>
> Most importantly in the context of this discussion is the fact that
> ANYONE who contributes AT ALL can vote and HAVE THEIR VOTE COUNT.
> Non-contributors can vote too, but are non-binding (I am considering
> changing this).
>
> I have a weighting system for how peoples' votes count... "contributors"
> count as 1, "developers" (aka committers) count as 1.5 and
> "administrators" (aka the PMC) count as 2. The only requirement is that
> a person be subscribed to the mailing list, since all voting takes place
> there. There is a formula used to calculate the final result of a vote,
> and simple majority carries the vote.
This is overkill Frank. Anyone who votes, and has their vote listened
to, counts. The act of being listened to is whether it counts, not
whether it gets put in the binding or non-binding section.
A -1 from a contributor is going to get listened to, regardless of
whether or not they are a committer (still not a binding vote) or on
the PMC. -1's must have justifications though, else they'll just get
ignored.
Hen
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Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Dakota Jack <da...@gmail.com>.
Essentially your own citations support everything i have been saying, oddly
enough. Read your citation http://websphere.sys-con.com/read/46516.htm .
It is excellent.
On 3/20/06, Alexandre Poitras <al...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Here is more information Dakota :
> http://www.phpwact.org/pattern/model_view_controller
>
> "Because the popular MVC framework Struts implements a combined Front
> Controller and Application Controller, some people assume that this is
> what is meant by the MVC pattern in the context of a web application.
> For the same reason, many descriptions of the Front Controller pattern
> on the web do not draw the distinction between a Front Controller and
> a Application Controller."
>
>
>
> On 3/20/06, Frank W. Zammetti <fz...@omnytex.com> wrote:
> > Jonathan Revusky wrote:
> > > A third point that I must make in this context is that, though, in the
> > > above, I am criticizing the "electoral democracy" aspects of this, I
> > > actually don't subscribe to the idea that an open source project is a
> > > one man-one vote democracy of any sort anyway. For example, in the
> > > FreeMarker project, the opinion of somebody who has made some tiny
> > > contribution to the code (and is thus a "committer") cannot be
> > > considered equal to mine, when simply most of the current core code
> base
> > > was written by me. And thus, the idea that this person's vote is equal
> > > to mine strikes me as absurd. It would be equally absurd if I joined
> > > another project, and after making a nominal contribution, considered
> > > that my vote was equal to that of someone who had written, say, 80% of
> > > the code.
> >
> > You might be interested in the bylaws I wrote for Java Web Parts:
> >
> > http://sourceforge.net/docman/?group_id=140728
> >
> > Most importantly in the context of this discussion is the fact that
> > ANYONE who contributes AT ALL can vote and HAVE THEIR VOTE COUNT.
> > Non-contributors can vote too, but are non-binding (I am considering
> > changing this).
> >
> > I have a weighting system for how peoples' votes count... "contributors"
> > count as 1, "developers" (aka committers) count as 1.5 and
> > "administrators" (aka the PMC) count as 2. The only requirement is that
> > a person be subscribed to the mailing list, since all voting takes place
> > there. There is a formula used to calculate the final result of a vote,
> > and simple majority carries the vote.
> >
> > By the way, the definition of "contributor" is "anyone that contributes
> > to JWP". I probably should refine that definition a bit :) But, the
> > point is that I wanted it to be a very low barrier of entry, so even if
> > you just point out a batch of spelling errors in the documentation, you
> > would be considered a contributor and get a counted vote.
> >
> > I bet some of the people on the contributors list don't even know they
> > have a vote! :) In truth though, we have yet to have an actual vote on
> > anything, so I suppose it's all untested.
> >
> > The voting system is perhaps a bit convoluted, but I tried to write it
> > in such a way that no one person, INCLUDING ME, could grab control of
> > the project. There is also veto power on all votes, and more
> > importantly, an override provision... for instance, while I as an
> > Administrator can veto any vote, either of the other two developers can
> > call for an override vote. I of course cannot vote in the override
> > vote, and if my veto is overridden, that's the final word, I cannot
> > override the veto.
> >
> > I have no doubt there are flaws in my system, but my goal was to give
> > everyone a voice, and to ensure that the will of the majority would be
> > done no matter what.
> >
> > Frank
> >
> > --
> > Frank W. Zammetti
> > Founder and Chief Software Architect
> > Omnytex Technologies
> > http://www.omnytex.com
> > AIM: fzammetti
> > Yahoo: fzammetti
> > MSN: fzammetti@hotmail.com
> > Java Web Parts -
> > http://javawebparts.sourceforge.net
> > Supplying the wheel, so you don't have to reinvent it!
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Alexandre Poitras
> Québec, Canada
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
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>
>
--
"You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back."
~Dakota Jack~
Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Dakota Jack <da...@gmail.com>.
You said it came from Struts. Jeesch`
<snip>
On 3/20/06, Alexandre Poitras <al...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > These distinctions bo back before Java itself and are not Struts
> progeny.
>
> I have programmed in Smalltalk and used Swing API in the past so I
> have don't narrow my point of view to my Struts experience indeed.
</snip>
--
"You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back."
~Dakota Jack~
Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Alexandre Poitras <al...@gmail.com>.
On 3/20/06, Dakota Jack <da...@gmail.com> wrote:
> MVC is not a "pattern" and never has been. MVC is composed of various
> patterns, e.g. the relation between the view and the controller is normally
> based on the Strategy Pattern and the relation between the view and the
> model is normally based on the Observer Pattern. There are others.
> Further, the web cannot, for obvious reasons implement the classical MVC GUI
> archietecture. There is, for that reason, a web-MVC. Again, as Ted has
> pointed out, the web-MVC is based on the view --> controller --> model or
> controller --> model --> view , depending on whether you are talking about
> the request or response. If you couple up the whole shebang with both view
> --> controller and view --> model, I am personally not interested because
> that is a design mess.
>
First, the Strategy Pattern is one STRATEGY to implements the
controller, it isn't essential. JSF goes this when it handles event.
It looks at the nature and the source of event, and then execute the
registered listeners. It isn't different from what Struts does. Struts
look at the request which can be seen as an event by the way and
handles it to the correct action, which is in reality a request event
handler.
Once again, a view in JSF knows nothing of the controller, I don't
know where you have taken this part.
>From what I know, the web MVC exist because the model can't send event
to the controller or to the view, hence the Observer pattern can't be
used, because of the nature of the Http Protocol. Basically you loose
the interactions coming from the model to the controller and the view.
> These distinctions bo back before Java itself and are not Struts progeny.
I have programmed in Smalltalk and used Swing API in the past so I
have don't narrow my point of view to my Struts experience indeed.
--
Alexandre Poitras
Québec, Canada
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Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Dakota Jack <da...@gmail.com>.
MVC is not a "pattern" and never has been. MVC is composed of various
patterns, e.g. the relation between the view and the controller is normally
based on the Strategy Pattern and the relation between the view and the
model is normally based on the Observer Pattern. There are others.
Further, the web cannot, for obvious reasons implement the classical MVC GUI
archietecture. There is, for that reason, a web-MVC. Again, as Ted has
pointed out, the web-MVC is based on the view --> controller --> model or
controller --> model --> view , depending on whether you are talking about
the request or response. If you couple up the whole shebang with both view
--> controller and view --> model, I am personally not interested because
that is a design mess.
These distinctions bo back before Java itself and are not Struts progeny.
On 3/20/06, Alexandre Poitras <al...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Here is more information Dakota :
> http://www.phpwact.org/pattern/model_view_controller
>
> "Because the popular MVC framework Struts implements a combined Front
> Controller and Application Controller, some people assume that this is
> what is meant by the MVC pattern in the context of a web application.
> For the same reason, many descriptions of the Front Controller pattern
> on the web do not draw the distinction between a Front Controller and
> a Application Controller."
>
>
>
> On 3/20/06, Frank W. Zammetti <fz...@omnytex.com> wrote:
> > Jonathan Revusky wrote:
> > > A third point that I must make in this context is that, though, in the
> > > above, I am criticizing the "electoral democracy" aspects of this, I
> > > actually don't subscribe to the idea that an open source project is a
> > > one man-one vote democracy of any sort anyway. For example, in the
> > > FreeMarker project, the opinion of somebody who has made some tiny
> > > contribution to the code (and is thus a "committer") cannot be
> > > considered equal to mine, when simply most of the current core code
> base
> > > was written by me. And thus, the idea that this person's vote is equal
> > > to mine strikes me as absurd. It would be equally absurd if I joined
> > > another project, and after making a nominal contribution, considered
> > > that my vote was equal to that of someone who had written, say, 80% of
> > > the code.
> >
> > You might be interested in the bylaws I wrote for Java Web Parts:
> >
> > http://sourceforge.net/docman/?group_id=140728
> >
> > Most importantly in the context of this discussion is the fact that
> > ANYONE who contributes AT ALL can vote and HAVE THEIR VOTE COUNT.
> > Non-contributors can vote too, but are non-binding (I am considering
> > changing this).
> >
> > I have a weighting system for how peoples' votes count... "contributors"
> > count as 1, "developers" (aka committers) count as 1.5 and
> > "administrators" (aka the PMC) count as 2. The only requirement is that
> > a person be subscribed to the mailing list, since all voting takes place
> > there. There is a formula used to calculate the final result of a vote,
> > and simple majority carries the vote.
> >
> > By the way, the definition of "contributor" is "anyone that contributes
> > to JWP". I probably should refine that definition a bit :) But, the
> > point is that I wanted it to be a very low barrier of entry, so even if
> > you just point out a batch of spelling errors in the documentation, you
> > would be considered a contributor and get a counted vote.
> >
> > I bet some of the people on the contributors list don't even know they
> > have a vote! :) In truth though, we have yet to have an actual vote on
> > anything, so I suppose it's all untested.
> >
> > The voting system is perhaps a bit convoluted, but I tried to write it
> > in such a way that no one person, INCLUDING ME, could grab control of
> > the project. There is also veto power on all votes, and more
> > importantly, an override provision... for instance, while I as an
> > Administrator can veto any vote, either of the other two developers can
> > call for an override vote. I of course cannot vote in the override
> > vote, and if my veto is overridden, that's the final word, I cannot
> > override the veto.
> >
> > I have no doubt there are flaws in my system, but my goal was to give
> > everyone a voice, and to ensure that the will of the majority would be
> > done no matter what.
> >
> > Frank
> >
> > --
> > Frank W. Zammetti
> > Founder and Chief Software Architect
> > Omnytex Technologies
> > http://www.omnytex.com
> > AIM: fzammetti
> > Yahoo: fzammetti
> > MSN: fzammetti@hotmail.com
> > Java Web Parts -
> > http://javawebparts.sourceforge.net
> > Supplying the wheel, so you don't have to reinvent it!
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Alexandre Poitras
> Québec, Canada
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
>
>
--
"You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back."
~Dakota Jack~
Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Dakota Jack <da...@gmail.com>.
Heh, Frank. LOL At least this exchange has a bit more fun. My point was
that in a real way the world WAS different because my mother changed it.
She changed it by including in her space people my father would not trust.
My father was not a really aggressive driver. He was convinced that others
were. That was the problem. He couldn't see that they were not trying to
run him off the road but just wanted to merge, even if they were a bit inept
at doing that. The point follows:
Very, very few people on the road are actually out to cause problems on
purpose. The problem usually comes when someone wants to do something and
another person thwarts them. Then things esculate quickly because they
don't have the skill to deal with the problems of being thwarted
gracefully. If you think you have to thwart them, you will engender
unnecessary problems, even road rage. If you have a bit of trust and are
able to get out of the way, you will engender courtesy and kindness. This
is true in New York as well as Iowa. That is the point.
The supposed worry about really evil people in open source is actually a
failure to see how generous and how kind almost everyone, if not everyone,
on these lists can be when involved in an interchange where they are
valued. I admit to being more like my dad on many occasions on this list.
I don't think my dad was a horrible person. I make some of the same
mistakes I saw in him regularly. Maybe some day I won't. Anyway, I see a
lot of my mom in Jonathan's approach. My experience is that it works
better.
On 3/21/06, Frank W. Zammetti <fz...@omnytex.com> wrote:
>
> Are you trying to say that driving ISN'T dangerous and that there AREN'T
> tons of "crazies" on the road? Are you saying that defensive driving,
> as we were all taught growing up, isn't prudent? You must have never
> driven in New York if you don't think so :)
>
> There is a big difference between trying to work with people and
> ignoring the dangers in the world. Trying to avoid the dangers is good.
> In fact, I would submit that I am more like your mother: she obviously
> saw the same dangers your father did, but she chose to avoid them by
> working nicely with people rather than fighting them (I infer that your
> father was a fairly aggressive driver?).
>
> Frank
>
> Dakota Jack wrote:
> > When I was young, when my dad would drive, the whole world of cars would
> be
> > crazy and dangerous. When my mom would drive, everything
> changed. When
> > you let people merge rather than try to cut them off, amazing things
> > happen. The world changes. In this thread, Frank is like my dad and
> > Jonathan is like my mom. My dad's defensive moves were in fact the
> cause of
> > the problem. I basically have to agree with Jonathan on this one.
> >
> > On 3/21/06, Frank W. Zammetti <fz...@omnytex.com> wrote:
> >> Jonathan Revusky wrote:
> >>> I guess you and I think quite differently about certain things. In
> >>> another part of this discussion, you mentioned malice as a reason not
> to
> >>> give people commit access on an "on-demand" basis. However, this is
> >>> something that hardly occurs to me as being much of a reason. In the
> >>> above, you mention the idea that your secret voting mechanism could be
> >>> "cooked" or people could suspect it is. This also never really
> occurred
> >>> to me. I guess I just have a certain basic trust in the ethics of
> other
> >>> open source people, and it does not occur to me that someone would
> cook
> >>> the voting or that anybody would think that I would cook the voting.
> >> No question I tend to take a pessimistic view of things until I have
> >> reason to believe otherwise. I dare say all you have to do is look
> >> around the world and you will see more evidence to support that
> >> perspective than the more positive perspective. Sad, but I think true.
> >>
> >> But you say "...certain basic trust in the ethics of other open source
> >> people..."... do you mean that you would allow anonymous, full commit
> >> privileges to anyone and everyone? In other words, a situation where
> >> anyone who wants to, whether they have ever seen the project before or
> >> not, can commit to the repository. This I absolutely think is a bad
> >> idea. A very bad one at that.
> >>
> >>> But look, if somebody distrusts your ethics to that extent, why would
> >>> they be in your community?
> >> I guess it could be more me expecting people to be expecting the worst
> >> of me :)
> >>
> >>> Well, you know, it could also be that a public vote is preferred
> because
> >>> project leaders are (at least vaguely) aware that if the vote is
> public
> >>> people are less likely to disagree with them. (Of course, that is not
> >>> exactly a legitimate reason.)
> >> That could be part of it, sure.
> >>
> >> But now, which one of us has the basic distrust issue here?? ;) LOL
> >>
> >>> Well, if it comes into play at all, it should be considered.
> >> I would generally agree.
> >>
> >>> Well, maybe (just maybe, I'm not really *so* presumptuous) the next
> step
> >>> of evolution of your thinking is to move more towards implicitly
> >>> trusting people. I mean: trust people to be acting in good faith until
> >>> proven otherwise. Trust people to be at least moderately competent
> until
> >>> proven otherwise.
> >> With the potential of major effort to clean up a corrupt source
> >> repository, I don't think you can do that. Just my opinion.
> >>
> >>> In general, in this kind of collaborative internet model, don't you
> have
> >>> to make a leap of faith and implicitly trust (until proven otherwise,
> of
> >>> course) people you've never met?
> >> To some degree, yes. But what that degree is, well, that's where we
> >> don't completely agree :) I think there has to be *some* vetting that
> >> takes place, no matter how minor.
> >>
> >> Look at it this way... let's say you have 20 people actively working on
> >> a project, doing fantastic work. All of a sudden, you let the 21st
> >> person in, and they proceed to commit some less than stellar work, or
> >> maybe even break code because they don't yet have a good understanding
> >> of the project. Is that fair to the 20 others? Even if it can all be
> >> undone, is it fair for any of them to have to take the time to do so?
> >>
> >> I could quote Spock here, but I probably don't need to :)
> >>
> >>> You see, what is the alternative? If you don't trust people by
> default,
> >>> then how is trust established?
> >>>
> >>> I mean, this seems to be related to the catch 22 problem that you
> become
> >>> a committer by contributing a lot, but it's practically impossible to
> >>> contribute without being a committer in the first place, Craig never
> >>> responded to this basic question. (Somehow, I suspect he won't.)
> >> But this is where the attitude of the committers (of any project, not
> >> talking Struts specifically here) comes into play. They have to be
> >> willing to accept contributions that don't come from themselves. If
> >> that is the case, a person can build up that trust and build up that
> >> reputation that leads to an invitation to join. One could even
> envision
> >> a situation where a person submits 10 things, none of them is accepted,
> >> and the person is still invited to join. That obviously would require
> >> the existing committers have a very open-mindedness about them, but it
> >> could happen. This serves your point of view and mine: there is a
> >> vetting process that I like, and there is a basic trust by default for
> >> you, maybe not quite to the degree you like, but I think its a
> >> reasonable compromise position.
> >>
> >>> But the real problem here, that just about everybody seems to be
> >>> skirting around is that, given the utter failure of the Struts
> community
> >>> to compete with Webwork technically, there surely is a need for an
> >>> open-minded exchange of ideas about these project management issues.
> And
> >>> the people who lost the technical competition (the Struts people)
> >>> should, by the basic logic and structure of competitition, adopt a
> >>> fairly humble attitude about these topics.
> >> Can you point out where Struts has "utterly failed" to compete with
> >> Webwork technically? I've looked at Struts 1.3, and I've looked at WW,
> >> and I don't see them as being light years apart frankly. I certainly
> >> think there are pluses and minuses both ways, but the one thing that
> >> struck me the most when I was reading about WW was how essentially
> >> similar to Struts it was, and I didn't see anything that made me sit up
> >> and go "oh wow, that's SO much better than Struts".
> >>
> >>> Well, it's like the alcoholic who has to admit that he has a problem,
> >>> this community would have to admit that it has certain problems for
> any
> >>> improvements to occur. But of course, since they won't admit it, no
> >>> improvements will occur and.... well,... look, it's obviously a lost
> >>> cause.... (I quickly came to that conclusion after reading some of
> >>> Craig's (and Ted's) recent comments.)
> >> Hehe, ironically, we've flipped positions :) I actually have a great
> >> deal of hope for the Struts community. Firstly, I don't think it's in
> >> quite as much disarray as others may. I think there is room for
> >> improvement, but I don't think it's doomed or anything like that.
> >>
> >>> I actually am not somebody with strong opinions at the moment about
> web
> >>> app development. I don't know so much about Spring and other
> frameworks
> >>> and so on. However, just from what I observe lurking in this
> community,
> >>> I would have one recommendation for anybody who asked my opinion on
> >>> these matters. And that is: Whatever else you decide on, do not use
> >>> Struts (I mean, don't use Struts Classic, don't use Struts Action,
> don't
> >>> use Struts Shale) because the community is dysfunctional... major
> league
> >>> FUBAR...
> >> This I can't agree with. The 1.2.x branch of Struts is in pretty good
> >> shape... one of the reasons there hasn't been a lot of evolution is
> that
> >> it *is* stable and does the job for a lot of people. The 1.3 branch
> >> brings a lot of power, but it almost feels superfluous with the pending
> >> WW merger (I have my suspicion that it hasn't gotten the attention it
> >> should have ever since the merger decision was made, but that's just my
> >> suspicion). Shale, however you or I may feel about it, continues to
> >> evolve and get better, and again, putting our feelings about it aside,
> >> there is no doubt more and more people are finding it interesting.
> >>
> >>> I really don't know either. I say that this kind of thing is something
> >>> not to be approached dogmatically. It's like the question of how much
> >>> strictness and discipline to use in child-rearing. You need some but
> you
> >>> can also overdo it.
> >> Agreed. It's all a question of degrees.
> >>
> >>> I think a lot of what has to happen revolves around common sense, and
> >>> common sense, like intuition and so on, is going to be quite hard to
> >>> formalize into a set of rules. Personally, I don't take the idea of
> >>> formalized voting that seriously. I think an open-source project is
> >>> surely more like a dictatorship. But the dictator needs to listen to
> >>> people. It just occurred to me that one basic difference between a
> >>> dictatorship and this is that in a dictatorship like Sadam's Iraq or
> >>> someplace, the Iraqis just had to keep living there. In an open-source
> >>> project, everybody can just leave and you're left dictating to nobody
> >>> but yourself.
> >> I think a "benevolent" dictatorship in an open-source project is only
> >> ever appropriate in the early stages of a project. In many cases, a
> >> single individual has the original idea, has the original vision, and
> >> they get the ball rolling. After that though, they should give up that
> >> power and let the community drive. This is the path JWP took.
> >>
> >> The one argument against my own position is in direction-setting. One
> >> of the things that has made Linux so successful is Linus still kind of
> >> guiding things. Part of me really hates that he hasn't given up his
> >> control (and, contrary to anything he might say, he *does* have more
> >> power than anyone else), but another part of me thinks that Linux would
> >> never have gotten as far as it has without him as the guiding force.
> >>
> >> If I have a choice though, I would rather a democracy fail than a
> >> dictatorship succeed. There is something at a very low, fundamental
> >> level that I just abhor about not giving people a voice, freedom and
> >> choice.
> >>
> >>> I say that no formalized voting system will substitute a basic need to
> >>> be able to listen to people in an open-minded way (that means,
> >>> considering seriously the possibility that you are wrong) and being
> >>> flexible and so on.
> >> I agree.
> >>
> >>> This actually reminds me of the various attempts to set up democracy
> in
> >>> backward, third world places. These countries do not have the basic
> >>> institutions or culture of democracy. Having the formal vote does not
> >>> make them into democracies.
> >> I agree again. But what it DOES give them is a vote. There is no
> >> trusting that the leaders will be open-minded. You have clearly stated
> >> you don't feel the Struts committers are being open-minded, so in the
> >> case of Struts, from your point of view, your own philosophy has
> failed.
> >> If there was at least a formalized vote, the closed-mindedness you
> >> perceive would have far less impact, and possibly even none.
> >>
> >>> Jonathan Revusky
> >> Frank
> >>
> >> --
> >> Frank W. Zammetti
> >> Founder and Chief Software Architect
> >> Omnytex Technologies
> >> http://www.omnytex.com
> >> AIM: fzammetti
> >> Yahoo: fzammetti
> >> MSN: fzammetti@hotmail.com
> >> Java Web Parts -
> >> http://javawebparts.sourceforge.net
> >> Supplying the wheel, so you don't have to reinvent it!
> >>
> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> >> For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > --
> > "You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its
> back."
> > ~Dakota Jack~
> >
>
> --
> Frank W. Zammetti
> Founder and Chief Software Architect
> Omnytex Technologies
> http://www.omnytex.com
> AIM: fzammetti
> Yahoo: fzammetti
> MSN: fzammetti@hotmail.com
> Java Web Parts -
> http://javawebparts.sourceforge.net
> Supplying the wheel, so you don't have to reinvent it!
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
>
>
--
"You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back."
~Dakota Jack~
Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Alexandre Poitras <al...@gmail.com>.
Here is more information Dakota :
http://www.phpwact.org/pattern/model_view_controller
"Because the popular MVC framework Struts implements a combined Front
Controller and Application Controller, some people assume that this is
what is meant by the MVC pattern in the context of a web application.
For the same reason, many descriptions of the Front Controller pattern
on the web do not draw the distinction between a Front Controller and
a Application Controller."
On 3/20/06, Frank W. Zammetti <fz...@omnytex.com> wrote:
> Jonathan Revusky wrote:
> > A third point that I must make in this context is that, though, in the
> > above, I am criticizing the "electoral democracy" aspects of this, I
> > actually don't subscribe to the idea that an open source project is a
> > one man-one vote democracy of any sort anyway. For example, in the
> > FreeMarker project, the opinion of somebody who has made some tiny
> > contribution to the code (and is thus a "committer") cannot be
> > considered equal to mine, when simply most of the current core code base
> > was written by me. And thus, the idea that this person's vote is equal
> > to mine strikes me as absurd. It would be equally absurd if I joined
> > another project, and after making a nominal contribution, considered
> > that my vote was equal to that of someone who had written, say, 80% of
> > the code.
>
> You might be interested in the bylaws I wrote for Java Web Parts:
>
> http://sourceforge.net/docman/?group_id=140728
>
> Most importantly in the context of this discussion is the fact that
> ANYONE who contributes AT ALL can vote and HAVE THEIR VOTE COUNT.
> Non-contributors can vote too, but are non-binding (I am considering
> changing this).
>
> I have a weighting system for how peoples' votes count... "contributors"
> count as 1, "developers" (aka committers) count as 1.5 and
> "administrators" (aka the PMC) count as 2. The only requirement is that
> a person be subscribed to the mailing list, since all voting takes place
> there. There is a formula used to calculate the final result of a vote,
> and simple majority carries the vote.
>
> By the way, the definition of "contributor" is "anyone that contributes
> to JWP". I probably should refine that definition a bit :) But, the
> point is that I wanted it to be a very low barrier of entry, so even if
> you just point out a batch of spelling errors in the documentation, you
> would be considered a contributor and get a counted vote.
>
> I bet some of the people on the contributors list don't even know they
> have a vote! :) In truth though, we have yet to have an actual vote on
> anything, so I suppose it's all untested.
>
> The voting system is perhaps a bit convoluted, but I tried to write it
> in such a way that no one person, INCLUDING ME, could grab control of
> the project. There is also veto power on all votes, and more
> importantly, an override provision... for instance, while I as an
> Administrator can veto any vote, either of the other two developers can
> call for an override vote. I of course cannot vote in the override
> vote, and if my veto is overridden, that's the final word, I cannot
> override the veto.
>
> I have no doubt there are flaws in my system, but my goal was to give
> everyone a voice, and to ensure that the will of the majority would be
> done no matter what.
>
> Frank
>
> --
> Frank W. Zammetti
> Founder and Chief Software Architect
> Omnytex Technologies
> http://www.omnytex.com
> AIM: fzammetti
> Yahoo: fzammetti
> MSN: fzammetti@hotmail.com
> Java Web Parts -
> http://javawebparts.sourceforge.net
> Supplying the wheel, so you don't have to reinvent it!
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
>
>
--
Alexandre Poitras
Québec, Canada
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Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Dakota Jack <da...@gmail.com>.
That would not be an anomaly, Dave. If you think that my statement should
have been taken as less than sardonic or even sarcastic, then you might be
wrong.
<snip>
On 3/21/06, Dave Newton <ne...@pingsite.com> wrote:
>
> Dakota Jack wrote:
> > If you keep thinking like this, you too will be a committer soon enough.
> >
>
> That would be cool, although my current obligations leave me precious
> little time for recreational programming :(
>
> It was an anomaly that I saw this post as you got kill-filed after you
> threatened to sue me and contacted my boss following a pretty reasonable
> reply to a pretty ludicrous post. Don't talk to me like that episode
> didn't happen. 'Round _these_ parts, despite the valid points you make
> from time to time, you are persona non grata and on a very short list of
> people I genuinely dislike.
</snip>
--
"You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back."
~Dakota Jack~
If it walks like a troll and talks like a troll [was: has struts reached the saturation]
Posted by James Mitchell <jm...@apache.org>.
Quite an interesting thread so far. There are certainly a lot of
varying opinions.
I would like to send a _BIG_ "THANK YOU" to all of you who have
resisted the urge to respond to the useless troll drivel that
continues to plague our community.
http://wiki.apache.org/struts/DefineTroll
http://wiki.apache.org/struts/DefinePita
--
James Mitchell
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Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Hey Nony Moose <he...@liveonthe.net>.
hmm ... yes, isn't this struts-USER ... a place where users can discuss
usage and maybe get a diamond from a developer occassionally ... isn't
there a struts-DEVELOPER list for the assorted topics raised in this thread?
Asad Habib wrote:
> Hello everyone. This thread has gone on way too long and quite
> honestly most of us are just basic Struts users who are still learning
> the framework. Various points have been made and all have their
> merits. Is it worth it to butcher each other over petty differences or
> to use our time wisely to make positive contributions? Thanks for
> listening.
>
> - Asad
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Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Asad Habib <ah...@engin.umich.edu>.
Hello everyone. This thread has gone on way too long and quite honestly
most of us are just basic Struts users who are still learning the
framework. Various points have been made and all have their merits. Is it
worth it to butcher each other over petty differences or to use our time
wisely to make positive contributions? Thanks for listening.
- Asad
On Tue, 21 Mar 2006, Dakota Jack wrote:
> This has been a thread that has covered about 200 different emails from
> pillar to post, with the gurus and the outcasts all included. And you wish
> it would go away, you think it is a disservice. The present committers and
> their way of thinking or not thinking have in effect killed Struts and you
> think this is just "spinning"? If you keep thinking like this, you too will
> be a committer soon enough.
>
>
> <snip>
> On 3/21/06, Dave Newton <ne...@pingsite.com> wrote:
>
>> I _do_ believe that
>> this thread, in some ways, is doing a disservice to the Struts
>> "umbrella". It's been disheartening in many ways, and I wish it would go
>> away because for the most part we've been spinning over philosophical
>> issues (perhaps we need a Struts and/or Jakarta and/or Apache meta-group).
>
> </snip>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> "You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back."
> ~Dakota Jack~
>
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Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Dave Newton <ne...@pingsite.com>.
Frank W. Zammetti wrote:
> Your right, 99% of this has been philosophy debating. What's wrong
> with that? Philosophy is what open-source is based on, so why is it
> wrong to question the foundations every now and again?
Who said it was wrong?
I said _I_ wished the thread would go away because _I_ feel it has
ceased to be useful and _I_ feel it's doing more harm than good at this
point and _I_ feel that very little, if anything, positive will happen
as a result.
I am equally free to post that opinion. But now it's spun off on yet
_another_ useless thread about the death of democracy and freedom
because _I_ feel the thread has gone beyond the point of usefulness.
You want a democracy on a national level move somewhere where there's
proportional representation, direct elections, the amount of money one
has to spend cannot alter voter perception, etc. You want a democracy on
an open-source project level start your own. Oh, you did. Oh, wait, you
have weighted votes.
> [...] but I voted for Bush this past election. Seemed like the right
choice at the time.
I can't even imagine a thought process that arrives at this conclusion,
but that's yet another spin cycle.
> Is it disheartening to confront differing ideas and ways of thinking?
No, it's disheartening to spin in circles.
All done; you guys go ahead without me, I'll catch up with you on the
technical side.
Dave
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Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by "Frank W. Zammetti" <fz...@omnytex.com>.
Frank W. Zammetti wrote:
> Some will say it's not a good thing to do because of some peoples'
> perception of him, but I agree 100% with Dakota here!
Correction: I don't agree with him 100%... I don't believe Struts is
dead, I think Struts is alive and well at the moment. There may be some
things that can be done to keep it that way, some new ideas to consider,
but I don't agree with Jack's characterization of its current state.
Frank
--
Frank W. Zammetti
Founder and Chief Software Architect
Omnytex Technologies
http://www.omnytex.com
AIM: fzammetti
Yahoo: fzammetti
MSN: fzammetti@hotmail.com
Java Web Parts -
http://javawebparts.sourceforge.net
Supplying the wheel, so you don't have to reinvent it!
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Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by "Frank W. Zammetti" <fz...@omnytex.com>.
Some will say it's not a good thing to do because of some peoples'
perception of him, but I agree 100% with Dakota here!
Threads like this are, I believe, absolutely necessary every now and
again. The simple fact that everyone has gotten to voice their opinion,
regardless of who agrees or disagrees, has been exactly what growing a
community is all about.
Your right, 99% of this has been philosophy debating. What's wrong with
that? Philosophy is what open-source is based on, so why is it wrong to
question the foundations every now and again?
Hey, I'm a registered independent, but I voted for Bush this past
election. Seemed like the right choice at the time. Is it wrong for me
to now question what he says and does? Am I doing a disservice to the
government by voicing my concerns and asking tough questions? Is it
disheartening to confront differing ideas and ways of thinking?
I don't know about anyone else, but if you answered yes to any of those
questions, that silent noise you hear is the impending death of freedom
of expression and democracy as a whole. Just because we're talking
about open-source as opposed to political science doesn't mean the
principals of freedom are any different.
As long as everyone that posted here did so out of a desire to improve
things, and by and large I personally believe that is the case, then
this thread is relevant, appropriate and necessary. At least in my opinion.
Frank
Dakota Jack wrote:
> This has been a thread that has covered about 200 different emails from
> pillar to post, with the gurus and the outcasts all included. And you wish
> it would go away, you think it is a disservice. The present committers and
> their way of thinking or not thinking have in effect killed Struts and you
> think this is just "spinning"? If you keep thinking like this, you too will
> be a committer soon enough.
>
>
> <snip>
> On 3/21/06, Dave Newton <ne...@pingsite.com> wrote:
>
>> I _do_ believe that
>> this thread, in some ways, is doing a disservice to the Struts
>> "umbrella". It's been disheartening in many ways, and I wish it would go
>> away because for the most part we've been spinning over philosophical
>> issues (perhaps we need a Struts and/or Jakarta and/or Apache meta-group).
>
> </snip>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> "You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back."
> ~Dakota Jack~
>
--
Frank W. Zammetti
Founder and Chief Software Architect
Omnytex Technologies
http://www.omnytex.com
AIM: fzammetti
Yahoo: fzammetti
MSN: fzammetti@hotmail.com
Java Web Parts -
http://javawebparts.sourceforge.net
Supplying the wheel, so you don't have to reinvent it!
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Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Dave Newton <ne...@pingsite.com>.
Dakota Jack wrote:
> The present committers and their way of thinking or not thinking have in effect killed Struts
This obviously isn't true. I do agree that this thread is damaging in
many ways, and that the thread even happened is a sign of something
being wrong, misunderstood, or something else.
> and you think this is just "spinning"?
Yep.
For the most part this has been an exercise in mental masturbation. I
don't believe much will come of this thread. Perhaps I'm wrong; we shall
see. There are a few things that could stand some change. Mostly I see
the same people saying the same things over and over, although perhaps
providing additional clarity to those that care.
I'm not saying the thread _shouldn't_ happen, I'm just saying I don't
care much for it, even though I'm following it (somewhat haphazardly).
> If you keep thinking like this, you too will be a committer soon enough.
>
That would be cool, although my current obligations leave me precious
little time for recreational programming :(
It was an anomaly that I saw this post as you got kill-filed after you
threatened to sue me and contacted my boss following a pretty reasonable
reply to a pretty ludicrous post. Don't talk to me like that episode
didn't happen. 'Round _these_ parts, despite the valid points you make
from time to time, you are persona non grata and on a very short list of
people I genuinely dislike.
Dave
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Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Dakota Jack <da...@gmail.com>.
This has been a thread that has covered about 200 different emails from
pillar to post, with the gurus and the outcasts all included. And you wish
it would go away, you think it is a disservice. The present committers and
their way of thinking or not thinking have in effect killed Struts and you
think this is just "spinning"? If you keep thinking like this, you too will
be a committer soon enough.
<snip>
On 3/21/06, Dave Newton <ne...@pingsite.com> wrote:
> I _do_ believe that
> this thread, in some ways, is doing a disservice to the Struts
> "umbrella". It's been disheartening in many ways, and I wish it would go
> away because for the most part we've been spinning over philosophical
> issues (perhaps we need a Struts and/or Jakarta and/or Apache meta-group).
</snip>
--
"You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back."
~Dakota Jack~
Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Michael Jouravlev <jm...@gmail.com>.
Whoa, you guys are writers indeed ;)
On 3/21/06, Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es> wrote:
> Frank W. Zammetti wrote:
> > Jonathan Revusky wrote:
> > Can you point out where Struts has "utterly failed" to compete with
> > Webwork technically?
>
> I don't know either product so well in detail. My interest in Webwork
> and hence, Struts Action, is that FreeMarker is used very extensively there.
>
> But I don't think there's much onus on me to answer this question
> anyway. If the main Struts people want Webwork to be Struts Action 2.x,
> and for Struts 1.x users (at least the ones who want an action
> framework) to migrate to that, they are saying that WW is superior.
The next few paragraphs is my own speculation, it is not based on hard
facts, does not have any specific person(s) in mind, nor it means to
judge any person(s). It is just my own feeling which may be well off
base.
While core Struts people are noticeably moving to JSF/MyFaces/Shale,
the original Struts niche opens up for grabs. It could be left for the
"next best thing in action frameworks" like WebWork or Stripes or
Spring MVC or something else. But in the end the public perception
would have been that Struts ran out of steam and lost the battle.
Struts guys made a smart move bringing WebWork in as Struts 2.0. This
way the name (the brand name if you like, but according to Tess
"Struts" is not a registered trademark) is preserved and all that is
related to the name is preserved too, not just software but people
too.
Check out the difference: "I was a Struts committer once" - "Oh, that
Struts that was 'zee standard', but it sucked and nobody wants it
anymore" and: "I am a Struts committer" - "Oh, I've heard that version
2.0 is really cool".
This way old Struts people retain their respectable status, while
WebWork guys get the market. Very nice deal.
> Well, the responsible struts people threw in the towel, as far as a
> technical competition is concerned. They accepted that webwork was
> better. Now, if you think the boxer's manager threw in the towel
> prematurely, that could be an issue, but that he lost the fight is clear
> enough.
The boxer is leaving the building. The boxer's manager is putting a
fresh guy who is willing to pick up the fight. This corner will be
covered, don't you get worried.
> > The 1.3 branch
> > brings a lot of power, but it almost feels superfluous with the pending
> > WW merger (I have my suspicion that it hasn't gotten the attention it
> > should have ever since the merger decision was made, but that's just my
> > suspicion).
>
> Yes, but the WW merger came about specifically because Struts was
> falling further and further behind. At least this is what I infer. So
> maybe there is some confusion of cause and effect in all this.
Afaik, changes for 1.3 branch were considered long ago before WebWork
merger. They started to get implemented before merger, and some (a
lot?) of people use 1.3 codebase right now. 1.3.x has to go official
simply to ease managers' nervousness about using beta. I don't think
there ever will be 1.4. At this point I don't see reasons for doing
that.
Michael.
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Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es>.
Frank W. Zammetti wrote:
> Are you trying to say that driving ISN'T dangerous and that there AREN'T
> tons of "crazies" on the road?
Frank, there is a metaphor gap here anyway. We were discussing how
dangerous it is to let anybody who wants to commit code do so.
Now, you can restore the code repository to the exact same state it was
in the past before the person's commits.
In the case of driving, if you are seriously injured or killed in an
accident, your body cannot be instantly restored to the state it was in
before the accident.
Dave Newton came up with a mountaineering analogy that suffers from
basically the exact same "metaphor gap", where he was talking about the
context of a rock-climbing expedition for "earning trust", making an
implicit analogy with earning trust to be able to commit code. Can you
seriously compare the risk of someone falling off a cliff with that of a
temporary cock-up in the code repository?
In software development, the fact that you can just back out the changes
or restore the code from a previous snapshot in the worst cases,
basically means that the risk-reward equation is nothing like it is in
these other activities anyway.
If that wasn't enough hyperbole, a nuclear meltdown simile was offered
at some point too. There is such hyperbole in these comparisons that
and, on the face of it, they basically are ridiculous. I don't think
this is a consequence of bad faith. But I do attribute it to sloppy
reasoning.
Well, the other thing is cognitive dissonance. If you suddenly accept
(even just temporarily for the sake of argument, let's say) that what I
am saying is true, it means that all this Apache Way stuff and
everything they have written about meritocracy is basically fatuous
nonsense. And the implications of that, the cognitive dissonance, could
be disturbing.... :-)
Maybe I'm wrong about this, but it is an interesting hypothesis to
explore, is it not? The idea that the barriers to becomming a committer
serve absolutely no real purpose?
As for people saying this shouldn't be discussed, it is not the
ostensible topic of this list, but the discussion developed here. The
people now complaining about this thread, it's not clear what their
grievance is... If somebody is not interested, they don't have to read
it...
Jonathan Revusky
--
lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/
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Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by "Frank W. Zammetti" <fz...@omnytex.com>.
Are you trying to say that driving ISN'T dangerous and that there AREN'T
tons of "crazies" on the road? Are you saying that defensive driving,
as we were all taught growing up, isn't prudent? You must have never
driven in New York if you don't think so :)
There is a big difference between trying to work with people and
ignoring the dangers in the world. Trying to avoid the dangers is good.
In fact, I would submit that I am more like your mother: she obviously
saw the same dangers your father did, but she chose to avoid them by
working nicely with people rather than fighting them (I infer that your
father was a fairly aggressive driver?).
Frank
Dakota Jack wrote:
> When I was young, when my dad would drive, the whole world of cars would be
> crazy and dangerous. When my mom would drive, everything changed. When
> you let people merge rather than try to cut them off, amazing things
> happen. The world changes. In this thread, Frank is like my dad and
> Jonathan is like my mom. My dad's defensive moves were in fact the cause of
> the problem. I basically have to agree with Jonathan on this one.
>
> On 3/21/06, Frank W. Zammetti <fz...@omnytex.com> wrote:
>> Jonathan Revusky wrote:
>>> I guess you and I think quite differently about certain things. In
>>> another part of this discussion, you mentioned malice as a reason not to
>>> give people commit access on an "on-demand" basis. However, this is
>>> something that hardly occurs to me as being much of a reason. In the
>>> above, you mention the idea that your secret voting mechanism could be
>>> "cooked" or people could suspect it is. This also never really occurred
>>> to me. I guess I just have a certain basic trust in the ethics of other
>>> open source people, and it does not occur to me that someone would cook
>>> the voting or that anybody would think that I would cook the voting.
>> No question I tend to take a pessimistic view of things until I have
>> reason to believe otherwise. I dare say all you have to do is look
>> around the world and you will see more evidence to support that
>> perspective than the more positive perspective. Sad, but I think true.
>>
>> But you say "...certain basic trust in the ethics of other open source
>> people..."... do you mean that you would allow anonymous, full commit
>> privileges to anyone and everyone? In other words, a situation where
>> anyone who wants to, whether they have ever seen the project before or
>> not, can commit to the repository. This I absolutely think is a bad
>> idea. A very bad one at that.
>>
>>> But look, if somebody distrusts your ethics to that extent, why would
>>> they be in your community?
>> I guess it could be more me expecting people to be expecting the worst
>> of me :)
>>
>>> Well, you know, it could also be that a public vote is preferred because
>>> project leaders are (at least vaguely) aware that if the vote is public
>>> people are less likely to disagree with them. (Of course, that is not
>>> exactly a legitimate reason.)
>> That could be part of it, sure.
>>
>> But now, which one of us has the basic distrust issue here?? ;) LOL
>>
>>> Well, if it comes into play at all, it should be considered.
>> I would generally agree.
>>
>>> Well, maybe (just maybe, I'm not really *so* presumptuous) the next step
>>> of evolution of your thinking is to move more towards implicitly
>>> trusting people. I mean: trust people to be acting in good faith until
>>> proven otherwise. Trust people to be at least moderately competent until
>>> proven otherwise.
>> With the potential of major effort to clean up a corrupt source
>> repository, I don't think you can do that. Just my opinion.
>>
>>> In general, in this kind of collaborative internet model, don't you have
>>> to make a leap of faith and implicitly trust (until proven otherwise, of
>>> course) people you've never met?
>> To some degree, yes. But what that degree is, well, that's where we
>> don't completely agree :) I think there has to be *some* vetting that
>> takes place, no matter how minor.
>>
>> Look at it this way... let's say you have 20 people actively working on
>> a project, doing fantastic work. All of a sudden, you let the 21st
>> person in, and they proceed to commit some less than stellar work, or
>> maybe even break code because they don't yet have a good understanding
>> of the project. Is that fair to the 20 others? Even if it can all be
>> undone, is it fair for any of them to have to take the time to do so?
>>
>> I could quote Spock here, but I probably don't need to :)
>>
>>> You see, what is the alternative? If you don't trust people by default,
>>> then how is trust established?
>>>
>>> I mean, this seems to be related to the catch 22 problem that you become
>>> a committer by contributing a lot, but it's practically impossible to
>>> contribute without being a committer in the first place, Craig never
>>> responded to this basic question. (Somehow, I suspect he won't.)
>> But this is where the attitude of the committers (of any project, not
>> talking Struts specifically here) comes into play. They have to be
>> willing to accept contributions that don't come from themselves. If
>> that is the case, a person can build up that trust and build up that
>> reputation that leads to an invitation to join. One could even envision
>> a situation where a person submits 10 things, none of them is accepted,
>> and the person is still invited to join. That obviously would require
>> the existing committers have a very open-mindedness about them, but it
>> could happen. This serves your point of view and mine: there is a
>> vetting process that I like, and there is a basic trust by default for
>> you, maybe not quite to the degree you like, but I think its a
>> reasonable compromise position.
>>
>>> But the real problem here, that just about everybody seems to be
>>> skirting around is that, given the utter failure of the Struts community
>>> to compete with Webwork technically, there surely is a need for an
>>> open-minded exchange of ideas about these project management issues. And
>>> the people who lost the technical competition (the Struts people)
>>> should, by the basic logic and structure of competitition, adopt a
>>> fairly humble attitude about these topics.
>> Can you point out where Struts has "utterly failed" to compete with
>> Webwork technically? I've looked at Struts 1.3, and I've looked at WW,
>> and I don't see them as being light years apart frankly. I certainly
>> think there are pluses and minuses both ways, but the one thing that
>> struck me the most when I was reading about WW was how essentially
>> similar to Struts it was, and I didn't see anything that made me sit up
>> and go "oh wow, that's SO much better than Struts".
>>
>>> Well, it's like the alcoholic who has to admit that he has a problem,
>>> this community would have to admit that it has certain problems for any
>>> improvements to occur. But of course, since they won't admit it, no
>>> improvements will occur and.... well,... look, it's obviously a lost
>>> cause.... (I quickly came to that conclusion after reading some of
>>> Craig's (and Ted's) recent comments.)
>> Hehe, ironically, we've flipped positions :) I actually have a great
>> deal of hope for the Struts community. Firstly, I don't think it's in
>> quite as much disarray as others may. I think there is room for
>> improvement, but I don't think it's doomed or anything like that.
>>
>>> I actually am not somebody with strong opinions at the moment about web
>>> app development. I don't know so much about Spring and other frameworks
>>> and so on. However, just from what I observe lurking in this community,
>>> I would have one recommendation for anybody who asked my opinion on
>>> these matters. And that is: Whatever else you decide on, do not use
>>> Struts (I mean, don't use Struts Classic, don't use Struts Action, don't
>>> use Struts Shale) because the community is dysfunctional... major league
>>> FUBAR...
>> This I can't agree with. The 1.2.x branch of Struts is in pretty good
>> shape... one of the reasons there hasn't been a lot of evolution is that
>> it *is* stable and does the job for a lot of people. The 1.3 branch
>> brings a lot of power, but it almost feels superfluous with the pending
>> WW merger (I have my suspicion that it hasn't gotten the attention it
>> should have ever since the merger decision was made, but that's just my
>> suspicion). Shale, however you or I may feel about it, continues to
>> evolve and get better, and again, putting our feelings about it aside,
>> there is no doubt more and more people are finding it interesting.
>>
>>> I really don't know either. I say that this kind of thing is something
>>> not to be approached dogmatically. It's like the question of how much
>>> strictness and discipline to use in child-rearing. You need some but you
>>> can also overdo it.
>> Agreed. It's all a question of degrees.
>>
>>> I think a lot of what has to happen revolves around common sense, and
>>> common sense, like intuition and so on, is going to be quite hard to
>>> formalize into a set of rules. Personally, I don't take the idea of
>>> formalized voting that seriously. I think an open-source project is
>>> surely more like a dictatorship. But the dictator needs to listen to
>>> people. It just occurred to me that one basic difference between a
>>> dictatorship and this is that in a dictatorship like Sadam's Iraq or
>>> someplace, the Iraqis just had to keep living there. In an open-source
>>> project, everybody can just leave and you're left dictating to nobody
>>> but yourself.
>> I think a "benevolent" dictatorship in an open-source project is only
>> ever appropriate in the early stages of a project. In many cases, a
>> single individual has the original idea, has the original vision, and
>> they get the ball rolling. After that though, they should give up that
>> power and let the community drive. This is the path JWP took.
>>
>> The one argument against my own position is in direction-setting. One
>> of the things that has made Linux so successful is Linus still kind of
>> guiding things. Part of me really hates that he hasn't given up his
>> control (and, contrary to anything he might say, he *does* have more
>> power than anyone else), but another part of me thinks that Linux would
>> never have gotten as far as it has without him as the guiding force.
>>
>> If I have a choice though, I would rather a democracy fail than a
>> dictatorship succeed. There is something at a very low, fundamental
>> level that I just abhor about not giving people a voice, freedom and
>> choice.
>>
>>> I say that no formalized voting system will substitute a basic need to
>>> be able to listen to people in an open-minded way (that means,
>>> considering seriously the possibility that you are wrong) and being
>>> flexible and so on.
>> I agree.
>>
>>> This actually reminds me of the various attempts to set up democracy in
>>> backward, third world places. These countries do not have the basic
>>> institutions or culture of democracy. Having the formal vote does not
>>> make them into democracies.
>> I agree again. But what it DOES give them is a vote. There is no
>> trusting that the leaders will be open-minded. You have clearly stated
>> you don't feel the Struts committers are being open-minded, so in the
>> case of Struts, from your point of view, your own philosophy has failed.
>> If there was at least a formalized vote, the closed-mindedness you
>> perceive would have far less impact, and possibly even none.
>>
>>> Jonathan Revusky
>> Frank
>>
>> --
>> Frank W. Zammetti
>> Founder and Chief Software Architect
>> Omnytex Technologies
>> http://www.omnytex.com
>> AIM: fzammetti
>> Yahoo: fzammetti
>> MSN: fzammetti@hotmail.com
>> Java Web Parts -
>> http://javawebparts.sourceforge.net
>> Supplying the wheel, so you don't have to reinvent it!
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> "You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back."
> ~Dakota Jack~
>
--
Frank W. Zammetti
Founder and Chief Software Architect
Omnytex Technologies
http://www.omnytex.com
AIM: fzammetti
Yahoo: fzammetti
MSN: fzammetti@hotmail.com
Java Web Parts -
http://javawebparts.sourceforge.net
Supplying the wheel, so you don't have to reinvent it!
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Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Dakota Jack <da...@gmail.com>.
When I was young, when my dad would drive, the whole world of cars would be
crazy and dangerous. When my mom would drive, everything changed. When
you let people merge rather than try to cut them off, amazing things
happen. The world changes. In this thread, Frank is like my dad and
Jonathan is like my mom. My dad's defensive moves were in fact the cause of
the problem. I basically have to agree with Jonathan on this one.
On 3/21/06, Frank W. Zammetti <fz...@omnytex.com> wrote:
>
> Jonathan Revusky wrote:
> > I guess you and I think quite differently about certain things. In
> > another part of this discussion, you mentioned malice as a reason not to
> > give people commit access on an "on-demand" basis. However, this is
> > something that hardly occurs to me as being much of a reason. In the
> > above, you mention the idea that your secret voting mechanism could be
> > "cooked" or people could suspect it is. This also never really occurred
> > to me. I guess I just have a certain basic trust in the ethics of other
> > open source people, and it does not occur to me that someone would cook
> > the voting or that anybody would think that I would cook the voting.
>
> No question I tend to take a pessimistic view of things until I have
> reason to believe otherwise. I dare say all you have to do is look
> around the world and you will see more evidence to support that
> perspective than the more positive perspective. Sad, but I think true.
>
> But you say "...certain basic trust in the ethics of other open source
> people..."... do you mean that you would allow anonymous, full commit
> privileges to anyone and everyone? In other words, a situation where
> anyone who wants to, whether they have ever seen the project before or
> not, can commit to the repository. This I absolutely think is a bad
> idea. A very bad one at that.
>
> > But look, if somebody distrusts your ethics to that extent, why would
> > they be in your community?
>
> I guess it could be more me expecting people to be expecting the worst
> of me :)
>
> > Well, you know, it could also be that a public vote is preferred because
> > project leaders are (at least vaguely) aware that if the vote is public
> > people are less likely to disagree with them. (Of course, that is not
> > exactly a legitimate reason.)
>
> That could be part of it, sure.
>
> But now, which one of us has the basic distrust issue here?? ;) LOL
>
> > Well, if it comes into play at all, it should be considered.
>
> I would generally agree.
>
> > Well, maybe (just maybe, I'm not really *so* presumptuous) the next step
> > of evolution of your thinking is to move more towards implicitly
> > trusting people. I mean: trust people to be acting in good faith until
> > proven otherwise. Trust people to be at least moderately competent until
> > proven otherwise.
>
> With the potential of major effort to clean up a corrupt source
> repository, I don't think you can do that. Just my opinion.
>
> > In general, in this kind of collaborative internet model, don't you have
> > to make a leap of faith and implicitly trust (until proven otherwise, of
> > course) people you've never met?
>
> To some degree, yes. But what that degree is, well, that's where we
> don't completely agree :) I think there has to be *some* vetting that
> takes place, no matter how minor.
>
> Look at it this way... let's say you have 20 people actively working on
> a project, doing fantastic work. All of a sudden, you let the 21st
> person in, and they proceed to commit some less than stellar work, or
> maybe even break code because they don't yet have a good understanding
> of the project. Is that fair to the 20 others? Even if it can all be
> undone, is it fair for any of them to have to take the time to do so?
>
> I could quote Spock here, but I probably don't need to :)
>
> > You see, what is the alternative? If you don't trust people by default,
> > then how is trust established?
> >
> > I mean, this seems to be related to the catch 22 problem that you become
> > a committer by contributing a lot, but it's practically impossible to
> > contribute without being a committer in the first place, Craig never
> > responded to this basic question. (Somehow, I suspect he won't.)
>
> But this is where the attitude of the committers (of any project, not
> talking Struts specifically here) comes into play. They have to be
> willing to accept contributions that don't come from themselves. If
> that is the case, a person can build up that trust and build up that
> reputation that leads to an invitation to join. One could even envision
> a situation where a person submits 10 things, none of them is accepted,
> and the person is still invited to join. That obviously would require
> the existing committers have a very open-mindedness about them, but it
> could happen. This serves your point of view and mine: there is a
> vetting process that I like, and there is a basic trust by default for
> you, maybe not quite to the degree you like, but I think its a
> reasonable compromise position.
>
> > But the real problem here, that just about everybody seems to be
> > skirting around is that, given the utter failure of the Struts community
> > to compete with Webwork technically, there surely is a need for an
> > open-minded exchange of ideas about these project management issues. And
> > the people who lost the technical competition (the Struts people)
> > should, by the basic logic and structure of competitition, adopt a
> > fairly humble attitude about these topics.
>
> Can you point out where Struts has "utterly failed" to compete with
> Webwork technically? I've looked at Struts 1.3, and I've looked at WW,
> and I don't see them as being light years apart frankly. I certainly
> think there are pluses and minuses both ways, but the one thing that
> struck me the most when I was reading about WW was how essentially
> similar to Struts it was, and I didn't see anything that made me sit up
> and go "oh wow, that's SO much better than Struts".
>
> > Well, it's like the alcoholic who has to admit that he has a problem,
> > this community would have to admit that it has certain problems for any
> > improvements to occur. But of course, since they won't admit it, no
> > improvements will occur and.... well,... look, it's obviously a lost
> > cause.... (I quickly came to that conclusion after reading some of
> > Craig's (and Ted's) recent comments.)
>
> Hehe, ironically, we've flipped positions :) I actually have a great
> deal of hope for the Struts community. Firstly, I don't think it's in
> quite as much disarray as others may. I think there is room for
> improvement, but I don't think it's doomed or anything like that.
>
> > I actually am not somebody with strong opinions at the moment about web
> > app development. I don't know so much about Spring and other frameworks
> > and so on. However, just from what I observe lurking in this community,
> > I would have one recommendation for anybody who asked my opinion on
> > these matters. And that is: Whatever else you decide on, do not use
> > Struts (I mean, don't use Struts Classic, don't use Struts Action, don't
> > use Struts Shale) because the community is dysfunctional... major league
> > FUBAR...
>
> This I can't agree with. The 1.2.x branch of Struts is in pretty good
> shape... one of the reasons there hasn't been a lot of evolution is that
> it *is* stable and does the job for a lot of people. The 1.3 branch
> brings a lot of power, but it almost feels superfluous with the pending
> WW merger (I have my suspicion that it hasn't gotten the attention it
> should have ever since the merger decision was made, but that's just my
> suspicion). Shale, however you or I may feel about it, continues to
> evolve and get better, and again, putting our feelings about it aside,
> there is no doubt more and more people are finding it interesting.
>
> > I really don't know either. I say that this kind of thing is something
> > not to be approached dogmatically. It's like the question of how much
> > strictness and discipline to use in child-rearing. You need some but you
> > can also overdo it.
>
> Agreed. It's all a question of degrees.
>
> > I think a lot of what has to happen revolves around common sense, and
> > common sense, like intuition and so on, is going to be quite hard to
> > formalize into a set of rules. Personally, I don't take the idea of
> > formalized voting that seriously. I think an open-source project is
> > surely more like a dictatorship. But the dictator needs to listen to
> > people. It just occurred to me that one basic difference between a
> > dictatorship and this is that in a dictatorship like Sadam's Iraq or
> > someplace, the Iraqis just had to keep living there. In an open-source
> > project, everybody can just leave and you're left dictating to nobody
> > but yourself.
>
> I think a "benevolent" dictatorship in an open-source project is only
> ever appropriate in the early stages of a project. In many cases, a
> single individual has the original idea, has the original vision, and
> they get the ball rolling. After that though, they should give up that
> power and let the community drive. This is the path JWP took.
>
> The one argument against my own position is in direction-setting. One
> of the things that has made Linux so successful is Linus still kind of
> guiding things. Part of me really hates that he hasn't given up his
> control (and, contrary to anything he might say, he *does* have more
> power than anyone else), but another part of me thinks that Linux would
> never have gotten as far as it has without him as the guiding force.
>
> If I have a choice though, I would rather a democracy fail than a
> dictatorship succeed. There is something at a very low, fundamental
> level that I just abhor about not giving people a voice, freedom and
> choice.
>
> > I say that no formalized voting system will substitute a basic need to
> > be able to listen to people in an open-minded way (that means,
> > considering seriously the possibility that you are wrong) and being
> > flexible and so on.
>
> I agree.
>
> > This actually reminds me of the various attempts to set up democracy in
> > backward, third world places. These countries do not have the basic
> > institutions or culture of democracy. Having the formal vote does not
> > make them into democracies.
>
> I agree again. But what it DOES give them is a vote. There is no
> trusting that the leaders will be open-minded. You have clearly stated
> you don't feel the Struts committers are being open-minded, so in the
> case of Struts, from your point of view, your own philosophy has failed.
> If there was at least a formalized vote, the closed-mindedness you
> perceive would have far less impact, and possibly even none.
>
> > Jonathan Revusky
>
> Frank
>
> --
> Frank W. Zammetti
> Founder and Chief Software Architect
> Omnytex Technologies
> http://www.omnytex.com
> AIM: fzammetti
> Yahoo: fzammetti
> MSN: fzammetti@hotmail.com
> Java Web Parts -
> http://javawebparts.sourceforge.net
> Supplying the wheel, so you don't have to reinvent it!
>
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~Dakota Jack~
Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Dave Newton <ne...@pingsite.com>.
As much as I detest the thought of getting into it again with you after
all these years...
Jonathan Revusky wrote:
> You see, what is the alternative? If you don't trust people by
> default, then how is trust established?
Trust is earned over time.
Two simplistic examples: I mountain climb and train in several martial
arts.
The first time I go climbing with somebody I do not automatically assume
they have the prerequisite skills, attention to detail, etc. that I have
and that are necessary to keep both of us alive.
I double-check their knots, their belay stations, everything they do. I
become nervous if they do not do the same to me.
The first time I train a joint-locking art with someone I do not assume
they have the sensitivity necessary to know when to stop twisting,
pressing, sealing, etc. so I will tap early and often. I _do_ have the
sensitivity necessary and my partners will often comment that I began
releasing pressure just as they started the tap-out thought process...
but I do not expect them to trust me to stop just before things get
really painful. Plus if they do not tap I lose valuable feedback about
my own techniques.
The application to commit access would be similar. I would check their
code. I would run regression tests. Once I became confident that their
code quality is acceptable and they meant the project no "harm" then I
would grant commit access.
Is this optimal? Eh, I don't know, I suspect not as it would take a lot
of my time, but it certainly shows one way trust can be established in a
project context.
> I mean, this seems to be related to the catch 22 problem that you
> become a committer by contributing a lot, but it's practically
> impossible to contribute without being a committer in the first place,
> Craig never responded to this basic question. (Somehow, I suspect he
> won't.)
This is a perfectly valid point... similar to every other situation in
the real world: we won't hire you without experience. How do I get
experience without being hired? I won't climb with you until you're more
experienced. How do I get experience without climbing?
It's a real problem. I _firmly_ believe that granting access to anybody
that asks for it is a Very Bad Idea. One glance through the posts on
this list is _more_ than enough to show me that if some of the posters
asked for commit access they should _not_ get it. Yes, it's (relatively)
easy to back changes out, but even that (relatively) easy process takes
time that I'd rather spend doing other things.
> Actually, you know, in the earlier message, where I used the terms
> "immature" and "unwise" in my response to Craig, an earlier draft
> contained much harsher adjectives. Of course, when somebody says stuff
> like: "Deal with it or go away" that person is hardly expressing a
> willingness to have an open-minded exchange of ideas about something.
> Frankly, I don't think that kind of tone or attitude should be
> considered acceptable.
Then don't accept it and go away?
I just don't think the Apache project is going to change how things work
(at least not drastically, at least not now). They don't have to care
what we think. I really don't see what the problem with that is... Yeah,
it might be wonderful if they did everything I wanted them to, let me
have commit access to the particular projects I'm interested in, etc.
But... they don't and won't, and I move on.
> But the real problem here, that just about everybody seems to be
> skirting around is that, given the utter failure of the Struts
> community to compete with Webwork technically, there surely is a need
> for an open-minded exchange of ideas about these project management
> issues. And the people who lost the technical competition (the Struts
> people) should, by the basic logic and structure of competitition,
> adopt a fairly humble attitude about these topics.
>
"Should" implies a level of obligation that I am uncomfortable with.
It's one thing to _want_ somebody to take a different position, it's
quite another to imply that they are under some _obligation_ to do so.
Quite frankly, if I was in the shoes of an Apache committer I'm not sure
I'd change anything either, although I would have to give this
meta-discussion more thought to be sure.
> I actually am not somebody with strong opinions at the moment about
> web app development. I don't know so much about Spring and other
> frameworks and so on. However, just from what I observe lurking in
> this community, I would have one recommendation for anybody who asked
> my opinion on these matters. And that is: Whatever else you decide on,
> do not use Struts (I mean, don't use Struts Classic, don't use Struts
> Action, don't use Struts Shale) because the community is
> dysfunctional... major league FUBAR...
I agree that the community may be _one_ factor in deciding a technology,
but I hardly feel it should be the _only_ factor. I _do_ believe that
this thread, in some ways, is doing a disservice to the Struts
"umbrella". It's been disheartening in many ways, and I wish it would go
away because for the most part we've been spinning over philosophical
issues (perhaps we need a Struts and/or Jakarta and/or Apache meta-group).
I don't believe that a non-Action-based Struts _is_ Struts (and have
felt that the mailing lists should be separated as well) but it's a) not
a decision for me to make or b) not something I feel I have a "right" to
vote on etc.
Would I _like_ a vote? Yes, actually, I would. I don't think they're
related enough to group together, regardless of who the major proponents
are.
> In an open-source project, everybody can just leave and you're left
> dictating to nobody but yourself.
The fact that there are people still here says to me that for the most
part people are happy (or complacent, or mesmerized, etc. :) enough with
the dictatorship level that Struts has.
It's certainly arguable if this is a _good_ thing, but it's really not
all that interesting of an argument to me, and I do agree that it makes
the Struts community look bad.
Dave
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Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es>.
Frank W. Zammetti wrote:
> Jonathan Revusky wrote:
>
>> I guess you and I think quite differently about certain things. In
>> another part of this discussion, you mentioned malice as a reason not
>> to give people commit access on an "on-demand" basis. However, this is
>> something that hardly occurs to me as being much of a reason. In the
>> above, you mention the idea that your secret voting mechanism could be
>> "cooked" or people could suspect it is. This also never really
>> occurred to me. I guess I just have a certain basic trust in the
>> ethics of other open source people, and it does not occur to me that
>> someone would cook the voting or that anybody would think that I would
>> cook the voting.
>
>
> No question I tend to take a pessimistic view of things until I have
> reason to believe otherwise. I dare say all you have to do is look
> around the world and you will see more evidence to support that
> perspective than the more positive perspective. Sad, but I think true.
>
> But you say "...certain basic trust in the ethics of other open source
> people..."... do you mean that you would allow anonymous, full commit
> privileges to anyone and everyone?
It is very unlikely that I would ever let anybody muck with the
repository anonymously. For starters, while I think malice is quite rare
in this case, the chances become much higher when you're talking about
people who aren't taking the basic minimal responsibility of saying who
they are.
As a practical matter, the issue only will come up with people who have
been on your mailing list and have some ideas and the subject of them
becoming more involved comes up. In most (maybe all) cases I actually
have been the one to bring it up.
Basically, I'm arguing that being extremely liberal about giving people
who shown some interest commit access is not nearly as dangerous as you
are portraying it to be. I think the dangers of this kind of elitist
closed club attitude that you see here are greater.
> In other words, a situation where
> anyone who wants to, whether they have ever seen the project before or
> not, can commit to the repository. This I absolutely think is a bad
> idea. A very bad one at that.
Frank, isn't this a bit of a red herring? Who on earth who has not seen
the project before *wants* to commit code? It really seems to me that
you keep bringing up cases that have no relation to anything I recognize
from my own experience as resembling reality.
Again, the basic question we are discussing is subject to empirical
verification. To keep talking, from first principles, about whether
something is a good idea or not, when it can be tested empirically, is
ultimately sterile. (I originally wrote "masturbatory" here, but find
that too inflammatory...) It's like a bunch of ivory tower intellectuals
having a theoretical debate about whether it's raining outside or not.
Some illiterate janitor or somebody happens into the room, opens the
window, sticks out his hand and says. "Fellas, it's raining out there."
Now, when I say this is empirically resolvable, I don't mean it's all
that easy to run a well controlled experiment since each case will be
different. However, here is the basic idea. You have one project that
takes the elitist "committers as high priesthood" approach and another
comparable project that has practically no barriers to entry (you do
have to say what your name is but that should not be a big barrier.) You
also have to be interested, but that's possibly a red herring because
somebody who is not interested simply does nothing and never asks for
commit access.
The basic question is which project are you going to bet on in terms of
it continuing to evolve and innovate? I don't know for absolutely sure,
but in the experiment outlined above, given my thinking right now, I
would bet my money on the project with low barriers to entry.
While you can't run a perfectly controlled experiment, once you
accumulate enough data points on this, you can start to, at least
tentatively, draw some real conclusions.
>
>> But look, if somebody distrusts your ethics to that extent, why would
>> they be in your community?
>
>
> I guess it could be more me expecting people to be expecting the worst
> of me :)
>
>> Well, you know, it could also be that a public vote is preferred
>> because project leaders are (at least vaguely) aware that if the vote
>> is public people are less likely to disagree with them. (Of course,
>> that is not exactly a legitimate reason.)
>
>
> That could be part of it, sure.
>
> But now, which one of us has the basic distrust issue here?? ;) LOL
Well, it's not comparable. That the project leaders would prefer to
structure the voting in such a way that they tend to get their way is
not the same as actually cooking the vote count or something. In any
case, in my world view, it's normal that the people who did the lion's
share of the work basically make the decisions, so I don't even see much
problem with that. But my own suspicion is that most of the formalized
voting stuff is an empty farce anyway.
>> Well, if it comes into play at all, it should be considered.
>
>
> I would generally agree.
>
>> Well, maybe (just maybe, I'm not really *so* presumptuous) the next
>> step of evolution of your thinking is to move more towards implicitly
>> trusting people. I mean: trust people to be acting in good faith until
>> proven otherwise. Trust people to be at least moderately competent
>> until proven otherwise.
>
>
> With the potential of major effort to clean up a corrupt source
> repository, I don't think you can do that.
I revert to my statement that a version repository makes it quite easy
to restore the code to any point it was at in the past.
In any case, consider some potential bad consequence of letting just
about anybody commit:
1. On occasion, people start committing all kinds of bad code and it's a
lot of work for you to start sorting it out. (This very rarely happens
because new people are typically very timid in their initial commits,
and don't do drastic things, their cokmmits are small and localized and
could be rolled back easily.)
2. Once in a very long while, let's say 10 or 20 years, somebody with
sociopathic tendencies comes along and... I dunno... starts introducing
bugs deliberately. (But c'mon, this just about never happens.)
Now, let's consider the consequences of making it very hard, nigh
impossible, for new people to get involved.
A talented, energetic person who has a fire in his belly to do some
stuff is given the runaround. You drive that person away. You lose all
the contributions he would have made. Moreover, that energy gets
invested in the competing project (in our conceptual experiment above)
with low barriers to entry.
Which is going to be the bigger negative for a project, the above point,
or points 1 and 2 above?
>
> Just my opinion.
Sure, and you have the right to your opinion.
But, when a question is subject to empirical validation, once there
starts to be overwhelming evidence that your opinion was wrong, you have
to be flexible, don't you?
>
>> In general, in this kind of collaborative internet model, don't you
>> have to make a leap of faith and implicitly trust (until proven
>> otherwise, of course) people you've never met?
>
>
> To some degree, yes. But what that degree is, well, that's where we
> don't completely agree :) I think there has to be *some* vetting that
> takes place, no matter how minor.
Well, I agree with you (and Craig) that the person should have a real name.
So maybe somebody whose mommy and daddy neglected to give him a name
gets unfairly filtered out... ;-)
Aside from that, if somebody says he wants to work, I say, go to it,
show us what you can do.
>
> Look at it this way... let's say you have 20 people actively working on
> a project, doing fantastic work. All of a sudden, you let the 21st
> person in, and they proceed to commit some less than stellar work, or
> maybe even break code because they don't yet have a good understanding
> of the project. Is that fair to the 20 others?
How on earth is it unfair? They knew what they were getting into, an
online collaborative project. Was there ever a guarantee offered that
nobody would step on your toes a bit at some point?
If I am working on a project, and the other guys are obstructionist and
I lose the possibility of collaborating with a talented volunteer who is
given the runaround, I lose the benefit of that enriching experience,
right? Possibly because the other guys are insecurely guarding their
turf and so on. Is that fair to me?
In which case is the loss greater? I say the latter one, because the
first thing is more like a minor inconvenience.
> Even if it can all be
> undone, is it fair for any of them to have to take the time to do so?
It could be a PITA, but there is nothing inherently unfair about it.
What's unfair about it?
>
> I could quote Spock here, but I probably don't need to :)
That would be the "appeal to higher authority" fallacy....
>
>> You see, what is the alternative? If you don't trust people by
>> default, then how is trust established?
>
> >
>
>> I mean, this seems to be related to the catch 22 problem that you
>> become a committer by contributing a lot, but it's practically
>> impossible to contribute without being a committer in the first place,
>> Craig never responded to this basic question. (Somehow, I suspect he
>> won't.)
>
>
> But this is where the attitude of the committers (of any project, not
> talking Struts specifically here) comes into play. They have to be
> willing to accept contributions that don't come from themselves. If
> that is the case, a person can build up that trust and build up that
> reputation that leads to an invitation to join. One could even envision
> a situation where a person submits 10 things, none of them is accepted,
> and the person is still invited to join. That obviously would require
> the existing committers have a very open-mindedness about them, but it
> could happen. This serves your point of view and mine: there is a
> vetting process that I like, and there is a basic trust by default for
> you, maybe not quite to the degree you like, but I think its a
> reasonable compromise position.
Well, that could be good. It all comes down to empirical questions. If
an approach works, it works. Black cat, white cat... both catch mice....
Once your approach clearly didn't work in a case, though, there has to
be an honest taking of stock. That is what I see as quite absent in the
Struts community.
>
>> But the real problem here, that just about everybody seems to be
>> skirting around is that, given the utter failure of the Struts
>> community to compete with Webwork technically, there surely is a need
>> for an open-minded exchange of ideas about these project management
>> issues. And the people who lost the technical competition (the Struts
>> people) should, by the basic logic and structure of competitition,
>> adopt a fairly humble attitude about these topics.
>
>
> Can you point out where Struts has "utterly failed" to compete with
> Webwork technically?
I don't know either product so well in detail. My interest in Webwork
and hence, Struts Action, is that FreeMarker is used very extensively there.
But I don't think there's much onus on me to answer this question
anyway. If the main Struts people want Webwork to be Struts Action 2.x,
and for Struts 1.x users (at least the ones who want an action
framework) to migrate to that, they are saying that WW is superior.
It would be silly of me to question that, especially when the Struts
people would, under normal circumstances, be the last ones to admit that
WW is better.
> I've looked at Struts 1.3, and I've looked at WW,
> and I don't see them as being light years apart frankly. I certainly
> think there are pluses and minuses both ways, but the one thing that
> struck me the most when I was reading about WW was how essentially
> similar to Struts it was, and I didn't see anything that made me sit up
> and go "oh wow, that's SO much better than Struts".
Well, the responsible struts people threw in the towel, as far as a
technical competition is concerned. They accepted that webwork was
better. Now, if you think the boxer's manager threw in the towel
prematurely, that could be an issue, but that he lost the fight is clear
enough.
Look, try this. Work up a list of all the evolution, improvements and
innovations that have happened in Webwork over the last 3 years. And
work up a corresponding list of the evolution that happened in Struts
over the same time period.
Now, on that basis, let's examine which community had a more effective
development process. My bet is that you'll have to conclude that the
Webwork community was more innovative and more effective.
Note also that this is quite damning, since the two things were not
competing on an even playing field. Struts should have had a huge
advantage in terms of attracting technically able collaborators. Yet
still, they were not able to compete.
>
>> Well, it's like the alcoholic who has to admit that he has a problem,
>> this community would have to admit that it has certain problems for
>> any improvements to occur. But of course, since they won't admit it,
>> no improvements will occur and.... well,... look, it's obviously a
>> lost cause.... (I quickly came to that conclusion after reading some
>> of Craig's (and Ted's) recent comments.)
>
>
> Hehe, ironically, we've flipped positions :) I actually have a great
> deal of hope for the Struts community. Firstly, I don't think it's in
> quite as much disarray as others may. I think there is room for
> improvement, but I don't think it's doomed or anything like that.
Well, this is empirically resolvable. We simply wait and see. :-)
>
>> I actually am not somebody with strong opinions at the moment about
>> web app development. I don't know so much about Spring and other
>> frameworks and so on. However, just from what I observe lurking in
>> this community, I would have one recommendation for anybody who asked
>> my opinion on these matters. And that is: Whatever else you decide on,
>> do not use Struts (I mean, don't use Struts Classic, don't use Struts
>> Action, don't use Struts Shale) because the community is
>> dysfunctional... major league FUBAR...
>
>
> This I can't agree with.
Well, you have an existing investment.
Here is something I am wondering about. If you had no existing
investment in Struts, and you were in the market for a framework, would
you try to get involved with this community or would you look elsewhere
-- Spring, or whatever other alternatives....?
And I mean, looking at the project with fresh eyes, trying to sort out
your initial confusion about Struts/Action/Shale, and all that, and so
on. Would you get involved here or opt for something else?
It's not a rhetorical question. I ask because I don't know.
> The 1.2.x branch of Struts is in pretty good
> shape... one of the reasons there hasn't been a lot of evolution is that
> it *is* stable and does the job for a lot of people.
Well, that people use 1.2.x and it basically works does not really have
that much to do with whether the project's development process is
healthy at this point in time.
When I referred to this as a FUBAR, I was thinking more of the
sociological aspects of all this. Craig was right to say that this is a
lot about people as opposed to code, and it is particularly for these
reasons that I would not consider getting involved in this project and
community.
> The 1.3 branch
> brings a lot of power, but it almost feels superfluous with the pending
> WW merger (I have my suspicion that it hasn't gotten the attention it
> should have ever since the merger decision was made, but that's just my
> suspicion).
Yes, but the WW merger came about specifically because Struts was
falling further and further behind. At least this is what I infer. So
maybe there is some confusion of cause and effect in all this.
> Shale, however you or I may feel about it, continues to
> evolve and get better, and again, putting our feelings about it aside,
> there is no doubt more and more people are finding it interesting.
Projects on ASF will always generate a lot more interest than what they
deserve on pure technical merit.
Suppose you put Shale on sf.net without any ASF projection. How
interesting would people find it?
<snip>
> If I have a choice though, I would rather a democracy fail than a
> dictatorship succeed. There is something at a very low, fundamental
> level that I just abhor about not giving people a voice, freedom and
> choice.
Well, Democracy is a basic value in the running of a nation and society
overall, I suppose. But whether it's a basic value in terms of the
running of an open source project, I don't know. I think that the
various approaches to running an open-source project have to be judged
on results.
Even in the case of countries, I don't know how far you can take the
idea that you prefer a failed democracy to a functioning dictatorship.
If it comes between a democracy in which people are starving and there
is anarchy vs. a dictatorship where people have food on the table and
there is law and order, I think that morally and ethically, one has to
opt for the dictatorship -- if those really are the basic parameters.
Political freedom is meaningless if you have no food to eat. And how
"free" are you if you cannot walk down the street in safety anyway?
Jonathan Revusky
--
lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/
FreeMarker group blog, http://freemarker.blogspot.com/
>
>> I say that no formalized voting system will substitute a basic need to
>> be able to listen to people in an open-minded way (that means,
>> considering seriously the possibility that you are wrong) and being
>> flexible and so on.
>
>
> I agree.
>
>> This actually reminds me of the various attempts to set up democracy
>> in backward, third world places. These countries do not have the basic
>> institutions or culture of democracy. Having the formal vote does not
>> make them into democracies.
>
>
> I agree again. But what it DOES give them is a vote. There is no
> trusting that the leaders will be open-minded. You have clearly stated
> you don't feel the Struts committers are being open-minded, so in the
> case of Struts, from your point of view, your own philosophy has failed.
> If there was at least a formalized vote, the closed-mindedness you
> perceive would have far less impact, and possibly even none.
>
>> Jonathan Revusky
>
>
> Frank
>
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Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by "Frank W. Zammetti" <fz...@omnytex.com>.
Jonathan Revusky wrote:
> I guess you and I think quite differently about certain things. In
> another part of this discussion, you mentioned malice as a reason not to
> give people commit access on an "on-demand" basis. However, this is
> something that hardly occurs to me as being much of a reason. In the
> above, you mention the idea that your secret voting mechanism could be
> "cooked" or people could suspect it is. This also never really occurred
> to me. I guess I just have a certain basic trust in the ethics of other
> open source people, and it does not occur to me that someone would cook
> the voting or that anybody would think that I would cook the voting.
No question I tend to take a pessimistic view of things until I have
reason to believe otherwise. I dare say all you have to do is look
around the world and you will see more evidence to support that
perspective than the more positive perspective. Sad, but I think true.
But you say "...certain basic trust in the ethics of other open source
people..."... do you mean that you would allow anonymous, full commit
privileges to anyone and everyone? In other words, a situation where
anyone who wants to, whether they have ever seen the project before or
not, can commit to the repository. This I absolutely think is a bad
idea. A very bad one at that.
> But look, if somebody distrusts your ethics to that extent, why would
> they be in your community?
I guess it could be more me expecting people to be expecting the worst
of me :)
> Well, you know, it could also be that a public vote is preferred because
> project leaders are (at least vaguely) aware that if the vote is public
> people are less likely to disagree with them. (Of course, that is not
> exactly a legitimate reason.)
That could be part of it, sure.
But now, which one of us has the basic distrust issue here?? ;) LOL
> Well, if it comes into play at all, it should be considered.
I would generally agree.
> Well, maybe (just maybe, I'm not really *so* presumptuous) the next step
> of evolution of your thinking is to move more towards implicitly
> trusting people. I mean: trust people to be acting in good faith until
> proven otherwise. Trust people to be at least moderately competent until
> proven otherwise.
With the potential of major effort to clean up a corrupt source
repository, I don't think you can do that. Just my opinion.
> In general, in this kind of collaborative internet model, don't you have
> to make a leap of faith and implicitly trust (until proven otherwise, of
> course) people you've never met?
To some degree, yes. But what that degree is, well, that's where we
don't completely agree :) I think there has to be *some* vetting that
takes place, no matter how minor.
Look at it this way... let's say you have 20 people actively working on
a project, doing fantastic work. All of a sudden, you let the 21st
person in, and they proceed to commit some less than stellar work, or
maybe even break code because they don't yet have a good understanding
of the project. Is that fair to the 20 others? Even if it can all be
undone, is it fair for any of them to have to take the time to do so?
I could quote Spock here, but I probably don't need to :)
> You see, what is the alternative? If you don't trust people by default,
> then how is trust established?
>
> I mean, this seems to be related to the catch 22 problem that you become
> a committer by contributing a lot, but it's practically impossible to
> contribute without being a committer in the first place, Craig never
> responded to this basic question. (Somehow, I suspect he won't.)
But this is where the attitude of the committers (of any project, not
talking Struts specifically here) comes into play. They have to be
willing to accept contributions that don't come from themselves. If
that is the case, a person can build up that trust and build up that
reputation that leads to an invitation to join. One could even envision
a situation where a person submits 10 things, none of them is accepted,
and the person is still invited to join. That obviously would require
the existing committers have a very open-mindedness about them, but it
could happen. This serves your point of view and mine: there is a
vetting process that I like, and there is a basic trust by default for
you, maybe not quite to the degree you like, but I think its a
reasonable compromise position.
> But the real problem here, that just about everybody seems to be
> skirting around is that, given the utter failure of the Struts community
> to compete with Webwork technically, there surely is a need for an
> open-minded exchange of ideas about these project management issues. And
> the people who lost the technical competition (the Struts people)
> should, by the basic logic and structure of competitition, adopt a
> fairly humble attitude about these topics.
Can you point out where Struts has "utterly failed" to compete with
Webwork technically? I've looked at Struts 1.3, and I've looked at WW,
and I don't see them as being light years apart frankly. I certainly
think there are pluses and minuses both ways, but the one thing that
struck me the most when I was reading about WW was how essentially
similar to Struts it was, and I didn't see anything that made me sit up
and go "oh wow, that's SO much better than Struts".
> Well, it's like the alcoholic who has to admit that he has a problem,
> this community would have to admit that it has certain problems for any
> improvements to occur. But of course, since they won't admit it, no
> improvements will occur and.... well,... look, it's obviously a lost
> cause.... (I quickly came to that conclusion after reading some of
> Craig's (and Ted's) recent comments.)
Hehe, ironically, we've flipped positions :) I actually have a great
deal of hope for the Struts community. Firstly, I don't think it's in
quite as much disarray as others may. I think there is room for
improvement, but I don't think it's doomed or anything like that.
> I actually am not somebody with strong opinions at the moment about web
> app development. I don't know so much about Spring and other frameworks
> and so on. However, just from what I observe lurking in this community,
> I would have one recommendation for anybody who asked my opinion on
> these matters. And that is: Whatever else you decide on, do not use
> Struts (I mean, don't use Struts Classic, don't use Struts Action, don't
> use Struts Shale) because the community is dysfunctional... major league
> FUBAR...
This I can't agree with. The 1.2.x branch of Struts is in pretty good
shape... one of the reasons there hasn't been a lot of evolution is that
it *is* stable and does the job for a lot of people. The 1.3 branch
brings a lot of power, but it almost feels superfluous with the pending
WW merger (I have my suspicion that it hasn't gotten the attention it
should have ever since the merger decision was made, but that's just my
suspicion). Shale, however you or I may feel about it, continues to
evolve and get better, and again, putting our feelings about it aside,
there is no doubt more and more people are finding it interesting.
> I really don't know either. I say that this kind of thing is something
> not to be approached dogmatically. It's like the question of how much
> strictness and discipline to use in child-rearing. You need some but you
> can also overdo it.
Agreed. It's all a question of degrees.
> I think a lot of what has to happen revolves around common sense, and
> common sense, like intuition and so on, is going to be quite hard to
> formalize into a set of rules. Personally, I don't take the idea of
> formalized voting that seriously. I think an open-source project is
> surely more like a dictatorship. But the dictator needs to listen to
> people. It just occurred to me that one basic difference between a
> dictatorship and this is that in a dictatorship like Sadam's Iraq or
> someplace, the Iraqis just had to keep living there. In an open-source
> project, everybody can just leave and you're left dictating to nobody
> but yourself.
I think a "benevolent" dictatorship in an open-source project is only
ever appropriate in the early stages of a project. In many cases, a
single individual has the original idea, has the original vision, and
they get the ball rolling. After that though, they should give up that
power and let the community drive. This is the path JWP took.
The one argument against my own position is in direction-setting. One
of the things that has made Linux so successful is Linus still kind of
guiding things. Part of me really hates that he hasn't given up his
control (and, contrary to anything he might say, he *does* have more
power than anyone else), but another part of me thinks that Linux would
never have gotten as far as it has without him as the guiding force.
If I have a choice though, I would rather a democracy fail than a
dictatorship succeed. There is something at a very low, fundamental
level that I just abhor about not giving people a voice, freedom and choice.
> I say that no formalized voting system will substitute a basic need to
> be able to listen to people in an open-minded way (that means,
> considering seriously the possibility that you are wrong) and being
> flexible and so on.
I agree.
> This actually reminds me of the various attempts to set up democracy in
> backward, third world places. These countries do not have the basic
> institutions or culture of democracy. Having the formal vote does not
> make them into democracies.
I agree again. But what it DOES give them is a vote. There is no
trusting that the leaders will be open-minded. You have clearly stated
you don't feel the Struts committers are being open-minded, so in the
case of Struts, from your point of view, your own philosophy has failed.
If there was at least a formalized vote, the closed-mindedness you
perceive would have far less impact, and possibly even none.
> Jonathan Revusky
Frank
--
Frank W. Zammetti
Founder and Chief Software Architect
Omnytex Technologies
http://www.omnytex.com
AIM: fzammetti
Yahoo: fzammetti
MSN: fzammetti@hotmail.com
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Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es>.
Frank W. Zammetti wrote:
> Jonathan Revusky wrote:
>
>> Well, have you considered the positional issues I raised in the
>> earlier post? The order in which people vote is quite important.
>> Offhand, here is an idea:
>
>
> You know, I meant to address that and I completely forgot :) I think
> you do raise a valid issue. I'm not really sure how to solve it...
> simple anonymous vote seems the best answer, but how do you pull that
> off? If you have a webapp specially for people to vote, someone could
> always accuse you of "cooking" the code :)
I guess you and I think quite differently about certain things. In
another part of this discussion, you mentioned malice as a reason not to
give people commit access on an "on-demand" basis. However, this is
something that hardly occurs to me as being much of a reason. In the
above, you mention the idea that your secret voting mechanism could be
"cooked" or people could suspect it is. This also never really occurred
to me. I guess I just have a certain basic trust in the ethics of other
open source people, and it does not occur to me that someone would cook
the voting or that anybody would think that I would cook the voting.
But look, if somebody distrusts your ethics to that extent, why would
they be in your community?
> That is I think one of the
> reasons most projects go with a public vote on a list, and I tend to
agree.
Well, you know, it could also be that a public vote is preferred because
project leaders are (at least vaguely) aware that if the vote is public
people are less likely to disagree with them. (Of course, that is not
exactly a legitimate reason.)
>
>> Maybe you should have a vote that is non-binding among the simple
>> users. Effectively if most users are against something, then the idea
>> is not immediately rejected, but it is indicative of a need for more
>> debate. If most users are in favor, then you could move on to the
>> committers voting and so on.
>>
>> The problem is that once the people higher on your pecking order, your
>> PMC, vote +1, this will bias the votes of the lower status people.
>> (Also, the PMC are the people who are -- hopefully -- more involved
>> and are likely to put in their votes with less delay.) The results of
>> the voting is bound to be highly dependent on the order in which
>> voting takes place, don't you think?
>
>
> Yes, I do agree it is a concern. I'm not sure I would say it is
> *highly* dependent on order, but I *do* think it comes into play.
Well, if it comes into play at all, it should be considered.
>
> Well, I just proposed a few changes to the bylaws on the JWP mailing
> list, and I wish I hadn't forgotten about this point because I would
> have tried to address it too. I have to think about it a bit and try
> and find a decent solution, I'm not sure what it might be at the moment.
>
>> Your intent is good, but I am skeptical that all this formalized
>> voting is really the way open source projects should work. I'm not
>> saying I have all the alternatives figured either.
>
>
> You know, it's funny, but a few years ago I was quite the anti-open
> source guy :) I've definitely changed my thinking on some things over
> the years.
Well, maybe (just maybe, I'm not really *so* presumptuous) the next step
of evolution of your thinking is to move more towards implicitly
trusting people. I mean: trust people to be acting in good faith until
proven otherwise. Trust people to be at least moderately competent until
proven otherwise.
In general, in this kind of collaborative internet model, don't you have
to make a leap of faith and implicitly trust (until proven otherwise, of
course) people you've never met?
You see, what is the alternative? If you don't trust people by default,
then how is trust established?
I mean, this seems to be related to the catch 22 problem that you become
a committer by contributing a lot, but it's practically impossible to
contribute without being a committer in the first place, Craig never
responded to this basic question. (Somehow, I suspect he won't.)
AFAICS, what this kind of thing has led to is complete stagnation, where
Struts has become so uncompetitive that everybody just had to accept
that Webwork was better. What I also see, just as a lurker here, is that
there is a complete lack of willingness to really deal with the
implications of this. I mean, when you've had to accept that Struts
stagnated and Webwork progressed, how can you not be somewhat humble
when discussing these kinds of project management issues?
Actually, you know, in the earlier message, where I used the terms
"immature" and "unwise" in my response to Craig, an earlier draft
contained much harsher adjectives. Of course, when somebody says stuff
like: "Deal with it or go away" that person is hardly expressing a
willingness to have an open-minded exchange of ideas about something.
Frankly, I don't think that kind of tone or attitude should be
considered acceptable.
But the real problem here, that just about everybody seems to be
skirting around is that, given the utter failure of the Struts community
to compete with Webwork technically, there surely is a need for an
open-minded exchange of ideas about these project management issues. And
the people who lost the technical competition (the Struts people)
should, by the basic logic and structure of competitition, adopt a
fairly humble attitude about these topics.
Well, it's like the alcoholic who has to admit that he has a problem,
this community would have to admit that it has certain problems for any
improvements to occur. But of course, since they won't admit it, no
improvements will occur and.... well,... look, it's obviously a lost
cause.... (I quickly came to that conclusion after reading some of
Craig's (and Ted's) recent comments.)
I actually am not somebody with strong opinions at the moment about web
app development. I don't know so much about Spring and other frameworks
and so on. However, just from what I observe lurking in this community,
I would have one recommendation for anybody who asked my opinion on
these matters. And that is: Whatever else you decide on, do not use
Struts (I mean, don't use Struts Classic, don't use Struts Action, don't
use Struts Shale) because the community is dysfunctional... major league
FUBAR...
> One of the things I *haven't* changed my mind about though
> is the need for more formality. I don't believe that *some* rigidity
> and *some* project management methodologies is incompatible with the
> idea of community development. Obviously you can't take it too far, but
> I'm trying to figure out where the line is :)
I really don't know either. I say that this kind of thing is something
not to be approached dogmatically. It's like the question of how much
strictness and discipline to use in child-rearing. You need some but you
can also overdo it.
I think a lot of what has to happen revolves around common sense, and
common sense, like intuition and so on, is going to be quite hard to
formalize into a set of rules. Personally, I don't take the idea of
formalized voting that seriously. I think an open-source project is
surely more like a dictatorship. But the dictator needs to listen to
people. It just occurred to me that one basic difference between a
dictatorship and this is that in a dictatorship like Sadam's Iraq or
someplace, the Iraqis just had to keep living there. In an open-source
project, everybody can just leave and you're left dictating to nobody
but yourself.
>
> If nothing else, I prefer being up-front with people, and I don't want
> there to be any mystery in the process. The voting system may be
> somewhat unwieldly, and I in no way think it's perfect, but I would
> prefer that to having to figure out how to do a vote every time one
> comes up :)
I say that no formalized voting system will substitute a basic need to
be able to listen to people in an open-minded way (that means,
considering seriously the possibility that you are wrong) and being
flexible and so on.
This actually reminds me of the various attempts to set up democracy in
backward, third world places. These countries do not have the basic
institutions or culture of democracy. Having the formal vote does not
make them into democracies.
I mean, what I just see is that you have somebody with what is basically
a dictatorial mind-set (it's this way, we're the self-selected
meritocracy and if you don't like our decisions, go away) but
sanctimoniously pointing me to pages that explain all these voting
procedures, like there is a democracy or some variant on that. Really it
reminds me of third-world dictators saying: "Yeah, we have elections all
the time, check it out, the governing party won 98% of the vote and...."
Regards,
Jonathan Revusky
--
lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/
FreeMarker group blog, http://freemarker.blogspot.com/
>
>> Jonathan Revusky
>
>
> Frank
>
>
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Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by "Frank W. Zammetti" <fz...@omnytex.com>.
Jonathan Revusky wrote:
> Well, have you considered the positional issues I raised in the earlier
> post? The order in which people vote is quite important. Offhand, here
> is an idea:
You know, I meant to address that and I completely forgot :) I think
you do raise a valid issue. I'm not really sure how to solve it...
simple anonymous vote seems the best answer, but how do you pull that
off? If you have a webapp specially for people to vote, someone could
always accuse you of "cooking" the code :) That is I think one of the
reasons most projects go with a public vote on a list, and I tend to agree.
> Maybe you should have a vote that is non-binding among the simple users.
> Effectively if most users are against something, then the idea is not
> immediately rejected, but it is indicative of a need for more debate. If
> most users are in favor, then you could move on to the committers voting
> and so on.
>
> The problem is that once the people higher on your pecking order, your
> PMC, vote +1, this will bias the votes of the lower status people.
> (Also, the PMC are the people who are -- hopefully -- more involved and
> are likely to put in their votes with less delay.) The results of the
> voting is bound to be highly dependent on the order in which voting
> takes place, don't you think?
Yes, I do agree it is a concern. I'm not sure I would say it is
*highly* dependent on order, but I *do* think it comes into play.
Well, I just proposed a few changes to the bylaws on the JWP mailing
list, and I wish I hadn't forgotten about this point because I would
have tried to address it too. I have to think about it a bit and try
and find a decent solution, I'm not sure what it might be at the moment.
> Your intent is good, but I am skeptical that all this formalized voting
> is really the way open source projects should work. I'm not saying I
> have all the alternatives figured either.
You know, it's funny, but a few years ago I was quite the anti-open
source guy :) I've definitely changed my thinking on some things over
the years. One of the things I *haven't* changed my mind about though
is the need for more formality. I don't believe that *some* rigidity
and *some* project management methodologies is incompatible with the
idea of community development. Obviously you can't take it too far, but
I'm trying to figure out where the line is :)
If nothing else, I prefer being up-front with people, and I don't want
there to be any mystery in the process. The voting system may be
somewhat unwieldly, and I in no way think it's perfect, but I would
prefer that to having to figure out how to do a vote every time one
comes up :)
> Jonathan Revusky
Frank
--
Frank W. Zammetti
Founder and Chief Software Architect
Omnytex Technologies
http://www.omnytex.com
AIM: fzammetti
Yahoo: fzammetti
MSN: fzammetti@hotmail.com
Java Web Parts -
http://javawebparts.sourceforge.net
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Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es>.
Frank W. Zammetti wrote:
> Jonathan Revusky wrote:
>
>> A third point that I must make in this context is that, though, in the
>> above, I am criticizing the "electoral democracy" aspects of this, I
>> actually don't subscribe to the idea that an open source project is a
>> one man-one vote democracy of any sort anyway. For example, in the
>> FreeMarker project, the opinion of somebody who has made some tiny
>> contribution to the code (and is thus a "committer") cannot be
>> considered equal to mine, when simply most of the current core code
>> base was written by me. And thus, the idea that this person's vote is
>> equal to mine strikes me as absurd. It would be equally absurd if I
>> joined another project, and after making a nominal contribution,
>> considered that my vote was equal to that of someone who had written,
>> say, 80% of the code.
>
>
> You might be interested in the bylaws I wrote for Java Web Parts:
>
> http://sourceforge.net/docman/?group_id=140728
Frank, it's interesting to look at this and see what people have worked
up wrt project management issues and how to resolve disagreements and so
on.
But, as I said before, I don't believe that open source projects are one
man-one-vote democracies anyway. As a practical matter, the direction of
a project is mostly determined by who is willing to put in the most energy.
That the people who really do the heavy lifting call the shots is how it
must be AFAICS.
>
> Most importantly in the context of this discussion is the fact that
> ANYONE who contributes AT ALL can vote and HAVE THEIR VOTE COUNT.
> Non-contributors can vote too, but are non-binding (I am considering
> changing this).
>
> I have a weighting system for how peoples' votes count... "contributors"
> count as 1, "developers" (aka committers) count as 1.5 and
> "administrators" (aka the PMC) count as 2. The only requirement is that
> a person be subscribed to the mailing list, since all voting takes place
> there. There is a formula used to calculate the final result of a vote,
> and simple majority carries the vote.
Well, have you considered the positional issues I raised in the earlier
post? The order in which people vote is quite important. Offhand, here
is an idea:
Maybe you should have a vote that is non-binding among the simple users.
Effectively if most users are against something, then the idea is not
immediately rejected, but it is indicative of a need for more debate. If
most users are in favor, then you could move on to the committers voting
and so on.
The problem is that once the people higher on your pecking order, your
PMC, vote +1, this will bias the votes of the lower status people.
(Also, the PMC are the people who are -- hopefully -- more involved and
are likely to put in their votes with less delay.) The results of the
voting is bound to be highly dependent on the order in which voting
takes place, don't you think?
>
> By the way, the definition of "contributor" is "anyone that contributes
> to JWP". I probably should refine that definition a bit :) But, the
> point is that I wanted it to be a very low barrier of entry, so even if
> you just point out a batch of spelling errors in the documentation, you
> would be considered a contributor and get a counted vote.
>
> I bet some of the people on the contributors list don't even know they
> have a vote! :) In truth though, we have yet to have an actual vote on
> anything, so I suppose it's all untested.
>
> The voting system is perhaps a bit convoluted, but I tried to write it
> in such a way that no one person, INCLUDING ME, could grab control of
> the project. There is also veto power on all votes, and more
> importantly, an override provision... for instance, while I as an
> Administrator can veto any vote, either of the other two developers can
> call for an override vote. I of course cannot vote in the override
> vote, and if my veto is overridden, that's the final word, I cannot
> override the veto.
>
> I have no doubt there are flaws in my system, but my goal was to give
> everyone a voice, and to ensure that the will of the majority would be
> done no matter what.
Your intent is good, but I am skeptical that all this formalized voting
is really the way open source projects should work. I'm not saying I
have all the alternatives figured either.
Jonathan Revusky
--
lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/
>
> Frank
>
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Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by "Frank W. Zammetti" <fz...@omnytex.com>.
Jonathan Revusky wrote:
> A third point that I must make in this context is that, though, in the
> above, I am criticizing the "electoral democracy" aspects of this, I
> actually don't subscribe to the idea that an open source project is a
> one man-one vote democracy of any sort anyway. For example, in the
> FreeMarker project, the opinion of somebody who has made some tiny
> contribution to the code (and is thus a "committer") cannot be
> considered equal to mine, when simply most of the current core code base
> was written by me. And thus, the idea that this person's vote is equal
> to mine strikes me as absurd. It would be equally absurd if I joined
> another project, and after making a nominal contribution, considered
> that my vote was equal to that of someone who had written, say, 80% of
> the code.
You might be interested in the bylaws I wrote for Java Web Parts:
http://sourceforge.net/docman/?group_id=140728
Most importantly in the context of this discussion is the fact that
ANYONE who contributes AT ALL can vote and HAVE THEIR VOTE COUNT.
Non-contributors can vote too, but are non-binding (I am considering
changing this).
I have a weighting system for how peoples' votes count... "contributors"
count as 1, "developers" (aka committers) count as 1.5 and
"administrators" (aka the PMC) count as 2. The only requirement is that
a person be subscribed to the mailing list, since all voting takes place
there. There is a formula used to calculate the final result of a vote,
and simple majority carries the vote.
By the way, the definition of "contributor" is "anyone that contributes
to JWP". I probably should refine that definition a bit :) But, the
point is that I wanted it to be a very low barrier of entry, so even if
you just point out a batch of spelling errors in the documentation, you
would be considered a contributor and get a counted vote.
I bet some of the people on the contributors list don't even know they
have a vote! :) In truth though, we have yet to have an actual vote on
anything, so I suppose it's all untested.
The voting system is perhaps a bit convoluted, but I tried to write it
in such a way that no one person, INCLUDING ME, could grab control of
the project. There is also veto power on all votes, and more
importantly, an override provision... for instance, while I as an
Administrator can veto any vote, either of the other two developers can
call for an override vote. I of course cannot vote in the override
vote, and if my veto is overridden, that's the final word, I cannot
override the veto.
I have no doubt there are flaws in my system, but my goal was to give
everyone a voice, and to ensure that the will of the majority would be
done no matter what.
Frank
--
Frank W. Zammetti
Founder and Chief Software Architect
Omnytex Technologies
http://www.omnytex.com
AIM: fzammetti
Yahoo: fzammetti
MSN: fzammetti@hotmail.com
Java Web Parts -
http://javawebparts.sourceforge.net
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Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es>.
Craig McClanahan wrote:
> On 3/19/06, Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es> wrote:
>
>>
>>You say this as if it is the most obvious thing in the world. But is it?
>>I am quite skeptical. You take as a given that commit privileges have to
>>be closely guarded, like a high priesthood guards the inner sanctum.
>
>
>
> In the general case of *all* open source projects, you can make a case like
> this. Each project makes their own decisions about how committer status is
> "earned" or "granted" or whatever.
Yes, that is of course correct. But err.... I don't see your point here....
>
> Apache projects have their own individual personalities, but all of them
> conform to some core operating principles[1] that bind us together. Of
> particular interest to this thread is how you get to become a committer --
> they are nominated, and elected, by the other committers on that project.
> This has a few interesting implications:
>
> * People who contribute a lot, in a positive way, tend to get nominated
> and voted in.
Yes, but if you can only become a committer by having contributed a lot,
but the only sure way of being able to contribute is by becoming a
committer, doesn't this present a kind of catch 22?
(I know that you have to get the attention and interest of an existing
contributor, but if the existing contributors are being obstructionist
or just plain lazy, and you have no mechanism for addressing this...)
>
> * People who have radical ideas, but contribute in a positive way,
> can get nominated and voted in (depends on the individual community,
> but Struts committers are by no means monolithic in their beliefs :-).
>
> * People who simply make noise will never get nominated, and therefore
> never get voted in. (Even if nominated, Apache's rules state that
> a single -1 from a PMC member is a black ball -- in practice, that means
> nobody who is likely to get vetoed is going to get nominated, to save that
> person embarassment).
Well, I have heard this line before, I guess. I have certain
observations to make.
First of all, these voting procedures have certain inherent problems.
There is a positional problem. I don't know if you've ever studied game
theory, but in many games (poker is the prime example that people would
be familiar with) the order in which people act is quite important in
the game's strategy. For example, if there were the question of somebody
becoming a committer and you, say, were to vote +1 initially, other
people might be loath to vote -1 subsequently having seen that you were
in favor. Of course, if they were to vote before you and not know your
view, maybe they would have voted -1. And certainly, I think it's safe
to say that if everybody voted with a secret ballot mechanism, then
there are many conditions under which they would vote differently than
if the vote was public. Have any of these issues been discussed and
analyzed in a serious way?
Secondly, it is important in democracy that people can choose their
leaders by a vote. However, it seems to me that the more important
feature of a democracy is actually those people can be voted out at a
later point. The fact that voters can turf them out is a major
constraint on elected officials that a dictator, say, is not constrained
by. So what are the rules regarding somebody losing their committer
status? You say that they become committers by contributing (though
again, this is a toughie since it can be hard to contribute if you can't
commit) but if somebody does not contribute for a long period of time,
is there not a certain argument (by basic symmetry, I guess) that they
should lose committer status?
A third point that I must make in this context is that, though, in the
above, I am criticizing the "electoral democracy" aspects of this, I
actually don't subscribe to the idea that an open source project is a
one man-one vote democracy of any sort anyway. For example, in the
FreeMarker project, the opinion of somebody who has made some tiny
contribution to the code (and is thus a "committer") cannot be
considered equal to mine, when simply most of the current core code base
was written by me. And thus, the idea that this person's vote is equal
to mine strikes me as absurd. It would be equally absurd if I joined
another project, and after making a nominal contribution, considered
that my vote was equal to that of someone who had written, say, 80% of
the code.
So, the nuance is that I personally don't take the voting idea that
seriously anyway, since I don't think open-source *really* works this
way. However, if you are going to take all this voting procedural stuff
seriously (and from the pages you point me to, it seems you do) it
should be examined seriously and I have asked certain key questions
above, I think.
>
> At Apache, committers are a self-selected meritocracy.
Well, isn't this a vacuous statement? Isn't it the case that elitits
invariably define the elite in question as including themselves?
Frankly, it seems to me that what you are describing is more of a mutual
admiration club than a genuine meritocracy.
> If you cannot
> convince existing committers that you belong, then you don't belong. Deal
> with it. Or go away.
Well, this, I think is a key problem here -- the idea that somebody who
wants to contribute his time and energies is in some supplicant
position, begging to be let in. The would-be committer must curry favor
with the existing committers to be allowed the privilege (!) of donating
his time and energies for free.
Now, if the committers identify a talented individual, given that the
idea is for them to donate their time, wouldn't it actually make more
sense for them to be currying favor with that person, trying to get them
to contribute?
>
> Note that convincing can take a while, and sometimes involves creating an
> entirely revolutionary branch of the code someplace. But it almost always
> requires more code than words.
Hmm... look.... the tone of your response is quite arrogant. Other
people have surely noted that. I think the arrogance is misplaced and
you should adopt a more humble approach to this whole question. I shall
strive to explain why in a completely non-moralistic way.
Let me explain by analogy. There are different theories or dogmas about
how to raise children: "spare the rod and spoil the child" and blah
blah. But the fact is that nobody knows for sure what all the "best
practices" for bringing up a child is. There are probably various valid
approaches and ways of looking at things and it may also be that
different cultures handle issues differently in ways that work in their
cultural context.... And so on...
I mean, it's a very complex thing and there are a lot of imponderables.
I would argue that this is a topic that people should be flexible and
open-minded about and approach with a certain humility.
We have our opinions and our intuitions and so on, but we simply do not
know. Not for sure. People have raising children since time immemorial
but nobody knows for sure what the "best practices" are. And it may be
that there is no way that is correct in all cases, since each child is
different and each situation is different.
Meanwhile, people have been running open source projects for a very
limited period of time. Compared to child-raising there is a complete
lack of experience and genuine knowledge about what the right way of
doing it is. And it may be that based on the personalities and
interpersonal dynamics and so on, that approaches that would bear fruit
in one case would not bear fruit in another.
I believe that Socrates said that the first step to knowledge is to
recognize that you know nothing. When we talk about such issues like the
best way to raise a child or the best way to run an OSS project, we are
facing a certain void. We are at the outer limits of real, genuine human
knowledge, since we just don't really know for sure. This is why the
overall arrogant tone of your post on this is, IMHO, extremly misplaced.
I will go out further on a limb here and just say what the discerning
reader knows that I am thinking: your arrogance in this spot reflects
immaturity and a lack of wisdom. A more mature and wiser individual
would approach the topic of this conversation with much more humility.
>
> Craig
>
> PS: A perhaps subtle aspect of the rules is that nomination is about
> people. In my voting practice (and I suspect I am not alone in the Struts
> world), hiding behind one or more fake email identities is a guaranteed -1
Well, I would not advocate giving commit privileges to somebody who
refuses to disclose who they are. However, this is a red herring as
regards the topic of conversation. I guess this is just an off-topic
swipe at this Dakota Jack guy that has nothing to do with what was being
discussed here.
> ... because we vote on people, not on ideas. Fortunately, that's never been
> an issue ... no committer on any Apache project I've been a part of has ever
> nominated such an identity. But you can take it as a given that no such
> nomination will succeed here as long as I am a voting member of the Struts
> community.
This seems like a red herring to me. Was anybody proposing this?
>
> [1] Start at <http://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html> and follow
> the links on the right margin for details.
>
Thanks, I have seen that page before actually. It raises various
questions though, some of which I brought up above.
Regards,
Jonathan Revusky
--
lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/
FreeMarker group blog: http://freemarker.blogspot.com/
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Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Michael Jouravlev <jm...@gmail.com>.
On 3/20/06, Craig McClanahan <cr...@apache.org> wrote:
> In all three cases, the concept is to map the Portlet API "processAction()"
> method to the Restore View through Invoke Application phases of the JSF
> ifecycle, and to map the "render" method to the Render Response phase. The
> interesting part of programming portlets is that the render phase will get
> called for *all* JSF-based portlets on the page, while the action stuff is
> only called on the portlet to which the form submit was directed. In
> practice, that means you need to ensure that you have access to whatever
> state you need to rerender yourself at all times, even if you didn't receive
> the submit.
Yeah, route a request to a component for processing, then render the
whole page. Been there, trying to do better ;-)
JSR-168 API has benefits, it provides common grounds to inter-portlet
communication. Still, a single entry point makes JSR-168 Portal look
like an obese version of Struts. Well yes, it provides the additional
services too, but I would prefer to have services without having the
limitations.
Michael.
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Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Craig McClanahan <cr...@apache.org>.
On 3/15/06, Leon Rosenberg <rosenberg.leon@googlemail.com > wrote:
>
> Speaking of JSF,
> is there somewhere a Filter or n extension allowing you to use
> JSF/Shale/MyFaces without having a single url and send everything over
> POST?
> Until there is one, I don't see how you can use JSF in portals, but if
> there is one, I'd love to try it out :-)
There is not yet (filters are not supported in Portlet 1.0), but believe me
... the folks on the Portlet 2.0 expert group are hearing about this kind of
requirement. In the mean time (as usual when the standards lag) you'll see
individual products offer interim solutions to this problem. However, JSF
is still usable in portals today ... there are at least three technologies
available (which differ in details but are based on the same fundamental
ideas):
* MyFaces has an integration library (http://myfaces.apache.org)
* The Apache Portals project has a generic briding library that includes
support for JSF (as well as for Struts). ( http://portals.apache.org)
* Java Studio Creator apps can take advantage of the "jsf-portlet.jar"
library available with the JSF RI.
In all three cases, the concept is to map the Portlet API "processAction()"
method to the Restore View through Invoke Application phases of the JSF
ifecycle, and to map the "render" method to the Render Response phase. The
interesting part of programming portlets is that the render phase will get
called for *all* JSF-based portlets on the page, while the action stuff is
only called on the portlet to which the form submit was directed. In
practice, that means you need to ensure that you have access to whatever
state you need to rerender yourself at all times, even if you didn't receive
the submit. (Shale's prerender() and destroy() methods work particularly
nicely in this scenario, as they are called for you before and after the
rendering of each individual portlet).
regards
> Leon
Craig
Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Al Eridani <al...@gmail.com>.
On 3/20/06, Craig McClanahan <cr...@apache.org> wrote:
> > To be a meritocracy, more than the already elected committers would have
> > to participate in the election.
>
>
> I'll be fascinated to watch you try to sell that approach to Apache at large
> :-).
As I'm not a meritocracy evangelist, whether Apache agrees with me or not
is not that important. I only called attention to an assertion that
distorted the
plain meaning of words.
As societies become more intellectually sophisticated, this doublespeak
becomes more prevalent. You don't see anybody claiming that they
are running their community like a dictatorship; they all claim "democracy",
"meritocracy" and what not. But, as they say where I come from, "tell me of
what you brag about and I'll tell you what you lack".
> Out of the 22 existing committers to Struts, 21 of them followed the "deal
> with it" pattern and got voted in
But, of course! As it is the only way... According to you, the owners of
franchises in the NFL, or the NBA, also run their leagues as a meritocracy,
because they follow rules very similar to yours, eh?
> That's the way Apache projects work. If you don't like it, you're free to
> run your own project, anywhere else you like, according to whatever rules
> you see fit.
Wow, that's a relief! I thought you were going to forbid me to run my own
project, anywhere else I like, according to whatever rules I see fit.
>From the way you respond it seems to me that you believe I object to the
way your project is run. No, I object to the distortion of calling a meritocracy
what is just a run-of-the-mill club.
> See above for evidence that an alternative really does exist.
Not within your project structure, it doesn't. Which, by the way, is fine with
me. Just don't misrepresent it, please.
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Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Dakota Jack <da...@gmail.com>.
You missed the point, Craig. He was not trying to "sell" anything. He was
talking about the gapping holes in your logic about "meritocracy". You, as
usual, ignored any serious debate on your own Struts "meritocracy" claims
and jumped to the wholly irrelevant question whether Apache works. Please
try to focus. It is so hard to talk to you about things because you jump
around like this an fail to follow even your own "train" of thought.
Essentially you have argued that your own claims are irrelevant.
<snip>
On 3/20/06, Craig McClanahan <cr...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> On 3/20/06, Al Eridani <al...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > To be a meritocracy, more than the already elected committers would have
> > to participate in the election.
>
>
> I'll be fascinated to watch you try to sell that approach to Apache at
> large
> :-). I don't think you'll get very far, though ... there is a lot of
> evidence that this kind of culture is pretty good at building successful
> software, on a large varieties of what you might mean by
> "successful". And
> *all* of the various project communities here work this way.
</snip>
--
"You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back."
~Dakota Jack~
Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Craig McClanahan <cr...@apache.org>.
On 3/20/06, Al Eridani <al...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 3/20/06, Craig McClanahan <cr...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> > At Apache, committers are a self-selected meritocracy.
>
> That is a contradiction in terms (what is sometimes called an "oxymoron").
> I'll take your word that they are self-elected (honestly, I don't know).
> Therefore, meritocracy is not involved, self-interest is.
>
> To be a meritocracy, more than the already elected committers would have
> to participate in the election.
I'll be fascinated to watch you try to sell that approach to Apache at large
:-). I don't think you'll get very far, though ... there is a lot of
evidence that this kind of culture is pretty good at building successful
software, on a large varieties of what you might mean by "successful". And
*all* of the various project communities here work this way.
> If you cannot
> > convince existing committers that you belong, then you don't belong.
>
> Much better explanation, although I would replace "then you don't belong."
> with "then they make sure you are not allowed in." to be more thruthful.
Out of the 22 existing committers to Struts, 21 of them followed the "deal
with it" pattern and got voted in (I got grandfathered solely because I
started the thing). So did the thousands of people who have submitted bug
reports, submitted patches, answered questions on the mailing list, proposed
new code that got accepted, and sometimes got themselves nominated to be
committers.
That's the way Apache projects work. If you don't like it, you're free to
run your own project, anywhere else you like, according to whatever rules
you see fit. As for Apache in general (and the Struts project in
particular) we're quite comfortable with the rules as they are. On the
other hand, if you want to materially influence the direction of an Apache
project, this is the reality you need to base your actions in.
> Deal with it. Or go away.
>
> Almost a perfect exposition of your attitude. My only quibble is that the
> only
> way to "deal with it" is to "go away", so the "Or" implies a false
> dichotomy.
See above for evidence that an alternative really does exist.
Craig
Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Dakota Jack <da...@gmail.com>.
Yes, no one acquainted with the facts can possibly believe that the present
committers form a meritocracy. They also are not their based on code
proffers. This is not to say that merit has absolutely nothing to do with
it or that code has absolutely nothing to do with it. The best lies are
always built on some truth.
Al, you are a clear thinker. What a breath of fresh air.
On 3/20/06, Al Eridani <al...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 3/20/06, Craig McClanahan <cr...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> > At Apache, committers are a self-selected meritocracy.
>
> That is a contradiction in terms (what is sometimes called an "oxymoron").
> I'll take your word that they are self-elected (honestly, I don't know).
> Therefore, meritocracy is not involved, self-interest is.
>
> To be a meritocracy, more than the already elected committers would have
> to participate in the election.
>
> > If you cannot
> > convince existing committers that you belong, then you don't belong.
>
> Much better explanation, although I would replace "then you don't belong."
> with "then they make sure you are not allowed in." to be more thruthful.
>
> > Deal with it. Or go away.
>
> Almost a perfect exposition of your attitude. My only quibble is that the
> only
> way to "deal with it" is to "go away", so the "Or" implies a false
> dichotomy.
>
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>
--
"You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back."
~Dakota Jack~
Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Al Eridani <al...@gmail.com>.
On 3/20/06, Craig McClanahan <cr...@apache.org> wrote:
> At Apache, committers are a self-selected meritocracy.
That is a contradiction in terms (what is sometimes called an "oxymoron").
I'll take your word that they are self-elected (honestly, I don't know).
Therefore, meritocracy is not involved, self-interest is.
To be a meritocracy, more than the already elected committers would have
to participate in the election.
> If you cannot
> convince existing committers that you belong, then you don't belong.
Much better explanation, although I would replace "then you don't belong."
with "then they make sure you are not allowed in." to be more thruthful.
> Deal with it. Or go away.
Almost a perfect exposition of your attitude. My only quibble is that the only
way to "deal with it" is to "go away", so the "Or" implies a false dichotomy.
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Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Craig McClanahan <cr...@apache.org>.
On 3/19/06, Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es> wrote:
>
>
> You say this as if it is the most obvious thing in the world. But is it?
> I am quite skeptical. You take as a given that commit privileges have to
> be closely guarded, like a high priesthood guards the inner sanctum.
In the general case of *all* open source projects, you can make a case like
this. Each project makes their own decisions about how committer status is
"earned" or "granted" or whatever.
Apache projects have their own individual personalities, but all of them
conform to some core operating principles[1] that bind us together. Of
particular interest to this thread is how you get to become a committer --
they are nominated, and elected, by the other committers on that project.
This has a few interesting implications:
* People who contribute a lot, in a positive way, tend to get nominated
and voted in.
* People who have radical ideas, but contribute in a positive way,
can get nominated and voted in (depends on the individual community,
but Struts committers are by no means monolithic in their beliefs :-).
* People who simply make noise will never get nominated, and therefore
never get voted in. (Even if nominated, Apache's rules state that
a single -1 from a PMC member is a black ball -- in practice, that means
nobody who is likely to get vetoed is going to get nominated, to save that
person embarassment).
At Apache, committers are a self-selected meritocracy. If you cannot
convince existing committers that you belong, then you don't belong. Deal
with it. Or go away.
Note that convincing can take a while, and sometimes involves creating an
entirely revolutionary branch of the code someplace. But it almost always
requires more code than words.
Craig
PS: A perhaps subtle aspect of the rules is that nomination is about
people. In my voting practice (and I suspect I am not alone in the Struts
world), hiding behind one or more fake email identities is a guaranteed -1
... because we vote on people, not on ideas. Fortunately, that's never been
an issue ... no committer on any Apache project I've been a part of has ever
nominated such an identity. But you can take it as a given that no such
nomination will succeed here as long as I am a voting member of the Struts
community.
[1] Start at <http://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html> and follow
the links on the right margin for details.
Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Dave Newton <ne...@pingsite.com>.
Frank W. Zammetti wrote:
> Dave Newton wrote:
>> Devil's Dictionary entry for "communism"?
> Is that a real work? I'm not aware of it.
Ambrose Bierce. But I don't believe there is an entry for communism in
it; I made that part up.
> Interestingly, I think you would *still* have to guard commit
> privileges to some degree, again to guard against malicious intent.
> It isn't hard for me to envision some wise-a** little punk kid coming
> along and committing a bunch of garbage just to mess with those trying
> to learn. In this case, a simple sign-up mechanism might be
> sufficient, but I think the problem is still a valid concern.
Well, My thought was that basically people would have a "virtual" repo,
like a sandbox... No code would be checked in to the mainline until the
review/editorial/revamp process was complete.
Dave
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Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by "Frank W. Zammetti" <fz...@omnytex.com>.
Dave Newton wrote:
>> [...] to ignore the bad parts of human nature would be folly
>
> Devil's Dictionary entry for "communism"?
Is that a real work? I'm not aware of it.
>> There are better places to "get your legs" than something like Struts.
>
> You know, I've always thought it would be cool to have [potentially
> usable] projects where there could be code reviews, advice given, etc.
> to any developer that wanted to participate, as a sort of "mentoring
> project" kind of thing. Perhaps it would have to be funded by the
> contributers, a company, school, or something as it would undoubtedly
> take large chunks of time, but it could be interesting.
That's not at all a bad idea. I've been in the teacher/mentor position
many times, and I quite enjoyed it. I know what teachers mean when they
say they enjoy seeing the light of understanding come on in someones'
eyes. Its a good feeling.
I think you could do a project like that at SourceForge... just create a
master project with a bunch of sub-module under it and advertise it in
the right places.
Interestingly, I think you would *still* have to guard commit privileges
to some degree, again to guard against malicious intent. It isn't hard
for me to envision some wise-a** little punk kid coming along and
committing a bunch of garbage just to mess with those trying to learn.
In this case, a simple sign-up mechanism might be sufficient, but I
think the problem is still a valid concern.
>> Sure, you could always back it out if you had to [...]
>
> ...which obviously takes even _more_ time: not only do you have to find
> the source of the trouble but everywhere the trouble touches, and this
> would lead to massive headaches very quickly, so I completely agree:
> commit access must be guarded.
Ditto :)
>>> I think that any project has to have some coherent message and a
>>> person who visits your website and starts looking at the mail archive
>>> and so on has to be able to figure out quite quickly "WTF is struts"
>>> and to have such an incoherent message due to this Action/Shale
>>> bifurcation seems very negative. It just seems complicated and confused.
>> I think it is fair to say you are not alone in that opinion. What can
>> be done about it, other than voicing the concern, I don't know. And
>> heck, those that hold that opinion *could* be wrong.
>
> _Definitely_ not alone... I think that _if_ these will both be under the
> Struts umbrella (which seems a Bad Idea to me) there needs to be a
> _very_ clear, explicit declaration that they are _very_ different
> animals, serve _very_ different needs, and are_ definitely_not_ the same
> thing.
Ted's post about what can be done I think was excellent, and any of us
that have these types of concerns should take it to heart. I'm already
formulating some ideas for a proposal in my head... look for something
over the next few days (I'm on vacation this week, so it depends on how
busy my wife keeps me with house work :) ). Even if the proposal is
voted on and rejected, it would still be a codification of the concerns
that some may have, and that's worth something on its own.
> Dave
Frank
--
Frank W. Zammetti
Founder and Chief Software Architect
Omnytex Technologies
http://www.omnytex.com
AIM: fzammetti
Yahoo: fzammetti
MSN: fzammetti@hotmail.com
Java Web Parts -
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Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Dave Newton <ne...@pingsite.com>.
Frank W. Zammetti wrote:
> Welcome Jonathan! Better late than never :)
As long as it doesn't degrade into the Velocity vs. FreeMarker tirades
of old :/
> [...] to ignore the bad parts of human nature would be folly
Devil's Dictionary entry for "communism"?
> There are better places to "get your legs" than something like Struts.
You know, I've always thought it would be cool to have [potentially
usable] projects where there could be code reviews, advice given, etc.
to any developer that wanted to participate, as a sort of "mentoring
project" kind of thing. Perhaps it would have to be funded by the
contributers, a company, school, or something as it would undoubtedly
take large chunks of time, but it could be interesting.
> Sure, you could always back it out if you had to [...]
...which obviously takes even _more_ time: not only do you have to find
the source of the trouble but everywhere the trouble touches, and this
would lead to massive headaches very quickly, so I completely agree:
commit access must be guarded.
>> I think that any project has to have some coherent message and a
>> person who visits your website and starts looking at the mail archive
>> and so on has to be able to figure out quite quickly "WTF is struts"
>> and to have such an incoherent message due to this Action/Shale
>> bifurcation seems very negative. It just seems complicated and confused.
>
> I think it is fair to say you are not alone in that opinion. What can
> be done about it, other than voicing the concern, I don't know. And
> heck, those that hold that opinion *could* be wrong.
_Definitely_ not alone... I think that _if_ these will both be under the
Struts umbrella (which seems a Bad Idea to me) there needs to be a
_very_ clear, explicit declaration that they are _very_ different
animals, serve _very_ different needs, and are_ definitely_not_ the same
thing.
Calling it a leg doesn't make it one and all that.
Dave
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Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es>.
Jonathan Revusky wrote:
> Frank W. Zammetti wrote:
>
>> Welcome Jonathan! Better late than never :)
>>
>> Jonathan Revusky wrote:
>>> Well, to put it another way, if I were assigned the task of
>>> evaluating different things in this space, and Struts was one of
>>> them, it is very unlikely that I would settle on it. I would almost
>>> certainly end up opting for a non-schizophrenic alternative.
>>>
>>> I don't know how other people see things. This is just my honest
>>> reaction. I have no vested interest in this.
>>
>>
>>
>> I think it is fair to say that some people see no problem, others see
>> a potentially big problem. Aside from that, I'm not sure any
>> conclusion can be drawn :)
>
>
Sorry, in the part below I was speed-reading and thought you said that
no conclusion could be drawn about the previous commit privileges issue.
I take back what I say below. Whether the Action/Shale cohabitation is
a good idea or not is hard to verify empirically, so I agree with your
comment above.
JR
> Well, that's not true, Frank. A conclusion can be drawn since it's an
> empirically resolvable question. You can replicate (roughly) the same
> experiment enough times to draw a pretty definitive conclusion. I don't
> say my own experience is enough to be definitive. But so far, my
> experience suggests that the fears you express about letting people
> commit code are not very well founded. In particular, the malice issue
> is pretty much an ersatz problem, I think. Also, that people start
> committing oodles of low quality code all of a sudden doesn't seem to
> happen either.
>
> Jonathan Revusky
> --
> lead developer, FreeMarker project http://freemarker.org/
> FreeMarker group blog, http://freemarker.blogspot.com/
>
>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> Jonathan Revusky
>>
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Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Dakota Jack <da...@gmail.com>.
Very interesting conversation. Thanks to you both.
On 3/20/06, Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es> wrote:
>
> Frank W. Zammetti wrote:
> > Welcome Jonathan! Better late than never :)
> >
> > Jonathan Revusky wrote:
> >
> >>> I think here we have to agree to disagree. I see there being a
> >>> responsibility involved that you don't. It isn't like anyone can
> >>> just come along and contribute, contrary to what we might want people
> >>> to believe, because there is a barrier to entry, namely those already
> >>> involved. AND THAT IS FINE. In fact, it *has* to be that way
> >>> because the alternative is just opening up commit privileges to SVN
> >>> to anyone and everyone, and clearly *that* isn't a good idea :)
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> You say this as if it is the most obvious thing in the world. But is
> >> it? I am quite skeptical. You take as a given that commit privileges
> >> have to be closely guarded, like a high priesthood guards the inner
> >> sanctum.
> >
> >
> > Yes, I do think it has to be guarded. I can think of two good reasons:
> > outright malice and bad code.
>
> I think outright malice is quite rare. In fact, so rare as to be almost
> a non-problem. Have you actually run across this?
>
> As for bad code, this is more likely. However, bad code that actually
> does something can be refactored into something better. At least it's a
> starting point. If it's so bad that nothing of value can be salvaged,
> you can always just roll it back.
>
> I mean, this is a basic difference between software and other fields. If
> you just let anybody work on a construction project, and people did bad
> work, well, it can range from difficult to impossible to revert to the
> original state that the project was in before that work was done. In
> software, you have something completely malleable, and you can always
> just revert to some known state of the code at a given point in time.
>
> So how much damage can anybody really do?
>
> >
> > I am inclined to believe there are some people who would actively try to
> > corrupt the code in some way simply because they have an axe to grind
> > with the project.
>
> Well, we should be empirical about this. If we're trading notes about
> how to run open source projects, it should be based on actual
> experiences, not just idly speculating on what could happen, right? How
> many cases of outright malice have you run into?
>
> > This could be very subtle, maybe introducing pieces
> > of license-incompatible code. I don't imagine this would be
> > wide-spread, I think the majority of people would behave themselves just
> > fine, but to ignore the bad parts of human nature would be folly, and I
> > think given the opportunity to add anything they wanted, the bad part
> > would surface at some point.
> >
> > There could also be innocent mistakes made, like committing things that
> > you think are license-compatible that really aren't. This could happen
> > at any time obviously, but if you guard the commit rights, my hope is
> > that you only grant the rights to people you believe understand how to
> > avoid these mistakes more times than not.
>
> Well, I have to admit that I was thinking in terms of being pretty open
> about letting people commit code to the repository, but I meant *their*
> code. I don't think the problem of somebody saying: "Hey, I wrote these
> classes that do X over the weekend." and it not being true, that they
> actually plagiarized them from somewhere else, that this is very
> frequent. But again, this would be a case of bad faith that one would
> class along with the malice issue, right?
>
> And again, I don't think bad faith or malice on the part of people is
> that common a problem.
>
> >
> > Also, I think there has to be some check on the quality of the code
> > coming in. Especially when your talking about something like Struts
> > that a lot of people base big, important projects on, I don't think it
> > would be wise to let any Java beginner commit code without it being
> > scrutinized.
>
> I never said that the code people commit should not be scrutinized! Most
> certainly it should be.
>
> > There are better places to "get your legs" than something
> > like Struts. And plus, it is important to me at least that any
> > committer on any project have a basic understanding of the overall code
> > base, not just a small part to be sure the committed code fits with the
> > overall code base.
>
> Well, you can always review what they did. Your comments almost would
> lead a casual observer to think that you are unaware that any changes
> people make can be backed out. And quite easily.
>
> > I am not talking about an individual who makes a
> > targeted contribution here or there, I'm talking about a permanent
> > committer who can commit whatever they want at any time (subject to veto
> > by other committers).
>
> >
> > There is a third reason too actually: does the code at least somewhat
> > jive with where the project is going? This was part of the debate all
> > along... there has to be a balance between being open-minded and
> > accepting new ideas, and just accepting anything that comes along. A
> > good example is the SetupItems contribution I offered last year. While
> > it doesn't represent a major paradigm shift or anything like that, the
> > fact is that with Struts 1.3 in the pipeline, and chain being arguably a
> > better solution to the same problem, it was, I feel, reasonable to say
> > that the contribution maybe shouldn't have come in. I thought it was a
> > good contribution, I in fact know a fair number of people took it and
> > incorporated it on their own, but it was kind of superfluous with the
> > chain refactoring coming, and so in a sense didn't jive with where
> > Struts was going.
> >
> >> What is the basis for really believing this? The idea, AFAICS (you can
> >> clarify) is that if you let "anyone and everyone" commit code, they
> >> will commit all kinds of low-quality stuff willy-nilly.
> >
> >
> > Yes, I believe this is part of the risk.
>
> Frank, I do not know all the answers, but here is what I suspect. If you
> just give commit access to anybody who asks for it -- as revolutionary
> an idea as that may sound to you -- most likely the sky will *not* fall
> in.
>
> That the person who wants the commit access actually does malicious
> things -- I suspect this will just about never happen. That, when you
> review some of the code, you have objections to it, this can happen, but
> is not the end of the world.
>
> You have the pros and the cons. Lowering the barrier to entry has the
> pros that you have a much better chance of getting fresh blood in the
> project. Keeping barriers high leads to what we observe around here.
>
> I suspect the latter is the greater danger.
>
>
> >
> > > My own experience
> >
> >> running open-source projects has been that the vast majority of times
> >> that you give somebody commit rights to the code repository, they
> >> simply do nothing -- good or bad.
> >
> >
> > In fact, my own experience would echo that. But I'm not sure that says
> > giving commit privileges is inherently safe...
>
> Crossing the street is not inherently safe. OTOH, that, when crossing
> the street some homicidal maniac decides to run you over just for the
> hell of it -- this could happen, but quite rarely.
>
> I say the malice thing is just not going to happen that much. Consider
> this. Despite your being a wonderful guy (I'm sure) somebody has a
> grudge against you. Is that person going to: (i) do nothing, 'cause he's
> got a life (ii) get on your mailing list and write an email entitled
> "Frank is an asshole" or (iii) dissimulate his grudge against you,
> pretend he's on your side and ask for CVS access all nice and then do
> malicious things.
>
> I conjecture that (i) is 100 times more likely than (ii) which is in
> turn 100 times more likely than (iii)
>
> What do you think?
>
>
> > maybe it just says people
> > tend to get a little gun-shy when they are given extra power :)
> >
> > > When they do something, they are typically
> >
> >> quite conservative initially since they are aware that they are new
> >> kids on the block and the others are watching closely.
> >
> >
> > I agree, that is generally true. But would it be a good idea to open up
> > the repository to just *anyone*?
>
> Well, this is an empirical question. I have stated publicly that our
> policy with FreeMarker is basically to give commit access to anybody who
> asks for it. (YOu may note that there aren't that many developers on our
> project, which would seem to contradict this, but the thing is that I
> tend to remove people who, after a 6 months or more, haven't done
> anything, simply because I think the list should reflect people who
> actually have done something.
>
> That's what I was talking about.
> > Certainly some people wouldn't be conservative at first, they would jump
> > right in, and without some sort of vetting process you can't be sure
> > what will get in. Sure, you could always back it out if you had to, but
> > that seems like cleaning up a nuclear meltdown rather than having safety
> > regulations before-hand to avoid it in the first place :) (Sorry, just
> > watched The West Wing)
>
> I do not seriously see how restoring the code repository to some known
> state in the past is comparable to cleaning up a nuclear meltdown.
>
> But it's an empirical question anyway, subject to an empirical test.
> Give commit privileges to anybody who wants them and see if the sky
> falls in. My conjecture is that it won't.
>
>
> >
> >> BTW, as regards the overall topic of discussion, I don't know whether
> >> JSF will be the next big thing or not. I have not the foggiest idea.
> >> OTOH, I do have an opinion about the Action/Shale cohabitation. My
> >> opinion, looking at the Struts community and website and the rest with
> >> newbie eyes is that this is disastrous. I think that any project has
> >> to have some coherent message and a person who visits your website and
> >> starts looking at the mail archive and so on has to be able to figure
> >> out quite quickly "WTF is struts" and to have such an incoherent
> >> message due to this Action/Shale bifurcation seems very negative. It
> >> just seems complicated and confused.
> >
> >
> > I think it is fair to say you are not alone in that opinion. What can
> > be done about it, other than voicing the concern, I don't know. And
> > heck, those that hold that opinion *could* be wrong.
>
> Yes, that is always a possibility. But somehow I doubt it.
>
> Besides, it's unlikely. The last time I was wrong about something was in
> the late 1980's. :-)
>
>
> >
> >> Well, to put it another way, if I were assigned the task of evaluating
> >> different things in this space, and Struts was one of them, it is very
> >> unlikely that I would settle on it. I would almost certainly end up
> >> opting for a non-schizophrenic alternative.
> >>
> >> I don't know how other people see things. This is just my honest
> >> reaction. I have no vested interest in this.
> >
> >
> > I think it is fair to say that some people see no problem, others see a
> > potentially big problem. Aside from that, I'm not sure any conclusion
> > can be drawn :)
>
> Well, that's not true, Frank. A conclusion can be drawn since it's an
> empirically resolvable question. You can replicate (roughly) the same
> experiment enough times to draw a pretty definitive conclusion. I don't
> say my own experience is enough to be definitive. But so far, my
> experience suggests that the fears you express about letting people
> commit code are not very well founded. In particular, the malice issue
> is pretty much an ersatz problem, I think. Also, that people start
> committing oodles of low quality code all of a sudden doesn't seem to
> happen either.
>
> Jonathan Revusky
> --
> lead developer, FreeMarker project http://freemarker.org/
> FreeMarker group blog, http://freemarker.blogspot.com/
>
> >
> >> Regards,
> >>
> >> Jonathan Revusky
> >
> >
> > Frank
> >
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
>
>
--
"You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back."
~Dakota Jack~
Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es>.
Frank W. Zammetti wrote:
> Welcome Jonathan! Better late than never :)
>
> Jonathan Revusky wrote:
>
>>> I think here we have to agree to disagree. I see there being a
>>> responsibility involved that you don't. It isn't like anyone can
>>> just come along and contribute, contrary to what we might want people
>>> to believe, because there is a barrier to entry, namely those already
>>> involved. AND THAT IS FINE. In fact, it *has* to be that way
>>> because the alternative is just opening up commit privileges to SVN
>>> to anyone and everyone, and clearly *that* isn't a good idea :)
>>
>>
>>
>> You say this as if it is the most obvious thing in the world. But is
>> it? I am quite skeptical. You take as a given that commit privileges
>> have to be closely guarded, like a high priesthood guards the inner
>> sanctum.
>
>
> Yes, I do think it has to be guarded. I can think of two good reasons:
> outright malice and bad code.
I think outright malice is quite rare. In fact, so rare as to be almost
a non-problem. Have you actually run across this?
As for bad code, this is more likely. However, bad code that actually
does something can be refactored into something better. At least it's a
starting point. If it's so bad that nothing of value can be salvaged,
you can always just roll it back.
I mean, this is a basic difference between software and other fields. If
you just let anybody work on a construction project, and people did bad
work, well, it can range from difficult to impossible to revert to the
original state that the project was in before that work was done. In
software, you have something completely malleable, and you can always
just revert to some known state of the code at a given point in time.
So how much damage can anybody really do?
>
> I am inclined to believe there are some people who would actively try to
> corrupt the code in some way simply because they have an axe to grind
> with the project.
Well, we should be empirical about this. If we're trading notes about
how to run open source projects, it should be based on actual
experiences, not just idly speculating on what could happen, right? How
many cases of outright malice have you run into?
> This could be very subtle, maybe introducing pieces
> of license-incompatible code. I don't imagine this would be
> wide-spread, I think the majority of people would behave themselves just
> fine, but to ignore the bad parts of human nature would be folly, and I
> think given the opportunity to add anything they wanted, the bad part
> would surface at some point.
>
> There could also be innocent mistakes made, like committing things that
> you think are license-compatible that really aren't. This could happen
> at any time obviously, but if you guard the commit rights, my hope is
> that you only grant the rights to people you believe understand how to
> avoid these mistakes more times than not.
Well, I have to admit that I was thinking in terms of being pretty open
about letting people commit code to the repository, but I meant *their*
code. I don't think the problem of somebody saying: "Hey, I wrote these
classes that do X over the weekend." and it not being true, that they
actually plagiarized them from somewhere else, that this is very
frequent. But again, this would be a case of bad faith that one would
class along with the malice issue, right?
And again, I don't think bad faith or malice on the part of people is
that common a problem.
>
> Also, I think there has to be some check on the quality of the code
> coming in. Especially when your talking about something like Struts
> that a lot of people base big, important projects on, I don't think it
> would be wise to let any Java beginner commit code without it being
> scrutinized.
I never said that the code people commit should not be scrutinized! Most
certainly it should be.
> There are better places to "get your legs" than something
> like Struts. And plus, it is important to me at least that any
> committer on any project have a basic understanding of the overall code
> base, not just a small part to be sure the committed code fits with the
> overall code base.
Well, you can always review what they did. Your comments almost would
lead a casual observer to think that you are unaware that any changes
people make can be backed out. And quite easily.
> I am not talking about an individual who makes a
> targeted contribution here or there, I'm talking about a permanent
> committer who can commit whatever they want at any time (subject to veto
> by other committers).
>
> There is a third reason too actually: does the code at least somewhat
> jive with where the project is going? This was part of the debate all
> along... there has to be a balance between being open-minded and
> accepting new ideas, and just accepting anything that comes along. A
> good example is the SetupItems contribution I offered last year. While
> it doesn't represent a major paradigm shift or anything like that, the
> fact is that with Struts 1.3 in the pipeline, and chain being arguably a
> better solution to the same problem, it was, I feel, reasonable to say
> that the contribution maybe shouldn't have come in. I thought it was a
> good contribution, I in fact know a fair number of people took it and
> incorporated it on their own, but it was kind of superfluous with the
> chain refactoring coming, and so in a sense didn't jive with where
> Struts was going.
>
>> What is the basis for really believing this? The idea, AFAICS (you can
>> clarify) is that if you let "anyone and everyone" commit code, they
>> will commit all kinds of low-quality stuff willy-nilly.
>
>
> Yes, I believe this is part of the risk.
Frank, I do not know all the answers, but here is what I suspect. If you
just give commit access to anybody who asks for it -- as revolutionary
an idea as that may sound to you -- most likely the sky will *not* fall in.
That the person who wants the commit access actually does malicious
things -- I suspect this will just about never happen. That, when you
review some of the code, you have objections to it, this can happen, but
is not the end of the world.
You have the pros and the cons. Lowering the barrier to entry has the
pros that you have a much better chance of getting fresh blood in the
project. Keeping barriers high leads to what we observe around here.
I suspect the latter is the greater danger.
>
> > My own experience
>
>> running open-source projects has been that the vast majority of times
>> that you give somebody commit rights to the code repository, they
>> simply do nothing -- good or bad.
>
>
> In fact, my own experience would echo that. But I'm not sure that says
> giving commit privileges is inherently safe...
Crossing the street is not inherently safe. OTOH, that, when crossing
the street some homicidal maniac decides to run you over just for the
hell of it -- this could happen, but quite rarely.
I say the malice thing is just not going to happen that much. Consider
this. Despite your being a wonderful guy (I'm sure) somebody has a
grudge against you. Is that person going to: (i) do nothing, 'cause he's
got a life (ii) get on your mailing list and write an email entitled
"Frank is an asshole" or (iii) dissimulate his grudge against you,
pretend he's on your side and ask for CVS access all nice and then do
malicious things.
I conjecture that (i) is 100 times more likely than (ii) which is in
turn 100 times more likely than (iii)
What do you think?
> maybe it just says people
> tend to get a little gun-shy when they are given extra power :)
>
> > When they do something, they are typically
>
>> quite conservative initially since they are aware that they are new
>> kids on the block and the others are watching closely.
>
>
> I agree, that is generally true. But would it be a good idea to open up
> the repository to just *anyone*?
Well, this is an empirical question. I have stated publicly that our
policy with FreeMarker is basically to give commit access to anybody who
asks for it. (YOu may note that there aren't that many developers on our
project, which would seem to contradict this, but the thing is that I
tend to remove people who, after a 6 months or more, haven't done
anything, simply because I think the list should reflect people who
actually have done something.
That's what I was talking about.
> Certainly some people wouldn't be conservative at first, they would jump
> right in, and without some sort of vetting process you can't be sure
> what will get in. Sure, you could always back it out if you had to, but
> that seems like cleaning up a nuclear meltdown rather than having safety
> regulations before-hand to avoid it in the first place :) (Sorry, just
> watched The West Wing)
I do not seriously see how restoring the code repository to some known
state in the past is comparable to cleaning up a nuclear meltdown.
But it's an empirical question anyway, subject to an empirical test.
Give commit privileges to anybody who wants them and see if the sky
falls in. My conjecture is that it won't.
>
>> BTW, as regards the overall topic of discussion, I don't know whether
>> JSF will be the next big thing or not. I have not the foggiest idea.
>> OTOH, I do have an opinion about the Action/Shale cohabitation. My
>> opinion, looking at the Struts community and website and the rest with
>> newbie eyes is that this is disastrous. I think that any project has
>> to have some coherent message and a person who visits your website and
>> starts looking at the mail archive and so on has to be able to figure
>> out quite quickly "WTF is struts" and to have such an incoherent
>> message due to this Action/Shale bifurcation seems very negative. It
>> just seems complicated and confused.
>
>
> I think it is fair to say you are not alone in that opinion. What can
> be done about it, other than voicing the concern, I don't know. And
> heck, those that hold that opinion *could* be wrong.
Yes, that is always a possibility. But somehow I doubt it.
Besides, it's unlikely. The last time I was wrong about something was in
the late 1980's. :-)
>
>> Well, to put it another way, if I were assigned the task of evaluating
>> different things in this space, and Struts was one of them, it is very
>> unlikely that I would settle on it. I would almost certainly end up
>> opting for a non-schizophrenic alternative.
>>
>> I don't know how other people see things. This is just my honest
>> reaction. I have no vested interest in this.
>
>
> I think it is fair to say that some people see no problem, others see a
> potentially big problem. Aside from that, I'm not sure any conclusion
> can be drawn :)
Well, that's not true, Frank. A conclusion can be drawn since it's an
empirically resolvable question. You can replicate (roughly) the same
experiment enough times to draw a pretty definitive conclusion. I don't
say my own experience is enough to be definitive. But so far, my
experience suggests that the fears you express about letting people
commit code are not very well founded. In particular, the malice issue
is pretty much an ersatz problem, I think. Also, that people start
committing oodles of low quality code all of a sudden doesn't seem to
happen either.
Jonathan Revusky
--
lead developer, FreeMarker project http://freemarker.org/
FreeMarker group blog, http://freemarker.blogspot.com/
>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Jonathan Revusky
>
>
> Frank
>
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Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by "Frank W. Zammetti" <fz...@omnytex.com>.
Welcome Jonathan! Better late than never :)
Jonathan Revusky wrote:
>> I think here we have to agree to disagree. I see there being a
>> responsibility involved that you don't. It isn't like anyone can just
>> come along and contribute, contrary to what we might want people to
>> believe, because there is a barrier to entry, namely those already
>> involved. AND THAT IS FINE. In fact, it *has* to be that way because
>> the alternative is just opening up commit privileges to SVN to anyone
>> and everyone, and clearly *that* isn't a good idea :)
>
>
> You say this as if it is the most obvious thing in the world. But is it?
> I am quite skeptical. You take as a given that commit privileges have to
> be closely guarded, like a high priesthood guards the inner sanctum.
Yes, I do think it has to be guarded. I can think of two good reasons:
outright malice and bad code.
I am inclined to believe there are some people who would actively try to
corrupt the code in some way simply because they have an axe to grind
with the project. This could be very subtle, maybe introducing pieces
of license-incompatible code. I don't imagine this would be
wide-spread, I think the majority of people would behave themselves just
fine, but to ignore the bad parts of human nature would be folly, and I
think given the opportunity to add anything they wanted, the bad part
would surface at some point.
There could also be innocent mistakes made, like committing things that
you think are license-compatible that really aren't. This could happen
at any time obviously, but if you guard the commit rights, my hope is
that you only grant the rights to people you believe understand how to
avoid these mistakes more times than not.
Also, I think there has to be some check on the quality of the code
coming in. Especially when your talking about something like Struts
that a lot of people base big, important projects on, I don't think it
would be wise to let any Java beginner commit code without it being
scrutinized. There are better places to "get your legs" than something
like Struts. And plus, it is important to me at least that any
committer on any project have a basic understanding of the overall code
base, not just a small part to be sure the committed code fits with the
overall code base. I am not talking about an individual who makes a
targeted contribution here or there, I'm talking about a permanent
committer who can commit whatever they want at any time (subject to veto
by other committers).
There is a third reason too actually: does the code at least somewhat
jive with where the project is going? This was part of the debate all
along... there has to be a balance between being open-minded and
accepting new ideas, and just accepting anything that comes along. A
good example is the SetupItems contribution I offered last year. While
it doesn't represent a major paradigm shift or anything like that, the
fact is that with Struts 1.3 in the pipeline, and chain being arguably a
better solution to the same problem, it was, I feel, reasonable to say
that the contribution maybe shouldn't have come in. I thought it was a
good contribution, I in fact know a fair number of people took it and
incorporated it on their own, but it was kind of superfluous with the
chain refactoring coming, and so in a sense didn't jive with where
Struts was going.
> What is the basis for really believing this? The idea, AFAICS (you can
> clarify) is that if you let "anyone and everyone" commit code, they will
> commit all kinds of low-quality stuff willy-nilly.
Yes, I believe this is part of the risk.
> My own experience
> running open-source projects has been that the vast majority of times
> that you give somebody commit rights to the code repository, they simply
> do nothing -- good or bad.
In fact, my own experience would echo that. But I'm not sure that says
giving commit privileges is inherently safe... maybe it just says people
tend to get a little gun-shy when they are given extra power :)
> When they do something, they are typically
> quite conservative initially since they are aware that they are new kids
> on the block and the others are watching closely.
I agree, that is generally true. But would it be a good idea to open up
the repository to just *anyone*? That's what I was talking about.
Certainly some people wouldn't be conservative at first, they would jump
right in, and without some sort of vetting process you can't be sure
what will get in. Sure, you could always back it out if you had to, but
that seems like cleaning up a nuclear meltdown rather than having safety
regulations before-hand to avoid it in the first place :) (Sorry, just
watched The West Wing)
> BTW, as regards the overall topic of discussion, I don't know whether
> JSF will be the next big thing or not. I have not the foggiest idea.
> OTOH, I do have an opinion about the Action/Shale cohabitation. My
> opinion, looking at the Struts community and website and the rest with
> newbie eyes is that this is disastrous. I think that any project has to
> have some coherent message and a person who visits your website and
> starts looking at the mail archive and so on has to be able to figure
> out quite quickly "WTF is struts" and to have such an incoherent message
> due to this Action/Shale bifurcation seems very negative. It just seems
> complicated and confused.
I think it is fair to say you are not alone in that opinion. What can
be done about it, other than voicing the concern, I don't know. And
heck, those that hold that opinion *could* be wrong.
> Well, to put it another way, if I were assigned the task of evaluating
> different things in this space, and Struts was one of them, it is very
> unlikely that I would settle on it. I would almost certainly end up
> opting for a non-schizophrenic alternative.
>
> I don't know how other people see things. This is just my honest
> reaction. I have no vested interest in this.
I think it is fair to say that some people see no problem, others see a
potentially big problem. Aside from that, I'm not sure any conclusion
can be drawn :)
> Regards,
>
> Jonathan Revusky
Frank
--
Frank W. Zammetti
Founder and Chief Software Architect
Omnytex Technologies
http://www.omnytex.com
AIM: fzammetti
Yahoo: fzammetti
MSN: fzammetti@hotmail.com
Java Web Parts -
http://javawebparts.sourceforge.net
Supplying the wheel, so you don't have to reinvent it!
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Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es>.
Frank W. Zammetti wrote:
> Ted Husted wrote:
>
>> On 3/14/06, Frank W. Zammetti <fz...@omnytex.com> wrote:
>>
>>> but I to this day do not believe it was the motivation of the larger
>>> entities involved.
>>
>>
>> True. If those "larger entities" had any say, we wouldn't be merging
>> with WebWork. If anyone wanted proof that we are making our decisions
>> based on community, rather than the agenda of a "larger entity", there
>> it is.
>
>
> No argument there :)
>
>>> This is where I do happen to disagree with you Ted. As I said earlier,
>>> Struts has become something more to a great many people. Many
>>> businesses rely on Struts. Many peoples' livelihoods depend on Struts.
>>> I hope you would agree with those statements. Because of that, you
>>> take on a greater responsibility than simply contributing.
>>
>>
>> No. The people you mention should take on the greater responsibility
>> of contributing to the project and doing what they can to make Apache
>> Struts a continued success.
I know I'm getting involved in this too late and maybe the thread has
died down. The thing is that I was reading through this thread today
(quite interesting stuff) and it mirrors stuff I've been thinking about.
>
>
> I think here we have to agree to disagree. I see there being a
> responsibility involved that you don't. It isn't like anyone can just
> come along and contribute, contrary to what we might want people to
> believe, because there is a barrier to entry, namely those already
> involved. AND THAT IS FINE. In fact, it *has* to be that way because
> the alternative is just opening up commit privileges to SVN to anyone
> and everyone, and clearly *that* isn't a good idea :)
You say this as if it is the most obvious thing in the world. But is it?
I am quite skeptical. You take as a given that commit privileges have to
be closely guarded, like a high priesthood guards the inner sanctum.
What is the basis for really believing this? The idea, AFAICS (you can
clarify) is that if you let "anyone and everyone" commit code, they will
commit all kinds of low-quality stuff willy-nilly. My own experience
running open-source projects has been that the vast majority of times
that you give somebody commit rights to the code repository, they simply
do nothing -- good or bad. When they do something, they are typically
quite conservative initially since they are aware that they are new kids
on the block and the others are watching closely.
In any case, I recently wrote a blog entry about this kind of stuff.
http://freemarker.blogspot.com/2006/02/musings-on-wikipedia-and-open-source.html
BTW, as regards the overall topic of discussion, I don't know whether
JSF will be the next big thing or not. I have not the foggiest idea.
OTOH, I do have an opinion about the Action/Shale cohabitation. My
opinion, looking at the Struts community and website and the rest with
newbie eyes is that this is disastrous. I think that any project has to
have some coherent message and a person who visits your website and
starts looking at the mail archive and so on has to be able to figure
out quite quickly "WTF is struts" and to have such an incoherent message
due to this Action/Shale bifurcation seems very negative. It just seems
complicated and confused.
Well, to put it another way, if I were assigned the task of evaluating
different things in this space, and Struts was one of them, it is very
unlikely that I would settle on it. I would almost certainly end up
opting for a non-schizophrenic alternative.
I don't know how other people see things. This is just my honest
reaction. I have no vested interest in this.
Regards,
Jonathan Revusky
--
lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/
>
> But, being part of that necessary barrier too is part of the
> responsibility, at least as I view things.
>
>> Deciding what is best for other people is a job better left to the
>> "larger entities". Our role is to create the frameworks that we want
>> to use to build our own applications, and share the wealth, best we
>> can.
>
>
> Agreed, 100%. It's *after* you've shared that wealth and that wealth
> has turned into something bigger that I believe the responsibility comes
> in to play. I'm sorry to hear you don't agree, but I never said it
> wasn't a debatable point :)
>
>> Right now, this year, for me, that framework is Action2. But, who
>> knows, next year, I could be working on a JSF project. And, if I am,
>> I'll be glad to find a Struts Shale framework here, ready for me to
>> use.
>
>
> Same here. Believe me, I *want* Shale to continue to develop. Same for
> JSF. Same for Spring MVC, same for Wicket, etc. We can debate whether
> Shale is in the right place or not, but to me, it's existence is in no
> way questioned... it's a good thing!
>
>> -Ted.
>
>
> Frank
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Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by "Frank W. Zammetti" <fz...@omnytex.com>.
Ted Husted wrote:
> On 3/14/06, Frank W. Zammetti <fz...@omnytex.com> wrote:
>> but I to this day do not believe it was the motivation of the larger entities involved.
>
> True. If those "larger entities" had any say, we wouldn't be merging
> with WebWork. If anyone wanted proof that we are making our decisions
> based on community, rather than the agenda of a "larger entity", there
> it is.
No argument there :)
>> This is where I do happen to disagree with you Ted. As I said earlier,
>> Struts has become something more to a great many people. Many
>> businesses rely on Struts. Many peoples' livelihoods depend on Struts.
>> I hope you would agree with those statements. Because of that, you
>> take on a greater responsibility than simply contributing.
>
> No. The people you mention should take on the greater responsibility
> of contributing to the project and doing what they can to make Apache
> Struts a continued success.
I think here we have to agree to disagree. I see there being a
responsibility involved that you don't. It isn't like anyone can just
come along and contribute, contrary to what we might want people to
believe, because there is a barrier to entry, namely those already
involved. AND THAT IS FINE. In fact, it *has* to be that way because
the alternative is just opening up commit privileges to SVN to anyone
and everyone, and clearly *that* isn't a good idea :)
But, being part of that necessary barrier too is part of the
responsibility, at least as I view things.
> Deciding what is best for other people is a job better left to the
> "larger entities". Our role is to create the frameworks that we want
> to use to build our own applications, and share the wealth, best we
> can.
Agreed, 100%. It's *after* you've shared that wealth and that wealth
has turned into something bigger that I believe the responsibility comes
in to play. I'm sorry to hear you don't agree, but I never said it
wasn't a debatable point :)
> Right now, this year, for me, that framework is Action2. But, who
> knows, next year, I could be working on a JSF project. And, if I am,
> I'll be glad to find a Struts Shale framework here, ready for me to
> use.
Same here. Believe me, I *want* Shale to continue to develop. Same for
JSF. Same for Spring MVC, same for Wicket, etc. We can debate whether
Shale is in the right place or not, but to me, it's existence is in no
way questioned... it's a good thing!
> -Ted.
Frank
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Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Ted Husted <te...@gmail.com>.
On 3/14/06, Frank W. Zammetti <fz...@omnytex.com> wrote:
> but I to this day do not believe it was the motivation of the larger entities involved.
True. If those "larger entities" had any say, we wouldn't be merging
with WebWork. If anyone wanted proof that we are making our decisions
based on community, rather than the agenda of a "larger entity", there
it is.
> This is where I do happen to disagree with you Ted. As I said earlier,
> Struts has become something more to a great many people. Many
> businesses rely on Struts. Many peoples' livelihoods depend on Struts.
> I hope you would agree with those statements. Because of that, you
> take on a greater responsibility than simply contributing.
No. The people you mention should take on the greater responsibility
of contributing to the project and doing what they can to make Apache
Struts a continued success.
* http://struts.apache.org/helping.html
As an ASF project, we have the responsibility of encouraging and
nuturing new collaborators and building a collaborative development
community around our software. If people find the sofware useful, it's
their responsibilty to return the favor and help us in any way they
can.
Deciding what is best for other people is a job better left to the
"larger entities". Our role is to create the frameworks that we want
to use to build our own applications, and share the wealth, best we
can.
Right now, this year, for me, that framework is Action2. But, who
knows, next year, I could be working on a JSF project. And, if I am,
I'll be glad to find a Struts Shale framework here, ready for me to
use.
-Ted.
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Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Michael Jouravlev <jm...@gmail.com>.
On 3/14/06, Frank W. Zammetti <fz...@omnytex.com> wrote:
> When you contribute, and when you accept a position as a leader in the
> community, as any Struts committer does for instance, you accept a
> certain degree of responsibility to the community.
"For no particular reason I just kept on going. I ran clear to the
ocean. And when I got there, I figured, since I'd gone this far, I
might as well turn around, just keep on going. When I got to another
ocean, I figured, since I'd gone this far, I might as well just turn
back, keep right on going."
- Sir, why are you running?
- Why are you running?
- Are you doing this for world peace?
- Are you doing this for women's right?
- Or for the environment?
- Or for animals?
- Or for nuclear arms?
"They just couldn't believe that somebody would do all that running
for no particular reason. I just felt like running."
"I had a lot of company. My Momma always said you got to put the past
behind you before you can move on. And I think that's what my running
was all about. I had run for three years, two months, fourteen days,
and sixteen hours."
> No, for me, the responsibility begins when you decide you want to
> contribute, and it grows as you become more of a contributor and
> therefor more of a leader in the community. This is my basic premise.
> This also would seem to jive with basic sociological communal theory
I am finished with communal theories, had enough of them in the
country where I came from. Not my shot of vodka. I cannot care less
about my neighbours as long as they keep quiet from 23:00 till 7:00.
Anything else - get high, fuck your labrador or burn down the house -
I don't care.
Michael J.
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Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by "Frank W. Zammetti" <fz...@omnytex.com>.
Man, my head metaphorically hurts! LOL
Michael Jouravlev wrote:
> Frank, let us not mix Struts and JSF. Struts was created by a bunch of
> enthusiasts and was put up for grabs. Like it? Take it. Its license
> allows you (metaphorical "you") to get the source code and run with
> it. Don't like it? Change it. Why I (metaphorical "I") should fix bugs
> and improve current code only because you (metaphorical "you") think
> that I (metaphorical "I") *must* do that?
When you contribute, and when you accept a position as a leader in the
community, as any Struts committer does for instance, you accept a
certain degree of responsibility to the community. That is my point. I
do not for one second *expect anyone* to contribute, to fix bugs, etc.
I would hope many are inclined to do so for the health of the community,
but I do not expect it and would never require it of anyone. Arguably,
just using an open-source product infers a certain degree of communal
responsibility by the very nature of open-source, but I'm not quite that
much of a hippie and I don't buy into that theory fully :)
No, for me, the responsibility begins when you decide you want to
contribute, and it grows as you become more of a contributor and
therefor more of a leader in the community. This is my basic premise.
This also would seem to jive with basic sociological communal theory,
from what admittedly limited knowledge I have of it (I'll be sure to
bring it up with my brother-in-law next change I get... he has his
doctorate in Sociology).
As a real-world example, if you live in your neighborhood and keep to
yourself, maybe just use the neighborhood's playground occasionally, you
have very little, if any, responsibility to your neighbors. Keep the
noise down, keep your yard relatively clean, don't break the swing set
at the playground, etc. But it you join the community leadership group
voluntarily, have you not accepted a higher degree of responsibility to
the community? Do not the decisions you make have consequences for
others and therefore require greater consideration? How is any of that
any different from an open-source development community?
>>> If our solutions solve other
>>> people's problems too, that's great, but, for us, marketshare is not
>>> the point of the exercise.
>> But it has *become* at least *part* of the exercise. Struts has. When
>> an open-source project gets to a certain level of acceptance, there
>> *has* to be a point where responsibility to others kicks in.
>
> I don't think so. not Until zillions of buckazoids fall in my palms
> (metaphorical "my"... to my regret). Nah.
I don't know what a buckazoid is, but it sounds like something I want to
have lots of! :)
> Michael J.
Frank Z.
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Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Michael Jouravlev <jm...@gmail.com>.
On 3/14/06, Frank W. Zammetti <fz...@omnytex.com> wrote:
> > For us, it's not about branding or marketshare or any of that. It's
> > about volunteer share. It's about which products that we, as
> > engineeers, want to use to build our own applications.
>
> This is where I do happen to disagree with you Ted. As I said earlier,
> Struts has become something more to a great many people. Many
> businesses rely on Struts. Many peoples' livelihoods depend on Struts.
> I hope you would agree with those statements. Because of that, you
> take on a greater responsibility than simply contributing. Of course
> you should be guided to a large degree by what you want to use to build
> your own applications. That's understandable and appropriate. But it
> you don't see yourself having a larger responsibility because of what
> Struts is to many people, I don't think you completely appreciate the
> position you have (again, I'm not speaking directly to you Ted, this is
> the metaphorical "you").
Frank, let us not mix Struts and JSF. Struts was created by a bunch of
enthusiasts and was put up for grabs. Like it? Take it. Its license
allows you (metaphorical "you") to get the source code and run with
it. Don't like it? Change it. Why I (metaphorical "I") should fix bugs
and improve current code only because you (metaphorical "you") think
that I (metaphorical "I") *must* do that?
JSF, on the other hand, was strictly commercial from the day one.
Vendors' support is programmed in it (IDEs, components, whatnot) as
well as vendors and business put their stake on JSF. JSF will succeed,
too much is on stake. Will it kill all other framework, still remains
the question.
> > If our solutions solve other
> > people's problems too, that's great, but, for us, marketshare is not
> > the point of the exercise.
>
> But it has *become* at least *part* of the exercise. Struts has. When
> an open-source project gets to a certain level of acceptance, there
> *has* to be a point where responsibility to others kicks in.
I don't think so. not Until zillions of buckazoids fall in my palms
(metaphorical "my"... to my regret). Nah.
Michael J.
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Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by br...@bitstream.net.
I just thought I'd chime in here even though I haven't been following the
arguments all along. As background - I'm working a contract where we use
JSF with ADF controls mixed in. I have had a very pleasant experience
using JSF with Eclipse though most of my previous experience was with
Struts. There are some problems with refreshing pages and hitting the
backbutton but aside from that it's been good to be able to (for instance)
tie buttons directly to methods on backing beans.
The ADF controls have some pretty cool features. Like partial updates
which essentially use Ajax to update part of the page without a full
refresh. However the ADF controls haven't been nearly as customizable as
the customer wanted so we've had to "make do" in places where we should
have been able to redesign. Recently we found out that a contract had
never been negotiated with Oracle on using the ADF controls so we started
that process. It turned out we couldn't get the controls by themselves
and the cost would be around $50,000. For that amount I could have spent
6 months developing the few controls we really needed myself and they'd be
customized (or customizable) to our needs...but it was too late for
anything like that. Then ADF was given to Apache - but not everything we
needed such as the look and feel - which would take us months to create on
our own. So if we wanted to go live we had to pay off Oracle. This is a
special case but it does exhibit how it can be dangerous to go with a
closed source solution without knowing what you're getting into.
Braedan Hegberg
> On 3/15/06, Greg Reddin <gr...@apache.org> wrote:
>>
>>
>> On Mar 14, 2006, at 10:25 PM, Frank W. Zammetti wrote:
>>
>> > JSF is a way for a lot of people to make money. Many vendors have
>> > a stake in its "commercial" success or failure. This has been true
>> > from the beginning. Some would say the whole point of JSF from the
>> > start was to make money for one company, and eventually a lot of
>> > other companies. Incidentally, I'm a happy capitalist, I therefore
>> > have no problem whatsoever with that! I just like that fact not
>> > being denied, and I for one do see it as fact. Contrast this with
>> > how something like Struts began, which came straight from the
>> > idealism you speak of, a desire to help a community, a desire by
>> > one developer to create something that not only helped themselves
>> > but helped others. I think that is a wonderful motivation. And
>> > that may have been that same developers' motivation with JSF as
>> > well, but I to this day do not believe it was the motivation of the
>> > larger entities involved.
>>
>> I find it ironic that people are bemoaning JSF for its commercial
>> interests. First, I seem to remember sometime between 2001 and 2003
>> there were a lot of people asking "When is Struts going to become a
>> JSR?". So, for the moment let's just pretend that the motivation for
>> JSR-127 was to standardize an MVC framework. By the time JSR-127 was
>> introduced we were already discussing the things we'd do differently
>> in version 2 of Struts. Surely we didn't think the output of JSR-127
>> would be Struts as we knew it then. Surely we wouldn't have been
>> happy if it had.
>>
>> Second, look at who is represented on the Expert Group for JSR-127.
>> Why would companies like Oracle, Borland, IBM, Macromedia, BEA, HP,
>> etc. bother to participate in a such project if they weren't
>> protecting their own interests? Just look at how many tool-makers
>> are present among the expert group. Is it any wonder the resulting
>> spec brings them the opportunity to cash in? That's not even to
>> mention all the other community-driven framework options that were in
>> play when JSF was under development. Personally, I think the
>> resulting framework is not too bad considering. I would've liked the
>> Struts worldview to have been better represented - or maybe I am
>> saying the "tool-less" developer's worldview. But given all the
>> players, I'm not surprised or disappointed with what we have.
>>
>> Now, directly to your point of commercial interests. You say "JSF is
>> a way for a lot of people to make money." What is Java? Do you
>> think Sun developed Java as a "love offering" to the developer
>> community? Why do any of these organizations exist? For that
>> matter, why do I develop software? Is it because I've found the
>> meaning of life or simply because it's better than working at a
>> rendering plant? Well, for me it's somewhere in the middle. But for
>> organizations like Sun, Oracle, or BEA, it's all about the
>> economics. I'm not talking about the individuals that work at these
>> companies. I'm talking about the organizations themselves. At the
>> organizational level, they are solely about increasing financial
>> gain. And I'm not saying that's bad. If they weren't they would
>> quickly go out of business. People start companies to grow
>> business. People start non-profit organizations (like ASF) for the
>> betterment of mankind. So I guess I find the argument of commercial
>> interests to be completely irrelevant.
>>
>> I like some aspects of JSF and I dislike others. For some tasks I
>> find it vastly superior to Struts. For others I find it difficult to
>> use. Now *maybe* if JSF was developed in a community instead of a
>> committee it would be less intrusive and more useful. But that's one
>> of the reasons I have hope for Shale. It starts with the foundation
>> of the JSF standard. It then builds on the foundation in a community-
>> centric way and that has the possibility of resulting in something
>> very useful.
>>
>> Greg
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>> For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> "You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back."
> ~Dakota Jack~
>
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Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Dakota Jack <da...@gmail.com>.
Who was "bemoaning"?
On 3/15/06, Greg Reddin <gr...@apache.org> wrote:
>
>
> On Mar 14, 2006, at 10:25 PM, Frank W. Zammetti wrote:
>
> > JSF is a way for a lot of people to make money. Many vendors have
> > a stake in its "commercial" success or failure. This has been true
> > from the beginning. Some would say the whole point of JSF from the
> > start was to make money for one company, and eventually a lot of
> > other companies. Incidentally, I'm a happy capitalist, I therefore
> > have no problem whatsoever with that! I just like that fact not
> > being denied, and I for one do see it as fact. Contrast this with
> > how something like Struts began, which came straight from the
> > idealism you speak of, a desire to help a community, a desire by
> > one developer to create something that not only helped themselves
> > but helped others. I think that is a wonderful motivation. And
> > that may have been that same developers' motivation with JSF as
> > well, but I to this day do not believe it was the motivation of the
> > larger entities involved.
>
> I find it ironic that people are bemoaning JSF for its commercial
> interests. First, I seem to remember sometime between 2001 and 2003
> there were a lot of people asking "When is Struts going to become a
> JSR?". So, for the moment let's just pretend that the motivation for
> JSR-127 was to standardize an MVC framework. By the time JSR-127 was
> introduced we were already discussing the things we'd do differently
> in version 2 of Struts. Surely we didn't think the output of JSR-127
> would be Struts as we knew it then. Surely we wouldn't have been
> happy if it had.
>
> Second, look at who is represented on the Expert Group for JSR-127.
> Why would companies like Oracle, Borland, IBM, Macromedia, BEA, HP,
> etc. bother to participate in a such project if they weren't
> protecting their own interests? Just look at how many tool-makers
> are present among the expert group. Is it any wonder the resulting
> spec brings them the opportunity to cash in? That's not even to
> mention all the other community-driven framework options that were in
> play when JSF was under development. Personally, I think the
> resulting framework is not too bad considering. I would've liked the
> Struts worldview to have been better represented - or maybe I am
> saying the "tool-less" developer's worldview. But given all the
> players, I'm not surprised or disappointed with what we have.
>
> Now, directly to your point of commercial interests. You say "JSF is
> a way for a lot of people to make money." What is Java? Do you
> think Sun developed Java as a "love offering" to the developer
> community? Why do any of these organizations exist? For that
> matter, why do I develop software? Is it because I've found the
> meaning of life or simply because it's better than working at a
> rendering plant? Well, for me it's somewhere in the middle. But for
> organizations like Sun, Oracle, or BEA, it's all about the
> economics. I'm not talking about the individuals that work at these
> companies. I'm talking about the organizations themselves. At the
> organizational level, they are solely about increasing financial
> gain. And I'm not saying that's bad. If they weren't they would
> quickly go out of business. People start companies to grow
> business. People start non-profit organizations (like ASF) for the
> betterment of mankind. So I guess I find the argument of commercial
> interests to be completely irrelevant.
>
> I like some aspects of JSF and I dislike others. For some tasks I
> find it vastly superior to Struts. For others I find it difficult to
> use. Now *maybe* if JSF was developed in a community instead of a
> committee it would be less intrusive and more useful. But that's one
> of the reasons I have hope for Shale. It starts with the foundation
> of the JSF standard. It then builds on the foundation in a community-
> centric way and that has the possibility of resulting in something
> very useful.
>
> Greg
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
>
>
--
"You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back."
~Dakota Jack~
Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by "Frank W. Zammetti" <fz...@omnytex.com>.
On Wed, March 15, 2006 12:49 pm, Nick Heudecker said:
> Then again, I'm probably the easiest guy to sell a car too... be straight
>
>> with me from the start, and even if your story (read; price) isn't as
>> good
>> as the salesman who isn't as straight, you probably made the sale :)
>>
>>
>
> I've got a loads of stuff to sell you. I don't know how well it works,
> but
> it's really expensive. Where do I send the invoice? :)
Hehe... send'em here... where should I send the rubber checks to?!? ;) LOL
Frank
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Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Nick Heudecker <nh...@gmail.com>.
Then again, I'm probably the easiest guy to sell a car too... be straight
> with me from the start, and even if your story (read; price) isn't as good
> as the salesman who isn't as straight, you probably made the sale :)
>
>
I've got a loads of stuff to sell you. I don't know how well it works, but
it's really expensive. Where do I send the invoice? :)
Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Antonio Petrelli <br...@tariffenet.it>.
Ted Husted ha scritto:
> blah blah blah...
> -Ted.
>
Isn't it too much serious for a [FRIDAY] post? ;-)
P.S. I just wanted to be funny, you and Cedric Du Moulin are my myths
since I was at the university. Surprisingly I didn't know Mr McClanahan
before subscribing to this list...
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Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Al Eridani <al...@gmail.com>.
On 3/17/06, Ted Husted <te...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I think one mark of a committer and PMC member is that we don't have
> those type of passions. There are three of four of those passionate
> types on this thread. But none of them are committers.
Maybe that is an indication of how much of a closed club the committers
have become. "The committers" versus "the rest". And when you have a
committer casually say that, oh, he just doesn't have time to look into
someone's contribution, too bad, but, at the same time, he doesn't offer
to let someone with possibly more time to take his place, the club
atmosphere is reinforced.
> And, out of the
> thousands of people who subscribe to this list, it's the same three or
> four people who complain, over and over again. (What's is the sound of
> one hand clapping?)
You would be surprised at how many users have similar opinions but are
sensible enough not to pipe up with "Me too!" responses. I just added this
note to disabuse you of the notion that "no noise" = "no discontent".
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Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Dakota Jack <da...@gmail.com>.
So the "committers" are these stoic types who have nothing to do with
anything evil, nasty, or wrong in Struts. None "committers" are passionate
oafs who do not understand squat. I think the people in charge should take
responsibility for the situation. You don't see the "situation" as usual.
"Committers" are not a type and have no "marks". "Committers" are just
people you guys have chosen to play with. There is nothing more special
about "committers" than there is about "your friends".
It is interesting that you find the views of people, like this person, as
"complaining". I find your notes complaining. I also find your notes
completely divorced from reality and the facts. They are akin to Craig's
notes that JSF is just hopping in the job market. Your stats are really
skewed.
There are all sorts of people who advocate strongly for JSF on this list,
and Craig leads the list. Just because you are blissfully happy about it
does not mean there is no divide, and does not mean there is no impact. The
bottom line will be the future of Struts. See how that goes. You have been
the shepards. Now you are all starting to bail about Struts failures by
blaming the need for backward compatibility, etc. The truth is that Struts
is in horrible shape compared to the standards of the present moment and you
committers get all the credit. Congratulations!
I assume you believe this stuff that you repeat over and over, like that one
hand clapping you mention. However, it is in my opinion sophomoric and
false. If you have any intention of using Shale, then I really did
misunderstand the depth of your knowledge in the past.
MyFaces or something similar I could understand. But Shale? Lord!
I don't think, by the way, that the present Struts is anything like the
Apache culture. Just hang out, as I am sure you do, on the other lists and
you will immediately see the difference. Struts is in a unique predicament
created by those "committers" who have no passions and apparently no
responsibility, even though they are in charge.
This is the old, standard, never changes, Ted who won't listen and who says
"na na na na na" with his ears covered. You are the reason the people you
deride are not committers, along with the other "committers" who are your
progeny. Don't tell me that the committers on the whole are there by
merit. Some of them have trouble slobbering. Others are talented and
forthright. Others are talented and political as hell. There is every
variety in the mix.
I also have new sfor you, Ted. Non-committers have jobs, families,
talents. The fact is that Struts is a place of division. I guess you are
right though. That has nothing to do with you or the committes. Divisive
people just happened to pick on Struts. You poor, poor committers.
Sometimes fate just has this fickle hand. You deserved better than to have
to deal with those "complainers".
On 3/17/06, Ted Husted <te...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > The problem is not with JSF itself, but the way the Struts team has
> divided itself
> > into competing camps. JSF and Struts are competing because their
> > approaches are orthogonal; it doesn't make any sense to do both
> > unless you are on a migration path.
> ...
> > I think Struts does have a future, but I believe there needs
> > to be honesty about the competition here. Struts DOES COMPETE against
> > JSF and Shale, and putting these competitors into one mailing list
> > will definitely bring out the passion on both sides.
>
> I think one mark of a committer and PMC member is that we don't have
> those type of passions. There are three of four of those passionate
> types on this thread. But none of them are committers. And, out of the
> thousands of people who subscribe to this list, it's the same three or
> four people who complain, over and over again. (What's is the sound of
> one hand clapping?)
>
> Committers tend to be pragmatic people who are just trying to earn our
> living building applications that work. We aren't trying to be an
> expert committee that decides what everyone else should be doing.
> We're just trying to solve our own problems and share the solutions.
> Like every working engineer, sometimes we get to choose what
> technologies we use. Sometimes the technologies choose us.
>
> Right now, I don't need to use JSF. Six months from now, I might. And
> should that day come, I'll be very glad that both my old and new
> friends have been cranking out Shale code that I will be able to use.
> And since we are on the same dev list, it's easy for me to keep up
> with what we are doing with Shale, even if I don't need to use it at
> work today. Duty now for the future!
>
> It's a little bit like saying that because my brother likes the Titans
> and I like the Falcons, one of us has to move, since we couldn't
> possibly live under one roof, and share our love for football. Sure
> there are some people who can't put aside their fanatism, and who
> insist on arguing about things that in five or six years won't matter.
> But, those people are not the Struts committers.
>
> At the Apache Software Foundation, we take the long view. A couple of
> years ago is was JSTL. Now is JSF. In a few more years, it will be
> something else. And, when those new years come, I very much hope that
> all the committers we have here now will still be at my side, helping
> each other out, collaborating, and sharing the wealth. Just as we do
> today.
>
> As for this thread, I've said all that I have to say, several times
> over. I won't say anything more. If some people don't understand our
> position, that's fine. A lot of people don't understand the Apache
> Culture. But, if someone doesn't understand us, please don't assume we
> are anything other than what we appear to be. A gaggle of engineeers
> trying to solve our own problems in a cooperative, collaborative way.
> That's what we were six years ago, and that's what we will be six
> years from now.
>
> -Ted.
>
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>
>
--
"You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back."
~Dakota Jack~
Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by "Frank W. Zammetti" <fz...@omnytex.com>.
Dave Newton wrote:
> Frank W. Zammetti wrote:
>> If someone says to you "the sky is purple", and totally believes it
>> themselves, but you believe it isn't true yet you say nothing, aren't you
>> on an intellectual level lying?
>
> No, you're just not saying anything.
Maybe I watched too many Star Trek: TNG speeches on the duty of Star
Fleet officers first and foremost to the truth ;) I have NEVER claimed
to be anything other than a geek!
> Being agnostic-tending-towards-atheistic if I go to a Christian church
> and somebody tells me there is a god am I "intellectually lying" if I
> don't enter into a debate about it?
I'm sure I have an answer for that, but I'm not sure what it is at the
moment :)
>> My feeling is that if you see something that you don't agree with that you
>> think can be made better, you have an obligation to speak up and try. You
>> may fail miserably, but again, inaction is worse than being wrong IMO.
>>
>
> I just don't see it that way; that's all. I do not have an obligation to
> fix (or try to fix) everything I think can be made better. There is
> _too_much_that_needs_fixing_ and the overwhelming guilt I would feel at
> my inevitable failure would be unbearable. The world is an imperfect
> place and will remain that way despite any effort on my part. Does this
> mean I am completely inactive? Of course not. But I must pick my battles
> wisely.
That's fair. And I certainly am not out trying to fix everything I see
wrong in the world either. God knows the universe hasn't existed long
enough to pull that off!
> I've had a number of things I'd like to fix in Microsoft Windows and the
> US government yet I am rarely approached to contribute my ideas, and my
> own approaches have been strangely ignored (I think making solar thermal
> heating systems on new buildings, at the very least commercial ones,
> mandatory is about the most sensible idea I've ever had but it hasn't
> happened yet :(
Run for office... I'd support you on that idea! :)
> So I guess it's a good thing they weren't "taken in to the fold?" ;)
Yep, exactly what I've said in the past :) It ultimately, I believe,
turned out for the better because it went in a different direction that
I think is ultimately more useful to more people.
> But seriously... if you wanted AjaxTags to get exposure then limiting
> yourself to the Struts newsgroup (which is the only place I ever saw
> anything about it) probably isn't the best way to go about it. Guerrilla
> Marketing! If beating your head against one wall doesn't work, beat it
> against another... and another... until you stop leaving little spoogy
> red marks! :D
If you mean AjaxTags in its current form tt actually has been mentioned
elsewhere:
http://www.theserverside.com/news/thread.tss?thread_id=36665
http://www.programmersheaven.com/zone13/cat553/42318.htm
http://wiki.osafoundation.org/bin/view/Projects/AjaxLibraries?rev=1.24
http://www.jroller.com/page/javawug?entry=editor_s_report_of_bof
http://husted.com/central/Resources/Action/articles-2006.html
http://scuttle.org/tags.php/library+web
http://www.digitalhobbit.com/archives/2005/09/25/java-web-parts/
http://developers.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/09/22/2219234
http://www.codecomments.com/archive245-2005-9-626845.html
http://www.shadows.com/usertags/crichey/OpenSource
http://www.furl.net/furled.jsp?topic=java+development
(and only some of them were done by me!)
If you meant the original version, your right... I could have done more
to try and build a community and make it harder to reject them from
Struts itself.
I think this is one lesson I've learned since then... better to do
something and let a community grow around it than try and build the
community first. That's what I'm trying to do with JWP... I'm taking
the "if you build it, they will come" approach, rather than the "hey, if
I build this, will you come?" approach. This is something Ted has said,
and I have to admit I probably didn't get it a year ago. I think I do
now. That's also why I'm not bitter about the things I suggested not
getting in. I realize now that my approach was not optimal, and I think
I've learned from the experience.
> I don't feel obligated to open my mouth every time I disagree with
> someone ;)
Hehe... apparently I do :)
>> And I think you have the right attitude. But can you really say that,
>> from a technical standpoint, you don't expect that a committer knows what
>> they're talking about?
>
> I keep my hopes high and my expectations low ;)
Always a good way to ensure your satisfied :) I had many a happy
Christmases growing up with that approach!
>> Certainly that should be one prerequisite for
>> being a committer on *any* project, shouldn't it?
>
> "Should" implies a level of obligation I am uncomfortable with in this
> context.
>
> (One of my more irritating catch-phrases that my friends really wish I
> wouldn't say any more ;)
>
> I _hope_ that anybody contributing code to a project is a good
> programmer and hopefully a good designer.
Wait, back up... I said prerequisite for being a COMMITTER. And I'm not
even so much talking about code quality... I'm talking about knowing the
project. And, let me be clear, I don't expect ANY committer to know ALL
the details of any given project. But, there should a certain level of
understanding though IMO, and the other committers are the ones that
decide what that level is.
I know with JWP for instance, before I invited either of the two
committers to join, I wanted to see a couple of submissions so I could
try and guage them. Not just the quality of their code, but their
overall understanding of the project, and their general mindset too. It
was just me at the time, so I was the one that had to be comfortable
with their abilities. Now, any new committer would have to be judged by
all of us.
This, by the way, is one place where I don't really think the community
should have much say. Oh, I think the community should be able to
perhaps nominate someone, either explicitly or just by virtue of that
person being highly-regarded. But, the existing committers have to be
comfortable with the person, and that decision shouldn't be left to the
community I think. I think the typical attitude is "we will invite
those that we feel deserve it", and I think that's as it should be.
> Memo to the menfolk: if your womanfolk asks you "would you love me any
> less if I got fat" do NOT, I repeat do NOT reply with "How could I love
> you any less?"
HAHAHAH!! Thanks Dave, that made my Friday!
> Dave
Frank
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Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Dave Newton <ne...@pingsite.com>.
Frank W. Zammetti wrote:
> If someone says to you "the sky is purple", and totally believes it
> themselves, but you believe it isn't true yet you say nothing, aren't you
> on an intellectual level lying?
No, you're just not saying anything.
Being agnostic-tending-towards-atheistic if I go to a Christian church
and somebody tells me there is a god am I "intellectually lying" if I
don't enter into a debate about it?
_I_ don't think so; I think I'm being polite and non-confrontational.
Disagreement does not demand confrontation, it simply invites it, and
the nature of the confrontation can vary wildly (for instance, if
somebody is telling me that the Holocaust didn't happen in a hostile
tone that person is extremely likely to become injured and I am
extremely likely to be happy that years of practice finally got used :)
But if somebody tells me JSF is the shit, even if I question their
motives, I'd probably just say "Oh, why's that?", evaluate the response,
perhaps offer a similar or differing opinion, drink a few beers, and
move on.
> My feeling is that if you see something that you don't agree with that you
> think can be made better, you have an obligation to speak up and try. You
> may fail miserably, but again, inaction is worse than being wrong IMO.
>
I just don't see it that way; that's all. I do not have an obligation to
fix (or try to fix) everything I think can be made better. There is
_too_much_that_needs_fixing_ and the overwhelming guilt I would feel at
my inevitable failure would be unbearable. The world is an imperfect
place and will remain that way despite any effort on my part. Does this
mean I am completely inactive? Of course not. But I must pick my battles
wisely.
I might make a suggestion about somebody's code style here and there, I
might try to introduce ideas into a framework. If they are rejected and
I feel strongly enough about it I'll fork. If I feel it's important but
not enough to fork then I'll modify my own local version. If it's not
that important I'll drop some utility classes on top of it. If it's not
even that important I'll do it some other way.
> Your absolutely right about that. But clearly, being part of the mainline
> code is a better opportunity to get your ideas to the masses than doing
> something on your own, and hence it can be frustrating to not be able to
> do that.
Yeah.
I've had a number of things I'd like to fix in Microsoft Windows and the
US government yet I am rarely approached to contribute my ideas, and my
own approaches have been strangely ignored (I think making solar thermal
heating systems on new buildings, at the very least commercial ones,
mandatory is about the most sensible idea I've ever had but it hasn't
happened yet :(
> I understand that, and really have no basic problem with it. They have
> earned that right of refusal, without question. All I'm saying is there
> is a barrier for someone outside the circle to get code in the mainline,
> as you say, that a committer doesn't have (not to the same extent
> anyway... other committers could veto of course), and this can be
> frustrating. Is it wrong that it works this way? No. Can it be
> frustating? Yes. That's all I'm saying :)
>
No question that life can be frustrating sometimes, especially when it
involves computers, and doubly-so when it involves people too ;)
> Your right, it does. :) But it also kind of proves mine... if my original
> AjaxTags had been accepted and were now part of Struts, would they be more
> popular now? I suspect they would. Much more importantly though, would
> it have helped the community more? Again, I suspec the answer is yes.
> Again, this isn't sour grapes... however I may have felt a year ago I
> don't feel now, I'm fine with how things turned out.
>
So I guess it's a good thing they weren't "taken in to the fold?" ;)
But seriously... if you wanted AjaxTags to get exposure then limiting
yourself to the Struts newsgroup (which is the only place I ever saw
anything about it) probably isn't the best way to go about it. Guerrilla
Marketing! If beating your head against one wall doesn't work, beat it
against another... and another... until you stop leaving little spoogy
red marks! :D
>> One of the few times where I'll disagree out loud with you ;)
>>
> What were the other times, silent protest?!? :-) LOL
>
I don't feel obligated to open my mouth every time I disagree with
someone ;)
> And I think you have the right attitude. But can you really say that,
> from a technical standpoint, you don't expect that a committer knows what
> they're talking about?
I keep my hopes high and my expectations low ;)
> Certainly that should be one prerequisite for
> being a committer on *any* project, shouldn't it?
"Should" implies a level of obligation I am uncomfortable with in this
context.
(One of my more irritating catch-phrases that my friends really wish I
wouldn't say any more ;)
I _hope_ that anybody contributing code to a project is a good
programmer and hopefully a good designer.
> And from the
> perspective of the majority of the general developer community, isn't it
> fair to think that when they ask how to do something, and a committer
> responds, that the response they get is viewed as more "authoritative"
> than if you or I answer?
>
That I don't know... I'd have to think about that. I certainly hope
nobody views any of my answers as authoritative, _that_ much I'm sure of
;) Having seen my code... I can pretty safely say I should _never_
answer any questions!
> Again, I think that's the right attitude to have. But when your weighing
> an opinion, as you necessarily do subconsciously, do you think that Ted
> for instance knows more about Struts than me? I can tell you that *I*
> think he does! :) Therefore, when I'm looking for a question to be
> answered, a *technical* question, his answer means more than my own, and
> it should!
>
Most questions are "API-type" questions. By this I mean it an issue of
RTFM. In those cases I don't really put much more weight on one person's
answer or another, I guess, but that's also because I can RTFM as well
as anybody.
The whole JSF vs. Action stuff is both technical and philosophical. I
still find I "think" better with the Action stuff, although that might
change at some point, and maybe it _should_ change.
The whole "what are we even disagreeing about in this thread" is even
less technical and more philosophical and then all bets are off on whose
opinions matter to me (mostly nobodies at this point ;)
> Your probably right about that, but it kind of started out as a
> non-technical debate in the first place :) I'm not so sure it devolved at
> all, rather it just continued as it started!
>
"How could this thread get any more boring?"
Memo to the menfolk: if your womanfolk asks you "would you love me any
less if I got fat" do NOT, I repeat do NOT reply with "How could I love
you any less?"
Dave
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Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Dakota Jack <da...@gmail.com>.
Gerald, did you read this citation? Here is what it says, among other
things.
All MVC frameworks basically operate within the same 5 phases:
1. *Decode* Interpreting state/parameters passed from the client
2. *Validate* This involves validating the information decoded and
possibly authorization/authentication
3. *Update* Once the submitted information is validated, update the
Java model
4. *Invoke* Some controller behavior is handled here, such as an
action once state is applied from the update phase.
5. *Encode* Rendering the result of the action invocation and model
state back to the client
This is so wrong. Do you really think that the first thing that is done is
to decode state/parameters when you have a .do? If so, you don't even know
how Struts works.
On 3/17/06, Steve Raeburn <sr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Michael,
>
> You have really got to learn to read. Anyway, here's another idea
> that'll put you in a tizzy
> http://weblogs.java.net/blog/jhook/archive/2006/03/the_new_servlet_1.html
>
> Steve
>
> Dakota Jack wrote:
> > Good god, Steve. You think that the very idea that a JSF
> > implementation could become Struts 2.0 is not a huge proof that
> > everything you just said is not goofy? Maybe we could suggest that
> > Java become C?
> >
> > On 3/17/06, Steve Raeburn <sr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Frank W. Zammetti wrote:
> >>
> >>> I was *going* to say that the difference is that when the project
> >>> started it was me and me alone, and that isn't the case any more.
> >>> There are two other committers, and we have project bylaws that
> >>> effectively gives them the ability to do things even if I 100%
> >>> disagree. I started out with complete control, and right now I
> >>> essentially have none, and I must follow the will of the leadership.
> >>> Ultimately, we are accountable to the community insofar as if we do a
> >>> bad job, there will be *no* community :)
> >>>
> >> And that's *exactly* how the Struts project works. It was started by
> one
> >> person, then a few more joined and now they collectively make
> decisions.
> >> Even if the founder of the project disagrees.
> >>
> >> Some people seem to look at Shale being part of the Struts project as a
> >> sign that one person controls the project and always gets his own way.
> >> In fact, that is the complete opposite of the truth. That Shale is now
> a
> >> Struts sub-project was a result of a disagreement between committers
> >> over the future of Struts and what should become Struts 2.0. IMHO that
> >> disagreement was handled in a very mature, thoughtful way which
> resulted
> >> in Shale becoming a subproject and a peer to Struts Action, rather than
> >> replacing it. The jury's still out on which will become more widely
> >> used, but that's not really the point. Both can happily co-exist here
> >> and one does not have to fail for the other to succeed.
> >>
> >> So, there *is* healthy disagreement, non-committers *are* listened to
> >> during the discussion and then a decision is made and we move on.
> >> Sometimes ;-)
> >>
> >> Steve
> >>
> >>
> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> >> For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > --
> > "You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its
> back."
> > ~Dakota Jack~
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
> >
> >
> >
>
>
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>
>
--
"You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back."
~Dakota Jack~
Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by "Frank W. Zammetti" <fz...@omnytex.com>.
Steve Raeburn wrote:
> Some people seem to look at Shale being part of the Struts project as a
> sign that one person controls the project and always gets his own way.
> In fact, that is the complete opposite of the truth. That Shale is now a
> Struts sub-project was a result of a disagreement between committers
> over the future of Struts and what should become Struts 2.0. IMHO that
> disagreement was handled in a very mature, thoughtful way which resulted
> in Shale becoming a subproject and a peer to Struts Action, rather than
> replacing it. The jury's still out on which will become more widely
> used, but that's not really the point. Both can happily co-exist here
> and one does not have to fail for the other to succeed.
I think for me I had a problem with Shale under the Struts umbrella when
Shale was being considered as the next Struts. The problem arose for me
because at the same time you had a couple of other potential "next
Struts", and it made the whole project look directionless.
This is a big part of where I was coming from with my whole diatribe on
responsibility to the community... I think for a while things were, or
at least could be perceived to be, disjointed, confusing and potentially
anxiety-producing for many people. It is no longer any of those things
as far as I can see. For me, this was rectified a few months ago, and I
sincerely compliment the PMC for it.
I don't have a big problem with Shale where it is now... I'm not sure
it's the perfect place, I think if I had my druthers it would be on its
own, but I don't see it as being some egregious decision where it is
now. I even think some of the stated reasons for it make sense.
In short, that part of this thread is someone else' fight, not mine :)
> So, there *is* healthy disagreement, non-committers *are* listened to
> during the discussion and then a decision is made and we move on.
> Sometimes ;-)
That's cool! Thanks for the insight Steve!
> Steve
Frank
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Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Steve Raeburn <sr...@gmail.com>.
Michael,
You have really got to learn to read. Anyway, here's another idea
that'll put you in a tizzy
http://weblogs.java.net/blog/jhook/archive/2006/03/the_new_servlet_1.html
Steve
Dakota Jack wrote:
> Good god, Steve. You think that the very idea that a JSF
> implementation could become Struts 2.0 is not a huge proof that
> everything you just said is not goofy? Maybe we could suggest that
> Java become C?
>
> On 3/17/06, Steve Raeburn <sr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Frank W. Zammetti wrote:
>>
>>> I was *going* to say that the difference is that when the project
>>> started it was me and me alone, and that isn't the case any more.
>>> There are two other committers, and we have project bylaws that
>>> effectively gives them the ability to do things even if I 100%
>>> disagree. I started out with complete control, and right now I
>>> essentially have none, and I must follow the will of the leadership.
>>> Ultimately, we are accountable to the community insofar as if we do a
>>> bad job, there will be *no* community :)
>>>
>> And that's *exactly* how the Struts project works. It was started by one
>> person, then a few more joined and now they collectively make decisions.
>> Even if the founder of the project disagrees.
>>
>> Some people seem to look at Shale being part of the Struts project as a
>> sign that one person controls the project and always gets his own way.
>> In fact, that is the complete opposite of the truth. That Shale is now a
>> Struts sub-project was a result of a disagreement between committers
>> over the future of Struts and what should become Struts 2.0. IMHO that
>> disagreement was handled in a very mature, thoughtful way which resulted
>> in Shale becoming a subproject and a peer to Struts Action, rather than
>> replacing it. The jury's still out on which will become more widely
>> used, but that's not really the point. Both can happily co-exist here
>> and one does not have to fail for the other to succeed.
>>
>> So, there *is* healthy disagreement, non-committers *are* listened to
>> during the discussion and then a decision is made and we move on.
>> Sometimes ;-)
>>
>> Steve
>>
>>
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>>
>
>
> --
> "You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back."
> ~Dakota Jack~
>
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Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Dakota Jack <da...@gmail.com>.
Good god, Steve. You think that the very idea that a JSF
implementation could become Struts 2.0 is not a huge proof that
everything you just said is not goofy? Maybe we could suggest that
Java become C?
On 3/17/06, Steve Raeburn <sr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Frank W. Zammetti wrote:
> > I was *going* to say that the difference is that when the project
> > started it was me and me alone, and that isn't the case any more.
> > There are two other committers, and we have project bylaws that
> > effectively gives them the ability to do things even if I 100%
> > disagree. I started out with complete control, and right now I
> > essentially have none, and I must follow the will of the leadership.
> > Ultimately, we are accountable to the community insofar as if we do a
> > bad job, there will be *no* community :)
> And that's *exactly* how the Struts project works. It was started by one
> person, then a few more joined and now they collectively make decisions.
> Even if the founder of the project disagrees.
>
> Some people seem to look at Shale being part of the Struts project as a
> sign that one person controls the project and always gets his own way.
> In fact, that is the complete opposite of the truth. That Shale is now a
> Struts sub-project was a result of a disagreement between committers
> over the future of Struts and what should become Struts 2.0. IMHO that
> disagreement was handled in a very mature, thoughtful way which resulted
> in Shale becoming a subproject and a peer to Struts Action, rather than
> replacing it. The jury's still out on which will become more widely
> used, but that's not really the point. Both can happily co-exist here
> and one does not have to fail for the other to succeed.
>
> So, there *is* healthy disagreement, non-committers *are* listened to
> during the discussion and then a decision is made and we move on.
> Sometimes ;-)
>
> Steve
>
>
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>
--
"You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back."
~Dakota Jack~
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Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Steve Raeburn <sr...@gmail.com>.
Frank W. Zammetti wrote:
> I was *going* to say that the difference is that when the project
> started it was me and me alone, and that isn't the case any more.
> There are two other committers, and we have project bylaws that
> effectively gives them the ability to do things even if I 100%
> disagree. I started out with complete control, and right now I
> essentially have none, and I must follow the will of the leadership.
> Ultimately, we are accountable to the community insofar as if we do a
> bad job, there will be *no* community :)
And that's *exactly* how the Struts project works. It was started by one
person, then a few more joined and now they collectively make decisions.
Even if the founder of the project disagrees.
Some people seem to look at Shale being part of the Struts project as a
sign that one person controls the project and always gets his own way.
In fact, that is the complete opposite of the truth. That Shale is now a
Struts sub-project was a result of a disagreement between committers
over the future of Struts and what should become Struts 2.0. IMHO that
disagreement was handled in a very mature, thoughtful way which resulted
in Shale becoming a subproject and a peer to Struts Action, rather than
replacing it. The jury's still out on which will become more widely
used, but that's not really the point. Both can happily co-exist here
and one does not have to fail for the other to succeed.
So, there *is* healthy disagreement, non-committers *are* listened to
during the discussion and then a decision is made and we move on.
Sometimes ;-)
Steve
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Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by "Frank W. Zammetti" <fz...@omnytex.com>.
Leon Rosenberg wrote:
> Hey Frank,
>
> even I agree with you most of the time (not meaning this thread, but
> more in general) I will play devil's advocate a bit.
> Do you remember how I came to you some time ago and said, hey cool
> project you have, let me contribute my struts extensions to your
> project.
> What was your answer then? :-)
That's a fair point :) I have to be honest with you, I don't remember
the extensions you refer to. I have no doubt it was exactly as you say
though :)
I was *going* to say that the difference is that when the project
started it was me and me alone, and that isn't the case any more. There
are two other committers, and we have project bylaws that effectively
gives them the ability to do things even if I 100% disagree. I started
out with complete control, and right now I essentially have none, and I
must follow the will of the leadership. Ultimately, we are accountable
to the community insofar as if we do a bad job, there will be *no*
community :)
Like I said, I was *going* to say that, but it doesn't really change
your point... all three of us could still reject your extensions :) You
would have to convince the community to convince us we are wrong. So
yes, your 100% right, it's no different.
> This is too struts-dependent, that - too basical and this thing is
> completely out of scope. I'm not complaining, but isn't it the same
> reaction you received from the struts commiters yourself?
Yes :) Your completely right, I have nothing to say :)
> There are always two sides of a medal (at least!) :-)
> regards
Indeed :)
> Leon
Frank
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Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Leon Rosenberg <ro...@googlemail.com>.
Hey Frank,
even I agree with you most of the time (not meaning this thread, but
more in general) I will play devil's advocate a bit.
Do you remember how I came to you some time ago and said, hey cool
project you have, let me contribute my struts extensions to your
project.
What was your answer then? :-)
This is too struts-dependent, that - too basical and this thing is
completely out of scope. I'm not complaining, but isn't it the same
reaction you received from the struts commiters yourself?
There are always two sides of a medal (at least!) :-)
regards
Leon
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Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by "Frank W. Zammetti" <fz...@omnytex.com>.
On Fri, March 17, 2006 2:25 pm, Dave Newton said:
>> Truth is nothing but a feeling that something is true. Therefore, not
>> saying how you feel is tantamount to a lie IMO.
>>
>
> Not at all... Lying implies an intent to deceive. Lying would be saying
> that you believed something that you didn't believe.
If someone says to you "the sky is purple", and totally believes it
themselves, but you believe it isn't true yet you say nothing, aren't you
on an intellectual level lying? There was no intent to deceive on the
other persons part, but by not speaking up, by not confronting something
you believe is not the case, isn't that a form of dishonesty, on an
intellectual level?
I want to make one thing clear, because maybe I haven't thus far... I
don't believe Ted is lying about anything. Not one bit. I absolutely
think be believes what he is saying. I just happen to disagree with some
of it, and have said so, and I believe if I hadn't then I would be guilty
of some form of dishonesty, even if only on an abstract intellectual
level, and even if just with myself.
> Not saying anything is a simple matter of keeping your mouth shut.
My feeling is that if you see something that you don't agree with that you
think can be made better, you have an obligation to speak up and try. You
may fail miserably, but again, inaction is worse than being wrong IMO.
And by the way, we aren't talking about toppling a corrupt government here
:) Nothing nearly that grandiose! We're just talking a disagreement on
philosophy.
> Which I believe is actually against the rules on the internet.
>> *YOUR* trying to share *YOUR* solutions. But if someone else wants to
>> share their solutions, they have to go *through* you. And you don't see
>> why there's frustration?
>>
>
> This simply isn't true. If you want it to be in mainline Apache code,
> it's true. But we live in the open-source world, and you can share
> whatever you want. You could take ALL the Apache code and fork it. You
> can modify chunks of it and distribute that.
> Is that a good idea? Eh, probably not.
Your absolutely right about that. But clearly, being part of the mainline
code is a better opportunity to get your ideas to the masses than doing
something on your own, and hence it can be frustrating to not be able to
do that. I can tell you I've been approached about branching Struts, and
even entertained the thought myself at one point. I quickly decided I
didn't like the idea, and I continue to be against the idea because I
think it would do more harm than good, as you basically say here. But
it's always an option, you right about that.
> It's a fact that committers have a limited amount of time and everything
> that people want included won't be. Sometimes the reasons for not
> including will be valid. Sometimes they'll be capricious.
I understand that, and really have no basic problem with it. They have
earned that right of refusal, without question. All I'm saying is there
is a barrier for someone outside the circle to get code in the mainline,
as you say, that a committer doesn't have (not to the same extent
anyway... other committers could veto of course), and this can be
frustrating. Is it wrong that it works this way? No. Can it be
frustating? Yes. That's all I'm saying :)
> Oh well!
>> Oh, I think I know what you'd say to that... there are alternatives.
>> And
>> your right! That's how Java Web Parts got started. I wanted to share
>> my
>> solutions too, let people decide if they liked them or not, use them if
>> they want or not, and I wasn't allowed to do it here. So, I went
>> elsewhere. And you know, it worked out for the best, so I suppose in
>> the
>> end I should thank you!
>>
>
> Id on't know if you should thank them, but it proves my point.
Your right, it does. :) But it also kind of proves mine... if my original
AjaxTags had been accepted and were now part of Struts, would they be more
popular now? I suspect they would. Much more importantly though, would
it have helped the community more? Again, I suspec the answer is yes.
Again, this isn't sour grapes... however I may have felt a year ago I
don't feel now, I'm fine with how things turned out.
>> And forget all that... let's say I'm completely off-base there... the
>> simple fact is that people in the community look to the committers as
>> subject matter experts, and if you don't understand that, then again,
>> you
>> are really quite blind.
>
> One of the few times where I'll disagree out loud with you ;)
What were the other times, silent protest?!? :-) LOL
> I view commiters as potential experts on the project(s) they commit to.
> This doesn't mean they don't have (or have) personal biases; in fact it
> may _increase_ the amount of bias.
>
> I don't view anything anybody says as authoritative until I digest it,
> perhaps try alternative options, seek out the advice of others, blah
> blah blah. So Ted says this, Craig says that, James says the other,
> Frank says this, Dakota says that.
And I think you have the right attitude. But can you really say that,
from a technical standpoint, you don't expect that a committer knows what
they're talking about? Certainly that should be one prerequisite for
being a committer on *any* project, shouldn't it? And from the
perspective of the majority of the general developer community, isn't it
fair to think that when they ask how to do something, and a committer
responds, that the response they get is viewed as more "authoritative"
than if you or I answer?
> In the end?
>
> What does _Dave_ think? I'm smart and open enough to take it all in and
> come up with something on my own. It might be a clone of what somebody
> else thought. It might be a bastardized hybrid solution (most typical;
> frameworks often give me hives ;) It might be something completely
> stupid that I end up using because it's done and works, even though I
> might have to refactor it out later.
Again, I think that's the right attitude to have. But when your weighing
an opinion, as you necessarily do subconsciously, do you think that Ted
for instance knows more about Struts than me? I can tell you that *I*
think he does! :) Therefore, when I'm looking for a question to be
answered, a *technical* question, his answer means more than my own, and
it should!
> I'm babbling, but the bottom line is that I determine
> "authoritativeness" based on several criteria, most of which don't have
> anything to do with letters after somebody's name or the fact that
> they're on a board, committee, or have repository access :)
Not babbling at all :)
>> And if you don't think that infers a certain
>> degree of responsibility, then we really do have nothing further to talk
>> about.
>>
>
> That doesn't make any sense to me. You can have a philosophical
> disagreement with somebody and choose to ignore that portion of debate,
> but it doesn't remove the technological aspects.
Interestingly, this entire thread has really been about philosophy. I
don't think I've talked about anything technical, not that I recall
anyway.
> Debate on technical merits, fine, but this has really devolved into
> something else, IMNSHO.
Your probably right about that, but it kind of started out as a
non-technical debate in the first place :) I'm not so sure it devolved at
all, rather it just continued as it started!
> I really don't believe it has been disrespectful or construed as such by
> anybody involved.
I'm happy to hear that you feel that way. Like I said, I've made a
conscious effort to not be disrespectful to anyone, but its for others to
judge if I succeeded or not. My desire to be a productive part of this
community, in whatever capacity, has never waivered, and it isn't my goal
to piss off people I might be working with :) Hopefully we can simply
state our thinking, see where we agree and disagree, and go from there.
> Dave
Frank
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Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Dave Newton <ne...@pingsite.com>.
Frank W. Zammetti wrote:
> It is difficult telling unpleasent things to power.
I've always taken perverse pleasure in it, myself, but I'm generally
crabby and irritable :D
> Truth is nothing but a feeling that something is true. Therefore, not
> saying how you feel is tantamount to a lie IMO.
>
Not at all... Lying implies an intent to deceive. Lying would be saying
that you believed something that you didn't believe.
Not saying anything is a simple matter of keeping your mouth shut.
Which I believe is actually against the rules on the internet.
> *YOUR* trying to share *YOUR* solutions. But if someone else wants to
> share their solutions, they have to go *through* you. And you don't see
> why there's frustration?
>
This simply isn't true. If you want it to be in mainline Apache code,
it's true. But we live in the open-source world, and you can share
whatever you want. You could take ALL the Apache code and fork it. You
can modify chunks of it and distribute that.
Is that a good idea? Eh, probably not.
It's a fact that committers have a limited amount of time and everything
that people want included won't be. Sometimes the reasons for not
including will be valid. Sometimes they'll be capricious.
Oh well!
> Oh, I think I know what you'd say to that... there are alternatives. And
> your right! That's how Java Web Parts got started. I wanted to share my
> solutions too, let people decide if they liked them or not, use them if
> they want or not, and I wasn't allowed to do it here. So, I went
> elsewhere. And you know, it worked out for the best, so I suppose in the
> end I should thank you!
>
Id on't know if you should thank them, but it proves my point.
> You are in a unique position, and if you don't see that then you are
> blind. And you aren't an expert committee? Then why write books telling
> us what Struts "best practices" are? Why write articles telling us how
> things "should" be done in Struts? Unless they start out with something
> like "here's how I do things, and it seems to work pretty well, but
> whatever", then you in fact ARE an expert committe, perhaps of one but
> still, trying to tell everyone what they should be doing. It's still your
> opinion in the end, but it is viewed as authoritative, and therefore
> carries more weight. This implies responsibility.
>
> And forget all that... let's say I'm completely off-base there... the
> simple fact is that people in the community look to the committers as
> subject matter experts, and if you don't understand that, then again, you
> are really quite blind.
One of the few times where I'll disagree out loud with you ;)
I view commiters as potential experts on the project(s) they commit to.
This doesn't mean they don't have (or have) personal biases; in fact it
may _increase_ the amount of bias.
I don't view anything anybody says as authoritative until I digest it,
perhaps try alternative options, seek out the advice of others, blah
blah blah. So Ted says this, Craig says that, James says the other,
Frank says this, Dakota says that.
In the end?
What does _Dave_ think? I'm smart and open enough to take it all in and
come up with something on my own. It might be a clone of what somebody
else thought. It might be a bastardized hybrid solution (most typical;
frameworks often give me hives ;) It might be something completely
stupid that I end up using because it's done and works, even though I
might have to refactor it out later.
I'm babbling, but the bottom line is that I determine
"authoritativeness" based on several criteria, most of which don't have
anything to do with letters after somebody's name or the fact that
they're on a board, committee, or have repository access :)
> And if you don't think that infers a certain
> degree of responsibility, then we really do have nothing further to talk
> about.
>
That doesn't make any sense to me. You can have a philosophical
disagreement with somebody and choose to ignore that portion of debate,
but it doesn't remove the technological aspects.
> Why is it that in your mind, "troll" equates to someone
> that holds a different opinion than you?
>
I honestly don't think he does (and I apologize for speaking for
somebody else).
I just don't think it's a useful debate.
Debate on technical merits, fine, but this has really devolved into
something else, IMNSHO.
> I can only hope that disagreement is not construed as disrespect by you, or anyone
> else.
>
I really don't believe it has been disrespectful or construed as such by
anybody involved.
Dave
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Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Dakota Jack <da...@gmail.com>.
I thought Raeburn was Canadian, rather than American, and so would not
think legal liability and personal responsibility were the same thing.
I like Ted's theory better: "I'm Ted, you aren't: stop complainin'".
Actually, I like you all but this is sure a funny list.
<wow>
On 3/17/06, Steve Raeburn <sr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Regarding responsibility accepted by the committers, let me refer you to
> the Apache License:
>
> 7. Disclaimer of Warranty. Unless required by applicable law or agreed
> to in writing, Licensor provides the Work (and each Contributor provides
> its Contributions) on an "AS IS" BASIS, WITHOUT WARRANTIES OR CONDITIONS
> OF ANY KIND, either express or implied, including, without limitation,
> any warranties or conditions of TITLE, NON-INFRINGEMENT,
> MERCHANTABILITY, or FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE. You are solely
> responsible for determining the appropriateness of using or
> redistributing the Work and assume any risks associated with Your
> exercise of permissions under this License.
>
</wow>
--
"You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back."
~Dakota Jack~
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Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Dakota Jack <da...@gmail.com>.
I wonder, Ted, how it sounds to you when someone else says it too?
On 3/17/06, Michael Jouravlev <jm...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 3/17/06, Frank W. Zammetti <fz...@omnytex.com> wrote:
> > the simple fact is that people in the community look to the committers as
> > subject matter experts, and if you don't understand that, then again, you
> > are really quite blind. And if you don't think that infers a certain
> > degree of responsibility, then we really do have nothing further to talk
> > about.
>
> It was us who came to their sandbox. They share their toys, how nice
> of them. You might want to share your toy too, but don't get sad if
> other kids don't like it. Community is bullshit. If [methaforical] you
> don't like this sandbox, get yours and play there. Oh,
> [non-methaforical] you already got one. I got one too. Let's measure
> who's larger :)
>
> > Again, I go back to my neighborhood analogy...
>
> F#ck the neighborhood. As long as [methaforical] they don't come to my
> house with blowtorches and pitchforks I don't care about their
> existence or their leadership. I need no shepherd. I get brainwashed
> like everyone else, but I like to pretend that my thinking process is
> fully independent ;) Need no gods.
>
> Michael.
>
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>
--
"You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back."
~Dakota Jack~
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Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Michael Jouravlev <jm...@gmail.com>.
On 3/17/06, Frank W. Zammetti <fz...@omnytex.com> wrote:
> the simple fact is that people in the community look to the committers as
> subject matter experts, and if you don't understand that, then again, you
> are really quite blind. And if you don't think that infers a certain
> degree of responsibility, then we really do have nothing further to talk
> about.
It was us who came to their sandbox. They share their toys, how nice
of them. You might want to share your toy too, but don't get sad if
other kids don't like it. Community is bullshit. If [methaforical] you
don't like this sandbox, get yours and play there. Oh,
[non-methaforical] you already got one. I got one too. Let's measure
who's larger :)
> Again, I go back to my neighborhood analogy...
F#ck the neighborhood. As long as [methaforical] they don't come to my
house with blowtorches and pitchforks I don't care about their
existence or their leadership. I need no shepherd. I get brainwashed
like everyone else, but I like to pretend that my thinking process is
fully independent ;) Need no gods.
Michael.
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Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Dakota Jack <da...@gmail.com>.
Sorry, Steve, they are elected. And, as such, they have an official
position: the position is called "committer". As they say, "I couldn't
spell, but now I are one". Remember, you are one: elected and having the
official title and power. So you all are elected officials so far as I can
see.
But, hey, you "committers" are like Popes, ten thousand times as big as us,
always hanging out windows and wavying, scaring your moms to death, and so
we wouldn't have a clue about what an elected official is or is not by
"pronouncement". We have to think it through and there is where we get into
trouble. You just say it: "... committers are not elected officials..." and
our job is to believe it.
Sometimes the level of thinking around here is numbing, dizzying. If a
person that is elected to an official position is not an elected official,
who is?
<wah>
On 3/17/06, Steve Raeburn <sr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> This might be getting to the heart of why we see the responsibilities
> differently. The committers are not elected officials. They represent
> only themselves, and sometimes their companies.
</wah>
--
"You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back."
~Dakota Jack~
Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Dakota Jack <da...@gmail.com>.
Yes, but thank god that the elected committers who are not elected officials
have absolutely no responsibility and that the descent of Struts theory
somehow will save the day?
On 3/18/06, Alexandre Poitras <al...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I think struts has reached Slashdot status. There are so many
> religious war lately.
>
> On 3/18/06, Mark Lowe <me...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On 3/18/06, Paul Benedict <pa...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > >> Ted's central principle that "darwin decides"
> > >
> > > This is a false principle in the terms of software development.
> > > You don't have blind forces assembling the source code of Struts,
> > > but real living people who can see what people want and choose
> > > to write a solution for it. People decide in ASF, not Darwin.
> > > If the Commiters want Struts to succeed into the future, they need
> > > to always have passion and dedication to keep up with the demands
> > > of the MVC market. Any philosophy which reduces Struts to "a gaggle of
> > > engineers", I think, is a reductionist viewpoint; the problem is
> > > much bigger than engineers just wanting to solve problems. That's
> > > why other ASF projects like Tomcat and Tapestry are big winners and
> > > continue to be big winners: a passion to to be successful with
> > > whatever they craft, and a desire to see their projects be the best
> > > at what they are in the industry. I totally see this passion in
> Craig's
> > > work - let's transfer some of that energy into Struts Action
> Framework...
> > > and it's finally happening (again) with WW2.
> >
> > I can see some of the limitations of applying darwinian selection, but
> > at the end of the day if one asks why some things last and others
> > don't I don't think that success can only be a function of the talents
> > and passion of a group of engineers. I'm not saying every one involved
> > isn't talented and passionate. But if these "products" didn't have a
> > use/application and at least some people were using them with success
> > then they wouldn't survive.
> >
> > Tomcat is perhaps a little different in that its a reference
> > implementation its survival and usefulness is potentially broader.
> >
> > I totally agree that there are some great ideas, shale gives you all
> > the struts toys with any jsf implementation. Likewise traditional
> > struts (action) is full of goodness, and we find ourselves on the user
> > list for one motive or another. But if lots of products using these
> > frameworks started costing too much to develop, maintain etc then
> > they'd be less likely to survive.
> >
> > Thats not the same as saying that these products are created out of a
> > blind passionless, talentless process. And I agree that the proximal
> > causation for the success of such endevours can be attributed to
> > these, but then betamax lost and vhs won. there are more wintel
> > machines than macs. evolution isn't perfect its good enough.
> >
> > Mark
> >
> > >
> > > Paul
> > >
> > > --- Mark Lowe <me...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > I've stayed out of this silly thread up until now, but i guess its
> > > > time to be silly as well..
> > > >
> > > > Now I imagine that I'll get burned by micheal o'grady (dakota jack)
> > > > for quoting this, but Ted's central principle that "darwin decides"
> is
> > > > a sound one. Its sound because it's also a principle that doesn't
> > > > state that struts or anything is good because its better or because
> he
> > > > influenced a group of people to act in a certain way, but because a
> > > > technology survives the ecological pressures of the economy and
> > > > projects that adopt such a approach remain profitable.
> > > >
> > > > Now natural selection doesn't produce perfection, even in biology,
> but
> > > > what you can be sure if is that any organism that lives today has
> been
> > > > begat by organisms that have survived "well enough". If best
> technical
> > > > solutions always won then betamax would have won the video wars.
> > > >
> > > > While struts is adopted and projects survive the ecological
> pressures
> > > > of engineering and economics it will probably survive. If a
> different
> > > > technoloy is adopted by other folk and they can knock out projects
> for
> > > > less then they will "probably" outlive struts or at least have a
> > > > better chance.
> > > >
> > > > But all these abstract principles of perfection serve very little.
> > > > From a darwinian perspective a ford motor car is more successful
> than
> > > > a ferrari. Now my understanding of the apache development that if
> > > > solutions (commits, patches etc) are best when they are real world
> > > > solutions, by facilitating these "adaptations" software is more
> likey
> > > > to survive ecological pressures because the adaptations are in
> direct
> > > > response to the enviornment in which these products find themselves.
> > > >
> > > > The other important factor to have a healthy ecosystem that there is
> > > > never a single organism/technology that covers all niches. Its also
> > > > true that in a single ecosystem there are never two organisms that
> > > > occupy the same niche for very long. This is nature, and I don't see
> > > > the human activity of software development being very different.
> > > >
> > > > I could carry on, but I wont.. What the main point is that it
> doesn't
> > > > really matter what anyone thinks of this and that. What will survive
> > > > will survive (excuse the tautology). Ferrari survives as does ford
> > > > (albeit from selling the financial products to buy their goods) they
> > > > occupy different niches. In the case of betamax and vhs only one
> > > > survived because they occupy the same niche. All any of us can do is
> > > > try and knock out projects as best and as cheaply as possible, and
> > > > darwin will decide the rest. Central to a good ecosystem is
> diversity.
> > > >
> > > > Mark
> > > >
> > > > On 3/18/06, Steve Raeburn <sr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > I think the flaw in my analogy is that nobody will starve if they
> choose
> > > > > not to eat at the Struts shelter :-)
> > > > >
> > > > > Steve
> > > > >
> > > > > Frank W. Zammetti wrote:
> > > > > > Steve Raeburn wrote:
> > > > > >> Let me try another analogy. Let's say you go down to volunteer
> at a
> > > > > >> homeless shelter. You serve a few meals and wipe a few tables a
> > > > > >> couple of times a month. Do you become bound by any
> responsibility
> > > > > >> other than to show up and help? Do you become responsible for
> solving
> > > > > >> the homeless problem? Should you feel obligated to give someone
> a
> > > > > >> bed? Some people may feel they do have such a responsibility.
> Others
> > > > > >> won't. It's not my place to criticize a volunteer for not
> taking on
> > > > > >> those additional responsibilities. I am just grateful that
> you've
> > > > > >> just done a little bit to help out.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > That's a good analogy, it took me a while to figure out why it
> wasn't
> > > > > > right for me with my position in mind (you had me doubting
> myself for
> > > > > > a few hours before it hit me!)...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > If the volunteer does as you say, then I would agree, there
> isn't any
> > > > > > added/assumed responsibility. One would hope they have their
> own
> > > > > > sense of responsibility and treat the homeless people kindly,
> but
> > > > > > that's about it.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > However... if the volunteer does good work and is consequently
> asked
> > > > > > to become a permanent volunteer by an existing group of
> permanent
> > > > > > volunteers, and as a result is given some degree of authority to
> make
> > > > > > decisions that will affect those that come to the shelter, then
> I
> > > > > > think there is definitely a higher level of responsibility to
> that
> > > > > > "community" of homeless, as well of course to the other
> permanent
> > > > > > volunteers. Again, as I've said all along, the degree of extra
> > > > > > responsibility I think is debatable.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > In your original analogy, the volunteer would be someone like
> me. In
> > > > > > my modified version, they would be a committer. At least in my
> eyes,
> > > > > > there is a difference.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Excellent analogy though, you definitely made me think and
> evaluate my
> > > > > > position, I appreciate that! :)
> > > > > >
> > > > > >> Steve
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Frank
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> > > > > > For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> > > > > For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> > > > For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > __________________________________________________
> > > Do You Yahoo!?
> > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> > > http://mail.yahoo.com
> > >
> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> > > For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
> > >
> > >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Alexandre Poitras
> Québec, Canada
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
>
>
--
"You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back."
~Dakota Jack~
Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Alexandre Poitras <al...@gmail.com>.
I think struts has reached Slashdot status. There are so many
religious war lately.
On 3/18/06, Mark Lowe <me...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 3/18/06, Paul Benedict <pa...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > >> Ted's central principle that "darwin decides"
> >
> > This is a false principle in the terms of software development.
> > You don't have blind forces assembling the source code of Struts,
> > but real living people who can see what people want and choose
> > to write a solution for it. People decide in ASF, not Darwin.
> > If the Commiters want Struts to succeed into the future, they need
> > to always have passion and dedication to keep up with the demands
> > of the MVC market. Any philosophy which reduces Struts to "a gaggle of
> > engineers", I think, is a reductionist viewpoint; the problem is
> > much bigger than engineers just wanting to solve problems. That's
> > why other ASF projects like Tomcat and Tapestry are big winners and
> > continue to be big winners: a passion to to be successful with
> > whatever they craft, and a desire to see their projects be the best
> > at what they are in the industry. I totally see this passion in Craig's
> > work - let's transfer some of that energy into Struts Action Framework...
> > and it's finally happening (again) with WW2.
>
> I can see some of the limitations of applying darwinian selection, but
> at the end of the day if one asks why some things last and others
> don't I don't think that success can only be a function of the talents
> and passion of a group of engineers. I'm not saying every one involved
> isn't talented and passionate. But if these "products" didn't have a
> use/application and at least some people were using them with success
> then they wouldn't survive.
>
> Tomcat is perhaps a little different in that its a reference
> implementation its survival and usefulness is potentially broader.
>
> I totally agree that there are some great ideas, shale gives you all
> the struts toys with any jsf implementation. Likewise traditional
> struts (action) is full of goodness, and we find ourselves on the user
> list for one motive or another. But if lots of products using these
> frameworks started costing too much to develop, maintain etc then
> they'd be less likely to survive.
>
> Thats not the same as saying that these products are created out of a
> blind passionless, talentless process. And I agree that the proximal
> causation for the success of such endevours can be attributed to
> these, but then betamax lost and vhs won. there are more wintel
> machines than macs. evolution isn't perfect its good enough.
>
> Mark
>
> >
> > Paul
> >
> > --- Mark Lowe <me...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > I've stayed out of this silly thread up until now, but i guess its
> > > time to be silly as well..
> > >
> > > Now I imagine that I'll get burned by micheal o'grady (dakota jack)
> > > for quoting this, but Ted's central principle that "darwin decides" is
> > > a sound one. Its sound because it's also a principle that doesn't
> > > state that struts or anything is good because its better or because he
> > > influenced a group of people to act in a certain way, but because a
> > > technology survives the ecological pressures of the economy and
> > > projects that adopt such a approach remain profitable.
> > >
> > > Now natural selection doesn't produce perfection, even in biology, but
> > > what you can be sure if is that any organism that lives today has been
> > > begat by organisms that have survived "well enough". If best technical
> > > solutions always won then betamax would have won the video wars.
> > >
> > > While struts is adopted and projects survive the ecological pressures
> > > of engineering and economics it will probably survive. If a different
> > > technoloy is adopted by other folk and they can knock out projects for
> > > less then they will "probably" outlive struts or at least have a
> > > better chance.
> > >
> > > But all these abstract principles of perfection serve very little.
> > > From a darwinian perspective a ford motor car is more successful than
> > > a ferrari. Now my understanding of the apache development that if
> > > solutions (commits, patches etc) are best when they are real world
> > > solutions, by facilitating these "adaptations" software is more likey
> > > to survive ecological pressures because the adaptations are in direct
> > > response to the enviornment in which these products find themselves.
> > >
> > > The other important factor to have a healthy ecosystem that there is
> > > never a single organism/technology that covers all niches. Its also
> > > true that in a single ecosystem there are never two organisms that
> > > occupy the same niche for very long. This is nature, and I don't see
> > > the human activity of software development being very different.
> > >
> > > I could carry on, but I wont.. What the main point is that it doesn't
> > > really matter what anyone thinks of this and that. What will survive
> > > will survive (excuse the tautology). Ferrari survives as does ford
> > > (albeit from selling the financial products to buy their goods) they
> > > occupy different niches. In the case of betamax and vhs only one
> > > survived because they occupy the same niche. All any of us can do is
> > > try and knock out projects as best and as cheaply as possible, and
> > > darwin will decide the rest. Central to a good ecosystem is diversity.
> > >
> > > Mark
> > >
> > > On 3/18/06, Steve Raeburn <sr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > I think the flaw in my analogy is that nobody will starve if they choose
> > > > not to eat at the Struts shelter :-)
> > > >
> > > > Steve
> > > >
> > > > Frank W. Zammetti wrote:
> > > > > Steve Raeburn wrote:
> > > > >> Let me try another analogy. Let's say you go down to volunteer at a
> > > > >> homeless shelter. You serve a few meals and wipe a few tables a
> > > > >> couple of times a month. Do you become bound by any responsibility
> > > > >> other than to show up and help? Do you become responsible for solving
> > > > >> the homeless problem? Should you feel obligated to give someone a
> > > > >> bed? Some people may feel they do have such a responsibility. Others
> > > > >> won't. It's not my place to criticize a volunteer for not taking on
> > > > >> those additional responsibilities. I am just grateful that you've
> > > > >> just done a little bit to help out.
> > > > >
> > > > > That's a good analogy, it took me a while to figure out why it wasn't
> > > > > right for me with my position in mind (you had me doubting myself for
> > > > > a few hours before it hit me!)...
> > > > >
> > > > > If the volunteer does as you say, then I would agree, there isn't any
> > > > > added/assumed responsibility. One would hope they have their own
> > > > > sense of responsibility and treat the homeless people kindly, but
> > > > > that's about it.
> > > > >
> > > > > However... if the volunteer does good work and is consequently asked
> > > > > to become a permanent volunteer by an existing group of permanent
> > > > > volunteers, and as a result is given some degree of authority to make
> > > > > decisions that will affect those that come to the shelter, then I
> > > > > think there is definitely a higher level of responsibility to that
> > > > > "community" of homeless, as well of course to the other permanent
> > > > > volunteers. Again, as I've said all along, the degree of extra
> > > > > responsibility I think is debatable.
> > > > >
> > > > > In your original analogy, the volunteer would be someone like me. In
> > > > > my modified version, they would be a committer. At least in my eyes,
> > > > > there is a difference.
> > > > >
> > > > > Excellent analogy though, you definitely made me think and evaluate my
> > > > > position, I appreciate that! :)
> > > > >
> > > > >> Steve
> > > > >
> > > > > Frank
> > > > >
> > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> > > > > For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> > > > For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> > > For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> > http://mail.yahoo.com
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
> >
> >
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
>
>
--
Alexandre Poitras
Québec, Canada
---------------------------------------------------------------------
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For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Dakota Jack <da...@gmail.com>.
Good lord, Mark, get off the science. Are you completely lost? This is
about Struts, although the elected committers who are not elected officials
will soon claim that we are as far off the beaten track as you.
On 3/18/06, Mark Lowe <me...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 3/18/06, Paul Benedict <pa...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > >> Ted's central principle that "darwin decides"
> >
> > This is a false principle in the terms of software development.
> > You don't have blind forces assembling the source code of Struts,
> > but real living people who can see what people want and choose
> > to write a solution for it. People decide in ASF, not Darwin.
> > If the Commiters want Struts to succeed into the future, they need
> > to always have passion and dedication to keep up with the demands
> > of the MVC market. Any philosophy which reduces Struts to "a gaggle of
> > engineers", I think, is a reductionist viewpoint; the problem is
> > much bigger than engineers just wanting to solve problems. That's
> > why other ASF projects like Tomcat and Tapestry are big winners and
> > continue to be big winners: a passion to to be successful with
> > whatever they craft, and a desire to see their projects be the best
> > at what they are in the industry. I totally see this passion in Craig's
> > work - let's transfer some of that energy into Struts Action
> Framework...
> > and it's finally happening (again) with WW2.
>
> I can see some of the limitations of applying darwinian selection, but
> at the end of the day if one asks why some things last and others
> don't I don't think that success can only be a function of the talents
> and passion of a group of engineers. I'm not saying every one involved
> isn't talented and passionate. But if these "products" didn't have a
> use/application and at least some people were using them with success
> then they wouldn't survive.
>
> Tomcat is perhaps a little different in that its a reference
> implementation its survival and usefulness is potentially broader.
>
> I totally agree that there are some great ideas, shale gives you all
> the struts toys with any jsf implementation. Likewise traditional
> struts (action) is full of goodness, and we find ourselves on the user
> list for one motive or another. But if lots of products using these
> frameworks started costing too much to develop, maintain etc then
> they'd be less likely to survive.
>
> Thats not the same as saying that these products are created out of a
> blind passionless, talentless process. And I agree that the proximal
> causation for the success of such endevours can be attributed to
> these, but then betamax lost and vhs won. there are more wintel
> machines than macs. evolution isn't perfect its good enough.
>
> Mark
>
> >
> > Paul
> >
> > --- Mark Lowe <me...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > I've stayed out of this silly thread up until now, but i guess its
> > > time to be silly as well..
> > >
> > > Now I imagine that I'll get burned by micheal o'grady (dakota jack)
> > > for quoting this, but Ted's central principle that "darwin decides" is
> > > a sound one. Its sound because it's also a principle that doesn't
> > > state that struts or anything is good because its better or because he
> > > influenced a group of people to act in a certain way, but because a
> > > technology survives the ecological pressures of the economy and
> > > projects that adopt such a approach remain profitable.
> > >
> > > Now natural selection doesn't produce perfection, even in biology, but
> > > what you can be sure if is that any organism that lives today has been
> > > begat by organisms that have survived "well enough". If best technical
> > > solutions always won then betamax would have won the video wars.
> > >
> > > While struts is adopted and projects survive the ecological pressures
> > > of engineering and economics it will probably survive. If a different
> > > technoloy is adopted by other folk and they can knock out projects for
> > > less then they will "probably" outlive struts or at least have a
> > > better chance.
> > >
> > > But all these abstract principles of perfection serve very little.
> > > From a darwinian perspective a ford motor car is more successful than
> > > a ferrari. Now my understanding of the apache development that if
> > > solutions (commits, patches etc) are best when they are real world
> > > solutions, by facilitating these "adaptations" software is more likey
> > > to survive ecological pressures because the adaptations are in direct
> > > response to the enviornment in which these products find themselves.
> > >
> > > The other important factor to have a healthy ecosystem that there is
> > > never a single organism/technology that covers all niches. Its also
> > > true that in a single ecosystem there are never two organisms that
> > > occupy the same niche for very long. This is nature, and I don't see
> > > the human activity of software development being very different.
> > >
> > > I could carry on, but I wont.. What the main point is that it doesn't
> > > really matter what anyone thinks of this and that. What will survive
> > > will survive (excuse the tautology). Ferrari survives as does ford
> > > (albeit from selling the financial products to buy their goods) they
> > > occupy different niches. In the case of betamax and vhs only one
> > > survived because they occupy the same niche. All any of us can do is
> > > try and knock out projects as best and as cheaply as possible, and
> > > darwin will decide the rest. Central to a good ecosystem is diversity.
> > >
> > > Mark
> > >
> > > On 3/18/06, Steve Raeburn <sr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > I think the flaw in my analogy is that nobody will starve if they
> choose
> > > > not to eat at the Struts shelter :-)
> > > >
> > > > Steve
> > > >
> > > > Frank W. Zammetti wrote:
> > > > > Steve Raeburn wrote:
> > > > >> Let me try another analogy. Let's say you go down to volunteer at
> a
> > > > >> homeless shelter. You serve a few meals and wipe a few tables a
> > > > >> couple of times a month. Do you become bound by any
> responsibility
> > > > >> other than to show up and help? Do you become responsible for
> solving
> > > > >> the homeless problem? Should you feel obligated to give someone a
> > > > >> bed? Some people may feel they do have such a responsibility.
> Others
> > > > >> won't. It's not my place to criticize a volunteer for not taking
> on
> > > > >> those additional responsibilities. I am just grateful that you've
> > > > >> just done a little bit to help out.
> > > > >
> > > > > That's a good analogy, it took me a while to figure out why it
> wasn't
> > > > > right for me with my position in mind (you had me doubting myself
> for
> > > > > a few hours before it hit me!)...
> > > > >
> > > > > If the volunteer does as you say, then I would agree, there isn't
> any
> > > > > added/assumed responsibility. One would hope they have their own
> > > > > sense of responsibility and treat the homeless people kindly, but
> > > > > that's about it.
> > > > >
> > > > > However... if the volunteer does good work and is consequently
> asked
> > > > > to become a permanent volunteer by an existing group of permanent
> > > > > volunteers, and as a result is given some degree of authority to
> make
> > > > > decisions that will affect those that come to the shelter, then I
> > > > > think there is definitely a higher level of responsibility to that
> > > > > "community" of homeless, as well of course to the other permanent
> > > > > volunteers. Again, as I've said all along, the degree of extra
> > > > > responsibility I think is debatable.
> > > > >
> > > > > In your original analogy, the volunteer would be someone like
> me. In
> > > > > my modified version, they would be a committer. At least in my
> eyes,
> > > > > there is a difference.
> > > > >
> > > > > Excellent analogy though, you definitely made me think and
> evaluate my
> > > > > position, I appreciate that! :)
> > > > >
> > > > >> Steve
> > > > >
> > > > > Frank
> > > > >
> > > > >
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> > > > > For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> > > > For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> > > For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> > http://mail.yahoo.com
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
> >
> >
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
>
>
--
"You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back."
~Dakota Jack~
Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Mark Lowe <me...@gmail.com>.
On 3/20/06, Craig McClanahan <cr...@apache.org> wrote:
> On 3/18/06, Mark Lowe <me...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Tomcat is perhaps a little different in that its a reference
> > implementation its survival and usefulness is potentially broader.
>
>
> Having been heavily involved in the development of Tomcat (the Catalina
> servlet container in Tomcat 4.x and later was basically my original design
> for Apache JServ 2.0, but was adopted by the Tomcat community for 4.0), as
> well as Struts, I think I can be a reliable commentator here :-).
>
> * Tomcat didn't succeed becase it was a reference implementation.
> It succeeeded because it did the basic job of being a servlet and
> JSP container better/faster than many implementations at the time,
> and it was available under a business friendly license. It continues
> to be popular because it continues to excell at execution of these
> goals (along with adding very nice configurability and other features
> that go way beyond the spec required functionality). If it was
> "merely" a reference implementation, it would have been ignored
> by the market.
I wasn't suggesting that tomcat was only successful because it was a
reference implementation, that one of its uses that's distinct from
something like struts is that is a reference implementation. I was
just trying to make a point about how the absurd idea that
success/popularity of a given piece of software, framework etc. Is
more likey to be a function of its usefulness and not political
conspiricies as dakota jack would have folk believe.
Mark
>
> * Struts didn't succeed because it was dreamed up by some idiot
> sitting on the beach (although the initial 0.1 version *was* coded
> on a three day weekend at the Oregon coast :-). It succeeded because
> it met real world needs, and continues to be popular because this
> continues
> to be the case, plus the fact that the developers listen to their users
> (which is a blessing and a curse -- it means a strong commitment to
> backwards compatibility, and a corresponding reticence to break
> backwards compatibility willy nilly :-).
>
> I would submit that these two use cases (which happen to be two of the most
> popular Java based downloads across all of Apache) make a pretty good case
> that the Apache development model can work wonders. Throw Ant into the
> equation, for the same sorts of reasons. It's all about consensus among a
> developer community, not about individual opinions on what is technically
> elegant or not. Don't agree? Please show me some Java based projects that
> are more popular. (I don't care if you think their technical design is
> superior or not -- I'm asking about popularity :-).
>
> If you don't like the technology, you're free to offer alternatives.
> Likewise, the Struts developers are free to accept or reject those
> alternatives. That's life. Nothing is stopping you from going out and
> evangelizing an alternative approach -- other than the fact that the world
> at large (a) may not agree with your assessment of technical beauty, (b) may
> not care because they have xxx thousands of lines of Struts code already, or
> (c) may not even bother to pay attention because they can't find any
> developers that know your framework well enough to create and maintain
> applications with.
>
> Technical elegance is, in the big picture, only one factor that leads to
> popularity. You have to execute well on basically *all* of those factors.
> Plus, more often than not, you have to be lucky with your timing. If you
> want to fundamentally change the world, you have a *much* better chance if
> you tackle a problem that has not been solved yet. Building YAWAF (yet
> another web application framework) might be fun and rewarding, but if you're
> starting in 2006 it is unlikely to be market relevant -- no matter how cool
> the architecture is.
>
> Craig
>
>
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Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Craig McClanahan <cr...@apache.org>.
On 3/18/06, Mark Lowe <me...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> Tomcat is perhaps a little different in that its a reference
> implementation its survival and usefulness is potentially broader.
Having been heavily involved in the development of Tomcat (the Catalina
servlet container in Tomcat 4.x and later was basically my original design
for Apache JServ 2.0, but was adopted by the Tomcat community for 4.0), as
well as Struts, I think I can be a reliable commentator here :-).
* Tomcat didn't succeed becase it was a reference implementation.
It succeeeded because it did the basic job of being a servlet and
JSP container better/faster than many implementations at the time,
and it was available under a business friendly license. It continues
to be popular because it continues to excell at execution of these
goals (along with adding very nice configurability and other features
that go way beyond the spec required functionality). If it was
"merely" a reference implementation, it would have been ignored
by the market.
* Struts didn't succeed because it was dreamed up by some idiot
sitting on the beach (although the initial 0.1 version *was* coded
on a three day weekend at the Oregon coast :-). It succeeded because
it met real world needs, and continues to be popular because this
continues
to be the case, plus the fact that the developers listen to their users
(which is a blessing and a curse -- it means a strong commitment to
backwards compatibility, and a corresponding reticence to break
backwards compatibility willy nilly :-).
I would submit that these two use cases (which happen to be two of the most
popular Java based downloads across all of Apache) make a pretty good case
that the Apache development model can work wonders. Throw Ant into the
equation, for the same sorts of reasons. It's all about consensus among a
developer community, not about individual opinions on what is technically
elegant or not. Don't agree? Please show me some Java based projects that
are more popular. (I don't care if you think their technical design is
superior or not -- I'm asking about popularity :-).
If you don't like the technology, you're free to offer alternatives.
Likewise, the Struts developers are free to accept or reject those
alternatives. That's life. Nothing is stopping you from going out and
evangelizing an alternative approach -- other than the fact that the world
at large (a) may not agree with your assessment of technical beauty, (b) may
not care because they have xxx thousands of lines of Struts code already, or
(c) may not even bother to pay attention because they can't find any
developers that know your framework well enough to create and maintain
applications with.
Technical elegance is, in the big picture, only one factor that leads to
popularity. You have to execute well on basically *all* of those factors.
Plus, more often than not, you have to be lucky with your timing. If you
want to fundamentally change the world, you have a *much* better chance if
you tackle a problem that has not been solved yet. Building YAWAF (yet
another web application framework) might be fun and rewarding, but if you're
starting in 2006 it is unlikely to be market relevant -- no matter how cool
the architecture is.
Craig
Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Mark Lowe <me...@gmail.com>.
On 3/18/06, Paul Benedict <pa...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> Ted's central principle that "darwin decides"
>
> This is a false principle in the terms of software development.
> You don't have blind forces assembling the source code of Struts,
> but real living people who can see what people want and choose
> to write a solution for it. People decide in ASF, not Darwin.
> If the Commiters want Struts to succeed into the future, they need
> to always have passion and dedication to keep up with the demands
> of the MVC market. Any philosophy which reduces Struts to "a gaggle of
> engineers", I think, is a reductionist viewpoint; the problem is
> much bigger than engineers just wanting to solve problems. That's
> why other ASF projects like Tomcat and Tapestry are big winners and
> continue to be big winners: a passion to to be successful with
> whatever they craft, and a desire to see their projects be the best
> at what they are in the industry. I totally see this passion in Craig's
> work - let's transfer some of that energy into Struts Action Framework...
> and it's finally happening (again) with WW2.
I can see some of the limitations of applying darwinian selection, but
at the end of the day if one asks why some things last and others
don't I don't think that success can only be a function of the talents
and passion of a group of engineers. I'm not saying every one involved
isn't talented and passionate. But if these "products" didn't have a
use/application and at least some people were using them with success
then they wouldn't survive.
Tomcat is perhaps a little different in that its a reference
implementation its survival and usefulness is potentially broader.
I totally agree that there are some great ideas, shale gives you all
the struts toys with any jsf implementation. Likewise traditional
struts (action) is full of goodness, and we find ourselves on the user
list for one motive or another. But if lots of products using these
frameworks started costing too much to develop, maintain etc then
they'd be less likely to survive.
Thats not the same as saying that these products are created out of a
blind passionless, talentless process. And I agree that the proximal
causation for the success of such endevours can be attributed to
these, but then betamax lost and vhs won. there are more wintel
machines than macs. evolution isn't perfect its good enough.
Mark
>
> Paul
>
> --- Mark Lowe <me...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > I've stayed out of this silly thread up until now, but i guess its
> > time to be silly as well..
> >
> > Now I imagine that I'll get burned by micheal o'grady (dakota jack)
> > for quoting this, but Ted's central principle that "darwin decides" is
> > a sound one. Its sound because it's also a principle that doesn't
> > state that struts or anything is good because its better or because he
> > influenced a group of people to act in a certain way, but because a
> > technology survives the ecological pressures of the economy and
> > projects that adopt such a approach remain profitable.
> >
> > Now natural selection doesn't produce perfection, even in biology, but
> > what you can be sure if is that any organism that lives today has been
> > begat by organisms that have survived "well enough". If best technical
> > solutions always won then betamax would have won the video wars.
> >
> > While struts is adopted and projects survive the ecological pressures
> > of engineering and economics it will probably survive. If a different
> > technoloy is adopted by other folk and they can knock out projects for
> > less then they will "probably" outlive struts or at least have a
> > better chance.
> >
> > But all these abstract principles of perfection serve very little.
> > From a darwinian perspective a ford motor car is more successful than
> > a ferrari. Now my understanding of the apache development that if
> > solutions (commits, patches etc) are best when they are real world
> > solutions, by facilitating these "adaptations" software is more likey
> > to survive ecological pressures because the adaptations are in direct
> > response to the enviornment in which these products find themselves.
> >
> > The other important factor to have a healthy ecosystem that there is
> > never a single organism/technology that covers all niches. Its also
> > true that in a single ecosystem there are never two organisms that
> > occupy the same niche for very long. This is nature, and I don't see
> > the human activity of software development being very different.
> >
> > I could carry on, but I wont.. What the main point is that it doesn't
> > really matter what anyone thinks of this and that. What will survive
> > will survive (excuse the tautology). Ferrari survives as does ford
> > (albeit from selling the financial products to buy their goods) they
> > occupy different niches. In the case of betamax and vhs only one
> > survived because they occupy the same niche. All any of us can do is
> > try and knock out projects as best and as cheaply as possible, and
> > darwin will decide the rest. Central to a good ecosystem is diversity.
> >
> > Mark
> >
> > On 3/18/06, Steve Raeburn <sr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > I think the flaw in my analogy is that nobody will starve if they choose
> > > not to eat at the Struts shelter :-)
> > >
> > > Steve
> > >
> > > Frank W. Zammetti wrote:
> > > > Steve Raeburn wrote:
> > > >> Let me try another analogy. Let's say you go down to volunteer at a
> > > >> homeless shelter. You serve a few meals and wipe a few tables a
> > > >> couple of times a month. Do you become bound by any responsibility
> > > >> other than to show up and help? Do you become responsible for solving
> > > >> the homeless problem? Should you feel obligated to give someone a
> > > >> bed? Some people may feel they do have such a responsibility. Others
> > > >> won't. It's not my place to criticize a volunteer for not taking on
> > > >> those additional responsibilities. I am just grateful that you've
> > > >> just done a little bit to help out.
> > > >
> > > > That's a good analogy, it took me a while to figure out why it wasn't
> > > > right for me with my position in mind (you had me doubting myself for
> > > > a few hours before it hit me!)...
> > > >
> > > > If the volunteer does as you say, then I would agree, there isn't any
> > > > added/assumed responsibility. One would hope they have their own
> > > > sense of responsibility and treat the homeless people kindly, but
> > > > that's about it.
> > > >
> > > > However... if the volunteer does good work and is consequently asked
> > > > to become a permanent volunteer by an existing group of permanent
> > > > volunteers, and as a result is given some degree of authority to make
> > > > decisions that will affect those that come to the shelter, then I
> > > > think there is definitely a higher level of responsibility to that
> > > > "community" of homeless, as well of course to the other permanent
> > > > volunteers. Again, as I've said all along, the degree of extra
> > > > responsibility I think is debatable.
> > > >
> > > > In your original analogy, the volunteer would be someone like me. In
> > > > my modified version, they would be a committer. At least in my eyes,
> > > > there is a difference.
> > > >
> > > > Excellent analogy though, you definitely made me think and evaluate my
> > > > position, I appreciate that! :)
> > > >
> > > >> Steve
> > > >
> > > > Frank
> > > >
> > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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> > > For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
> > >
> > >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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> > For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
> >
> >
>
>
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Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Dakota Jack <da...@gmail.com>.
So it is "dishonest" to favor the view that I agree with? That is an odd
position. I usually tend to favor what I agree with, don't you? If this
was your big strategy to trick me, I have to admit it will work every time.
Your ideas about a front controller and those you read about were started by
Craig and have appeared periodically on this page. I want to emphasize that
this is not a qusetion of semantics. Call what you call a front controller
anything you like. The fact that it is decoupled in the way I specificed is
enough to make me dislike it.
On 3/20/06, Alexandre Poitras <al...@gmail.com> wrote
>
>
>
> >. The third disagrees with you and agrees with me:
> >
> > "JSF uses the Page Controller Pattern. Although there is a single
> servlet
> > every faces request goes through, the job of the servlet is to receive a
> > faces page with components. It will then fire off events for each
> component
> > and render the components using a render toolkit. The components can
> also be
> > bound to data from the model. The faces life-cycle is illustrated in
> Figure
> > 2."
> >
> You know I have thrown this one in just to see how honest you were, I
> wanted to see if you were going to take the only part that you like
> and you did. I don't agree with the guy and I could be wrong but most
> sources I have red agree with the facts that JSF is front controller
> oriented. Unless someone give me strong evidences, I will continue to
> clear the FUD about it.
>
--
"You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back."
~Dakota Jack~
Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Alexandre Poitras <al...@gmail.com>.
On 3/20/06, Dakota Jack <da...@gmail.com> wrote:
> If you go directly from view to controller to view, this is called a "page
> controller". It is what it is. It is in my opinion a design mess that is
> adapted by tool based applications like JSF, .NET and Visual Basic. If you
> think that is good stuff, be my guest. It is not the C in MVC, not matter
> how you slice your bread
Once again you confuse the FrontController (input controller according
to Fowler) and the Application Controller. Application Controller =
mediator between the user interface and domain logic, totally MVC
agnostic. Front Controller or input controller = A single point of
dispatch for incoming http requests (basically even handlers).
And by the way, try JSF and you'll see that what you said isn't true.
Controller to view to controller to view, what are you talking about?
You click a button, a request is submitted to the Front Controller,
wich handles the event correctly and dispatch to the appropriate unit
of treatment. In struts the Action, in JSF every registered event
handler. The events dispatchers (not as with Swing) and handler are
independant of the components. So the difference is basically there,
Struts handle page events while JSF handle component events. The flow
is the same.
"Page controller is distinguished from a Front Controller in that the
page controller operates on only a single logical page, where a Front
Controller performs this functions for a set of logical pages." Even
if isn't always the case (as with Action Struts) some of my events
handler are generic and SHARED between different pages. Anyway just
take a look at a JSF PhaseListener and please explain me how it is a
Page Controller. JSF just offers the advantages of a page controller
while sticking with a front controller.
>. The third disagrees with you and agrees with me:
>
> "JSF uses the Page Controller Pattern. Although there is a single servlet
> every faces request goes through, the job of the servlet is to receive a
> faces page with components. It will then fire off events for each component
> and render the components using a render toolkit. The components can also be
> bound to data from the model. The faces life-cycle is illustrated in Figure
> 2."
>
You know I have thrown this one in just to see how honest you were, I
wanted to see if you were going to take the only part that you like
and you did. I don't agree with the guy and I could be wrong but most
sources I have red agree with the facts that JSF is front controller
oriented. Unless someone give me strong evidences, I will continue to
clear the FUD about it.
> The fourth thinks that MVC is a pattern and is not credible.
Ok, fallacies again. Because he doesn't have the same ideas as you, he
is not credible. I am taking notes... There has been so many debate
about how to designate MVC, architectural pattern, mini design
pattern, design pattern, you name them. Sorry but once again you are
just taking the part you want.
>
> On 3/20/06, Alexandre Poitras <al...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > I don't agree with you FacesServlet is a pure front controller, Faces
> > lacks an application controller on purpose but not a front controller.
> > It fits to the description in the blue prints and in Martin Fowler
> > book, the best reference on Enterprise applications patterns I know
> > of. Just tell me why you think it isn't? I will agree that JSf doesn't
> > have an application controller (this what Shale offer after all) but
> > it is totally front-controller oriented according to the definition. I
> > think you are confusing application controller and front controller
> > patterns, But since I disagree with you I don't get MVC and you are
> > not interested. Fallacies again Dakota...
> >
> > First, here's some reference about JSF being front controller oriented
> > (not by Craig since you always claim he has an hidden agenda,
> > something I found totally ridiculous):
> >
> >
> > http://www.codeguru.com/csharp/.net/net_general/toolsand3rdparty/article.php/c11139/
> >
> > http://www.oracle.com/technology/tech/java/newsletter/articles/introjsf/index.html
> > http://websphere.sys-con.com/read/46516.htm
> > http://www-128.ibm.com/developerworks/java/library/wa-dsgnpatjsf.html
> > http://java.sun.com/developer/technicalArticles/GUI/JavaServerFaces/
> >
> >
> > Oh yeah right those articles are from big corporations who just want
> > to make profit on poor developers.... But do some searches yourself,
> > you'll find tons of reference on the subject.
> >
> > Here's what I get of MVC in JSF :
> >
> > Controler = FrontController + event dispatchers
> > Model = backing beans (data model) + UI components (ui model)
> > View = renderers + the view handler
> >
> > So where am I wrong? Please give me some technical details for once
> > instead of saying I don't get it.
> >
> > By the way, I develop JSF applications using Vanilla Eclipse and my
> > coworkers do to. Tools support is not why we have chosen JSF.
> >
> >
> > On 3/20/06, Dakota Jack <da...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > This (below) has nothing to do with smarts. It has to do with the
> > purpose
> > > of JSF. The same was true of Visual Basic. A genius might use it or
> > build
> > > it or whatever. Indeed, I have friends smarter than me for sure who
> > worked
> > > for years with Visual Basic. But, it was made for the technically
> > > challenged and is a tool, nonetheless. JSF, I must assume, was built
> > the
> > > way it was as an answer to the .NET challenge. Myself, I think that is
> > a
> > > mistake, but I understand the reasoning. I am not against JSF, never
> > have
> > > been.
> > >
> > > <snip>
> > > On 3/20/06, Alexandre Poitras <al...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > On 3/20/06, Dakota Jack <da...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > JSF is built for those who are
> > > > > technically challenged and for tools.
> > > >
> > > > Ok, once again people who use JSF aren't smart, huh wait "technically
> > > > challenged". If it isn't a fallacy I wonder what it is...
> > >
> > > </snip>
> > >
> > > This (below) notion that JSF has a front controller is plain bogus. I
> > > recommend you follow up on this, check definitions, etc. (aside from
> > those
> > > marketing definitions Craig has offered) and think it through. Try the
> > > following sort of basic introduction to the front controller pattern:
> > >
> > >
> > http://java.sun.com/blueprints/corej2eepatterns/Patterns/FrontController.html
> > > http://java.sun.com/blueprints/corej2eepatterns/Patterns/index.html
> > >
> > > Mostly, I think, you need to take a look at how the model / view /
> > > controller are connected in your web architecture, with a clear
> > > understanding, as Ted has pointed out, that the web MVC decoupling is:
> > >
> > > controller --> model --> view
> > >
> > > If you chose to couple everything, then I am not interested in your
> > ideas.
> > > Someone else might be, but I am not.
> > >
> > > <snip>
> > >
> > > > If you had taken a serious look at JSF you will see it isn't page
> > > > controller based but front controller based. FacesServlet is
> > > > equivalent to the Struts ActionServlet, the big difference is that JSF
> > > > doesn't include straight out of the book an Application Controller. It
> > > > focuses on the MVC patterns in which by the way "C" stand for input
> > > > controller and not application controller, something a lot of people
> > > > don't get (quite well explained in Fowler book, a worth reading).
> > >
> > >
> > > </snip>
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > "You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its
> > back."
> > > ~Dakota Jack~
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Alexandre Poitras
> > Québec, Canada
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> "You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back."
> ~Dakota Jack~
>
>
--
Alexandre Poitras
Québec, Canada
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Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Dakota Jack <da...@gmail.com>.
If you go directly from view to controller to view, this is called a "page
controller". It is what it is. It is in my opinion a design mess that is
adapted by tool based applications like JSF, .NET and Visual Basic. If you
think that is good stuff, be my guest. It is not the C in MVC, not matter
how you slice your bread. The third disagrees with you and agrees with me:
"JSF uses the Page Controller Pattern. Although there is a single servlet
every faces request goes through, the job of the servlet is to receive a
faces page with components. It will then fire off events for each component
and render the components using a render toolkit. The components can also be
bound to data from the model. The faces life-cycle is illustrated in Figure
2."
The fourth thinks that MVC is a pattern and is not credible.
On 3/20/06, Alexandre Poitras <al...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I don't agree with you FacesServlet is a pure front controller, Faces
> lacks an application controller on purpose but not a front controller.
> It fits to the description in the blue prints and in Martin Fowler
> book, the best reference on Enterprise applications patterns I know
> of. Just tell me why you think it isn't? I will agree that JSf doesn't
> have an application controller (this what Shale offer after all) but
> it is totally front-controller oriented according to the definition. I
> think you are confusing application controller and front controller
> patterns, But since I disagree with you I don't get MVC and you are
> not interested. Fallacies again Dakota...
>
> First, here's some reference about JSF being front controller oriented
> (not by Craig since you always claim he has an hidden agenda,
> something I found totally ridiculous):
>
>
> http://www.codeguru.com/csharp/.net/net_general/toolsand3rdparty/article.php/c11139/
>
> http://www.oracle.com/technology/tech/java/newsletter/articles/introjsf/index.html
> http://websphere.sys-con.com/read/46516.htm
> http://www-128.ibm.com/developerworks/java/library/wa-dsgnpatjsf.html
> http://java.sun.com/developer/technicalArticles/GUI/JavaServerFaces/
>
>
> Oh yeah right those articles are from big corporations who just want
> to make profit on poor developers.... But do some searches yourself,
> you'll find tons of reference on the subject.
>
> Here's what I get of MVC in JSF :
>
> Controler = FrontController + event dispatchers
> Model = backing beans (data model) + UI components (ui model)
> View = renderers + the view handler
>
> So where am I wrong? Please give me some technical details for once
> instead of saying I don't get it.
>
> By the way, I develop JSF applications using Vanilla Eclipse and my
> coworkers do to. Tools support is not why we have chosen JSF.
>
>
> On 3/20/06, Dakota Jack <da...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > This (below) has nothing to do with smarts. It has to do with the
> purpose
> > of JSF. The same was true of Visual Basic. A genius might use it or
> build
> > it or whatever. Indeed, I have friends smarter than me for sure who
> worked
> > for years with Visual Basic. But, it was made for the technically
> > challenged and is a tool, nonetheless. JSF, I must assume, was built
> the
> > way it was as an answer to the .NET challenge. Myself, I think that is
> a
> > mistake, but I understand the reasoning. I am not against JSF, never
> have
> > been.
> >
> > <snip>
> > On 3/20/06, Alexandre Poitras <al...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > On 3/20/06, Dakota Jack <da...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > JSF is built for those who are
> > > > technically challenged and for tools.
> > >
> > > Ok, once again people who use JSF aren't smart, huh wait "technically
> > > challenged". If it isn't a fallacy I wonder what it is...
> >
> > </snip>
> >
> > This (below) notion that JSF has a front controller is plain bogus. I
> > recommend you follow up on this, check definitions, etc. (aside from
> those
> > marketing definitions Craig has offered) and think it through. Try the
> > following sort of basic introduction to the front controller pattern:
> >
> >
> http://java.sun.com/blueprints/corej2eepatterns/Patterns/FrontController.html
> > http://java.sun.com/blueprints/corej2eepatterns/Patterns/index.html
> >
> > Mostly, I think, you need to take a look at how the model / view /
> > controller are connected in your web architecture, with a clear
> > understanding, as Ted has pointed out, that the web MVC decoupling is:
> >
> > controller --> model --> view
> >
> > If you chose to couple everything, then I am not interested in your
> ideas.
> > Someone else might be, but I am not.
> >
> > <snip>
> >
> > > If you had taken a serious look at JSF you will see it isn't page
> > > controller based but front controller based. FacesServlet is
> > > equivalent to the Struts ActionServlet, the big difference is that JSF
> > > doesn't include straight out of the book an Application Controller. It
> > > focuses on the MVC patterns in which by the way "C" stand for input
> > > controller and not application controller, something a lot of people
> > > don't get (quite well explained in Fowler book, a worth reading).
> >
> >
> > </snip>
> >
> >
> > --
> > "You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its
> back."
> > ~Dakota Jack~
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Alexandre Poitras
> Québec, Canada
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
>
>
--
"You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back."
~Dakota Jack~
Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Dakota Jack <da...@gmail.com>.
That does not need an "Or was it". It can be for tools and other things.
It clearly, however, is built to compete with the RAD deveolopment of
tools. Indeed, the guy I preferred likes JSF because he sells tools.
On 3/20/06, Alexandre Poitras <al...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 3/20/06, Dakota Jack <da...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > I was not talking about you. I was talking about JSF. JSF is well
> known
> > for being for tools. Read your own citations.
> >
>
> It is? Or was it just one goal among many others?
>
> > On 3/20/06, Alexandre Poitras <al...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > I don't agree with you FacesServlet is a pure front controller, Faces
> > > lacks an application controller on purpose but not a front controller.
> > > It fits to the description in the blue prints and in Martin Fowler
> > > book, the best reference on Enterprise applications patterns I know
> > > of. Just tell me why you think it isn't? I will agree that JSf doesn't
> > > have an application controller (this what Shale offer after all) but
> > > it is totally front-controller oriented according to the definition. I
> > > think you are confusing application controller and front controller
> > > patterns, But since I disagree with you I don't get MVC and you are
> > > not interested. Fallacies again Dakota...
> > >
> > > First, here's some reference about JSF being front controller oriented
> > > (not by Craig since you always claim he has an hidden agenda,
> > > something I found totally ridiculous):
> > >
> > >
> > >
> http://www.codeguru.com/csharp/.net/net_general/toolsand3rdparty/article.php/c11139/
> > >
> > >
> http://www.oracle.com/technology/tech/java/newsletter/articles/introjsf/index.html
> > > http://websphere.sys-con.com/read/46516.htm
> > > http://www-128.ibm.com/developerworks/java/library/wa-dsgnpatjsf.html
> > > http://java.sun.com/developer/technicalArticles/GUI/JavaServerFaces/
> > >
> > >
> > > Oh yeah right those articles are from big corporations who just want
> > > to make profit on poor developers.... But do some searches yourself,
> > > you'll find tons of reference on the subject.
> > >
> > > Here's what I get of MVC in JSF :
> > >
> > > Controler = FrontController + event dispatchers
> > > Model = backing beans (data model) + UI components (ui model)
> > > View = renderers + the view handler
> > >
> > > So where am I wrong? Please give me some technical details for once
> > > instead of saying I don't get it.
> > >
> > > By the way, I develop JSF applications using Vanilla Eclipse and my
> > > coworkers do to. Tools support is not why we have chosen JSF.
> > >
> > >
> > > On 3/20/06, Dakota Jack <da...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > This (below) has nothing to do with smarts. It has to do with the
> > > purpose
> > > > of JSF. The same was true of Visual Basic. A genius might use it
> or
> > > build
> > > > it or whatever. Indeed, I have friends smarter than me for sure who
> > > worked
> > > > for years with Visual Basic. But, it was made for the technically
> > > > challenged and is a tool, nonetheless. JSF, I must assume, was
> built
> > > the
> > > > way it was as an answer to the .NET challenge. Myself, I think that
> is
> > > a
> > > > mistake, but I understand the reasoning. I am not against JSF,
> never
> > > have
> > > > been.
> > > >
> > > > <snip>
> > > > On 3/20/06, Alexandre Poitras <al...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > On 3/20/06, Dakota Jack <da...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > JSF is built for those who are
> > > > > > technically challenged and for tools.
> > > > >
> > > > > Ok, once again people who use JSF aren't smart, huh wait
> "technically
> > > > > challenged". If it isn't a fallacy I wonder what it is...
> > > >
> > > > </snip>
> > > >
> > > > This (below) notion that JSF has a front controller is plain
> bogus. I
> > > > recommend you follow up on this, check definitions, etc. (aside from
> > > those
> > > > marketing definitions Craig has offered) and think it through. Try
> the
> > > > following sort of basic introduction to the front controller
> pattern:
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> http://java.sun.com/blueprints/corej2eepatterns/Patterns/FrontController.html
> > > > http://java.sun.com/blueprints/corej2eepatterns/Patterns/index.html
> > > >
> > > > Mostly, I think, you need to take a look at how the model / view /
> > > > controller are connected in your web architecture, with a clear
> > > > understanding, as Ted has pointed out, that the web MVC decoupling
> is:
> > > >
> > > > controller --> model --> view
> > > >
> > > > If you chose to couple everything, then I am not interested in your
> > > ideas.
> > > > Someone else might be, but I am not.
> > > >
> > > > <snip>
> > > >
> > > > > If you had taken a serious look at JSF you will see it isn't page
> > > > > controller based but front controller based. FacesServlet is
> > > > > equivalent to the Struts ActionServlet, the big difference is that
> JSF
> > > > > doesn't include straight out of the book an Application
> Controller. It
> > > > > focuses on the MVC patterns in which by the way "C" stand for
> input
> > > > > controller and not application controller, something a lot of
> people
> > > > > don't get (quite well explained in Fowler book, a worth reading).
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > </snip>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > "You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its
> > > back."
> > > > ~Dakota Jack~
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Alexandre Poitras
> > > Québec, Canada
> > >
> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> > > For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > "You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its
> back."
> > ~Dakota Jack~
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Alexandre Poitras
> Québec, Canada
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
>
>
--
"You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back."
~Dakota Jack~
Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Alexandre Poitras <al...@gmail.com>.
On 3/20/06, Dakota Jack <da...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I was not talking about you. I was talking about JSF. JSF is well known
> for being for tools. Read your own citations.
>
It is? Or was it just one goal among many others?
> On 3/20/06, Alexandre Poitras <al...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > I don't agree with you FacesServlet is a pure front controller, Faces
> > lacks an application controller on purpose but not a front controller.
> > It fits to the description in the blue prints and in Martin Fowler
> > book, the best reference on Enterprise applications patterns I know
> > of. Just tell me why you think it isn't? I will agree that JSf doesn't
> > have an application controller (this what Shale offer after all) but
> > it is totally front-controller oriented according to the definition. I
> > think you are confusing application controller and front controller
> > patterns, But since I disagree with you I don't get MVC and you are
> > not interested. Fallacies again Dakota...
> >
> > First, here's some reference about JSF being front controller oriented
> > (not by Craig since you always claim he has an hidden agenda,
> > something I found totally ridiculous):
> >
> >
> > http://www.codeguru.com/csharp/.net/net_general/toolsand3rdparty/article.php/c11139/
> >
> > http://www.oracle.com/technology/tech/java/newsletter/articles/introjsf/index.html
> > http://websphere.sys-con.com/read/46516.htm
> > http://www-128.ibm.com/developerworks/java/library/wa-dsgnpatjsf.html
> > http://java.sun.com/developer/technicalArticles/GUI/JavaServerFaces/
> >
> >
> > Oh yeah right those articles are from big corporations who just want
> > to make profit on poor developers.... But do some searches yourself,
> > you'll find tons of reference on the subject.
> >
> > Here's what I get of MVC in JSF :
> >
> > Controler = FrontController + event dispatchers
> > Model = backing beans (data model) + UI components (ui model)
> > View = renderers + the view handler
> >
> > So where am I wrong? Please give me some technical details for once
> > instead of saying I don't get it.
> >
> > By the way, I develop JSF applications using Vanilla Eclipse and my
> > coworkers do to. Tools support is not why we have chosen JSF.
> >
> >
> > On 3/20/06, Dakota Jack <da...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > This (below) has nothing to do with smarts. It has to do with the
> > purpose
> > > of JSF. The same was true of Visual Basic. A genius might use it or
> > build
> > > it or whatever. Indeed, I have friends smarter than me for sure who
> > worked
> > > for years with Visual Basic. But, it was made for the technically
> > > challenged and is a tool, nonetheless. JSF, I must assume, was built
> > the
> > > way it was as an answer to the .NET challenge. Myself, I think that is
> > a
> > > mistake, but I understand the reasoning. I am not against JSF, never
> > have
> > > been.
> > >
> > > <snip>
> > > On 3/20/06, Alexandre Poitras <al...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > On 3/20/06, Dakota Jack <da...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > JSF is built for those who are
> > > > > technically challenged and for tools.
> > > >
> > > > Ok, once again people who use JSF aren't smart, huh wait "technically
> > > > challenged". If it isn't a fallacy I wonder what it is...
> > >
> > > </snip>
> > >
> > > This (below) notion that JSF has a front controller is plain bogus. I
> > > recommend you follow up on this, check definitions, etc. (aside from
> > those
> > > marketing definitions Craig has offered) and think it through. Try the
> > > following sort of basic introduction to the front controller pattern:
> > >
> > >
> > http://java.sun.com/blueprints/corej2eepatterns/Patterns/FrontController.html
> > > http://java.sun.com/blueprints/corej2eepatterns/Patterns/index.html
> > >
> > > Mostly, I think, you need to take a look at how the model / view /
> > > controller are connected in your web architecture, with a clear
> > > understanding, as Ted has pointed out, that the web MVC decoupling is:
> > >
> > > controller --> model --> view
> > >
> > > If you chose to couple everything, then I am not interested in your
> > ideas.
> > > Someone else might be, but I am not.
> > >
> > > <snip>
> > >
> > > > If you had taken a serious look at JSF you will see it isn't page
> > > > controller based but front controller based. FacesServlet is
> > > > equivalent to the Struts ActionServlet, the big difference is that JSF
> > > > doesn't include straight out of the book an Application Controller. It
> > > > focuses on the MVC patterns in which by the way "C" stand for input
> > > > controller and not application controller, something a lot of people
> > > > don't get (quite well explained in Fowler book, a worth reading).
> > >
> > >
> > > </snip>
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > "You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its
> > back."
> > > ~Dakota Jack~
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Alexandre Poitras
> > Québec, Canada
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> "You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back."
> ~Dakota Jack~
>
>
--
Alexandre Poitras
Québec, Canada
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Dakota Jack <da...@gmail.com>.
I was not talking about you. I was talking about JSF. JSF is well known
for being for tools. Read your own citations.
On 3/20/06, Alexandre Poitras <al...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I don't agree with you FacesServlet is a pure front controller, Faces
> lacks an application controller on purpose but not a front controller.
> It fits to the description in the blue prints and in Martin Fowler
> book, the best reference on Enterprise applications patterns I know
> of. Just tell me why you think it isn't? I will agree that JSf doesn't
> have an application controller (this what Shale offer after all) but
> it is totally front-controller oriented according to the definition. I
> think you are confusing application controller and front controller
> patterns, But since I disagree with you I don't get MVC and you are
> not interested. Fallacies again Dakota...
>
> First, here's some reference about JSF being front controller oriented
> (not by Craig since you always claim he has an hidden agenda,
> something I found totally ridiculous):
>
>
> http://www.codeguru.com/csharp/.net/net_general/toolsand3rdparty/article.php/c11139/
>
> http://www.oracle.com/technology/tech/java/newsletter/articles/introjsf/index.html
> http://websphere.sys-con.com/read/46516.htm
> http://www-128.ibm.com/developerworks/java/library/wa-dsgnpatjsf.html
> http://java.sun.com/developer/technicalArticles/GUI/JavaServerFaces/
>
>
> Oh yeah right those articles are from big corporations who just want
> to make profit on poor developers.... But do some searches yourself,
> you'll find tons of reference on the subject.
>
> Here's what I get of MVC in JSF :
>
> Controler = FrontController + event dispatchers
> Model = backing beans (data model) + UI components (ui model)
> View = renderers + the view handler
>
> So where am I wrong? Please give me some technical details for once
> instead of saying I don't get it.
>
> By the way, I develop JSF applications using Vanilla Eclipse and my
> coworkers do to. Tools support is not why we have chosen JSF.
>
>
> On 3/20/06, Dakota Jack <da...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > This (below) has nothing to do with smarts. It has to do with the
> purpose
> > of JSF. The same was true of Visual Basic. A genius might use it or
> build
> > it or whatever. Indeed, I have friends smarter than me for sure who
> worked
> > for years with Visual Basic. But, it was made for the technically
> > challenged and is a tool, nonetheless. JSF, I must assume, was built
> the
> > way it was as an answer to the .NET challenge. Myself, I think that is
> a
> > mistake, but I understand the reasoning. I am not against JSF, never
> have
> > been.
> >
> > <snip>
> > On 3/20/06, Alexandre Poitras <al...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > On 3/20/06, Dakota Jack <da...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > JSF is built for those who are
> > > > technically challenged and for tools.
> > >
> > > Ok, once again people who use JSF aren't smart, huh wait "technically
> > > challenged". If it isn't a fallacy I wonder what it is...
> >
> > </snip>
> >
> > This (below) notion that JSF has a front controller is plain bogus. I
> > recommend you follow up on this, check definitions, etc. (aside from
> those
> > marketing definitions Craig has offered) and think it through. Try the
> > following sort of basic introduction to the front controller pattern:
> >
> >
> http://java.sun.com/blueprints/corej2eepatterns/Patterns/FrontController.html
> > http://java.sun.com/blueprints/corej2eepatterns/Patterns/index.html
> >
> > Mostly, I think, you need to take a look at how the model / view /
> > controller are connected in your web architecture, with a clear
> > understanding, as Ted has pointed out, that the web MVC decoupling is:
> >
> > controller --> model --> view
> >
> > If you chose to couple everything, then I am not interested in your
> ideas.
> > Someone else might be, but I am not.
> >
> > <snip>
> >
> > > If you had taken a serious look at JSF you will see it isn't page
> > > controller based but front controller based. FacesServlet is
> > > equivalent to the Struts ActionServlet, the big difference is that JSF
> > > doesn't include straight out of the book an Application Controller. It
> > > focuses on the MVC patterns in which by the way "C" stand for input
> > > controller and not application controller, something a lot of people
> > > don't get (quite well explained in Fowler book, a worth reading).
> >
> >
> > </snip>
> >
> >
> > --
> > "You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its
> back."
> > ~Dakota Jack~
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Alexandre Poitras
> Québec, Canada
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
>
>
--
"You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back."
~Dakota Jack~
Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Alexandre Poitras <al...@gmail.com>.
I don't agree with you FacesServlet is a pure front controller, Faces
lacks an application controller on purpose but not a front controller.
It fits to the description in the blue prints and in Martin Fowler
book, the best reference on Enterprise applications patterns I know
of. Just tell me why you think it isn't? I will agree that JSf doesn't
have an application controller (this what Shale offer after all) but
it is totally front-controller oriented according to the definition. I
think you are confusing application controller and front controller
patterns, But since I disagree with you I don't get MVC and you are
not interested. Fallacies again Dakota...
First, here's some reference about JSF being front controller oriented
(not by Craig since you always claim he has an hidden agenda,
something I found totally ridiculous):
http://www.codeguru.com/csharp/.net/net_general/toolsand3rdparty/article.php/c11139/
http://www.oracle.com/technology/tech/java/newsletter/articles/introjsf/index.html
http://websphere.sys-con.com/read/46516.htm
http://www-128.ibm.com/developerworks/java/library/wa-dsgnpatjsf.html
http://java.sun.com/developer/technicalArticles/GUI/JavaServerFaces/
Oh yeah right those articles are from big corporations who just want
to make profit on poor developers.... But do some searches yourself,
you'll find tons of reference on the subject.
Here's what I get of MVC in JSF :
Controler = FrontController + event dispatchers
Model = backing beans (data model) + UI components (ui model)
View = renderers + the view handler
So where am I wrong? Please give me some technical details for once
instead of saying I don't get it.
By the way, I develop JSF applications using Vanilla Eclipse and my
coworkers do to. Tools support is not why we have chosen JSF.
On 3/20/06, Dakota Jack <da...@gmail.com> wrote:
> This (below) has nothing to do with smarts. It has to do with the purpose
> of JSF. The same was true of Visual Basic. A genius might use it or build
> it or whatever. Indeed, I have friends smarter than me for sure who worked
> for years with Visual Basic. But, it was made for the technically
> challenged and is a tool, nonetheless. JSF, I must assume, was built the
> way it was as an answer to the .NET challenge. Myself, I think that is a
> mistake, but I understand the reasoning. I am not against JSF, never have
> been.
>
> <snip>
> On 3/20/06, Alexandre Poitras <al...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > On 3/20/06, Dakota Jack <da...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> JSF is built for those who are
> > > technically challenged and for tools.
> >
> > Ok, once again people who use JSF aren't smart, huh wait "technically
> > challenged". If it isn't a fallacy I wonder what it is...
>
> </snip>
>
> This (below) notion that JSF has a front controller is plain bogus. I
> recommend you follow up on this, check definitions, etc. (aside from those
> marketing definitions Craig has offered) and think it through. Try the
> following sort of basic introduction to the front controller pattern:
>
> http://java.sun.com/blueprints/corej2eepatterns/Patterns/FrontController.html
> http://java.sun.com/blueprints/corej2eepatterns/Patterns/index.html
>
> Mostly, I think, you need to take a look at how the model / view /
> controller are connected in your web architecture, with a clear
> understanding, as Ted has pointed out, that the web MVC decoupling is:
>
> controller --> model --> view
>
> If you chose to couple everything, then I am not interested in your ideas.
> Someone else might be, but I am not.
>
> <snip>
>
> > If you had taken a serious look at JSF you will see it isn't page
> > controller based but front controller based. FacesServlet is
> > equivalent to the Struts ActionServlet, the big difference is that JSF
> > doesn't include straight out of the book an Application Controller. It
> > focuses on the MVC patterns in which by the way "C" stand for input
> > controller and not application controller, something a lot of people
> > don't get (quite well explained in Fowler book, a worth reading).
>
>
> </snip>
>
>
> --
> "You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back."
> ~Dakota Jack~
>
>
--
Alexandre Poitras
Québec, Canada
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Dakota Jack <da...@gmail.com>.
This (below) has nothing to do with smarts. It has to do with the purpose
of JSF. The same was true of Visual Basic. A genius might use it or build
it or whatever. Indeed, I have friends smarter than me for sure who worked
for years with Visual Basic. But, it was made for the technically
challenged and is a tool, nonetheless. JSF, I must assume, was built the
way it was as an answer to the .NET challenge. Myself, I think that is a
mistake, but I understand the reasoning. I am not against JSF, never have
been.
<snip>
On 3/20/06, Alexandre Poitras <al...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 3/20/06, Dakota Jack <da...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
JSF is built for those who are
> > technically challenged and for tools.
>
> Ok, once again people who use JSF aren't smart, huh wait "technically
> challenged". If it isn't a fallacy I wonder what it is...
</snip>
This (below) notion that JSF has a front controller is plain bogus. I
recommend you follow up on this, check definitions, etc. (aside from those
marketing definitions Craig has offered) and think it through. Try the
following sort of basic introduction to the front controller pattern:
http://java.sun.com/blueprints/corej2eepatterns/Patterns/FrontController.html
http://java.sun.com/blueprints/corej2eepatterns/Patterns/index.html
Mostly, I think, you need to take a look at how the model / view /
controller are connected in your web architecture, with a clear
understanding, as Ted has pointed out, that the web MVC decoupling is:
controller --> model --> view
If you chose to couple everything, then I am not interested in your ideas.
Someone else might be, but I am not.
<snip>
> If you had taken a serious look at JSF you will see it isn't page
> controller based but front controller based. FacesServlet is
> equivalent to the Struts ActionServlet, the big difference is that JSF
> doesn't include straight out of the book an Application Controller. It
> focuses on the MVC patterns in which by the way "C" stand for input
> controller and not application controller, something a lot of people
> don't get (quite well explained in Fowler book, a worth reading).
</snip>
--
"You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back."
~Dakota Jack~
Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Alexandre Poitras <al...@gmail.com>.
On 3/20/06, Dakota Jack <da...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I have expressed my "technical concerns" more than once. I have even had
> Craig agree with them, in a sense. JSF is built for those who are
> technically challenged and for tools.
Ok, once again people who use JSF aren't smart, huh wait "technically
challenged". If it isn't a fallacy I wonder what it is...
>I don't think even Craig thinks that
> JSF is superior as a product for advanced webwork. Who knows anymore,
> however. Look under my discussions, many of them,. about page based
> controllers and my advocacy of a web-MVC.
>
> Why don't you say just what the major reason is that you chose Shale, JSF,
> MyFaces, or whatever over Tapestry? Do you think we should have Tapestry
> under the Struts "umbrella" too.
If you had taken a serious look at JSF you will see it isn't page
controller based but front controller based. FacesServlet is
equivalent to the Struts ActionServlet, the big difference is that JSF
doesn't include straight out of the book an Application Controller. It
focuses on the MVC patterns in which by the way "C" stand for input
controller and not application controller, something a lot of people
don't get (quite well explained in Fowler book, a worth reading).
That what Shale offers - a JSF application controller, aka
RequestProcessor in the Struts world. The RequestProcessor is the
first reason why I started using Struts and I think it is it's main
feature. Sure the html binding tag libraries are great and useful but
there are better products out there. The problem I see is that Struts
was designed at first to be an application controller and not a MVC
framework. Those were included to make it more useable and now Struts
has become a really big mess.
So if you agree that Struts is an Application Controller offer first,
it is normal to accomodate the different MVC frameworks out there just
like Spring DI container can be plugged-in to the different MVC
frameworks.
The question is more do the community want to mark Struts as an
application controller framework or as a full blown MVC framework or
as both. If you choose the first option, it makes a lot of sense Shale
stay under Struts umbrella.
To answer your question, no I don't think Tapestry would fit under
Struts Umbrella because it's focus is not on the application
controller. Well I got to go work soon and this post is already long
enough but I will post later the reasons why I choose JSF over
Tapestry if you are still interested in.
>
>
> <snip>
> On 3/19/06, Alexandre Poitras <al...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > You are the one always
> > bashing JSF, so express your specific technical concerns for once.
>
>
> </snip>
>
> This is either ignorance or a lie. I have always backed up my arguments
> with my technical concerns. That is where my concerns come from. They
> don't come from kissing anyone's butt, that's for sure. I have decided I
> could give a s.h.i.t. what people like Gary say about trolls.
>
> There is only one person in this particular exchange that has not given the
> basis for their choice and that is you. If you don't want to, fine. But
> don't try to pass off blatant falsity about what I have or have not done as
> the truth.
>
If you want but other then sensationalism statements à la "Struts is
C++ and JSF is VB" or "Struts is for the experienced and capable
developpers while JSF is for newbies", I have seen basically nothing
on this list.
> <snip.
>
> Frankly, when it comes to back up your claims with technical
> > arguments, you always seem to run away. Yet you complain about logical
> > fallacies and you attack personally Gary. You don't want to be called
> > a troll but you certainly not helping your case.
>
> </snip>
>
> This is a huge, unfortunate, misunderstanding which I suppose now will gain
> currency. There is absolutely nothing inconsistent or otherwise discordant
> between an front controller and Ajax. That is sn inanity.
> <snip>
>
> > For my part, I really appreciated working with Struts for a long time
> > but I think the zenith of Action-based frameworks has passed,
> > especially with the advent of Ajax.
>
> </snip>
Ok your snip's structure lost me there so I will answer both of these here.
See the first part of my reply -> news flash : " Faces is front
controller oriented". I said components framework are good with Ajax
because they can encapsulate the big messy JavaScript and the
necessary backing Java code for them to work. They are easier to
integrate in your application but you can use Ajax without any problem
in any Struts application.
>
> Is that a website that is being used presently?
>
Yeah an intranet application which is in production right
> <snip>
>
> > I prefer as my coworkers do to
> > using component frameworks now and that why my corporations is
> > switching from Struts to JSF. And no Dakota it has nothing to do with
> > Shale or Craig, we gave a try at Vanilla JSF first and even if there
> > were some rough spots, we were quite happy with it. Plus, JSF have
> > some momemtum at the moment, just look at the different innovations
> > going around it now (Seam, Shale, facelets, ADF, tobago, ...).
>
>
> </snip>
>
> This debate is not about Struts versus JSF. That is the stupid sense of
> it. This is about the inappropriateness of JSF being in Struts. Frankly,
> if someone does not get that, I think they have to either be twisted, not
> too bright, or have a hidden agenda.
>
> <snip>
Once again you use sensationalism words. Shale isn't JSF, Shale is
primarily an application controller framework for JSF and comes along
with other goodies. This is how I have always pictured Struts, ie a
pure generic application controller framework with a lot of goodies
(and over time those goodies have made Struts very big indeed). But I
guess it depends of your vision of it and I think it is where the
debate should be headed - What is Struts main goal ? Application
controller framework or MVC framework or both. The answer about Shale
presence will than appear very quickly.
As a side note about the famous hidden agenda... Judge and argue over
the product. Stop trying to interpret every move or this debate will
be going nowhere.
* Sorry for any mistakes I have made in this *long* post. I am always
working hard to improve my english.
--
Alexandre Poitras
Québec, Canada
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Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Henri Yandell <fl...@gmail.com>.
On 3/22/06, Dakota Jack <da...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I would like to point out that communities and PMCs in Apache decidedly do
> NOT have a one-to-one mapping.
If you dig into them though, they're changing.
Web Services is flattening, XML is federating, I'm being a pain at
Jakarta trying to get us to follow Web Services' direction.
It's a legacy issue of the message of what a PMC is meant to be not
being fully understood/defined when a lot of the projects started off.
> I would also like to point out that a lot of
> our "community" is migrant workers brought in especially for Shale and
> having nothing much at all to do with the Struts community. Many of them
> only had as their credentials work on a foreign soil.
Yep, this happens from time to time. I don't know the history - was
there a codebase before it came in, was it new, what were the
incubation issues etc, but there are times when communities indicate
that they want to merge because they believe overlap will grow, or to
grow communities in-house etc. The proof will be in the pudding.
I personally agree with the context of your message - questions on
whether Struts Action 2.0 and Struts Shale will remain one community
or not. It's too early for alarm bells though - the community
consensus was to give it a try and over the next year or two we'll see
what happens.
Hen
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Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Dakota Jack <da...@gmail.com>.
I would like to point out that communities and PMCs in Apache decidedly do
NOT have a one-to-one mapping. I would also like to point out that a lot of
our "community" is migrant workers brought in especially for Shale and
having nothing much at all to do with the Struts community. Many of them
only had as their credentials work on a foreign soil.
On 3/22/06, Henri Yandell <fl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 3/19/06, Dakota Jack <da...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > I have expressed my "technical concerns" more than once. I have even
> had
> > Craig agree with them, in a sense. JSF is built for those who are
> > technically challenged and for tools. I don't think even Craig thinks
> that
> > JSF is superior as a product for advanced webwork. Who knows anymore,
> > however. Look under my discussions, many of them,. about page based
> > controllers and my advocacy of a web-MVC.
> >
> > Why don't you say just what the major reason is that you chose Shale,
> JSF,
> > MyFaces, or whatever over Tapestry? Do you think we should have
> Tapestry
> > under the Struts "umbrella" too.
>
> Thought I'd pipe up on this one.
>
> foo.apache.org maps to a PMC, which maps to a coding community, not to
> a codebase.
>
> So:
>
> If Shale, Struts 1.x and Struts 2.x are being developed by the same
> community - then having them under the oversight of the Struts PMC is
> a good thing. If the community splits in two or three - then the
> question of their being together is a good one.
>
> Tapestry and MyFaces are not developed by the same community, and
> shouldn't be unless the communities show significant overlap.
>
> It's that simple :)
>
> Hen
>
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>
>
--
"You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back."
~Dakota Jack~
Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Henri Yandell <fl...@gmail.com>.
On 3/22/06, Dakota Jack <da...@gmail.com> wrote:
> <snip>
> On 3/22/06, Niall Pemberton <ni...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > On 3/23/06, Henri Yandell <fl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > Struts is a cool community. The users are actively involved, in terms
> > > of answering and asking; people obviously care about the community -
> > > as shown by both your and Dakota's questions and by the desire of the
> > > committers to work to keep things together; and there's an active
> > > future happening plus legacy being actively maintained by both
> > > contributors and committers.
> >
> > I don't believe this is true -
>
> </snip>
>
> But, Henri does Niall. Sometimes care is shown by saying that you think the
> whole thing is a mess. The basic idea of Struts has a place, I think. But,
> I have very little hope that the idea will survive this "community".
though you lost the important collorary in my point:
...but consensus is to give it a try, so let's get over the issue for
the moment and see how it goes.
Basically - we could debate the positives and negatives of community
direction til the cows not only go home, but also head back out again
because they're tired of being stuck in a barn with us.
The fact that the community has direction and is moving in that
direction is enough for me.
Hen
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Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Dakota Jack <da...@gmail.com>.
<snip>
On 3/22/06, Niall Pemberton <ni...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 3/23/06, Henri Yandell <fl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Struts is a cool community. The users are actively involved, in terms
> > of answering and asking; people obviously care about the community -
> > as shown by both your and Dakota's questions and by the desire of the
> > committers to work to keep things together; and there's an active
> > future happening plus legacy being actively maintained by both
> > contributors and committers.
>
> I don't believe this is true -
</snip>
But, Henri does Niall. Sometimes care is shown by saying that you think the
whole thing is a mess. The basic idea of Struts has a place, I think. But,
I have very little hope that the idea will survive this "community".
--
"You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back."
~Dakota Jack~
Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Dakota Jack <da...@gmail.com>.
Lord, Mitchell, he said the problem was not the website. Do you just take
jabs or do you every actually come up with a position and defend it?
On 3/23/06, James Mitchell <jm...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> Jonathan, I can't seem to find your patch to fix the website anywhere in
> bugzilla. Can you point me to it?
>
> --
> James Mitchell
> Software Engineer / Open Source Evangelist
> Consulting / Mentoring
> 678.910.8017
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jonathan Revusky" <re...@wanadoo.es>
> To: <us...@struts.apache.org>
> Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2006 5:29 AM
> Subject: Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
>
>
> > Henri Yandell wrote:
> >> On 3/22/06, Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es> wrote:
> >>
> >>>Henri Yandell wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>foo.apache.org maps to a PMC, which maps to a coding community, not to
> >>>>a codebase.
> >>>
> >>>Henri, I feel I should give you a bit of end-user feedback. I am not
> >>>active in any apache.org projects, but, obviously, it happens quite
> >>>frequently that I go visit the front page of a given apache.orgproject,
> >>>to check it out for whatever needs I have at that moment.
> >>>´
> >>>FYI, when I visit foo.apache.org, I am not there for the PMC or
> whatever
> >>>ASF bureaucratic construct. I'm there for the code.
> >>>
> >>>In general, when I visit the front page of a project, I like to be able
> >>>to figure out what the thing is fairly quickly. This is definitely a
> >>>problem with Struts currently.
> >>
> >>
> >> So that's a website issue ie) how to join/find the community rather
> >> than an issue in how the community itself is structured.
> >>
> >> Do you have suggestions to improve the Struts website so that things
> >> are more clear? There's not a website at the ASF that couldn't be made
> >> a bit clearer.
> >
> > Well, just go to http://struts.apache.org/ and look at it and imagine
> that
> > you don't know anything about what struts is. I put it to you that the
> > reader who hits your front page should not be supposed to know what the
> > thing is.
> >
> > What is strange about it is that whoever wrote the page tacitly
> recognizes
> > that it is a confused jumble and spends most of the page trying to
> > rationalize it. "Why two frameworks?" followed by "Why so many
> > subprojects?" What is also patently obvious is that the two rhetorical
> > questions are posed on the page, and never, AFAICS, answered
> > satisfactorily.
> >
> > And then the text there just assumes all kinds of insider knowledge that
> > the reader of the front page really IMHO should not be assumed to know.
> >
> > Now, you can go look at the page, Henri, and maybe you think it's okay.
> If
> > you do think the whole thing is really A-OK, then we have a difference
> of
> > opinion. Here is the basis of it:
> >
> > Who is the intended audience for this text?
> >
> > I guess we have different answers for that.
> >
> > (I could almost characterize it as that the author's intended audience
> in
> > "Why two frameworks?" and so on is himself!)
> >
> > I don't think this is a problem of website organization. The website
> > problem _reflects_ a deeper problem.
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Jonathan Revusky
> > --
> > lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/
> >
> >>
> >>
> >>>>So:
> >>>>
> >>>>If Shale, Struts 1.x and Struts 2.x are being developed by the same
> >>>>community -
> >>>
> >>>Nah, my understanding is that this isn't really the case. There is a
> >>>Struts 1.x which is basically in maintenance mode. There is a Struts
> >>>Action Framework 2.x which is basically Webwork (until recently a
> >>>completely separate *competing* product developed outside of ASF) and
> >>>that's a completely separate team at the moment.
> >>
> >>
> >> Right, so two communities merging. This is all good - it's probably
> >> natural that you'll see the old hands maintaining the 1.2/1.3 releases
> >> instead of the Webwork guys, but who knows. Plus there will be new
> >> committers, maybe some who just focus on 1.3 because the community
> >> wants to keep it alive.
> >>
> >>
> >>>And Shale is something
> >>>with a completely different approach, and I assume, has a separate
> team.
> >>
> >>
> >> Team-wise, everybody in Struts has access to all the code. They're
> >> also using the same mailing list, and are components in the same
> >> Bugzilla project. All great ways to keep the community together.
> >>
> >> Looking at viewcvs quickly; I immediately see overlap. People
> >> committing to shale who are committing to action-1; and the same for
> >> action-2. There will definitely be a focus for each person - but it's
> >> easy to see cross-pollination at work.
> >>
> >> Struts is a cool community. The users are actively involved, in terms
> >> of answering and asking; people obviously care about the community -
> >> as shown by both your and Dakota's questions and by the desire of the
> >> committers to work to keep things together; and there's an active
> >> future happening plus legacy being actively maintained by both
> >> contributors and committers.
> >>
> >> Yes, shale and action might move apart as the months/years go by and
> >> at some point they might want to separate, but right now it doesn't
> >> look like an unhealthy situation to me. These things tend to evolve
> >> quite happily - someone like yourself raises a question of whether
> >> it's time to make an evolutionary leap, and the community responds. In
> >> the case of this thread I think it's not time for the leap.
> >>
> >> Hen
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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> > For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
> >
> >
>
>
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>
--
"You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back."
~Dakota Jack~
Re: Sometimes, you post something worth reading...
Posted by Dave Newton <ne...@pingsite.com>.
DGraham@EvergreenInvestments.com wrote:
> If not, then please be courteous enough to send a private email. Because
> maybe, just maybe, it's not that important to have the last word in a
> public forum.
>
Sez you.
;)
Dave
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Sometimes, you post something worth reading...
Posted by DG...@EvergreenInvestments.com.
PREFACE: "You" is slang for a nice Southern "You all." :)
I can't speak for anybody else, but I don't have an "inability to handle
email". Or maybe I do, and I just don't know how to code a filter to
determine when you are posting crap, and when you aren't.
Regardless, I'm generally interested in trying to help people and
genuinely interested in being helped. But the fact is that the previous
week had a poor signal/noise ratio and I've been able to do neither.
So, I'm suggesting that everybody ask the following question of themselves
before hitting "Send" (ESPECIALLY when you know you're in a pissin'
match):
"Will this email provide any value to any member of this list other than
myself?"
If not, then please be courteous enough to send a private email. Because
maybe, just maybe, it's not that important to have the last word in a
public forum.
-Dennis
Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Dakota Jack <da...@gmail.com>.
Try using a good browser. I am not willing to change my life to suit your
apparent inability to handle email.
On 3/23/06, Emmanouil Batsis <Em...@eurodyn.com> wrote:
>
>
> Hello,
>
> As a mortal user i would suggest that all this discussion to be taken
> somewhere else, but i have a strong feeling that the motives behind this
> and many other thread posts during the last few months are actually fed
> by the visibility of the mailing list itself.
>
> Anyway, just wanted to say the noise in some threads makes it impossible
> to filter the actual info in them. I think thats where the value of the
> thread largely degrades making it useless (well, for me at least).
>
> Manos
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
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>
>
--
"You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back."
~Dakota Jack~
Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Henri Yandell <fl...@gmail.com>.
On 3/23/06, Emmanouil Batsis <Em...@eurodyn.com> wrote:
>
> Hello,
>
> As a mortal user i would suggest that all this discussion to be taken
> somewhere else, but i have a strong feeling that the motives behind this
> and many other thread posts during the last few months are actually fed
> by the visibility of the mailing list itself.
>
> Anyway, just wanted to say the noise in some threads makes it impossible
> to filter the actual info in them. I think thats where the value of the
> thread largely degrades making it useless (well, for me at least).
>
> Manos
+1.
I encourage anybody to email me privately, or with a list of cc's, for
further discussion. I think I've made my point as a non-Struts
committer at the ASF that there is an awareness of the community
issues and that Struts are doing every right currently.
I encourage Jonathan or anybody else to start a constructive thread on
improving the Struts message on the website.
But now we've passed 100 threads on a user list, it's probably time to
let it die. Take your replies off-list and sort out differences there.
Hen
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Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Dakota Jack <da...@gmail.com>.
When someone is telling you that you are going in the wrong direction, a
good answer is not "Help me go faster".
On 3/23/06, James Mitchell <jm...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> >> Jonathan, I can't seem to find your patch to fix the website anywhere
> in
> >> bugzilla. Can you point me to it?
> >
> > James, I understand that this is some kind of attempt at sarcasm. The
> > problem is that you're obviously not really thinking about what you're
> > saying.
>
> Oh, maybe you are right. What I really meant to say is "put up or shut
> up".
> The only excuse for not helping is not knowing how or not having
> time. And
> we have the "how" covered under the FAQ link, and since you are obviously
> a
> very successful part of Freemarker, I doubt this fits you. So, again, why
> have you not offerred to help explain things better? Did you just come
> here
> to complain?
>
> Trust me, your complaints do not affect the compensation I get from the
> ASF.
> I am richly rewarded for my contributions. In fact, I still get dividends
> from time to time. Just the other day I got an email from someone
> thanking
> me for helping with a particularly difficult issue they had struggled with
> until Google landed them on a response I had made a few months back, which
> helped them get to a solution much faster than they would have on their
> own.
> That's my currency.
>
>
> > Let's try to deconstruct what you're saying implicitly:
> >
> > A potential user hits your website and cannot, on the basis of the text
> > there, understand what the product is or does.
>
> I see, so you speak for EVERYONE now, correct?
>
> > You seem to be suggesting that this very same individual should offer a
> > patch to fix this issue.
>
> That's not what I said.
>
> You claim that someone who hits the website cannot understand what the
> product is or does. How can you claim this unless you actually DO
> understand what it is and therefore it must be confusing for someone who
> doesn't. Do you see the difference?
>
> Furthermore, for you to even suggest that this is confusing means that you
> actually do care about what people think about Struts. Am I wrong? If
> not,
> then why have you only offerred criticism and not a patch?
>
> >
> > Or in other words:
> >
> > The "bug" that a person reports is that the text on a website is
> basically
> > incomprehensible. He doesn't understand what you're talking about. So he
> > offers a patch so that *HE* now will understand WTF *YOU* are talking
> > about.
>
> See above explanation.
>
> >
> > Do you see the basis for Monty Python skit here?
>
> To use your own words, "Well, yeah... blah blah".
>
> >
> > Look, James, obviously it is up to the Struts people to explain clearly
> > what their product is.
>
> No, it isn't. As Ted and others have explain NUMEROUS times in the past.
> We are here to scratch an itch!!!!! We are here to build the software
> that
> WE want to use for OUR projects. It just so happens that a few of us
> spend
> some extra time on documentation. We are NOT obligated to do so. If I'm
> wrong, then I must have missed that section in the ASF guidelines or
> bylaws.
>
> Maybe if we were JBoss Inc. or Spring21 we might have paid staff to keep
> the
> docs all prettified and such.
>
> >
> > Henri asked me specifically to say what my criticism of the website was
> > and I answered the question. I just said that you have to reconsider the
> > audience that the site is oriented towards.
>
> Aha, see, you do care.
>
> >
> > Do you think I'm wrong about this?
> >
> > Whether you do or not, should people who offer their opinion in good
> faith
> > ...
>
> LMAO! Is that what you call it?
>
> > ... be subjected to this kind of lame, moronic sarcasm? To me, this just
> > doesn't seem like adult behavior.
>
> I see, well, among the more moronic things I've seen you say here more
> than
> once include:
> "Moreover, the fact that Struts was unable to stay competitive with
> Webwork even given the huge advantages you should have in terms of
> attracting collaborators, this seems to suggest that your model did not
> work very well."
>
> What model is that? You base your "opinion in good faith" on unfounded
> principals. The Apache way is not based on business models. Apache is
> NOT
> in the business of competing with anyone. Why do you (and others) keep
> suggesting different?
>
>
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Jonathan Revusky
> > --
> > lead developer, FreeMarker project
>
> Even your signature block shows that you don't "get it". Why do you claim
> "lead developer"? Does that make you better than all of the others? Or
> more important somehow? When is the last time Craig put "lead developer"
> in
> his signature block? Why doesn't Martin put "PMC Chair" under his name?
>
> Some people have misgivings about some kind of perceived power that comes
> with committership. As if the larger the project, the more power or
> influence. The real champions at Apache, or "lead developers" as you
> might
> put it, have earned the respect of others by helping out where it counts,
> not counting who has written more lines of code.
>
> And just to make it clear, when I say "champions", I'm NOT talking about
> committers. I'm NOT drawing a line down the middle of the page separating
> committers and non-committers as Dakota continues to claim. The Struts
> community is alive and well and will continue to thrive under our current
> leadership and "model" (as you say), proving yet again that it isn't so
> much
> about the code as it is about the community.
>
>
> --
> James Mitchell
> Software Engineer / Open Source Evangelist
> Consulting / Mentoring
> 678.910.8017
>
>
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>
>
--
"You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back."
~Dakota Jack~
Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Dakota Jack <da...@gmail.com>.
Lord, Al, do you realize you have just concluded that it is impossible to
fail to see what a product is or does from a website? This is not like
you. Usually you make sense. But, this is right along the lines of a
Newton (Dave) or a Mitchell (James). Oh, wait, it was Mitchell. LOL
Sorry, Al. I thought you had lost your mind.
On 3/23/06, Al Eridani <al...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 3/23/06, James Mitchell <jm...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> > You claim that someone who hits the website cannot understand what the
> > product is or does. How can you claim this unless you actually DO
> > understand what it is and therefore it must be confusing for someone who
> > doesn't.
>
> This is hilarious beyond words. More double-speak a la "we had to destroy
> the village in order to save it" (US Government, circa 1970).
>
> > Do you see the difference?
>
> Frankly, no. The difference between what and what?
>
> But, wait... probably you also think that to be able to claim that one
> cannot
> see the difference one must actually DO see the difference...
>
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>
--
"You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back."
~Dakota Jack~
Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Al Eridani <al...@gmail.com>.
On 3/23/06, James Mitchell <jm...@apache.org> wrote:
> You claim that someone who hits the website cannot understand what the
> product is or does. How can you claim this unless you actually DO
> understand what it is and therefore it must be confusing for someone who
> doesn't.
This is hilarious beyond words. More double-speak a la "we had to destroy
the village in order to save it" (US Government, circa 1970).
> Do you see the difference?
Frankly, no. The difference between what and what?
But, wait... probably you also think that to be able to claim that one cannot
see the difference one must actually DO see the difference...
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Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Dakota Jack <da...@gmail.com>.
Sometimes I wonder if you are just not working on too little horsepower,
James. Do you really, no kidding, honestly, think Jonathan was talking
about a business model here? If so, I apologize for arguing with you. If
not, try to be more genuine and to reply to what people are saying versus
these straw men you make up in your own mind.
<snip>
On 3/23/06, James Mitchell <jm...@apache.org> wrote:
>
>
> "Moreover, the fact that Struts was unable to stay competitive with
> Webwork even given the huge advantages you should have in terms of
> attracting collaborators, this seems to suggest that your model did not
> work very well."
>
> What model is that? You base your "opinion in good faith" on unfounded
> principals. The Apache way is not based on business models. Apache is
> NOT
> in the business of competing with anyone. Why do you (and others) keep
> suggesting different?
</snip>
--
"You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back."
~Dakota Jack~
Re: [FRIDAY] taking this discussion somewhere else
Posted by James Mitchell <jm...@apache.org>.
LMAO..I like this one:
http://www.rider.edu/suler/psycyber/listbulb.html
--
James Mitchell
EdgeTech, Inc.
http://edgetechservices.net/
678.910.8017
Skype: jmitchtx
On Mar 23, 2006, at 8:35 PM, Hey Nony Moose wrote:
> Hey Nony Moose wrote:
>
>> It's FRIDAY, have a bloody laugh for crying out loud!
>>
> here ... take your pick:
> http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&q=%22how+many%22+%22does+it
> +take+to+change+a+light+bulb%22&btnG=Google+Search&meta=
>
>
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Re: [FRIDAY] taking this discussion somewhere else
Posted by Hey Nony Moose <he...@liveonthe.net>.
Hey Nony Moose wrote:
>It's FRIDAY, have a bloody laugh for crying out loud!
>
here ... take your pick:
http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&q=%22how+many%22+%22does+it+take+to+change+a+light+bulb%22&btnG=Google+Search&meta=
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[NSC] taking this discussion somewhere else (was: has struts reached
the saturation)
Posted by Hey Nony Moose <he...@liveonthe.net>.
[NSC] = No Struts Content ... a tagging that I've seen used on other
lists ( N?C ) where ? = initial of the lists name
Emmanouil Batsis wrote:
> Hello,
> As a mortal user i would suggest that all this discussion to be taken
> somewhere else,
There have been a few similar calls for this. I already suggested taking
it to this forum:
http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/struts-dev/
but the members of that list might violently resist the infusion of grit
in their list.
> but i have a strong feeling that the motives behind this and many
> other thread posts during the last few months are actually fed by the
> visibility of the mailing list itself.
and I too think that's perhaps why it is still here. perhaps the more
enduring combatants want the discussion to *be* this publicly visible,
rather than in a quiet corner of the E.
I once even constructed a new userlist purely to house an OT flame war
on a public list, and not one person shifted camp. The commentators
notes were similar ... it was the notability of the list itself which
kept the flamers from leaving the venue.
(To all, not specifically Emmanouil)
I think DJ has a credible point, HILODMWWASPE (hidden in lashings of
decorative malice, which we all somehow perversely enjoy). Use your
filters. And ignore threads (noobs: if you're not thread-keen, think
"subject") that you *know* contain this debate. Go on! live a little!
delete an email without reading it, based only on the subject or the
sender!!! it's quite therapeutic.
Microsoft Moose (NOT!)
It's FRIDAY, have a bloody laugh for crying out loud! (er that's right,
you TITS (There In The States) are half a spin of the earth behind The
Clever Country, it's probably thursday night.) :)
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Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Emmanouil Batsis <Em...@eurodyn.com>.
Hello,
As a mortal user i would suggest that all this discussion to be taken
somewhere else, but i have a strong feeling that the motives behind this
and many other thread posts during the last few months are actually fed
by the visibility of the mailing list itself.
Anyway, just wanted to say the noise in some threads makes it impossible
to filter the actual info in them. I think thats where the value of the
thread largely degrades making it useless (well, for me at least).
Manos
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Re: It's about basic human standards of behavior to some extent
Posted by Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es>.
Dave Newton wrote:
> Jonathan Revusky wrote:
>
>>Maybe that's what you meant to say but you didn't have the intestinal
>>fortitude to say it so you posted the asinine stuff about a patch.
>
>
> Oooo! Me! Me! Pick me!
>
> Put up or shut up!
>
> I'm leaning towards the "shut up" myself, but that didn't work years ago
> on the Velocity list, either :/
>
>>Let's get some first principles clear here. I do not owe you anything.
>>I have no recollection of ever having incurred an obligation to you or
>>your colleagues in any way whatsoever.
>
>
> Hey, guess what--the Struts committers don't owe _us_ anything, either!
James was very insistently asking me why I didn't work on this or that.
He was talking quite literally like I owed him something. And that was
when I pointed out that I didn't owe him anything.
I was not asking James for anything.
Well, I did suggest that he "owed" me a "thank you". But that's more to
do with basic graciousness and so on.
>
>
>>But James, here is how a well brought up adult reacts when somebody
>>offers him something.
>>
>>He says "thank you".
>
>
> Not if I offer anthrax or a kick in the nards... really depends on what
> is being offered and how.
Even then you might as well say "No, thank you." It's better to be
polite. :-)
Jonathan Revusky
--
lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/
>
>
>>This public thread has fostered some private correspondence where
>>people just say stuff to me like: "My god what a disastrous state
>>this Struts project is in". There are a lot of people who think this.
>
>
> There are a lot of people that think you're a dork, too, as evidenced by
> _my_ mailbox, including a couple of folks that remember the Velocity
> list BS, too.
>
>
>>Note that, given your behavior, if I did once care, by this point, I
>>would have given this up as a lost cause and not care any more. That
>>much is for sure.
>
>
> So you don't care and are participating in your own mental masturbation?
>
>
>>The interesting question is why anybody would offer you guys anything
>>at all. Basically, the lot of you behave like an ungracious, ill-bred
>>bunch of punks.
>
>
> Towards you and a few select others, perhaps. It isn't really the
> prevalent attitude, though.
>
>
>>This is already getting too long.
>
>
> That, at least, is indisputable.
>
> Dave
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Re: It's about basic human standards of behavior to some extent
Posted by Dave Newton <ne...@pingsite.com>.
Jonathan Revusky wrote:
> Maybe that's what you meant to say but you didn't have the intestinal
> fortitude to say it so you posted the asinine stuff about a patch.
Oooo! Me! Me! Pick me!
Put up or shut up!
I'm leaning towards the "shut up" myself, but that didn't work years ago
on the Velocity list, either :/
> Let's get some first principles clear here. I do not owe you anything.
> I have no recollection of ever having incurred an obligation to you or
> your colleagues in any way whatsoever.
Hey, guess what--the Struts committers don't owe _us_ anything, either!
> But James, here is how a well brought up adult reacts when somebody
> offers him something.
>
> He says "thank you".
Not if I offer anthrax or a kick in the nards... really depends on what
is being offered and how.
> This public thread has fostered some private correspondence where
> people just say stuff to me like: "My god what a disastrous state
> this Struts project is in". There are a lot of people who think this.
There are a lot of people that think you're a dork, too, as evidenced by
_my_ mailbox, including a couple of folks that remember the Velocity
list BS, too.
> Note that, given your behavior, if I did once care, by this point, I
> would have given this up as a lost cause and not care any more. That
> much is for sure.
So you don't care and are participating in your own mental masturbation?
> The interesting question is why anybody would offer you guys anything
> at all. Basically, the lot of you behave like an ungracious, ill-bred
> bunch of punks.
Towards you and a few select others, perhaps. It isn't really the
prevalent attitude, though.
> This is already getting too long.
That, at least, is indisputable.
Dave
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Re: It's about basic human standards of behavior to some extent
Posted by Antonio Petrelli <br...@tariffenet.it>.
Jonathan Revusky ha scritto:
> James Mitchell wrote:
>> blah
>>
> blah
Will you stop to flood this mailing list and continue this flame war in
your private mail boxes, please? I think we all had enough of this.
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It's about basic human standards of behavior to some extent
Posted by Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es>.
James Mitchell wrote:
>>> Jonathan, I can't seem to find your patch to fix the website anywhere
>>> in bugzilla. Can you point me to it?
>>
>>
>> James, I understand that this is some kind of attempt at sarcasm. The
>> problem is that you're obviously not really thinking about what you're
>> saying.
>
>
> Oh, maybe you are right. What I really meant to say is "put up or shut
> up".
Maybe that's what you meant to say but you didn't have the intestinal
fortitude to say it so you posted the asinine stuff about a patch.
What I was commenting on, the confused message of the front web page is
not a closed-ended technical issue that could ever be resolved by
submitting a patch and you knew that. The comment about a patch was not
made in good faith.
> The only excuse for not helping is not knowing how or not having
> time. And we have the "how" covered under the FAQ link, and since you
> are obviously a very successful part of Freemarker, I doubt this fits
> you. So, again, why have you not offerred to help explain things
> better?
Let's get some first principles clear here. I do not owe you anything. I
have no recollection of ever having incurred an obligation to you or
your colleagues in any way whatsoever. Some Struts users do use Struts
in conjunction with FreeMarker, so I have some interest in what is going
on in connected things in this space but I have never used Struts
professionally.
So, the basic tone of: "why haven't you done this or that yet?" is
utterly and completely misplaced.
I do not even have to give you any feedback on your web page whatsoever.
But I did. I did something potentially helpful that I did not have to
do. Very simply put: I don't owe you anything.
But James, here is how a well brought up adult reacts when somebody
offers him something.
He says "thank you".
I really suggest that the next time somebody gives you any feedback on
your work, this is the first thing you should make sure to say:
"Thank you."
These are very basic human standards of behavior.
This public thread has fostered some private correspondence where people
just say stuff to me like: "My god what a disastrous state this Struts
project is in". There are a lot of people who think this.
Now, finally, watching you guys in action, I have come to the conclusion
that, basically, the behavior here does not meet basic human standards.
I guess a lot of it is immaturity, people who haven't learned to handle
criticism.
But, as a practical matter, if you behave like this, who on earth is
ever going to give you any feedback on your website or anything else for
that matter?
It is my considered opinion that if you develop anything, be it software
or the website that describes the software or anything else, and you cut
yourself off from considering any people's feedback, your activity will
revert into something that is basically masturbatory.
> Did you just come here to complain?
In the case we are discussing, I offered some good-faithed feedback
regarding the front page of struts.apache.org. Actually, Henri Yandell
explicitly asked me what I thought was wrong with the page and I told
him. I thought it proper to answer his question. I believed he was
asking the question in good faith and I answered the question in good
faith.
>
> Trust me, your complaints do not affect the compensation I get from the
> ASF. I am richly rewarded for my contributions. In fact, I still get
> dividends from time to time. Just the other day I got an email from
> someone thanking me for helping with a particularly difficult issue they
> had struggled with until Google landed them on a response I had made a
> few months back, which helped them get to a solution much faster than
> they would have on their own. That's my currency.
>
>
>> Let's try to deconstruct what you're saying implicitly:
>>
>> A potential user hits your website and cannot, on the basis of the
>> text there, understand what the product is or does.
>
>
> I see, so you speak for EVERYONE now, correct?
James, this is surely a straw man. When did I say that I speak for
everybody? Whatever I say is just my opinion. It so happens that on this
and some other matters, I know that some people agree with me. But no, I
just speak for myself.
>
>> You seem to be suggesting that this very same individual should offer
>> a patch to fix this issue.
>
>
> That's not what I said.
Whatever you said, you did ask me where my patch was. If I consider your
explanation of what Struts is to be unclear, I am supposed to offer a
patch that defines *your* project.
This is not reasonable by any stretch of the imagination. In any case,
you know it was not reasonable. It was an exercise in sarcasm.
>
> You claim that someone who hits the website cannot understand what the
> product is or does. How can you claim this unless you actually DO
> understand what it is and therefore it must be confusing for someone who
> doesn't. Do you see the difference?
No, that doesn't follow logically. Think about it a sec, James. I don't
have to understand what something is in order to draw the conclusion
that the explanation of it wouldn't be understood by most people.
>
> Furthermore, for you to even suggest that this is confusing means that
> you actually do care about what people think about Struts. Am I wrong?
Yeah, bzzt! Wrong again. I said to Henri Yandell what I said because he
asked me the question. And I answered.
Anyway, I could comment on the weather. It doesn't mean that I care that
much about it or what people think about it. In the course of a
conversation, I said what I thought about something. It doesn't imply I
care all that much one way or the other.
Note that, given your behavior, if I did once care, by this point, I
would have given this up as a lost cause and not care any more. That
much is for sure.
> If not, then why have you only offerred criticism and not a patch?
The interesting question is why anybody would offer you guys anything at
all. Basically, the lot of you behave like an ungracious, ill-bred bunch
of punks.
The criticism is that the text does not explain what the thing is. I
cannot take it on myself to explain what Struts is. And again, I don't
owe you that or anything else. Whatever I offer you is more than I need
to offer.
This is already getting too long. In the part I snipped, you say I don't
get it and so on. I don't honestly see on what basis you think you can
lecture me about getting it or not. It is clear to anybody who looks
into who I am and things I've done that I actually have significant
experience of open source software development. Well, I guess the point
of arguing that I don't get it, is to let yourself (and your buddies)
off the hook. "This guy just doesn't get it so we can shut our ears to
whatever he's saying."
Fine, live in your own masturbatory reality. Fine, Everybody visits
struts.apache.org and understands immediately what struts is from the
text there. If you say so, dude. What do I care? No skin off my back.
You're only damaging yourselves.
Regards,
Jonathan Revusky
--
lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/
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Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by James Mitchell <jm...@apache.org>.
>> Jonathan, I can't seem to find your patch to fix the website anywhere in
>> bugzilla. Can you point me to it?
>
> James, I understand that this is some kind of attempt at sarcasm. The
> problem is that you're obviously not really thinking about what you're
> saying.
Oh, maybe you are right. What I really meant to say is "put up or shut up".
The only excuse for not helping is not knowing how or not having time. And
we have the "how" covered under the FAQ link, and since you are obviously a
very successful part of Freemarker, I doubt this fits you. So, again, why
have you not offerred to help explain things better? Did you just come here
to complain?
Trust me, your complaints do not affect the compensation I get from the ASF.
I am richly rewarded for my contributions. In fact, I still get dividends
from time to time. Just the other day I got an email from someone thanking
me for helping with a particularly difficult issue they had struggled with
until Google landed them on a response I had made a few months back, which
helped them get to a solution much faster than they would have on their own.
That's my currency.
> Let's try to deconstruct what you're saying implicitly:
>
> A potential user hits your website and cannot, on the basis of the text
> there, understand what the product is or does.
I see, so you speak for EVERYONE now, correct?
> You seem to be suggesting that this very same individual should offer a
> patch to fix this issue.
That's not what I said.
You claim that someone who hits the website cannot understand what the
product is or does. How can you claim this unless you actually DO
understand what it is and therefore it must be confusing for someone who
doesn't. Do you see the difference?
Furthermore, for you to even suggest that this is confusing means that you
actually do care about what people think about Struts. Am I wrong? If not,
then why have you only offerred criticism and not a patch?
>
> Or in other words:
>
> The "bug" that a person reports is that the text on a website is basically
> incomprehensible. He doesn't understand what you're talking about. So he
> offers a patch so that *HE* now will understand WTF *YOU* are talking
> about.
See above explanation.
>
> Do you see the basis for Monty Python skit here?
To use your own words, "Well, yeah... blah blah".
>
> Look, James, obviously it is up to the Struts people to explain clearly
> what their product is.
No, it isn't. As Ted and others have explain NUMEROUS times in the past.
We are here to scratch an itch!!!!! We are here to build the software that
WE want to use for OUR projects. It just so happens that a few of us spend
some extra time on documentation. We are NOT obligated to do so. If I'm
wrong, then I must have missed that section in the ASF guidelines or bylaws.
Maybe if we were JBoss Inc. or Spring21 we might have paid staff to keep the
docs all prettified and such.
>
> Henri asked me specifically to say what my criticism of the website was
> and I answered the question. I just said that you have to reconsider the
> audience that the site is oriented towards.
Aha, see, you do care.
>
> Do you think I'm wrong about this?
>
> Whether you do or not, should people who offer their opinion in good faith
> ...
LMAO! Is that what you call it?
> ... be subjected to this kind of lame, moronic sarcasm? To me, this just
> doesn't seem like adult behavior.
I see, well, among the more moronic things I've seen you say here more than
once include:
"Moreover, the fact that Struts was unable to stay competitive with
Webwork even given the huge advantages you should have in terms of
attracting collaborators, this seems to suggest that your model did not
work very well."
What model is that? You base your "opinion in good faith" on unfounded
principals. The Apache way is not based on business models. Apache is NOT
in the business of competing with anyone. Why do you (and others) keep
suggesting different?
>
> Regards,
>
> Jonathan Revusky
> --
> lead developer, FreeMarker project
Even your signature block shows that you don't "get it". Why do you claim
"lead developer"? Does that make you better than all of the others? Or
more important somehow? When is the last time Craig put "lead developer" in
his signature block? Why doesn't Martin put "PMC Chair" under his name?
Some people have misgivings about some kind of perceived power that comes
with committership. As if the larger the project, the more power or
influence. The real champions at Apache, or "lead developers" as you might
put it, have earned the respect of others by helping out where it counts,
not counting who has written more lines of code.
And just to make it clear, when I say "champions", I'm NOT talking about
committers. I'm NOT drawing a line down the middle of the page separating
committers and non-committers as Dakota continues to claim. The Struts
community is alive and well and will continue to thrive under our current
leadership and "model" (as you say), proving yet again that it isn't so much
about the code as it is about the community.
--
James Mitchell
Software Engineer / Open Source Evangelist
Consulting / Mentoring
678.910.8017
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Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es>.
James Mitchell wrote:
> Jonathan, I can't seem to find your patch to fix the website anywhere in
> bugzilla. Can you point me to it?
James, I understand that this is some kind of attempt at sarcasm. The
problem is that you're obviously not really thinking about what you're
saying. Let's try to deconstruct what you're saying implicitly:
A potential user hits your website and cannot, on the basis of the text
there, understand what the product is or does. You seem to be suggesting
that this very same individual should offer a patch to fix this issue.
Or in other words:
The "bug" that a person reports is that the text on a website is
basically incomprehensible. He doesn't understand what you're talking
about. So he offers a patch so that *HE* now will understand WTF *YOU*
are talking about.
Do you see the basis for Monty Python skit here?
Look, James, obviously it is up to the Struts people to explain clearly
what their product is.
Henri asked me specifically to say what my criticism of the website was
and I answered the question. I just said that you have to reconsider the
audience that the site is oriented towards.
Do you think I'm wrong about this?
Whether you do or not, should people who offer their opinion in good
faith be subjected to this kind of lame, moronic sarcasm? To me, this
just doesn't seem like adult behavior.
Regards,
Jonathan Revusky
--
lead developer, FreeMarker project
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jonathan Revusky" <re...@wanadoo.es>
> To: <us...@struts.apache.org>
> Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2006 5:29 AM
> Subject: Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
>
>
>> Henri Yandell wrote:
>>
>>> On 3/22/06, Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Henri Yandell wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> foo.apache.org maps to a PMC, which maps to a coding community, not to
>>>>> a codebase.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Henri, I feel I should give you a bit of end-user feedback. I am not
>>>> active in any apache.org projects, but, obviously, it happens quite
>>>> frequently that I go visit the front page of a given apache.org
>>>> project,
>>>> to check it out for whatever needs I have at that moment.
>>>> ´
>>>> FYI, when I visit foo.apache.org, I am not there for the PMC or
>>>> whatever
>>>> ASF bureaucratic construct. I'm there for the code.
>>>>
>>>> In general, when I visit the front page of a project, I like to be able
>>>> to figure out what the thing is fairly quickly. This is definitely a
>>>> problem with Struts currently.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> So that's a website issue ie) how to join/find the community rather
>>> than an issue in how the community itself is structured.
>>>
>>> Do you have suggestions to improve the Struts website so that things
>>> are more clear? There's not a website at the ASF that couldn't be made
>>> a bit clearer.
>>
>>
>> Well, just go to http://struts.apache.org/ and look at it and imagine
>> that you don't know anything about what struts is. I put it to you
>> that the reader who hits your front page should not be supposed to
>> know what the thing is.
>>
>> What is strange about it is that whoever wrote the page tacitly
>> recognizes that it is a confused jumble and spends most of the page
>> trying to rationalize it. "Why two frameworks?" followed by "Why so
>> many subprojects?" What is also patently obvious is that the two
>> rhetorical questions are posed on the page, and never, AFAICS,
>> answered satisfactorily.
>>
>> And then the text there just assumes all kinds of insider knowledge
>> that the reader of the front page really IMHO should not be assumed to
>> know.
>>
>> Now, you can go look at the page, Henri, and maybe you think it's
>> okay. If you do think the whole thing is really A-OK, then we have a
>> difference of opinion. Here is the basis of it:
>>
>> Who is the intended audience for this text?
>>
>> I guess we have different answers for that.
>>
>> (I could almost characterize it as that the author's intended audience
>> in "Why two frameworks?" and so on is himself!)
>>
>> I don't think this is a problem of website organization. The website
>> problem _reflects_ a deeper problem.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Jonathan Revusky
>> --
>> lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>> So:
>>>>>
>>>>> If Shale, Struts 1.x and Struts 2.x are being developed by the same
>>>>> community -
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Nah, my understanding is that this isn't really the case. There is a
>>>> Struts 1.x which is basically in maintenance mode. There is a Struts
>>>> Action Framework 2.x which is basically Webwork (until recently a
>>>> completely separate *competing* product developed outside of ASF) and
>>>> that's a completely separate team at the moment.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Right, so two communities merging. This is all good - it's probably
>>> natural that you'll see the old hands maintaining the 1.2/1.3 releases
>>> instead of the Webwork guys, but who knows. Plus there will be new
>>> committers, maybe some who just focus on 1.3 because the community
>>> wants to keep it alive.
>>>
>>>
>>>> And Shale is something
>>>> with a completely different approach, and I assume, has a separate
>>>> team.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Team-wise, everybody in Struts has access to all the code. They're
>>> also using the same mailing list, and are components in the same
>>> Bugzilla project. All great ways to keep the community together.
>>>
>>> Looking at viewcvs quickly; I immediately see overlap. People
>>> committing to shale who are committing to action-1; and the same for
>>> action-2. There will definitely be a focus for each person - but it's
>>> easy to see cross-pollination at work.
>>>
>>> Struts is a cool community. The users are actively involved, in terms
>>> of answering and asking; people obviously care about the community -
>>> as shown by both your and Dakota's questions and by the desire of the
>>> committers to work to keep things together; and there's an active
>>> future happening plus legacy being actively maintained by both
>>> contributors and committers.
>>>
>>> Yes, shale and action might move apart as the months/years go by and
>>> at some point they might want to separate, but right now it doesn't
>>> look like an unhealthy situation to me. These things tend to evolve
>>> quite happily - someone like yourself raises a question of whether
>>> it's time to make an evolutionary leap, and the community responds. In
>>> the case of this thread I think it's not time for the leap.
>>>
>>> Hen
>>
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>> For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
>>
>>
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Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by James Mitchell <jm...@apache.org>.
Jonathan, I can't seem to find your patch to fix the website anywhere in
bugzilla. Can you point me to it?
--
James Mitchell
Software Engineer / Open Source Evangelist
Consulting / Mentoring
678.910.8017
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jonathan Revusky" <re...@wanadoo.es>
To: <us...@struts.apache.org>
Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2006 5:29 AM
Subject: Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
> Henri Yandell wrote:
>> On 3/22/06, Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es> wrote:
>>
>>>Henri Yandell wrote:
>>>
>>>>foo.apache.org maps to a PMC, which maps to a coding community, not to
>>>>a codebase.
>>>
>>>Henri, I feel I should give you a bit of end-user feedback. I am not
>>>active in any apache.org projects, but, obviously, it happens quite
>>>frequently that I go visit the front page of a given apache.org project,
>>>to check it out for whatever needs I have at that moment.
>>>´
>>>FYI, when I visit foo.apache.org, I am not there for the PMC or whatever
>>>ASF bureaucratic construct. I'm there for the code.
>>>
>>>In general, when I visit the front page of a project, I like to be able
>>>to figure out what the thing is fairly quickly. This is definitely a
>>>problem with Struts currently.
>>
>>
>> So that's a website issue ie) how to join/find the community rather
>> than an issue in how the community itself is structured.
>>
>> Do you have suggestions to improve the Struts website so that things
>> are more clear? There's not a website at the ASF that couldn't be made
>> a bit clearer.
>
> Well, just go to http://struts.apache.org/ and look at it and imagine that
> you don't know anything about what struts is. I put it to you that the
> reader who hits your front page should not be supposed to know what the
> thing is.
>
> What is strange about it is that whoever wrote the page tacitly recognizes
> that it is a confused jumble and spends most of the page trying to
> rationalize it. "Why two frameworks?" followed by "Why so many
> subprojects?" What is also patently obvious is that the two rhetorical
> questions are posed on the page, and never, AFAICS, answered
> satisfactorily.
>
> And then the text there just assumes all kinds of insider knowledge that
> the reader of the front page really IMHO should not be assumed to know.
>
> Now, you can go look at the page, Henri, and maybe you think it's okay. If
> you do think the whole thing is really A-OK, then we have a difference of
> opinion. Here is the basis of it:
>
> Who is the intended audience for this text?
>
> I guess we have different answers for that.
>
> (I could almost characterize it as that the author's intended audience in
> "Why two frameworks?" and so on is himself!)
>
> I don't think this is a problem of website organization. The website
> problem _reflects_ a deeper problem.
>
> Regards,
>
> Jonathan Revusky
> --
> lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/
>
>>
>>
>>>>So:
>>>>
>>>>If Shale, Struts 1.x and Struts 2.x are being developed by the same
>>>>community -
>>>
>>>Nah, my understanding is that this isn't really the case. There is a
>>>Struts 1.x which is basically in maintenance mode. There is a Struts
>>>Action Framework 2.x which is basically Webwork (until recently a
>>>completely separate *competing* product developed outside of ASF) and
>>>that's a completely separate team at the moment.
>>
>>
>> Right, so two communities merging. This is all good - it's probably
>> natural that you'll see the old hands maintaining the 1.2/1.3 releases
>> instead of the Webwork guys, but who knows. Plus there will be new
>> committers, maybe some who just focus on 1.3 because the community
>> wants to keep it alive.
>>
>>
>>>And Shale is something
>>>with a completely different approach, and I assume, has a separate team.
>>
>>
>> Team-wise, everybody in Struts has access to all the code. They're
>> also using the same mailing list, and are components in the same
>> Bugzilla project. All great ways to keep the community together.
>>
>> Looking at viewcvs quickly; I immediately see overlap. People
>> committing to shale who are committing to action-1; and the same for
>> action-2. There will definitely be a focus for each person - but it's
>> easy to see cross-pollination at work.
>>
>> Struts is a cool community. The users are actively involved, in terms
>> of answering and asking; people obviously care about the community -
>> as shown by both your and Dakota's questions and by the desire of the
>> committers to work to keep things together; and there's an active
>> future happening plus legacy being actively maintained by both
>> contributors and committers.
>>
>> Yes, shale and action might move apart as the months/years go by and
>> at some point they might want to separate, but right now it doesn't
>> look like an unhealthy situation to me. These things tend to evolve
>> quite happily - someone like yourself raises a question of whether
>> it's time to make an evolutionary leap, and the community responds. In
>> the case of this thread I think it's not time for the leap.
>>
>> Hen
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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> For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
>
>
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Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es>.
Henri Yandell wrote:
> On 3/22/06, Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es> wrote:
>
>>Henri Yandell wrote:
>>
>>>foo.apache.org maps to a PMC, which maps to a coding community, not to
>>>a codebase.
>>
>>Henri, I feel I should give you a bit of end-user feedback. I am not
>>active in any apache.org projects, but, obviously, it happens quite
>>frequently that I go visit the front page of a given apache.org project,
>>to check it out for whatever needs I have at that moment.
>>´
>>FYI, when I visit foo.apache.org, I am not there for the PMC or whatever
>>ASF bureaucratic construct. I'm there for the code.
>>
>>In general, when I visit the front page of a project, I like to be able
>>to figure out what the thing is fairly quickly. This is definitely a
>>problem with Struts currently.
>
>
> So that's a website issue ie) how to join/find the community rather
> than an issue in how the community itself is structured.
>
> Do you have suggestions to improve the Struts website so that things
> are more clear? There's not a website at the ASF that couldn't be made
> a bit clearer.
Well, just go to http://struts.apache.org/ and look at it and imagine
that you don't know anything about what struts is. I put it to you that
the reader who hits your front page should not be supposed to know what
the thing is.
What is strange about it is that whoever wrote the page tacitly
recognizes that it is a confused jumble and spends most of the page
trying to rationalize it. "Why two frameworks?" followed by "Why so many
subprojects?" What is also patently obvious is that the two rhetorical
questions are posed on the page, and never, AFAICS, answered satisfactorily.
And then the text there just assumes all kinds of insider knowledge that
the reader of the front page really IMHO should not be assumed to know.
Now, you can go look at the page, Henri, and maybe you think it's okay.
If you do think the whole thing is really A-OK, then we have a
difference of opinion. Here is the basis of it:
Who is the intended audience for this text?
I guess we have different answers for that.
(I could almost characterize it as that the author's intended audience
in "Why two frameworks?" and so on is himself!)
I don't think this is a problem of website organization. The website
problem _reflects_ a deeper problem.
Regards,
Jonathan Revusky
--
lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/
>
>
>>>So:
>>>
>>>If Shale, Struts 1.x and Struts 2.x are being developed by the same
>>>community -
>>
>>Nah, my understanding is that this isn't really the case. There is a
>>Struts 1.x which is basically in maintenance mode. There is a Struts
>>Action Framework 2.x which is basically Webwork (until recently a
>>completely separate *competing* product developed outside of ASF) and
>>that's a completely separate team at the moment.
>
>
> Right, so two communities merging. This is all good - it's probably
> natural that you'll see the old hands maintaining the 1.2/1.3 releases
> instead of the Webwork guys, but who knows. Plus there will be new
> committers, maybe some who just focus on 1.3 because the community
> wants to keep it alive.
>
>
>>And Shale is something
>>with a completely different approach, and I assume, has a separate team.
>
>
> Team-wise, everybody in Struts has access to all the code. They're
> also using the same mailing list, and are components in the same
> Bugzilla project. All great ways to keep the community together.
>
> Looking at viewcvs quickly; I immediately see overlap. People
> committing to shale who are committing to action-1; and the same for
> action-2. There will definitely be a focus for each person - but it's
> easy to see cross-pollination at work.
>
> Struts is a cool community. The users are actively involved, in terms
> of answering and asking; people obviously care about the community -
> as shown by both your and Dakota's questions and by the desire of the
> committers to work to keep things together; and there's an active
> future happening plus legacy being actively maintained by both
> contributors and committers.
>
> Yes, shale and action might move apart as the months/years go by and
> at some point they might want to separate, but right now it doesn't
> look like an unhealthy situation to me. These things tend to evolve
> quite happily - someone like yourself raises a question of whether
> it's time to make an evolutionary leap, and the community responds. In
> the case of this thread I think it's not time for the leap.
>
> Hen
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Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Niall Pemberton <ni...@gmail.com>.
On 3/23/06, Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es> wrote:
> Niall Pemberton wrote:
> >
> > I don't believe this is true - from what I see Jonathan Revusky's only
> > desire is to see the demise of Apache -
>
> Very good, Niall. Since you're so good at reading my mind, could you
> tell me how I plan to bring this about?
It wasn't your mind I read, it was your blog. Is it not a reasonable
representation of your attitude then?
> Now, concretely, I just responded to Henri Yandell's question about the
> website. Would you prefer that I refrain from other similar comments? If
> you request that I refrain from further such criticism, I will respect
> your request.
Constructive criticism has value and is welcome. Unfortunately, as I
said previously, the valid points you make are lost in the noise.
Niall
> Regards,
>
> Jonathan Revusky
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Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Dave Newton <ne...@pingsite.com>.
Dakota Jack wrote:
> As to the rest, so far as I can tell, you are the troll, my friend.
>
*rotflmao*
And I am most certainly NOT your friend.
Dave
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Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Dakota Jack <da...@gmail.com>.
Turns out you were talking about, as I understand you, code in company as
opposed to code on an open source project. This is totally irrelevant. The
issue is not whether there are people who make mistakes in companies. The
issue is about open source. Those are not the same. So, do you have any
experience, as you suggested, with the relevant matter, viz., open source,
as indicated?
As to the rest, so far as I can tell, you are the troll, my friend.
On 3/24/06, Dave Newton <ne...@pingsite.com> wrote:
>
> Dakota Jack wrote:
> > I flat don't believe this. Who, what, where, when, etc?
> >
>
> Uh... you're saying you don't believe I've managed and/or worked on
> large projects at large companies?
>
> Or you're saying that you don't believe that I've had (occasionally
> _substantial_) issues with sub-standard coders having commit rights to
> said projects (which I would think is a no-brainer)? (Two good ones pop
> immediately to mind: why is the laser printer printing everything as a
> mirror image? Hint: it's not a printer setting, and it's somewhere in
> that 1.2 million lines of C and C++ code. Why does Beavis occasionally
> hover 8-16 pixels above the ground under certain pad inputs combined
> with one of two specific moving obstacles? That's somewhere in 16K of
> self-modifying Z80 assembly language. Ooo, how about trying to fix a
> 300-line lisp macro written by somebody else that really didn't know
> lisp? Or the completely undocumented 64K of 8051 assembly and C pump
> control system that wanted a pressure compensation algorithm but it was
> kind of hard to tell which of the multi-processors you needed to add the
> code to? Or the cereal boxer written in Forth that would occasionally
> (think 8-bit overflow) shoot cereal more or less everywhere?)
>
> NOT EVERYONE SHOULD HAVE COMMIT ACCESS. Non-trivial things can happen
> when they do.
>
> Either way, why on EARTH would I give a shit what you think? I've been
> doing this for 20 years in essentially every major software field there
> is (and about 10 years non-professionally before that) and somehow I've
> managed not to alienate nearly every user of this list and still be a
> pretty good programmer. Somehow I manage to not threaten people with
> lawsuits if they call me a name.
>
> Tell me why I should care what you think, 'cuz I'm having problems with
> this one.
>
> And for those of you flooding me with "don't feed the troll" emails, I
> know... but now "Dakota Jack" is directly questioning my honesty and my
> history, which I do _not_ take kindly to. I am many, many things, not
> all good, but a person who does not speak the truth is not among those
> things. I spend most of my non-computer time in a dojo where them's
> fightin' words.
>
> Dave
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
>
--
"You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back."
~Dakota Jack~
Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Dakota Jack <da...@gmail.com>.
Again, sigh, this is irrelevant. This is so off the topic and the point.
How you could think this is relevant is truly a mystery.
On 3/24/06, Dave Newton <ne...@pingsite.com> wrote:
>
> Dakota Jack wrote:
> > I flat don't believe this. Who, what, where, when, etc?
> >
>
> This isn't me (although I did fix an essentially identical bug in an
> internal webapp at Morgan Stanley (who), an Action instance variable
> (what), in Morristown (where), spring 2004 (when), because they paid me
> (why), by putting the data into a synchronized map (how) although I
> believe eventually they changed the structure of the app to eliminate
> the need for that (it was a quick fix for an emergency problem: "this
> works almost all the time, but under load we occasionally get corrupted
> data"-a-thon).
>
> http://www.thedailywtf.com/
>
> Today's is "the cost of static."
>
> Anybody who thinks anyone should have commit access... feel free to walk
> around tdwtf, marvel, and pat yourself on the back for being better than
> some of the stories there (I hope :)
>
> Dave
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
>
--
"You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back."
~Dakota Jack~
Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Dakota Jack <da...@gmail.com>.
The "bar" to committing on Struts is NOT the issue. The issue is the mess.
I cannot agree more with Jonathan. It is soooo good to hear from someone
who sounds mature and sensible.
On 3/23/06, Dave Newton <ne...@pingsite.com> wrote:
>
> Jonathan Revusky wrote:
> > I already am spending too much time on this [...]
>
> Agreed.
>
> > 2. I know that there is significant animosity towards me here [...]
>
> My animosity towards you is from years ago, actually; I won't speak for
> anybody else.
>
> > From whence???? From whence???? Is the Shakespearean festival nigh?
>
> Ooo! A zinger! Forsooth!
>
> > It's just mind-boggling to be trying to answer this kind of question
> > really....
>
> I imagine that it is, for you... trying to imagine how an open-source
> project that was developed for somebody else's use might not be
> obligated to listen to anybody else.
>
> >> It appears as though you believe that if someone is willing and able to
> >> pitch in that they should have commit rights, which is not really the
> >> same thing.
> > As a practical matter, it basically means giving people commit rights.
> > Trying to let people work on stuff while keeping them at arm's length
> > just is unlikely to work for long. If you're going to let someone do
> > some work, yeah, you have to open the door and let them in.
>
> I really don't believe we're so far apart on this: I think the bar for
> commiting to Struts is too high as well. At the same time, I would
> definitely _not_ give commit rights to anybody that asked for them, and
> the project would be better off for it.
>
> Even in the limited scope of this mailing list I have seen some pretty
> frightening code--I would _not_ want the authors of said code to be able
> to inject similar code into the project, and I would _not_ want to have
> to surf the repository regularly to remove or fix it.
>
> > At the moment, I think it is mostly because this whole dysfunctional
> > scene exerts a morbid fascination on me. It's actually funny in a very
> > dark humor sort of way, you know.
>
> On this we are in perfect agreement :)
>
> Dave
>
>
>
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>
>
--
"You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back."
~Dakota Jack~
Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Dakota Jack <da...@gmail.com>.
I don't think you see, Steve, that this sardonic cuteness misses the whole
point. While you seem to think you have it all going on, this in fact is
inane. No one in their right mind without some political in or position
would take much time to contribute to Struts, because the process is
completely bankrupt.
On 3/24/06, Steve Raeburn <sr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I have an idea. Why don't we publish the source code to Struts so that
> absolutely anyone can contribute to the project. You are right that
> we'll need a review process for all those contributions. So why don't we
> require all incoming code to be reviewed by at least one experienced
> developer before it is added to the code base. After a while, developers
> will earn a level of trust and we can relax the review requirement to
> only happen after the code is updated.
>
> Thanks for the advice. We should implement this new process right away.
>
> Steve
>
> Jonathan Revusky wrote:
> > Dave Newton wrote:
> >> Dakota Jack wrote:
> >>
> >>> I flat don't believe this. Who, what, where, when, etc?
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >> This isn't me (although I did fix an essentially identical bug in an
> >> internal webapp at Morgan Stanley (who), an Action instance variable
> >> (what), in Morristown (where), spring 2004 (when), because they paid me
> >> (why), by putting the data into a synchronized map (how) although I
> >> believe eventually they changed the structure of the app to eliminate
> >> the need for that (it was a quick fix for an emergency problem: "this
> >> works almost all the time, but under load we occasionally get corrupted
> >> data"-a-thon).
> >>
> >> http://www.thedailywtf.com/
> >>
> >> Today's is "the cost of static."
> >
> >
> > I just visited the above link and read the article and I don't see how
> > this can be presented as evidence against a more open collaborative
> > model. Basically it's the story of a bug. Somebody made a mistake.
> > People will make mistakes regardless. Also, the bug occurred, as far
> > as I can see, in a closed source commercial codebase, so it's not
> > clear to me how this is relevant at all.
> >
> > I have said repeatedly at this point that I assume that code committed
> > by newbie committers would be reviewed. In principle, a bug like the
> > one described in that article would be caught at that point. But
> > another point about this is that having more people in the code could
> > decrease the mean life expectancy of such bugs because of the
> > phenomenon of more eyeballs.
> >
> > Jonathan Revusky
> > --
> > lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/
> >
> >>
> >> Anybody who thinks anyone should have commit access... feel free to
> walk
> >> around tdwtf, marvel, and pat yourself on the back for being better
> than
> >> some of the stories there (I hope :)
> >>
> >> Dave
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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> > For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
> >
> >
>
>
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>
--
"You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back."
~Dakota Jack~
Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Dakota Jack <da...@gmail.com>.
Good God, Michael, he was trying to be sarcastic and only reached sardonic
but fooled you. Do you actually think a lightbulb like Raeburn would be
agreeing with Revusky? Don't you realize that Raeburn is another one of
"DOH" bunch?
On 3/24/06, Michael Jouravlev <jm...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 3/24/06, Steve Raeburn <sr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > I have an idea. Why don't we publish the source code to Struts so that
> > absolutely anyone can contribute to the project. You are right that
> > we'll need a review process for all those contributions. So why don't we
> > require all incoming code to be reviewed by at least one experienced
> > developer before it is added to the code base. After a while, developers
> > will earn a level of trust and we can relax the review requirement to
> > only happen after the code is updated.
> >
> > Thanks for the advice. We should implement this new process right away.
> >
> > Steve
>
> Does not it work like this already? Someone opens up a Bugzilla ticket
> and puts up code. Then a committer verifies it and commits it. Well,
> if there is a committer who finds the code at all worthy ;-)
>
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>
--
"You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back."
~Dakota Jack~
Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Dakota Jack <da...@gmail.com>.
I could not bear the thought of having some of these committers talk about
my code when they have trouble with the English language, much less Java.
On 3/24/06, Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es> wrote:
>
> Michael Jouravlev wrote:
> > On 3/24/06, Steve Raeburn <sr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >>I have an idea. Why don't we publish the source code to Struts so that
> >>absolutely anyone can contribute to the project. You are right that
> >>we'll need a review process for all those contributions. So why don't we
> >>require all incoming code to be reviewed by at least one experienced
> >>developer before it is added to the code base. After a while, developers
> >>will earn a level of trust and we can relax the review requirement to
> >>only happen after the code is updated.
> >>
> >>Thanks for the advice. We should implement this new process right away.
> >>
> >>Steve
> >
> >
> > Does not it work like this already? Someone opens up a Bugzilla ticket
> > and puts up code. Then a committer verifies it and commits it. Well,
> > if there is a committer who finds the code at all worthy ;-)
>
> Or that there is a committer who actually looks at it... :-)
>
> Jonathan Revusky
> --
> lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/
> FreeMarker group blog, http://freemarker.blogspot.com/
>
>
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>
>
--
"You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back."
~Dakota Jack~
Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es>.
Michael Jouravlev wrote:
> On 3/24/06, Steve Raeburn <sr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>I have an idea. Why don't we publish the source code to Struts so that
>>absolutely anyone can contribute to the project. You are right that
>>we'll need a review process for all those contributions. So why don't we
>>require all incoming code to be reviewed by at least one experienced
>>developer before it is added to the code base. After a while, developers
>>will earn a level of trust and we can relax the review requirement to
>>only happen after the code is updated.
>>
>>Thanks for the advice. We should implement this new process right away.
>>
>>Steve
>
>
> Does not it work like this already? Someone opens up a Bugzilla ticket
> and puts up code. Then a committer verifies it and commits it. Well,
> if there is a committer who finds the code at all worthy ;-)
Or that there is a committer who actually looks at it... :-)
Jonathan Revusky
--
lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/
FreeMarker group blog, http://freemarker.blogspot.com/
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Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Michael Jouravlev <jm...@gmail.com>.
On 3/24/06, Steve Raeburn <sr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I have an idea. Why don't we publish the source code to Struts so that
> absolutely anyone can contribute to the project. You are right that
> we'll need a review process for all those contributions. So why don't we
> require all incoming code to be reviewed by at least one experienced
> developer before it is added to the code base. After a while, developers
> will earn a level of trust and we can relax the review requirement to
> only happen after the code is updated.
>
> Thanks for the advice. We should implement this new process right away.
>
> Steve
Does not it work like this already? Someone opens up a Bugzilla ticket
and puts up code. Then a committer verifies it and commits it. Well,
if there is a committer who finds the code at all worthy ;-)
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Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Dave Newton <ne...@pingsite.com>.
Dakota Jack wrote:
> I flat don't believe this. Who, what, where, when, etc?
>
Uh... you're saying you don't believe I've managed and/or worked on
large projects at large companies?
Or you're saying that you don't believe that I've had (occasionally
_substantial_) issues with sub-standard coders having commit rights to
said projects (which I would think is a no-brainer)? (Two good ones pop
immediately to mind: why is the laser printer printing everything as a
mirror image? Hint: it's not a printer setting, and it's somewhere in
that 1.2 million lines of C and C++ code. Why does Beavis occasionally
hover 8-16 pixels above the ground under certain pad inputs combined
with one of two specific moving obstacles? That's somewhere in 16K of
self-modifying Z80 assembly language. Ooo, how about trying to fix a
300-line lisp macro written by somebody else that really didn't know
lisp? Or the completely undocumented 64K of 8051 assembly and C pump
control system that wanted a pressure compensation algorithm but it was
kind of hard to tell which of the multi-processors you needed to add the
code to? Or the cereal boxer written in Forth that would occasionally
(think 8-bit overflow) shoot cereal more or less everywhere?)
NOT EVERYONE SHOULD HAVE COMMIT ACCESS. Non-trivial things can happen
when they do.
Either way, why on EARTH would I give a shit what you think? I've been
doing this for 20 years in essentially every major software field there
is (and about 10 years non-professionally before that) and somehow I've
managed not to alienate nearly every user of this list and still be a
pretty good programmer. Somehow I manage to not threaten people with
lawsuits if they call me a name.
Tell me why I should care what you think, 'cuz I'm having problems with
this one.
And for those of you flooding me with "don't feed the troll" emails, I
know... but now "Dakota Jack" is directly questioning my honesty and my
history, which I do _not_ take kindly to. I am many, many things, not
all good, but a person who does not speak the truth is not among those
things. I spend most of my non-computer time in a dojo where them's
fightin' words.
Dave
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Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Dakota Jack <da...@gmail.com>.
Okay, Dave?!? I guess you are right after all: non-public open-source
projects are really quite normal, right? Keep truckin'!
On 3/25/06, Dave Newton <ne...@pingsite.com> wrote:
>
> Dakota Jack wrote:
> > This is going to be one of my all time favorites. Brought a HUGE grin
> to my
> > face.
> >
>
> Weird, but okay.
>
> If you are addressing the apparent dichotomy with "publicly-accessible"
> and "open-source" then you probably just don't know very much, but I'll
> talk slowly, as there are two different reasons I chose to risk you
> being an asshole:
>
> 1) Open-source roots, multiplicity of commiters, not-yet-released (and,
> I suppose, may never be at this point, but who knows)
> 2) Pre-released, ground-up effort
>
> Multiple projects, unknown future. Labeled as open-source but relatively
> small community and for the forseeable future (3-6 months?) nothing will
> be publicly available.
>
> Dave
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
>
--
"You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back."
~Dakota Jack~
Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Dave Newton <ne...@pingsite.com>.
Dakota Jack wrote:
> This is going to be one of my all time favorites. Brought a HUGE grin to my
> face.
>
Weird, but okay.
If you are addressing the apparent dichotomy with "publicly-accessible"
and "open-source" then you probably just don't know very much, but I'll
talk slowly, as there are two different reasons I chose to risk you
being an asshole:
1) Open-source roots, multiplicity of commiters, not-yet-released (and,
I suppose, may never be at this point, but who knows)
2) Pre-released, ground-up effort
Multiple projects, unknown future. Labeled as open-source but relatively
small community and for the forseeable future (3-6 months?) nothing will
be publicly available.
Dave
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Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Dakota Jack <da...@gmail.com>.
This is going to be one of my all time favorites. Brought a HUGE grin to my
face.
<snip>
On 3/24/06, Dave Newton <ne...@pingsite.com> wrote:
>
> I have no publicly-accessible open-source projects.
</snip>
--
"You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back."
~Dakota Jack~
Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Dakota Jack <da...@gmail.com>.
If people want to talk, Mark, what do you care? You and a few other drones
come on and beg people to stop talking. What is that about? Who in the hell
do you think you are to dictate who wants to talk? You always have these
facists tendencies? The trouble is that the truth hurts. Why don't you
address the issue? The issue is whether Struts crapped out and lost the
competition with WebWorks? You would think that did not happen and that
everything was wonderful. If the reasons Struts crapped out are not
addressed, guess what? It will happen again. If you keep doing the same
thing you did, you will get the same thing you got. What you got in this
case was a completely unacceptable code set that had to be rescrued by a
competitor. Is it okay to talk about or do you still just want people to
shut up?
On 3/25/06, Mark Lowe <me...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> May I +1000 what steve said, I'm all for a bit of digression, but this
> thread has narrowed the sematic gap between "to post" and "to smear"..
> Its just become some sick kind of dirty protest
> http://pso.hmprisonservice.gov.uk/pso1700/DIRTY%20PROTESTS.htm..
>
> Mark
>
> On 3/25/06, Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es> wrote:
> > Dave Newton wrote:
> > > Jonathan Revusky wrote:
> >
> > <snip>
> > >
> > > I have no publicly-accessible open-source projects. If I did, I would
> > > not give commit access to anybody that asked for it, because I do not
> > > have the time to review the contributions of others and do not trust
> J.
> > > Random Coder enough to assume that they'll do the Right Thing, because
> > > in general, most people aren't very good programmers.
> >
> > The whole idea that, when you give somebody commit privileges, that they
> > just go beserk committing all kinds of code of questionable quality --
> > this is just not something that really happens. I recognize that it
> > could happen. Also it could happen that you give commit privileges to
> > someone who is outright malicious. However, the latter would be so
> > infrequent really that, IMO, it's not an issue. If a wandering serial
> > saboteur -- the Ted Bundy of open source coding, if you will -- happens
> > to get involved in your project, well, I would attribute that to
> > inordinate bad luck, maybe like walking down the street and getting
> > struck by lightning. Possible, but so unlikely that it does not
> > condition your decision making.
> >
> > What usually happens is that people sound all enthusiastic about doing
> > stuff and then, when they have the commit access, they simply do
> > nothing. That is what happens easily the vast majority of times. People
> > overestimate the time they can devote to something. They underestimate
> > the investment that it is to really get their heads around the code.
> >
> > When people do start using their commit privileges they are usually
> > quite timid about it initially and initiate discussion on your list
> > prior to doing anything remotely controversial. People typically start
> > off doing very small localized things. And these things are not very
> > time consuming for the more established people on the team to review.
> >
> > One thing that would be possible is to encourage people to get their
> > legs by doing things like working on unit tests and javadoc comments and
> > so on. Most projects, unfortunately, have too little of both of those
> > things and letting people in to initially work on that is quite low
> risk.
> >
> > That would provide a way for poeople to gradually get into the swing of
> > things. I think that any people managing an open source project have to
> > be thinking about how to get new blood into the project.
> >
> > >
> > > Again, YMMV, and hopefully has!
> > >
> > >
> > >>>If you have, that's great, and I'm glad it's working for you, and I
> > >>>hope it continues to.
> > >>
> > >>It's not just working for me. It's working for a lot of people. A lot
> > >>of people use FreeMarker, you know.
> > >
> > >
> > > That's a pretty small sample size, but good :)
> >
> > Be that as it may, apparently it's infinitely greater than your
> > experience running open source projects.
> >
> > Anyway, this is getting sterile. I've made my point. It is my considered
> > view that this idea that the ability to commit code is something that
> > needs to be this zealously guarded is not well founded.
> >
> > Probably a project like Struts would benefit from drastically lowering
> > the bar to becoming a committer.
> >
> > The problem is that they've created this political structure where
> > they've defined committers as people with political power and
> > non-committers as people with no political power and so it has to do
> > with a certain clique retaining their power. It has basically nothing to
> > do with guarding the quality of the code.
> >
> > Actually, it is probable that being politically correct (less likely to
> > disagree with the current clique) is a greater factor in becoming a
> > committer than coding prowess is.
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Jonathan Revusky
> > --
> > lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/
> > FreeMarker group blog, http://freemarker.blogspot.com/
> >
> > >
> > > Dave
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
> >
> >
>
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>
--
"You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back."
~Dakota Jack~
Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Dakota Jack <da...@gmail.com>.
Well, you managed to avoid the whole issue again, Raeburn. Do you ever
address a topic?
On 3/25/06, Steve Raeburn <sr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I normally ignore your crap and I'm sorry for prolonging this agony for
> everyone. This really will be my last word.
>
> Michael, why do you continue to waste your time on such a "big pile of
> crap" as Struts? What kind of a fool must you be for using the world's
> worst web framework, run by a bunch on idiotic dictators? If you really
> believe that, then you are as big a loser as you appear to be. If you
> think you can do better, then fine, go do it. But please, quit whining
> and doing nothing about it. Or do you just enjoy whining?
>
> Please. Get a life.
>
> Steve
>
> p.s. Don't bother addressing any reply to me. You'll just be pissing in
> the wind.
>
> Dakota Jack wrote:
> > The fact is that there will not be an explanation for this
> failure. While
> > sitting in the biggest pile of crap code one could imagine, they
> continue to
> > extoll their virtues as if they were about to be mentioned for an
> honorarium
> > in computer history.
> >
> > <snip>
> > On 3/24/06, Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es> wrote:
> >
> >> Steve Raeburn wrote:
> >>
> >>> Bottom line is that this is the way Apache works and it's not going to
> >>> change.
> >>>
> >> In any case, it is not a subject of legitimate debate at this point
> that
> >> progress on the Struts framework stagnated. If you guys were doing
> >> everything right, then what is your explanation for that?
> >>
> >> Jonathan Revusky
> >>
> >
> > </snip>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > "You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its
> back."
> > ~Dakota Jack~
> >
> >
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
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>
>
--
"You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back."
~Dakota Jack~
Re: Why did Struts development stagnate?
Posted by Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es>.
Dakota Jack wrote:
> Unless you had different logic books in school than I did, Craig,
> "including" does not mean "excluding all else". I am here to communicate
> with other developers that are using STruts for their own applications and
> part of that is the concern about how the development process here has been
> failing. That is critical to people who use Struts. I am sorry if it
> implicates that people, like yourself, who were in charge of the failure.
> But, do you really think that learning something at this stage of your
> career is impossible when things don't work out? I would think that your
> great success would give you more room for criticism than that.
The issue of the question being off-topic to struts-user is a red
herring. Many of Craig's posts have been off-topic by the same
criterion. Moreover, Craig has now said clearly that he won't address
the question on struts-dev either. What is quite amazing is that he
recognizes that the question is legitimate (I suppose he has to, what is
illegitimate about it?) but then says that he won't answer it because
I'm such a bad guy. Blatant recourse to the ad-hominem fallacy.
Initially, I was going to take the next logical step in cornering this
guy: "If you won't answer the question when I ask it, what about if
someone else asks the question, will you answer it then?" And so on...
But I think it's over. He has simply admitted that he won't answer the
question. As for the possibility of somebody else asking the question,
you can see where this leads, given the culture here:
The mere fact that someone poses this taboo question will tar that
person as being unworthy, and thus, will absolve Craig of any need to
answer it. So the question never gets addressed. QED. Of course,
everybody intuits this so the question not only doesn't get answered, it
doesn't get asked in the first place, since people don't want to end up
being pariahs. (I am a special case because I just don't care. :-))
Earlier in this whole discussion, people were trotting out some
darwinian analogy of survival of the fittest in technologies. The
problem with this darwinian analogy that technologies do not generally
compete on a level playing field. Some of them have huge
placement/visibility advantages. Struts, for example, even though the
Struts developers themselves accept that Webwork is better technology,
has more users than Webwork. In general, superior technologies do not
triumph in the marketplace, but rather "more or less good enough"
technologies that have placement advantages win out.
If competition did just happen on a level playing field, and we had a
darwininian situation, a project and community with this culture would
go the way of the dodo bird. (Probably the mechanism would be that it
would generate fairly little technically and lots of BS and ultimately
suffocate in its own excrement.)
I find it disturbing that a dysfunctional community can absorb one that
has produced cutting edge work (Webwork in this case) and actually be
"mentoring" them in adopting the so-called "Apache Way".
Without this Webwork merger, people disgusted by what they see here
could at least go use Webwork, which is something technically superior
with the same basic approach. But Webwork has now been swallowed by
Struts in a very anti-darwinian "survival of the lamest" sort of mechanism.
I find this quite troubling.
Jonathan Revusky
--
lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/
FreeMarker group blog, http://freemarker.blogspot.com/
>
> On 3/25/06, Craig McClanahan <cr...@apache.org> wrote:
>
>>On 3/25/06, Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es> wrote:
>>
>>>The question is, at the very least, broadly on-topic.
>>
>>
>>This interpretation is wildly out of sync with the formal description of
>>this mailing list's purpose[1], quoted below:
>>
>> Subscribe to this list to communicate with other developers
>> that are using Struts for their own applications, including
>> questions about the installation of Struts, and the usage
>> of particular Struts features.
>>
>>
>>Jonathan Revusky
>>
>>
>>Craig
>>
>>[1] http://struts.apache.org/mail.html
>>
>>
>
>
>
> --
> "You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back."
> ~Dakota Jack~
>
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Re: Why did Struts development stagnate?
Posted by Dakota Jack <da...@gmail.com>.
Unless you had different logic books in school than I did, Craig,
"including" does not mean "excluding all else". I am here to communicate
with other developers that are using STruts for their own applications and
part of that is the concern about how the development process here has been
failing. That is critical to people who use Struts. I am sorry if it
implicates that people, like yourself, who were in charge of the failure.
But, do you really think that learning something at this stage of your
career is impossible when things don't work out? I would think that your
great success would give you more room for criticism than that.
On 3/25/06, Craig McClanahan <cr...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> On 3/25/06, Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es> wrote:
> >
> > The question is, at the very least, broadly on-topic.
>
>
> This interpretation is wildly out of sync with the formal description of
> this mailing list's purpose[1], quoted below:
>
> Subscribe to this list to communicate with other developers
> that are using Struts for their own applications, including
> questions about the installation of Struts, and the usage
> of particular Struts features.
>
>
> Jonathan Revusky
>
>
> Craig
>
> [1] http://struts.apache.org/mail.html
>
>
--
"You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back."
~Dakota Jack~
Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Dakota Jack <da...@gmail.com>.
Why does anyone want to stop a thread? If it stops it stops? What is the
motivation for stopping a discussion? This seems really, really strange. If
you don't want to participate, don't. If you don't like what is being said,
have your own say. But to want other people to stop talking? That is a
funny thing to want to do. I personally don't care what other people talk
about on threads that don't interest me. I am interested in discussing
Jonathon's question but the regular supports of the status quo here have
tried to stop the thread by introducing personal attacks and by saying that
they just cannot stand this thead going on.
If anyone ever says they want a thread to stop, I am really interested in
why. Why? What do you care? I hope we are not going down the bandwidth
silliness again.
On 3/25/06, Frank W. Zammetti <fz...@omnytex.com> wrote:
>
> Craig McClanahan wrote:
> > No matter where the conversation developed, it has gone in directions
> that
> > are off topic on this list. Please feel free to continue the
> conversation,
> > but do it somewhere else.
>
> (About to break my own "I'm done posting in this thread" rule)...
>
> Even I, as someone who was knee-deep in this thread for a while, agree
> with Craig. The problem is it was a discussion for a while, but has
> become people just talking over one another now.
>
> I'm all for people expressing their viewpoints, no matter how unpopular,
> but at some point it becomes obvious that no one is listening to one
> another, and then it's an exercise in futility.
>
> No one can stop anyone else from posting, not without locking someone
> out from the list anyway, which I hope never happens to anyone, but at
> some point everyone has to come to the realization that the conversation
> has past the point of being useful in any real way. If no one's opinion
> was changed 30 posts ago, chances are it's not going to happen now.
>
> Besides, if the points being raised are valid at all, this thread won't
> be the last of its kind... Someone will at some point start another and
> it'll all come out again, so why not hold back some of the talking
> points for next time? ;)
>
> > Craig
>
> Frank
>
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>
>
--
"You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back."
~Dakota Jack~
Re: Why did Struts development stagnate?
Posted by Dakota Jack <da...@gmail.com>.
What a breath of fresh air. THANK YOU, Niall. I hoped that if we stuck to
our guns someone would come forward and begin a real discussion. I don't
have time to consider your points in detail now but will later. Again, this
is a positive thing. A beginning.
On 3/29/06, Niall Pemberton <ni...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jonathan Revusky" <re...@wanadoo.es>
> Sent: Saturday, March 25, 2006 11:27 PM
>
> > It still seems broadly on-topic to me. It's certainly a legitimate,
> > well-formulated question.
> >
> > Seriously, the only other possibility I see is struts-dev. If it's
> > off-topic on both struts-user and struts-dev, then the question really
> > is (as I am starting to suppose) basically taboo.
>
>
> The question isn't taboo - I posed the same kind of thing (and offered one
> perspective) in an earlier thread:
>
> http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.jakarta.struts.user/122903
>
> However I don't think what I said in that thread was the whole story -
> clearly frameworks such as WebWork succeeded and I assume they were a
> volunteer effort as well.
>
> We currently have 22 committers on Struts - but levels of activity vary
> widely and I would say that the type of talented people it takes to drive
> a
> project forward (and I don't include myself in that group) no longer have
> an
> interest in doing so on the Action 1 side - for various reasons. People
> such
> as Craig put their effort into developing the JSF standard and see that as
> the future for web development and that is where they now concentrate
> their
> effort. Don was doing alot of work inovating with Struts Ti and had the
> offer to merge not come along from WebWork - we would probably be seeing
> the
> fruits of his efforts as Action2 and not even discussing "stagnation" at
> this point. Ted was AWOL doing C# for a while (hes been "back" for a while
> which is good :-), Martin seems focused on javascript etc. etc. So I guess
> this leads to the next question "Well why didn't we attract new talented
> people into the project that would drive Struts forward?" This I don't
> know - seems that lots of people decided to go invent their own web
> framework (YAWF) rather than get involved with Struts. Some of that is
> certainly their own egos being the "founder of a framework" and some of it
> I
> believe is the compatibility issue - its far easier to write a brand new
> shiny web framework when not hampered by backwards compatibility. Whether
> we
> as a community "put them off" I have no knowledge - but I've never seem
> that
> proferred anywhere as a reason. It was always something like "Struts sucks
> because of x, y and z and my brand new shiny framework does it better".
> Course its far easier to invent a new framework by looking at existing
> ones
> and seeing how you can improve them. Back to the "new people" question
> though - its not my perspective that we have lots of people knocking at
> the
> door trying to give us contributions and we're turning them away. I
> believe
> its easy to become a Struts committer - you offer reasonable code, are
> helpful in the community (e.g. answering questions on the user list), been
> around a while and don't start flame wars or attack people personally -
> then
> you get asked. Theres probably 2/3 people who probably think they should
> have been asked, but haven't - they may or may no have a point - but
> besides
> them I don't see it as a case of Struts excluding people and I don't have
> an
> explanation for why there are not hoards of people wanting to join.
>
> Another answer to the question is "it hasn't stagnated - we've moved on to
> Shale" and that is the future for existing Struts users. Clearly there are
> quite a few people that will disagree with this - but also alot that will
> say "great I buy JSF as the future and I'm glad the Struts project has an
> offering that supports this".
>
> At the end of the day though this does seem academic - since we now have
> two
> offering for whatever camp you fall into (component orientated or action
> orientated) and from my point of view the really good thing about the
> WebWork merger is not only the great software were getting - but also the
> talented new blood thats coming into the project.
>
> So I've given my answer to the question - now can we let this list get
> back
> to helping and answering user questions - which is its main purpose?
>
> Niall
>
>
>
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>
>
--
"You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back."
~Dakota Jack~
Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Dakota Jack <da...@gmail.com>.
What is your problem with this thread, Mark. Why can you just not STAND it
if the people who are talking talk? Why do you want them to be SILENT? You
talk about other people soiling, smearing, etc., and you are one of the
worse offenders. Jonathon comes on here and makes a few legitimate points
and you start going ballistic. What the hell is wrong with you? What dog
do you have in the hunt? Or, are you just supposed to be the person to tell
other people when to stop. You try to do a +1000 but, like the rest of us,
you only have a +1 at best. This is what community here is really about and
I for one am happy to see that not everyone is afraid to talk about what
really happens on the list versus what you and others like you perpetrate.
I would personally like to thank Jonathon for coming by. His presence has
already led to improvements in the website. Do you have anything you would
like to say other than you want other people to stop talking?
On 3/25/06, Mark Lowe <me...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Look.. You've been invited to post your thoughts about the way that
> apache do stuff, to a more appropiate audience than a bunch of
> half-wit struts users like me..
>
> I was using "smear" more in the context of "to soil"
>
> You might have a point, you might not, you could be the next pope for
> all i care.. Let the thread die.. What do you want? Everyone to say..
> Yes "jonathon you're correct", "freemarker is the best because you're
> involved and it employs a more open policy in respect to commit
> privledges" .. What do you want people to say?
>
> Okay,.. You're my hero!! Jonathan is king!!! Anything else? I
> surrender, I'll say whatever you want, your insesent ascii diarrhea
> has beaten us all into submission!!!! Anything else you want me to say
> to stop this thread just say!!! I'll do whatever you want!!! Please
> just tell me what i can do..
>
> Mark
>
> On 3/25/06, Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es> wrote:
> > Mark Lowe wrote:
> > > May I +1000 what steve said, I'm all for a bit of digression, but this
> > > thread has narrowed the sematic gap between "to post" and "to smear"..
> >
> > What smear? Do you mean "smear" as in "slander"? Could you be more
> > explicit about this? I think you ought to clarify what you mean by that
> > statement or retract it.
> >
> > I asked Steve Raeburn the same question I have asked before. The
> > question is as follows:
> >
> > "If your project management practices are so great, how come Struts
> > development stagnated to such an extent?"
> >
> > The stagnation is not a matter of legitimate debate now. They have had
> > to bring in Webwork, a competing project developed outside of ASF, so
> > that they could have something more up-to-date to offer under the
> > "Struts" brand-name.
> >
> > Why should I not ask that question? Because these people find it
> > embarassing? Well, that's tough cookies, eh? Is that what you're talking
> > about when you say a "smear"? I'm satisfied that this is a completely
> > fair question. It's also a tough question, but it's 100% fair and it's
> > 100% on-topic to this discussion.
> >
> > I don't see any reason for these people to refuse to answer it. It's a
> > natural question when people insist that their approach to project
> > management is beyond reproach.
> >
> > Jonathan Revusky
> > --
> > lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
> >
> >
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
>
--
"You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back."
~Dakota Jack~
Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Dakota Jack <da...@gmail.com>.
It has been taken off track by your backers, Craig. There were some
questions raised about why Struts failed and how it might be good to look at
how this list behaves. This is the only forum for that discussion. You get
people that are wonderfully happy with the list that take that concern down
nasty paths. Talk to them. But, the conversation should not be stiffled
because people cannot accept criticism. Your personal lack of any sort of
response, given that you are a principal architect of the failure in
question is disappointing. To now attempt to stiffle any conversation of
the situation you have failed to address may well be one of the main reasons
for the failure people are trying to analyze. Is analysis of failure not a
good idea here?
On 3/25/06, Craig McClanahan <cr...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> On 3/25/06, Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es> wrote:
> >
> > Mark Lowe wrote:
> > > Look.. You've been invited to post your thoughts about the way that
> > > apache do stuff, to a more appropiate audience than a bunch of
> > > half-wit struts users like me..
> >
> > Mark, I was involved in a conversation with various people. It so
> > happens that the conversation developed here.
>
>
> No matter where the conversation developed, it has gone in directions that
> are off topic on this list. Please feel free to continue the
> conversation,
> but do it somewhere else.
>
> Craig
>
>
--
"You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back."
~Dakota Jack~
Re: Why did Struts development stagnate?
Posted by Dakota Jack <da...@gmail.com>.
Given the question, how to avoid a duplication of the past failure of Struts
to keep up with technological innovations, I would say it should be:
"People in grass houses should not stow thrones."
<snip>
On 3/26/06, Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es> wrote:
>
> Craig McClanahan wrote:
>
As regards this throwaway ad-hominem stuff about my rude and obnoxious
> behavior, people in glass houses really should not throw stones.
</snip>
--
"You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back."
~Dakota Jack~
Re: Why did Struts development stagnate?
Posted by Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es>.
Craig McClanahan wrote:
> On 3/25/06, Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es> wrote:
>
>>Craig McClanahan wrote:
>>
>>>On 3/25/06, Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>The question is, at the very least, broadly on-topic.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>This interpretation is wildly out of sync with the formal description of
>>>this mailing list's purpose[1], quoted below:
>>>
>>> Subscribe to this list to communicate with other developers
>>> that are using Struts for their own applications, including
>>> questions about the installation of Struts, and the usage
>>> of particular Struts features.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>So where should such a question be asked, Craig? On rec.automotive? On
>>alt.politics.libertarian?
>>
>>It still seems broadly on-topic to me. It's certainly a legitimate,
>>well-formulated question.
>>
>>Seriously, the only other possibility I see is struts-dev. If it's
>>off-topic on both struts-user and struts-dev, then the question really
>>is (as I am starting to suppose) basically taboo.
>
>
>
> What does the mailing list description for the dev list say?
>
> Subscribe to this mailing list to communicate with other
> developers interested in expanding and improving the
> functionality supported by Struts itself.
Well, you know, one thing about this just occurred ot me. You, Craig,
have, during the time I have been here, made various posts to this list
that are off-topic by the narrow definition above. Let's consider this one:
http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.jakarta.struts.user/123252
How was this post of yours remotely on topic to this list? At least
given the description you post above.
How about this one?
http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.jakarta.struts.user/123253
It is obvious that you yourself do not follow that strictly the supposed
rule above as to what is on-topic here. So this is basically red herring.
Besides, let us consider the following conceptual experiment. Suppose
this thread contained nothing but unctuous praise and flattery for the
Struts team, as in: "I just want to thank Craig and the rest of the team
for doing such a great job". By the definition of the list given above,
such posts would be just as off-topic. Does anybody here think you would
be trying to shut down such a thread?
It really should be quite obvious to anybody that you want to shut down
the thread because people are saying things that you don't like, not
because of any real issue of it being off-topic. And that is simply not
legitimate.
>
> So I guess it depends on your goals :-).
>
> So, cutting to the chase, if I pose the same question on struts-dev, you
>
>>and the others would answer it?
>
>
>
> It wouldn't get rejected as off topic, but your rude and obnoxious behavior
> has made me, speaking for myself, totally uninterested in whether you ever
> receive closure on it. So I'll most likely just ignore you there as well as
> here.
Okay, so you won't answer the question there either. So this is further
proof that the issue of it being off-topic for struts-user was a
dishonest pretext.
Well, that's it then. I guess this conversation is over. You have
completely discredited yourself. Congratulations.
I just have a couple more points.
As regards this throwaway ad-hominem stuff about my rude and obnoxious
behavior, people in glass houses really should not throw stones. My own
sense of things is that people have been incredibly rude and obnoxious
to me. I'm not talking just about yahoos jumping out of the woodwork
screaming at me to shut up. This includes people who you'd think should
be on their best behavior here, since they are Struts PMC members, like
James Mitchell, say. There was no sign, for example, that you
disapproved of James Mitchell insulting me as a result of my offering
honest feedback on your website.
I think that, in this discussion, people willing to have a good-faithed
discussion with me have found that, while I am a hard debater, I debate
fair and square and I maintain a civil tone. In the cases where my tone
becomes rude, I think you'll find it was because other people were rude
first.
I am actually rather inured to the rudeness issues, it's just that you
brought this up. What bothers me far more in this community is the level
of bad faith on display. For example, just here, the bad faith evident
in your claim that you want to stop the thread because it is off-topic,
rather than because the discussion is taking a turn that you don't like.
The more important point I want to make in closing though is that you
don't get it on some basic level. The reason to address the question of
why Struts stagnated has nothing to do with making *me* happy. You have
to address the question for your own benefit and that of your community.
Well, of course, this whole idea that you won't answer this question
because *I* am such a rude person is just a ridiculous attempt to weasel
out. The question has to be addressed and my personality has absolutely
nothing to do with it.
>
> PS: Lest you think I'm an arrogant jerk that deigns to answer only
> questions from "worthy" people, two notes of interest:
>
> * If you count the number of questions that I've answered on
> this list alone (let alone all the other lists I participate in),
> it's in the many thousands.
Maybe so, but can that be taken as proof that you aren't behaving like
an "arrogant jerk" in this instance?
>
> * Adding you to my internal ignore list just doubled its size.
> This is the first time there has ever been more than one.
>
Human behavior is quite compartmentalized. You may well be a nice guy in
other contexts. I can only judge from what I see here. I find your
attitude and behavior deplorable.
Jonathan Revusky
--
lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/
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Re: Why did Struts development stagnate?
Posted by Craig McClanahan <cr...@apache.org>.
On 3/25/06, Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es> wrote:
>
> Craig McClanahan wrote:
> > On 3/25/06, Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es> wrote:
> >
> >>The question is, at the very least, broadly on-topic.
> >
> >
> >
> > This interpretation is wildly out of sync with the formal description of
> > this mailing list's purpose[1], quoted below:
> >
> > Subscribe to this list to communicate with other developers
> > that are using Struts for their own applications, including
> > questions about the installation of Struts, and the usage
> > of particular Struts features.
> >
> >
>
> So where should such a question be asked, Craig? On rec.automotive? On
> alt.politics.libertarian?
>
> It still seems broadly on-topic to me. It's certainly a legitimate,
> well-formulated question.
>
> Seriously, the only other possibility I see is struts-dev. If it's
> off-topic on both struts-user and struts-dev, then the question really
> is (as I am starting to suppose) basically taboo.
What does the mailing list description for the dev list say?
Subscribe to this mailing list to communicate with other
developers interested in expanding and improving the
functionality supported by Struts itself.
So I guess it depends on your goals :-).
So, cutting to the chase, if I pose the same question on struts-dev, you
> and the others would answer it?
It wouldn't get rejected as off topic, but your rude and obnoxious behavior
has made me, speaking for myself, totally uninterested in whether you ever
receive closure on it. So I'll most likely just ignore you there as well as
here.
Jonathan Revusky
Craig
PS: Lest you think I'm an arrogant jerk that deigns to answer only
questions from "worthy" people, two notes of interest:
* If you count the number of questions that I've answered on
this list alone (let alone all the other lists I participate in),
it's in the many thousands.
* Adding you to my internal ignore list just doubled its size.
This is the first time there has ever been more than one.
Re: Why did Struts development stagnate?
Posted by Vinny <xa...@gmail.com>.
Yes, I am "that" old. 38 and still kicking!
On 3/29/06, Michael Jouravlev <jm...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 3/29/06, Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es> wrote:
> > Vinny wrote:
> > > I still say that struts 1.x has not "lost" to webwork.
> > > When I do a quick unscientific search on monster.com for
> > > "struts" I get over 1000 jobs listed. The same search for "webwork"
> > > yields 22 jobs. Apparently struts "won" on the business front
> > > ...
> > > The betamax vs VHS , RISC vs CISC, frameworkC vs frameworkD, Bush vs Kerry
> > > debates are rapidly becoming background noise to me.
> ...
> > Well, look, Vinny, if the Struts developers themselves prefer to base
> > Struts 2 on Webwork, they are saying that Webwork is technically better.
> > If you want to defend Struts 1.x after that, then you're in the position
> > of being more catholic than the pope.
>
> Nice comparison you brought, Vinny. Are you *that* old? ;-) Betamax vs
> VHS is not a background noise, it is a marketing classic. But for a
> person who uses recordable DVDs, it does not really matter who won
> twenty years ago, VHS or Beta.
>
> Michael.
>
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>
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Ghetto Java: http://www.ghettojava.com
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Re: Why did Struts development stagnate?
Posted by Michael Jouravlev <jm...@gmail.com>.
On 3/29/06, Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es> wrote:
> Vinny wrote:
> > I still say that struts 1.x has not "lost" to webwork.
> > When I do a quick unscientific search on monster.com for
> > "struts" I get over 1000 jobs listed. The same search for "webwork"
> > yields 22 jobs. Apparently struts "won" on the business front
> > ...
> > The betamax vs VHS , RISC vs CISC, frameworkC vs frameworkD, Bush vs Kerry
> > debates are rapidly becoming background noise to me.
...
> Well, look, Vinny, if the Struts developers themselves prefer to base
> Struts 2 on Webwork, they are saying that Webwork is technically better.
> If you want to defend Struts 1.x after that, then you're in the position
> of being more catholic than the pope.
Nice comparison you brought, Vinny. Are you *that* old? ;-) Betamax vs
VHS is not a background noise, it is a marketing classic. But for a
person who uses recordable DVDs, it does not really matter who won
twenty years ago, VHS or Beta.
Michael.
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Re: Why did Struts development stagnate?
Posted by Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es>.
Dion Gillard wrote:
> On 3/30/06, Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es> wrote:
>
>>Dion Gillard wrote:
>>
>>>Jonathan,
>>>
>>>do you have a list of things that are technically wrong with Struts 1.x?
>>
>>Dion, there is a Struts/Webwork merger afoot whereby the Webwork
>>codebase is being donated to ASF to be the basis of the next version of
>>Struts, Struts Action Framework 2 or whatever.
>
> Yep, already know that.
I figured that likely. However, I try not to assume too much prior
knowledge in posts. I originally assumed that everybody here on this
list knew basic stuff like that and it later became apparent that a lot
of people don't.
>
> The fact that the Webwork codebase is being used as the basis of the
>
>>next version of the framework by the Struts people rather than Struts
>>itself basically leads to the unavoidable conclusion that the Struts
>>developers themselves consider Webwork to be better technology.
>
> Not necessarily.
Well, Shale is a separate matter AFAICS, since it is a completely
different approach paradigmatically. As regards an action framework with
roughly the same approach, the fact that the Struts people don't want to
use their own code as the basis for that does IMO lead to certain
inescapable conclusions.
> There may be many reasons. And as I understand it, the
> 'next version of the framework by the Struts people' could also be
> considered Apache Struts Shale. Quoting Ted H: "The reason Shale is not
> Struts 2.x is because there was so much concern about doing things better,
> that we ended up with no easy way to pour our old wine into the new bottle.
> Many of us can't afford to recode the many large and mature Struts
> applications now in production. There has to be a clear and simple way to
> get there from here."
The attempt to relabel Webwork as Struts XXX and also Shale as Struts
XXX strikes me as extremely problematic because it would tend to create
great confusion (and maybe even anxiety) among existing Struts users as
to what they are supposed to do now.
However, that is just my opinion. I consider that I am free to express
it, of course, but it is up to Struts people to sort this stuff out.
It also seems to me that the majority of existing Struts users are quite
confused or just uninformed about all this.
>
> It's also quite possible that it is easier to use Don's work with Struts Ti,
> and combine WebWork than it is to make the same sorts of changes to Struts
> 1.x. Why reinvent the wheel?
Well, I don't think Webwork is really being combined with anything. It's
just the same Webwork. It's getting relabelled as Struts something or other.
>
> Also, based on your reasoning, the Webwork developers themselves must
> consider Struts a more widely adopted, better marketed technology, with far
> more developer acceptance and corporate penetration.
The above is not a matter of debate AFAICS. If it weren't for this
mechanism, there would be no reason for the Webwork people to want to
become part of this community. That is fairly obvious.
> As far as the exact technicalities, I can only do what you can do, which
>
>>is look in google for discussions about this. A google search on:
>>
>>struts webwork comparisons
>>
>>yields a lot of hits, but the first result is this one:
>>
>>http://wiki.opensymphony.com/display/WW/Comparison+to+Struts
>>
>>Obviously, not totally objective, since it is by the WW people, but
>>probably factual enough. You get various blog entries and you can ask
>>these people, who surely know a lot more than I do.
>>
>>The truth is out there (somewhere).
>
> Truth being subjective opinion, yes.
>
> "Is WebWork better' technology?" is a subjective question with people on
> both sides of the fence.
It appears that the Struts people are conceding that Webwork is the
better technology -- vis-a-vis Struts 1.x, I don't mean Shale, which is
almost orthogonal. (You see how confusing this gets...)
But to basically relabel the current version of Webwork as Struts Action
2 is basically to concede that Webwork is more advanced technology.
>
> What the merger brings us as users is the ability to pick up some of the
> better features of WebWork without necessarily taking the hit/cost of
> 'switching'.
Well, this is only the case if they provide some compatibility layer or
migration/conversion tools. All of that, for the moment (correct me,
someone, if I'm wrong) is just vaporware. I have also been surprised by
the seeming lack of migration-related threads on the struts-user list.
But, for the moment anyway, switching from using Struts 1.x to Struts
Action 2 is the same work as switching to Webwork would have been.
> There's been much talk about bridging SAF1 and 2, and I expect
> with such a huge install base, this will be a big deal to the Struts
> developers.
Well, it remains to be seen what will happen. I have expressed general
concerns that what this represents is negative in terms of open source
ecology in general, since you have the team that failed to innovate
absorbing, and imposing their culture and project management practices
on the team that did innovate. (Like... does this really make sense???)
In a messages a few messages before in this thread, I think Al Erdani
characterized fairly well how this flamey thread came about.
Jonathan Revusky
--
lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/
FreeMarker group blog, http://freemarker.blogspot.com/
>
> I hope that helps.
>
>>Jonathan Revusky
>>--
>>lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/
>>
>>
>>
>>>On 3/30/06, Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Vinny wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>There have been many time in history when an individual
>>>>>catholic _has_ been more catholic than the Pope.
>>>>>I am simply giving my opinion.
>>>>
>>>>Well, that's true, I guess. You've got a point there, Vinny.
>>>>
>>>>So, yeah, feel free. Be more catholic than the pope. Keep maintaining
>>>>that Struts 1.x is great stuff after the Struts developers themselves
>>>>have abandoned it in favor of Webwork.
>>>>
>>>>Jonathan Revusky
>>>>--
>>>>lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>On 3/29/06, Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>Vinny wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I still say that struts 1.x has not "lost" to webwork.
>>>>>>>When I do a quick unscientific search on monster.com for
>>>>>>>"struts" I get over 1000 jobs listed. The same search for "webwork"
>>>>>>>yields 22 jobs. Apparently struts "won" on the business front,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>That's a different question entirely. The question posed up top here
>>
>>in
>>
>>>>>>the subject line is: "Why did Struts development stagnate?"
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Actually, you could append to that question, given this above data --
>>>>>>"Why did Struts development stagnate -- *despite* having such a huge
>>>>>>user community and so on and so forth.... as documented above...."
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I don't think that is even debatable.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Well, I don't either. That's why that is not the subject of the
>>
>>debate.
>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Now if we want to talk about
>>>>>>>technical prowess then maybe Jonathan might have a point.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>It was about technical prowess. "Struts development" -- the fact that
>>>>>>the Struts developers have abandoned the 1.x codebase decided to base
>>>>>>"Struts Action 2" on the Webwork codebase.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I can't comment
>>>>>>>on it because like a good little scientist I'd like to do some
>>>>>>>experiments first.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Well, look, Vinny, if the Struts developers themselves prefer to base
>>>>>>Struts 2 on Webwork, they are saying that Webwork is technically
>>
>>better.
>>
>>>>>>If you want to defend Struts 1.x after that, then you're in the
>>
>>position
>>
>>>>>>of being more catholic than the pope.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Jonathan Revusky
>>>>>>--
>>>>>>lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>To me this seems like a nice merger that benefits both projects.
>>>>>>>The betamax vs VHS , RISC vs CISC, frameworkC vs frameworkD, Bush vs
>>>>
>>>>Kerry
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>debates are rapidly becoming background noise to me.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>On 3/29/06, Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Niall Pemberton wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>From: "Jonathan Revusky" <re...@wanadoo.es>
>>>>>>>>>Sent: Saturday, March 25, 2006 11:27 PM
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>It still seems broadly on-topic to me. It's certainly a
>>
>>legitimate,
>>
>>>>>>>>>>well-formulated question.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>Seriously, the only other possibility I see is struts-dev. If it's
>>>>>>>>>>off-topic on both struts-user and struts-dev, then the question
>>>>
>>>>really
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>is (as I am starting to suppose) basically taboo.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>The question isn't taboo - I posed the same kind of thing (and
>>>>
>>>>offered one
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>perspective) in an earlier thread:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.jakarta.struts.user/122903
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>However I don't think what I said in that thread was the whole
>>
>>story
>>
>>>>-
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>clearly frameworks such as WebWork succeeded and I assume they were
>>
>>a
>>
>>>>>>>>>volunteer effort as well.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Yes, the bulk of your explanation there seemed to be that Struts was
>>>>
>>>>an
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>>all-volunteer effort and so on.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>This could not possibly be why it fell behind Webwork.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>We currently have 22 committers on Struts -
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Out of curiosity, what is your rough guess as to how many of these
>>
>>22
>>
>>>>>>>>people committed any code in the last... year, let's say.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>but levels of activity vary
>>>>>>>>>widely and I would say that the type of talented people it takes to
>>>>
>>>>drive a
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>project forward (and I don't include myself in that group) no
>>
>>longer
>>
>>>>have an
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>interest in doing so on the Action 1 side - for various reasons.
>>>>
>>>>People such
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>as Craig put their effort into developing the JSF standard and see
>>>>
>>>>that as
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>the future for web development and that is where they now
>>
>>concentrate
>>
>>>>their
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>effort. Don was doing alot of work inovating with Struts Ti
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Well, I was not aware of this. However, you mean that Struts TI was
>>
>>a
>>
>>>>>>>>complete rewrite of the framework? I mean, was there a tacit
>>>>
>>>>assumption
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>>there that Struts 1.x could not be evolved forward and required a
>>>>>>>>complete rewrite?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>and had the
>>>>>>>>>offer to merge not come along from WebWork - we would probably be
>>>>
>>>>seeing the
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>fruits of his efforts as Action2 and not even discussing
>>
>>"stagnation"
>>
>>>>at
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>this point. Ted was AWOL doing C# for a while (hes been "back" for
>>
>>a
>>
>>>>while
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>which is good :-), Martin seems focused on javascript etc. etc. So
>>
>>I
>>
>>>>guess
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>this leads to the next question "Well why didn't we attract new
>>>>
>>>>talented
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>people into the project that would drive Struts forward?" This I
>>>>
>>>>don't
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>know - seems that lots of people decided to go invent their own web
>>>>>>>>>framework (YAWF) rather than get involved with Struts. Some of that
>>>>
>>>>is
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>certainly their own egos being the "founder of a framework" and
>>
>>some
>>
>>>>of it I
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>believe is the compatibility issue - its far easier to write a
>>
>>brand
>>
>>>>new
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>shiny web framework when not hampered by backwards compatibility.
>>>>
>>>>Whether we
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>as a community "put them off" I have no knowledge - but I've never
>>>>
>>>>seem that
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>proferred anywhere as a reason. It was always something like
>>
>>"Struts
>>
>>>>sucks
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>because of x, y and z and my brand new shiny framework does it
>>>>
>>>>better".
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Course its far easier to invent a new framework by looking at
>>>>
>>>>existing ones
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>and seeing how you can improve them. Back to the "new people"
>>>>
>>>>question
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>though - its not my perspective that we have lots of people
>>
>>knocking
>>
>>>>at the
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>door trying to give us contributions and we're turning them away. I
>>>>
>>>>believe
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>its easy to become a Struts committer - you offer reasonable code,
>>>>
>>>>are
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>helpful in the community (e.g. answering questions on the user
>>
>>list),
>>
>>>>been
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>around a while and don't start flame wars or attack people
>>
>>personally
>>
>>>>- then
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>you get asked. Theres probably 2/3 people who probably think they
>>>>
>>>>should
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>have been asked, but haven't - they may or may no have a point -
>>
>>but
>>
>>>>besides
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>them I don't see it as a case of Struts excluding people and I
>>
>>don't
>>
>>>>have an
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>explanation for why there are not hoards of people wanting to join.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Well, first of all, on the question of people going off and doing
>>>>
>>>>their
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>>own framework, you have to basically figure that some of these
>>
>>people
>>
>>>>>>>>just didn't think that they could apply their ideas in this setting.
>>>>
>>>>If
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>>somebody with a fire in their belly and some innovative ideas had
>>>>
>>>>showed
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>>up here and wanted to work on that, would they have been able to do
>>>>
>>>>so?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>>After all, the fact remains that everybody knows that any work they
>>
>>do
>>
>>>>>>>>under the ASF umbrella will get much more attention and usage than
>>
>>it
>>
>>>>>>>>would otherwise. This is the main (probably the only) reason that
>>
>>the
>>
>>>>>>>>Webwork people have come here. So, a priori, your saying that you
>>>>
>>>>aren't
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>>attracting collaborators is really quite odd, isn't it?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>The thing is, Niall, that pretty much all the times you get a new
>>>>>>>>collaborator, that person was first a user. Typically that someone
>>
>>is
>>
>>>>a
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>>"power user", and is pushing the limits of what the tool can do, and
>>>>>>>>starts donating code to make the tool more powerful, and next thing
>>>>
>>>>you
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>>know, the guy is a collaborator.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Now, you've got a lot of users, so that this basic mechanism doesn't
>>>>>>>>operate is rather odd.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>What I have noticed is that the communication with your user
>>
>>community
>>
>>>>>>>>is rather poor. Basically, for all of it, the bulk of your users
>>
>>seem
>>
>>>>>>>>completely clued out as to what is going on with the Webwork merger.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>For example, you get people flaming me because I am saying that
>>>>
>>>>Webwork
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>>is better than Struts. They say "stop bashing Struts". But I am
>>
>>saying
>>
>>>>>>>>exactly what the Struts developers are saying! They have accepted
>>
>>that
>>
>>>>>>>>Webwork is better than Struts! So am I supposed to be more catholic
>>>>
>>>>than
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>>the pope?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Also these people assume that I must be a Webwork developer.
>>
>>Somebody
>>
>>>>>>>>wrote a spoof of me in which I was praising Webwork to the skies! I
>>>>
>>>>have
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>>nothing to do with Webwork. I have never even used it. When I say
>>>>>>>>Webwork is better, I am simply echoing what the Struts PMC are
>>
>>already
>>
>>>>>>>>saying.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>So, I mean, some of this is just going on because people don't know
>>>>>>>>what's going on. I see a real communications failure.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>If people really knew that the current Struts 1.x codebase is being
>>>>>>>>abandoned, you would think that there would be a lot more threads on
>>>>>>>>this list about migration issues. "I've got this Struts 1.x App and
>>
>>I
>>
>>>>>>>>just was having a look at Webwork, which is going to be Struts
>>
>>Action
>>
>>>>2
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>>and have various questions about how my app can be migrated...." I
>>>>
>>>>don't
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>>see threads like that, which means to me that you have not
>>>>
>>>>communicated
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>>to your rank and file users what is really going on here.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Now, if there really is a problem in terms of user<->developer
>>>>>>>>communication here, it would explain why the process whereby certain
>>>>>>>>power users become collaborators is not happening as often as it
>>>>
>>>>should.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>>And this would be a factor in the stagnation.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Certainly, given the size of the user community, even if 1 in 100
>>>>
>>>>people
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>>eventually became committers via that process, you would have a lot
>>
>>of
>>
>>>>>>>>active committers.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>That a community like webwork with far fewer users nonetheless has a
>>>>>>>>more active, real developer team, is really something to look at.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Certainly, in earlier discussions, most people just seemed to think
>>>>
>>>>that
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>>it was really hard to become a commmitters. So if that is a
>>>>>>>>misconception, it is a widely held one. There's something odd going
>>
>>on
>>
>>>>here.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Another answer to the question is "it hasn't stagnated -
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Stop, Niall, stop. That's not an answer. :-) Let's not go around
>>>>>>>>completely in circles.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>we've moved on to
>>>>>>>>>Shale" and that is the future for existing Struts users.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Well, if that is the case, you haven't communicated it to your
>>
>>users.
>>
>>>>>>>>I grant that if you are going to communicate something to your
>>
>>users,
>>
>>>>>>>>you should probably have a consistent message. The Action/Shale
>>>>>>>>cohabitation seems to almost preclude having a consistent message.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Anyway, JSF/Shale is just something completely different
>>>>>>>>paradigmatically and the idea of that as "Struts 2" is really quite
>>>>
>>>>odd.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Clearly there are
>>>>>>>>>quite a few people that will disagree with this - but also alot
>>
>>that
>>
>>>>will
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>say "great I buy JSF as the future and I'm glad the Struts project
>>>>
>>>>has an
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>offering that supports this".
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Well, unless you are offering migration tools or a compatibility
>>
>>layer
>>
>>>>>>>>or something, how does it benefit your users that Shale is under the
>>>>>>>>"Struts umbrella" any more than if it was a separate project? I
>>
>>mean,
>>
>>>>>>>>it's a paradigmatic shift that you have to get head around either
>>
>>way
>>
>>>>>>>>and existing apps would need to be refactored.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>At the end of the day though this does seem academic, - since we
>>
>>now
>>
>>>>have two
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>offering for whatever camp you fall into (component orientated or
>>>>
>>>>action
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>orientated) and from my point of view the really good thing about
>>
>>the
>>
>>>>>>>>>WebWork merger is not only the great software were getting - but
>>
>>also
>>
>>>>the
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>talented new blood thats coming into the project.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Well, if you accept that the Webwork people just ran the better
>>>>
>>>>project,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>>you guys failed to keep Struts 1.x going at least in terms of
>>>>
>>>>innovation
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>>and development, then by that logic, the current Struts PMC should
>>>>
>>>>just
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>>step down probably and let the Webwork people run the show.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>If the same PMC that presided over technical stagnation before is
>>>>
>>>>going
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>>to remain the managers of the project, then I think it isn't an
>>>>
>>>>academic
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>>question. You have to examine the mistakes you made before.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>So I've given my answer to the question - now can we let this list
>>>>
>>>>get back
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>to helping and answering user questions - which is its main
>>
>>purpose?
>>
>>>>>>>>Niall, I don't know what you're talking about here. I see no sign
>>
>>that
>>
>>>>>>>>the list stopped helping people and answering their questions due to
>>>>
>>>>the
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>>presence of this thread.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>You were giving some signs that you now were willing to talk about
>>>>
>>>>this.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>>You've had a certain say about this now. You've stepped forward and
>>>>
>>>>said
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>>the topic is not taboo. Well, now you're saying, let's not talk
>>
>>about
>>
>>>>it
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>>any more, i.e. I broke the taboo temporarily to get this guy off my
>>>>>>>>back, but nudge nudge, wink, wink, the topic really is taboo.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Okay, maybe that wasn't your intent, but if not, and the topic isn't
>>>>>>>>taboo, how do you know other people don't have opinions to express
>>>>
>>>>now?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>>Again, the idea that this is an either-or proposition and the list
>>
>>has
>>
>>>>>>>>to choose between talking about this and helping people by answering
>>>>>>>>technical questions is actually absurd, isn't it?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Jonathan Revusky
>>>>>>>>--
>>>>>>>>lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Niall
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
>>>>>>>>For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>--
>>>>>>>Ghetto Java: http://www.ghettojava.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
>>>>>>For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>--
>>>>>Ghetto Java: http://www.ghettojava.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
>>>>For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>--
>>>http://www.multitask.com.au/people/dion/
>>>Chuck Norris sleeps with a night light. Not because Chuck Norris is
>>
>>afraid
>>
>>>of the dark, but because the dark is afraid of Chuck Norris
>>>
>>
>>
>>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
>>For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
>>
>>
>
>
>
> --
> http://www.multitask.com.au/people/dion/
> Chuck Norris sleeps with a night light. Not because Chuck Norris is afraid
> of the dark, but because the dark is afraid of Chuck Norris
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
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For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
Re: Why did Struts development stagnate?
Posted by Dion Gillard <di...@gmail.com>.
On 3/30/06, Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es> wrote:
>
> Dion Gillard wrote:
> > Jonathan,
> >
> > do you have a list of things that are technically wrong with Struts 1.x?
>
> Dion, there is a Struts/Webwork merger afoot whereby the Webwork
> codebase is being donated to ASF to be the basis of the next version of
> Struts, Struts Action Framework 2 or whatever.
Yep, already know that.
The fact that the Webwork codebase is being used as the basis of the
> next version of the framework by the Struts people rather than Struts
> itself basically leads to the unavoidable conclusion that the Struts
> developers themselves consider Webwork to be better technology.
Not necessarily. There may be many reasons. And as I understand it, the
'next version of the framework by the Struts people' could also be
considered Apache Struts Shale. Quoting Ted H: "The reason Shale is not
Struts 2.x is because there was so much concern about doing things better,
that we ended up with no easy way to pour our old wine into the new bottle.
Many of us can't afford to recode the many large and mature Struts
applications now in production. There has to be a clear and simple way to
get there from here."
It's also quite possible that it is easier to use Don's work with Struts Ti,
and combine WebWork than it is to make the same sorts of changes to Struts
1.x. Why reinvent the wheel?
Also, based on your reasoning, the Webwork developers themselves must
consider Struts a more widely adopted, better marketed technology, with far
more developer acceptance and corporate penetration.
As far as the exact technicalities, I can only do what you can do, which
> is look in google for discussions about this. A google search on:
>
> struts webwork comparisons
>
> yields a lot of hits, but the first result is this one:
>
> http://wiki.opensymphony.com/display/WW/Comparison+to+Struts
>
> Obviously, not totally objective, since it is by the WW people, but
> probably factual enough. You get various blog entries and you can ask
> these people, who surely know a lot more than I do.
>
> The truth is out there (somewhere).
Truth being subjective opinion, yes.
"Is WebWork better' technology?" is a subjective question with people on
both sides of the fence.
What the merger brings us as users is the ability to pick up some of the
better features of WebWork without necessarily taking the hit/cost of
'switching'. There's been much talk about bridging SAF1 and 2, and I expect
with such a huge install base, this will be a big deal to the Struts
developers.
I hope that helps.
>
> Jonathan Revusky
> --
> lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/
>
>
> >
> > On 3/30/06, Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es> wrote:
> >
> >>Vinny wrote:
> >>
> >>>There have been many time in history when an individual
> >>>catholic _has_ been more catholic than the Pope.
> >>>I am simply giving my opinion.
> >>
> >>Well, that's true, I guess. You've got a point there, Vinny.
> >>
> >>So, yeah, feel free. Be more catholic than the pope. Keep maintaining
> >>that Struts 1.x is great stuff after the Struts developers themselves
> >>have abandoned it in favor of Webwork.
> >>
> >>Jonathan Revusky
> >>--
> >>lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>On 3/29/06, Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>Vinny wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>I still say that struts 1.x has not "lost" to webwork.
> >>>>>When I do a quick unscientific search on monster.com for
> >>>>>"struts" I get over 1000 jobs listed. The same search for "webwork"
> >>>>>yields 22 jobs. Apparently struts "won" on the business front,
> >>>>
> >>>>That's a different question entirely. The question posed up top here
> in
> >>>>the subject line is: "Why did Struts development stagnate?"
> >>>>
> >>>>Actually, you could append to that question, given this above data --
> >>>>"Why did Struts development stagnate -- *despite* having such a huge
> >>>>user community and so on and so forth.... as documented above...."
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>I don't think that is even debatable.
> >>>>
> >>>>Well, I don't either. That's why that is not the subject of the
> debate.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>Now if we want to talk about
> >>>>>technical prowess then maybe Jonathan might have a point.
> >>>>
> >>>>It was about technical prowess. "Struts development" -- the fact that
> >>>>the Struts developers have abandoned the 1.x codebase decided to base
> >>>>"Struts Action 2" on the Webwork codebase.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>I can't comment
> >>>>>on it because like a good little scientist I'd like to do some
> >>>>>experiments first.
> >>>>
> >>>>Well, look, Vinny, if the Struts developers themselves prefer to base
> >>>>Struts 2 on Webwork, they are saying that Webwork is technically
> better.
> >>>>If you want to defend Struts 1.x after that, then you're in the
> position
> >>>>of being more catholic than the pope.
> >>>>
> >>>>Jonathan Revusky
> >>>>--
> >>>>lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>To me this seems like a nice merger that benefits both projects.
> >>>>>The betamax vs VHS , RISC vs CISC, frameworkC vs frameworkD, Bush vs
> >>
> >>Kerry
> >>
> >>>>>debates are rapidly becoming background noise to me.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>On 3/29/06, Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>Niall Pemberton wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>----- Original Message -----
> >>>>>>>From: "Jonathan Revusky" <re...@wanadoo.es>
> >>>>>>>Sent: Saturday, March 25, 2006 11:27 PM
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>It still seems broadly on-topic to me. It's certainly a
> legitimate,
> >>>>>>>>well-formulated question.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>Seriously, the only other possibility I see is struts-dev. If it's
> >>>>>>>>off-topic on both struts-user and struts-dev, then the question
> >>
> >>really
> >>
> >>>>>>>>is (as I am starting to suppose) basically taboo.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>The question isn't taboo - I posed the same kind of thing (and
> >>
> >>offered one
> >>
> >>>>>>>perspective) in an earlier thread:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.jakarta.struts.user/122903
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>However I don't think what I said in that thread was the whole
> story
> >>
> >>-
> >>
> >>>>>>>clearly frameworks such as WebWork succeeded and I assume they were
> a
> >>>>>>>volunteer effort as well.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>Yes, the bulk of your explanation there seemed to be that Struts was
> >>
> >>an
> >>
> >>>>>>all-volunteer effort and so on.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>This could not possibly be why it fell behind Webwork.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>We currently have 22 committers on Struts -
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>Out of curiosity, what is your rough guess as to how many of these
> 22
> >>>>>>people committed any code in the last... year, let's say.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>but levels of activity vary
> >>>>>>>widely and I would say that the type of talented people it takes to
> >>
> >>drive a
> >>
> >>>>>>>project forward (and I don't include myself in that group) no
> longer
> >>
> >>have an
> >>
> >>>>>>>interest in doing so on the Action 1 side - for various reasons.
> >>
> >>People such
> >>
> >>>>>>>as Craig put their effort into developing the JSF standard and see
> >>
> >>that as
> >>
> >>>>>>>the future for web development and that is where they now
> concentrate
> >>
> >>their
> >>
> >>>>>>>effort. Don was doing alot of work inovating with Struts Ti
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>Well, I was not aware of this. However, you mean that Struts TI was
> a
> >>>>>>complete rewrite of the framework? I mean, was there a tacit
> >>
> >>assumption
> >>
> >>>>>>there that Struts 1.x could not be evolved forward and required a
> >>>>>>complete rewrite?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>and had the
> >>>>>>>offer to merge not come along from WebWork - we would probably be
> >>
> >>seeing the
> >>
> >>>>>>>fruits of his efforts as Action2 and not even discussing
> "stagnation"
> >>
> >>at
> >>
> >>>>>>>this point. Ted was AWOL doing C# for a while (hes been "back" for
> a
> >>
> >>while
> >>
> >>>>>>>which is good :-), Martin seems focused on javascript etc. etc. So
> I
> >>
> >>guess
> >>
> >>>>>>>this leads to the next question "Well why didn't we attract new
> >>
> >>talented
> >>
> >>>>>>>people into the project that would drive Struts forward?" This I
> >>
> >>don't
> >>
> >>>>>>>know - seems that lots of people decided to go invent their own web
> >>>>>>>framework (YAWF) rather than get involved with Struts. Some of that
> >>
> >>is
> >>
> >>>>>>>certainly their own egos being the "founder of a framework" and
> some
> >>
> >>of it I
> >>
> >>>>>>>believe is the compatibility issue - its far easier to write a
> brand
> >>
> >>new
> >>
> >>>>>>>shiny web framework when not hampered by backwards compatibility.
> >>
> >>Whether we
> >>
> >>>>>>>as a community "put them off" I have no knowledge - but I've never
> >>
> >>seem that
> >>
> >>>>>>>proferred anywhere as a reason. It was always something like
> "Struts
> >>
> >>sucks
> >>
> >>>>>>>because of x, y and z and my brand new shiny framework does it
> >>
> >>better".
> >>
> >>>>>>>Course its far easier to invent a new framework by looking at
> >>
> >>existing ones
> >>
> >>>>>>>and seeing how you can improve them. Back to the "new people"
> >>
> >>question
> >>
> >>>>>>>though - its not my perspective that we have lots of people
> knocking
> >>
> >>at the
> >>
> >>>>>>>door trying to give us contributions and we're turning them away. I
> >>
> >>believe
> >>
> >>>>>>>its easy to become a Struts committer - you offer reasonable code,
> >>
> >>are
> >>
> >>>>>>>helpful in the community (e.g. answering questions on the user
> list),
> >>
> >>been
> >>
> >>>>>>>around a while and don't start flame wars or attack people
> personally
> >>
> >>- then
> >>
> >>>>>>>you get asked. Theres probably 2/3 people who probably think they
> >>
> >>should
> >>
> >>>>>>>have been asked, but haven't - they may or may no have a point -
> but
> >>
> >>besides
> >>
> >>>>>>>them I don't see it as a case of Struts excluding people and I
> don't
> >>
> >>have an
> >>
> >>>>>>>explanation for why there are not hoards of people wanting to join.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>Well, first of all, on the question of people going off and doing
> >>
> >>their
> >>
> >>>>>>own framework, you have to basically figure that some of these
> people
> >>>>>>just didn't think that they could apply their ideas in this setting.
> >>
> >>If
> >>
> >>>>>>somebody with a fire in their belly and some innovative ideas had
> >>
> >>showed
> >>
> >>>>>>up here and wanted to work on that, would they have been able to do
> >>
> >>so?
> >>
> >>>>>>After all, the fact remains that everybody knows that any work they
> do
> >>>>>>under the ASF umbrella will get much more attention and usage than
> it
> >>>>>>would otherwise. This is the main (probably the only) reason that
> the
> >>>>>>Webwork people have come here. So, a priori, your saying that you
> >>
> >>aren't
> >>
> >>>>>>attracting collaborators is really quite odd, isn't it?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>The thing is, Niall, that pretty much all the times you get a new
> >>>>>>collaborator, that person was first a user. Typically that someone
> is
> >>
> >>a
> >>
> >>>>>>"power user", and is pushing the limits of what the tool can do, and
> >>>>>>starts donating code to make the tool more powerful, and next thing
> >>
> >>you
> >>
> >>>>>>know, the guy is a collaborator.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>Now, you've got a lot of users, so that this basic mechanism doesn't
> >>>>>>operate is rather odd.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>What I have noticed is that the communication with your user
> community
> >>>>>>is rather poor. Basically, for all of it, the bulk of your users
> seem
> >>>>>>completely clued out as to what is going on with the Webwork merger.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>For example, you get people flaming me because I am saying that
> >>
> >>Webwork
> >>
> >>>>>>is better than Struts. They say "stop bashing Struts". But I am
> saying
> >>>>>>exactly what the Struts developers are saying! They have accepted
> that
> >>>>>>Webwork is better than Struts! So am I supposed to be more catholic
> >>
> >>than
> >>
> >>>>>>the pope?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>Also these people assume that I must be a Webwork developer.
> Somebody
> >>>>>>wrote a spoof of me in which I was praising Webwork to the skies! I
> >>
> >>have
> >>
> >>>>>>nothing to do with Webwork. I have never even used it. When I say
> >>>>>>Webwork is better, I am simply echoing what the Struts PMC are
> already
> >>>>>>saying.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>So, I mean, some of this is just going on because people don't know
> >>>>>>what's going on. I see a real communications failure.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>If people really knew that the current Struts 1.x codebase is being
> >>>>>>abandoned, you would think that there would be a lot more threads on
> >>>>>>this list about migration issues. "I've got this Struts 1.x App and
> I
> >>>>>>just was having a look at Webwork, which is going to be Struts
> Action
> >>
> >>2
> >>
> >>>>>>and have various questions about how my app can be migrated...." I
> >>
> >>don't
> >>
> >>>>>>see threads like that, which means to me that you have not
> >>
> >>communicated
> >>
> >>>>>>to your rank and file users what is really going on here.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>Now, if there really is a problem in terms of user<->developer
> >>>>>>communication here, it would explain why the process whereby certain
> >>>>>>power users become collaborators is not happening as often as it
> >>
> >>should.
> >>
> >>>>>>And this would be a factor in the stagnation.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>Certainly, given the size of the user community, even if 1 in 100
> >>
> >>people
> >>
> >>>>>>eventually became committers via that process, you would have a lot
> of
> >>>>>>active committers.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>That a community like webwork with far fewer users nonetheless has a
> >>>>>>more active, real developer team, is really something to look at.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>Certainly, in earlier discussions, most people just seemed to think
> >>
> >>that
> >>
> >>>>>>it was really hard to become a commmitters. So if that is a
> >>>>>>misconception, it is a widely held one. There's something odd going
> on
> >>
> >>here.
> >>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>Another answer to the question is "it hasn't stagnated -
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>Stop, Niall, stop. That's not an answer. :-) Let's not go around
> >>>>>>completely in circles.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>we've moved on to
> >>>>>>>Shale" and that is the future for existing Struts users.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>Well, if that is the case, you haven't communicated it to your
> users.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>I grant that if you are going to communicate something to your
> users,
> >>>>>>you should probably have a consistent message. The Action/Shale
> >>>>>>cohabitation seems to almost preclude having a consistent message.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>Anyway, JSF/Shale is just something completely different
> >>>>>>paradigmatically and the idea of that as "Struts 2" is really quite
> >>
> >>odd.
> >>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>Clearly there are
> >>>>>>>quite a few people that will disagree with this - but also alot
> that
> >>
> >>will
> >>
> >>>>>>>say "great I buy JSF as the future and I'm glad the Struts project
> >>
> >>has an
> >>
> >>>>>>>offering that supports this".
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>Well, unless you are offering migration tools or a compatibility
> layer
> >>>>>>or something, how does it benefit your users that Shale is under the
> >>>>>>"Struts umbrella" any more than if it was a separate project? I
> mean,
> >>>>>>it's a paradigmatic shift that you have to get head around either
> way
> >>>>>>and existing apps would need to be refactored.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>At the end of the day though this does seem academic, - since we
> now
> >>
> >>have two
> >>
> >>>>>>>offering for whatever camp you fall into (component orientated or
> >>
> >>action
> >>
> >>>>>>>orientated) and from my point of view the really good thing about
> the
> >>>>>>>WebWork merger is not only the great software were getting - but
> also
> >>
> >>the
> >>
> >>>>>>>talented new blood thats coming into the project.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>Well, if you accept that the Webwork people just ran the better
> >>
> >>project,
> >>
> >>>>>>you guys failed to keep Struts 1.x going at least in terms of
> >>
> >>innovation
> >>
> >>>>>>and development, then by that logic, the current Struts PMC should
> >>
> >>just
> >>
> >>>>>>step down probably and let the Webwork people run the show.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>If the same PMC that presided over technical stagnation before is
> >>
> >>going
> >>
> >>>>>>to remain the managers of the project, then I think it isn't an
> >>
> >>academic
> >>
> >>>>>>question. You have to examine the mistakes you made before.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>So I've given my answer to the question - now can we let this list
> >>
> >>get back
> >>
> >>>>>>>to helping and answering user questions - which is its main
> purpose?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>Niall, I don't know what you're talking about here. I see no sign
> that
> >>>>>>the list stopped helping people and answering their questions due to
> >>
> >>the
> >>
> >>>>>>presence of this thread.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>You were giving some signs that you now were willing to talk about
> >>
> >>this.
> >>
> >>>>>>You've had a certain say about this now. You've stepped forward and
> >>
> >>said
> >>
> >>>>>>the topic is not taboo. Well, now you're saying, let's not talk
> about
> >>
> >>it
> >>
> >>>>>>any more, i.e. I broke the taboo temporarily to get this guy off my
> >>>>>>back, but nudge nudge, wink, wink, the topic really is taboo.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>Okay, maybe that wasn't your intent, but if not, and the topic isn't
> >>>>>>taboo, how do you know other people don't have opinions to express
> >>
> >>now?
> >>
> >>>>>>Again, the idea that this is an either-or proposition and the list
> has
> >>>>>>to choose between talking about this and helping people by answering
> >>>>>>technical questions is actually absurd, isn't it?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>Jonathan Revusky
> >>>>>>--
> >>>>>>lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>Niall
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
>
> >>>>>>---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>>>>To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> >>>>>>For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>--
> >>>>>Ghetto Java: http://www.ghettojava.com
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>>To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> >>>>For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>--
> >>>Ghetto Java: http://www.ghettojava.com
> >>
> >>
> >>---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> >>For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > http://www.multitask.com.au/people/dion/
> > Chuck Norris sleeps with a night light. Not because Chuck Norris is
> afraid
> > of the dark, but because the dark is afraid of Chuck Norris
> >
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
>
>
--
http://www.multitask.com.au/people/dion/
Chuck Norris sleeps with a night light. Not because Chuck Norris is afraid
of the dark, but because the dark is afraid of Chuck Norris
Re: Why did Struts development stagnate?
Posted by Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es>.
Dion Gillard wrote:
> Jonathan,
>
> do you have a list of things that are technically wrong with Struts 1.x?
Dion, there is a Struts/Webwork merger afoot whereby the Webwork
codebase is being donated to ASF to be the basis of the next version of
Struts, Struts Action Framework 2 or whatever.
The fact that the Webwork codebase is being used as the basis of the
next version of the framework by the Struts people rather than Struts
itself basically leads to the unavoidable conclusion that the Struts
developers themselves consider Webwork to be better technology.
As far as the exact technicalities, I can only do what you can do, which
is look in google for discussions about this. A google search on:
struts webwork comparisons
yields a lot of hits, but the first result is this one:
http://wiki.opensymphony.com/display/WW/Comparison+to+Struts
Obviously, not totally objective, since it is by the WW people, but
probably factual enough. You get various blog entries and you can ask
these people, who surely know a lot more than I do.
The truth is out there (somewhere).
I hope that helps.
Jonathan Revusky
--
lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/
>
> On 3/30/06, Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es> wrote:
>
>>Vinny wrote:
>>
>>>There have been many time in history when an individual
>>>catholic _has_ been more catholic than the Pope.
>>>I am simply giving my opinion.
>>
>>Well, that's true, I guess. You've got a point there, Vinny.
>>
>>So, yeah, feel free. Be more catholic than the pope. Keep maintaining
>>that Struts 1.x is great stuff after the Struts developers themselves
>>have abandoned it in favor of Webwork.
>>
>>Jonathan Revusky
>>--
>>lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>On 3/29/06, Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Vinny wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>I still say that struts 1.x has not "lost" to webwork.
>>>>>When I do a quick unscientific search on monster.com for
>>>>>"struts" I get over 1000 jobs listed. The same search for "webwork"
>>>>>yields 22 jobs. Apparently struts "won" on the business front,
>>>>
>>>>That's a different question entirely. The question posed up top here in
>>>>the subject line is: "Why did Struts development stagnate?"
>>>>
>>>>Actually, you could append to that question, given this above data --
>>>>"Why did Struts development stagnate -- *despite* having such a huge
>>>>user community and so on and so forth.... as documented above...."
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>I don't think that is even debatable.
>>>>
>>>>Well, I don't either. That's why that is not the subject of the debate.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Now if we want to talk about
>>>>>technical prowess then maybe Jonathan might have a point.
>>>>
>>>>It was about technical prowess. "Struts development" -- the fact that
>>>>the Struts developers have abandoned the 1.x codebase decided to base
>>>>"Struts Action 2" on the Webwork codebase.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>I can't comment
>>>>>on it because like a good little scientist I'd like to do some
>>>>>experiments first.
>>>>
>>>>Well, look, Vinny, if the Struts developers themselves prefer to base
>>>>Struts 2 on Webwork, they are saying that Webwork is technically better.
>>>>If you want to defend Struts 1.x after that, then you're in the position
>>>>of being more catholic than the pope.
>>>>
>>>>Jonathan Revusky
>>>>--
>>>>lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>To me this seems like a nice merger that benefits both projects.
>>>>>The betamax vs VHS , RISC vs CISC, frameworkC vs frameworkD, Bush vs
>>
>>Kerry
>>
>>>>>debates are rapidly becoming background noise to me.
>>>>>
>>>>>On 3/29/06, Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>Niall Pemberton wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>From: "Jonathan Revusky" <re...@wanadoo.es>
>>>>>>>Sent: Saturday, March 25, 2006 11:27 PM
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>It still seems broadly on-topic to me. It's certainly a legitimate,
>>>>>>>>well-formulated question.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Seriously, the only other possibility I see is struts-dev. If it's
>>>>>>>>off-topic on both struts-user and struts-dev, then the question
>>
>>really
>>
>>>>>>>>is (as I am starting to suppose) basically taboo.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>The question isn't taboo - I posed the same kind of thing (and
>>
>>offered one
>>
>>>>>>>perspective) in an earlier thread:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.jakarta.struts.user/122903
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>However I don't think what I said in that thread was the whole story
>>
>>-
>>
>>>>>>>clearly frameworks such as WebWork succeeded and I assume they were a
>>>>>>>volunteer effort as well.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Yes, the bulk of your explanation there seemed to be that Struts was
>>
>>an
>>
>>>>>>all-volunteer effort and so on.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>This could not possibly be why it fell behind Webwork.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>We currently have 22 committers on Struts -
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Out of curiosity, what is your rough guess as to how many of these 22
>>>>>>people committed any code in the last... year, let's say.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>but levels of activity vary
>>>>>>>widely and I would say that the type of talented people it takes to
>>
>>drive a
>>
>>>>>>>project forward (and I don't include myself in that group) no longer
>>
>>have an
>>
>>>>>>>interest in doing so on the Action 1 side - for various reasons.
>>
>>People such
>>
>>>>>>>as Craig put their effort into developing the JSF standard and see
>>
>>that as
>>
>>>>>>>the future for web development and that is where they now concentrate
>>
>>their
>>
>>>>>>>effort. Don was doing alot of work inovating with Struts Ti
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Well, I was not aware of this. However, you mean that Struts TI was a
>>>>>>complete rewrite of the framework? I mean, was there a tacit
>>
>>assumption
>>
>>>>>>there that Struts 1.x could not be evolved forward and required a
>>>>>>complete rewrite?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>and had the
>>>>>>>offer to merge not come along from WebWork - we would probably be
>>
>>seeing the
>>
>>>>>>>fruits of his efforts as Action2 and not even discussing "stagnation"
>>
>>at
>>
>>>>>>>this point. Ted was AWOL doing C# for a while (hes been "back" for a
>>
>>while
>>
>>>>>>>which is good :-), Martin seems focused on javascript etc. etc. So I
>>
>>guess
>>
>>>>>>>this leads to the next question "Well why didn't we attract new
>>
>>talented
>>
>>>>>>>people into the project that would drive Struts forward?" This I
>>
>>don't
>>
>>>>>>>know - seems that lots of people decided to go invent their own web
>>>>>>>framework (YAWF) rather than get involved with Struts. Some of that
>>
>>is
>>
>>>>>>>certainly their own egos being the "founder of a framework" and some
>>
>>of it I
>>
>>>>>>>believe is the compatibility issue - its far easier to write a brand
>>
>>new
>>
>>>>>>>shiny web framework when not hampered by backwards compatibility.
>>
>>Whether we
>>
>>>>>>>as a community "put them off" I have no knowledge - but I've never
>>
>>seem that
>>
>>>>>>>proferred anywhere as a reason. It was always something like "Struts
>>
>>sucks
>>
>>>>>>>because of x, y and z and my brand new shiny framework does it
>>
>>better".
>>
>>>>>>>Course its far easier to invent a new framework by looking at
>>
>>existing ones
>>
>>>>>>>and seeing how you can improve them. Back to the "new people"
>>
>>question
>>
>>>>>>>though - its not my perspective that we have lots of people knocking
>>
>>at the
>>
>>>>>>>door trying to give us contributions and we're turning them away. I
>>
>>believe
>>
>>>>>>>its easy to become a Struts committer - you offer reasonable code,
>>
>>are
>>
>>>>>>>helpful in the community (e.g. answering questions on the user list),
>>
>>been
>>
>>>>>>>around a while and don't start flame wars or attack people personally
>>
>>- then
>>
>>>>>>>you get asked. Theres probably 2/3 people who probably think they
>>
>>should
>>
>>>>>>>have been asked, but haven't - they may or may no have a point - but
>>
>>besides
>>
>>>>>>>them I don't see it as a case of Struts excluding people and I don't
>>
>>have an
>>
>>>>>>>explanation for why there are not hoards of people wanting to join.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Well, first of all, on the question of people going off and doing
>>
>>their
>>
>>>>>>own framework, you have to basically figure that some of these people
>>>>>>just didn't think that they could apply their ideas in this setting.
>>
>>If
>>
>>>>>>somebody with a fire in their belly and some innovative ideas had
>>
>>showed
>>
>>>>>>up here and wanted to work on that, would they have been able to do
>>
>>so?
>>
>>>>>>After all, the fact remains that everybody knows that any work they do
>>>>>>under the ASF umbrella will get much more attention and usage than it
>>>>>>would otherwise. This is the main (probably the only) reason that the
>>>>>>Webwork people have come here. So, a priori, your saying that you
>>
>>aren't
>>
>>>>>>attracting collaborators is really quite odd, isn't it?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>The thing is, Niall, that pretty much all the times you get a new
>>>>>>collaborator, that person was first a user. Typically that someone is
>>
>>a
>>
>>>>>>"power user", and is pushing the limits of what the tool can do, and
>>>>>>starts donating code to make the tool more powerful, and next thing
>>
>>you
>>
>>>>>>know, the guy is a collaborator.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Now, you've got a lot of users, so that this basic mechanism doesn't
>>>>>>operate is rather odd.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>What I have noticed is that the communication with your user community
>>>>>>is rather poor. Basically, for all of it, the bulk of your users seem
>>>>>>completely clued out as to what is going on with the Webwork merger.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>For example, you get people flaming me because I am saying that
>>
>>Webwork
>>
>>>>>>is better than Struts. They say "stop bashing Struts". But I am saying
>>>>>>exactly what the Struts developers are saying! They have accepted that
>>>>>>Webwork is better than Struts! So am I supposed to be more catholic
>>
>>than
>>
>>>>>>the pope?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Also these people assume that I must be a Webwork developer. Somebody
>>>>>>wrote a spoof of me in which I was praising Webwork to the skies! I
>>
>>have
>>
>>>>>>nothing to do with Webwork. I have never even used it. When I say
>>>>>>Webwork is better, I am simply echoing what the Struts PMC are already
>>>>>>saying.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>So, I mean, some of this is just going on because people don't know
>>>>>>what's going on. I see a real communications failure.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>If people really knew that the current Struts 1.x codebase is being
>>>>>>abandoned, you would think that there would be a lot more threads on
>>>>>>this list about migration issues. "I've got this Struts 1.x App and I
>>>>>>just was having a look at Webwork, which is going to be Struts Action
>>
>>2
>>
>>>>>>and have various questions about how my app can be migrated...." I
>>
>>don't
>>
>>>>>>see threads like that, which means to me that you have not
>>
>>communicated
>>
>>>>>>to your rank and file users what is really going on here.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Now, if there really is a problem in terms of user<->developer
>>>>>>communication here, it would explain why the process whereby certain
>>>>>>power users become collaborators is not happening as often as it
>>
>>should.
>>
>>>>>>And this would be a factor in the stagnation.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Certainly, given the size of the user community, even if 1 in 100
>>
>>people
>>
>>>>>>eventually became committers via that process, you would have a lot of
>>>>>>active committers.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>That a community like webwork with far fewer users nonetheless has a
>>>>>>more active, real developer team, is really something to look at.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Certainly, in earlier discussions, most people just seemed to think
>>
>>that
>>
>>>>>>it was really hard to become a commmitters. So if that is a
>>>>>>misconception, it is a widely held one. There's something odd going on
>>
>>here.
>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Another answer to the question is "it hasn't stagnated -
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Stop, Niall, stop. That's not an answer. :-) Let's not go around
>>>>>>completely in circles.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>we've moved on to
>>>>>>>Shale" and that is the future for existing Struts users.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Well, if that is the case, you haven't communicated it to your users.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I grant that if you are going to communicate something to your users,
>>>>>>you should probably have a consistent message. The Action/Shale
>>>>>>cohabitation seems to almost preclude having a consistent message.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Anyway, JSF/Shale is just something completely different
>>>>>>paradigmatically and the idea of that as "Struts 2" is really quite
>>
>>odd.
>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Clearly there are
>>>>>>>quite a few people that will disagree with this - but also alot that
>>
>>will
>>
>>>>>>>say "great I buy JSF as the future and I'm glad the Struts project
>>
>>has an
>>
>>>>>>>offering that supports this".
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Well, unless you are offering migration tools or a compatibility layer
>>>>>>or something, how does it benefit your users that Shale is under the
>>>>>>"Struts umbrella" any more than if it was a separate project? I mean,
>>>>>>it's a paradigmatic shift that you have to get head around either way
>>>>>>and existing apps would need to be refactored.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>At the end of the day though this does seem academic, - since we now
>>
>>have two
>>
>>>>>>>offering for whatever camp you fall into (component orientated or
>>
>>action
>>
>>>>>>>orientated) and from my point of view the really good thing about the
>>>>>>>WebWork merger is not only the great software were getting - but also
>>
>>the
>>
>>>>>>>talented new blood thats coming into the project.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Well, if you accept that the Webwork people just ran the better
>>
>>project,
>>
>>>>>>you guys failed to keep Struts 1.x going at least in terms of
>>
>>innovation
>>
>>>>>>and development, then by that logic, the current Struts PMC should
>>
>>just
>>
>>>>>>step down probably and let the Webwork people run the show.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>If the same PMC that presided over technical stagnation before is
>>
>>going
>>
>>>>>>to remain the managers of the project, then I think it isn't an
>>
>>academic
>>
>>>>>>question. You have to examine the mistakes you made before.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>So I've given my answer to the question - now can we let this list
>>
>>get back
>>
>>>>>>>to helping and answering user questions - which is its main purpose?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Niall, I don't know what you're talking about here. I see no sign that
>>>>>>the list stopped helping people and answering their questions due to
>>
>>the
>>
>>>>>>presence of this thread.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>You were giving some signs that you now were willing to talk about
>>
>>this.
>>
>>>>>>You've had a certain say about this now. You've stepped forward and
>>
>>said
>>
>>>>>>the topic is not taboo. Well, now you're saying, let's not talk about
>>
>>it
>>
>>>>>>any more, i.e. I broke the taboo temporarily to get this guy off my
>>>>>>back, but nudge nudge, wink, wink, the topic really is taboo.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Okay, maybe that wasn't your intent, but if not, and the topic isn't
>>>>>>taboo, how do you know other people don't have opinions to express
>>
>>now?
>>
>>>>>>Again, the idea that this is an either-or proposition and the list has
>>>>>>to choose between talking about this and helping people by answering
>>>>>>technical questions is actually absurd, isn't it?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Jonathan Revusky
>>>>>>--
>>>>>>lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Niall
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
>>>>>>For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>--
>>>>>Ghetto Java: http://www.ghettojava.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
>>>>For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>--
>>>Ghetto Java: http://www.ghettojava.com
>>
>>
>>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
>>For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
>>
>>
>
>
>
> --
> http://www.multitask.com.au/people/dion/
> Chuck Norris sleeps with a night light. Not because Chuck Norris is afraid
> of the dark, but because the dark is afraid of Chuck Norris
>
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Re: Why did Struts development stagnate?
Posted by Dion Gillard <di...@gmail.com>.
Jonathan,
do you have a list of things that are technically wrong with Struts 1.x?
On 3/30/06, Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es> wrote:
>
> Vinny wrote:
> > There have been many time in history when an individual
> > catholic _has_ been more catholic than the Pope.
> > I am simply giving my opinion.
>
> Well, that's true, I guess. You've got a point there, Vinny.
>
> So, yeah, feel free. Be more catholic than the pope. Keep maintaining
> that Struts 1.x is great stuff after the Struts developers themselves
> have abandoned it in favor of Webwork.
>
> Jonathan Revusky
> --
> lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/
>
>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On 3/29/06, Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es> wrote:
> >
> >>Vinny wrote:
> >>
> >>>I still say that struts 1.x has not "lost" to webwork.
> >>>When I do a quick unscientific search on monster.com for
> >>>"struts" I get over 1000 jobs listed. The same search for "webwork"
> >>>yields 22 jobs. Apparently struts "won" on the business front,
> >>
> >>That's a different question entirely. The question posed up top here in
> >>the subject line is: "Why did Struts development stagnate?"
> >>
> >>Actually, you could append to that question, given this above data --
> >>"Why did Struts development stagnate -- *despite* having such a huge
> >>user community and so on and so forth.... as documented above...."
> >>
> >>
> >>>I don't think that is even debatable.
> >>
> >>Well, I don't either. That's why that is not the subject of the debate.
> >>
> >>
> >>>Now if we want to talk about
> >>>technical prowess then maybe Jonathan might have a point.
> >>
> >>It was about technical prowess. "Struts development" -- the fact that
> >>the Struts developers have abandoned the 1.x codebase decided to base
> >>"Struts Action 2" on the Webwork codebase.
> >>
> >>
> >>>I can't comment
> >>>on it because like a good little scientist I'd like to do some
> >>>experiments first.
> >>
> >>Well, look, Vinny, if the Struts developers themselves prefer to base
> >>Struts 2 on Webwork, they are saying that Webwork is technically better.
> >>If you want to defend Struts 1.x after that, then you're in the position
> >>of being more catholic than the pope.
> >>
> >>Jonathan Revusky
> >>--
> >>lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/
> >>
> >>
> >>>To me this seems like a nice merger that benefits both projects.
> >>>The betamax vs VHS , RISC vs CISC, frameworkC vs frameworkD, Bush vs
> Kerry
> >>>debates are rapidly becoming background noise to me.
> >>>
> >>>On 3/29/06, Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>Niall Pemberton wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>----- Original Message -----
> >>>>>From: "Jonathan Revusky" <re...@wanadoo.es>
> >>>>>Sent: Saturday, March 25, 2006 11:27 PM
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>It still seems broadly on-topic to me. It's certainly a legitimate,
> >>>>>>well-formulated question.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>Seriously, the only other possibility I see is struts-dev. If it's
> >>>>>>off-topic on both struts-user and struts-dev, then the question
> really
> >>>>>>is (as I am starting to suppose) basically taboo.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>The question isn't taboo - I posed the same kind of thing (and
> offered one
> >>>>>perspective) in an earlier thread:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.jakarta.struts.user/122903
> >>>>>
> >>>>>However I don't think what I said in that thread was the whole story
> -
> >>>>>clearly frameworks such as WebWork succeeded and I assume they were a
> >>>>>volunteer effort as well.
> >>>>
> >>>>Yes, the bulk of your explanation there seemed to be that Struts was
> an
> >>>>all-volunteer effort and so on.
> >>>>
> >>>>This could not possibly be why it fell behind Webwork.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>We currently have 22 committers on Struts -
> >>>>
> >>>>Out of curiosity, what is your rough guess as to how many of these 22
> >>>>people committed any code in the last... year, let's say.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>but levels of activity vary
> >>>>>widely and I would say that the type of talented people it takes to
> drive a
> >>>>>project forward (and I don't include myself in that group) no longer
> have an
> >>>>>interest in doing so on the Action 1 side - for various reasons.
> People such
> >>>>>as Craig put their effort into developing the JSF standard and see
> that as
> >>>>>the future for web development and that is where they now concentrate
> their
> >>>>>effort. Don was doing alot of work inovating with Struts Ti
> >>>>
> >>>>Well, I was not aware of this. However, you mean that Struts TI was a
> >>>>complete rewrite of the framework? I mean, was there a tacit
> assumption
> >>>>there that Struts 1.x could not be evolved forward and required a
> >>>>complete rewrite?
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>and had the
> >>>>>offer to merge not come along from WebWork - we would probably be
> seeing the
> >>>>>fruits of his efforts as Action2 and not even discussing "stagnation"
> at
> >>>>>this point. Ted was AWOL doing C# for a while (hes been "back" for a
> while
> >>>>>which is good :-), Martin seems focused on javascript etc. etc. So I
> guess
> >>>>>this leads to the next question "Well why didn't we attract new
> talented
> >>>>>people into the project that would drive Struts forward?" This I
> don't
> >>>>>know - seems that lots of people decided to go invent their own web
> >>>>>framework (YAWF) rather than get involved with Struts. Some of that
> is
> >>>>>certainly their own egos being the "founder of a framework" and some
> of it I
> >>>>>believe is the compatibility issue - its far easier to write a brand
> new
> >>>>>shiny web framework when not hampered by backwards compatibility.
> Whether we
> >>>>>as a community "put them off" I have no knowledge - but I've never
> seem that
> >>>>>proferred anywhere as a reason. It was always something like "Struts
> sucks
> >>>>>because of x, y and z and my brand new shiny framework does it
> better".
> >>>>>Course its far easier to invent a new framework by looking at
> existing ones
> >>>>>and seeing how you can improve them. Back to the "new people"
> question
> >>>>>though - its not my perspective that we have lots of people knocking
> at the
> >>>>>door trying to give us contributions and we're turning them away. I
> believe
> >>>>>its easy to become a Struts committer - you offer reasonable code,
> are
> >>>>>helpful in the community (e.g. answering questions on the user list),
> been
> >>>>>around a while and don't start flame wars or attack people personally
> - then
> >>>>>you get asked. Theres probably 2/3 people who probably think they
> should
> >>>>>have been asked, but haven't - they may or may no have a point - but
> besides
> >>>>>them I don't see it as a case of Struts excluding people and I don't
> have an
> >>>>>explanation for why there are not hoards of people wanting to join.
> >>>>
> >>>>Well, first of all, on the question of people going off and doing
> their
> >>>>own framework, you have to basically figure that some of these people
> >>>>just didn't think that they could apply their ideas in this setting.
> If
> >>>>somebody with a fire in their belly and some innovative ideas had
> showed
> >>>>up here and wanted to work on that, would they have been able to do
> so?
> >>>>
> >>>>After all, the fact remains that everybody knows that any work they do
> >>>>under the ASF umbrella will get much more attention and usage than it
> >>>>would otherwise. This is the main (probably the only) reason that the
> >>>>Webwork people have come here. So, a priori, your saying that you
> aren't
> >>>>attracting collaborators is really quite odd, isn't it?
> >>>>
> >>>>The thing is, Niall, that pretty much all the times you get a new
> >>>>collaborator, that person was first a user. Typically that someone is
> a
> >>>>"power user", and is pushing the limits of what the tool can do, and
> >>>>starts donating code to make the tool more powerful, and next thing
> you
> >>>>know, the guy is a collaborator.
> >>>>
> >>>>Now, you've got a lot of users, so that this basic mechanism doesn't
> >>>>operate is rather odd.
> >>>>
> >>>>What I have noticed is that the communication with your user community
> >>>>is rather poor. Basically, for all of it, the bulk of your users seem
> >>>>completely clued out as to what is going on with the Webwork merger.
> >>>>
> >>>>For example, you get people flaming me because I am saying that
> Webwork
> >>>>is better than Struts. They say "stop bashing Struts". But I am saying
> >>>>exactly what the Struts developers are saying! They have accepted that
> >>>>Webwork is better than Struts! So am I supposed to be more catholic
> than
> >>>>the pope?
> >>>>
> >>>>Also these people assume that I must be a Webwork developer. Somebody
> >>>>wrote a spoof of me in which I was praising Webwork to the skies! I
> have
> >>>>nothing to do with Webwork. I have never even used it. When I say
> >>>>Webwork is better, I am simply echoing what the Struts PMC are already
> >>>>saying.
> >>>>
> >>>>So, I mean, some of this is just going on because people don't know
> >>>>what's going on. I see a real communications failure.
> >>>>
> >>>>If people really knew that the current Struts 1.x codebase is being
> >>>>abandoned, you would think that there would be a lot more threads on
> >>>>this list about migration issues. "I've got this Struts 1.x App and I
> >>>>just was having a look at Webwork, which is going to be Struts Action
> 2
> >>>>and have various questions about how my app can be migrated...." I
> don't
> >>>>see threads like that, which means to me that you have not
> communicated
> >>>>to your rank and file users what is really going on here.
> >>>>
> >>>>Now, if there really is a problem in terms of user<->developer
> >>>>communication here, it would explain why the process whereby certain
> >>>>power users become collaborators is not happening as often as it
> should.
> >>>>And this would be a factor in the stagnation.
> >>>>
> >>>>Certainly, given the size of the user community, even if 1 in 100
> people
> >>>>eventually became committers via that process, you would have a lot of
> >>>>active committers.
> >>>>
> >>>>That a community like webwork with far fewer users nonetheless has a
> >>>>more active, real developer team, is really something to look at.
> >>>>
> >>>>Certainly, in earlier discussions, most people just seemed to think
> that
> >>>>it was really hard to become a commmitters. So if that is a
> >>>>misconception, it is a widely held one. There's something odd going on
> here.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>Another answer to the question is "it hasn't stagnated -
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>Stop, Niall, stop. That's not an answer. :-) Let's not go around
> >>>>completely in circles.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>we've moved on to
> >>>>>Shale" and that is the future for existing Struts users.
> >>>>
> >>>>Well, if that is the case, you haven't communicated it to your users.
> >>>>
> >>>>I grant that if you are going to communicate something to your users,
> >>>>you should probably have a consistent message. The Action/Shale
> >>>>cohabitation seems to almost preclude having a consistent message.
> >>>>
> >>>>Anyway, JSF/Shale is just something completely different
> >>>>paradigmatically and the idea of that as "Struts 2" is really quite
> odd.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>Clearly there are
> >>>>>quite a few people that will disagree with this - but also alot that
> will
> >>>>>say "great I buy JSF as the future and I'm glad the Struts project
> has an
> >>>>>offering that supports this".
> >>>>
> >>>>Well, unless you are offering migration tools or a compatibility layer
> >>>>or something, how does it benefit your users that Shale is under the
> >>>>"Struts umbrella" any more than if it was a separate project? I mean,
> >>>>it's a paradigmatic shift that you have to get head around either way
> >>>>and existing apps would need to be refactored.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>At the end of the day though this does seem academic, - since we now
> have two
> >>>>>offering for whatever camp you fall into (component orientated or
> action
> >>>>>orientated) and from my point of view the really good thing about the
> >>>>>WebWork merger is not only the great software were getting - but also
> the
> >>>>>talented new blood thats coming into the project.
> >>>>
> >>>>Well, if you accept that the Webwork people just ran the better
> project,
> >>>>you guys failed to keep Struts 1.x going at least in terms of
> innovation
> >>>>and development, then by that logic, the current Struts PMC should
> just
> >>>>step down probably and let the Webwork people run the show.
> >>>>
> >>>>If the same PMC that presided over technical stagnation before is
> going
> >>>>to remain the managers of the project, then I think it isn't an
> academic
> >>>>question. You have to examine the mistakes you made before.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>So I've given my answer to the question - now can we let this list
> get back
> >>>>>to helping and answering user questions - which is its main purpose?
> >>>>
> >>>>Niall, I don't know what you're talking about here. I see no sign that
> >>>>the list stopped helping people and answering their questions due to
> the
> >>>>presence of this thread.
> >>>>
> >>>>You were giving some signs that you now were willing to talk about
> this.
> >>>>You've had a certain say about this now. You've stepped forward and
> said
> >>>>the topic is not taboo. Well, now you're saying, let's not talk about
> it
> >>>>any more, i.e. I broke the taboo temporarily to get this guy off my
> >>>>back, but nudge nudge, wink, wink, the topic really is taboo.
> >>>>
> >>>>Okay, maybe that wasn't your intent, but if not, and the topic isn't
> >>>>taboo, how do you know other people don't have opinions to express
> now?
> >>>>
> >>>>Again, the idea that this is an either-or proposition and the list has
> >>>>to choose between talking about this and helping people by answering
> >>>>technical questions is actually absurd, isn't it?
> >>>>
> >>>>Jonathan Revusky
> >>>>--
> >>>>lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>Niall
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>>To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> >>>>For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>--
> >>>Ghetto Java: http://www.ghettojava.com
> >>
> >>
> >>---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> >>For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Ghetto Java: http://www.ghettojava.com
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
>
>
--
http://www.multitask.com.au/people/dion/
Chuck Norris sleeps with a night light. Not because Chuck Norris is afraid
of the dark, but because the dark is afraid of Chuck Norris
Re: Why did Struts development stagnate?
Posted by Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es>.
Vinny wrote:
> There have been many time in history when an individual
> catholic _has_ been more catholic than the Pope.
> I am simply giving my opinion.
Well, that's true, I guess. You've got a point there, Vinny.
So, yeah, feel free. Be more catholic than the pope. Keep maintaining
that Struts 1.x is great stuff after the Struts developers themselves
have abandoned it in favor of Webwork.
Jonathan Revusky
--
lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/
>
>
>
>
> On 3/29/06, Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es> wrote:
>
>>Vinny wrote:
>>
>>>I still say that struts 1.x has not "lost" to webwork.
>>>When I do a quick unscientific search on monster.com for
>>>"struts" I get over 1000 jobs listed. The same search for "webwork"
>>>yields 22 jobs. Apparently struts "won" on the business front,
>>
>>That's a different question entirely. The question posed up top here in
>>the subject line is: "Why did Struts development stagnate?"
>>
>>Actually, you could append to that question, given this above data --
>>"Why did Struts development stagnate -- *despite* having such a huge
>>user community and so on and so forth.... as documented above...."
>>
>>
>>>I don't think that is even debatable.
>>
>>Well, I don't either. That's why that is not the subject of the debate.
>>
>>
>>>Now if we want to talk about
>>>technical prowess then maybe Jonathan might have a point.
>>
>>It was about technical prowess. "Struts development" -- the fact that
>>the Struts developers have abandoned the 1.x codebase decided to base
>>"Struts Action 2" on the Webwork codebase.
>>
>>
>>>I can't comment
>>>on it because like a good little scientist I'd like to do some
>>>experiments first.
>>
>>Well, look, Vinny, if the Struts developers themselves prefer to base
>>Struts 2 on Webwork, they are saying that Webwork is technically better.
>>If you want to defend Struts 1.x after that, then you're in the position
>>of being more catholic than the pope.
>>
>>Jonathan Revusky
>>--
>>lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/
>>
>>
>>>To me this seems like a nice merger that benefits both projects.
>>>The betamax vs VHS , RISC vs CISC, frameworkC vs frameworkD, Bush vs Kerry
>>>debates are rapidly becoming background noise to me.
>>>
>>>On 3/29/06, Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Niall Pemberton wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>>>From: "Jonathan Revusky" <re...@wanadoo.es>
>>>>>Sent: Saturday, March 25, 2006 11:27 PM
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>It still seems broadly on-topic to me. It's certainly a legitimate,
>>>>>>well-formulated question.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Seriously, the only other possibility I see is struts-dev. If it's
>>>>>>off-topic on both struts-user and struts-dev, then the question really
>>>>>>is (as I am starting to suppose) basically taboo.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>The question isn't taboo - I posed the same kind of thing (and offered one
>>>>>perspective) in an earlier thread:
>>>>>
>>>>>http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.jakarta.struts.user/122903
>>>>>
>>>>>However I don't think what I said in that thread was the whole story -
>>>>>clearly frameworks such as WebWork succeeded and I assume they were a
>>>>>volunteer effort as well.
>>>>
>>>>Yes, the bulk of your explanation there seemed to be that Struts was an
>>>>all-volunteer effort and so on.
>>>>
>>>>This could not possibly be why it fell behind Webwork.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>We currently have 22 committers on Struts -
>>>>
>>>>Out of curiosity, what is your rough guess as to how many of these 22
>>>>people committed any code in the last... year, let's say.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>but levels of activity vary
>>>>>widely and I would say that the type of talented people it takes to drive a
>>>>>project forward (and I don't include myself in that group) no longer have an
>>>>>interest in doing so on the Action 1 side - for various reasons. People such
>>>>>as Craig put their effort into developing the JSF standard and see that as
>>>>>the future for web development and that is where they now concentrate their
>>>>>effort. Don was doing alot of work inovating with Struts Ti
>>>>
>>>>Well, I was not aware of this. However, you mean that Struts TI was a
>>>>complete rewrite of the framework? I mean, was there a tacit assumption
>>>>there that Struts 1.x could not be evolved forward and required a
>>>>complete rewrite?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>and had the
>>>>>offer to merge not come along from WebWork - we would probably be seeing the
>>>>>fruits of his efforts as Action2 and not even discussing "stagnation" at
>>>>>this point. Ted was AWOL doing C# for a while (hes been "back" for a while
>>>>>which is good :-), Martin seems focused on javascript etc. etc. So I guess
>>>>>this leads to the next question "Well why didn't we attract new talented
>>>>>people into the project that would drive Struts forward?" This I don't
>>>>>know - seems that lots of people decided to go invent their own web
>>>>>framework (YAWF) rather than get involved with Struts. Some of that is
>>>>>certainly their own egos being the "founder of a framework" and some of it I
>>>>>believe is the compatibility issue - its far easier to write a brand new
>>>>>shiny web framework when not hampered by backwards compatibility. Whether we
>>>>>as a community "put them off" I have no knowledge - but I've never seem that
>>>>>proferred anywhere as a reason. It was always something like "Struts sucks
>>>>>because of x, y and z and my brand new shiny framework does it better".
>>>>>Course its far easier to invent a new framework by looking at existing ones
>>>>>and seeing how you can improve them. Back to the "new people" question
>>>>>though - its not my perspective that we have lots of people knocking at the
>>>>>door trying to give us contributions and we're turning them away. I believe
>>>>>its easy to become a Struts committer - you offer reasonable code, are
>>>>>helpful in the community (e.g. answering questions on the user list), been
>>>>>around a while and don't start flame wars or attack people personally - then
>>>>>you get asked. Theres probably 2/3 people who probably think they should
>>>>>have been asked, but haven't - they may or may no have a point - but besides
>>>>>them I don't see it as a case of Struts excluding people and I don't have an
>>>>>explanation for why there are not hoards of people wanting to join.
>>>>
>>>>Well, first of all, on the question of people going off and doing their
>>>>own framework, you have to basically figure that some of these people
>>>>just didn't think that they could apply their ideas in this setting. If
>>>>somebody with a fire in their belly and some innovative ideas had showed
>>>>up here and wanted to work on that, would they have been able to do so?
>>>>
>>>>After all, the fact remains that everybody knows that any work they do
>>>>under the ASF umbrella will get much more attention and usage than it
>>>>would otherwise. This is the main (probably the only) reason that the
>>>>Webwork people have come here. So, a priori, your saying that you aren't
>>>>attracting collaborators is really quite odd, isn't it?
>>>>
>>>>The thing is, Niall, that pretty much all the times you get a new
>>>>collaborator, that person was first a user. Typically that someone is a
>>>>"power user", and is pushing the limits of what the tool can do, and
>>>>starts donating code to make the tool more powerful, and next thing you
>>>>know, the guy is a collaborator.
>>>>
>>>>Now, you've got a lot of users, so that this basic mechanism doesn't
>>>>operate is rather odd.
>>>>
>>>>What I have noticed is that the communication with your user community
>>>>is rather poor. Basically, for all of it, the bulk of your users seem
>>>>completely clued out as to what is going on with the Webwork merger.
>>>>
>>>>For example, you get people flaming me because I am saying that Webwork
>>>>is better than Struts. They say "stop bashing Struts". But I am saying
>>>>exactly what the Struts developers are saying! They have accepted that
>>>>Webwork is better than Struts! So am I supposed to be more catholic than
>>>>the pope?
>>>>
>>>>Also these people assume that I must be a Webwork developer. Somebody
>>>>wrote a spoof of me in which I was praising Webwork to the skies! I have
>>>>nothing to do with Webwork. I have never even used it. When I say
>>>>Webwork is better, I am simply echoing what the Struts PMC are already
>>>>saying.
>>>>
>>>>So, I mean, some of this is just going on because people don't know
>>>>what's going on. I see a real communications failure.
>>>>
>>>>If people really knew that the current Struts 1.x codebase is being
>>>>abandoned, you would think that there would be a lot more threads on
>>>>this list about migration issues. "I've got this Struts 1.x App and I
>>>>just was having a look at Webwork, which is going to be Struts Action 2
>>>>and have various questions about how my app can be migrated...." I don't
>>>>see threads like that, which means to me that you have not communicated
>>>>to your rank and file users what is really going on here.
>>>>
>>>>Now, if there really is a problem in terms of user<->developer
>>>>communication here, it would explain why the process whereby certain
>>>>power users become collaborators is not happening as often as it should.
>>>>And this would be a factor in the stagnation.
>>>>
>>>>Certainly, given the size of the user community, even if 1 in 100 people
>>>>eventually became committers via that process, you would have a lot of
>>>>active committers.
>>>>
>>>>That a community like webwork with far fewer users nonetheless has a
>>>>more active, real developer team, is really something to look at.
>>>>
>>>>Certainly, in earlier discussions, most people just seemed to think that
>>>>it was really hard to become a commmitters. So if that is a
>>>>misconception, it is a widely held one. There's something odd going on here.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Another answer to the question is "it hasn't stagnated -
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Stop, Niall, stop. That's not an answer. :-) Let's not go around
>>>>completely in circles.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>we've moved on to
>>>>>Shale" and that is the future for existing Struts users.
>>>>
>>>>Well, if that is the case, you haven't communicated it to your users.
>>>>
>>>>I grant that if you are going to communicate something to your users,
>>>>you should probably have a consistent message. The Action/Shale
>>>>cohabitation seems to almost preclude having a consistent message.
>>>>
>>>>Anyway, JSF/Shale is just something completely different
>>>>paradigmatically and the idea of that as "Struts 2" is really quite odd.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Clearly there are
>>>>>quite a few people that will disagree with this - but also alot that will
>>>>>say "great I buy JSF as the future and I'm glad the Struts project has an
>>>>>offering that supports this".
>>>>
>>>>Well, unless you are offering migration tools or a compatibility layer
>>>>or something, how does it benefit your users that Shale is under the
>>>>"Struts umbrella" any more than if it was a separate project? I mean,
>>>>it's a paradigmatic shift that you have to get head around either way
>>>>and existing apps would need to be refactored.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>At the end of the day though this does seem academic, - since we now have two
>>>>>offering for whatever camp you fall into (component orientated or action
>>>>>orientated) and from my point of view the really good thing about the
>>>>>WebWork merger is not only the great software were getting - but also the
>>>>>talented new blood thats coming into the project.
>>>>
>>>>Well, if you accept that the Webwork people just ran the better project,
>>>>you guys failed to keep Struts 1.x going at least in terms of innovation
>>>>and development, then by that logic, the current Struts PMC should just
>>>>step down probably and let the Webwork people run the show.
>>>>
>>>>If the same PMC that presided over technical stagnation before is going
>>>>to remain the managers of the project, then I think it isn't an academic
>>>>question. You have to examine the mistakes you made before.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>So I've given my answer to the question - now can we let this list get back
>>>>>to helping and answering user questions - which is its main purpose?
>>>>
>>>>Niall, I don't know what you're talking about here. I see no sign that
>>>>the list stopped helping people and answering their questions due to the
>>>>presence of this thread.
>>>>
>>>>You were giving some signs that you now were willing to talk about this.
>>>>You've had a certain say about this now. You've stepped forward and said
>>>>the topic is not taboo. Well, now you're saying, let's not talk about it
>>>>any more, i.e. I broke the taboo temporarily to get this guy off my
>>>>back, but nudge nudge, wink, wink, the topic really is taboo.
>>>>
>>>>Okay, maybe that wasn't your intent, but if not, and the topic isn't
>>>>taboo, how do you know other people don't have opinions to express now?
>>>>
>>>>Again, the idea that this is an either-or proposition and the list has
>>>>to choose between talking about this and helping people by answering
>>>>technical questions is actually absurd, isn't it?
>>>>
>>>>Jonathan Revusky
>>>>--
>>>>lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Niall
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
>>>>For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>--
>>>Ghetto Java: http://www.ghettojava.com
>>
>>
>>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
>>For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
>>
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Ghetto Java: http://www.ghettojava.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------
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For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
Re: Why did Struts development stagnate?
Posted by Vinny <xa...@gmail.com>.
There have been many time in history when an individual
catholic _has_ been more catholic than the Pope.
I am simply giving my opinion.
On 3/29/06, Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es> wrote:
> Vinny wrote:
> > I still say that struts 1.x has not "lost" to webwork.
> > When I do a quick unscientific search on monster.com for
> > "struts" I get over 1000 jobs listed. The same search for "webwork"
> > yields 22 jobs. Apparently struts "won" on the business front,
>
> That's a different question entirely. The question posed up top here in
> the subject line is: "Why did Struts development stagnate?"
>
> Actually, you could append to that question, given this above data --
> "Why did Struts development stagnate -- *despite* having such a huge
> user community and so on and so forth.... as documented above...."
>
> > I don't think that is even debatable.
>
> Well, I don't either. That's why that is not the subject of the debate.
>
> > Now if we want to talk about
> > technical prowess then maybe Jonathan might have a point.
>
> It was about technical prowess. "Struts development" -- the fact that
> the Struts developers have abandoned the 1.x codebase decided to base
> "Struts Action 2" on the Webwork codebase.
>
> > I can't comment
> > on it because like a good little scientist I'd like to do some
> > experiments first.
>
> Well, look, Vinny, if the Struts developers themselves prefer to base
> Struts 2 on Webwork, they are saying that Webwork is technically better.
> If you want to defend Struts 1.x after that, then you're in the position
> of being more catholic than the pope.
>
> Jonathan Revusky
> --
> lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/
>
> > To me this seems like a nice merger that benefits both projects.
> > The betamax vs VHS , RISC vs CISC, frameworkC vs frameworkD, Bush vs Kerry
> > debates are rapidly becoming background noise to me.
> >
> > On 3/29/06, Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es> wrote:
> >
> >>Niall Pemberton wrote:
> >>
> >>>----- Original Message -----
> >>>From: "Jonathan Revusky" <re...@wanadoo.es>
> >>>Sent: Saturday, March 25, 2006 11:27 PM
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>It still seems broadly on-topic to me. It's certainly a legitimate,
> >>>>well-formulated question.
> >>>>
> >>>>Seriously, the only other possibility I see is struts-dev. If it's
> >>>>off-topic on both struts-user and struts-dev, then the question really
> >>>>is (as I am starting to suppose) basically taboo.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>The question isn't taboo - I posed the same kind of thing (and offered one
> >>>perspective) in an earlier thread:
> >>>
> >>>http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.jakarta.struts.user/122903
> >>>
> >>>However I don't think what I said in that thread was the whole story -
> >>>clearly frameworks such as WebWork succeeded and I assume they were a
> >>>volunteer effort as well.
> >>
> >>Yes, the bulk of your explanation there seemed to be that Struts was an
> >>all-volunteer effort and so on.
> >>
> >>This could not possibly be why it fell behind Webwork.
> >>
> >>
> >>>We currently have 22 committers on Struts -
> >>
> >>Out of curiosity, what is your rough guess as to how many of these 22
> >>people committed any code in the last... year, let's say.
> >>
> >>
> >>>but levels of activity vary
> >>>widely and I would say that the type of talented people it takes to drive a
> >>>project forward (and I don't include myself in that group) no longer have an
> >>>interest in doing so on the Action 1 side - for various reasons. People such
> >>>as Craig put their effort into developing the JSF standard and see that as
> >>>the future for web development and that is where they now concentrate their
> >>>effort. Don was doing alot of work inovating with Struts Ti
> >>
> >>Well, I was not aware of this. However, you mean that Struts TI was a
> >>complete rewrite of the framework? I mean, was there a tacit assumption
> >>there that Struts 1.x could not be evolved forward and required a
> >>complete rewrite?
> >>
> >>
> >>>and had the
> >>>offer to merge not come along from WebWork - we would probably be seeing the
> >>>fruits of his efforts as Action2 and not even discussing "stagnation" at
> >>>this point. Ted was AWOL doing C# for a while (hes been "back" for a while
> >>>which is good :-), Martin seems focused on javascript etc. etc. So I guess
> >>>this leads to the next question "Well why didn't we attract new talented
> >>>people into the project that would drive Struts forward?" This I don't
> >>>know - seems that lots of people decided to go invent their own web
> >>>framework (YAWF) rather than get involved with Struts. Some of that is
> >>>certainly their own egos being the "founder of a framework" and some of it I
> >>>believe is the compatibility issue - its far easier to write a brand new
> >>>shiny web framework when not hampered by backwards compatibility. Whether we
> >>>as a community "put them off" I have no knowledge - but I've never seem that
> >>>proferred anywhere as a reason. It was always something like "Struts sucks
> >>>because of x, y and z and my brand new shiny framework does it better".
> >>>Course its far easier to invent a new framework by looking at existing ones
> >>>and seeing how you can improve them. Back to the "new people" question
> >>>though - its not my perspective that we have lots of people knocking at the
> >>>door trying to give us contributions and we're turning them away. I believe
> >>>its easy to become a Struts committer - you offer reasonable code, are
> >>>helpful in the community (e.g. answering questions on the user list), been
> >>>around a while and don't start flame wars or attack people personally - then
> >>>you get asked. Theres probably 2/3 people who probably think they should
> >>>have been asked, but haven't - they may or may no have a point - but besides
> >>>them I don't see it as a case of Struts excluding people and I don't have an
> >>>explanation for why there are not hoards of people wanting to join.
> >>
> >>Well, first of all, on the question of people going off and doing their
> >>own framework, you have to basically figure that some of these people
> >>just didn't think that they could apply their ideas in this setting. If
> >>somebody with a fire in their belly and some innovative ideas had showed
> >>up here and wanted to work on that, would they have been able to do so?
> >>
> >>After all, the fact remains that everybody knows that any work they do
> >>under the ASF umbrella will get much more attention and usage than it
> >>would otherwise. This is the main (probably the only) reason that the
> >>Webwork people have come here. So, a priori, your saying that you aren't
> >>attracting collaborators is really quite odd, isn't it?
> >>
> >>The thing is, Niall, that pretty much all the times you get a new
> >>collaborator, that person was first a user. Typically that someone is a
> >>"power user", and is pushing the limits of what the tool can do, and
> >>starts donating code to make the tool more powerful, and next thing you
> >>know, the guy is a collaborator.
> >>
> >>Now, you've got a lot of users, so that this basic mechanism doesn't
> >>operate is rather odd.
> >>
> >>What I have noticed is that the communication with your user community
> >>is rather poor. Basically, for all of it, the bulk of your users seem
> >>completely clued out as to what is going on with the Webwork merger.
> >>
> >>For example, you get people flaming me because I am saying that Webwork
> >>is better than Struts. They say "stop bashing Struts". But I am saying
> >>exactly what the Struts developers are saying! They have accepted that
> >>Webwork is better than Struts! So am I supposed to be more catholic than
> >>the pope?
> >>
> >>Also these people assume that I must be a Webwork developer. Somebody
> >>wrote a spoof of me in which I was praising Webwork to the skies! I have
> >>nothing to do with Webwork. I have never even used it. When I say
> >>Webwork is better, I am simply echoing what the Struts PMC are already
> >>saying.
> >>
> >>So, I mean, some of this is just going on because people don't know
> >>what's going on. I see a real communications failure.
> >>
> >>If people really knew that the current Struts 1.x codebase is being
> >>abandoned, you would think that there would be a lot more threads on
> >>this list about migration issues. "I've got this Struts 1.x App and I
> >>just was having a look at Webwork, which is going to be Struts Action 2
> >>and have various questions about how my app can be migrated...." I don't
> >>see threads like that, which means to me that you have not communicated
> >>to your rank and file users what is really going on here.
> >>
> >>Now, if there really is a problem in terms of user<->developer
> >>communication here, it would explain why the process whereby certain
> >>power users become collaborators is not happening as often as it should.
> >>And this would be a factor in the stagnation.
> >>
> >>Certainly, given the size of the user community, even if 1 in 100 people
> >>eventually became committers via that process, you would have a lot of
> >>active committers.
> >>
> >>That a community like webwork with far fewer users nonetheless has a
> >>more active, real developer team, is really something to look at.
> >>
> >>Certainly, in earlier discussions, most people just seemed to think that
> >>it was really hard to become a commmitters. So if that is a
> >>misconception, it is a widely held one. There's something odd going on here.
> >>
> >>
> >>>Another answer to the question is "it hasn't stagnated -
> >>
> >>
> >>Stop, Niall, stop. That's not an answer. :-) Let's not go around
> >>completely in circles.
> >>
> >>
> >>>we've moved on to
> >>>Shale" and that is the future for existing Struts users.
> >>
> >>Well, if that is the case, you haven't communicated it to your users.
> >>
> >>I grant that if you are going to communicate something to your users,
> >>you should probably have a consistent message. The Action/Shale
> >>cohabitation seems to almost preclude having a consistent message.
> >>
> >>Anyway, JSF/Shale is just something completely different
> >>paradigmatically and the idea of that as "Struts 2" is really quite odd.
> >>
> >>
> >>>Clearly there are
> >>>quite a few people that will disagree with this - but also alot that will
> >>>say "great I buy JSF as the future and I'm glad the Struts project has an
> >>>offering that supports this".
> >>
> >>Well, unless you are offering migration tools or a compatibility layer
> >>or something, how does it benefit your users that Shale is under the
> >>"Struts umbrella" any more than if it was a separate project? I mean,
> >>it's a paradigmatic shift that you have to get head around either way
> >>and existing apps would need to be refactored.
> >>
> >>
> >>>At the end of the day though this does seem academic, - since we now have two
> >>>offering for whatever camp you fall into (component orientated or action
> >>>orientated) and from my point of view the really good thing about the
> >>>WebWork merger is not only the great software were getting - but also the
> >>>talented new blood thats coming into the project.
> >>
> >>Well, if you accept that the Webwork people just ran the better project,
> >>you guys failed to keep Struts 1.x going at least in terms of innovation
> >>and development, then by that logic, the current Struts PMC should just
> >>step down probably and let the Webwork people run the show.
> >>
> >>If the same PMC that presided over technical stagnation before is going
> >>to remain the managers of the project, then I think it isn't an academic
> >>question. You have to examine the mistakes you made before.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>>So I've given my answer to the question - now can we let this list get back
> >>>to helping and answering user questions - which is its main purpose?
> >>
> >>Niall, I don't know what you're talking about here. I see no sign that
> >>the list stopped helping people and answering their questions due to the
> >>presence of this thread.
> >>
> >>You were giving some signs that you now were willing to talk about this.
> >>You've had a certain say about this now. You've stepped forward and said
> >>the topic is not taboo. Well, now you're saying, let's not talk about it
> >>any more, i.e. I broke the taboo temporarily to get this guy off my
> >>back, but nudge nudge, wink, wink, the topic really is taboo.
> >>
> >>Okay, maybe that wasn't your intent, but if not, and the topic isn't
> >>taboo, how do you know other people don't have opinions to express now?
> >>
> >>Again, the idea that this is an either-or proposition and the list has
> >>to choose between talking about this and helping people by answering
> >>technical questions is actually absurd, isn't it?
> >>
> >>Jonathan Revusky
> >>--
> >>lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/
> >>
> >>
> >>>Niall
> >>
> >>
> >>---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> >>For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Ghetto Java: http://www.ghettojava.com
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
>
>
--
Ghetto Java: http://www.ghettojava.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: Why did Struts development stagnate?
Posted by Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es>.
Vinny wrote:
> I still say that struts 1.x has not "lost" to webwork.
> When I do a quick unscientific search on monster.com for
> "struts" I get over 1000 jobs listed. The same search for "webwork"
> yields 22 jobs. Apparently struts "won" on the business front,
That's a different question entirely. The question posed up top here in
the subject line is: "Why did Struts development stagnate?"
Actually, you could append to that question, given this above data --
"Why did Struts development stagnate -- *despite* having such a huge
user community and so on and so forth.... as documented above...."
> I don't think that is even debatable.
Well, I don't either. That's why that is not the subject of the debate.
> Now if we want to talk about
> technical prowess then maybe Jonathan might have a point.
It was about technical prowess. "Struts development" -- the fact that
the Struts developers have abandoned the 1.x codebase decided to base
"Struts Action 2" on the Webwork codebase.
> I can't comment
> on it because like a good little scientist I'd like to do some
> experiments first.
Well, look, Vinny, if the Struts developers themselves prefer to base
Struts 2 on Webwork, they are saying that Webwork is technically better.
If you want to defend Struts 1.x after that, then you're in the position
of being more catholic than the pope.
Jonathan Revusky
--
lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/
> To me this seems like a nice merger that benefits both projects.
> The betamax vs VHS , RISC vs CISC, frameworkC vs frameworkD, Bush vs Kerry
> debates are rapidly becoming background noise to me.
>
> On 3/29/06, Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es> wrote:
>
>>Niall Pemberton wrote:
>>
>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>From: "Jonathan Revusky" <re...@wanadoo.es>
>>>Sent: Saturday, March 25, 2006 11:27 PM
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>It still seems broadly on-topic to me. It's certainly a legitimate,
>>>>well-formulated question.
>>>>
>>>>Seriously, the only other possibility I see is struts-dev. If it's
>>>>off-topic on both struts-user and struts-dev, then the question really
>>>>is (as I am starting to suppose) basically taboo.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>The question isn't taboo - I posed the same kind of thing (and offered one
>>>perspective) in an earlier thread:
>>>
>>>http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.jakarta.struts.user/122903
>>>
>>>However I don't think what I said in that thread was the whole story -
>>>clearly frameworks such as WebWork succeeded and I assume they were a
>>>volunteer effort as well.
>>
>>Yes, the bulk of your explanation there seemed to be that Struts was an
>>all-volunteer effort and so on.
>>
>>This could not possibly be why it fell behind Webwork.
>>
>>
>>>We currently have 22 committers on Struts -
>>
>>Out of curiosity, what is your rough guess as to how many of these 22
>>people committed any code in the last... year, let's say.
>>
>>
>>>but levels of activity vary
>>>widely and I would say that the type of talented people it takes to drive a
>>>project forward (and I don't include myself in that group) no longer have an
>>>interest in doing so on the Action 1 side - for various reasons. People such
>>>as Craig put their effort into developing the JSF standard and see that as
>>>the future for web development and that is where they now concentrate their
>>>effort. Don was doing alot of work inovating with Struts Ti
>>
>>Well, I was not aware of this. However, you mean that Struts TI was a
>>complete rewrite of the framework? I mean, was there a tacit assumption
>>there that Struts 1.x could not be evolved forward and required a
>>complete rewrite?
>>
>>
>>>and had the
>>>offer to merge not come along from WebWork - we would probably be seeing the
>>>fruits of his efforts as Action2 and not even discussing "stagnation" at
>>>this point. Ted was AWOL doing C# for a while (hes been "back" for a while
>>>which is good :-), Martin seems focused on javascript etc. etc. So I guess
>>>this leads to the next question "Well why didn't we attract new talented
>>>people into the project that would drive Struts forward?" This I don't
>>>know - seems that lots of people decided to go invent their own web
>>>framework (YAWF) rather than get involved with Struts. Some of that is
>>>certainly their own egos being the "founder of a framework" and some of it I
>>>believe is the compatibility issue - its far easier to write a brand new
>>>shiny web framework when not hampered by backwards compatibility. Whether we
>>>as a community "put them off" I have no knowledge - but I've never seem that
>>>proferred anywhere as a reason. It was always something like "Struts sucks
>>>because of x, y and z and my brand new shiny framework does it better".
>>>Course its far easier to invent a new framework by looking at existing ones
>>>and seeing how you can improve them. Back to the "new people" question
>>>though - its not my perspective that we have lots of people knocking at the
>>>door trying to give us contributions and we're turning them away. I believe
>>>its easy to become a Struts committer - you offer reasonable code, are
>>>helpful in the community (e.g. answering questions on the user list), been
>>>around a while and don't start flame wars or attack people personally - then
>>>you get asked. Theres probably 2/3 people who probably think they should
>>>have been asked, but haven't - they may or may no have a point - but besides
>>>them I don't see it as a case of Struts excluding people and I don't have an
>>>explanation for why there are not hoards of people wanting to join.
>>
>>Well, first of all, on the question of people going off and doing their
>>own framework, you have to basically figure that some of these people
>>just didn't think that they could apply their ideas in this setting. If
>>somebody with a fire in their belly and some innovative ideas had showed
>>up here and wanted to work on that, would they have been able to do so?
>>
>>After all, the fact remains that everybody knows that any work they do
>>under the ASF umbrella will get much more attention and usage than it
>>would otherwise. This is the main (probably the only) reason that the
>>Webwork people have come here. So, a priori, your saying that you aren't
>>attracting collaborators is really quite odd, isn't it?
>>
>>The thing is, Niall, that pretty much all the times you get a new
>>collaborator, that person was first a user. Typically that someone is a
>>"power user", and is pushing the limits of what the tool can do, and
>>starts donating code to make the tool more powerful, and next thing you
>>know, the guy is a collaborator.
>>
>>Now, you've got a lot of users, so that this basic mechanism doesn't
>>operate is rather odd.
>>
>>What I have noticed is that the communication with your user community
>>is rather poor. Basically, for all of it, the bulk of your users seem
>>completely clued out as to what is going on with the Webwork merger.
>>
>>For example, you get people flaming me because I am saying that Webwork
>>is better than Struts. They say "stop bashing Struts". But I am saying
>>exactly what the Struts developers are saying! They have accepted that
>>Webwork is better than Struts! So am I supposed to be more catholic than
>>the pope?
>>
>>Also these people assume that I must be a Webwork developer. Somebody
>>wrote a spoof of me in which I was praising Webwork to the skies! I have
>>nothing to do with Webwork. I have never even used it. When I say
>>Webwork is better, I am simply echoing what the Struts PMC are already
>>saying.
>>
>>So, I mean, some of this is just going on because people don't know
>>what's going on. I see a real communications failure.
>>
>>If people really knew that the current Struts 1.x codebase is being
>>abandoned, you would think that there would be a lot more threads on
>>this list about migration issues. "I've got this Struts 1.x App and I
>>just was having a look at Webwork, which is going to be Struts Action 2
>>and have various questions about how my app can be migrated...." I don't
>>see threads like that, which means to me that you have not communicated
>>to your rank and file users what is really going on here.
>>
>>Now, if there really is a problem in terms of user<->developer
>>communication here, it would explain why the process whereby certain
>>power users become collaborators is not happening as often as it should.
>>And this would be a factor in the stagnation.
>>
>>Certainly, given the size of the user community, even if 1 in 100 people
>>eventually became committers via that process, you would have a lot of
>>active committers.
>>
>>That a community like webwork with far fewer users nonetheless has a
>>more active, real developer team, is really something to look at.
>>
>>Certainly, in earlier discussions, most people just seemed to think that
>>it was really hard to become a commmitters. So if that is a
>>misconception, it is a widely held one. There's something odd going on here.
>>
>>
>>>Another answer to the question is "it hasn't stagnated -
>>
>>
>>Stop, Niall, stop. That's not an answer. :-) Let's not go around
>>completely in circles.
>>
>>
>>>we've moved on to
>>>Shale" and that is the future for existing Struts users.
>>
>>Well, if that is the case, you haven't communicated it to your users.
>>
>>I grant that if you are going to communicate something to your users,
>>you should probably have a consistent message. The Action/Shale
>>cohabitation seems to almost preclude having a consistent message.
>>
>>Anyway, JSF/Shale is just something completely different
>>paradigmatically and the idea of that as "Struts 2" is really quite odd.
>>
>>
>>>Clearly there are
>>>quite a few people that will disagree with this - but also alot that will
>>>say "great I buy JSF as the future and I'm glad the Struts project has an
>>>offering that supports this".
>>
>>Well, unless you are offering migration tools or a compatibility layer
>>or something, how does it benefit your users that Shale is under the
>>"Struts umbrella" any more than if it was a separate project? I mean,
>>it's a paradigmatic shift that you have to get head around either way
>>and existing apps would need to be refactored.
>>
>>
>>>At the end of the day though this does seem academic, - since we now have two
>>>offering for whatever camp you fall into (component orientated or action
>>>orientated) and from my point of view the really good thing about the
>>>WebWork merger is not only the great software were getting - but also the
>>>talented new blood thats coming into the project.
>>
>>Well, if you accept that the Webwork people just ran the better project,
>>you guys failed to keep Struts 1.x going at least in terms of innovation
>>and development, then by that logic, the current Struts PMC should just
>>step down probably and let the Webwork people run the show.
>>
>>If the same PMC that presided over technical stagnation before is going
>>to remain the managers of the project, then I think it isn't an academic
>>question. You have to examine the mistakes you made before.
>>
>>
>>
>>>So I've given my answer to the question - now can we let this list get back
>>>to helping and answering user questions - which is its main purpose?
>>
>>Niall, I don't know what you're talking about here. I see no sign that
>>the list stopped helping people and answering their questions due to the
>>presence of this thread.
>>
>>You were giving some signs that you now were willing to talk about this.
>>You've had a certain say about this now. You've stepped forward and said
>>the topic is not taboo. Well, now you're saying, let's not talk about it
>>any more, i.e. I broke the taboo temporarily to get this guy off my
>>back, but nudge nudge, wink, wink, the topic really is taboo.
>>
>>Okay, maybe that wasn't your intent, but if not, and the topic isn't
>>taboo, how do you know other people don't have opinions to express now?
>>
>>Again, the idea that this is an either-or proposition and the list has
>>to choose between talking about this and helping people by answering
>>technical questions is actually absurd, isn't it?
>>
>>Jonathan Revusky
>>--
>>lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/
>>
>>
>>>Niall
>>
>>
>>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
>>For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
>>
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Ghetto Java: http://www.ghettojava.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
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Re: Why did Struts development stagnate?
Posted by Vinny <xa...@gmail.com>.
I still say that struts 1.x has not "lost" to webwork.
When I do a quick unscientific search on monster.com for
"struts" I get over 1000 jobs listed. The same search for "webwork"
yields 22 jobs. Apparently struts "won" on the business front,
I don't think that is even debatable. Now if we want to talk about
technical prowess then maybe Jonathan might have a point. I can't comment
on it because like a good little scientist I'd like to do some
experiments first.
To me this seems like a nice merger that benefits both projects.
The betamax vs VHS , RISC vs CISC, frameworkC vs frameworkD, Bush vs Kerry
debates are rapidly becoming background noise to me.
On 3/29/06, Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es> wrote:
> Niall Pemberton wrote:
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Jonathan Revusky" <re...@wanadoo.es>
> > Sent: Saturday, March 25, 2006 11:27 PM
> >
> >
> >>It still seems broadly on-topic to me. It's certainly a legitimate,
> >>well-formulated question.
> >>
> >>Seriously, the only other possibility I see is struts-dev. If it's
> >>off-topic on both struts-user and struts-dev, then the question really
> >>is (as I am starting to suppose) basically taboo.
> >
> >
> >
> > The question isn't taboo - I posed the same kind of thing (and offered one
> > perspective) in an earlier thread:
> >
> > http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.jakarta.struts.user/122903
> >
> > However I don't think what I said in that thread was the whole story -
> > clearly frameworks such as WebWork succeeded and I assume they were a
> > volunteer effort as well.
>
> Yes, the bulk of your explanation there seemed to be that Struts was an
> all-volunteer effort and so on.
>
> This could not possibly be why it fell behind Webwork.
>
> >
> > We currently have 22 committers on Struts -
>
> Out of curiosity, what is your rough guess as to how many of these 22
> people committed any code in the last... year, let's say.
>
> > but levels of activity vary
> > widely and I would say that the type of talented people it takes to drive a
> > project forward (and I don't include myself in that group) no longer have an
> > interest in doing so on the Action 1 side - for various reasons. People such
> > as Craig put their effort into developing the JSF standard and see that as
> > the future for web development and that is where they now concentrate their
> > effort. Don was doing alot of work inovating with Struts Ti
>
> Well, I was not aware of this. However, you mean that Struts TI was a
> complete rewrite of the framework? I mean, was there a tacit assumption
> there that Struts 1.x could not be evolved forward and required a
> complete rewrite?
>
> > and had the
> > offer to merge not come along from WebWork - we would probably be seeing the
> > fruits of his efforts as Action2 and not even discussing "stagnation" at
> > this point. Ted was AWOL doing C# for a while (hes been "back" for a while
> > which is good :-), Martin seems focused on javascript etc. etc. So I guess
> > this leads to the next question "Well why didn't we attract new talented
> > people into the project that would drive Struts forward?" This I don't
> > know - seems that lots of people decided to go invent their own web
> > framework (YAWF) rather than get involved with Struts. Some of that is
> > certainly their own egos being the "founder of a framework" and some of it I
> > believe is the compatibility issue - its far easier to write a brand new
> > shiny web framework when not hampered by backwards compatibility. Whether we
> > as a community "put them off" I have no knowledge - but I've never seem that
> > proferred anywhere as a reason. It was always something like "Struts sucks
> > because of x, y and z and my brand new shiny framework does it better".
> > Course its far easier to invent a new framework by looking at existing ones
> > and seeing how you can improve them. Back to the "new people" question
> > though - its not my perspective that we have lots of people knocking at the
> > door trying to give us contributions and we're turning them away. I believe
> > its easy to become a Struts committer - you offer reasonable code, are
> > helpful in the community (e.g. answering questions on the user list), been
> > around a while and don't start flame wars or attack people personally - then
> > you get asked. Theres probably 2/3 people who probably think they should
> > have been asked, but haven't - they may or may no have a point - but besides
> > them I don't see it as a case of Struts excluding people and I don't have an
> > explanation for why there are not hoards of people wanting to join.
>
> Well, first of all, on the question of people going off and doing their
> own framework, you have to basically figure that some of these people
> just didn't think that they could apply their ideas in this setting. If
> somebody with a fire in their belly and some innovative ideas had showed
> up here and wanted to work on that, would they have been able to do so?
>
> After all, the fact remains that everybody knows that any work they do
> under the ASF umbrella will get much more attention and usage than it
> would otherwise. This is the main (probably the only) reason that the
> Webwork people have come here. So, a priori, your saying that you aren't
> attracting collaborators is really quite odd, isn't it?
>
> The thing is, Niall, that pretty much all the times you get a new
> collaborator, that person was first a user. Typically that someone is a
> "power user", and is pushing the limits of what the tool can do, and
> starts donating code to make the tool more powerful, and next thing you
> know, the guy is a collaborator.
>
> Now, you've got a lot of users, so that this basic mechanism doesn't
> operate is rather odd.
>
> What I have noticed is that the communication with your user community
> is rather poor. Basically, for all of it, the bulk of your users seem
> completely clued out as to what is going on with the Webwork merger.
>
> For example, you get people flaming me because I am saying that Webwork
> is better than Struts. They say "stop bashing Struts". But I am saying
> exactly what the Struts developers are saying! They have accepted that
> Webwork is better than Struts! So am I supposed to be more catholic than
> the pope?
>
> Also these people assume that I must be a Webwork developer. Somebody
> wrote a spoof of me in which I was praising Webwork to the skies! I have
> nothing to do with Webwork. I have never even used it. When I say
> Webwork is better, I am simply echoing what the Struts PMC are already
> saying.
>
> So, I mean, some of this is just going on because people don't know
> what's going on. I see a real communications failure.
>
> If people really knew that the current Struts 1.x codebase is being
> abandoned, you would think that there would be a lot more threads on
> this list about migration issues. "I've got this Struts 1.x App and I
> just was having a look at Webwork, which is going to be Struts Action 2
> and have various questions about how my app can be migrated...." I don't
> see threads like that, which means to me that you have not communicated
> to your rank and file users what is really going on here.
>
> Now, if there really is a problem in terms of user<->developer
> communication here, it would explain why the process whereby certain
> power users become collaborators is not happening as often as it should.
> And this would be a factor in the stagnation.
>
> Certainly, given the size of the user community, even if 1 in 100 people
> eventually became committers via that process, you would have a lot of
> active committers.
>
> That a community like webwork with far fewer users nonetheless has a
> more active, real developer team, is really something to look at.
>
> Certainly, in earlier discussions, most people just seemed to think that
> it was really hard to become a commmitters. So if that is a
> misconception, it is a widely held one. There's something odd going on here.
>
> >
> > Another answer to the question is "it hasn't stagnated -
>
>
> Stop, Niall, stop. That's not an answer. :-) Let's not go around
> completely in circles.
>
> > we've moved on to
> > Shale" and that is the future for existing Struts users.
>
> Well, if that is the case, you haven't communicated it to your users.
>
> I grant that if you are going to communicate something to your users,
> you should probably have a consistent message. The Action/Shale
> cohabitation seems to almost preclude having a consistent message.
>
> Anyway, JSF/Shale is just something completely different
> paradigmatically and the idea of that as "Struts 2" is really quite odd.
>
> > Clearly there are
> > quite a few people that will disagree with this - but also alot that will
> > say "great I buy JSF as the future and I'm glad the Struts project has an
> > offering that supports this".
>
> Well, unless you are offering migration tools or a compatibility layer
> or something, how does it benefit your users that Shale is under the
> "Struts umbrella" any more than if it was a separate project? I mean,
> it's a paradigmatic shift that you have to get head around either way
> and existing apps would need to be refactored.
>
> >
> > At the end of the day though this does seem academic, - since we now have two
> > offering for whatever camp you fall into (component orientated or action
> > orientated) and from my point of view the really good thing about the
> > WebWork merger is not only the great software were getting - but also the
> > talented new blood thats coming into the project.
>
> Well, if you accept that the Webwork people just ran the better project,
> you guys failed to keep Struts 1.x going at least in terms of innovation
> and development, then by that logic, the current Struts PMC should just
> step down probably and let the Webwork people run the show.
>
> If the same PMC that presided over technical stagnation before is going
> to remain the managers of the project, then I think it isn't an academic
> question. You have to examine the mistakes you made before.
>
>
> >
> > So I've given my answer to the question - now can we let this list get back
> > to helping and answering user questions - which is its main purpose?
>
> Niall, I don't know what you're talking about here. I see no sign that
> the list stopped helping people and answering their questions due to the
> presence of this thread.
>
> You were giving some signs that you now were willing to talk about this.
> You've had a certain say about this now. You've stepped forward and said
> the topic is not taboo. Well, now you're saying, let's not talk about it
> any more, i.e. I broke the taboo temporarily to get this guy off my
> back, but nudge nudge, wink, wink, the topic really is taboo.
>
> Okay, maybe that wasn't your intent, but if not, and the topic isn't
> taboo, how do you know other people don't have opinions to express now?
>
> Again, the idea that this is an either-or proposition and the list has
> to choose between talking about this and helping people by answering
> technical questions is actually absurd, isn't it?
>
> Jonathan Revusky
> --
> lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/
>
> >
> > Niall
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
>
>
--
Ghetto Java: http://www.ghettojava.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
Re: Why did Struts development stagnate?
Posted by Srinivas Jadcharla <jd...@gmail.com>.
Jonathan Revusky is a Sick Man.Guys please don't respond to his posts.Jonathan
if you don't like struts don't use it ...Is any one commenting on your
framework(freemaker)??Its upto the people who manages the Struts Mailing
List to remove him from the List(or block him)
On 3/29/06, Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es> wrote:
>
> Niall Pemberton wrote:
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Jonathan Revusky" <re...@wanadoo.es>
> > Sent: Saturday, March 25, 2006 11:27 PM
> >
> >
> >>It still seems broadly on-topic to me. It's certainly a legitimate,
> >>well-formulated question.
> >>
> >>Seriously, the only other possibility I see is struts-dev. If it's
> >>off-topic on both struts-user and struts-dev, then the question really
> >>is (as I am starting to suppose) basically taboo.
> >
> >
> >
> > The question isn't taboo - I posed the same kind of thing (and offered
> one
> > perspective) in an earlier thread:
> >
> > http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.jakarta.struts.user/122903
> >
> > However I don't think what I said in that thread was the whole story -
> > clearly frameworks such as WebWork succeeded and I assume they were a
> > volunteer effort as well.
>
> Yes, the bulk of your explanation there seemed to be that Struts was an
> all-volunteer effort and so on.
>
> This could not possibly be why it fell behind Webwork.
>
> >
> > We currently have 22 committers on Struts -
>
> Out of curiosity, what is your rough guess as to how many of these 22
> people committed any code in the last... year, let's say.
>
> > but levels of activity vary
> > widely and I would say that the type of talented people it takes to
> drive a
> > project forward (and I don't include myself in that group) no longer
> have an
> > interest in doing so on the Action 1 side - for various reasons. People
> such
> > as Craig put their effort into developing the JSF standard and see that
> as
> > the future for web development and that is where they now concentrate
> their
> > effort. Don was doing alot of work inovating with Struts Ti
>
> Well, I was not aware of this. However, you mean that Struts TI was a
> complete rewrite of the framework? I mean, was there a tacit assumption
> there that Struts 1.x could not be evolved forward and required a
> complete rewrite?
>
> > and had the
> > offer to merge not come along from WebWork - we would probably be seeing
> the
> > fruits of his efforts as Action2 and not even discussing "stagnation" at
> > this point. Ted was AWOL doing C# for a while (hes been "back" for a
> while
> > which is good :-), Martin seems focused on javascript etc. etc. So I
> guess
> > this leads to the next question "Well why didn't we attract new talented
> > people into the project that would drive Struts forward?" This I don't
> > know - seems that lots of people decided to go invent their own web
> > framework (YAWF) rather than get involved with Struts. Some of that is
> > certainly their own egos being the "founder of a framework" and some of
> it I
> > believe is the compatibility issue - its far easier to write a brand new
> > shiny web framework when not hampered by backwards compatibility.
> Whether we
> > as a community "put them off" I have no knowledge - but I've never seem
> that
> > proferred anywhere as a reason. It was always something like "Struts
> sucks
> > because of x, y and z and my brand new shiny framework does it better".
> > Course its far easier to invent a new framework by looking at existing
> ones
> > and seeing how you can improve them. Back to the "new people" question
> > though - its not my perspective that we have lots of people knocking at
> the
> > door trying to give us contributions and we're turning them away. I
> believe
> > its easy to become a Struts committer - you offer reasonable code, are
> > helpful in the community (e.g. answering questions on the user list),
> been
> > around a while and don't start flame wars or attack people personally -
> then
> > you get asked. Theres probably 2/3 people who probably think they should
> > have been asked, but haven't - they may or may no have a point - but
> besides
> > them I don't see it as a case of Struts excluding people and I don't
> have an
> > explanation for why there are not hoards of people wanting to join.
>
> Well, first of all, on the question of people going off and doing their
> own framework, you have to basically figure that some of these people
> just didn't think that they could apply their ideas in this setting. If
> somebody with a fire in their belly and some innovative ideas had showed
> up here and wanted to work on that, would they have been able to do so?
>
> After all, the fact remains that everybody knows that any work they do
> under the ASF umbrella will get much more attention and usage than it
> would otherwise. This is the main (probably the only) reason that the
> Webwork people have come here. So, a priori, your saying that you aren't
> attracting collaborators is really quite odd, isn't it?
>
> The thing is, Niall, that pretty much all the times you get a new
> collaborator, that person was first a user. Typically that someone is a
> "power user", and is pushing the limits of what the tool can do, and
> starts donating code to make the tool more powerful, and next thing you
> know, the guy is a collaborator.
>
> Now, you've got a lot of users, so that this basic mechanism doesn't
> operate is rather odd.
>
> What I have noticed is that the communication with your user community
> is rather poor. Basically, for all of it, the bulk of your users seem
> completely clued out as to what is going on with the Webwork merger.
>
> For example, you get people flaming me because I am saying that Webwork
> is better than Struts. They say "stop bashing Struts". But I am saying
> exactly what the Struts developers are saying! They have accepted that
> Webwork is better than Struts! So am I supposed to be more catholic than
> the pope?
>
> Also these people assume that I must be a Webwork developer. Somebody
> wrote a spoof of me in which I was praising Webwork to the skies! I have
> nothing to do with Webwork. I have never even used it. When I say
> Webwork is better, I am simply echoing what the Struts PMC are already
> saying.
>
> So, I mean, some of this is just going on because people don't know
> what's going on. I see a real communications failure.
>
> If people really knew that the current Struts 1.x codebase is being
> abandoned, you would think that there would be a lot more threads on
> this list about migration issues. "I've got this Struts 1.x App and I
> just was having a look at Webwork, which is going to be Struts Action 2
> and have various questions about how my app can be migrated...." I don't
> see threads like that, which means to me that you have not communicated
> to your rank and file users what is really going on here.
>
> Now, if there really is a problem in terms of user<->developer
> communication here, it would explain why the process whereby certain
> power users become collaborators is not happening as often as it should.
> And this would be a factor in the stagnation.
>
> Certainly, given the size of the user community, even if 1 in 100 people
> eventually became committers via that process, you would have a lot of
> active committers.
>
> That a community like webwork with far fewer users nonetheless has a
> more active, real developer team, is really something to look at.
>
> Certainly, in earlier discussions, most people just seemed to think that
> it was really hard to become a commmitters. So if that is a
> misconception, it is a widely held one. There's something odd going on
> here.
>
> >
> > Another answer to the question is "it hasn't stagnated -
>
>
> Stop, Niall, stop. That's not an answer. :-) Let's not go around
> completely in circles.
>
> > we've moved on to
> > Shale" and that is the future for existing Struts users.
>
> Well, if that is the case, you haven't communicated it to your users.
>
> I grant that if you are going to communicate something to your users,
> you should probably have a consistent message. The Action/Shale
> cohabitation seems to almost preclude having a consistent message.
>
> Anyway, JSF/Shale is just something completely different
> paradigmatically and the idea of that as "Struts 2" is really quite odd.
>
> > Clearly there are
> > quite a few people that will disagree with this - but also alot that
> will
> > say "great I buy JSF as the future and I'm glad the Struts project has
> an
> > offering that supports this".
>
> Well, unless you are offering migration tools or a compatibility layer
> or something, how does it benefit your users that Shale is under the
> "Struts umbrella" any more than if it was a separate project? I mean,
> it's a paradigmatic shift that you have to get head around either way
> and existing apps would need to be refactored.
>
> >
> > At the end of the day though this does seem academic, - since we now
> have two
> > offering for whatever camp you fall into (component orientated or action
> > orientated) and from my point of view the really good thing about the
> > WebWork merger is not only the great software were getting - but also
> the
> > talented new blood thats coming into the project.
>
> Well, if you accept that the Webwork people just ran the better project,
> you guys failed to keep Struts 1.x going at least in terms of innovation
> and development, then by that logic, the current Struts PMC should just
> step down probably and let the Webwork people run the show.
>
> If the same PMC that presided over technical stagnation before is going
> to remain the managers of the project, then I think it isn't an academic
> question. You have to examine the mistakes you made before.
>
>
> >
> > So I've given my answer to the question - now can we let this list get
> back
> > to helping and answering user questions - which is its main purpose?
>
> Niall, I don't know what you're talking about here. I see no sign that
> the list stopped helping people and answering their questions due to the
> presence of this thread.
>
> You were giving some signs that you now were willing to talk about this.
> You've had a certain say about this now. You've stepped forward and said
> the topic is not taboo. Well, now you're saying, let's not talk about it
> any more, i.e. I broke the taboo temporarily to get this guy off my
> back, but nudge nudge, wink, wink, the topic really is taboo.
>
> Okay, maybe that wasn't your intent, but if not, and the topic isn't
> taboo, how do you know other people don't have opinions to express now?
>
> Again, the idea that this is an either-or proposition and the list has
> to choose between talking about this and helping people by answering
> technical questions is actually absurd, isn't it?
>
> Jonathan Revusky
> --
> lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/
>
> >
> > Niall
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
>
>
--
Thanks & Regards
Srinivas
732-648-9421(Cell)
Re: Why did Struts development stagnate?
Posted by Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es>.
Niall Pemberton wrote:
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jonathan Revusky" <re...@wanadoo.es>
> Sent: Saturday, March 25, 2006 11:27 PM
>
>
>>It still seems broadly on-topic to me. It's certainly a legitimate,
>>well-formulated question.
>>
>>Seriously, the only other possibility I see is struts-dev. If it's
>>off-topic on both struts-user and struts-dev, then the question really
>>is (as I am starting to suppose) basically taboo.
>
>
>
> The question isn't taboo - I posed the same kind of thing (and offered one
> perspective) in an earlier thread:
>
> http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.jakarta.struts.user/122903
>
> However I don't think what I said in that thread was the whole story -
> clearly frameworks such as WebWork succeeded and I assume they were a
> volunteer effort as well.
Yes, the bulk of your explanation there seemed to be that Struts was an
all-volunteer effort and so on.
This could not possibly be why it fell behind Webwork.
>
> We currently have 22 committers on Struts -
Out of curiosity, what is your rough guess as to how many of these 22
people committed any code in the last... year, let's say.
> but levels of activity vary
> widely and I would say that the type of talented people it takes to drive a
> project forward (and I don't include myself in that group) no longer have an
> interest in doing so on the Action 1 side - for various reasons. People such
> as Craig put their effort into developing the JSF standard and see that as
> the future for web development and that is where they now concentrate their
> effort. Don was doing alot of work inovating with Struts Ti
Well, I was not aware of this. However, you mean that Struts TI was a
complete rewrite of the framework? I mean, was there a tacit assumption
there that Struts 1.x could not be evolved forward and required a
complete rewrite?
> and had the
> offer to merge not come along from WebWork - we would probably be seeing the
> fruits of his efforts as Action2 and not even discussing "stagnation" at
> this point. Ted was AWOL doing C# for a while (hes been "back" for a while
> which is good :-), Martin seems focused on javascript etc. etc. So I guess
> this leads to the next question "Well why didn't we attract new talented
> people into the project that would drive Struts forward?" This I don't
> know - seems that lots of people decided to go invent their own web
> framework (YAWF) rather than get involved with Struts. Some of that is
> certainly their own egos being the "founder of a framework" and some of it I
> believe is the compatibility issue - its far easier to write a brand new
> shiny web framework when not hampered by backwards compatibility. Whether we
> as a community "put them off" I have no knowledge - but I've never seem that
> proferred anywhere as a reason. It was always something like "Struts sucks
> because of x, y and z and my brand new shiny framework does it better".
> Course its far easier to invent a new framework by looking at existing ones
> and seeing how you can improve them. Back to the "new people" question
> though - its not my perspective that we have lots of people knocking at the
> door trying to give us contributions and we're turning them away. I believe
> its easy to become a Struts committer - you offer reasonable code, are
> helpful in the community (e.g. answering questions on the user list), been
> around a while and don't start flame wars or attack people personally - then
> you get asked. Theres probably 2/3 people who probably think they should
> have been asked, but haven't - they may or may no have a point - but besides
> them I don't see it as a case of Struts excluding people and I don't have an
> explanation for why there are not hoards of people wanting to join.
Well, first of all, on the question of people going off and doing their
own framework, you have to basically figure that some of these people
just didn't think that they could apply their ideas in this setting. If
somebody with a fire in their belly and some innovative ideas had showed
up here and wanted to work on that, would they have been able to do so?
After all, the fact remains that everybody knows that any work they do
under the ASF umbrella will get much more attention and usage than it
would otherwise. This is the main (probably the only) reason that the
Webwork people have come here. So, a priori, your saying that you aren't
attracting collaborators is really quite odd, isn't it?
The thing is, Niall, that pretty much all the times you get a new
collaborator, that person was first a user. Typically that someone is a
"power user", and is pushing the limits of what the tool can do, and
starts donating code to make the tool more powerful, and next thing you
know, the guy is a collaborator.
Now, you've got a lot of users, so that this basic mechanism doesn't
operate is rather odd.
What I have noticed is that the communication with your user community
is rather poor. Basically, for all of it, the bulk of your users seem
completely clued out as to what is going on with the Webwork merger.
For example, you get people flaming me because I am saying that Webwork
is better than Struts. They say "stop bashing Struts". But I am saying
exactly what the Struts developers are saying! They have accepted that
Webwork is better than Struts! So am I supposed to be more catholic than
the pope?
Also these people assume that I must be a Webwork developer. Somebody
wrote a spoof of me in which I was praising Webwork to the skies! I have
nothing to do with Webwork. I have never even used it. When I say
Webwork is better, I am simply echoing what the Struts PMC are already
saying.
So, I mean, some of this is just going on because people don't know
what's going on. I see a real communications failure.
If people really knew that the current Struts 1.x codebase is being
abandoned, you would think that there would be a lot more threads on
this list about migration issues. "I've got this Struts 1.x App and I
just was having a look at Webwork, which is going to be Struts Action 2
and have various questions about how my app can be migrated...." I don't
see threads like that, which means to me that you have not communicated
to your rank and file users what is really going on here.
Now, if there really is a problem in terms of user<->developer
communication here, it would explain why the process whereby certain
power users become collaborators is not happening as often as it should.
And this would be a factor in the stagnation.
Certainly, given the size of the user community, even if 1 in 100 people
eventually became committers via that process, you would have a lot of
active committers.
That a community like webwork with far fewer users nonetheless has a
more active, real developer team, is really something to look at.
Certainly, in earlier discussions, most people just seemed to think that
it was really hard to become a commmitters. So if that is a
misconception, it is a widely held one. There's something odd going on here.
>
> Another answer to the question is "it hasn't stagnated -
Stop, Niall, stop. That's not an answer. :-) Let's not go around
completely in circles.
> we've moved on to
> Shale" and that is the future for existing Struts users.
Well, if that is the case, you haven't communicated it to your users.
I grant that if you are going to communicate something to your users,
you should probably have a consistent message. The Action/Shale
cohabitation seems to almost preclude having a consistent message.
Anyway, JSF/Shale is just something completely different
paradigmatically and the idea of that as "Struts 2" is really quite odd.
> Clearly there are
> quite a few people that will disagree with this - but also alot that will
> say "great I buy JSF as the future and I'm glad the Struts project has an
> offering that supports this".
Well, unless you are offering migration tools or a compatibility layer
or something, how does it benefit your users that Shale is under the
"Struts umbrella" any more than if it was a separate project? I mean,
it's a paradigmatic shift that you have to get head around either way
and existing apps would need to be refactored.
>
> At the end of the day though this does seem academic, - since we now have two
> offering for whatever camp you fall into (component orientated or action
> orientated) and from my point of view the really good thing about the
> WebWork merger is not only the great software were getting - but also the
> talented new blood thats coming into the project.
Well, if you accept that the Webwork people just ran the better project,
you guys failed to keep Struts 1.x going at least in terms of innovation
and development, then by that logic, the current Struts PMC should just
step down probably and let the Webwork people run the show.
If the same PMC that presided over technical stagnation before is going
to remain the managers of the project, then I think it isn't an academic
question. You have to examine the mistakes you made before.
>
> So I've given my answer to the question - now can we let this list get back
> to helping and answering user questions - which is its main purpose?
Niall, I don't know what you're talking about here. I see no sign that
the list stopped helping people and answering their questions due to the
presence of this thread.
You were giving some signs that you now were willing to talk about this.
You've had a certain say about this now. You've stepped forward and said
the topic is not taboo. Well, now you're saying, let's not talk about it
any more, i.e. I broke the taboo temporarily to get this guy off my
back, but nudge nudge, wink, wink, the topic really is taboo.
Okay, maybe that wasn't your intent, but if not, and the topic isn't
taboo, how do you know other people don't have opinions to express now?
Again, the idea that this is an either-or proposition and the list has
to choose between talking about this and helping people by answering
technical questions is actually absurd, isn't it?
Jonathan Revusky
--
lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/
>
> Niall
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Re: Why did Struts development stagnate?
Posted by Niall Pemberton <ni...@blueyonder.co.uk>.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jonathan Revusky" <re...@wanadoo.es>
Sent: Saturday, March 25, 2006 11:27 PM
> It still seems broadly on-topic to me. It's certainly a legitimate,
> well-formulated question.
>
> Seriously, the only other possibility I see is struts-dev. If it's
> off-topic on both struts-user and struts-dev, then the question really
> is (as I am starting to suppose) basically taboo.
The question isn't taboo - I posed the same kind of thing (and offered one
perspective) in an earlier thread:
http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.jakarta.struts.user/122903
However I don't think what I said in that thread was the whole story -
clearly frameworks such as WebWork succeeded and I assume they were a
volunteer effort as well.
We currently have 22 committers on Struts - but levels of activity vary
widely and I would say that the type of talented people it takes to drive a
project forward (and I don't include myself in that group) no longer have an
interest in doing so on the Action 1 side - for various reasons. People such
as Craig put their effort into developing the JSF standard and see that as
the future for web development and that is where they now concentrate their
effort. Don was doing alot of work inovating with Struts Ti and had the
offer to merge not come along from WebWork - we would probably be seeing the
fruits of his efforts as Action2 and not even discussing "stagnation" at
this point. Ted was AWOL doing C# for a while (hes been "back" for a while
which is good :-), Martin seems focused on javascript etc. etc. So I guess
this leads to the next question "Well why didn't we attract new talented
people into the project that would drive Struts forward?" This I don't
know - seems that lots of people decided to go invent their own web
framework (YAWF) rather than get involved with Struts. Some of that is
certainly their own egos being the "founder of a framework" and some of it I
believe is the compatibility issue - its far easier to write a brand new
shiny web framework when not hampered by backwards compatibility. Whether we
as a community "put them off" I have no knowledge - but I've never seem that
proferred anywhere as a reason. It was always something like "Struts sucks
because of x, y and z and my brand new shiny framework does it better".
Course its far easier to invent a new framework by looking at existing ones
and seeing how you can improve them. Back to the "new people" question
though - its not my perspective that we have lots of people knocking at the
door trying to give us contributions and we're turning them away. I believe
its easy to become a Struts committer - you offer reasonable code, are
helpful in the community (e.g. answering questions on the user list), been
around a while and don't start flame wars or attack people personally - then
you get asked. Theres probably 2/3 people who probably think they should
have been asked, but haven't - they may or may no have a point - but besides
them I don't see it as a case of Struts excluding people and I don't have an
explanation for why there are not hoards of people wanting to join.
Another answer to the question is "it hasn't stagnated - we've moved on to
Shale" and that is the future for existing Struts users. Clearly there are
quite a few people that will disagree with this - but also alot that will
say "great I buy JSF as the future and I'm glad the Struts project has an
offering that supports this".
At the end of the day though this does seem academic - since we now have two
offering for whatever camp you fall into (component orientated or action
orientated) and from my point of view the really good thing about the
WebWork merger is not only the great software were getting - but also the
talented new blood thats coming into the project.
So I've given my answer to the question - now can we let this list get back
to helping and answering user questions - which is its main purpose?
Niall
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Re: Why did Struts development stagnate?
Posted by Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es>.
Craig McClanahan wrote:
> On 3/25/06, Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es> wrote:
>
>>The question is, at the very least, broadly on-topic.
>
>
>
> This interpretation is wildly out of sync with the formal description of
> this mailing list's purpose[1], quoted below:
>
> Subscribe to this list to communicate with other developers
> that are using Struts for their own applications, including
> questions about the installation of Struts, and the usage
> of particular Struts features.
>
>
So where should such a question be asked, Craig? On rec.automotive? On
alt.politics.libertarian?
It still seems broadly on-topic to me. It's certainly a legitimate,
well-formulated question.
Seriously, the only other possibility I see is struts-dev. If it's
off-topic on both struts-user and struts-dev, then the question really
is (as I am starting to suppose) basically taboo.
So, cutting to the chase, if I pose the same question on struts-dev, you
and the others would answer it?
Jonathan Revusky
--
lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/
> Jonathan Revusky
>
>
> Craig
>
> [1] http://struts.apache.org/mail.html
>
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Re: Why did Struts development stagnate?
Posted by Craig McClanahan <cr...@apache.org>.
On 3/25/06, Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es> wrote:
>
> The question is, at the very least, broadly on-topic.
This interpretation is wildly out of sync with the formal description of
this mailing list's purpose[1], quoted below:
Subscribe to this list to communicate with other developers
that are using Struts for their own applications, including
questions about the installation of Struts, and the usage
of particular Struts features.
Jonathan Revusky
Craig
[1] http://struts.apache.org/mail.html
Re: Why did Struts development stagnate?
Posted by Paul Benedict <pa...@yahoo.com>.
I believe the user group is for user questions about Struts;
if I had to pick a place for questions like these, they really
belong on the dev list so the casual user isn't loaded down
with internal disputations and disagreements.
--- Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es> wrote:
> Craig McClanahan wrote:
> > On 3/25/06, Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es> wrote:
> >
> >>Mark Lowe wrote:
> >>
> >>>Look.. You've been invited to post your thoughts about the way that
> >>>apache do stuff, to a more appropiate audience than a bunch of
> >>>half-wit struts users like me..
> >>
> >>Mark, I was involved in a conversation with various people. It so
> >>happens that the conversation developed here.
> >
> >
> >
> > No matter where the conversation developed, it has gone in directions that
> > are off topic on this list.
>
> Well, I differ with you on this. Before Mark's interruption, I posed
> basically the following question:
>
> If there is no basic problem with your project management practices (as
> you seem to claim) what were the reasons that Struts development
> stagnated, with Struts becoming increasingly uncompetitive with other
> things in its space, such as Webwork?
>
> The question is, at the very least, broadly on-topic. It is of interest
> to the Struts community, because seriously considering this question
> would allow you to avoid the same mistakes in the future. It would also
> be useful even to people like me who are managing other open source
> projects. It is always useful to see what other people have done right
> (and wrong) in terms of managing projects.
>
> This is a very complex issue that is worthy of having an open-minded
> exchange of views about. Now, nobody is obliged to partake in this
> exchange of views, I grant that. But it is utterly beyond me why
> somebody who doesn't want to participate in such a discussion should be
> trying to prevent other people from doing so.
>
> Regards,
>
> Jonathan Revusky
> --
> lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/
> FreeMarker group blog, http://freemarker.blogspot.com/
>
>
>
> > Please feel free to continue the conversation,
> > but do it somewhere else.
> >
> > Craig
> >
>
>
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>
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Why did Struts development stagnate?
Posted by Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es>.
Craig McClanahan wrote:
> On 3/25/06, Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es> wrote:
>
>>Mark Lowe wrote:
>>
>>>Look.. You've been invited to post your thoughts about the way that
>>>apache do stuff, to a more appropiate audience than a bunch of
>>>half-wit struts users like me..
>>
>>Mark, I was involved in a conversation with various people. It so
>>happens that the conversation developed here.
>
>
>
> No matter where the conversation developed, it has gone in directions that
> are off topic on this list.
Well, I differ with you on this. Before Mark's interruption, I posed
basically the following question:
If there is no basic problem with your project management practices (as
you seem to claim) what were the reasons that Struts development
stagnated, with Struts becoming increasingly uncompetitive with other
things in its space, such as Webwork?
The question is, at the very least, broadly on-topic. It is of interest
to the Struts community, because seriously considering this question
would allow you to avoid the same mistakes in the future. It would also
be useful even to people like me who are managing other open source
projects. It is always useful to see what other people have done right
(and wrong) in terms of managing projects.
This is a very complex issue that is worthy of having an open-minded
exchange of views about. Now, nobody is obliged to partake in this
exchange of views, I grant that. But it is utterly beyond me why
somebody who doesn't want to participate in such a discussion should be
trying to prevent other people from doing so.
Regards,
Jonathan Revusky
--
lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/
FreeMarker group blog, http://freemarker.blogspot.com/
> Please feel free to continue the conversation,
> but do it somewhere else.
>
> Craig
>
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Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Asad Habib <ah...@engin.umich.edu>.
Jack, I think folks on this list have heard enough complaining and
whinning by you and others. You claim that your right of free speech is
being violated, but all I have heard from you is insults. This is a list
for professional developers, not gangsters!
Also, how are contributing by claiming that Struts has not lived up to
your expectations? If anything, you should be contributing to make it
better. All said and done, I have now used Struts for over a year and I
must say that the creators did a great job! It's a very powerful framework
and the folks you labored ardously to design and implement it deserve,
at the very least, a thank you from all of us.
- Asad
On Sat, 25 Mar 2006, Dakota Jack wrote:
> I don't know about you, but my email comes organized so that I can easily
> work around anything that happens on a list. I would think that this is
> fairly normal and something we could expect? I can remember when the dev
> list would say "Heh, take that stuff to the user list". But, if things go
> to the dev list I am "down with that". I really think that this is an
> important topic. A lot of talent is not going to get hooked into Struts, as
> it has not in the past, if we continue that way things are. I am
> interested, by the way, in everyone's input.
>
> On 3/25/06, Paul Benedict <pa...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>> Dakota,
>>
>> Thanks for wanting my input :-) I am not looking for censorship,
>> but I am looking for productive discussions and sometimes that means
>> pruning one discussion for the sake of another. I tend to agree that
>> this thread should move onto the dev board; it seems to be the appropraite
>> place, in my eyes, for discussion on project management, patches, and
>> the future vision of Struts. I don't think it is a difficult thing
>> to transpose these discussions there, so, if probably will hold off on
>> this
>> thread until it moves over. I just don't want to penalize true user
>> questions here, since some people need real development help, and I think
>> having a ton of philosophical inbound mail detracts from it.
>>
>> Paul
>>
>> --- Dakota Jack <da...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Well, I for one would be interested in what you have to say, Paul. I
>> think
>>> it is too bad that you feel you cannot answer on this list. That is as
>>> close to a tragedy as it gets. I cannot believe how censorship works on
>>> this list. What a sad thing. I want to get peoples' ideas on this. I
>>> cannot get them if this list is afraid to talk because Craig comes on
>> and
>>> says "shut up". Nothing could be more relevant to this community than
>> why
>>> it failed. To suggest otherwise is either disingenuous or facist or
>> both.
>>>
>>> On 3/25/06, Paul Benedict <pa...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Johnathan,
>>>>
>>>> I am going to eat my own advice. I am going to respond
>>>> to this privately :) Expect an email soon.
>>>>
>>>> Paul
>>>>
>>>> --- Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Paul Benedict wrote:
>>>>>> +1 with Frank and Craig. Unless you need to have your viewpoint
>>>>>> continuously heard in public, some of the latter postings can be
>>>>>> shared privately. Most of it was good, and I think it generated
>>>>>> much good; thanks for sharing.
>>>>>
>>>>> Well, my problem on this right now is that I just don't have
>> closure.
>>>>>
>>>>> I asked the basic question of why Struts development stagnated and
>>>>> people who really should have by now really grappled with this
>> question
>>>>> and considered it, simply disengaged, and some even started with the
>>>>> insults and such.
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't really like putting you on the spot, Paul (with other
>> people, I
>>>>> don't mind so much but you seem like a basically okay guy) but I'm
>> just
>>>>> going to ask you the same question I asked a whole bunch of other
>> people
>>>>> and never got any answer from.
>>>>>
>>>>> What, in your opinion, are the reasons that Struts development
>>>> stagnated?
>>>>>
>>>>> I know I'm being a hard-nosed SOB but I also know that the question
>> is
>>>>> well-formulated, valid, and broadly on-topic for a Struts list.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm sure you have an opinion on this subject, Paul. If you won't
>> share
>>>>> your views, I'd be curious as to why. You see, I'm developing the
>>>>> impression that the above question is basically taboo somehow.
>>>>>
>>>>> Once you pose this question, people just start coming out of the
>>>>> woodwork screaming at you to shut up and stuff. So, at this point, I
>>>>> pretty much have developed a morbid fascination and am inclined to
>>>>> simply ask the question to everybody and see how they react. :-) So
>> now
>>>>> I am asking you... :-)
>>>>>
>>>>> Jonathan Revusky
>>>>> --
>>>>> lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --- "Frank W. Zammetti" <fz...@omnytex.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Craig McClanahan wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> No matter where the conversation developed, it has gone in
>> directions
>>>> that
>>>>>>>> are off topic on this list. Please feel free to continue the
>>>> conversation,
>>>>>>>> but do it somewhere else.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> (About to break my own "I'm done posting in this thread" rule)...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Even I, as someone who was knee-deep in this thread for a while,
>> agree
>>>>>>> with Craig. The problem is it was a discussion for a while, but
>> has
>>>>>>> become people just talking over one another now.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm all for people expressing their viewpoints, no matter how
>>>> unpopular,
>>>>>>> but at some point it becomes obvious that no one is listening to
>> one
>>>>>>> another, and then it's an exercise in futility.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> No one can stop anyone else from posting, not without locking
>> someone
>>>>>>> out from the list anyway, which I hope never happens to anyone,
>> but at
>>>>>>> some point everyone has to come to the realization that the
>>>> conversation
>>>>>>> has past the point of being useful in any real way. If no one's
>>>> opinion
>>>>>>> was changed 30 posts ago, chances are it's not going to happen
>> now.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Besides, if the points being raised are valid at all, this thread
>>>> won't
>>>>>>> be the last of its kind... Someone will at some point start
>> another
>>>> and
>>>>>>> it'll all come out again, so why not hold back some of the talking
>>>>>>> points for next time? ;)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Craig
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Frank
>>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
>>>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> __________________________________________________
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>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> "You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its
>> back."
>>> ~Dakota Jack~
>>>
>>
>>
>> __________________________________________________
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>>
>
>
> --
> "You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back."
> ~Dakota Jack~
>
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Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Dakota Jack <da...@gmail.com>.
I don't know about you, but my email comes organized so that I can easily
work around anything that happens on a list. I would think that this is
fairly normal and something we could expect? I can remember when the dev
list would say "Heh, take that stuff to the user list". But, if things go
to the dev list I am "down with that". I really think that this is an
important topic. A lot of talent is not going to get hooked into Struts, as
it has not in the past, if we continue that way things are. I am
interested, by the way, in everyone's input.
On 3/25/06, Paul Benedict <pa...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Dakota,
>
> Thanks for wanting my input :-) I am not looking for censorship,
> but I am looking for productive discussions and sometimes that means
> pruning one discussion for the sake of another. I tend to agree that
> this thread should move onto the dev board; it seems to be the appropraite
> place, in my eyes, for discussion on project management, patches, and
> the future vision of Struts. I don't think it is a difficult thing
> to transpose these discussions there, so, if probably will hold off on
> this
> thread until it moves over. I just don't want to penalize true user
> questions here, since some people need real development help, and I think
> having a ton of philosophical inbound mail detracts from it.
>
> Paul
>
> --- Dakota Jack <da...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Well, I for one would be interested in what you have to say, Paul. I
> think
> > it is too bad that you feel you cannot answer on this list. That is as
> > close to a tragedy as it gets. I cannot believe how censorship works on
> > this list. What a sad thing. I want to get peoples' ideas on this. I
> > cannot get them if this list is afraid to talk because Craig comes on
> and
> > says "shut up". Nothing could be more relevant to this community than
> why
> > it failed. To suggest otherwise is either disingenuous or facist or
> both.
> >
> > On 3/25/06, Paul Benedict <pa...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > Johnathan,
> > >
> > > I am going to eat my own advice. I am going to respond
> > > to this privately :) Expect an email soon.
> > >
> > > Paul
> > >
> > > --- Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Paul Benedict wrote:
> > > > > +1 with Frank and Craig. Unless you need to have your viewpoint
> > > > > continuously heard in public, some of the latter postings can be
> > > > > shared privately. Most of it was good, and I think it generated
> > > > > much good; thanks for sharing.
> > > >
> > > > Well, my problem on this right now is that I just don't have
> closure.
> > > >
> > > > I asked the basic question of why Struts development stagnated and
> > > > people who really should have by now really grappled with this
> question
> > > > and considered it, simply disengaged, and some even started with the
> > > > insults and such.
> > > >
> > > > I don't really like putting you on the spot, Paul (with other
> people, I
> > > > don't mind so much but you seem like a basically okay guy) but I'm
> just
> > > > going to ask you the same question I asked a whole bunch of other
> people
> > > > and never got any answer from.
> > > >
> > > > What, in your opinion, are the reasons that Struts development
> > > stagnated?
> > > >
> > > > I know I'm being a hard-nosed SOB but I also know that the question
> is
> > > > well-formulated, valid, and broadly on-topic for a Struts list.
> > > >
> > > > I'm sure you have an opinion on this subject, Paul. If you won't
> share
> > > > your views, I'd be curious as to why. You see, I'm developing the
> > > > impression that the above question is basically taboo somehow.
> > > >
> > > > Once you pose this question, people just start coming out of the
> > > > woodwork screaming at you to shut up and stuff. So, at this point, I
> > > > pretty much have developed a morbid fascination and am inclined to
> > > > simply ask the question to everybody and see how they react. :-) So
> now
> > > > I am asking you... :-)
> > > >
> > > > Jonathan Revusky
> > > > --
> > > > lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --- "Frank W. Zammetti" <fz...@omnytex.com> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >>Craig McClanahan wrote:
> > > > >>
> > > > >>>No matter where the conversation developed, it has gone in
> directions
> > > that
> > > > >>>are off topic on this list. Please feel free to continue the
> > > conversation,
> > > > >>>but do it somewhere else.
> > > > >>
> > > > >>(About to break my own "I'm done posting in this thread" rule)...
> > > > >>
> > > > >>Even I, as someone who was knee-deep in this thread for a while,
> agree
> > > > >>with Craig. The problem is it was a discussion for a while, but
> has
> > > > >>become people just talking over one another now.
> > > > >>
> > > > >>I'm all for people expressing their viewpoints, no matter how
> > > unpopular,
> > > > >>but at some point it becomes obvious that no one is listening to
> one
> > > > >>another, and then it's an exercise in futility.
> > > > >>
> > > > >>No one can stop anyone else from posting, not without locking
> someone
> > > > >>out from the list anyway, which I hope never happens to anyone,
> but at
> > > > >>some point everyone has to come to the realization that the
> > > conversation
> > > > >>has past the point of being useful in any real way. If no one's
> > > opinion
> > > > >>was changed 30 posts ago, chances are it's not going to happen
> now.
> > > > >>
> > > > >>Besides, if the points being raised are valid at all, this thread
> > > won't
> > > > >>be the last of its kind... Someone will at some point start
> another
> > > and
> > > > >>it'll all come out again, so why not hold back some of the talking
> > > > >>points for next time? ;)
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>>Craig
> > > > >>
> > > > >>Frank
> > > > >>
> > > >
> >>---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > >>To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> > > > >>For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > __________________________________________________
> > > > > Do You Yahoo!?
> > > > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> > > > > http://mail.yahoo.com
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> > > > For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > __________________________________________________
> > > Do You Yahoo!?
> > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> > > http://mail.yahoo.com
> > >
> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> > > For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > "You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its
> back."
> > ~Dakota Jack~
> >
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
>
>
--
"You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back."
~Dakota Jack~
Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Paul Benedict <pa...@yahoo.com>.
Dakota,
Thanks for wanting my input :-) I am not looking for censorship,
but I am looking for productive discussions and sometimes that means
pruning one discussion for the sake of another. I tend to agree that
this thread should move onto the dev board; it seems to be the appropraite
place, in my eyes, for discussion on project management, patches, and
the future vision of Struts. I don't think it is a difficult thing
to transpose these discussions there, so, if probably will hold off on this
thread until it moves over. I just don't want to penalize true user
questions here, since some people need real development help, and I think
having a ton of philosophical inbound mail detracts from it.
Paul
--- Dakota Jack <da...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Well, I for one would be interested in what you have to say, Paul. I think
> it is too bad that you feel you cannot answer on this list. That is as
> close to a tragedy as it gets. I cannot believe how censorship works on
> this list. What a sad thing. I want to get peoples' ideas on this. I
> cannot get them if this list is afraid to talk because Craig comes on and
> says "shut up". Nothing could be more relevant to this community than why
> it failed. To suggest otherwise is either disingenuous or facist or both.
>
> On 3/25/06, Paul Benedict <pa...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> > Johnathan,
> >
> > I am going to eat my own advice. I am going to respond
> > to this privately :) Expect an email soon.
> >
> > Paul
> >
> > --- Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es> wrote:
> >
> > > Paul Benedict wrote:
> > > > +1 with Frank and Craig. Unless you need to have your viewpoint
> > > > continuously heard in public, some of the latter postings can be
> > > > shared privately. Most of it was good, and I think it generated
> > > > much good; thanks for sharing.
> > >
> > > Well, my problem on this right now is that I just don't have closure.
> > >
> > > I asked the basic question of why Struts development stagnated and
> > > people who really should have by now really grappled with this question
> > > and considered it, simply disengaged, and some even started with the
> > > insults and such.
> > >
> > > I don't really like putting you on the spot, Paul (with other people, I
> > > don't mind so much but you seem like a basically okay guy) but I'm just
> > > going to ask you the same question I asked a whole bunch of other people
> > > and never got any answer from.
> > >
> > > What, in your opinion, are the reasons that Struts development
> > stagnated?
> > >
> > > I know I'm being a hard-nosed SOB but I also know that the question is
> > > well-formulated, valid, and broadly on-topic for a Struts list.
> > >
> > > I'm sure you have an opinion on this subject, Paul. If you won't share
> > > your views, I'd be curious as to why. You see, I'm developing the
> > > impression that the above question is basically taboo somehow.
> > >
> > > Once you pose this question, people just start coming out of the
> > > woodwork screaming at you to shut up and stuff. So, at this point, I
> > > pretty much have developed a morbid fascination and am inclined to
> > > simply ask the question to everybody and see how they react. :-) So now
> > > I am asking you... :-)
> > >
> > > Jonathan Revusky
> > > --
> > > lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > --- "Frank W. Zammetti" <fz...@omnytex.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >>Craig McClanahan wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >>>No matter where the conversation developed, it has gone in directions
> > that
> > > >>>are off topic on this list. Please feel free to continue the
> > conversation,
> > > >>>but do it somewhere else.
> > > >>
> > > >>(About to break my own "I'm done posting in this thread" rule)...
> > > >>
> > > >>Even I, as someone who was knee-deep in this thread for a while, agree
> > > >>with Craig. The problem is it was a discussion for a while, but has
> > > >>become people just talking over one another now.
> > > >>
> > > >>I'm all for people expressing their viewpoints, no matter how
> > unpopular,
> > > >>but at some point it becomes obvious that no one is listening to one
> > > >>another, and then it's an exercise in futility.
> > > >>
> > > >>No one can stop anyone else from posting, not without locking someone
> > > >>out from the list anyway, which I hope never happens to anyone, but at
> > > >>some point everyone has to come to the realization that the
> > conversation
> > > >>has past the point of being useful in any real way. If no one's
> > opinion
> > > >>was changed 30 posts ago, chances are it's not going to happen now.
> > > >>
> > > >>Besides, if the points being raised are valid at all, this thread
> > won't
> > > >>be the last of its kind... Someone will at some point start another
> > and
> > > >>it'll all come out again, so why not hold back some of the talking
> > > >>points for next time? ;)
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>>Craig
> > > >>
> > > >>Frank
> > > >>
> > > >>---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > >>To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> > > >>For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > __________________________________________________
> > > > Do You Yahoo!?
> > > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> > > > http://mail.yahoo.com
> > >
> > >
> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> > > For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> > http://mail.yahoo.com
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> "You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back."
> ~Dakota Jack~
>
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Dakota Jack <da...@gmail.com>.
Well, I for one would be interested in what you have to say, Paul. I think
it is too bad that you feel you cannot answer on this list. That is as
close to a tragedy as it gets. I cannot believe how censorship works on
this list. What a sad thing. I want to get peoples' ideas on this. I
cannot get them if this list is afraid to talk because Craig comes on and
says "shut up". Nothing could be more relevant to this community than why
it failed. To suggest otherwise is either disingenuous or facist or both.
On 3/25/06, Paul Benedict <pa...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Johnathan,
>
> I am going to eat my own advice. I am going to respond
> to this privately :) Expect an email soon.
>
> Paul
>
> --- Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es> wrote:
>
> > Paul Benedict wrote:
> > > +1 with Frank and Craig. Unless you need to have your viewpoint
> > > continuously heard in public, some of the latter postings can be
> > > shared privately. Most of it was good, and I think it generated
> > > much good; thanks for sharing.
> >
> > Well, my problem on this right now is that I just don't have closure.
> >
> > I asked the basic question of why Struts development stagnated and
> > people who really should have by now really grappled with this question
> > and considered it, simply disengaged, and some even started with the
> > insults and such.
> >
> > I don't really like putting you on the spot, Paul (with other people, I
> > don't mind so much but you seem like a basically okay guy) but I'm just
> > going to ask you the same question I asked a whole bunch of other people
> > and never got any answer from.
> >
> > What, in your opinion, are the reasons that Struts development
> stagnated?
> >
> > I know I'm being a hard-nosed SOB but I also know that the question is
> > well-formulated, valid, and broadly on-topic for a Struts list.
> >
> > I'm sure you have an opinion on this subject, Paul. If you won't share
> > your views, I'd be curious as to why. You see, I'm developing the
> > impression that the above question is basically taboo somehow.
> >
> > Once you pose this question, people just start coming out of the
> > woodwork screaming at you to shut up and stuff. So, at this point, I
> > pretty much have developed a morbid fascination and am inclined to
> > simply ask the question to everybody and see how they react. :-) So now
> > I am asking you... :-)
> >
> > Jonathan Revusky
> > --
> > lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> > > --- "Frank W. Zammetti" <fz...@omnytex.com> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >>Craig McClanahan wrote:
> > >>
> > >>>No matter where the conversation developed, it has gone in directions
> that
> > >>>are off topic on this list. Please feel free to continue the
> conversation,
> > >>>but do it somewhere else.
> > >>
> > >>(About to break my own "I'm done posting in this thread" rule)...
> > >>
> > >>Even I, as someone who was knee-deep in this thread for a while, agree
> > >>with Craig. The problem is it was a discussion for a while, but has
> > >>become people just talking over one another now.
> > >>
> > >>I'm all for people expressing their viewpoints, no matter how
> unpopular,
> > >>but at some point it becomes obvious that no one is listening to one
> > >>another, and then it's an exercise in futility.
> > >>
> > >>No one can stop anyone else from posting, not without locking someone
> > >>out from the list anyway, which I hope never happens to anyone, but at
> > >>some point everyone has to come to the realization that the
> conversation
> > >>has past the point of being useful in any real way. If no one's
> opinion
> > >>was changed 30 posts ago, chances are it's not going to happen now.
> > >>
> > >>Besides, if the points being raised are valid at all, this thread
> won't
> > >>be the last of its kind... Someone will at some point start another
> and
> > >>it'll all come out again, so why not hold back some of the talking
> > >>points for next time? ;)
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>>Craig
> > >>
> > >>Frank
> > >>
> > >>---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >>To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> > >>For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > __________________________________________________
> > > Do You Yahoo!?
> > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> > > http://mail.yahoo.com
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
> >
> >
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
>
>
--
"You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back."
~Dakota Jack~
Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Paul Benedict <pa...@yahoo.com>.
Johnathan,
I am going to eat my own advice. I am going to respond
to this privately :) Expect an email soon.
Paul
--- Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es> wrote:
> Paul Benedict wrote:
> > +1 with Frank and Craig. Unless you need to have your viewpoint
> > continuously heard in public, some of the latter postings can be
> > shared privately. Most of it was good, and I think it generated
> > much good; thanks for sharing.
>
> Well, my problem on this right now is that I just don't have closure.
>
> I asked the basic question of why Struts development stagnated and
> people who really should have by now really grappled with this question
> and considered it, simply disengaged, and some even started with the
> insults and such.
>
> I don't really like putting you on the spot, Paul (with other people, I
> don't mind so much but you seem like a basically okay guy) but I'm just
> going to ask you the same question I asked a whole bunch of other people
> and never got any answer from.
>
> What, in your opinion, are the reasons that Struts development stagnated?
>
> I know I'm being a hard-nosed SOB but I also know that the question is
> well-formulated, valid, and broadly on-topic for a Struts list.
>
> I'm sure you have an opinion on this subject, Paul. If you won't share
> your views, I'd be curious as to why. You see, I'm developing the
> impression that the above question is basically taboo somehow.
>
> Once you pose this question, people just start coming out of the
> woodwork screaming at you to shut up and stuff. So, at this point, I
> pretty much have developed a morbid fascination and am inclined to
> simply ask the question to everybody and see how they react. :-) So now
> I am asking you... :-)
>
> Jonathan Revusky
> --
> lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/
>
>
>
> >
> > --- "Frank W. Zammetti" <fz...@omnytex.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> >>Craig McClanahan wrote:
> >>
> >>>No matter where the conversation developed, it has gone in directions that
> >>>are off topic on this list. Please feel free to continue the conversation,
> >>>but do it somewhere else.
> >>
> >>(About to break my own "I'm done posting in this thread" rule)...
> >>
> >>Even I, as someone who was knee-deep in this thread for a while, agree
> >>with Craig. The problem is it was a discussion for a while, but has
> >>become people just talking over one another now.
> >>
> >>I'm all for people expressing their viewpoints, no matter how unpopular,
> >>but at some point it becomes obvious that no one is listening to one
> >>another, and then it's an exercise in futility.
> >>
> >>No one can stop anyone else from posting, not without locking someone
> >>out from the list anyway, which I hope never happens to anyone, but at
> >>some point everyone has to come to the realization that the conversation
> >>has past the point of being useful in any real way. If no one's opinion
> >>was changed 30 posts ago, chances are it's not going to happen now.
> >>
> >>Besides, if the points being raised are valid at all, this thread won't
> >>be the last of its kind... Someone will at some point start another and
> >>it'll all come out again, so why not hold back some of the talking
> >>points for next time? ;)
> >>
> >>
> >>>Craig
> >>
> >>Frank
> >>
> >>---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> >>For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> > http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
>
>
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------
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For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es>.
Paul Benedict wrote:
> +1 with Frank and Craig. Unless you need to have your viewpoint
> continuously heard in public, some of the latter postings can be
> shared privately. Most of it was good, and I think it generated
> much good; thanks for sharing.
Well, my problem on this right now is that I just don't have closure.
I asked the basic question of why Struts development stagnated and
people who really should have by now really grappled with this question
and considered it, simply disengaged, and some even started with the
insults and such.
I don't really like putting you on the spot, Paul (with other people, I
don't mind so much but you seem like a basically okay guy) but I'm just
going to ask you the same question I asked a whole bunch of other people
and never got any answer from.
What, in your opinion, are the reasons that Struts development stagnated?
I know I'm being a hard-nosed SOB but I also know that the question is
well-formulated, valid, and broadly on-topic for a Struts list.
I'm sure you have an opinion on this subject, Paul. If you won't share
your views, I'd be curious as to why. You see, I'm developing the
impression that the above question is basically taboo somehow.
Once you pose this question, people just start coming out of the
woodwork screaming at you to shut up and stuff. So, at this point, I
pretty much have developed a morbid fascination and am inclined to
simply ask the question to everybody and see how they react. :-) So now
I am asking you... :-)
Jonathan Revusky
--
lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/
>
> --- "Frank W. Zammetti" <fz...@omnytex.com> wrote:
>
>
>>Craig McClanahan wrote:
>>
>>>No matter where the conversation developed, it has gone in directions that
>>>are off topic on this list. Please feel free to continue the conversation,
>>>but do it somewhere else.
>>
>>(About to break my own "I'm done posting in this thread" rule)...
>>
>>Even I, as someone who was knee-deep in this thread for a while, agree
>>with Craig. The problem is it was a discussion for a while, but has
>>become people just talking over one another now.
>>
>>I'm all for people expressing their viewpoints, no matter how unpopular,
>>but at some point it becomes obvious that no one is listening to one
>>another, and then it's an exercise in futility.
>>
>>No one can stop anyone else from posting, not without locking someone
>>out from the list anyway, which I hope never happens to anyone, but at
>>some point everyone has to come to the realization that the conversation
>>has past the point of being useful in any real way. If no one's opinion
>>was changed 30 posts ago, chances are it's not going to happen now.
>>
>>Besides, if the points being raised are valid at all, this thread won't
>>be the last of its kind... Someone will at some point start another and
>>it'll all come out again, so why not hold back some of the talking
>>points for next time? ;)
>>
>>
>>>Craig
>>
>>Frank
>>
>>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
>>For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
>>
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Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Paul Benedict <pa...@yahoo.com>.
+1 with Frank and Craig. Unless you need to have your viewpoint
continuously heard in public, some of the latter postings can be
shared privately. Most of it was good, and I think it generated
much good; thanks for sharing.
--- "Frank W. Zammetti" <fz...@omnytex.com> wrote:
> Craig McClanahan wrote:
> > No matter where the conversation developed, it has gone in directions that
> > are off topic on this list. Please feel free to continue the conversation,
> > but do it somewhere else.
>
> (About to break my own "I'm done posting in this thread" rule)...
>
> Even I, as someone who was knee-deep in this thread for a while, agree
> with Craig. The problem is it was a discussion for a while, but has
> become people just talking over one another now.
>
> I'm all for people expressing their viewpoints, no matter how unpopular,
> but at some point it becomes obvious that no one is listening to one
> another, and then it's an exercise in futility.
>
> No one can stop anyone else from posting, not without locking someone
> out from the list anyway, which I hope never happens to anyone, but at
> some point everyone has to come to the realization that the conversation
> has past the point of being useful in any real way. If no one's opinion
> was changed 30 posts ago, chances are it's not going to happen now.
>
> Besides, if the points being raised are valid at all, this thread won't
> be the last of its kind... Someone will at some point start another and
> it'll all come out again, so why not hold back some of the talking
> points for next time? ;)
>
> > Craig
>
> Frank
>
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Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by "Frank W. Zammetti" <fz...@omnytex.com>.
Craig McClanahan wrote:
> No matter where the conversation developed, it has gone in directions that
> are off topic on this list. Please feel free to continue the conversation,
> but do it somewhere else.
(About to break my own "I'm done posting in this thread" rule)...
Even I, as someone who was knee-deep in this thread for a while, agree
with Craig. The problem is it was a discussion for a while, but has
become people just talking over one another now.
I'm all for people expressing their viewpoints, no matter how unpopular,
but at some point it becomes obvious that no one is listening to one
another, and then it's an exercise in futility.
No one can stop anyone else from posting, not without locking someone
out from the list anyway, which I hope never happens to anyone, but at
some point everyone has to come to the realization that the conversation
has past the point of being useful in any real way. If no one's opinion
was changed 30 posts ago, chances are it's not going to happen now.
Besides, if the points being raised are valid at all, this thread won't
be the last of its kind... Someone will at some point start another and
it'll all come out again, so why not hold back some of the talking
points for next time? ;)
> Craig
Frank
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Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Craig McClanahan <cr...@apache.org>.
On 3/25/06, Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es> wrote:
>
> Mark Lowe wrote:
> > Look.. You've been invited to post your thoughts about the way that
> > apache do stuff, to a more appropiate audience than a bunch of
> > half-wit struts users like me..
>
> Mark, I was involved in a conversation with various people. It so
> happens that the conversation developed here.
No matter where the conversation developed, it has gone in directions that
are off topic on this list. Please feel free to continue the conversation,
but do it somewhere else.
Craig
Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Mark Lowe <me...@gmail.com>.
On 3/25/06, Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es> wrote:
> Mark Lowe wrote:
> > Look.. You've been invited to post your thoughts about the way that
> > apache do stuff, to a more appropiate audience than a bunch of
> > half-wit struts users like me..
>
> Mark, I was involved in a conversation with various people. It so
> happens that the conversation developed here.
>
> What I'm wondering about all this is the following:
>
> Suppose you went to some meeting, let's say a Struts Users Group
> meeting. I'm talking about a non-virtual setting. At this meeting,
> various people get involved in a discussion, maybe even a passionate,
> heated discussion about something like this.
>
> Under what circumstances would you butt into a conversation other people
> were having and start loudly telling one or more of those people to shut
> up? I mean in a situation in which you were not even part of the
> discussion even.
>
> I would bet that you never would behave like this, because this would be
> outrageous, uncouth behavior. If you're not interested in what they're
> talking about, simply wander off and have some other interaction. The
> fact that these people are having whatever discussion does not cause you
> any particular inconvenience or problem. Similarly, nobody forces you to
> follow every conversation that is going on in this forum.
>
> Now, if you think the above behavior is unacceptable in the non-virtual
> meeting, why do you think it's acceptable here? You take it upon
> yourself to jump into a conversation in which you were not even
> participating and tell people to shut up.
>
> Please explain why you think this is acceptable.
>
> >
> > I was using "smear" more in the context of "to soil"
> >
> > You might have a point, you might not, you could be the next pope for
> > all i care.. Let the thread die.. What do you want? Everyone to say..
> > Yes "jonathon you're correct", "freemarker is the best because you're
> > involved and it employs a more open policy in respect to commit
> > privledges" .. What do you want people to say?
>
> As I said before, I posed a question. It was not a smarmy sarcastic
> question like that of James Mitchell asking me where my patch for the
> front web page was. I simply asked a straightforward question about why
> Struts development had stagnated if all the project management practices
> were so great.
>
> This is a completely fair and relevant question in the context of the
> discussion that developed. I asked the question because I truly was
> interested to know what their answer would be.
>
> I still don't know since nobody has answered the question. Again, why
> should I not ask this question? In what way is it a "smear" for me to
> ask this question?
>
> And again, I will be fascinated to know why you think your behavior in
> butting into a conversation in which you were not a participant is at
> all acceptable. Maybe you should step back and think about this a bit.
>
> Regards,
>
> Jonathan Revusky
> --
> lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/
>
>
> >
> > Okay,.. You're my hero!! Jonathan is king!!! Anything else? I
> > surrender, I'll say whatever you want, your insesent ascii diarrhea
> > has beaten us all into submission!!!! Anything else you want me to say
> > to stop this thread just say!!! I'll do whatever you want!!! Please
> > just tell me what i can do..
> >
> > Mark
> >
> > On 3/25/06, Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es> wrote:
> >
> >>Mark Lowe wrote:
> >>
> >>>May I +1000 what steve said, I'm all for a bit of digression, but this
> >>>thread has narrowed the sematic gap between "to post" and "to smear"..
> >>
> >>What smear? Do you mean "smear" as in "slander"? Could you be more
> >>explicit about this? I think you ought to clarify what you mean by that
> >>statement or retract it.
> >>
> >>I asked Steve Raeburn the same question I have asked before. The
> >>question is as follows:
> >>
> >>"If your project management practices are so great, how come Struts
> >>development stagnated to such an extent?"
> >>
> >>The stagnation is not a matter of legitimate debate now. They have had
> >>to bring in Webwork, a competing project developed outside of ASF, so
> >>that they could have something more up-to-date to offer under the
> >>"Struts" brand-name.
> >>
> >>Why should I not ask that question? Because these people find it
> >>embarassing? Well, that's tough cookies, eh? Is that what you're talking
> >>about when you say a "smear"? I'm satisfied that this is a completely
> >>fair question. It's also a tough question, but it's 100% fair and it's
> >>100% on-topic to this discussion.
> >>
> >>I don't see any reason for these people to refuse to answer it. It's a
> >>natural question when people insist that their approach to project
> >>management is beyond reproach.
Okay .. You're correct 100%, I'm wrong.. Everything you say is
correct, I'm not disputing anything your say, and i retract anything
you feel obligied to respond to. Will that do? will you let the thread
die know? Please I beg you tell me what I can to help kill this
thread...
Mark
> >>
> >>Jonathan Revusky
> >>--
> >>lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/
> >>
> >>
> >>---------------------------------------------------------------------
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> >>For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
> >>
> >>
>
>
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Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es>.
Mark Lowe wrote:
> Look.. You've been invited to post your thoughts about the way that
> apache do stuff, to a more appropiate audience than a bunch of
> half-wit struts users like me..
Mark, I was involved in a conversation with various people. It so
happens that the conversation developed here.
What I'm wondering about all this is the following:
Suppose you went to some meeting, let's say a Struts Users Group
meeting. I'm talking about a non-virtual setting. At this meeting,
various people get involved in a discussion, maybe even a passionate,
heated discussion about something like this.
Under what circumstances would you butt into a conversation other people
were having and start loudly telling one or more of those people to shut
up? I mean in a situation in which you were not even part of the
discussion even.
I would bet that you never would behave like this, because this would be
outrageous, uncouth behavior. If you're not interested in what they're
talking about, simply wander off and have some other interaction. The
fact that these people are having whatever discussion does not cause you
any particular inconvenience or problem. Similarly, nobody forces you to
follow every conversation that is going on in this forum.
Now, if you think the above behavior is unacceptable in the non-virtual
meeting, why do you think it's acceptable here? You take it upon
yourself to jump into a conversation in which you were not even
participating and tell people to shut up.
Please explain why you think this is acceptable.
>
> I was using "smear" more in the context of "to soil"
>
> You might have a point, you might not, you could be the next pope for
> all i care.. Let the thread die.. What do you want? Everyone to say..
> Yes "jonathon you're correct", "freemarker is the best because you're
> involved and it employs a more open policy in respect to commit
> privledges" .. What do you want people to say?
As I said before, I posed a question. It was not a smarmy sarcastic
question like that of James Mitchell asking me where my patch for the
front web page was. I simply asked a straightforward question about why
Struts development had stagnated if all the project management practices
were so great.
This is a completely fair and relevant question in the context of the
discussion that developed. I asked the question because I truly was
interested to know what their answer would be.
I still don't know since nobody has answered the question. Again, why
should I not ask this question? In what way is it a "smear" for me to
ask this question?
And again, I will be fascinated to know why you think your behavior in
butting into a conversation in which you were not a participant is at
all acceptable. Maybe you should step back and think about this a bit.
Regards,
Jonathan Revusky
--
lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/
>
> Okay,.. You're my hero!! Jonathan is king!!! Anything else? I
> surrender, I'll say whatever you want, your insesent ascii diarrhea
> has beaten us all into submission!!!! Anything else you want me to say
> to stop this thread just say!!! I'll do whatever you want!!! Please
> just tell me what i can do..
>
> Mark
>
> On 3/25/06, Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es> wrote:
>
>>Mark Lowe wrote:
>>
>>>May I +1000 what steve said, I'm all for a bit of digression, but this
>>>thread has narrowed the sematic gap between "to post" and "to smear"..
>>
>>What smear? Do you mean "smear" as in "slander"? Could you be more
>>explicit about this? I think you ought to clarify what you mean by that
>>statement or retract it.
>>
>>I asked Steve Raeburn the same question I have asked before. The
>>question is as follows:
>>
>>"If your project management practices are so great, how come Struts
>>development stagnated to such an extent?"
>>
>>The stagnation is not a matter of legitimate debate now. They have had
>>to bring in Webwork, a competing project developed outside of ASF, so
>>that they could have something more up-to-date to offer under the
>>"Struts" brand-name.
>>
>>Why should I not ask that question? Because these people find it
>>embarassing? Well, that's tough cookies, eh? Is that what you're talking
>>about when you say a "smear"? I'm satisfied that this is a completely
>>fair question. It's also a tough question, but it's 100% fair and it's
>>100% on-topic to this discussion.
>>
>>I don't see any reason for these people to refuse to answer it. It's a
>>natural question when people insist that their approach to project
>>management is beyond reproach.
>>
>>Jonathan Revusky
>>--
>>lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/
>>
>>
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Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Mark Lowe <me...@gmail.com>.
Look.. You've been invited to post your thoughts about the way that
apache do stuff, to a more appropiate audience than a bunch of
half-wit struts users like me..
I was using "smear" more in the context of "to soil"
You might have a point, you might not, you could be the next pope for
all i care.. Let the thread die.. What do you want? Everyone to say..
Yes "jonathon you're correct", "freemarker is the best because you're
involved and it employs a more open policy in respect to commit
privledges" .. What do you want people to say?
Okay,.. You're my hero!! Jonathan is king!!! Anything else? I
surrender, I'll say whatever you want, your insesent ascii diarrhea
has beaten us all into submission!!!! Anything else you want me to say
to stop this thread just say!!! I'll do whatever you want!!! Please
just tell me what i can do..
Mark
On 3/25/06, Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es> wrote:
> Mark Lowe wrote:
> > May I +1000 what steve said, I'm all for a bit of digression, but this
> > thread has narrowed the sematic gap between "to post" and "to smear"..
>
> What smear? Do you mean "smear" as in "slander"? Could you be more
> explicit about this? I think you ought to clarify what you mean by that
> statement or retract it.
>
> I asked Steve Raeburn the same question I have asked before. The
> question is as follows:
>
> "If your project management practices are so great, how come Struts
> development stagnated to such an extent?"
>
> The stagnation is not a matter of legitimate debate now. They have had
> to bring in Webwork, a competing project developed outside of ASF, so
> that they could have something more up-to-date to offer under the
> "Struts" brand-name.
>
> Why should I not ask that question? Because these people find it
> embarassing? Well, that's tough cookies, eh? Is that what you're talking
> about when you say a "smear"? I'm satisfied that this is a completely
> fair question. It's also a tough question, but it's 100% fair and it's
> 100% on-topic to this discussion.
>
> I don't see any reason for these people to refuse to answer it. It's a
> natural question when people insist that their approach to project
> management is beyond reproach.
>
> Jonathan Revusky
> --
> lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es>.
Mark Lowe wrote:
> May I +1000 what steve said, I'm all for a bit of digression, but this
> thread has narrowed the sematic gap between "to post" and "to smear"..
What smear? Do you mean "smear" as in "slander"? Could you be more
explicit about this? I think you ought to clarify what you mean by that
statement or retract it.
I asked Steve Raeburn the same question I have asked before. The
question is as follows:
"If your project management practices are so great, how come Struts
development stagnated to such an extent?"
The stagnation is not a matter of legitimate debate now. They have had
to bring in Webwork, a competing project developed outside of ASF, so
that they could have something more up-to-date to offer under the
"Struts" brand-name.
Why should I not ask that question? Because these people find it
embarassing? Well, that's tough cookies, eh? Is that what you're talking
about when you say a "smear"? I'm satisfied that this is a completely
fair question. It's also a tough question, but it's 100% fair and it's
100% on-topic to this discussion.
I don't see any reason for these people to refuse to answer it. It's a
natural question when people insist that their approach to project
management is beyond reproach.
Jonathan Revusky
--
lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/
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Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Mark Lowe <me...@gmail.com>.
May I +1000 what steve said, I'm all for a bit of digression, but this
thread has narrowed the sematic gap between "to post" and "to smear"..
Its just become some sick kind of dirty protest
http://pso.hmprisonservice.gov.uk/pso1700/DIRTY%20PROTESTS.htm..
Mark
On 3/25/06, Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es> wrote:
> Dave Newton wrote:
> > Jonathan Revusky wrote:
>
> <snip>
> >
> > I have no publicly-accessible open-source projects. If I did, I would
> > not give commit access to anybody that asked for it, because I do not
> > have the time to review the contributions of others and do not trust J.
> > Random Coder enough to assume that they'll do the Right Thing, because
> > in general, most people aren't very good programmers.
>
> The whole idea that, when you give somebody commit privileges, that they
> just go beserk committing all kinds of code of questionable quality --
> this is just not something that really happens. I recognize that it
> could happen. Also it could happen that you give commit privileges to
> someone who is outright malicious. However, the latter would be so
> infrequent really that, IMO, it's not an issue. If a wandering serial
> saboteur -- the Ted Bundy of open source coding, if you will -- happens
> to get involved in your project, well, I would attribute that to
> inordinate bad luck, maybe like walking down the street and getting
> struck by lightning. Possible, but so unlikely that it does not
> condition your decision making.
>
> What usually happens is that people sound all enthusiastic about doing
> stuff and then, when they have the commit access, they simply do
> nothing. That is what happens easily the vast majority of times. People
> overestimate the time they can devote to something. They underestimate
> the investment that it is to really get their heads around the code.
>
> When people do start using their commit privileges they are usually
> quite timid about it initially and initiate discussion on your list
> prior to doing anything remotely controversial. People typically start
> off doing very small localized things. And these things are not very
> time consuming for the more established people on the team to review.
>
> One thing that would be possible is to encourage people to get their
> legs by doing things like working on unit tests and javadoc comments and
> so on. Most projects, unfortunately, have too little of both of those
> things and letting people in to initially work on that is quite low risk.
>
> That would provide a way for poeople to gradually get into the swing of
> things. I think that any people managing an open source project have to
> be thinking about how to get new blood into the project.
>
> >
> > Again, YMMV, and hopefully has!
> >
> >
> >>>If you have, that's great, and I'm glad it's working for you, and I
> >>>hope it continues to.
> >>
> >>It's not just working for me. It's working for a lot of people. A lot
> >>of people use FreeMarker, you know.
> >
> >
> > That's a pretty small sample size, but good :)
>
> Be that as it may, apparently it's infinitely greater than your
> experience running open source projects.
>
> Anyway, this is getting sterile. I've made my point. It is my considered
> view that this idea that the ability to commit code is something that
> needs to be this zealously guarded is not well founded.
>
> Probably a project like Struts would benefit from drastically lowering
> the bar to becoming a committer.
>
> The problem is that they've created this political structure where
> they've defined committers as people with political power and
> non-committers as people with no political power and so it has to do
> with a certain clique retaining their power. It has basically nothing to
> do with guarding the quality of the code.
>
> Actually, it is probable that being politically correct (less likely to
> disagree with the current clique) is a greater factor in becoming a
> committer than coding prowess is.
>
> Regards,
>
> Jonathan Revusky
> --
> lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/
> FreeMarker group blog, http://freemarker.blogspot.com/
>
> >
> > Dave
>
>
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Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Dakota Jack <da...@gmail.com>.
I fully understand Struts, Martin. Struts is fairly easy to understand. I
work with code that makes Struts look like tinker toys. I also understand
that Struts cannot be organized by the MVC paradigm and have discussed that
at length many times on the list. Ted is right that only loose coupling
with V --> C --> M is possible with web applications like Struts. I think
about what I actually see on the list. I don't think about what you are
claiming happens. I have complaints. Sorry if that offends you. I have
more knowledge about software architecture and design than you will ever
know, Martin. I have proposed alternatives. Unfortunately, the
"committers" decided on alternatives which have failed. They have had to
admit that but won't discuss it. That was the topic here, and you have
avoided it too. Would you care to discuss that?
On 3/25/06, Martin Gainty <mg...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> Steven-
>
> A multi-threaded enterprise wide solution that is organised according to
> true Model View Controller paradigm is NOT a pile of crap nor is anything
> else you dont understand-
> I would strongly suggest you think about all of the hard work and effort
> that the commiters and people on this list put into the product which is
> offered to us lowly developers
> basically for free
> In the meanwhile I would also strongly suggest you read everything you can
> about Software Architecture and Design so that you will be able to propose
> an alternative
> but If you have no alternative then opening your ears and listening to
> "how can we make our system more maintainable while accomodating enterpise
> wide needs for our customers"
> would be a constructive use of your time
>
> Martin-
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Steve Raeburn" <sr...@gmail.com>
> To: "Struts Users Mailing List" <us...@struts.apache.org>
> Sent: Saturday, March 25, 2006 5:33 AM
> Subject: Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
>
>
> >I normally ignore your crap and I'm sorry for prolonging this agony for
> >everyone. This really will be my last word.
> >
> > Michael, why do you continue to waste your time on such a "big pile of
> > crap" as Struts? What kind of a fool must you be for using the world's
> > worst web framework, run by a bunch on idiotic dictators? If you really
> > believe that, then you are as big a loser as you appear to be. If you
> > think you can do better, then fine, go do it. But please, quit whining
> and
> > doing nothing about it. Or do you just enjoy whining?
> >
> > Please. Get a life.
> >
> > Steve
> >
> > p.s. Don't bother addressing any reply to me. You'll just be pissing in
> > the wind.
> >
> > Dakota Jack wrote:
> >> The fact is that there will not be an explanation for this failure.
> >> While
> >> sitting in the biggest pile of crap code one could imagine, they
> continue
> >> to
> >> extoll their virtues as if they were about to be mentioned for an
> >> honorarium
> >> in computer history.
> >>
> >> <snip>
> >> On 3/24/06, Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Steve Raeburn wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Bottom line is that this is the way Apache works and it's not going
> to
> >>>> change.
> >>>>
> >>> In any case, it is not a subject of legitimate debate at this point
> that
> >>> progress on the Struts framework stagnated. If you guys were doing
> >>> everything right, then what is your explanation for that?
> >>>
> >>> Jonathan Revusky
> >>>
> >>
> >> </snip>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> "You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its
> back."
> >> ~Dakota Jack~
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
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>
--
"You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back."
~Dakota Jack~
Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es>.
Steve Raeburn wrote:
> I normally ignore your crap and I'm sorry for prolonging this agony for
> everyone. This really will be my last word.
>
> Michael, why do you continue to waste your time on such a "big pile of
> crap" as Struts? What kind of a fool must you be for using the world's
> worst web framework, run by a bunch on idiotic dictators?
Steve, do you realize that a lot of rank-and-file people out there don't
have a choice about what tools they use in their daily paid work? For
example, Patrick Lightbody, currently lead developer of the Webwork
project, was using Struts in his day job for a good while. I recall this
from looking at this blog. When he wrote this "Struts Really Sucks" blog
entry,
http://blogs.opensymphony.com/plightbo/2003/10/webwork_docaday_struts_really.html
he knew whereof he spoke. He had quite intimate knowledge of Struts from
having to use it at work.
If he'd had the choice in that day job, he surely would have been using
Webwork.
I remember at one point lurking on the Tapestry list a bit (a few years
back) and Howard Lewis Ship (Mr. Tapestry himself) mentioned that he was
using Struts in his day-job and finding it quite frustrating.
If Howard had had the choice, he surely would have used Tapestry.
Anyway, you really ought to answer the question I posed earlier. Why, in
your opinion, did Struts development stagnate? Surely you have thought
about this....
Regards,
Jonathan Revusky
--
lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/
> If you really
> believe that, then you are as big a loser as you appear to be. If you
> think you can do better, then fine, go do it. But please, quit whining
> and doing nothing about it. Or do you just enjoy whining?
>
> Please. Get a life.
>
> Steve
>
> p.s. Don't bother addressing any reply to me. You'll just be pissing in
> the wind.
>
> Dakota Jack wrote:
>
>> The fact is that there will not be an explanation for this failure.
>> While
>> sitting in the biggest pile of crap code one could imagine, they
>> continue to
>> extoll their virtues as if they were about to be mentioned for an
>> honorarium
>> in computer history.
>>
>> <snip>
>> On 3/24/06, Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Steve Raeburn wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> Bottom line is that this is the way Apache works and it's not going to
>>>> change.
>>>>
>>>
>>> In any case, it is not a subject of legitimate debate at this point that
>>> progress on the Struts framework stagnated. If you guys were doing
>>> everything right, then what is your explanation for that?
>>>
>>> Jonathan Revusky
>>>
>>
>>
>> </snip>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> "You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back."
>> ~Dakota Jack~
>>
>>
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Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Martin Gainty <mg...@hotmail.com>.
Steven-
A multi-threaded enterprise wide solution that is organised according to
true Model View Controller paradigm is NOT a pile of crap nor is anything
else you dont understand-
I would strongly suggest you think about all of the hard work and effort
that the commiters and people on this list put into the product which is
offered to us lowly developers
basically for free
In the meanwhile I would also strongly suggest you read everything you can
about Software Architecture and Design so that you will be able to propose
an alternative
but If you have no alternative then opening your ears and listening to
"how can we make our system more maintainable while accomodating enterpise
wide needs for our customers"
would be a constructive use of your time
Martin-
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Raeburn" <sr...@gmail.com>
To: "Struts Users Mailing List" <us...@struts.apache.org>
Sent: Saturday, March 25, 2006 5:33 AM
Subject: Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
>I normally ignore your crap and I'm sorry for prolonging this agony for
>everyone. This really will be my last word.
>
> Michael, why do you continue to waste your time on such a "big pile of
> crap" as Struts? What kind of a fool must you be for using the world's
> worst web framework, run by a bunch on idiotic dictators? If you really
> believe that, then you are as big a loser as you appear to be. If you
> think you can do better, then fine, go do it. But please, quit whining and
> doing nothing about it. Or do you just enjoy whining?
>
> Please. Get a life.
>
> Steve
>
> p.s. Don't bother addressing any reply to me. You'll just be pissing in
> the wind.
>
> Dakota Jack wrote:
>> The fact is that there will not be an explanation for this failure.
>> While
>> sitting in the biggest pile of crap code one could imagine, they continue
>> to
>> extoll their virtues as if they were about to be mentioned for an
>> honorarium
>> in computer history.
>>
>> <snip>
>> On 3/24/06, Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es> wrote:
>>
>>> Steve Raeburn wrote:
>>>
>>>> Bottom line is that this is the way Apache works and it's not going to
>>>> change.
>>>>
>>> In any case, it is not a subject of legitimate debate at this point that
>>> progress on the Struts framework stagnated. If you guys were doing
>>> everything right, then what is your explanation for that?
>>>
>>> Jonathan Revusky
>>>
>>
>> </snip>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> "You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back."
>> ~Dakota Jack~
>>
>>
>
>
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Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Steve Raeburn <sr...@gmail.com>.
I normally ignore your crap and I'm sorry for prolonging this agony for
everyone. This really will be my last word.
Michael, why do you continue to waste your time on such a "big pile of
crap" as Struts? What kind of a fool must you be for using the world's
worst web framework, run by a bunch on idiotic dictators? If you really
believe that, then you are as big a loser as you appear to be. If you
think you can do better, then fine, go do it. But please, quit whining
and doing nothing about it. Or do you just enjoy whining?
Please. Get a life.
Steve
p.s. Don't bother addressing any reply to me. You'll just be pissing in
the wind.
Dakota Jack wrote:
> The fact is that there will not be an explanation for this failure. While
> sitting in the biggest pile of crap code one could imagine, they continue to
> extoll their virtues as if they were about to be mentioned for an honorarium
> in computer history.
>
> <snip>
> On 3/24/06, Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es> wrote:
>
>> Steve Raeburn wrote:
>>
>>> Bottom line is that this is the way Apache works and it's not going to
>>> change.
>>>
>> In any case, it is not a subject of legitimate debate at this point that
>> progress on the Struts framework stagnated. If you guys were doing
>> everything right, then what is your explanation for that?
>>
>> Jonathan Revusky
>>
>
> </snip>
>
>
>
>
> --
> "You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back."
> ~Dakota Jack~
>
>
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Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Dave Newton <ne...@pingsite.com>.
Dakota Jack wrote:
> While sitting in the biggest pile of crap code one could imagine,
Oooooooooo, heavens no.
Maybe you haven't seen much code, but believe me: it gets much, much,
MUCH worse.
Dave
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Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Dakota Jack <da...@gmail.com>.
The fact is that there will not be an explanation for this failure. While
sitting in the biggest pile of crap code one could imagine, they continue to
extoll their virtues as if they were about to be mentioned for an honorarium
in computer history.
<snip>
On 3/24/06, Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es> wrote:
>
> Steve Raeburn wrote:
> > Bottom line is that this is the way Apache works and it's not going to
> > change.
>
> In any case, it is not a subject of legitimate debate at this point that
> progress on the Struts framework stagnated. If you guys were doing
> everything right, then what is your explanation for that?
>
> Jonathan Revusky
</snip>
--
"You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back."
~Dakota Jack~
Re: maintaining human standards [was Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation]
Posted by Dakota Jack <da...@gmail.com>.
Don't complain about the content of the list again, Mitchell. You don't
have the fortitude to respond to questiona about the failure of Struts even
though you are an active committer and you complain about this thread, and
yet, like most of the complainers about the thread, you take it down this
path. Why not just address the issues? Why not? Why?
On 3/27/06, James Mitchell <jm...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> > Now, it's obviously a valid question that Struts developers should
> > answer.
>
> It _is_ an invalid question, that's why everyone is ignoring you.
>
>
> And now, I'd like to respond to you with your own words, from your
> own not-so-kind off list response to me (of course, censored because
> this is a public list)...
>
>
> ... this is sh** is getting personal now. Who the f*** do you think
> you are? You must be one ill-bred little f***.
>
> I don't have to give you any feedback on your lame-a** website. I
> don't have to give you anything. I don't owe you or any of your
> cohorts a f***ing thing.
>
> If you want to start maintaining human standards of behavior, the
> next time somebody gives you any feedback on your work, here's what
> you should say:
>
> "Thank you."
>
> I guess nobody ever taught you that. Do you know how bad I made you
> look there? I hope I completely humiliated you.
>
> If you f*** with me any more, I'll humiliate you some more.
>
> People like you are very very bad for open source. Some people's
> first experience of an open source project is something like Struts
> full of arrogant little a**-licking toady bastards like you.
>
> F*** you, you contemptible little sh**.
>
>
>
> Now that that's off my chest, I shall forever send your replies to /
> dev/null.
>
> Have a wonderful day.
>
>
> --
> James Mitchell
>
> P.S. "Thank you"
>
>
>
> On Mar 27, 2006, at 2:53 PM, Jonathan Revusky wrote:
>
> > Emmanouil Batsis wrote:
> >> Jonathan Revusky wrote:
> >>> Struts has also fallen further and further behind technically in
> >>> its space. (This has what has led to the Webwork merger so that
> >>> the "Struts umbrella" could offer something reasonably up-to-date.)
> >> [Note: This is not a reply to Jonathan personally]
> >
> > Yes, note that I am actually not the best qualified person to
> > answer this.
> >
> > Now, it's obviously a valid question that Struts developers should
> > answer. They decided to abandon work on Struts 1.x and bring
> > Webwork over here and work on that. So they really should be the
> > ones to answer your question. However, one gets the sense that they
> > don't want to answer such questions....
> >
> >> I keep seeing posts claiming Struts Action/Classic is technically
> >> old etc etc; is there a resource available summarizing how exactly
> >> this is true?
> >
> > It did not take me long using google to find the following page:
> >
> > http://wiki.opensymphony.com/display/WW/Comparison+to+Struts
> >
> > Of course, that list was surely worked up by the Webwork people and
> > is thus, not from an unbiased source. Still, I would suppose that
> > the points there are truthful.
> >
> > In any case, the fact is that the Struts developers have decided
> > that they prefer to move the Webwork code over here and work on
> > that, so they have accepted that Webwork is better. I think that
> > has to be taken at face value, since, you'd think that most people
> > in their situation would prefer to have a tooth extracted rather
> > than accept that their work is inferior. But that is what happened.
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Jonathan Revusky
> > --
> > lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/
> > FreeMarker group blog, http://freemarker.blogspot.com/
> >
> >
> >> Thanks,
> >> Manos
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
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> >
>
>
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>
--
"You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back."
~Dakota Jack~
Re: maintaining human standards [was Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation]
Posted by Michael Jouravlev <jm...@gmail.com>.
On 3/27/06, Dave Newton <ne...@pingsite.com> wrote:
> James Mitchell wrote:
> > [ Jonathon's well-reasoned response ;]
So the whole thing was Jonathan's monologue? In this case I admire his
breadth of writing styles.
I am still wondering how the whole merger will work out with
FreeMarker being default view technology for WebWork.
By the way, I got an email from administrator@ns1.c-cor.com address
with the message "This email has triggered the content filter for
appearing to violate the PROFANITY policy". All I did is I used
"bi*ch" word (this is how they call lady dogs, aren't they?). Big
brother is watching...
Michael.
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Re: maintaining human standards [was Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation]
Posted by Ted Husted <te...@gmail.com>.
On 3/27/06, Michael Jouravlev <jm...@gmail.com> wrote:
> First, why replying in public list? Then, who said what exactly?
> (would be interesting to know, since you offloaded this pile into a
> public list).
Personally, I'm not interested, and I'm dev/nulling the whole thread.
But, then I don't rubberneck at traffic collisions either :)
-T.
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Re: maintaining human standards [was Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation]
Posted by Dakota Jack <da...@gmail.com>.
So Craig now has committer rights on who is a first class citizen? Quite
frankly, I thought Craig would at least defend the people he put in place
and the people who tore down the house with some excuses other than "we had
to make bad code because we are genius's". But, rather than do that, he
continues to act as if he is lead something. As far as I am concerned,
Craig is just another guy in the lineup.
On 3/27/06, Craig McClanahan <cr...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> On 3/27/06, Larry Meadors <lm...@apache.org> wrote:
> >
> > So...are any of the others as bad as this butt-monkey?
>
>
> You mean the WW2 guys? All the ones I've met are first class citizens.
>
> By the way, Jonathan is *not* a WW2 committer -- he's involved in
> Freemarker.
>
> Larry
>
>
> Craig
>
>
--
"You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back."
~Dakota Jack~
Re: maintaining human standards [was Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation]
Posted by Dakota Jack <da...@gmail.com>.
This is on topic? What about the substantive question, Craig, that you
quizzically said was "WILDLY" off topic. Do you even care to appear
consistent?
On 3/27/06, Craig McClanahan <cr...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> On 3/27/06, Larry Meadors <lm...@apache.org> wrote:
> >
> > So...are any of the others as bad as this butt-monkey?
>
>
> You mean the WW2 guys? All the ones I've met are first class citizens.
>
> By the way, Jonathan is *not* a WW2 committer -- he's involved in
> Freemarker.
>
> Larry
>
>
> Craig
>
>
--
"You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back."
~Dakota Jack~
Re: maintaining human standards [was Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation]
Posted by Craig McClanahan <cr...@apache.org>.
On 3/27/06, Larry Meadors <lm...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> So...are any of the others as bad as this butt-monkey?
You mean the WW2 guys? All the ones I've met are first class citizens.
By the way, Jonathan is *not* a WW2 committer -- he's involved in
Freemarker.
Larry
Craig
Re: maintaining human standards [was Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts
reached the saturation]
Posted by Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es>.
Larry Meadors wrote:
> So...are any of the others as bad as this butt-monkey?
Larry, Craig brought up the issue of whether certain content was
off-topic for the list, but what about something like your comment here,
which simply has no content and there is no attempt for it to have any
content. At least in the private message to James, I was telling him
something pretty directly. He really made me angry. But this message is
just the equivalent of giving somebody the raspberry because you lack
the wherewithal to say anything -- political, technical, satirical, or
anything. Just nothing!
This whole current situation arose from a guy who is on the Struts PMC,
BTW, posting a private message on this list! I mean, you just don't do
that! Yet I see it already. You're going to twist it into saying that
*this* discussion is *my* fault.
Are you guys all real people? Or did you all escape off the pages of a
comic book or something? You don't quite seem 3-dimensional....
Jonathan Revusky
--
lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/
P.S. Larry, why did Struts development stagnate?
>
> Larry
>
> On 3/27/06, Craig McClanahan <cr...@apache.org> wrote:
>
>>On 3/27/06, Vinny <xa...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>Maybe it's time we heard from the WW2 guys?
>>
>>
>>Several of them have already spoken up ... on the dev list, where it
>>belongs, where stuff gets decided.
>>
>>Craig
>>
>>
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Re: maintaining human standards [was Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation]
Posted by Larry Meadors <lm...@apache.org>.
So...are any of the others as bad as this butt-monkey?
Larry
On 3/27/06, Craig McClanahan <cr...@apache.org> wrote:
> On 3/27/06, Vinny <xa...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Maybe it's time we heard from the WW2 guys?
>
>
> Several of them have already spoken up ... on the dev list, where it
> belongs, where stuff gets decided.
>
> Craig
>
>
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Re: maintaining human standards [was Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation]
Posted by Dakota Jack <da...@gmail.com>.
If you leave out the substance of a conversation to say something that is so
dark that no one can figure out what it means, then you have truly, truly
reached the apex of the natural curve to your career, Newton.
Congratulations. Would you care to say something about the issues Jonathan
has raised? If not, on this thread I am done with you and want to thank you
for providing an example of those who support the coding that has taken
place the last few years on Struts. The committers can be proud to have you
as their spokesperson.
On 3/28/06, Dave Newton <ne...@pingsite.com> wrote:
>
> Dakota Jack wrote:
> > Newton, you remind me of a 13 year old girl.
>
> Ooo, guess I'd better watch my back then, huh.
>
> > Have you ever said anything worth reading?
> >
>
> I'll assume that's rhetorical, since only others could answer that.
>
> Dave
>
>
>
>
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>
--
"You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back."
~Dakota Jack~
Re: maintaining human standards [was: has struts reached the saturation]
Posted by Hey Nony Moose <he...@liveonthe.net>.
(picture a mood of mild sadness, at such respected gurus needing to take
to each other with little textual swords, and at my failed attempt at
thinning it down to an ending via a lame Court Jester role ... yet i
will hopefully jest on, tragically awaiting the inevitable end of the
king's patience, finally performing my own litte train wreck alongside
the one that i am jesting for)
Jonathan Revusky wrote:
> Moose,
>
> Open source software, like every other human endeavor, is political.
> It has politics.
yes
>
> I have engaged here in some forthright political speech about
> open-source software development issues. I did not even initiate the
> discussion. It was already going on.
yes, have watched it from the start, including your join, which i
actually noted in my mail.
>
> You seem to have a very basic misconception. You really seem to think
> that people have to agree with my political views to use FreeMarker or
> any other thing I am involved with.
no, i was aware of the valid disconnection of passion/approval and
logic/inclusion, i was parodying its disuse (trying anyway, not very
well) - to some degree i was alluding to the herd-like nature of
humanity, ie: that tragically some really important decisions are made
for absurd reasons with counter-productive consequences ("cut off your
nose to spite your face"). on the other hand it is perhaps also of note
that large numbers of decisions are made on purely relational bases.
managers don't buy from saleman that they believe have the best product,
they buy from salesmen that they have developed an effective working
relationship with (read: who they *like*).
>
> That is simply not the case. The FreeMarker community is really a
> pretty good community. You can ask questions and make suggestions, and
> we will be as helpful as we can. We always have been. It's not a
> problem. On a technical plane, you can interact with me and the rest
> of the people perfectly well. On a technical plane, if people ask me
> questions here, I will be as helpful as I can.
i imagine so. i havent used it yet (being a relative newbie), though i
respect it from an ignorant distance.
>
> Using FreeMarker is quite straightforward anyway. We have pretty good
> docs. So the vast majority of people who use it have no interaction
> with us. Very likely, except for the minority subscribe to the list or
> happened on the "Who We Are" page they do not even know who I am and
> don't care. They just use the thing. And that's normal.
sounds normalish to me
>
> FreeMarker was chosen as the default presentation technology in
> Webwork 2.2, not because of the political views of any of its
> developers, but for solid technical reasons.
very good
>
> If this community wants to go the route of making technology decisions
> based on personalities and politics rather than the technical
> considerations, they are free to do so.
free. freedom of choice. what a divine moment in history. i wonder
how long it will last? imagine if we lived in a political dictatorship
that actually told us what software to use! yuk. perhaps when the
American Microsoft Party wins the 2060 presidential election, we'll all
be executed for treason. (insert any tyranical political manifestation
of note from the 20th century in place of AMP and you might get a
glimpse ... nazis, taliban, sadam whatsisname, pinochet, ...)
> But this would doom you to technical mediocrity from the start.
no i'm personally doomed to technical mediocrity by my own feeble
incapacities. nothing else rates as a criteria. there's no other
reason so there's no other excuse.
> Other, competing products, that do not operate under these
> constraints, and simply use the best tools for the job, will eat your
> lunch.
nobody touches *my* vegemite sandwiches! actually no-one *wants* to
touch my vegemite sandwiches ...
>
> Moose, it is very sad that you feel such fear, that you feel obliged
> to interact here anonymously, and even then, to do so with such
> trepidation, lest you might offend somebody.
this is a fact. :.( i can't do anything about it. i have a mortgage
and a family. they can't afford me to make a mistake. even doing this
is a risk. smell the fear.
> Wouldn't it be great to live without fear, to just be able to talk, to
> say forthrightly what you think about stuff? Imagine the next time
> some pretentious poo-bah at your job says something that you really
> think is just hot air, you could just say: "Hey, that's bull****.
> Here's why." Wouldn't that be great?
yes
>
> Of course, your work environment is not like that. But the open source
> world is like that. Well, I thought it was. Sh*t, maybe I was
> mistaken. :-( But if this is just like the corporate environment and
> we're not getting paid to be here, then what are we doing here? Is
> this just masochism?
no, it's just 1984. if the only people watching these forums were the
forum users then it would be safe to have an open conversation. but
gumbies blog stuff like this for the benefit of greasing their future
bosses, and bosses google their incoming employees names to shorten
selection lists. politicians get elected and news services get watched
based on who spins the best, not who has any visible substance. people
who speak the truth are living dinosaurs. it's all spin now. the
internet is over.
>
> Jonathan Revusky
> --
> lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/
Useless Moose.
--
lead on nothing, just trying to cut some code for a dollar ... when
hundreds of Indians and Chinese are about to do it for 99c less. (note
that none of the Indians and Chinese are actively involved in this
debate. they're busy cutting code, not wasting time on political theory.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Hey Nony Moose wrote:
>
>> Jonathan Revusky wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Vinny wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> Seriously I'd rather use Spring, Wicket or Rife than use something
>>>> made by people like this guy.
>>>
>>>
>>> Yeah, it's terrible. Just so you guys can make better informed
>>> technical decisions, I'll disclose ...snip... terrible table manners
>>> ...snip... horrendous slurping ...snip... belcher and farter.
>>> ...snip... so that people can make the right technical decisions.
>>> Jonathan Revusky
>>> lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/
>>
>>
>>
>> (caveat: I have no dog in the fight. I am somwhat concerned that there
>> is a fight going on and I am sincerely hopeful for a good outcome for
>> each of the combatants, and I see irony and sarcasm as possible
>> train-wreckage removal or beautification devices. And I'm a user not a
>> dev, so you won't see me continuing this on the dev list.)
>>
>> Wow. Jonathan, you must be very confident of your income stream! (I'm
>> not, as a reference point) You must be one of these "I've made so much
>> money by now, I really don't care what people think of me"
>> developers. (I'm not, as a reference point) Or perhaps you rely on
>> your technical
>> skill being so unavoidably evident that you can be publicly "direct"
>> (ahem) and get away with it. (I can't, as a reference point) :(
>> ... sigh ... it is quite different to those of us who have to
>> hide behind newbie politeness or just pathetic anonymity in case we say
>> something either so rude or so tehnically stupid that a future employer
>> will notice it and cut us off their interview list. It brings to mind
>> the cartoon of Dilbert going to work in a bathrobe because he'd realised
>> his *actual* worth to the company.
>> Mind you I don't agree (a little understated) with the strategy of being
>> rude as a practice. I think that one has to factor in the 90%
>> non-verbal content of face-to-face communications that goes missing in
>> email conversations. Perhaps if this entire conversation had occured at
>> a JUG or cafe (or under the supervision of a panel of psychiatrists and
>> professional wrestlers), we would have noticed the little smiles
>> grimaces and so forth that each other were dressing our faces with and
>> kept some of the lines a little more guarded. But gosh, here I am, a
>> nobody giving newbie advice to gurus. sigh.
>> Sadly I recall Jonathan's first email to the list, and an early reply
>> from one of the leads saying a warm "welcome". Perhaps I'll dig it out
>> of the archive and repost it for a glowing moment ... like "It was a
>> nice warm morning in Hiroshima on August 6 and there was the sound of a
>> plane overhead ... I always liked the sound of airplanes flying over and
>> ... ".
>> Won't it be disappointing to see the first technical decision of the WW2
>> Struts merger be that the default presentation whatever is changed from
>> Freemarker to XXX, purely based on an unworkable inter-team personality
>> confict rather than any tech criteria?
>> And I can't understand why this thread hasn't been slashdotted yet ...
>> "OS Gurus Flay Each Other and Set a New Direction for the Entire
>> Internet, While MS Laughs" from the my-pattern-is-better-than-yours dept
>> Oh, by the way ... what's "disrupting the market" mean?
>>
>> Mourning Moose
>
>
>
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Re: maintaining human standards [was: has struts reached the saturation]
Posted by Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es>.
Moose,
Open source software, like every other human endeavor, is political. It
has politics.
I have engaged here in some forthright political speech about
open-source software development issues. I did not even initiate the
discussion. It was already going on.
You seem to have a very basic misconception. You really seem to think
that people have to agree with my political views to use FreeMarker or
any other thing I am involved with.
That is simply not the case. The FreeMarker community is really a pretty
good community. You can ask questions and make suggestions, and we will
be as helpful as we can. We always have been. It's not a problem. On a
technical plane, you can interact with me and the rest of the people
perfectly well. On a technical plane, if people ask me questions here, I
will be as helpful as I can.
Using FreeMarker is quite straightforward anyway. We have pretty good
docs. So the vast majority of people who use it have no interaction with
us. Very likely, except for the minority subscribe to the list or
happened on the "Who We Are" page they do not even know who I am and
don't care. They just use the thing. And that's normal.
FreeMarker was chosen as the default presentation technology in Webwork
2.2, not because of the political views of any of its developers, but
for solid technical reasons.
If this community wants to go the route of making technology decisions
based on personalities and politics rather than the technical
considerations, they are free to do so. But this would doom you to
technical mediocrity from the start. Other, competing products, that do
not operate under these constraints, and simply use the best tools for
the job, will eat your lunch.
Moose, it is very sad that you feel such fear, that you feel obliged to
interact here anonymously, and even then, to do so with such
trepidation, lest you might offend somebody. Wouldn't it be great to
live without fear, to just be able to talk, to say forthrightly what you
think about stuff? Imagine the next time some pretentious poo-bah at
your job says something that you really think is just hot air, you could
just say: "Hey, that's bull****. Here's why." Wouldn't that be great?
Of course, your work environment is not like that. But the open source
world is like that. Well, I thought it was. Sh*t, maybe I was mistaken.
:-( But if this is just like the corporate environment and we're not
getting paid to be here, then what are we doing here? Is this just
masochism?
Jonathan Revusky
--
lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/
Hey Nony Moose wrote:
> Jonathan Revusky wrote:
>
>
>>Vinny wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Seriously I'd rather use Spring, Wicket or Rife than use something
>>>made by people like this guy.
>>
>>Yeah, it's terrible. Just so you guys can make better informed
>>technical decisions, I'll disclose ...snip... terrible table manners
>>...snip... horrendous slurping ...snip... belcher and farter.
>>...snip... so that people can make the right technical decisions.
>>Jonathan Revusky
>>lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/
>
>
> (caveat: I have no dog in the fight. I am somwhat concerned that there
> is a fight going on and I am sincerely hopeful for a good outcome for
> each of the combatants, and I see irony and sarcasm as possible
> train-wreckage removal or beautification devices. And I'm a user not a
> dev, so you won't see me continuing this on the dev list.)
>
> Wow. Jonathan, you must be very confident of your income stream! (I'm
> not, as a reference point) You must be one of these "I've made so much
> money by now, I really don't care what people think of me" developers.
> (I'm not, as a reference point) Or perhaps you rely on your technical
> skill being so unavoidably evident that you can be publicly "direct"
> (ahem) and get away with it. (I can't, as a reference point)
> :( ... sigh ... it is quite different to those of us who have to
> hide behind newbie politeness or just pathetic anonymity in case we say
> something either so rude or so tehnically stupid that a future employer
> will notice it and cut us off their interview list. It brings to mind
> the cartoon of Dilbert going to work in a bathrobe because he'd realised
> his *actual* worth to the company.
> Mind you I don't agree (a little understated) with the strategy of being
> rude as a practice. I think that one has to factor in the 90%
> non-verbal content of face-to-face communications that goes missing in
> email conversations. Perhaps if this entire conversation had occured at
> a JUG or cafe (or under the supervision of a panel of psychiatrists and
> professional wrestlers), we would have noticed the little smiles
> grimaces and so forth that each other were dressing our faces with and
> kept some of the lines a little more guarded. But gosh, here I am, a
> nobody giving newbie advice to gurus. sigh.
> Sadly I recall Jonathan's first email to the list, and an early reply
> from one of the leads saying a warm "welcome". Perhaps I'll dig it out
> of the archive and repost it for a glowing moment ... like "It was a
> nice warm morning in Hiroshima on August 6 and there was the sound of a
> plane overhead ... I always liked the sound of airplanes flying over and
> ... ".
> Won't it be disappointing to see the first technical decision of the WW2
> Struts merger be that the default presentation whatever is changed from
> Freemarker to XXX, purely based on an unworkable inter-team personality
> confict rather than any tech criteria?
> And I can't understand why this thread hasn't been slashdotted yet ...
> "OS Gurus Flay Each Other and Set a New Direction for the Entire
> Internet, While MS Laughs" from the my-pattern-is-better-than-yours dept
> Oh, by the way ... what's "disrupting the market" mean?
>
> Mourning Moose
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Re: maintaining human standards [was: has struts reached the saturation]
Posted by Hey Nony Moose <he...@liveonthe.net>.
Jonathan Revusky wrote:
> Vinny wrote:
>
>> Seriously I'd rather use Spring, Wicket or Rife than use something
>> made by people like this guy.
>
> Yeah, it's terrible. Just so you guys can make better informed
> technical decisions, I'll disclose ...snip... terrible table manners
> ...snip... horrendous slurping ...snip... belcher and farter.
> ...snip... so that people can make the right technical decisions.
> Jonathan Revusky
> lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/
(caveat: I have no dog in the fight. I am somwhat concerned that there
is a fight going on and I am sincerely hopeful for a good outcome for
each of the combatants, and I see irony and sarcasm as possible
train-wreckage removal or beautification devices. And I'm a user not a
dev, so you won't see me continuing this on the dev list.)
Wow. Jonathan, you must be very confident of your income stream! (I'm
not, as a reference point) You must be one of these "I've made so much
money by now, I really don't care what people think of me" developers.
(I'm not, as a reference point) Or perhaps you rely on your technical
skill being so unavoidably evident that you can be publicly "direct"
(ahem) and get away with it. (I can't, as a reference point)
:( ... sigh ... it is quite different to those of us who have to
hide behind newbie politeness or just pathetic anonymity in case we say
something either so rude or so tehnically stupid that a future employer
will notice it and cut us off their interview list. It brings to mind
the cartoon of Dilbert going to work in a bathrobe because he'd realised
his *actual* worth to the company.
Mind you I don't agree (a little understated) with the strategy of being
rude as a practice. I think that one has to factor in the 90%
non-verbal content of face-to-face communications that goes missing in
email conversations. Perhaps if this entire conversation had occured at
a JUG or cafe (or under the supervision of a panel of psychiatrists and
professional wrestlers), we would have noticed the little smiles
grimaces and so forth that each other were dressing our faces with and
kept some of the lines a little more guarded. But gosh, here I am, a
nobody giving newbie advice to gurus. sigh.
Sadly I recall Jonathan's first email to the list, and an early reply
from one of the leads saying a warm "welcome". Perhaps I'll dig it out
of the archive and repost it for a glowing moment ... like "It was a
nice warm morning in Hiroshima on August 6 and there was the sound of a
plane overhead ... I always liked the sound of airplanes flying over and
... ".
Won't it be disappointing to see the first technical decision of the WW2
Struts merger be that the default presentation whatever is changed from
Freemarker to XXX, purely based on an unworkable inter-team personality
confict rather than any tech criteria?
And I can't understand why this thread hasn't been slashdotted yet ...
"OS Gurus Flay Each Other and Set a New Direction for the Entire
Internet, While MS Laughs" from the my-pattern-is-better-than-yours dept
Oh, by the way ... what's "disrupting the market" mean?
Mourning Moose
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Re: maintaining human standards [was Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts
reached the saturation]
Posted by Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es>.
Vinny wrote:
> Maybe it's time we heard from the WW2 guys?
> Does Jonathan represent the viewpoint of the WW2 developers that
> are coming on board?
Actually, I'm not a WW2 developer. However, FreeMarker is used pretty
centrally in WW2 and FreeMarker currently is largely my fault.
> Seriously I'd rather use Spring, Wicket or Rife than use
> something made by people like this guy.
Yeah, it's terrible. Just so you guys can make better informed technical
decisions, I'll disclose some more things about myself.
I have terrible table manners, you know. I chew with my mouth open.
There is this horrendous slurping sound I make when I eat my soup. It
empties entire restaurants. People run out of there screaming.
Also, I'm a world class belcher and farter.
Knowing all this, I don't think anybody in their right mind would want
to use any software I wrote. Amazingly, some people still do. But yes, I
think it is only fair to disclose the above things, so that people can
make the right technical decisions.
Regards,
Jonathan Revusky
--
lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/
>
>
>
> On 3/27/06, Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es> wrote:
>
>>Michael Jouravlev wrote:
>>
>>>On 3/27/06, James Mitchell <jm...@apache.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>>Now, it's obviously a valid question that Struts developers should
>>>>>answer.
>>>>
>>>>It _is_ an invalid question, that's why everyone is ignoring you.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>And now, I'd like to respond to you with your own words, from your
>>>>own not-so-kind off list response to me (of course, censored because
>>>>this is a public list)...
>>>
>>>
>>><skipped>
>>>
>>>First, why replying in public list?
>>
>>I can't answer that one. James Mitchell is the one who put this note up
>>in public. I think it was a very bad idea on his part.
>>
>>
>>>Then, who said what exactly?
>>
>>Well, I can clarify this part somewhat. The part that begins with:
>>
>>"this is sh** is getting personal now."
>>
>>and ends with:
>>
>>"F*** you, you contemptible little sh**."
>>
>>was a private message from me to James Mitchell. This was after he
>
>
>
> --
> Ghetto Java: http://www.ghettojava.com
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Re: maintaining human standards [was Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation]
Posted by Craig McClanahan <cr...@apache.org>.
On 3/27/06, Vinny <xa...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Maybe it's time we heard from the WW2 guys?
Several of them have already spoken up ... on the dev list, where it
belongs, where stuff gets decided.
Craig
Re: maintaining human standards [was Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation]
Posted by Vinny <xa...@gmail.com>.
Maybe it's time we heard from the WW2 guys?
Does Jonathan represent the viewpoint of the WW2 developers that
are coming on board? Seriously I'd rather use Spring, Wicket or Rife than use
something made by people like this guy.
On 3/27/06, Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es> wrote:
> Michael Jouravlev wrote:
> > On 3/27/06, James Mitchell <jm...@apache.org> wrote:
> >
> >>>Now, it's obviously a valid question that Struts developers should
> >>>answer.
> >>
> >>It _is_ an invalid question, that's why everyone is ignoring you.
> >>
> >>
> >>And now, I'd like to respond to you with your own words, from your
> >>own not-so-kind off list response to me (of course, censored because
> >>this is a public list)...
> >
> >
> > <skipped>
> >
> > First, why replying in public list?
>
> I can't answer that one. James Mitchell is the one who put this note up
> in public. I think it was a very bad idea on his part.
>
> > Then, who said what exactly?
>
> Well, I can clarify this part somewhat. The part that begins with:
>
> "this is sh** is getting personal now."
>
> and ends with:
>
> "F*** you, you contemptible little sh**."
>
> was a private message from me to James Mitchell. This was after he
--
Ghetto Java: http://www.ghettojava.com
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Re: maintaining human standards [was Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts
reached the saturation]
Posted by Dave Newton <ne...@pingsite.com>.
Dakota Jack wrote:
> Newton, you remind me of a 13 year old girl.
Ooo, guess I'd better watch my back then, huh.
> Have you ever said anything worth reading?
>
I'll assume that's rhetorical, since only others could answer that.
Dave
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Re: maintaining human standards [was Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation]
Posted by Dakota Jack <da...@gmail.com>.
Newton, you remind me of a 13 year old girl. Why don't you offer something
worthwhile once in your life. Have you ever said anything worth reading?
Please take your giggling and your curtesying elsewhere. And, leave the
"little boys" alone.
On 3/27/06, Dave Newton <ne...@pingsite.com> wrote:
>
> Jonathan Revusky wrote:
> > I think it was a very bad idea on his part.
>
> Of course _you_ do, you foul-mouthed little boy!
>
> _I_ think it was great :D
>
> I'm _still_ all a-giggle!
>
> Dave
>
>
>
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>
>
--
"You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back."
~Dakota Jack~
Re: maintaining human standards [was Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts
reached the saturation]
Posted by Dave Newton <ne...@pingsite.com>.
Jonathan Revusky wrote:
> I think it was a very bad idea on his part.
Of course _you_ do, you foul-mouthed little boy!
_I_ think it was great :D
I'm _still_ all a-giggle!
Dave
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Re: maintaining human standards [was Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts
reached the saturation]
Posted by Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es>.
Michael Jouravlev wrote:
> On 3/27/06, James Mitchell <jm...@apache.org> wrote:
>
>>>Now, it's obviously a valid question that Struts developers should
>>>answer.
>>
>>It _is_ an invalid question, that's why everyone is ignoring you.
>>
>>
>>And now, I'd like to respond to you with your own words, from your
>>own not-so-kind off list response to me (of course, censored because
>>this is a public list)...
>
>
> <skipped>
>
> First, why replying in public list?
I can't answer that one. James Mitchell is the one who put this note up
in public. I think it was a very bad idea on his part.
> Then, who said what exactly?
Well, I can clarify this part somewhat. The part that begins with:
"this is sh** is getting personal now."
and ends with:
"F*** you, you contemptible little sh**."
was a private message from me to James Mitchell. This was after he
insulted me as a result of my offering honest feedback on the
struts.apache.org page.
The message was, of course, not meant to appear on this list. However, I
stand by it completely. People like James Mitchell (and certain others
here) are a terrible thing for open source. I already expressed in
public separately that, if somebody gives you feedback on your work, you
thank them. If that is not written anywhere as part of the "Apache Way"
it should be.
> (would be interesting to know, since you offloaded this pile into a
> public list).
>
> And the bitch is: does not SAF2 start smooth, considering that
> FreeMarker is the default view technology for WebWork 2.2.
Well, FreeMarker has a license that is basically the same BSD-style
license that ASF uses. There is no requirement there for anybody who
uses this work to share my political views. Actually, they don't even
have to like my guts. :-)
Regards,
Jonathan Revusky
--
lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/
>
> Everybody dance now!
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Re: maintaining human standards [was Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation]
Posted by Michael Jouravlev <jm...@gmail.com>.
On 3/27/06, James Mitchell <jm...@apache.org> wrote:
> > Now, it's obviously a valid question that Struts developers should
> > answer.
>
> It _is_ an invalid question, that's why everyone is ignoring you.
>
>
> And now, I'd like to respond to you with your own words, from your
> own not-so-kind off list response to me (of course, censored because
> this is a public list)...
<skipped>
First, why replying in public list? Then, who said what exactly?
(would be interesting to know, since you offloaded this pile into a
public list).
And the bitch is: does not SAF2 start smooth, considering that
FreeMarker is the default view technology for WebWork 2.2.
Everybody dance now!
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Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Dave Newton <ne...@pingsite.com>.
Jonathan Revusky wrote:
> Tell me, does the same old wine in a new bottle taste any different?
Depends on the new bottle and the process used to transfer the wine.
Yep; wine geek, too.
Dave
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Re: maintaining human standards [was Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts
reached the saturation]
Posted by "Frank W. Zammetti" <fz...@omnytex.com>.
Wow... as far as a George Carlin sketch goes, that's grand!
"...arrogant little a**-licking toady bastards..."
Hehe, I gotta remember that one. I think "toady" makes it special :)
Frank
James Mitchell wrote:
>> Now, it's obviously a valid question that Struts developers should
>> answer.
>
> It _is_ an invalid question, that's why everyone is ignoring you.
>
>
> And now, I'd like to respond to you with your own words, from your own
> not-so-kind off list response to me (of course, censored because this is
> a public list)...
>
>
> ... this is sh** is getting personal now. Who the f*** do you think you
> are? You must be one ill-bred little f***.
>
> I don't have to give you any feedback on your lame-a** website. I don't
> have to give you anything. I don't owe you or any of your cohorts a
> f***ing thing.
>
> If you want to start maintaining human standards of behavior, the next
> time somebody gives you any feedback on your work, here's what you
> should say:
>
> "Thank you."
>
> I guess nobody ever taught you that. Do you know how bad I made you
> look there? I hope I completely humiliated you.
>
> If you f*** with me any more, I'll humiliate you some more.
>
> People like you are very very bad for open source. Some people's first
> experience of an open source project is something like Struts full of
> arrogant little a**-licking toady bastards like you.
>
> F*** you, you contemptible little sh**.
>
>
>
> Now that that's off my chest, I shall forever send your replies to
> /dev/null.
>
> Have a wonderful day.
>
>
> --
> James Mitchell
>
> P.S. "Thank you"
>
>
>
> On Mar 27, 2006, at 2:53 PM, Jonathan Revusky wrote:
>
>> Emmanouil Batsis wrote:
>>> Jonathan Revusky wrote:
>>>> Struts has also fallen further and further behind technically in its
>>>> space. (This has what has led to the Webwork merger so that the
>>>> "Struts umbrella" could offer something reasonably up-to-date.)
>>> [Note: This is not a reply to Jonathan personally]
>>
>> Yes, note that I am actually not the best qualified person to answer
>> this.
>>
>> Now, it's obviously a valid question that Struts developers should
>> answer. They decided to abandon work on Struts 1.x and bring Webwork
>> over here and work on that. So they really should be the ones to
>> answer your question. However, one gets the sense that they don't want
>> to answer such questions....
>>
>>> I keep seeing posts claiming Struts Action/Classic is technically old
>>> etc etc; is there a resource available summarizing how exactly this
>>> is true?
>>
>> It did not take me long using google to find the following page:
>>
>> http://wiki.opensymphony.com/display/WW/Comparison+to+Struts
>>
>> Of course, that list was surely worked up by the Webwork people and is
>> thus, not from an unbiased source. Still, I would suppose that the
>> points there are truthful.
>>
>> In any case, the fact is that the Struts developers have decided that
>> they prefer to move the Webwork code over here and work on that, so
>> they have accepted that Webwork is better. I think that has to be
>> taken at face value, since, you'd think that most people in their
>> situation would prefer to have a tooth extracted rather than accept
>> that their work is inferior. But that is what happened.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Jonathan Revusky
>> --
>> lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/
>> FreeMarker group blog, http://freemarker.blogspot.com/
>>
>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Manos
>>
>>
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>
>
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Re: maintaining human standards [was Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts
reached the saturation]
Posted by Dave Newton <ne...@pingsite.com>.
*rotflmao*
That's beautiful!
I kinda wish _I_ would have gotten that response, though :(
James Mitchell wrote:
> [ Jonathon's well-reasoned response ;]
You just brightened my day _considerably_!
Thanks :D
Dave
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maintaining human standards [was Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation]
Posted by James Mitchell <jm...@apache.org>.
> Now, it's obviously a valid question that Struts developers should
> answer.
It _is_ an invalid question, that's why everyone is ignoring you.
And now, I'd like to respond to you with your own words, from your
own not-so-kind off list response to me (of course, censored because
this is a public list)...
... this is sh** is getting personal now. Who the f*** do you think
you are? You must be one ill-bred little f***.
I don't have to give you any feedback on your lame-a** website. I
don't have to give you anything. I don't owe you or any of your
cohorts a f***ing thing.
If you want to start maintaining human standards of behavior, the
next time somebody gives you any feedback on your work, here's what
you should say:
"Thank you."
I guess nobody ever taught you that. Do you know how bad I made you
look there? I hope I completely humiliated you.
If you f*** with me any more, I'll humiliate you some more.
People like you are very very bad for open source. Some people's
first experience of an open source project is something like Struts
full of arrogant little a**-licking toady bastards like you.
F*** you, you contemptible little sh**.
Now that that's off my chest, I shall forever send your replies to /
dev/null.
Have a wonderful day.
--
James Mitchell
P.S. "Thank you"
On Mar 27, 2006, at 2:53 PM, Jonathan Revusky wrote:
> Emmanouil Batsis wrote:
>> Jonathan Revusky wrote:
>>> Struts has also fallen further and further behind technically in
>>> its space. (This has what has led to the Webwork merger so that
>>> the "Struts umbrella" could offer something reasonably up-to-date.)
>> [Note: This is not a reply to Jonathan personally]
>
> Yes, note that I am actually not the best qualified person to
> answer this.
>
> Now, it's obviously a valid question that Struts developers should
> answer. They decided to abandon work on Struts 1.x and bring
> Webwork over here and work on that. So they really should be the
> ones to answer your question. However, one gets the sense that they
> don't want to answer such questions....
>
>> I keep seeing posts claiming Struts Action/Classic is technically
>> old etc etc; is there a resource available summarizing how exactly
>> this is true?
>
> It did not take me long using google to find the following page:
>
> http://wiki.opensymphony.com/display/WW/Comparison+to+Struts
>
> Of course, that list was surely worked up by the Webwork people and
> is thus, not from an unbiased source. Still, I would suppose that
> the points there are truthful.
>
> In any case, the fact is that the Struts developers have decided
> that they prefer to move the Webwork code over here and work on
> that, so they have accepted that Webwork is better. I think that
> has to be taken at face value, since, you'd think that most people
> in their situation would prefer to have a tooth extracted rather
> than accept that their work is inferior. But that is what happened.
>
> Regards,
>
> Jonathan Revusky
> --
> lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/
> FreeMarker group blog, http://freemarker.blogspot.com/
>
>
>> Thanks,
>> Manos
>
>
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Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es>.
Emmanouil Batsis wrote:
> Jonathan Revusky wrote:
>
>> Struts has also fallen further and further behind technically in its
>> space. (This has what has led to the Webwork merger so that the
>> "Struts umbrella" could offer something reasonably up-to-date.)
>
>
>
> [Note: This is not a reply to Jonathan personally]
Yes, note that I am actually not the best qualified person to answer this.
Now, it's obviously a valid question that Struts developers should
answer. They decided to abandon work on Struts 1.x and bring Webwork
over here and work on that. So they really should be the ones to answer
your question. However, one gets the sense that they don't want to
answer such questions....
>
> I keep seeing posts claiming Struts Action/Classic is technically old
> etc etc; is there a resource available summarizing how exactly this is
> true?
It did not take me long using google to find the following page:
http://wiki.opensymphony.com/display/WW/Comparison+to+Struts
Of course, that list was surely worked up by the Webwork people and is
thus, not from an unbiased source. Still, I would suppose that the
points there are truthful.
In any case, the fact is that the Struts developers have decided that
they prefer to move the Webwork code over here and work on that, so they
have accepted that Webwork is better. I think that has to be taken at
face value, since, you'd think that most people in their situation would
prefer to have a tooth extracted rather than accept that their work is
inferior. But that is what happened.
Regards,
Jonathan Revusky
--
lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/
FreeMarker group blog, http://freemarker.blogspot.com/
>
> Thanks,
>
> Manos
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Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Emmanouil Batsis <Em...@eurodyn.com>.
Jonathan Revusky wrote:
> Struts has also fallen further and further behind technically in its
> space. (This has what has led to the Webwork merger so that the
> "Struts umbrella" could offer something reasonably up-to-date.)
[Note: This is not a reply to Jonathan personally]
I keep seeing posts claiming Struts Action/Classic is technically old
etc etc; is there a resource available summarizing how exactly this is true?
Thanks,
Manos
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Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es>.
Steve Raeburn wrote:
> Bottom line is that this is the way Apache works and it's not going to
> change.
Of course not.
Especially when, even when your practices fail, you can convince people
like the Webwork guys to give you code and mask your failure.
>
> I guess you *could* continue to argue that this method has been a
> failure for both Struts and Apache (and most other significant open
> source projects), but I think the evidence suggests otherwise.
I think it's much harder to become active in Struts than other open
source projects. Struts has also fallen further and further behind
technically in its space. (This has what has led to the Webwork merger
so that the "Struts umbrella" could offer something reasonably up-to-date.)
There is not absolute proof that there is causality between the above 2
things, the difficulty in getting involved, and the technical
stagnation, but I strongly suspect there is.
In any case, it is not a subject of legitimate debate at this point that
progress on the Struts framework stagnated. If you guys were doing
everything right, then what is your explanation for that?
Jonathan Revusky
--
lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/
FreeMarker group blog, http://freemarker.blogspot.com/
>
> Steve
>
> Jonathan Revusky wrote:
>
>> Steve Raeburn wrote:
>>
>>> I have an idea. Why don't we publish the source code to Struts so
>>> that absolutely anyone can contribute to the project. You are right
>>> that we'll need a review process for all those contributions. So why
>>> don't we require all incoming code to be reviewed by at least one
>>> experienced developer before it is added to the code base. After a
>>> while, developers will earn a level of trust and we can relax the
>>> review requirement to only happen after the code is updated.
>>
>>
>> The problem with that proposal is that it sounds like your current
>> practice. The current practice has already been tested and not
>> produced good results. You have fallen further and further behind
>> other competing projects and that is why it became necessary to bring
>> in Webwork (heretofore a competitor) so that you could have something
>> reasonably up-to-date to offer people.
>>
>> To continue with the same practices and expect radically different
>> results does not seem rational. It is encouraging that you seem to see
>> that there is a problem and are making a proposal. However, I think
>> your proposal would have to actually involve a change of some sort.
>>
>> The one I suggested was drastically lowering the barriers to letting
>> people directly commit code to the repository. To many people, this
>> sounds very radical. People have suggested that this would lead to all
>> kinds of problems. However, that can be put to an empirical test.
>> Given the failure of your current policies, it is not as if you have
>> so much to lose.
>>
>>>
>>> Thanks for the advice. We should implement this new process right away.
>>
>>
>> Tell me, does the same old wine in a new bottle taste any different?
>>
>> Jonathan Revusky
>> --
>> lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/
>> FreeMarker group blog, http://freemarker.blogspot.com/
>>
>>>
>>> Steve
>>>
>>> Jonathan Revusky wrote:
>>>
>>>> Dave Newton wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Dakota Jack wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I flat don't believe this. Who, what, where, when, etc?
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> This isn't me (although I did fix an essentially identical bug in an
>>>>> internal webapp at Morgan Stanley (who), an Action instance variable
>>>>> (what), in Morristown (where), spring 2004 (when), because they
>>>>> paid me
>>>>> (why), by putting the data into a synchronized map (how) although I
>>>>> believe eventually they changed the structure of the app to eliminate
>>>>> the need for that (it was a quick fix for an emergency problem: "this
>>>>> works almost all the time, but under load we occasionally get
>>>>> corrupted
>>>>> data"-a-thon).
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.thedailywtf.com/
>>>>>
>>>>> Today's is "the cost of static."
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I just visited the above link and read the article and I don't see
>>>> how this can be presented as evidence against a more open
>>>> collaborative model. Basically it's the story of a bug. Somebody
>>>> made a mistake. People will make mistakes regardless. Also, the bug
>>>> occurred, as far as I can see, in a closed source commercial
>>>> codebase, so it's not clear to me how this is relevant at all.
>>>>
>>>> I have said repeatedly at this point that I assume that code
>>>> committed by newbie committers would be reviewed. In principle, a
>>>> bug like the one described in that article would be caught at that
>>>> point. But another point about this is that having more people in
>>>> the code could decrease the mean life expectancy of such bugs
>>>> because of the phenomenon of more eyeballs.
>>>>
>>>> Jonathan Revusky
>>>> --
>>>> lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Anybody who thinks anyone should have commit access... feel free to
>>>>> walk
>>>>> around tdwtf, marvel, and pat yourself on the back for being better
>>>>> than
>>>>> some of the stories there (I hope :)
>>>>>
>>>>> Dave
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
>>>>
>>>>
>>
>>
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Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Steve Raeburn <sr...@gmail.com>.
Bottom line is that this is the way Apache works and it's not going to
change.
I guess you *could* continue to argue that this method has been a
failure for both Struts and Apache (and most other significant open
source projects), but I think the evidence suggests otherwise.
Steve
Jonathan Revusky wrote:
> Steve Raeburn wrote:
>> I have an idea. Why don't we publish the source code to Struts so
>> that absolutely anyone can contribute to the project. You are right
>> that we'll need a review process for all those contributions. So why
>> don't we require all incoming code to be reviewed by at least one
>> experienced developer before it is added to the code base. After a
>> while, developers will earn a level of trust and we can relax the
>> review requirement to only happen after the code is updated.
>
> The problem with that proposal is that it sounds like your current
> practice. The current practice has already been tested and not
> produced good results. You have fallen further and further behind
> other competing projects and that is why it became necessary to bring
> in Webwork (heretofore a competitor) so that you could have something
> reasonably up-to-date to offer people.
>
> To continue with the same practices and expect radically different
> results does not seem rational. It is encouraging that you seem to see
> that there is a problem and are making a proposal. However, I think
> your proposal would have to actually involve a change of some sort.
>
> The one I suggested was drastically lowering the barriers to letting
> people directly commit code to the repository. To many people, this
> sounds very radical. People have suggested that this would lead to all
> kinds of problems. However, that can be put to an empirical test.
> Given the failure of your current policies, it is not as if you have
> so much to lose.
>
>>
>> Thanks for the advice. We should implement this new process right away.
>
> Tell me, does the same old wine in a new bottle taste any different?
>
> Jonathan Revusky
> --
> lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/
> FreeMarker group blog, http://freemarker.blogspot.com/
>
>>
>> Steve
>>
>> Jonathan Revusky wrote:
>>
>>> Dave Newton wrote:
>>>
>>>> Dakota Jack wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I flat don't believe this. Who, what, where, when, etc?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> This isn't me (although I did fix an essentially identical bug in an
>>>> internal webapp at Morgan Stanley (who), an Action instance variable
>>>> (what), in Morristown (where), spring 2004 (when), because they
>>>> paid me
>>>> (why), by putting the data into a synchronized map (how) although I
>>>> believe eventually they changed the structure of the app to eliminate
>>>> the need for that (it was a quick fix for an emergency problem: "this
>>>> works almost all the time, but under load we occasionally get
>>>> corrupted
>>>> data"-a-thon).
>>>>
>>>> http://www.thedailywtf.com/
>>>>
>>>> Today's is "the cost of static."
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I just visited the above link and read the article and I don't see
>>> how this can be presented as evidence against a more open
>>> collaborative model. Basically it's the story of a bug. Somebody
>>> made a mistake. People will make mistakes regardless. Also, the bug
>>> occurred, as far as I can see, in a closed source commercial
>>> codebase, so it's not clear to me how this is relevant at all.
>>>
>>> I have said repeatedly at this point that I assume that code
>>> committed by newbie committers would be reviewed. In principle, a
>>> bug like the one described in that article would be caught at that
>>> point. But another point about this is that having more people in
>>> the code could decrease the mean life expectancy of such bugs
>>> because of the phenomenon of more eyeballs.
>>>
>>> Jonathan Revusky
>>> --
>>> lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Anybody who thinks anyone should have commit access... feel free to
>>>> walk
>>>> around tdwtf, marvel, and pat yourself on the back for being better
>>>> than
>>>> some of the stories there (I hope :)
>>>>
>>>> Dave
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>>> For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
>>>
>>>
>
>
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Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es>.
Steve Raeburn wrote:
> I have an idea. Why don't we publish the source code to Struts so that
> absolutely anyone can contribute to the project. You are right that
> we'll need a review process for all those contributions. So why don't we
> require all incoming code to be reviewed by at least one experienced
> developer before it is added to the code base. After a while, developers
> will earn a level of trust and we can relax the review requirement to
> only happen after the code is updated.
The problem with that proposal is that it sounds like your current
practice. The current practice has already been tested and not produced
good results. You have fallen further and further behind other competing
projects and that is why it became necessary to bring in Webwork
(heretofore a competitor) so that you could have something reasonably
up-to-date to offer people.
To continue with the same practices and expect radically different
results does not seem rational. It is encouraging that you seem to see
that there is a problem and are making a proposal. However, I think your
proposal would have to actually involve a change of some sort.
The one I suggested was drastically lowering the barriers to letting
people directly commit code to the repository. To many people, this
sounds very radical. People have suggested that this would lead to all
kinds of problems. However, that can be put to an empirical test. Given
the failure of your current policies, it is not as if you have so much
to lose.
>
> Thanks for the advice. We should implement this new process right away.
Tell me, does the same old wine in a new bottle taste any different?
Jonathan Revusky
--
lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/
FreeMarker group blog, http://freemarker.blogspot.com/
>
> Steve
>
> Jonathan Revusky wrote:
>
>> Dave Newton wrote:
>>
>>> Dakota Jack wrote:
>>>
>>>> I flat don't believe this. Who, what, where, when, etc?
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> This isn't me (although I did fix an essentially identical bug in an
>>> internal webapp at Morgan Stanley (who), an Action instance variable
>>> (what), in Morristown (where), spring 2004 (when), because they paid me
>>> (why), by putting the data into a synchronized map (how) although I
>>> believe eventually they changed the structure of the app to eliminate
>>> the need for that (it was a quick fix for an emergency problem: "this
>>> works almost all the time, but under load we occasionally get corrupted
>>> data"-a-thon).
>>>
>>> http://www.thedailywtf.com/
>>>
>>> Today's is "the cost of static."
>>
>>
>>
>> I just visited the above link and read the article and I don't see how
>> this can be presented as evidence against a more open collaborative
>> model. Basically it's the story of a bug. Somebody made a mistake.
>> People will make mistakes regardless. Also, the bug occurred, as far
>> as I can see, in a closed source commercial codebase, so it's not
>> clear to me how this is relevant at all.
>>
>> I have said repeatedly at this point that I assume that code committed
>> by newbie committers would be reviewed. In principle, a bug like the
>> one described in that article would be caught at that point. But
>> another point about this is that having more people in the code could
>> decrease the mean life expectancy of such bugs because of the
>> phenomenon of more eyeballs.
>>
>> Jonathan Revusky
>> --
>> lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/
>>
>>>
>>> Anybody who thinks anyone should have commit access... feel free to walk
>>> around tdwtf, marvel, and pat yourself on the back for being better than
>>> some of the stories there (I hope :)
>>>
>>> Dave
>>
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>>
>>
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Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Steve Raeburn <sr...@gmail.com>.
I have an idea. Why don't we publish the source code to Struts so that
absolutely anyone can contribute to the project. You are right that
we'll need a review process for all those contributions. So why don't we
require all incoming code to be reviewed by at least one experienced
developer before it is added to the code base. After a while, developers
will earn a level of trust and we can relax the review requirement to
only happen after the code is updated.
Thanks for the advice. We should implement this new process right away.
Steve
Jonathan Revusky wrote:
> Dave Newton wrote:
>> Dakota Jack wrote:
>>
>>> I flat don't believe this. Who, what, where, when, etc?
>>>
>>
>>
>> This isn't me (although I did fix an essentially identical bug in an
>> internal webapp at Morgan Stanley (who), an Action instance variable
>> (what), in Morristown (where), spring 2004 (when), because they paid me
>> (why), by putting the data into a synchronized map (how) although I
>> believe eventually they changed the structure of the app to eliminate
>> the need for that (it was a quick fix for an emergency problem: "this
>> works almost all the time, but under load we occasionally get corrupted
>> data"-a-thon).
>>
>> http://www.thedailywtf.com/
>>
>> Today's is "the cost of static."
>
>
> I just visited the above link and read the article and I don't see how
> this can be presented as evidence against a more open collaborative
> model. Basically it's the story of a bug. Somebody made a mistake.
> People will make mistakes regardless. Also, the bug occurred, as far
> as I can see, in a closed source commercial codebase, so it's not
> clear to me how this is relevant at all.
>
> I have said repeatedly at this point that I assume that code committed
> by newbie committers would be reviewed. In principle, a bug like the
> one described in that article would be caught at that point. But
> another point about this is that having more people in the code could
> decrease the mean life expectancy of such bugs because of the
> phenomenon of more eyeballs.
>
> Jonathan Revusky
> --
> lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/
>
>>
>> Anybody who thinks anyone should have commit access... feel free to walk
>> around tdwtf, marvel, and pat yourself on the back for being better than
>> some of the stories there (I hope :)
>>
>> Dave
>
>
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>
>
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Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Dave Newton <ne...@pingsite.com>.
Jonathan Revusky wrote:
> When people do start using their commit privileges they are usually
> quite timid about it initially and initiate discussion on your list
> prior to doing anything remotely controversial. People typically start
> off doing very small localized things. And these things are not very
> time consuming for the more established people on the team to review.
>
> One thing that would be possible is to encourage people to get their
> legs by doing things like working on unit tests and javadoc comments
> and so on. Most projects, unfortunately, have too little of both of
> those things and letting people in to initially work on that is quite
> low risk.
>
> That would provide a way for poeople to gradually get into the swing
> of things. I think that any people managing an open source project
> have to be thinking about how to get new blood into the project.
Yep; agreed.
>>> It's not just working for me. It's working for a lot of people. A lot
>>> of people use FreeMarker, you know.
>> That's a pretty small sample size, but good :)
> Be that as it may, apparently it's infinitely greater than your
> experience running open source projects.
Hmm, I suppose (although 0 times anything is still 0) but I would hazard
a guess that several of the projects I _have_ run have had more
committers than many open-source projects (when you're dealing with a
company with 50K employees of which somewhere between 5-10% are
developers, you naturally end up with a lot of folks :)
> Anyway, this is getting sterile. I've made my point. It is my
> considered view that this idea that the ability to commit code is
> something that needs to be this zealously guarded is not well founded.
If you're adding the word "zealously" I agree.
> Probably a project like Struts would benefit from drastically lowering
> the bar to becoming a committer.
Also partially agree depending on how "drastic" it would be.
> Actually, it is probable that being politically correct (less likely
> to disagree with the current clique) is a greater factor in becoming a
> committer than coding prowess is.
I'd argue that, but my forehead is starting to leave little red spoogy
marks so I won't ;)
Dave
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Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es>.
Dave Newton wrote:
> Jonathan Revusky wrote:
<snip>
>
> I have no publicly-accessible open-source projects. If I did, I would
> not give commit access to anybody that asked for it, because I do not
> have the time to review the contributions of others and do not trust J.
> Random Coder enough to assume that they'll do the Right Thing, because
> in general, most people aren't very good programmers.
The whole idea that, when you give somebody commit privileges, that they
just go beserk committing all kinds of code of questionable quality --
this is just not something that really happens. I recognize that it
could happen. Also it could happen that you give commit privileges to
someone who is outright malicious. However, the latter would be so
infrequent really that, IMO, it's not an issue. If a wandering serial
saboteur -- the Ted Bundy of open source coding, if you will -- happens
to get involved in your project, well, I would attribute that to
inordinate bad luck, maybe like walking down the street and getting
struck by lightning. Possible, but so unlikely that it does not
condition your decision making.
What usually happens is that people sound all enthusiastic about doing
stuff and then, when they have the commit access, they simply do
nothing. That is what happens easily the vast majority of times. People
overestimate the time they can devote to something. They underestimate
the investment that it is to really get their heads around the code.
When people do start using their commit privileges they are usually
quite timid about it initially and initiate discussion on your list
prior to doing anything remotely controversial. People typically start
off doing very small localized things. And these things are not very
time consuming for the more established people on the team to review.
One thing that would be possible is to encourage people to get their
legs by doing things like working on unit tests and javadoc comments and
so on. Most projects, unfortunately, have too little of both of those
things and letting people in to initially work on that is quite low risk.
That would provide a way for poeople to gradually get into the swing of
things. I think that any people managing an open source project have to
be thinking about how to get new blood into the project.
>
> Again, YMMV, and hopefully has!
>
>
>>>If you have, that's great, and I'm glad it's working for you, and I
>>>hope it continues to.
>>
>>It's not just working for me. It's working for a lot of people. A lot
>>of people use FreeMarker, you know.
>
>
> That's a pretty small sample size, but good :)
Be that as it may, apparently it's infinitely greater than your
experience running open source projects.
Anyway, this is getting sterile. I've made my point. It is my considered
view that this idea that the ability to commit code is something that
needs to be this zealously guarded is not well founded.
Probably a project like Struts would benefit from drastically lowering
the bar to becoming a committer.
The problem is that they've created this political structure where
they've defined committers as people with political power and
non-committers as people with no political power and so it has to do
with a certain clique retaining their power. It has basically nothing to
do with guarding the quality of the code.
Actually, it is probable that being politically correct (less likely to
disagree with the current clique) is a greater factor in becoming a
committer than coding prowess is.
Regards,
Jonathan Revusky
--
lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/
FreeMarker group blog, http://freemarker.blogspot.com/
>
> Dave
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Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Dave Newton <ne...@pingsite.com>.
Jonathan Revusky wrote:
> No, they're not insofar as code is code. However, there are huge
> differences in the motivations and in the overall sociology or
> dynamics of the situation though. In the open-source case, nobody is
> working on some project that they find uninteresting because their boss
> assigned them to that. If you're not interested, you simply don't
> commit code, good or bad.
Generally that's probably true, but I do know people who have been
assigned to open-source projects by their managers; their own personal
interest wasn't the motivator.
> People who volunteer to work on open source are the kinds of people
> who code for the joy of coding.
Hopefully that's generally true, but it's certainly not an absolute.
And enjoying coding is quite different from being able to code well.
>> I know _I_ don't have the time to review each and every patch that comes
>> in to a repo.
> Well, are you suggesting that people should be donating code via the
> bug tracker or wherever and nobody is necessarily reviewing it?
>
> If the code has to be reviewed one way or the other, it is surely the
> same amount of work.
The code review time itself might be the same, but if unreviewed code is
commited the amount of work necessary may increase.
Also note that my objections to unfettered access to the repo (at least
partially) go away if there aren't many committers and a low number of
commits; less to deal with.
But the bottom line is that I have a lot of stuff going on in my life
and simply don't have the time to devote to making sure other people
don't break my toys.
>> I'm still not going to give commit access to anybody that asks for it
>> because _I_ haven't found that it works well.
> I asked you before when you had actually tried this. I mean, in an
> open-source context. As I point out above, the company context is
> quite different.
>
> So I don't think you answered my question.
I have no publicly-accessible open-source projects. If I did, I would
not give commit access to anybody that asked for it, because I do not
have the time to review the contributions of others and do not trust J.
Random Coder enough to assume that they'll do the Right Thing, because
in general, most people aren't very good programmers.
Again, YMMV, and hopefully has!
>> If you have, that's great, and I'm glad it's working for you, and I
>> hope it continues to.
> It's not just working for me. It's working for a lot of people. A lot
> of people use FreeMarker, you know.
That's a pretty small sample size, but good :)
Dave
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Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es>.
Dave Newton wrote:
> Jonathan Revusky wrote:
>
>>I just visited the above link and read the article and I don't see how
>>this can be presented as evidence against a more open collaborative
>>model. Basically it's the story of a bug. Somebody made a mistake.
>>People will make mistakes regardless.
>
>
> Yep.
>
> Guess what, though: inexperienced coders make more.
>
>
>>Also, the bug occurred, as far as I can see, in a closed source
>>commercial codebase, so it's not clear to me how this is relevant at all.
>
>
> Yeah, because closed-source commercial codebases are completely
> different from open-source codebases...
No, they're not insofar as code is code. However, there are huge
differences in the motivations and in the overall sociology or dynamics
of the situation though. In the open-source case, nobody is
working on some project that they find uninteresting because their boss
assigned them to that. If you're not interested, you simply don't commit
code, good or bad.
People who volunteer to work on open source are the kinds of people who
code for the joy of coding. In companies there are a lot of quite
unmotivated people sort of going through the motions.
Extrapolating the problems you've had in companies to an open source
project is quite tenuous.
>
> Er...
>
>
>>I have said repeatedly at this point that I assume that code committed
>>by newbie committers would be reviewed. In principle, a bug like the
>>one described in that article would be caught at that point.
>
>
> I know _I_ don't have the time to review each and every patch that comes
> in to a repo.
Well, are you suggesting that people should be donating code via the bug
tracker or wherever and nobody is necessarily reviewing it?
If the code has to be reviewed one way or the other, it is surely the
same amount of work.
<snip>
>
> I'm still not going to give commit access to anybody that asks for it
> because _I_ haven't found that it works well.
I asked you before when you had actually tried this. I mean, in an
open-source context. As I point out above, the company context is quite
different.
So I don't think you answered my question.
>
> If you have, that's great,
> and I'm glad it's working for you, and I hope it continues to.
It's not just working for me. It's working for a lot of people. A lot of
people use FreeMarker, you know.
Jonathan Revusky
--
lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/
>
> Dave
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Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Dave Newton <ne...@pingsite.com>.
Jonathan Revusky wrote:
> I just visited the above link and read the article and I don't see how
> this can be presented as evidence against a more open collaborative
> model. Basically it's the story of a bug. Somebody made a mistake.
> People will make mistakes regardless.
Yep.
Guess what, though: inexperienced coders make more.
> Also, the bug occurred, as far as I can see, in a closed source
> commercial codebase, so it's not clear to me how this is relevant at all.
Yeah, because closed-source commercial codebases are completely
different from open-source codebases...
Er...
> I have said repeatedly at this point that I assume that code committed
> by newbie committers would be reviewed. In principle, a bug like the
> one described in that article would be caught at that point.
I know _I_ don't have the time to review each and every patch that comes
in to a repo. Heck, I barely have had time to deal with the commits from
the relatively smaller number of developers I've dealt with on previous
projects. That's one of the bugaboos with some open-source projects:
they started, as they say, as a scratch, then got released. This means
that not every project will have enough knowledgeable people available
enough of the time to keep up with code quality issues.
Of course it's not impossible, but it can be difficult sometimes.
> But another point about this is that having more people in the code
> could decrease the mean life expectancy of such bugs because of the
> phenomenon of more eyeballs.
We agree on this, although it's definitely not a guarantee.
Automated testing helps a lot, especially if ppl. run the tests on their
own repos _before_ committing but I haven't found that this is always
the case. It's gotten better over the years as testing tools have
improved and build processes have become more automated and/or
integrated into whichever dev environment they're using.
I'm still not going to give commit access to anybody that asks for it
because _I_ haven't found that it works well. If you have, that's great,
and I'm glad it's working for you, and I hope it continues to.
Dave
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Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es>.
Dave Newton wrote:
> Dakota Jack wrote:
>
>>I flat don't believe this. Who, what, where, when, etc?
>>
>
>
> This isn't me (although I did fix an essentially identical bug in an
> internal webapp at Morgan Stanley (who), an Action instance variable
> (what), in Morristown (where), spring 2004 (when), because they paid me
> (why), by putting the data into a synchronized map (how) although I
> believe eventually they changed the structure of the app to eliminate
> the need for that (it was a quick fix for an emergency problem: "this
> works almost all the time, but under load we occasionally get corrupted
> data"-a-thon).
>
> http://www.thedailywtf.com/
>
> Today's is "the cost of static."
I just visited the above link and read the article and I don't see how
this can be presented as evidence against a more open collaborative
model. Basically it's the story of a bug. Somebody made a mistake.
People will make mistakes regardless. Also, the bug occurred, as far as
I can see, in a closed source commercial codebase, so it's not clear to
me how this is relevant at all.
I have said repeatedly at this point that I assume that code committed
by newbie committers would be reviewed. In principle, a bug like the one
described in that article would be caught at that point. But another
point about this is that having more people in the code could decrease
the mean life expectancy of such bugs because of the phenomenon of more
eyeballs.
Jonathan Revusky
--
lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/
>
> Anybody who thinks anyone should have commit access... feel free to walk
> around tdwtf, marvel, and pat yourself on the back for being better than
> some of the stories there (I hope :)
>
> Dave
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Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Dave Newton <ne...@pingsite.com>.
Dakota Jack wrote:
> I flat don't believe this. Who, what, where, when, etc?
>
This isn't me (although I did fix an essentially identical bug in an
internal webapp at Morgan Stanley (who), an Action instance variable
(what), in Morristown (where), spring 2004 (when), because they paid me
(why), by putting the data into a synchronized map (how) although I
believe eventually they changed the structure of the app to eliminate
the need for that (it was a quick fix for an emergency problem: "this
works almost all the time, but under load we occasionally get corrupted
data"-a-thon).
http://www.thedailywtf.com/
Today's is "the cost of static."
Anybody who thinks anyone should have commit access... feel free to walk
around tdwtf, marvel, and pat yourself on the back for being better than
some of the stories there (I hope :)
Dave
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Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Dakota Jack <da...@gmail.com>.
I flat don't believe this. Who, what, where, when, etc?
On 3/23/06, Dave Newton <ne...@pingsite.com> wrote:
>
> Jonathan Revusky wrote:
> > I have no recollection of having wronged you in any specific way.
>
> You sprayed then, you spray now. No change. "They" told me not to feed
> the trolls then, they tell me not to feed the trolls now.
>
> >> I really don't believe we're so far apart on this: I think the bar for
> >> commiting to Struts is too high as well. At the same time, I would
> >> definitely _not_ give commit rights to anybody that asked for them, and
> >> the project would be better off for it.
> > How do you know for sure? Has this hypothesis ever been tested?
>
> Not on Struts, as I have essentially zero say on how it's run.
>
> But on other projects, yes: opening projects has, in my experience, led
> to lower quality and/or too much overhead in keeping the quality high.
> YMMV, of course, and hopefully other folks haven't had to deal with the
> messes I have--and those were messes generally internal to a company
> (albeit pretty large ones).
>
> Mind you I don't claim that having easier access to commit rights is a
> bad idea; I just think it has to be monitored more closely than I've had
> time to deal with in the past.
>
> Dave
>
>
>
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>
>
--
"You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back."
~Dakota Jack~
Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Dave Newton <ne...@pingsite.com>.
Jonathan Revusky wrote:
> I have no recollection of having wronged you in any specific way.
You sprayed then, you spray now. No change. "They" told me not to feed
the trolls then, they tell me not to feed the trolls now.
>> I really don't believe we're so far apart on this: I think the bar for
>> commiting to Struts is too high as well. At the same time, I would
>> definitely _not_ give commit rights to anybody that asked for them, and
>> the project would be better off for it.
> How do you know for sure? Has this hypothesis ever been tested?
Not on Struts, as I have essentially zero say on how it's run.
But on other projects, yes: opening projects has, in my experience, led
to lower quality and/or too much overhead in keeping the quality high.
YMMV, of course, and hopefully other folks haven't had to deal with the
messes I have--and those were messes generally internal to a company
(albeit pretty large ones).
Mind you I don't claim that having easier access to commit rights is a
bad idea; I just think it has to be monitored more closely than I've had
time to deal with in the past.
Dave
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Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es>.
Dave Newton wrote:
> Jonathan Revusky wrote:
>
>>I already am spending too much time on this [...]
>
>
> Agreed.
>
>
>>2. I know that there is significant animosity towards me here [...]
>
>
> My animosity towards you is from years ago, actually;
I remember that vaguely, yes. Still feeling animosity over that, eh?
You think I wronged you in some way then, I guess. What precisely is
your grievance, Dave? I guess I could go look it up. I have no
recollection of having wronged you in any specific way.
But anyway, you brought it up. What precisely is your grievance against
me from back when? I'm curious, and actually, I would imagine that other
people reading this are mildly curious too.
> I won't speak for
> anybody else.
Well, you seem to have learned your lesson on that then. :-)
>
>
>>>From whence???? From whence???? Is the Shakespearean festival nigh?
>
>
> Ooo! A zinger! Forsooth!
>
>
>>It's just mind-boggling to be trying to answer this kind of question
>>really....
>
>
> I imagine that it is, for you... trying to imagine how an open-source
> project that was developed for somebody else's use might not be
> obligated to listen to anybody else.
Well, maybe not. But if that is the case it would also seem to mean that
all this stuff about "building community" that Ted Husted keeps pointing
to is a bunch of empty posturing.
>
>
>>>It appears as though you believe that if someone is willing and able to
>>>pitch in that they should have commit rights, which is not really the
>>>same thing.
>>
>>As a practical matter, it basically means giving people commit rights.
>>Trying to let people work on stuff while keeping them at arm's length
>>just is unlikely to work for long. If you're going to let someone do
>>some work, yeah, you have to open the door and let them in.
>
>
> I really don't believe we're so far apart on this: I think the bar for
> commiting to Struts is too high as well. At the same time, I would
> definitely _not_ give commit rights to anybody that asked for them, and
> the project would be better off for it.
How do you know for sure? Has this hypothesis ever been tested?
> Even in the limited scope of this mailing list I have seen some pretty
> frightening code--I would _not_ want the authors of said code to be able
> to inject similar code into the project, and I would _not_ want to have
> to surf the repository regularly to remove or fix it.
You don't have to regularly "surf" the repository. There is a
disposition that all these projects use where people on the dev list get
email notifications of commits. If you are a more established team
member person who has kind of "taken ownership" of a certain part of the
code and some new kid on the block commits some change there, you would
tend to review it carefully.
There is no need to be continually surfing the repository on a regular
basis to check for whether bad code was committed meanwhile. You get
these commit notifications and you can look through them.
Jonathan Revusky
--
lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/
>
>
>>At the moment, I think it is mostly because this whole dysfunctional
>>scene exerts a morbid fascination on me. It's actually funny in a very
>>dark humor sort of way, you know.
>
>
> On this we are in perfect agreement :)
>
> Dave
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Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Dave Newton <ne...@pingsite.com>.
Jonathan Revusky wrote:
> I already am spending too much time on this [...]
Agreed.
> 2. I know that there is significant animosity towards me here [...]
My animosity towards you is from years ago, actually; I won't speak for
anybody else.
> From whence???? From whence???? Is the Shakespearean festival nigh?
Ooo! A zinger! Forsooth!
> It's just mind-boggling to be trying to answer this kind of question
> really....
I imagine that it is, for you... trying to imagine how an open-source
project that was developed for somebody else's use might not be
obligated to listen to anybody else.
>> It appears as though you believe that if someone is willing and able to
>> pitch in that they should have commit rights, which is not really the
>> same thing.
> As a practical matter, it basically means giving people commit rights.
> Trying to let people work on stuff while keeping them at arm's length
> just is unlikely to work for long. If you're going to let someone do
> some work, yeah, you have to open the door and let them in.
I really don't believe we're so far apart on this: I think the bar for
commiting to Struts is too high as well. At the same time, I would
definitely _not_ give commit rights to anybody that asked for them, and
the project would be better off for it.
Even in the limited scope of this mailing list I have seen some pretty
frightening code--I would _not_ want the authors of said code to be able
to inject similar code into the project, and I would _not_ want to have
to surf the repository regularly to remove or fix it.
> At the moment, I think it is mostly because this whole dysfunctional
> scene exerts a morbid fascination on me. It's actually funny in a very
> dark humor sort of way, you know.
On this we are in perfect agreement :)
Dave
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Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es>.
Dave Newton wrote:
> Jonathan Revusky wrote:
>
>>As regards insults, there is a difference of perspective here. My own
>>feeling is that in all of my posts I have exercised a great degree of
>>self-restraint.
>
>
> Unless you count being able to state your view concisely.
There are 2 basic reasons that my messages tend to be longer than they
might be otherwise.
1. It's actually more time consuming to write a shorter message. At
least if the message is to make the same points. I already am spending
too much time on this, so I am not going to spend 2 or 3 times as much
time to edit down the messages.
2. I know that there is significant animosity towards me here and if I
leave any gap for somebody sink their teeth into, they will. So I build
up my arguments in a more painstaking, detailed way than I would otherwise.
>
>
>>[...] people literally claim that the managers of the project do not
>>have to listen to criticism.
>
>
> They don't! Perhaps they _should_ (and, quite frankly, I believe they
> _do_, but I don't expect them to _act_ on it).
>
> I still do not understand from whence this obligation comes.
From whence???? From whence???? Is the Shakespearean festival nigh?
Oh, you mean you don't understand where this obligation comes from.
I read this and it just blows me away. I guess you have a point of
sorts. Nobody explicitly mentions an obligation to behave according to
the dictates of common sense.
Suppose the PMC decided that their goal was actually to make Struts
worse -- instead of eliminating bugs, to introduce new ones.
You could similarly ask "from whence the obligation comes" to try to
make the software better rather than worse. But nobody has a conversatin
about that because it's just crazy, right? Everybody just figures that
if you have an ongoing development effort, it is to make the thing
better, not worse. For example, I bet that none of the "How ASF works"
sorts of pages that Ted Husted might point you to bother to explicitly
say that the point of ongoing development is to make the product better
rather than worse.
It's just a given.
Similarly, all this stuff on the apache.org pages about community, that
development is "community-based" or whatever. Well what does that mean,
for people not to listen to one another? I mean, aren't there things
that one just takes as a given?
It's just mind-boggling to be trying to answer this kind of question
really....
>
>
>>I strongly believe that a guiding principle the basic idea of open
>>source is that if someone is willing and able to pitch in, they should
>>have the chance to do so.
>
>
> It appears as though you believe that if someone is willing and able to
> pitch in that they should have commit rights, which is not really the
> same thing.
As a practical matter, it basically means giving people commit rights.
Trying to let people work on stuff while keeping them at arm's length
just is unlikely to work for long. If you're going to let someone do
some work, yeah, you have to open the door and let them in.
>
>>>Jonathan only arrived in this community part way through this thread,
>>>hopefully he'll get bored and leave soon.
>>
>>Well, the truth is that hanging around here is not a very enriching
>>experience.
>
>
> So... um... why are you still here?
At the moment, I think it is mostly because this whole dysfunctional
scene exerts a morbid fascination on me. It's actually funny in a very
dark humor sort of way, you know.
Regards,
Jonathan Revusky
--
lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/
FreeMarker group blog, http://freemarker.blogspot.com/
>
> Dave
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Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Dave Newton <ne...@pingsite.com>.
Jonathan Revusky wrote:
> As regards insults, there is a difference of perspective here. My own
> feeling is that in all of my posts I have exercised a great degree of
> self-restraint.
Unless you count being able to state your view concisely.
> [...] people literally claim that the managers of the project do not
> have to listen to criticism.
They don't! Perhaps they _should_ (and, quite frankly, I believe they
_do_, but I don't expect them to _act_ on it).
I still do not understand from whence this obligation comes.
> I strongly believe that a guiding principle the basic idea of open
> source is that if someone is willing and able to pitch in, they should
> have the chance to do so.
It appears as though you believe that if someone is willing and able to
pitch in that they should have commit rights, which is not really the
same thing.
>> Jonathan only arrived in this community part way through this thread,
>> hopefully he'll get bored and leave soon.
> Well, the truth is that hanging around here is not a very enriching
> experience.
So... um... why are you still here?
Dave
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Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es>.
Niall Pemberton wrote:
> On 3/23/06, Henri Yandell <fl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>Struts is a cool community. The users are actively involved, in terms
>>of answering and asking; people obviously care about the community -
>>as shown by both your and Dakota's questions and by the desire of the
>>committers to work to keep things together; and there's an active
>>future happening plus legacy being actively maintained by both
>>contributors and committers.
>
>
> I don't believe this is true - from what I see Jonathan Revusky's only
> desire is to see the demise of Apache -
Very good, Niall. Since you're so good at reading my mind, could you
tell me how I plan to bring this about?
> he has no interest in Struts
> or Web Frameworks at all, except if they use/support his Freemarker
> templating tool.
Well, to an increasing extent, they basically all do. The default
presentation technology in Webwork a.k.a. Struts Action 2 is in fact
FreeMarker. FreeMarker is also increasingly popular in Spring-land.
In general, I am interested in the web application space. It probably is
true that I am largely concerned with things as they relate to FreeMarker.
> Dakota on the other hand is a different matter - he
> at least has been part of this community for a long time, although I
> understood he now uses Spring MVC rather than Struts (I'm sure if I
> have this wrong he will correct/clarify this). From what I see though,
> neither is actually interested in Struts - except in a negative way.
> The disappointing thing from my perspective is that the valid points
> they make are lost in the noise of the insults and FUD they spread.
As regards insults, there is a difference of perspective here. My own
feeling is that in all of my posts I have exercised a great degree of
self-restraint. If I were to express forthrightly in modern English
vernacular what I think of some of the people here, it would be....
rather ugly.
You have to understand that I am somebody who really believes that a
core idea in open-source is that people who are willing and able to
contribute should be allowed to do so. This whole line that you have to
have some self-selected elite who keep everybody else's grubby unwashed
hands off the code is to me something completely laughable and basically
contemptible.
You have parts of the conversation where people literally claim that the
managers of the project do not have to listen to criticism. I responded
to this individual _respectfully_ I think. I suggested respectfully that
he reconsider this viewpoint. I could have responded with much less
self-restraint.
As regards FUD, if I have said anything false, then address it.
Otherwise, I think you should retract the statement, Niall.
I strongly believe that a guiding principle the basic idea of open
source is that if someone is willing and able to pitch in, they should
have the chance to do so.
Now, any approach should still be judged on results. What I consider
amazing is that when this closed club approach has clearly failed, that
you have had to accept that this community's work was not competitive
with Webwork, you guys still talk with this level of arrogance, and
still assert that the closed club approach is the right way.
You guys talk so much about meritocracy but do not accept the logic and
structure of meritocracy in any real way. If you want to be arrogant,
win the competition, produce the better framework. If you lose the
competition, you have to be humble and consider your mistakes.
> Jonathan only arrived in this community part way through this thread,
> hopefully he'll get bored and leave soon.
Well, the truth is that hanging around here is not a very enriching
experience.
Now, concretely, I just responded to Henri Yandell's question about the
website. Would you prefer that I refrain from other similar comments? If
you request that I refrain from further such criticism, I will respect
your request.
Regards,
Jonathan Revusky
--
lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/
FreeMarker group blog, http://freemarker.blogspot.com/
>
> Niall
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Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Niall Pemberton <ni...@gmail.com>.
On 3/23/06, Henri Yandell <fl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Struts is a cool community. The users are actively involved, in terms
> of answering and asking; people obviously care about the community -
> as shown by both your and Dakota's questions and by the desire of the
> committers to work to keep things together; and there's an active
> future happening plus legacy being actively maintained by both
> contributors and committers.
I don't believe this is true - from what I see Jonathan Revusky's only
desire is to see the demise of Apache - he has no interest in Struts
or Web Frameworks at all, except if they use/support his Freemarker
templating tool. Dakota on the other hand is a different matter - he
at least has been part of this community for a long time, although I
understood he now uses Spring MVC rather than Struts (I'm sure if I
have this wrong he will correct/clarify this). From what I see though,
neither is actually interested in Struts - except in a negative way.
The disappointing thing from my perspective is that the valid points
they make are lost in the noise of the insults and FUD they spread.
Jonathan only arrived in this community part way through this thread,
hopefully he'll get bored and leave soon.
Niall
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Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Henri Yandell <fl...@gmail.com>.
On 3/22/06, Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es> wrote:
> Henri Yandell wrote:
> >
> > foo.apache.org maps to a PMC, which maps to a coding community, not to
> > a codebase.
>
> Henri, I feel I should give you a bit of end-user feedback. I am not
> active in any apache.org projects, but, obviously, it happens quite
> frequently that I go visit the front page of a given apache.org project,
> to check it out for whatever needs I have at that moment.
> ´
> FYI, when I visit foo.apache.org, I am not there for the PMC or whatever
> ASF bureaucratic construct. I'm there for the code.
>
> In general, when I visit the front page of a project, I like to be able
> to figure out what the thing is fairly quickly. This is definitely a
> problem with Struts currently.
So that's a website issue ie) how to join/find the community rather
than an issue in how the community itself is structured.
Do you have suggestions to improve the Struts website so that things
are more clear? There's not a website at the ASF that couldn't be made
a bit clearer.
> > So:
> >
> > If Shale, Struts 1.x and Struts 2.x are being developed by the same
> > community -
>
> Nah, my understanding is that this isn't really the case. There is a
> Struts 1.x which is basically in maintenance mode. There is a Struts
> Action Framework 2.x which is basically Webwork (until recently a
> completely separate *competing* product developed outside of ASF) and
> that's a completely separate team at the moment.
Right, so two communities merging. This is all good - it's probably
natural that you'll see the old hands maintaining the 1.2/1.3 releases
instead of the Webwork guys, but who knows. Plus there will be new
committers, maybe some who just focus on 1.3 because the community
wants to keep it alive.
> And Shale is something
> with a completely different approach, and I assume, has a separate team.
Team-wise, everybody in Struts has access to all the code. They're
also using the same mailing list, and are components in the same
Bugzilla project. All great ways to keep the community together.
Looking at viewcvs quickly; I immediately see overlap. People
committing to shale who are committing to action-1; and the same for
action-2. There will definitely be a focus for each person - but it's
easy to see cross-pollination at work.
Struts is a cool community. The users are actively involved, in terms
of answering and asking; people obviously care about the community -
as shown by both your and Dakota's questions and by the desire of the
committers to work to keep things together; and there's an active
future happening plus legacy being actively maintained by both
contributors and committers.
Yes, shale and action might move apart as the months/years go by and
at some point they might want to separate, but right now it doesn't
look like an unhealthy situation to me. These things tend to evolve
quite happily - someone like yourself raises a question of whether
it's time to make an evolutionary leap, and the community responds. In
the case of this thread I think it's not time for the leap.
Hen
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Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Jonathan Revusky <re...@wanadoo.es>.
Henri Yandell wrote:
> On 3/19/06, Dakota Jack <da...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>I have expressed my "technical concerns" more than once. I have even had
>>Craig agree with them, in a sense. JSF is built for those who are
>>technically challenged and for tools. I don't think even Craig thinks that
>>JSF is superior as a product for advanced webwork. Who knows anymore,
>>however. Look under my discussions, many of them,. about page based
>>controllers and my advocacy of a web-MVC.
>>
>>Why don't you say just what the major reason is that you chose Shale, JSF,
>>MyFaces, or whatever over Tapestry? Do you think we should have Tapestry
>>under the Struts "umbrella" too.
>
>
> Thought I'd pipe up on this one.
>
> foo.apache.org maps to a PMC, which maps to a coding community, not to
> a codebase.
Henri, I feel I should give you a bit of end-user feedback. I am not
active in any apache.org projects, but, obviously, it happens quite
frequently that I go visit the front page of a given apache.org project,
to check it out for whatever needs I have at that moment.
´
FYI, when I visit foo.apache.org, I am not there for the PMC or whatever
ASF bureaucratic construct. I'm there for the code.
In general, when I visit the front page of a project, I like to be able
to figure out what the thing is fairly quickly. This is definitely a
problem with Struts currently.
>
> So:
>
> If Shale, Struts 1.x and Struts 2.x are being developed by the same
> community -
Nah, my understanding is that this isn't really the case. There is a
Struts 1.x which is basically in maintenance mode. There is a Struts
Action Framework 2.x which is basically Webwork (until recently a
completely separate *competing* product developed outside of ASF) and
that's a completely separate team at the moment. And Shale is something
with a completely different approach, and I assume, has a separate team.
> then having them under the oversight of the Struts PMC is
> a good thing. If the community splits in two or three - then the
> question of their being together is a good one.
>
> Tapestry and MyFaces are not developed by the same community, and
> shouldn't be unless the communities show significant overlap.
>
> It's that simple :)
Oh, that's a relief. It only *looks* complicated. :-)
Regards,
Jonathan Revusky
--
lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/
>
> Hen
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Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Henri Yandell <fl...@gmail.com>.
On 3/19/06, Dakota Jack <da...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I have expressed my "technical concerns" more than once. I have even had
> Craig agree with them, in a sense. JSF is built for those who are
> technically challenged and for tools. I don't think even Craig thinks that
> JSF is superior as a product for advanced webwork. Who knows anymore,
> however. Look under my discussions, many of them,. about page based
> controllers and my advocacy of a web-MVC.
>
> Why don't you say just what the major reason is that you chose Shale, JSF,
> MyFaces, or whatever over Tapestry? Do you think we should have Tapestry
> under the Struts "umbrella" too.
Thought I'd pipe up on this one.
foo.apache.org maps to a PMC, which maps to a coding community, not to
a codebase.
So:
If Shale, Struts 1.x and Struts 2.x are being developed by the same
community - then having them under the oversight of the Struts PMC is
a good thing. If the community splits in two or three - then the
question of their being together is a good one.
Tapestry and MyFaces are not developed by the same community, and
shouldn't be unless the communities show significant overlap.
It's that simple :)
Hen
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Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Dakota Jack <da...@gmail.com>.
I have expressed my "technical concerns" more than once. I have even had
Craig agree with them, in a sense. JSF is built for those who are
technically challenged and for tools. I don't think even Craig thinks that
JSF is superior as a product for advanced webwork. Who knows anymore,
however. Look under my discussions, many of them,. about page based
controllers and my advocacy of a web-MVC.
Why don't you say just what the major reason is that you chose Shale, JSF,
MyFaces, or whatever over Tapestry? Do you think we should have Tapestry
under the Struts "umbrella" too.
<snip>
On 3/19/06, Alexandre Poitras <al...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> You are the one always
> bashing JSF, so express your specific technical concerns for once.
</snip>
This is either ignorance or a lie. I have always backed up my arguments
with my technical concerns. That is where my concerns come from. They
don't come from kissing anyone's butt, that's for sure. I have decided I
could give a s.h.i.t. what people like Gary say about trolls.
There is only one person in this particular exchange that has not given the
basis for their choice and that is you. If you don't want to, fine. But
don't try to pass off blatant falsity about what I have or have not done as
the truth.
<snip.
Frankly, when it comes to back up your claims with technical
> arguments, you always seem to run away. Yet you complain about logical
> fallacies and you attack personally Gary. You don't want to be called
> a troll but you certainly not helping your case.
</snip>
This is a huge, unfortunate, misunderstanding which I suppose now will gain
currency. There is absolutely nothing inconsistent or otherwise discordant
between an front controller and Ajax. That is sn inanity.
<snip>
> For my part, I really appreciated working with Struts for a long time
> but I think the zenith of Action-based frameworks has passed,
> especially with the advent of Ajax.
</snip>
Is that a website that is being used presently?
<snip>
> I prefer as my coworkers do to
> using component frameworks now and that why my corporations is
> switching from Struts to JSF. And no Dakota it has nothing to do with
> Shale or Craig, we gave a try at Vanilla JSF first and even if there
> were some rough spots, we were quite happy with it. Plus, JSF have
> some momemtum at the moment, just look at the different innovations
> going around it now (Seam, Shale, facelets, ADF, tobago, ...).
</snip>
This debate is not about Struts versus JSF. That is the stupid sense of
it. This is about the inappropriateness of JSF being in Struts. Frankly,
if someone does not get that, I think they have to either be twisted, not
too bright, or have a hidden agenda.
<snip>
> Well I guess I don't really care about this religious debate.
</snip>
--
"You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back."
~Dakota Jack~
Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Alexandre Poitras <al...@gmail.com>.
What? You want me to discuss what I don't like in Tapestry or what I
prefer in JSF? I have no real concerns about Tapestry, I just prefer
the way some things are done in JSF. But I wouldn't be afraid of using
Tapestry either, it is indeed a good framework. You are the one always
bashing JSF, so express your specific technical concerns for once.
Frankly, when it comes to back up your claims with technical
arguments, you always seem to run away. Yet you complain about logical
fallacies and you attack personally Gary. You don't want to be called
a troll but you certainly not helping your case.
For my part, I really appreciated working with Struts for a long time
but I think the zenith of Action-based frameworks has passed,
especially with the advent of Ajax. I prefer as my coworkers do to
using component frameworks now and that why my corporations is
switching from Struts to JSF. And no Dakota it has nothing to do with
Shale or Craig, we gave a try at Vanilla JSF first and even if there
were some rough spots, we were quite happy with it. Plus, JSF have
some momemtum at the moment, just look at the different innovations
going around it now (Seam, Shale, facelets, ADF, tobago, ...).
Well I guess I don't really care about this religious debate. I will
still have to maintain some Struts application for a long time while
developing in JSF and using Shale. Having a list sharing both
approaches was a plus for me. Yes some people actually like it. I just
don't write about it every days like certain person do. This mailing
list is becoming less and less useful. Anyway, I am probably a moron
since I don't agree with you, whatever...
On 3/19/06, Dakota Jack <da...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Well, since this is your preferred mode, lead the way. I will follow.
> I felt that this was pretty safe, but if you have some contrary
> opinions, please roll them out and I will be more than happy to
> address your concerns. If you don't have anything specific, then I am
> not interested.
>
> On 3/19/06, Alexandre Poitras <al...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > You keep saying Tapesty "does what JSF wants to do better than JSF
> > does it". I have looked into the two from a technical point of view
> > and I prefered JSF. How about giving some technical arguments for once
> > since you are complaing about logic fallacies? Is it because it isn't
> > a standard?
> >
> > On 3/19/06, Dakota Jack <da...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > I really do see these fallacies coming up at all. The fallacies which
> > > typically come up are ones like: (1) argument ad hominem; (2) appeal to
> > > authority; (3) appeal to common practice; (4) appeal to emotion; (5) appeal
> > > to flattery; (6) appleal to popularity; (7) appeal to riducle; (8) biased
> > > sample. These seem to have a life of their own. Yours are, so far as I can
> > > see, never around. Could you give an example from someone's submission on
> > > this list?
> > >
> > > Tapestry is as diverse as JSF and is in Apache as well as Struts, yet no one
> > > in Struts has ever complained about Tapestry. (Tapestry, by the way, does,
> > > in my opinion, what JSF wants to do better than JSF does it. If JSF should
> > > have tried to "horn in" for branding purposes, Tapestry wo0uld have been a
> > > better choice than Struts.) However, if Craig had tried that, Howard
> > > Lewis-Ship would have made him go through what everyone else goes through,
> > > leading to JSF, inevitably, being show the door.
> > >
> > > This discussion is not about diversity. That is Ted's pronouncement which
> > > is unrelated to the facts. This discussion is about greed and branding and
> > > JSF's difficulties getting a toe hold in the mind and eye of the public, I
> > > don't know of a single soul that does not wish JSF well when it is not
> > > pushed on someone. Ted is right that committers on this list do what they
> > > want to do. And, he is right that the committer clique decided to jump into
> > > bed with Craig and JSF. There are committer feet sticking out all over
> > > under the covers of JSF and Shale. This is not to promote diversity. This
> > > was to serve themselves. That is irresponsible to their elected position.
> > >
> > > Ted's idea that serving an open source community is one way to do your job
> > > is a big part of the problem, not a part of the solution, around here.
> > > Frequently we find developers coding away to make something in Struts fit
> > > what they need on the job rather than what Struts needs. This has been
> > > especially prevalent the last year and a half. Ted finds this perfect. I
> > > think it is an abomination. The motivation for working in open source used
> > > to be more due to a desire to do top quality work, something many bright
> > > people were stopped from doing at work or otherwise frustrated about. Now
> > > my job, I don't know about yours, does more exciting work than anyone at
> > > Struts even has a dream about. Spring and other places are working on
> > > exciting, clean, real, stuff. This attempt to sell JSF has turned Struts
> > > into slogging away at best.
> > >
> > > Struts, in my opinion, by tying itself to the think and the values of a
> > > commercial product has completely lost track of any sense of what is and
> > > what is not open source and what is community. The entry to assisting on
> > > these things as a committer used to be merit based in the sense that you had
> > > some talent and could work with others. Now it is a club based on balancing
> > > the voting blocs. When Ted started, he could just jump in after showing
> > > that he was no fool, and start helping. Those real open source days at
> > > Struts are over at this point. Now any indication that you might actually
> > > make Struts grow or have something new and interesting to offer is a sure
> > > sign that you will be rejected. Things have gotten so bad with this that
> > > the committers had to admit that they essentially had killed Struts and
> > > needed to get some help from some people who really had been doing open
> > > source work. Those people will find, I predict, that they made a mistake
> > > coming here and that the Struts name was not worth it.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On 3/19/06, Mark Lowe <me...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > On 3/19/06, Dakota Jack <da...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > Indeed! Hoo hah! Has anyone asked why Tapestry, which is just JSF done
> > > > > well in my opinion, is causing no difficulties on the Struts list?
> > > >
> > > > Diveristy is important, even those who don't agree with a darwinian
> > > > model seem to agree with this. Trying to push one size fits all would
> > > > seem to reflect an intollerance of ambiguity and perhaps demonstrates
> > > > more about an indiviual's personality traits than a genuine balanced
> > > > opinion. Who really cares that much if this or that framework is
> > > > superiour or not according to this or that principle, blue print
> > > > and/or design pattern. All will be ultimately evaluated in the cold
> > > > light of market forces (including available skills, development
> > > > time/cost, and maintainance).
> > > >
> > > > Here are some of the fallacies that keep comming up
> > > >
> > > > Affirmation of the consequent
> > > > if i create software according to x design pattern is will cost less
> > > > and be higher quality,
> > > > the app was built according to x design pattern,
> > > > therefore the app cost less and is of higher quality.
> > > >
> > > > Denial of the antecedent
> > > > if i create software according to x design pattern is will cost less
> > > > and be higher quality,
> > > > my software didn't cost less and isn't high quality,
> > > > therefore it doesn't follow x design pattern.
> > > >
> > > > I actually agree that certain patterns help facilitate positive
> > > > outcomes, but attempting to propose that sucess and failure are merely
> > > > a function of choice of framework or the framework's strict adherence
> > > > to x design pattern is just plain silly. Albeit I've a foot (or
> > > > perhaps both feet) strongly in the silly camp because I'm engaging in
> > > > this sort of futile dialogue.
> > > >
> > > > Mark
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On 3/18/06, Paul Benedict <pa...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >> Ted's central principle that "darwin decides"
> > > > > >
> > > > > > This is a false principle in the terms of software development.
> > > > > > You don't have blind forces assembling the source code of Struts,
> > > > > > but real living people who can see what people want and choose
> > > > > > to write a solution for it. People decide in ASF, not Darwin.
> > > > > > If the Commiters want Struts to succeed into the future, they need
> > > > > > to always have passion and dedication to keep up with the demands
> > > > > > of the MVC market. Any philosophy which reduces Struts to "a gaggle of
> > > > > > engineers", I think, is a reductionist viewpoint; the problem is
> > > > > > much bigger than engineers just wanting to solve problems. That's
> > > > > > why other ASF projects like Tomcat and Tapestry are big winners and
> > > > > > continue to be big winners: a passion to to be successful with
> > > > > > whatever they craft, and a desire to see their projects be the best
> > > > > > at what they are in the industry. I totally see this passion in
> > > > Craig's
> > > > > > work - let's transfer some of that energy into Struts Action
> > > > Framework...
> > > > > > and it's finally happening (again) with WW2.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Paul
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- Mark Lowe <me...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > I've stayed out of this silly thread up until now, but i guess its
> > > > > > > time to be silly as well..
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Now I imagine that I'll get burned by micheal o'grady (dakota jack)
> > > > > > > for quoting this, but Ted's central principle that "darwin decides"
> > > > is
> > > > > > > a sound one. Its sound because it's also a principle that doesn't
> > > > > > > state that struts or anything is good because its better or because
> > > > he
> > > > > > > influenced a group of people to act in a certain way, but because a
> > > > > > > technology survives the ecological pressures of the economy and
> > > > > > > projects that adopt such a approach remain profitable.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Now natural selection doesn't produce perfection, even in biology,
> > > > but
> > > > > > > what you can be sure if is that any organism that lives today has
> > > > been
> > > > > > > begat by organisms that have survived "well enough". If best
> > > > technical
> > > > > > > solutions always won then betamax would have won the video wars.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > While struts is adopted and projects survive the ecological
> > > > pressures
> > > > > > > of engineering and economics it will probably survive. If a
> > > > different
> > > > > > > technoloy is adopted by other folk and they can knock out projects
> > > > for
> > > > > > > less then they will "probably" outlive struts or at least have a
> > > > > > > better chance.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > But all these abstract principles of perfection serve very little.
> > > > > > > From a darwinian perspective a ford motor car is more successful
> > > > than
> > > > > > > a ferrari. Now my understanding of the apache development that if
> > > > > > > solutions (commits, patches etc) are best when they are real world
> > > > > > > solutions, by facilitating these "adaptations" software is more
> > > > likey
> > > > > > > to survive ecological pressures because the adaptations are in
> > > > direct
> > > > > > > response to the enviornment in which these products find themselves.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The other important factor to have a healthy ecosystem that there is
> > > > > > > never a single organism/technology that covers all niches. Its also
> > > > > > > true that in a single ecosystem there are never two organisms that
> > > > > > > occupy the same niche for very long. This is nature, and I don't see
> > > > > > > the human activity of software development being very different.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I could carry on, but I wont.. What the main point is that it
> > > > doesn't
> > > > > > > really matter what anyone thinks of this and that. What will survive
> > > > > > > will survive (excuse the tautology). Ferrari survives as does ford
> > > > > > > (albeit from selling the financial products to buy their goods) they
> > > > > > > occupy different niches. In the case of betamax and vhs only one
> > > > > > > survived because they occupy the same niche. All any of us can do is
> > > > > > > try and knock out projects as best and as cheaply as possible, and
> > > > > > > darwin will decide the rest. Central to a good ecosystem is
> > > > diversity.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Mark
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On 3/18/06, Steve Raeburn <sr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > > > > I think the flaw in my analogy is that nobody will starve if they
> > > > > > choose
> > > > > > > > not to eat at the Struts shelter :-)
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Steve
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Frank W. Zammetti wrote:
> > > > > > > > > Steve Raeburn wrote:
> > > > > > > > >> Let me try another analogy. Let's say you go down to volunteer
> > > > at a
> > > > > > > > >> homeless shelter. You serve a few meals and wipe a few tables a
> > > > > > > > >> couple of times a month. Do you become bound by any
> > > > responsibility
> > > > > > > > >> other than to show up and help? Do you become responsible for
> > > > > > solving
> > > > > > > > >> the homeless problem? Should you feel obligated to give someone
> > > > a
> > > > > > > > >> bed? Some people may feel they do have such a responsibility.
> > > > > > Others
> > > > > > > > >> won't. It's not my place to criticize a volunteer for not
> > > > taking on
> > > > > > > > >> those additional responsibilities. I am just grateful that
> > > > you've
> > > > > > > > >> just done a little bit to help out.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > That's a good analogy, it took me a while to figure out why it
> > > > > > wasn't
> > > > > > > > > right for me with my position in mind (you had me doubting
> > > > myself
> > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > > a few hours before it hit me!)...
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > If the volunteer does as you say, then I would agree, there
> > > > isn't
> > > > > > any
> > > > > > > > > added/assumed responsibility. One would hope they have their
> > > > own
> > > > > > > > > sense of responsibility and treat the homeless people kindly,
> > > > but
> > > > > > > > > that's about it.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > However... if the volunteer does good work and is consequently
> > > > asked
> > > > > > > > > to become a permanent volunteer by an existing group of
> > > > permanent
> > > > > > > > > volunteers, and as a result is given some degree of authority to
> > > > > > make
> > > > > > > > > decisions that will affect those that come to the shelter, then
> > > > I
> > > > > > > > > think there is definitely a higher level of responsibility to
> > > > that
> > > > > > > > > "community" of homeless, as well of course to the other
> > > > permanent
> > > > > > > > > volunteers. Again, as I've said all along, the degree of extra
> > > > > > > > > responsibility I think is debatable.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > In your original analogy, the volunteer would be someone like
> > > > > > me. In
> > > > > > > > > my modified version, they would be a committer. At least in my
> > > > > > eyes,
> > > > > > > > > there is a difference.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Excellent analogy though, you definitely made me think and
> > > > evaluate
> > > > > > my
> > > > > > > > > position, I appreciate that! :)
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >> Steve
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Frank
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > > > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> > > > > > > > > For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> > > > > > > > For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> > > > > > > For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > __________________________________________________
> > > > > > Do You Yahoo!?
> > > > > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> > > > > > http://mail.yahoo.com
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> > > > > > For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > "You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its
> > > > back."
> > > > > ~Dakota Jack~
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> > > > For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > "You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back."
> > > ~Dakota Jack~
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Alexandre Poitras
> > Qu�bec, Canada
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> "You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back."
> ~Dakota Jack~
>
--
Alexandre Poitras
Québec, Canada
Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Dakota Jack <da...@gmail.com>.
Well, since this is your preferred mode, lead the way. I will follow.
I felt that this was pretty safe, but if you have some contrary
opinions, please roll them out and I will be more than happy to
address your concerns. If you don't have anything specific, then I am
not interested.
On 3/19/06, Alexandre Poitras <al...@gmail.com> wrote:
> You keep saying Tapesty "does what JSF wants to do better than JSF
> does it". I have looked into the two from a technical point of view
> and I prefered JSF. How about giving some technical arguments for once
> since you are complaing about logic fallacies? Is it because it isn't
> a standard?
>
> On 3/19/06, Dakota Jack <da...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > I really do see these fallacies coming up at all. The fallacies which
> > typically come up are ones like: (1) argument ad hominem; (2) appeal to
> > authority; (3) appeal to common practice; (4) appeal to emotion; (5) appeal
> > to flattery; (6) appleal to popularity; (7) appeal to riducle; (8) biased
> > sample. These seem to have a life of their own. Yours are, so far as I can
> > see, never around. Could you give an example from someone's submission on
> > this list?
> >
> > Tapestry is as diverse as JSF and is in Apache as well as Struts, yet no one
> > in Struts has ever complained about Tapestry. (Tapestry, by the way, does,
> > in my opinion, what JSF wants to do better than JSF does it. If JSF should
> > have tried to "horn in" for branding purposes, Tapestry wo0uld have been a
> > better choice than Struts.) However, if Craig had tried that, Howard
> > Lewis-Ship would have made him go through what everyone else goes through,
> > leading to JSF, inevitably, being show the door.
> >
> > This discussion is not about diversity. That is Ted's pronouncement which
> > is unrelated to the facts. This discussion is about greed and branding and
> > JSF's difficulties getting a toe hold in the mind and eye of the public, I
> > don't know of a single soul that does not wish JSF well when it is not
> > pushed on someone. Ted is right that committers on this list do what they
> > want to do. And, he is right that the committer clique decided to jump into
> > bed with Craig and JSF. There are committer feet sticking out all over
> > under the covers of JSF and Shale. This is not to promote diversity. This
> > was to serve themselves. That is irresponsible to their elected position.
> >
> > Ted's idea that serving an open source community is one way to do your job
> > is a big part of the problem, not a part of the solution, around here.
> > Frequently we find developers coding away to make something in Struts fit
> > what they need on the job rather than what Struts needs. This has been
> > especially prevalent the last year and a half. Ted finds this perfect. I
> > think it is an abomination. The motivation for working in open source used
> > to be more due to a desire to do top quality work, something many bright
> > people were stopped from doing at work or otherwise frustrated about. Now
> > my job, I don't know about yours, does more exciting work than anyone at
> > Struts even has a dream about. Spring and other places are working on
> > exciting, clean, real, stuff. This attempt to sell JSF has turned Struts
> > into slogging away at best.
> >
> > Struts, in my opinion, by tying itself to the think and the values of a
> > commercial product has completely lost track of any sense of what is and
> > what is not open source and what is community. The entry to assisting on
> > these things as a committer used to be merit based in the sense that you had
> > some talent and could work with others. Now it is a club based on balancing
> > the voting blocs. When Ted started, he could just jump in after showing
> > that he was no fool, and start helping. Those real open source days at
> > Struts are over at this point. Now any indication that you might actually
> > make Struts grow or have something new and interesting to offer is a sure
> > sign that you will be rejected. Things have gotten so bad with this that
> > the committers had to admit that they essentially had killed Struts and
> > needed to get some help from some people who really had been doing open
> > source work. Those people will find, I predict, that they made a mistake
> > coming here and that the Struts name was not worth it.
> >
> >
> >
> > On 3/19/06, Mark Lowe <me...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > On 3/19/06, Dakota Jack <da...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > Indeed! Hoo hah! Has anyone asked why Tapestry, which is just JSF done
> > > > well in my opinion, is causing no difficulties on the Struts list?
> > >
> > > Diveristy is important, even those who don't agree with a darwinian
> > > model seem to agree with this. Trying to push one size fits all would
> > > seem to reflect an intollerance of ambiguity and perhaps demonstrates
> > > more about an indiviual's personality traits than a genuine balanced
> > > opinion. Who really cares that much if this or that framework is
> > > superiour or not according to this or that principle, blue print
> > > and/or design pattern. All will be ultimately evaluated in the cold
> > > light of market forces (including available skills, development
> > > time/cost, and maintainance).
> > >
> > > Here are some of the fallacies that keep comming up
> > >
> > > Affirmation of the consequent
> > > if i create software according to x design pattern is will cost less
> > > and be higher quality,
> > > the app was built according to x design pattern,
> > > therefore the app cost less and is of higher quality.
> > >
> > > Denial of the antecedent
> > > if i create software according to x design pattern is will cost less
> > > and be higher quality,
> > > my software didn't cost less and isn't high quality,
> > > therefore it doesn't follow x design pattern.
> > >
> > > I actually agree that certain patterns help facilitate positive
> > > outcomes, but attempting to propose that sucess and failure are merely
> > > a function of choice of framework or the framework's strict adherence
> > > to x design pattern is just plain silly. Albeit I've a foot (or
> > > perhaps both feet) strongly in the silly camp because I'm engaging in
> > > this sort of futile dialogue.
> > >
> > > Mark
> > >
> > > >
> > > > On 3/18/06, Paul Benedict <pa...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > >> Ted's central principle that "darwin decides"
> > > > >
> > > > > This is a false principle in the terms of software development.
> > > > > You don't have blind forces assembling the source code of Struts,
> > > > > but real living people who can see what people want and choose
> > > > > to write a solution for it. People decide in ASF, not Darwin.
> > > > > If the Commiters want Struts to succeed into the future, they need
> > > > > to always have passion and dedication to keep up with the demands
> > > > > of the MVC market. Any philosophy which reduces Struts to "a gaggle of
> > > > > engineers", I think, is a reductionist viewpoint; the problem is
> > > > > much bigger than engineers just wanting to solve problems. That's
> > > > > why other ASF projects like Tomcat and Tapestry are big winners and
> > > > > continue to be big winners: a passion to to be successful with
> > > > > whatever they craft, and a desire to see their projects be the best
> > > > > at what they are in the industry. I totally see this passion in
> > > Craig's
> > > > > work - let's transfer some of that energy into Struts Action
> > > Framework...
> > > > > and it's finally happening (again) with WW2.
> > > > >
> > > > > Paul
> > > > >
> > > > > --- Mark Lowe <me...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > I've stayed out of this silly thread up until now, but i guess its
> > > > > > time to be silly as well..
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Now I imagine that I'll get burned by micheal o'grady (dakota jack)
> > > > > > for quoting this, but Ted's central principle that "darwin decides"
> > > is
> > > > > > a sound one. Its sound because it's also a principle that doesn't
> > > > > > state that struts or anything is good because its better or because
> > > he
> > > > > > influenced a group of people to act in a certain way, but because a
> > > > > > technology survives the ecological pressures of the economy and
> > > > > > projects that adopt such a approach remain profitable.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Now natural selection doesn't produce perfection, even in biology,
> > > but
> > > > > > what you can be sure if is that any organism that lives today has
> > > been
> > > > > > begat by organisms that have survived "well enough". If best
> > > technical
> > > > > > solutions always won then betamax would have won the video wars.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > While struts is adopted and projects survive the ecological
> > > pressures
> > > > > > of engineering and economics it will probably survive. If a
> > > different
> > > > > > technoloy is adopted by other folk and they can knock out projects
> > > for
> > > > > > less then they will "probably" outlive struts or at least have a
> > > > > > better chance.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > But all these abstract principles of perfection serve very little.
> > > > > > From a darwinian perspective a ford motor car is more successful
> > > than
> > > > > > a ferrari. Now my understanding of the apache development that if
> > > > > > solutions (commits, patches etc) are best when they are real world
> > > > > > solutions, by facilitating these "adaptations" software is more
> > > likey
> > > > > > to survive ecological pressures because the adaptations are in
> > > direct
> > > > > > response to the enviornment in which these products find themselves.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The other important factor to have a healthy ecosystem that there is
> > > > > > never a single organism/technology that covers all niches. Its also
> > > > > > true that in a single ecosystem there are never two organisms that
> > > > > > occupy the same niche for very long. This is nature, and I don't see
> > > > > > the human activity of software development being very different.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I could carry on, but I wont.. What the main point is that it
> > > doesn't
> > > > > > really matter what anyone thinks of this and that. What will survive
> > > > > > will survive (excuse the tautology). Ferrari survives as does ford
> > > > > > (albeit from selling the financial products to buy their goods) they
> > > > > > occupy different niches. In the case of betamax and vhs only one
> > > > > > survived because they occupy the same niche. All any of us can do is
> > > > > > try and knock out projects as best and as cheaply as possible, and
> > > > > > darwin will decide the rest. Central to a good ecosystem is
> > > diversity.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Mark
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On 3/18/06, Steve Raeburn <sr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > > > I think the flaw in my analogy is that nobody will starve if they
> > > > > choose
> > > > > > > not to eat at the Struts shelter :-)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Steve
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Frank W. Zammetti wrote:
> > > > > > > > Steve Raeburn wrote:
> > > > > > > >> Let me try another analogy. Let's say you go down to volunteer
> > > at a
> > > > > > > >> homeless shelter. You serve a few meals and wipe a few tables a
> > > > > > > >> couple of times a month. Do you become bound by any
> > > responsibility
> > > > > > > >> other than to show up and help? Do you become responsible for
> > > > > solving
> > > > > > > >> the homeless problem? Should you feel obligated to give someone
> > > a
> > > > > > > >> bed? Some people may feel they do have such a responsibility.
> > > > > Others
> > > > > > > >> won't. It's not my place to criticize a volunteer for not
> > > taking on
> > > > > > > >> those additional responsibilities. I am just grateful that
> > > you've
> > > > > > > >> just done a little bit to help out.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > That's a good analogy, it took me a while to figure out why it
> > > > > wasn't
> > > > > > > > right for me with my position in mind (you had me doubting
> > > myself
> > > > > for
> > > > > > > > a few hours before it hit me!)...
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > If the volunteer does as you say, then I would agree, there
> > > isn't
> > > > > any
> > > > > > > > added/assumed responsibility. One would hope they have their
> > > own
> > > > > > > > sense of responsibility and treat the homeless people kindly,
> > > but
> > > > > > > > that's about it.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > However... if the volunteer does good work and is consequently
> > > asked
> > > > > > > > to become a permanent volunteer by an existing group of
> > > permanent
> > > > > > > > volunteers, and as a result is given some degree of authority to
> > > > > make
> > > > > > > > decisions that will affect those that come to the shelter, then
> > > I
> > > > > > > > think there is definitely a higher level of responsibility to
> > > that
> > > > > > > > "community" of homeless, as well of course to the other
> > > permanent
> > > > > > > > volunteers. Again, as I've said all along, the degree of extra
> > > > > > > > responsibility I think is debatable.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > In your original analogy, the volunteer would be someone like
> > > > > me. In
> > > > > > > > my modified version, they would be a committer. At least in my
> > > > > eyes,
> > > > > > > > there is a difference.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Excellent analogy though, you definitely made me think and
> > > evaluate
> > > > > my
> > > > > > > > position, I appreciate that! :)
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >> Steve
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Frank
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> > > > > > > > For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> > > > > > > For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> > > > > > For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > __________________________________________________
> > > > > Do You Yahoo!?
> > > > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> > > > > http://mail.yahoo.com
> > > > >
> > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> > > > > For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > "You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its
> > > back."
> > > > ~Dakota Jack~
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> > > For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > "You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back."
> > ~Dakota Jack~
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Alexandre Poitras
> Qu�bec, Canada
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
>
>
--
"You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back."
~Dakota Jack~
Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Alexandre Poitras <al...@gmail.com>.
You keep saying Tapesty "does what JSF wants to do better than JSF
does it". I have looked into the two from a technical point of view
and I prefered JSF. How about giving some technical arguments for once
since you are complaing about logic fallacies? Is it because it isn't
a standard?
On 3/19/06, Dakota Jack <da...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I really do see these fallacies coming up at all. The fallacies which
> typically come up are ones like: (1) argument ad hominem; (2) appeal to
> authority; (3) appeal to common practice; (4) appeal to emotion; (5) appeal
> to flattery; (6) appleal to popularity; (7) appeal to riducle; (8) biased
> sample. These seem to have a life of their own. Yours are, so far as I can
> see, never around. Could you give an example from someone's submission on
> this list?
>
> Tapestry is as diverse as JSF and is in Apache as well as Struts, yet no one
> in Struts has ever complained about Tapestry. (Tapestry, by the way, does,
> in my opinion, what JSF wants to do better than JSF does it. If JSF should
> have tried to "horn in" for branding purposes, Tapestry wo0uld have been a
> better choice than Struts.) However, if Craig had tried that, Howard
> Lewis-Ship would have made him go through what everyone else goes through,
> leading to JSF, inevitably, being show the door.
>
> This discussion is not about diversity. That is Ted's pronouncement which
> is unrelated to the facts. This discussion is about greed and branding and
> JSF's difficulties getting a toe hold in the mind and eye of the public, I
> don't know of a single soul that does not wish JSF well when it is not
> pushed on someone. Ted is right that committers on this list do what they
> want to do. And, he is right that the committer clique decided to jump into
> bed with Craig and JSF. There are committer feet sticking out all over
> under the covers of JSF and Shale. This is not to promote diversity. This
> was to serve themselves. That is irresponsible to their elected position.
>
> Ted's idea that serving an open source community is one way to do your job
> is a big part of the problem, not a part of the solution, around here.
> Frequently we find developers coding away to make something in Struts fit
> what they need on the job rather than what Struts needs. This has been
> especially prevalent the last year and a half. Ted finds this perfect. I
> think it is an abomination. The motivation for working in open source used
> to be more due to a desire to do top quality work, something many bright
> people were stopped from doing at work or otherwise frustrated about. Now
> my job, I don't know about yours, does more exciting work than anyone at
> Struts even has a dream about. Spring and other places are working on
> exciting, clean, real, stuff. This attempt to sell JSF has turned Struts
> into slogging away at best.
>
> Struts, in my opinion, by tying itself to the think and the values of a
> commercial product has completely lost track of any sense of what is and
> what is not open source and what is community. The entry to assisting on
> these things as a committer used to be merit based in the sense that you had
> some talent and could work with others. Now it is a club based on balancing
> the voting blocs. When Ted started, he could just jump in after showing
> that he was no fool, and start helping. Those real open source days at
> Struts are over at this point. Now any indication that you might actually
> make Struts grow or have something new and interesting to offer is a sure
> sign that you will be rejected. Things have gotten so bad with this that
> the committers had to admit that they essentially had killed Struts and
> needed to get some help from some people who really had been doing open
> source work. Those people will find, I predict, that they made a mistake
> coming here and that the Struts name was not worth it.
>
>
>
> On 3/19/06, Mark Lowe <me...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > On 3/19/06, Dakota Jack <da...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > Indeed! Hoo hah! Has anyone asked why Tapestry, which is just JSF done
> > > well in my opinion, is causing no difficulties on the Struts list?
> >
> > Diveristy is important, even those who don't agree with a darwinian
> > model seem to agree with this. Trying to push one size fits all would
> > seem to reflect an intollerance of ambiguity and perhaps demonstrates
> > more about an indiviual's personality traits than a genuine balanced
> > opinion. Who really cares that much if this or that framework is
> > superiour or not according to this or that principle, blue print
> > and/or design pattern. All will be ultimately evaluated in the cold
> > light of market forces (including available skills, development
> > time/cost, and maintainance).
> >
> > Here are some of the fallacies that keep comming up
> >
> > Affirmation of the consequent
> > if i create software according to x design pattern is will cost less
> > and be higher quality,
> > the app was built according to x design pattern,
> > therefore the app cost less and is of higher quality.
> >
> > Denial of the antecedent
> > if i create software according to x design pattern is will cost less
> > and be higher quality,
> > my software didn't cost less and isn't high quality,
> > therefore it doesn't follow x design pattern.
> >
> > I actually agree that certain patterns help facilitate positive
> > outcomes, but attempting to propose that sucess and failure are merely
> > a function of choice of framework or the framework's strict adherence
> > to x design pattern is just plain silly. Albeit I've a foot (or
> > perhaps both feet) strongly in the silly camp because I'm engaging in
> > this sort of futile dialogue.
> >
> > Mark
> >
> > >
> > > On 3/18/06, Paul Benedict <pa...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >> Ted's central principle that "darwin decides"
> > > >
> > > > This is a false principle in the terms of software development.
> > > > You don't have blind forces assembling the source code of Struts,
> > > > but real living people who can see what people want and choose
> > > > to write a solution for it. People decide in ASF, not Darwin.
> > > > If the Commiters want Struts to succeed into the future, they need
> > > > to always have passion and dedication to keep up with the demands
> > > > of the MVC market. Any philosophy which reduces Struts to "a gaggle of
> > > > engineers", I think, is a reductionist viewpoint; the problem is
> > > > much bigger than engineers just wanting to solve problems. That's
> > > > why other ASF projects like Tomcat and Tapestry are big winners and
> > > > continue to be big winners: a passion to to be successful with
> > > > whatever they craft, and a desire to see their projects be the best
> > > > at what they are in the industry. I totally see this passion in
> > Craig's
> > > > work - let's transfer some of that energy into Struts Action
> > Framework...
> > > > and it's finally happening (again) with WW2.
> > > >
> > > > Paul
> > > >
> > > > --- Mark Lowe <me...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > I've stayed out of this silly thread up until now, but i guess its
> > > > > time to be silly as well..
> > > > >
> > > > > Now I imagine that I'll get burned by micheal o'grady (dakota jack)
> > > > > for quoting this, but Ted's central principle that "darwin decides"
> > is
> > > > > a sound one. Its sound because it's also a principle that doesn't
> > > > > state that struts or anything is good because its better or because
> > he
> > > > > influenced a group of people to act in a certain way, but because a
> > > > > technology survives the ecological pressures of the economy and
> > > > > projects that adopt such a approach remain profitable.
> > > > >
> > > > > Now natural selection doesn't produce perfection, even in biology,
> > but
> > > > > what you can be sure if is that any organism that lives today has
> > been
> > > > > begat by organisms that have survived "well enough". If best
> > technical
> > > > > solutions always won then betamax would have won the video wars.
> > > > >
> > > > > While struts is adopted and projects survive the ecological
> > pressures
> > > > > of engineering and economics it will probably survive. If a
> > different
> > > > > technoloy is adopted by other folk and they can knock out projects
> > for
> > > > > less then they will "probably" outlive struts or at least have a
> > > > > better chance.
> > > > >
> > > > > But all these abstract principles of perfection serve very little.
> > > > > From a darwinian perspective a ford motor car is more successful
> > than
> > > > > a ferrari. Now my understanding of the apache development that if
> > > > > solutions (commits, patches etc) are best when they are real world
> > > > > solutions, by facilitating these "adaptations" software is more
> > likey
> > > > > to survive ecological pressures because the adaptations are in
> > direct
> > > > > response to the enviornment in which these products find themselves.
> > > > >
> > > > > The other important factor to have a healthy ecosystem that there is
> > > > > never a single organism/technology that covers all niches. Its also
> > > > > true that in a single ecosystem there are never two organisms that
> > > > > occupy the same niche for very long. This is nature, and I don't see
> > > > > the human activity of software development being very different.
> > > > >
> > > > > I could carry on, but I wont.. What the main point is that it
> > doesn't
> > > > > really matter what anyone thinks of this and that. What will survive
> > > > > will survive (excuse the tautology). Ferrari survives as does ford
> > > > > (albeit from selling the financial products to buy their goods) they
> > > > > occupy different niches. In the case of betamax and vhs only one
> > > > > survived because they occupy the same niche. All any of us can do is
> > > > > try and knock out projects as best and as cheaply as possible, and
> > > > > darwin will decide the rest. Central to a good ecosystem is
> > diversity.
> > > > >
> > > > > Mark
> > > > >
> > > > > On 3/18/06, Steve Raeburn <sr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > > I think the flaw in my analogy is that nobody will starve if they
> > > > choose
> > > > > > not to eat at the Struts shelter :-)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Steve
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Frank W. Zammetti wrote:
> > > > > > > Steve Raeburn wrote:
> > > > > > >> Let me try another analogy. Let's say you go down to volunteer
> > at a
> > > > > > >> homeless shelter. You serve a few meals and wipe a few tables a
> > > > > > >> couple of times a month. Do you become bound by any
> > responsibility
> > > > > > >> other than to show up and help? Do you become responsible for
> > > > solving
> > > > > > >> the homeless problem? Should you feel obligated to give someone
> > a
> > > > > > >> bed? Some people may feel they do have such a responsibility.
> > > > Others
> > > > > > >> won't. It's not my place to criticize a volunteer for not
> > taking on
> > > > > > >> those additional responsibilities. I am just grateful that
> > you've
> > > > > > >> just done a little bit to help out.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > That's a good analogy, it took me a while to figure out why it
> > > > wasn't
> > > > > > > right for me with my position in mind (you had me doubting
> > myself
> > > > for
> > > > > > > a few hours before it hit me!)...
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > If the volunteer does as you say, then I would agree, there
> > isn't
> > > > any
> > > > > > > added/assumed responsibility. One would hope they have their
> > own
> > > > > > > sense of responsibility and treat the homeless people kindly,
> > but
> > > > > > > that's about it.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > However... if the volunteer does good work and is consequently
> > asked
> > > > > > > to become a permanent volunteer by an existing group of
> > permanent
> > > > > > > volunteers, and as a result is given some degree of authority to
> > > > make
> > > > > > > decisions that will affect those that come to the shelter, then
> > I
> > > > > > > think there is definitely a higher level of responsibility to
> > that
> > > > > > > "community" of homeless, as well of course to the other
> > permanent
> > > > > > > volunteers. Again, as I've said all along, the degree of extra
> > > > > > > responsibility I think is debatable.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > In your original analogy, the volunteer would be someone like
> > > > me. In
> > > > > > > my modified version, they would be a committer. At least in my
> > > > eyes,
> > > > > > > there is a difference.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Excellent analogy though, you definitely made me think and
> > evaluate
> > > > my
> > > > > > > position, I appreciate that! :)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >> Steve
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Frank
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> > > > > > > For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> > > > > > For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> > > > > For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > __________________________________________________
> > > > Do You Yahoo!?
> > > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> > > > http://mail.yahoo.com
> > > >
> > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> > > > For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > "You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its
> > back."
> > > ~Dakota Jack~
> > >
> > >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> "You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back."
> ~Dakota Jack~
>
>
--
Alexandre Poitras
Québec, Canada
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Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Dakota Jack <da...@gmail.com>.
<snip>
On 3/19/06, Mark Lowe <me...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 3/19/06, Dakota Jack <da...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Frequently we find developers coding away to make something in Struts fit
> > what they need on the job rather than what Struts needs.
>
> Isn't that the point? So what does struts need according to dakota jack?
</snip>
A cool web framework? Committers that accept and encourage innovative
and intelligent ideas? Some open minds? Look at the file upload mess
in Struts and you will see what happens when someone codes for what
they need on the job.
--
"You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back."
~Dakota Jack~
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Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Mark Lowe <me...@gmail.com>.
On 3/19/06, Dakota Jack <da...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I really do see these fallacies coming up at all. The fallacies which
> typically come up are ones like: (1) argument ad hominem; (2) appeal to
> authority; (3) appeal to common practice; (4) appeal to emotion; (5) appeal
> to flattery; (6) appleal to popularity; (7) appeal to riducle; (8) biased
> sample. These seem to have a life of their own. Yours are, so far as I can
> see, never around. Could you give an example from someone's submission on
> this list?
>
> Tapestry is as diverse as JSF and is in Apache as well as Struts, yet no one
> in Struts has ever complained about Tapestry. (Tapestry, by the way, does,
> in my opinion, what JSF wants to do better than JSF does it. If JSF should
> have tried to "horn in" for branding purposes, Tapestry wo0uld have been a
> better choice than Struts.) However, if Craig had tried that, Howard
> Lewis-Ship would have made him go through what everyone else goes through,
> leading to JSF, inevitably, being show the door.
>
> This discussion is not about diversity. That is Ted's pronouncement which
> is unrelated to the facts. This discussion is about greed and branding and
> JSF's difficulties getting a toe hold in the mind and eye of the public, I
> don't know of a single soul that does not wish JSF well when it is not
> pushed on someone. Ted is right that committers on this list do what they
> want to do. And, he is right that the committer clique decided to jump into
> bed with Craig and JSF. There are committer feet sticking out all over
> under the covers of JSF and Shale. This is not to promote diversity. This
> was to serve themselves. That is irresponsible to their elected position.>
> Ted's idea that serving an open source community is one way to do your job
> is a big part of the problem, not a part of the solution, around here.
> Frequently we find developers coding away to make something in Struts fit
> what they need on the job rather than what Struts needs.
Isn't that the point? So what does struts need according to dakota jack?
This has been
> especially prevalent the last year and a half. Ted finds this perfect. I
> think it is an abomination. The motivation for working in open source used
> to be more due to a desire to do top quality work, something many bright
> people were stopped from doing at work or otherwise frustrated about. Now
> my job, I don't know about yours, does more exciting work than anyone at
> Struts even has a dream about. Spring and other places are working on
> exciting, clean, real, stuff. This attempt to sell JSF has turned Struts
> into slogging away at best.
>
> Struts, in my opinion, by tying itself to the think and the values of a
> commercial product has completely lost track of any sense of what is and
> what is not open source and what is community. The entry to assisting on
> these things as a committer used to be merit based in the sense that you had
> some talent and could work with others. Now it is a club based on balancing
> the voting blocs. When Ted started, he could just jump in after showing
> that he was no fool, and start helping. Those real open source days at
> Struts are over at this point. Now any indication that you might actually
> make Struts grow or have something new and interesting to offer is a sure
> sign that you will be rejected. Things have gotten so bad with this that
> the committers had to admit that they essentially had killed Struts and
> needed to get some help from some people who really had been doing open
> source work. Those people will find, I predict, that they made a mistake
> coming here and that the Struts name was not worth it.
>
>
>
> On 3/19/06, Mark Lowe <me...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > On 3/19/06, Dakota Jack <da...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > Indeed! Hoo hah! Has anyone asked why Tapestry, which is just JSF done
> > > well in my opinion, is causing no difficulties on the Struts list?
> >
> > Diveristy is important, even those who don't agree with a darwinian
> > model seem to agree with this. Trying to push one size fits all would
> > seem to reflect an intollerance of ambiguity and perhaps demonstrates
> > more about an indiviual's personality traits than a genuine balanced
> > opinion. Who really cares that much if this or that framework is
> > superiour or not according to this or that principle, blue print
> > and/or design pattern. All will be ultimately evaluated in the cold
> > light of market forces (including available skills, development
> > time/cost, and maintainance).
> >
> > Here are some of the fallacies that keep comming up
> >
> > Affirmation of the consequent
> > if i create software according to x design pattern is will cost less
> > and be higher quality,
> > the app was built according to x design pattern,
> > therefore the app cost less and is of higher quality.
> >
> > Denial of the antecedent
> > if i create software according to x design pattern is will cost less
> > and be higher quality,
> > my software didn't cost less and isn't high quality,
> > therefore it doesn't follow x design pattern.
> >
> > I actually agree that certain patterns help facilitate positive
> > outcomes, but attempting to propose that sucess and failure are merely
> > a function of choice of framework or the framework's strict adherence
> > to x design pattern is just plain silly. Albeit I've a foot (or
> > perhaps both feet) strongly in the silly camp because I'm engaging in
> > this sort of futile dialogue.
> >
> > Mark
> >
> > >
> > > On 3/18/06, Paul Benedict <pa...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >> Ted's central principle that "darwin decides"
> > > >
> > > > This is a false principle in the terms of software development.
> > > > You don't have blind forces assembling the source code of Struts,
> > > > but real living people who can see what people want and choose
> > > > to write a solution for it. People decide in ASF, not Darwin.
> > > > If the Commiters want Struts to succeed into the future, they need
> > > > to always have passion and dedication to keep up with the demands
> > > > of the MVC market. Any philosophy which reduces Struts to "a gaggle of
> > > > engineers", I think, is a reductionist viewpoint; the problem is
> > > > much bigger than engineers just wanting to solve problems. That's
> > > > why other ASF projects like Tomcat and Tapestry are big winners and
> > > > continue to be big winners: a passion to to be successful with
> > > > whatever they craft, and a desire to see their projects be the best
> > > > at what they are in the industry. I totally see this passion in
> > Craig's
> > > > work - let's transfer some of that energy into Struts Action
> > Framework...
> > > > and it's finally happening (again) with WW2.
> > > >
> > > > Paul
> > > >
> > > > --- Mark Lowe <me...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > I've stayed out of this silly thread up until now, but i guess its
> > > > > time to be silly as well..
> > > > >
> > > > > Now I imagine that I'll get burned by micheal o'grady (dakota jack)
> > > > > for quoting this, but Ted's central principle that "darwin decides"
> > is
> > > > > a sound one. Its sound because it's also a principle that doesn't
> > > > > state that struts or anything is good because its better or because
> > he
> > > > > influenced a group of people to act in a certain way, but because a
> > > > > technology survives the ecological pressures of the economy and
> > > > > projects that adopt such a approach remain profitable.
> > > > >
> > > > > Now natural selection doesn't produce perfection, even in biology,
> > but
> > > > > what you can be sure if is that any organism that lives today has
> > been
> > > > > begat by organisms that have survived "well enough". If best
> > technical
> > > > > solutions always won then betamax would have won the video wars.
> > > > >
> > > > > While struts is adopted and projects survive the ecological
> > pressures
> > > > > of engineering and economics it will probably survive. If a
> > different
> > > > > technoloy is adopted by other folk and they can knock out projects
> > for
> > > > > less then they will "probably" outlive struts or at least have a
> > > > > better chance.
> > > > >
> > > > > But all these abstract principles of perfection serve very little.
> > > > > From a darwinian perspective a ford motor car is more successful
> > than
> > > > > a ferrari. Now my understanding of the apache development that if
> > > > > solutions (commits, patches etc) are best when they are real world
> > > > > solutions, by facilitating these "adaptations" software is more
> > likey
> > > > > to survive ecological pressures because the adaptations are in
> > direct
> > > > > response to the enviornment in which these products find themselves.
> > > > >
> > > > > The other important factor to have a healthy ecosystem that there is
> > > > > never a single organism/technology that covers all niches. Its also
> > > > > true that in a single ecosystem there are never two organisms that
> > > > > occupy the same niche for very long. This is nature, and I don't see
> > > > > the human activity of software development being very different.
> > > > >
> > > > > I could carry on, but I wont.. What the main point is that it
> > doesn't
> > > > > really matter what anyone thinks of this and that. What will survive
> > > > > will survive (excuse the tautology). Ferrari survives as does ford
> > > > > (albeit from selling the financial products to buy their goods) they
> > > > > occupy different niches. In the case of betamax and vhs only one
> > > > > survived because they occupy the same niche. All any of us can do is
> > > > > try and knock out projects as best and as cheaply as possible, and
> > > > > darwin will decide the rest. Central to a good ecosystem is
> > diversity.
> > > > >
> > > > > Mark
> > > > >
> > > > > On 3/18/06, Steve Raeburn <sr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > > I think the flaw in my analogy is that nobody will starve if they
> > > > choose
> > > > > > not to eat at the Struts shelter :-)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Steve
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Frank W. Zammetti wrote:
> > > > > > > Steve Raeburn wrote:
> > > > > > >> Let me try another analogy. Let's say you go down to volunteer
> > at a
> > > > > > >> homeless shelter. You serve a few meals and wipe a few tables a
> > > > > > >> couple of times a month. Do you become bound by any
> > responsibility
> > > > > > >> other than to show up and help? Do you become responsible for
> > > > solving
> > > > > > >> the homeless problem? Should you feel obligated to give someone
> > a
> > > > > > >> bed? Some people may feel they do have such a responsibility.
> > > > Others
> > > > > > >> won't. It's not my place to criticize a volunteer for not
> > taking on
> > > > > > >> those additional responsibilities. I am just grateful that
> > you've
> > > > > > >> just done a little bit to help out.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > That's a good analogy, it took me a while to figure out why it
> > > > wasn't
> > > > > > > right for me with my position in mind (you had me doubting
> > myself
> > > > for
> > > > > > > a few hours before it hit me!)...
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > If the volunteer does as you say, then I would agree, there
> > isn't
> > > > any
> > > > > > > added/assumed responsibility. One would hope they have their
> > own
> > > > > > > sense of responsibility and treat the homeless people kindly,
> > but
> > > > > > > that's about it.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > However... if the volunteer does good work and is consequently
> > asked
> > > > > > > to become a permanent volunteer by an existing group of
> > permanent
> > > > > > > volunteers, and as a result is given some degree of authority to
> > > > make
> > > > > > > decisions that will affect those that come to the shelter, then
> > I
> > > > > > > think there is definitely a higher level of responsibility to
> > that
> > > > > > > "community" of homeless, as well of course to the other
> > permanent
> > > > > > > volunteers. Again, as I've said all along, the degree of extra
> > > > > > > responsibility I think is debatable.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > In your original analogy, the volunteer would be someone like
> > > > me. In
> > > > > > > my modified version, they would be a committer. At least in my
> > > > eyes,
> > > > > > > there is a difference.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Excellent analogy though, you definitely made me think and
> > evaluate
> > > > my
> > > > > > > position, I appreciate that! :)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >> Steve
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Frank
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> > > > > > > For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> > > > > > For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> > > > > For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > __________________________________________________
> > > > Do You Yahoo!?
> > > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> > > > http://mail.yahoo.com
> > > >
> > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> > > > For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > "You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its
> > back."
> > > ~Dakota Jack~
> > >
> > >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> "You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back."
> ~Dakota Jack~
>
>
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Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Dakota Jack <da...@gmail.com>.
I really do see these fallacies coming up at all. The fallacies which
typically come up are ones like: (1) argument ad hominem; (2) appeal to
authority; (3) appeal to common practice; (4) appeal to emotion; (5) appeal
to flattery; (6) appleal to popularity; (7) appeal to riducle; (8) biased
sample. These seem to have a life of their own. Yours are, so far as I can
see, never around. Could you give an example from someone's submission on
this list?
Tapestry is as diverse as JSF and is in Apache as well as Struts, yet no one
in Struts has ever complained about Tapestry. (Tapestry, by the way, does,
in my opinion, what JSF wants to do better than JSF does it. If JSF should
have tried to "horn in" for branding purposes, Tapestry wo0uld have been a
better choice than Struts.) However, if Craig had tried that, Howard
Lewis-Ship would have made him go through what everyone else goes through,
leading to JSF, inevitably, being show the door.
This discussion is not about diversity. That is Ted's pronouncement which
is unrelated to the facts. This discussion is about greed and branding and
JSF's difficulties getting a toe hold in the mind and eye of the public, I
don't know of a single soul that does not wish JSF well when it is not
pushed on someone. Ted is right that committers on this list do what they
want to do. And, he is right that the committer clique decided to jump into
bed with Craig and JSF. There are committer feet sticking out all over
under the covers of JSF and Shale. This is not to promote diversity. This
was to serve themselves. That is irresponsible to their elected position.
Ted's idea that serving an open source community is one way to do your job
is a big part of the problem, not a part of the solution, around here.
Frequently we find developers coding away to make something in Struts fit
what they need on the job rather than what Struts needs. This has been
especially prevalent the last year and a half. Ted finds this perfect. I
think it is an abomination. The motivation for working in open source used
to be more due to a desire to do top quality work, something many bright
people were stopped from doing at work or otherwise frustrated about. Now
my job, I don't know about yours, does more exciting work than anyone at
Struts even has a dream about. Spring and other places are working on
exciting, clean, real, stuff. This attempt to sell JSF has turned Struts
into slogging away at best.
Struts, in my opinion, by tying itself to the think and the values of a
commercial product has completely lost track of any sense of what is and
what is not open source and what is community. The entry to assisting on
these things as a committer used to be merit based in the sense that you had
some talent and could work with others. Now it is a club based on balancing
the voting blocs. When Ted started, he could just jump in after showing
that he was no fool, and start helping. Those real open source days at
Struts are over at this point. Now any indication that you might actually
make Struts grow or have something new and interesting to offer is a sure
sign that you will be rejected. Things have gotten so bad with this that
the committers had to admit that they essentially had killed Struts and
needed to get some help from some people who really had been doing open
source work. Those people will find, I predict, that they made a mistake
coming here and that the Struts name was not worth it.
On 3/19/06, Mark Lowe <me...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 3/19/06, Dakota Jack <da...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Indeed! Hoo hah! Has anyone asked why Tapestry, which is just JSF done
> > well in my opinion, is causing no difficulties on the Struts list?
>
> Diveristy is important, even those who don't agree with a darwinian
> model seem to agree with this. Trying to push one size fits all would
> seem to reflect an intollerance of ambiguity and perhaps demonstrates
> more about an indiviual's personality traits than a genuine balanced
> opinion. Who really cares that much if this or that framework is
> superiour or not according to this or that principle, blue print
> and/or design pattern. All will be ultimately evaluated in the cold
> light of market forces (including available skills, development
> time/cost, and maintainance).
>
> Here are some of the fallacies that keep comming up
>
> Affirmation of the consequent
> if i create software according to x design pattern is will cost less
> and be higher quality,
> the app was built according to x design pattern,
> therefore the app cost less and is of higher quality.
>
> Denial of the antecedent
> if i create software according to x design pattern is will cost less
> and be higher quality,
> my software didn't cost less and isn't high quality,
> therefore it doesn't follow x design pattern.
>
> I actually agree that certain patterns help facilitate positive
> outcomes, but attempting to propose that sucess and failure are merely
> a function of choice of framework or the framework's strict adherence
> to x design pattern is just plain silly. Albeit I've a foot (or
> perhaps both feet) strongly in the silly camp because I'm engaging in
> this sort of futile dialogue.
>
> Mark
>
> >
> > On 3/18/06, Paul Benedict <pa...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > >> Ted's central principle that "darwin decides"
> > >
> > > This is a false principle in the terms of software development.
> > > You don't have blind forces assembling the source code of Struts,
> > > but real living people who can see what people want and choose
> > > to write a solution for it. People decide in ASF, not Darwin.
> > > If the Commiters want Struts to succeed into the future, they need
> > > to always have passion and dedication to keep up with the demands
> > > of the MVC market. Any philosophy which reduces Struts to "a gaggle of
> > > engineers", I think, is a reductionist viewpoint; the problem is
> > > much bigger than engineers just wanting to solve problems. That's
> > > why other ASF projects like Tomcat and Tapestry are big winners and
> > > continue to be big winners: a passion to to be successful with
> > > whatever they craft, and a desire to see their projects be the best
> > > at what they are in the industry. I totally see this passion in
> Craig's
> > > work - let's transfer some of that energy into Struts Action
> Framework...
> > > and it's finally happening (again) with WW2.
> > >
> > > Paul
> > >
> > > --- Mark Lowe <me...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > I've stayed out of this silly thread up until now, but i guess its
> > > > time to be silly as well..
> > > >
> > > > Now I imagine that I'll get burned by micheal o'grady (dakota jack)
> > > > for quoting this, but Ted's central principle that "darwin decides"
> is
> > > > a sound one. Its sound because it's also a principle that doesn't
> > > > state that struts or anything is good because its better or because
> he
> > > > influenced a group of people to act in a certain way, but because a
> > > > technology survives the ecological pressures of the economy and
> > > > projects that adopt such a approach remain profitable.
> > > >
> > > > Now natural selection doesn't produce perfection, even in biology,
> but
> > > > what you can be sure if is that any organism that lives today has
> been
> > > > begat by organisms that have survived "well enough". If best
> technical
> > > > solutions always won then betamax would have won the video wars.
> > > >
> > > > While struts is adopted and projects survive the ecological
> pressures
> > > > of engineering and economics it will probably survive. If a
> different
> > > > technoloy is adopted by other folk and they can knock out projects
> for
> > > > less then they will "probably" outlive struts or at least have a
> > > > better chance.
> > > >
> > > > But all these abstract principles of perfection serve very little.
> > > > From a darwinian perspective a ford motor car is more successful
> than
> > > > a ferrari. Now my understanding of the apache development that if
> > > > solutions (commits, patches etc) are best when they are real world
> > > > solutions, by facilitating these "adaptations" software is more
> likey
> > > > to survive ecological pressures because the adaptations are in
> direct
> > > > response to the enviornment in which these products find themselves.
> > > >
> > > > The other important factor to have a healthy ecosystem that there is
> > > > never a single organism/technology that covers all niches. Its also
> > > > true that in a single ecosystem there are never two organisms that
> > > > occupy the same niche for very long. This is nature, and I don't see
> > > > the human activity of software development being very different.
> > > >
> > > > I could carry on, but I wont.. What the main point is that it
> doesn't
> > > > really matter what anyone thinks of this and that. What will survive
> > > > will survive (excuse the tautology). Ferrari survives as does ford
> > > > (albeit from selling the financial products to buy their goods) they
> > > > occupy different niches. In the case of betamax and vhs only one
> > > > survived because they occupy the same niche. All any of us can do is
> > > > try and knock out projects as best and as cheaply as possible, and
> > > > darwin will decide the rest. Central to a good ecosystem is
> diversity.
> > > >
> > > > Mark
> > > >
> > > > On 3/18/06, Steve Raeburn <sr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > I think the flaw in my analogy is that nobody will starve if they
> > > choose
> > > > > not to eat at the Struts shelter :-)
> > > > >
> > > > > Steve
> > > > >
> > > > > Frank W. Zammetti wrote:
> > > > > > Steve Raeburn wrote:
> > > > > >> Let me try another analogy. Let's say you go down to volunteer
> at a
> > > > > >> homeless shelter. You serve a few meals and wipe a few tables a
> > > > > >> couple of times a month. Do you become bound by any
> responsibility
> > > > > >> other than to show up and help? Do you become responsible for
> > > solving
> > > > > >> the homeless problem? Should you feel obligated to give someone
> a
> > > > > >> bed? Some people may feel they do have such a responsibility.
> > > Others
> > > > > >> won't. It's not my place to criticize a volunteer for not
> taking on
> > > > > >> those additional responsibilities. I am just grateful that
> you've
> > > > > >> just done a little bit to help out.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > That's a good analogy, it took me a while to figure out why it
> > > wasn't
> > > > > > right for me with my position in mind (you had me doubting
> myself
> > > for
> > > > > > a few hours before it hit me!)...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > If the volunteer does as you say, then I would agree, there
> isn't
> > > any
> > > > > > added/assumed responsibility. One would hope they have their
> own
> > > > > > sense of responsibility and treat the homeless people kindly,
> but
> > > > > > that's about it.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > However... if the volunteer does good work and is consequently
> asked
> > > > > > to become a permanent volunteer by an existing group of
> permanent
> > > > > > volunteers, and as a result is given some degree of authority to
> > > make
> > > > > > decisions that will affect those that come to the shelter, then
> I
> > > > > > think there is definitely a higher level of responsibility to
> that
> > > > > > "community" of homeless, as well of course to the other
> permanent
> > > > > > volunteers. Again, as I've said all along, the degree of extra
> > > > > > responsibility I think is debatable.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > In your original analogy, the volunteer would be someone like
> > > me. In
> > > > > > my modified version, they would be a committer. At least in my
> > > eyes,
> > > > > > there is a difference.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Excellent analogy though, you definitely made me think and
> evaluate
> > > my
> > > > > > position, I appreciate that! :)
> > > > > >
> > > > > >> Steve
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Frank
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> > > > > > For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> > > > > For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> > > > For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > __________________________________________________
> > > Do You Yahoo!?
> > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> > > http://mail.yahoo.com
> > >
> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> > > For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > "You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its
> back."
> > ~Dakota Jack~
> >
> >
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
>
>
--
"You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back."
~Dakota Jack~
Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Mark Lowe <me...@gmail.com>.
On 3/19/06, Dakota Jack <da...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Indeed! Hoo hah! Has anyone asked why Tapestry, which is just JSF done
> well in my opinion, is causing no difficulties on the Struts list?
Diveristy is important, even those who don't agree with a darwinian
model seem to agree with this. Trying to push one size fits all would
seem to reflect an intollerance of ambiguity and perhaps demonstrates
more about an indiviual's personality traits than a genuine balanced
opinion. Who really cares that much if this or that framework is
superiour or not according to this or that principle, blue print
and/or design pattern. All will be ultimately evaluated in the cold
light of market forces (including available skills, development
time/cost, and maintainance).
Here are some of the fallacies that keep comming up
Affirmation of the consequent
if i create software according to x design pattern is will cost less
and be higher quality,
the app was built according to x design pattern,
therefore the app cost less and is of higher quality.
Denial of the antecedent
if i create software according to x design pattern is will cost less
and be higher quality,
my software didn't cost less and isn't high quality,
therefore it doesn't follow x design pattern.
I actually agree that certain patterns help facilitate positive
outcomes, but attempting to propose that sucess and failure are merely
a function of choice of framework or the framework's strict adherence
to x design pattern is just plain silly. Albeit I've a foot (or
perhaps both feet) strongly in the silly camp because I'm engaging in
this sort of futile dialogue.
Mark
>
> On 3/18/06, Paul Benedict <pa...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> > >> Ted's central principle that "darwin decides"
> >
> > This is a false principle in the terms of software development.
> > You don't have blind forces assembling the source code of Struts,
> > but real living people who can see what people want and choose
> > to write a solution for it. People decide in ASF, not Darwin.
> > If the Commiters want Struts to succeed into the future, they need
> > to always have passion and dedication to keep up with the demands
> > of the MVC market. Any philosophy which reduces Struts to "a gaggle of
> > engineers", I think, is a reductionist viewpoint; the problem is
> > much bigger than engineers just wanting to solve problems. That's
> > why other ASF projects like Tomcat and Tapestry are big winners and
> > continue to be big winners: a passion to to be successful with
> > whatever they craft, and a desire to see their projects be the best
> > at what they are in the industry. I totally see this passion in Craig's
> > work - let's transfer some of that energy into Struts Action Framework...
> > and it's finally happening (again) with WW2.
> >
> > Paul
> >
> > --- Mark Lowe <me...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > I've stayed out of this silly thread up until now, but i guess its
> > > time to be silly as well..
> > >
> > > Now I imagine that I'll get burned by micheal o'grady (dakota jack)
> > > for quoting this, but Ted's central principle that "darwin decides" is
> > > a sound one. Its sound because it's also a principle that doesn't
> > > state that struts or anything is good because its better or because he
> > > influenced a group of people to act in a certain way, but because a
> > > technology survives the ecological pressures of the economy and
> > > projects that adopt such a approach remain profitable.
> > >
> > > Now natural selection doesn't produce perfection, even in biology, but
> > > what you can be sure if is that any organism that lives today has been
> > > begat by organisms that have survived "well enough". If best technical
> > > solutions always won then betamax would have won the video wars.
> > >
> > > While struts is adopted and projects survive the ecological pressures
> > > of engineering and economics it will probably survive. If a different
> > > technoloy is adopted by other folk and they can knock out projects for
> > > less then they will "probably" outlive struts or at least have a
> > > better chance.
> > >
> > > But all these abstract principles of perfection serve very little.
> > > From a darwinian perspective a ford motor car is more successful than
> > > a ferrari. Now my understanding of the apache development that if
> > > solutions (commits, patches etc) are best when they are real world
> > > solutions, by facilitating these "adaptations" software is more likey
> > > to survive ecological pressures because the adaptations are in direct
> > > response to the enviornment in which these products find themselves.
> > >
> > > The other important factor to have a healthy ecosystem that there is
> > > never a single organism/technology that covers all niches. Its also
> > > true that in a single ecosystem there are never two organisms that
> > > occupy the same niche for very long. This is nature, and I don't see
> > > the human activity of software development being very different.
> > >
> > > I could carry on, but I wont.. What the main point is that it doesn't
> > > really matter what anyone thinks of this and that. What will survive
> > > will survive (excuse the tautology). Ferrari survives as does ford
> > > (albeit from selling the financial products to buy their goods) they
> > > occupy different niches. In the case of betamax and vhs only one
> > > survived because they occupy the same niche. All any of us can do is
> > > try and knock out projects as best and as cheaply as possible, and
> > > darwin will decide the rest. Central to a good ecosystem is diversity.
> > >
> > > Mark
> > >
> > > On 3/18/06, Steve Raeburn <sr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > I think the flaw in my analogy is that nobody will starve if they
> > choose
> > > > not to eat at the Struts shelter :-)
> > > >
> > > > Steve
> > > >
> > > > Frank W. Zammetti wrote:
> > > > > Steve Raeburn wrote:
> > > > >> Let me try another analogy. Let's say you go down to volunteer at a
> > > > >> homeless shelter. You serve a few meals and wipe a few tables a
> > > > >> couple of times a month. Do you become bound by any responsibility
> > > > >> other than to show up and help? Do you become responsible for
> > solving
> > > > >> the homeless problem? Should you feel obligated to give someone a
> > > > >> bed? Some people may feel they do have such a responsibility.
> > Others
> > > > >> won't. It's not my place to criticize a volunteer for not taking on
> > > > >> those additional responsibilities. I am just grateful that you've
> > > > >> just done a little bit to help out.
> > > > >
> > > > > That's a good analogy, it took me a while to figure out why it
> > wasn't
> > > > > right for me with my position in mind (you had me doubting myself
> > for
> > > > > a few hours before it hit me!)...
> > > > >
> > > > > If the volunteer does as you say, then I would agree, there isn't
> > any
> > > > > added/assumed responsibility. One would hope they have their own
> > > > > sense of responsibility and treat the homeless people kindly, but
> > > > > that's about it.
> > > > >
> > > > > However... if the volunteer does good work and is consequently asked
> > > > > to become a permanent volunteer by an existing group of permanent
> > > > > volunteers, and as a result is given some degree of authority to
> > make
> > > > > decisions that will affect those that come to the shelter, then I
> > > > > think there is definitely a higher level of responsibility to that
> > > > > "community" of homeless, as well of course to the other permanent
> > > > > volunteers. Again, as I've said all along, the degree of extra
> > > > > responsibility I think is debatable.
> > > > >
> > > > > In your original analogy, the volunteer would be someone like
> > me. In
> > > > > my modified version, they would be a committer. At least in my
> > eyes,
> > > > > there is a difference.
> > > > >
> > > > > Excellent analogy though, you definitely made me think and evaluate
> > my
> > > > > position, I appreciate that! :)
> > > > >
> > > > >> Steve
> > > > >
> > > > > Frank
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> > > > > For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> > > > For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> > > For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> > http://mail.yahoo.com
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> "You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back."
> ~Dakota Jack~
>
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Dakota Jack <da...@gmail.com>.
Indeed! Hoo hah! Has anyone asked why Tapestry, which is just JSF done
well in my opinion, is causing no difficulties on the Struts list?
On 3/18/06, Paul Benedict <pa...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >> Ted's central principle that "darwin decides"
>
> This is a false principle in the terms of software development.
> You don't have blind forces assembling the source code of Struts,
> but real living people who can see what people want and choose
> to write a solution for it. People decide in ASF, not Darwin.
> If the Commiters want Struts to succeed into the future, they need
> to always have passion and dedication to keep up with the demands
> of the MVC market. Any philosophy which reduces Struts to "a gaggle of
> engineers", I think, is a reductionist viewpoint; the problem is
> much bigger than engineers just wanting to solve problems. That's
> why other ASF projects like Tomcat and Tapestry are big winners and
> continue to be big winners: a passion to to be successful with
> whatever they craft, and a desire to see their projects be the best
> at what they are in the industry. I totally see this passion in Craig's
> work - let's transfer some of that energy into Struts Action Framework...
> and it's finally happening (again) with WW2.
>
> Paul
>
> --- Mark Lowe <me...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > I've stayed out of this silly thread up until now, but i guess its
> > time to be silly as well..
> >
> > Now I imagine that I'll get burned by micheal o'grady (dakota jack)
> > for quoting this, but Ted's central principle that "darwin decides" is
> > a sound one. Its sound because it's also a principle that doesn't
> > state that struts or anything is good because its better or because he
> > influenced a group of people to act in a certain way, but because a
> > technology survives the ecological pressures of the economy and
> > projects that adopt such a approach remain profitable.
> >
> > Now natural selection doesn't produce perfection, even in biology, but
> > what you can be sure if is that any organism that lives today has been
> > begat by organisms that have survived "well enough". If best technical
> > solutions always won then betamax would have won the video wars.
> >
> > While struts is adopted and projects survive the ecological pressures
> > of engineering and economics it will probably survive. If a different
> > technoloy is adopted by other folk and they can knock out projects for
> > less then they will "probably" outlive struts or at least have a
> > better chance.
> >
> > But all these abstract principles of perfection serve very little.
> > From a darwinian perspective a ford motor car is more successful than
> > a ferrari. Now my understanding of the apache development that if
> > solutions (commits, patches etc) are best when they are real world
> > solutions, by facilitating these "adaptations" software is more likey
> > to survive ecological pressures because the adaptations are in direct
> > response to the enviornment in which these products find themselves.
> >
> > The other important factor to have a healthy ecosystem that there is
> > never a single organism/technology that covers all niches. Its also
> > true that in a single ecosystem there are never two organisms that
> > occupy the same niche for very long. This is nature, and I don't see
> > the human activity of software development being very different.
> >
> > I could carry on, but I wont.. What the main point is that it doesn't
> > really matter what anyone thinks of this and that. What will survive
> > will survive (excuse the tautology). Ferrari survives as does ford
> > (albeit from selling the financial products to buy their goods) they
> > occupy different niches. In the case of betamax and vhs only one
> > survived because they occupy the same niche. All any of us can do is
> > try and knock out projects as best and as cheaply as possible, and
> > darwin will decide the rest. Central to a good ecosystem is diversity.
> >
> > Mark
> >
> > On 3/18/06, Steve Raeburn <sr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > I think the flaw in my analogy is that nobody will starve if they
> choose
> > > not to eat at the Struts shelter :-)
> > >
> > > Steve
> > >
> > > Frank W. Zammetti wrote:
> > > > Steve Raeburn wrote:
> > > >> Let me try another analogy. Let's say you go down to volunteer at a
> > > >> homeless shelter. You serve a few meals and wipe a few tables a
> > > >> couple of times a month. Do you become bound by any responsibility
> > > >> other than to show up and help? Do you become responsible for
> solving
> > > >> the homeless problem? Should you feel obligated to give someone a
> > > >> bed? Some people may feel they do have such a responsibility.
> Others
> > > >> won't. It's not my place to criticize a volunteer for not taking on
> > > >> those additional responsibilities. I am just grateful that you've
> > > >> just done a little bit to help out.
> > > >
> > > > That's a good analogy, it took me a while to figure out why it
> wasn't
> > > > right for me with my position in mind (you had me doubting myself
> for
> > > > a few hours before it hit me!)...
> > > >
> > > > If the volunteer does as you say, then I would agree, there isn't
> any
> > > > added/assumed responsibility. One would hope they have their own
> > > > sense of responsibility and treat the homeless people kindly, but
> > > > that's about it.
> > > >
> > > > However... if the volunteer does good work and is consequently asked
> > > > to become a permanent volunteer by an existing group of permanent
> > > > volunteers, and as a result is given some degree of authority to
> make
> > > > decisions that will affect those that come to the shelter, then I
> > > > think there is definitely a higher level of responsibility to that
> > > > "community" of homeless, as well of course to the other permanent
> > > > volunteers. Again, as I've said all along, the degree of extra
> > > > responsibility I think is debatable.
> > > >
> > > > In your original analogy, the volunteer would be someone like
> me. In
> > > > my modified version, they would be a committer. At least in my
> eyes,
> > > > there is a difference.
> > > >
> > > > Excellent analogy though, you definitely made me think and evaluate
> my
> > > > position, I appreciate that! :)
> > > >
> > > >> Steve
> > > >
> > > > Frank
> > > >
> > > >
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> > > > For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> > > For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
> > >
> > >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
> >
> >
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
>
>
--
"You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back."
~Dakota Jack~
Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Paul Benedict <pa...@yahoo.com>.
>> Ted's central principle that "darwin decides"
This is a false principle in the terms of software development.
You don't have blind forces assembling the source code of Struts,
but real living people who can see what people want and choose
to write a solution for it. People decide in ASF, not Darwin.
If the Commiters want Struts to succeed into the future, they need
to always have passion and dedication to keep up with the demands
of the MVC market. Any philosophy which reduces Struts to "a gaggle of
engineers", I think, is a reductionist viewpoint; the problem is
much bigger than engineers just wanting to solve problems. That's
why other ASF projects like Tomcat and Tapestry are big winners and
continue to be big winners: a passion to to be successful with
whatever they craft, and a desire to see their projects be the best
at what they are in the industry. I totally see this passion in Craig's
work - let's transfer some of that energy into Struts Action Framework...
and it's finally happening (again) with WW2.
Paul
--- Mark Lowe <me...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I've stayed out of this silly thread up until now, but i guess its
> time to be silly as well..
>
> Now I imagine that I'll get burned by micheal o'grady (dakota jack)
> for quoting this, but Ted's central principle that "darwin decides" is
> a sound one. Its sound because it's also a principle that doesn't
> state that struts or anything is good because its better or because he
> influenced a group of people to act in a certain way, but because a
> technology survives the ecological pressures of the economy and
> projects that adopt such a approach remain profitable.
>
> Now natural selection doesn't produce perfection, even in biology, but
> what you can be sure if is that any organism that lives today has been
> begat by organisms that have survived "well enough". If best technical
> solutions always won then betamax would have won the video wars.
>
> While struts is adopted and projects survive the ecological pressures
> of engineering and economics it will probably survive. If a different
> technoloy is adopted by other folk and they can knock out projects for
> less then they will "probably" outlive struts or at least have a
> better chance.
>
> But all these abstract principles of perfection serve very little.
> From a darwinian perspective a ford motor car is more successful than
> a ferrari. Now my understanding of the apache development that if
> solutions (commits, patches etc) are best when they are real world
> solutions, by facilitating these "adaptations" software is more likey
> to survive ecological pressures because the adaptations are in direct
> response to the enviornment in which these products find themselves.
>
> The other important factor to have a healthy ecosystem that there is
> never a single organism/technology that covers all niches. Its also
> true that in a single ecosystem there are never two organisms that
> occupy the same niche for very long. This is nature, and I don't see
> the human activity of software development being very different.
>
> I could carry on, but I wont.. What the main point is that it doesn't
> really matter what anyone thinks of this and that. What will survive
> will survive (excuse the tautology). Ferrari survives as does ford
> (albeit from selling the financial products to buy their goods) they
> occupy different niches. In the case of betamax and vhs only one
> survived because they occupy the same niche. All any of us can do is
> try and knock out projects as best and as cheaply as possible, and
> darwin will decide the rest. Central to a good ecosystem is diversity.
>
> Mark
>
> On 3/18/06, Steve Raeburn <sr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > I think the flaw in my analogy is that nobody will starve if they choose
> > not to eat at the Struts shelter :-)
> >
> > Steve
> >
> > Frank W. Zammetti wrote:
> > > Steve Raeburn wrote:
> > >> Let me try another analogy. Let's say you go down to volunteer at a
> > >> homeless shelter. You serve a few meals and wipe a few tables a
> > >> couple of times a month. Do you become bound by any responsibility
> > >> other than to show up and help? Do you become responsible for solving
> > >> the homeless problem? Should you feel obligated to give someone a
> > >> bed? Some people may feel they do have such a responsibility. Others
> > >> won't. It's not my place to criticize a volunteer for not taking on
> > >> those additional responsibilities. I am just grateful that you've
> > >> just done a little bit to help out.
> > >
> > > That's a good analogy, it took me a while to figure out why it wasn't
> > > right for me with my position in mind (you had me doubting myself for
> > > a few hours before it hit me!)...
> > >
> > > If the volunteer does as you say, then I would agree, there isn't any
> > > added/assumed responsibility. One would hope they have their own
> > > sense of responsibility and treat the homeless people kindly, but
> > > that's about it.
> > >
> > > However... if the volunteer does good work and is consequently asked
> > > to become a permanent volunteer by an existing group of permanent
> > > volunteers, and as a result is given some degree of authority to make
> > > decisions that will affect those that come to the shelter, then I
> > > think there is definitely a higher level of responsibility to that
> > > "community" of homeless, as well of course to the other permanent
> > > volunteers. Again, as I've said all along, the degree of extra
> > > responsibility I think is debatable.
> > >
> > > In your original analogy, the volunteer would be someone like me. In
> > > my modified version, they would be a committer. At least in my eyes,
> > > there is a difference.
> > >
> > > Excellent analogy though, you definitely made me think and evaluate my
> > > position, I appreciate that! :)
> > >
> > >> Steve
> > >
> > > Frank
> > >
> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> > > For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
> >
> >
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
>
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Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Dakota Jack <da...@gmail.com>.
But, Mark, a diverse "ecosystem" does not have bears and fish in the same
cave. These silly analogies are just a way of avoiding talk about the real
thing. Ted does that all the time, substitutes wacky philosophy for
engineering and process discussions.
Also, Mark, a chair, a bear, and a piece of software have different
relationships a la Darwin. Chairs and software are not natural entities.
Suggesting that Darwin will decide is cute, but, as you acknowledge, silly.
Good for speechifying, but bad for logic.
On 3/18/06, Mark Lowe <me...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Ted's central principle that "darwin decides" is
> a sound one. Its sound because it's also a principle that doesn't
> state that struts or anything is good because its better or because he
> influenced a group of people to act in a certain way, but because a
> technology survives the ecological pressures of the economy and
> projects that adopt such a approach remain profitable.
> ........................
> I could carry on, but I wont.. What the main point is that it doesn't
> really matter what anyone thinks of this and that. What will survive
> will survive (excuse the tautology). Ferrari survives as does ford
> (albeit from selling the financial products to buy their goods) they
> occupy different niches. In the case of betamax and vhs only one
> survived because they occupy the same niche. All any of us can do is
> try and knock out projects as best and as cheaply as possible, and
> darwin will decide the rest. Central to a good ecosystem is diversity.
>
>
--
"You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back."
~Dakota Jack~
Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Dakota Jack <da...@gmail.com>.
What you probably mean is that "market forces" will decide, but cannot bring
yourself to say "market forces". That is too "un-community" like, so Darwin
decides is better?
Let me make a suggestion, if only for the advancement of the clarity of
thought. Let's talk about the economic pressures of the economy and the
ecological pressures of the ecology. Let's stop talking about the economic
pressures of the ecology or the ecological presssures of the economy.
The recent (30 years ago or so) advancements in the study of the relation of
chaos to ecology and to the economy as well as to biology, to steel
manufacturing, etc., by the way, make all of this talk so outdated as to
remind me of plotiston theory, once in the mix but now out of the running..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phlogiston_theory . The problem is that the
silly religion people have tied so many things to Darwin being wrong that
now scientists are afraid to let the public know that Darwin, like every
other serious theoretical flucrum, Keplar, Newton, Aristotle, has turned out
to be wrong in a fundamental way.
This talk about Darwin decides just shows the poverty of thought at the top
level around here. It is as if they tipped the country on end and
everything loose became a Struts committer or devotee.
I have to also tell you, Mark, no one except in a very peripheral sense gets
any money from Struts unless you write books (Ted, etc.) or get paid to do
it (Craig, etc.). The Darwin analogy is sooooooooooooo bad. Please bring
something more to the table than that. People that want to discuss the very
real problems of Struts and there relationship to the mix of JSF and Struts
would really appreciate it if you and the likes of you would please stay on
the ball. Thanks so much.
<glug>
On 3/18/06, Mark Lowe <me...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Its sound because it's also a principle that doesn't
> state that struts or anything is good because its better or because he
> influenced a group of people to act in a certain way, but because a
> technology survives the ecological pressures of the economy and
> projects that adopt such a approach remain profitable.
> </glug>
>
--
"You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back."
~Dakota Jack~
Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Mark Lowe <me...@gmail.com>.
I've stayed out of this silly thread up until now, but i guess its
time to be silly as well..
Now I imagine that I'll get burned by micheal o'grady (dakota jack)
for quoting this, but Ted's central principle that "darwin decides" is
a sound one. Its sound because it's also a principle that doesn't
state that struts or anything is good because its better or because he
influenced a group of people to act in a certain way, but because a
technology survives the ecological pressures of the economy and
projects that adopt such a approach remain profitable.
Now natural selection doesn't produce perfection, even in biology, but
what you can be sure if is that any organism that lives today has been
begat by organisms that have survived "well enough". If best technical
solutions always won then betamax would have won the video wars.
While struts is adopted and projects survive the ecological pressures
of engineering and economics it will probably survive. If a different
technoloy is adopted by other folk and they can knock out projects for
less then they will "probably" outlive struts or at least have a
better chance.
But all these abstract principles of perfection serve very little.
>From a darwinian perspective a ford motor car is more successful than
a ferrari. Now my understanding of the apache development that if
solutions (commits, patches etc) are best when they are real world
solutions, by facilitating these "adaptations" software is more likey
to survive ecological pressures because the adaptations are in direct
response to the enviornment in which these products find themselves.
The other important factor to have a healthy ecosystem that there is
never a single organism/technology that covers all niches. Its also
true that in a single ecosystem there are never two organisms that
occupy the same niche for very long. This is nature, and I don't see
the human activity of software development being very different.
I could carry on, but I wont.. What the main point is that it doesn't
really matter what anyone thinks of this and that. What will survive
will survive (excuse the tautology). Ferrari survives as does ford
(albeit from selling the financial products to buy their goods) they
occupy different niches. In the case of betamax and vhs only one
survived because they occupy the same niche. All any of us can do is
try and knock out projects as best and as cheaply as possible, and
darwin will decide the rest. Central to a good ecosystem is diversity.
Mark
On 3/18/06, Steve Raeburn <sr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I think the flaw in my analogy is that nobody will starve if they choose
> not to eat at the Struts shelter :-)
>
> Steve
>
> Frank W. Zammetti wrote:
> > Steve Raeburn wrote:
> >> Let me try another analogy. Let's say you go down to volunteer at a
> >> homeless shelter. You serve a few meals and wipe a few tables a
> >> couple of times a month. Do you become bound by any responsibility
> >> other than to show up and help? Do you become responsible for solving
> >> the homeless problem? Should you feel obligated to give someone a
> >> bed? Some people may feel they do have such a responsibility. Others
> >> won't. It's not my place to criticize a volunteer for not taking on
> >> those additional responsibilities. I am just grateful that you've
> >> just done a little bit to help out.
> >
> > That's a good analogy, it took me a while to figure out why it wasn't
> > right for me with my position in mind (you had me doubting myself for
> > a few hours before it hit me!)...
> >
> > If the volunteer does as you say, then I would agree, there isn't any
> > added/assumed responsibility. One would hope they have their own
> > sense of responsibility and treat the homeless people kindly, but
> > that's about it.
> >
> > However... if the volunteer does good work and is consequently asked
> > to become a permanent volunteer by an existing group of permanent
> > volunteers, and as a result is given some degree of authority to make
> > decisions that will affect those that come to the shelter, then I
> > think there is definitely a higher level of responsibility to that
> > "community" of homeless, as well of course to the other permanent
> > volunteers. Again, as I've said all along, the degree of extra
> > responsibility I think is debatable.
> >
> > In your original analogy, the volunteer would be someone like me. In
> > my modified version, they would be a committer. At least in my eyes,
> > there is a difference.
> >
> > Excellent analogy though, you definitely made me think and evaluate my
> > position, I appreciate that! :)
> >
> >> Steve
> >
> > Frank
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
> >
> >
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
>
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Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Dakota Jack <da...@gmail.com>.
No, Mark, as usual you set a whole new dimension.
On 3/18/06, Mark Lowe <me...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Phlogiston was an element that helped scientists explain why things
> burnt.. It worked for a while (the model could explain the observed
> phenomona) until the observation was made that when weighing the
> chemical products of burning found that things didn't add up. Its a
> good example of selection at a non biological level.
>
> Chairs, tables, technical blueprints, whatever, all must survive the
> tests of time in some way shape form. What you are claiming is that
> political activties are more at play than ecological presures (yes
> like market forces). This reminds me of Feyerband's scientific
> relativism, you can say that galileo's ideas were adopted by their
> truth content (or that they provided a reasonable model in which to
> explain observation) or that he was good at selling telescopes to sea
> merchants in his day and/or he published his works in italian and not
> latin. If this is the position, then i'd have to disagree. No matter
> how many paradigm shifts scientific modeling undergoes, its truth
> content can be justified in terms of the things you can do with it
> (fly, build bridges, make software).
>
> I dont see the irrelevance of the principle that darwin decides.. The
> models you're vaguely half quoting survive or not, based their
> applications. Newtonian mechanics might be mistaken in a fundamental
> sense but its still useful. Merely saying its "fundamentally wrong" is
> just sloppy, vague and fails to say anything. Yes there are those that
> argue against certain interpretations of darwin, but very few agrue
> against natural selection.
>
> Software, approaches to software, dvd formats, chairs, scientific
> models, must all survive ecological pressures of some kind. This is
> like like stating "there will or wont be a ship battle tommorrow", or
> p == true || p == false.
>
> I think the thread had deviated from anything vaguely useful from a
> genuine struts question long before i started waffling. But i dont
> think its entirely irrelevant..
>
> Mark
>
>
> On 3/18/06, Dakota Jack <da...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > You commit one of the largest howlers on the history of this list and
> you
> > just avoid it by saying this? You cannot even admit saying that
> committers
> > are not elected officials was a gaff of huge proportions? What we say
> > around here to people like this is "Man up!"
> >
> > <cough>
> > On 3/17/06, Steve Raeburn <sr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > I think the flaw in my analogy is that nobody will starve if they
> choose
> > > not to eat at the Struts shelter :-)
> > >
> > > Steve
> >
> >
> > </cough>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > "You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its
> back."
> > ~Dakota Jack~
> >
> >
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
>
>
--
"You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back."
~Dakota Jack~
Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Dakota Jack <da...@gmail.com>.
Here is what it said, Brae Sternvue, in case you forgot:
Subject: [VOTE] Steve Raeburn as a Struts Committer
After that there were some +1s, etc., and you were duly inducted. Now, that
"VOTE" is starting to look like an election. We could suppose you were not
elected to anything but just elected somehow. There is that thing there at
the end, however, viz., "Struts Committer", that looks like an official
title of some sort. Maybe you mean you are an elected official with no
responsiblities but only power, lovely power?
On 3/17/06, Steve Raeburn <sr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Frank W. Zammetti wrote:
> > That's certainly one interpretation. For me, the responsibility comes
> > with the position by default.
> > ...
> > What responsibilities do I have to my elected officials?
> This might be getting to the heart of why we see the responsibilities
> differently. The committers are not elected officials. They represent
> only themselves, and sometimes their companies. Therefore the only
> responsibility they have is to themselves. That doesn't mean they don't
> care about what other people want or think, just that they are not bound
> by any duty other than their own personal code of ethics.
>
> Let me try another analogy. Let's say you go down to volunteer at a
> homeless shelter. You serve a few meals and wipe a few tables a couple
> of times a month. Do you become bound by any responsibility other than
> to show up and help? Do you become responsible for solving the homeless
> problem? Should you feel obligated to give someone a bed? Some people
> may feel they do have such a responsibility. Others won't. It's not my
> place to criticize a volunteer for not taking on those additional
> responsibilities. I am just grateful that you've just done a little bit
> to help out.
>
> As for your response to my last question, I very much agree with you. I
> do not believe blind allegiance is *ever* a good thing. I question
> everything. I can be a real pain, believe me. But at some point you have
> to accept that your way might not be accepted by others. They key thing
> you said is respect. You have to give respect to earn it. The thing that
> pisses me off most on this list (and I'm certainly not talking about you
> here BTW) is people who have done nothing of value but who make personal
> attacks on others who have contributed a lot of time and effort to help
> them. Those people shouldn't be surprised that they don't get listened
> to. You know who you are.
>
> Steve
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
>
>
--
"You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back."
~Dakota Jack~
Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Mark Lowe <me...@gmail.com>.
Phlogiston was an element that helped scientists explain why things
burnt.. It worked for a while (the model could explain the observed
phenomona) until the observation was made that when weighing the
chemical products of burning found that things didn't add up. Its a
good example of selection at a non biological level.
Chairs, tables, technical blueprints, whatever, all must survive the
tests of time in some way shape form. What you are claiming is that
political activties are more at play than ecological presures (yes
like market forces). This reminds me of Feyerband's scientific
relativism, you can say that galileo's ideas were adopted by their
truth content (or that they provided a reasonable model in which to
explain observation) or that he was good at selling telescopes to sea
merchants in his day and/or he published his works in italian and not
latin. If this is the position, then i'd have to disagree. No matter
how many paradigm shifts scientific modeling undergoes, its truth
content can be justified in terms of the things you can do with it
(fly, build bridges, make software).
I dont see the irrelevance of the principle that darwin decides.. The
models you're vaguely half quoting survive or not, based their
applications. Newtonian mechanics might be mistaken in a fundamental
sense but its still useful. Merely saying its "fundamentally wrong" is
just sloppy, vague and fails to say anything. Yes there are those that
argue against certain interpretations of darwin, but very few agrue
against natural selection.
Software, approaches to software, dvd formats, chairs, scientific
models, must all survive ecological pressures of some kind. This is
like like stating "there will or wont be a ship battle tommorrow", or
p == true || p == false.
I think the thread had deviated from anything vaguely useful from a
genuine struts question long before i started waffling. But i dont
think its entirely irrelevant..
Mark
On 3/18/06, Dakota Jack <da...@gmail.com> wrote:
> You commit one of the largest howlers on the history of this list and you
> just avoid it by saying this? You cannot even admit saying that committers
> are not elected officials was a gaff of huge proportions? What we say
> around here to people like this is "Man up!"
>
> <cough>
> On 3/17/06, Steve Raeburn <sr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > I think the flaw in my analogy is that nobody will starve if they choose
> > not to eat at the Struts shelter :-)
> >
> > Steve
>
>
> </cough>
>
>
>
> --
> "You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back."
> ~Dakota Jack~
>
>
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Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Dakota Jack <da...@gmail.com>.
You commit one of the largest howlers on the history of this list and you
just avoid it by saying this? You cannot even admit saying that committers
are not elected officials was a gaff of huge proportions? What we say
around here to people like this is "Man up!"
<cough>
On 3/17/06, Steve Raeburn <sr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I think the flaw in my analogy is that nobody will starve if they choose
> not to eat at the Struts shelter :-)
>
> Steve
</cough>
--
"You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back."
~Dakota Jack~
Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Dakota Jack <da...@gmail.com>.
The analogy is so wrong, and so self-serving. You are batting 1000. The
analogy is as if you volunteered and then, due to the fact that you were
cute and promised to behave the way they wanted, the board of directors
elected you to the head of the finance committee, which you accepted. Now
are you just a volunteer? Well, if you handle it the way you do your
responsibilities with Struts, I guess so.
On 3/17/06, Steve Raeburn <sr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> Let me try another analogy. Let's say you go down to volunteer at a
> homeless shelter. You serve a few meals and wipe a few tables a couple
> of times a month. Do you become bound by any responsibility other than
> to show up and help? Do you become responsible for solving the homeless
> problem? Should you feel obligated to give someone a bed? Some people
> may feel they do have such a responsibility. Others won't. It's not my
> place to criticize a volunteer for not taking on those additional
> responsibilities. I am just grateful that you've just done a little bit
> to help out.
--
"You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back."
~Dakota Jack~
Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by "Frank W. Zammetti" <fz...@omnytex.com>.
Supplying the wheel, so you don't have to reinvent it!
On Sat, March 18, 2006 2:14 am, Steve Raeburn said:
> I think the flaw in my analogy is that nobody will starve if they choose
> not to eat at the Struts shelter :-)
That, and I suspect the soup is better at the Struts kitchen :)
LOL
Frank
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Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Steve Raeburn <sr...@gmail.com>.
I think the flaw in my analogy is that nobody will starve if they choose
not to eat at the Struts shelter :-)
Steve
Frank W. Zammetti wrote:
> Steve Raeburn wrote:
>> Let me try another analogy. Let's say you go down to volunteer at a
>> homeless shelter. You serve a few meals and wipe a few tables a
>> couple of times a month. Do you become bound by any responsibility
>> other than to show up and help? Do you become responsible for solving
>> the homeless problem? Should you feel obligated to give someone a
>> bed? Some people may feel they do have such a responsibility. Others
>> won't. It's not my place to criticize a volunteer for not taking on
>> those additional responsibilities. I am just grateful that you've
>> just done a little bit to help out.
>
> That's a good analogy, it took me a while to figure out why it wasn't
> right for me with my position in mind (you had me doubting myself for
> a few hours before it hit me!)...
>
> If the volunteer does as you say, then I would agree, there isn't any
> added/assumed responsibility. One would hope they have their own
> sense of responsibility and treat the homeless people kindly, but
> that's about it.
>
> However... if the volunteer does good work and is consequently asked
> to become a permanent volunteer by an existing group of permanent
> volunteers, and as a result is given some degree of authority to make
> decisions that will affect those that come to the shelter, then I
> think there is definitely a higher level of responsibility to that
> "community" of homeless, as well of course to the other permanent
> volunteers. Again, as I've said all along, the degree of extra
> responsibility I think is debatable.
>
> In your original analogy, the volunteer would be someone like me. In
> my modified version, they would be a committer. At least in my eyes,
> there is a difference.
>
> Excellent analogy though, you definitely made me think and evaluate my
> position, I appreciate that! :)
>
>> Steve
>
> Frank
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
>
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by "Frank W. Zammetti" <fz...@omnytex.com>.
Steve Raeburn wrote:
> Let me try another analogy. Let's say you go down to volunteer at a
> homeless shelter. You serve a few meals and wipe a few tables a couple
> of times a month. Do you become bound by any responsibility other than
> to show up and help? Do you become responsible for solving the homeless
> problem? Should you feel obligated to give someone a bed? Some people
> may feel they do have such a responsibility. Others won't. It's not my
> place to criticize a volunteer for not taking on those additional
> responsibilities. I am just grateful that you've just done a little bit
> to help out.
That's a good analogy, it took me a while to figure out why it wasn't
right for me with my position in mind (you had me doubting myself for a
few hours before it hit me!)...
If the volunteer does as you say, then I would agree, there isn't any
added/assumed responsibility. One would hope they have their own sense
of responsibility and treat the homeless people kindly, but that's about it.
However... if the volunteer does good work and is consequently asked to
become a permanent volunteer by an existing group of permanent
volunteers, and as a result is given some degree of authority to make
decisions that will affect those that come to the shelter, then I think
there is definitely a higher level of responsibility to that "community"
of homeless, as well of course to the other permanent volunteers.
Again, as I've said all along, the degree of extra responsibility I
think is debatable.
In your original analogy, the volunteer would be someone like me. In my
modified version, they would be a committer. At least in my eyes, there
is a difference.
Excellent analogy though, you definitely made me think and evaluate my
position, I appreciate that! :)
> Steve
Frank
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Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Steve Raeburn <sr...@gmail.com>.
Frank W. Zammetti wrote:
> That's certainly one interpretation. For me, the responsibility comes
> with the position by default.
> ...
> What responsibilities do I have to my elected officials?
This might be getting to the heart of why we see the responsibilities
differently. The committers are not elected officials. They represent
only themselves, and sometimes their companies. Therefore the only
responsibility they have is to themselves. That doesn't mean they don't
care about what other people want or think, just that they are not bound
by any duty other than their own personal code of ethics.
Let me try another analogy. Let's say you go down to volunteer at a
homeless shelter. You serve a few meals and wipe a few tables a couple
of times a month. Do you become bound by any responsibility other than
to show up and help? Do you become responsible for solving the homeless
problem? Should you feel obligated to give someone a bed? Some people
may feel they do have such a responsibility. Others won't. It's not my
place to criticize a volunteer for not taking on those additional
responsibilities. I am just grateful that you've just done a little bit
to help out.
As for your response to my last question, I very much agree with you. I
do not believe blind allegiance is *ever* a good thing. I question
everything. I can be a real pain, believe me. But at some point you have
to accept that your way might not be accepted by others. They key thing
you said is respect. You have to give respect to earn it. The thing that
pisses me off most on this list (and I'm certainly not talking about you
here BTW) is people who have done nothing of value but who make personal
attacks on others who have contributed a lot of time and effort to help
them. Those people shouldn't be surprised that they don't get listened
to. You know who you are.
Steve
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Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by "Frank W. Zammetti" <fz...@omnytex.com>.
Steve Raeburn wrote:
> Rather than people volunteering to be community leaders, I think you are
> trying to *give* people leadership responsibility, which I don't think
> is fair -- unless there is a large cheque attached ;-)
That's certainly one interpretation. For me, the responsibility comes
with the position by default.
But at the end of the day, it's just my opinion... I think I've seen
more people disagreeing with me than agreeing, so in true community
fashion, I am in effect wrong :) I can live with that, it's how it's
supposed to work. I don't agree with the consensus, if that is indeed
what it is, but I've had my chance to express myself, and that's all I
can expect.
> One final thought. If the committers have a responsibility to the
> community, what is the community responsibility to the committers?
That is indeed an interesting question... I would say at least one
responsibility of the community to the committers is to voice their
ideas on how things should be done. What responsibilities do I have to
my elected officials? Same thing: to let them know what I would like to
see done. I certainly don't think blind allegiance in either case is
the right answer, and I don't think never dissenting is either.
Respect certainly, That means trying to communicate those ideas in a
respectful way. Not always easy, and not always easy to guage because
some people have different ideas of what respect means, but you still
have to try.
Those two pop immediately to mind for me.
> Steve
Frank
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Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Steve Raeburn <sr...@gmail.com>.
I guess I should have put some <sarcasm> tags in :-) No, Ajax is cool.
Possibly over-hyped and I have doubts about maintainability and
accessibility, but very cool.
Rather than people volunteering to be community leaders, I think you are
trying to *give* people leadership responsibility, which I don't think
is fair -- unless there is a large cheque attached ;-)
Although under no obligation to do so, the Struts committers have shown
a great deal of responsibility to the community. Many have actively
participated on the mailing lists to help people learn and use Struts
(and often non-Struts too). There has been great emphasis on backwards
compatibility, to ensure your investment in Struts is not wasted. There
has been a great deal of effort put into ease of use and documentation -
more than is required for the committers' own use. Committers (and other
contributors) have voluntarily accepted those responsibilities and spent
the time necessary to fulfil them.
The responsibility that has been shown is more than I have any right to
expect. I'm grateful for it and I'm sure it has contributed to the
success of Struts, but I have no automatic right to expect it.
Bottom line is that the only *rights* you have are those granted by the
license. Craig was generous enough to initially contribute Struts under
a permissive license, which means that if you really feel the Struts
project (code + community) is not serving your needs, that you won't be
prevented from using and modifying it as you see fit. Even starting a
new project if that's what you want.
One final thought. If the committers have a responsibility to the
community, what is the community responsibility to the committers?
Steve
Frank W. Zammetti wrote:
> On Fri, March 17, 2006 2:23 pm, Steve Raeburn said:
>
>> Frank, I don't think Java Web Parts should provide support for Ajax.
>> After all, this is *Java* Web Parts and Ajax has nothing to do with
>> Java. Anyway, Ajax is just a fad and I don't like it. If you want to do
>> Ajax, you should split it off into a separate project.
>>
>
> I've been thinking about that actually, but for a different reason...
> AjaxTags is by far the most popular part of JWP, and it might do well to
> develop on its own. I haven't raised this with the other team members
> though, so it's just my mussings in this one thread :)
>
> You really think it's a fad? I can't say I agree... although it's not new
> for many of us, I think it is for more. It's a different way of
> approaching web development in essence... forget the nitty gritty of this
> library vs. that library or XMLHttpRequest objects, etc... I don't think
> it's a fad, in fact I think its quite the opposite: a paradim shift.
>
> Well, I think we can probably agree at least that it's one tool in the
> toolbox. Whether you like it or choose to use it or not is completely up
> to you :)
>
>
>> Give me commit rights and I'll just delete it myself. Ok?
>>
>
> Sure, no problem :)
>
>
>> Regarding responsibility accepted by the committers, let me refer you to
>> the Apache License:
>>
>> 7. Disclaimer of Warranty. Unless required by applicable law or agreed
>> to in writing, Licensor provides the Work (and each Contributor provides
>> its Contributions) on an "AS IS" BASIS, WITHOUT WARRANTIES OR CONDITIONS
>> OF ANY KIND, either express or implied, including, without limitation,
>> any warranties or conditions of TITLE, NON-INFRINGEMENT,
>> MERCHANTABILITY, or FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE. You are solely
>> responsible for determining the appropriateness of using or
>> redistributing the Work and assume any risks associated with Your
>> exercise of permissions under this License.
>>
>> If you get value from the code, use it. If not, don't. End of
>> responsibility.
>>
>
> I think we're talking about two different forms of responsibility. I'm in
> no way, shape or form saying or implying that a committer is ever liable
> for code. Absolutely they are not. I think they have a responsibility to
> do the best work they can, but that's about it, and I've never had any
> doubt about that part of it, I think each committer does the best they
> can. I don't think anyone is purposely committing substandard code or
> anything like that, not in the least do I think that.
>
> I'm talking about the responsibility of being a leader. My view, and
> that's all it is in the end is my view of things, is that being a
> committer means you have accepted some extra degree of responsibility to
> be a leader and consider the community when you make decisions. I do not
> believe that you are simply a technician doing technical work any longer
> at that point. Espcially when you have something that has grown to the
> degree Struts has, and has so many people invested in it in various ways,
> I don't think you are simply a "gaggle of engineers" as longer. That may
> have been how it started, but evolution has something to say about what it
> may have become now.
>
> Again, I go back to my neighborhood analogy... I can be a good member of
> the neighborhood by simply not doing anything that bothers others, i.e.,
> don't play my music too loud, don't leave garbage on the lawn, etc. But
> if I decide to become a member of some neighborhood council, that actively
> is developing the company (i.e., maintaing a shared playground area), as
> you find in some exclusive communities, you then have some responsibility
> to consider the larger community more than when your on your own because
> your decisions potentially affect everyone. This is the kind of
> responsibility I'm referring to.
>
>
>> BTW I do respect you as a contributor to the Struts community and do
>> accept your right to comment on how the community is run and where the
>> code is going.
>>
>
> Thanks, I appreciate that :)
>
>
>> I just don't agree that you have a right to question
>> people's motives or tell them how to spend their time.
>>
>
> That's fine. I'm not sure I've ever told anyone how to spend their time,
> and I also don't think I've questioned anyones motives lately (I have in
> the past, and I apologized for it), but I'm certainly not going to say you
> can't disagree with me in any case! :)
>
>
>> Steve
>>
>
> Frank
>
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>
>
>
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Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by "Frank W. Zammetti" <fz...@omnytex.com>.
On Fri, March 17, 2006 2:23 pm, Steve Raeburn said:
> Frank, I don't think Java Web Parts should provide support for Ajax.
> After all, this is *Java* Web Parts and Ajax has nothing to do with
> Java. Anyway, Ajax is just a fad and I don't like it. If you want to do
> Ajax, you should split it off into a separate project.
I've been thinking about that actually, but for a different reason...
AjaxTags is by far the most popular part of JWP, and it might do well to
develop on its own. I haven't raised this with the other team members
though, so it's just my mussings in this one thread :)
You really think it's a fad? I can't say I agree... although it's not new
for many of us, I think it is for more. It's a different way of
approaching web development in essence... forget the nitty gritty of this
library vs. that library or XMLHttpRequest objects, etc... I don't think
it's a fad, in fact I think its quite the opposite: a paradim shift.
Well, I think we can probably agree at least that it's one tool in the
toolbox. Whether you like it or choose to use it or not is completely up
to you :)
> Give me commit rights and I'll just delete it myself. Ok?
Sure, no problem :)
> Regarding responsibility accepted by the committers, let me refer you to
> the Apache License:
>
> 7. Disclaimer of Warranty. Unless required by applicable law or agreed
> to in writing, Licensor provides the Work (and each Contributor provides
> its Contributions) on an "AS IS" BASIS, WITHOUT WARRANTIES OR CONDITIONS
> OF ANY KIND, either express or implied, including, without limitation,
> any warranties or conditions of TITLE, NON-INFRINGEMENT,
> MERCHANTABILITY, or FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE. You are solely
> responsible for determining the appropriateness of using or
> redistributing the Work and assume any risks associated with Your
> exercise of permissions under this License.
>
> If you get value from the code, use it. If not, don't. End of
> responsibility.
I think we're talking about two different forms of responsibility. I'm in
no way, shape or form saying or implying that a committer is ever liable
for code. Absolutely they are not. I think they have a responsibility to
do the best work they can, but that's about it, and I've never had any
doubt about that part of it, I think each committer does the best they
can. I don't think anyone is purposely committing substandard code or
anything like that, not in the least do I think that.
I'm talking about the responsibility of being a leader. My view, and
that's all it is in the end is my view of things, is that being a
committer means you have accepted some extra degree of responsibility to
be a leader and consider the community when you make decisions. I do not
believe that you are simply a technician doing technical work any longer
at that point. Espcially when you have something that has grown to the
degree Struts has, and has so many people invested in it in various ways,
I don't think you are simply a "gaggle of engineers" as longer. That may
have been how it started, but evolution has something to say about what it
may have become now.
Again, I go back to my neighborhood analogy... I can be a good member of
the neighborhood by simply not doing anything that bothers others, i.e.,
don't play my music too loud, don't leave garbage on the lawn, etc. But
if I decide to become a member of some neighborhood council, that actively
is developing the company (i.e., maintaing a shared playground area), as
you find in some exclusive communities, you then have some responsibility
to consider the larger community more than when your on your own because
your decisions potentially affect everyone. This is the kind of
responsibility I'm referring to.
> BTW I do respect you as a contributor to the Struts community and do
> accept your right to comment on how the community is run and where the
> code is going.
Thanks, I appreciate that :)
> I just don't agree that you have a right to question
> people's motives or tell them how to spend their time.
That's fine. I'm not sure I've ever told anyone how to spend their time,
and I also don't think I've questioned anyones motives lately (I have in
the past, and I apologized for it), but I'm certainly not going to say you
can't disagree with me in any case! :)
> Steve
Frank
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Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Steve Raeburn <sr...@gmail.com>.
Frank, I don't think Java Web Parts should provide support for Ajax.
After all, this is *Java* Web Parts and Ajax has nothing to do with
Java. Anyway, Ajax is just a fad and I don't like it. If you want to do
Ajax, you should split it off into a separate project.
Give me commit rights and I'll just delete it myself. Ok?
Regarding responsibility accepted by the committers, let me refer you to
the Apache License:
7. Disclaimer of Warranty. Unless required by applicable law or agreed
to in writing, Licensor provides the Work (and each Contributor provides
its Contributions) on an "AS IS" BASIS, WITHOUT WARRANTIES OR CONDITIONS
OF ANY KIND, either express or implied, including, without limitation,
any warranties or conditions of TITLE, NON-INFRINGEMENT,
MERCHANTABILITY, or FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE. You are solely
responsible for determining the appropriateness of using or
redistributing the Work and assume any risks associated with Your
exercise of permissions under this License.
If you get value from the code, use it. If not, don't. End of
responsibility.
BTW I do respect you as a contributor to the Struts community and do
accept your right to comment on how the community is run and where the
code is going. I just don't agree that you have a right to question
people's motives or tell them how to spend their time.
Steve
Frank W. Zammetti wrote:
> *YOUR* trying to share *YOUR* solutions. But if someone else wants to
> share their solutions, they have to go *through* you. And you don't see
> why there's frustration?
>
> Oh, I think I know what you'd say to that... there are alternatives. And
> your right! That's how Java Web Parts got started. I wanted to share my
> solutions too, let people decide if they liked them or not, use them if
> they want or not, and I wasn't allowed to do it here. So, I went
> elsewhere. And you know, it worked out for the best, so I suppose in the
> end I should thank you!
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Re: [FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by "Frank W. Zammetti" <fz...@omnytex.com>.
On Fri, March 17, 2006 8:12 am, Ted Husted said:
> I think one mark of a committer and PMC member is that we don't have
> those type of passions. There are three of four of those passionate
> types on this thread. But none of them are committers. And, out of the
> thousands of people who subscribe to this list, it's the same three or
> four people who complain, over and over again. (What's is the sound of
> one hand clapping?)
It's the sound of someone slapping someone upside the head by saying what
needs to be said.
I've got cliches I can pull out of the drawer too...
It is difficult telling unpleasent things to power. I have no problem
doing so. You can still ignore me, that is your right, but when I feel
something needs to be said you better believe I'm going to say it. If I
have to eat my words later I will do so, but inaction is far worse than
being wrong IMO.
Truth is nothing but a feeling that something is true. Therefore, not
saying how you feel is tantamount to a lie IMO.
If you can't dazzle them with your brilliance, baffle them with your
bullshit. Of course, how one defines bullshit is quite subjective... I
know how *I* define it.
Are we done lobbing pointless cliches now?
> Committers tend to be pragmatic people who are just trying to earn our
> living building applications that work. We aren't trying to be an
> expert committee that decides what everyone else should be doing.
> We're just trying to solve our own problems and share the solutions.
> Like every working engineer, sometimes we get to choose what
> technologies we use. Sometimes the technologies choose us.
*YOUR* trying to share *YOUR* solutions. But if someone else wants to
share their solutions, they have to go *through* you. And you don't see
why there's frustration?
Oh, I think I know what you'd say to that... there are alternatives. And
your right! That's how Java Web Parts got started. I wanted to share my
solutions too, let people decide if they liked them or not, use them if
they want or not, and I wasn't allowed to do it here. So, I went
elsewhere. And you know, it worked out for the best, so I suppose in the
end I should thank you!
You are in a unique position, and if you don't see that then you are
blind. And you aren't an expert committee? Then why write books telling
us what Struts "best practices" are? Why write articles telling us how
things "should" be done in Struts? Unless they start out with something
like "here's how I do things, and it seems to work pretty well, but
whatever", then you in fact ARE an expert committe, perhaps of one but
still, trying to tell everyone what they should be doing. It's still your
opinion in the end, but it is viewed as authoritative, and therefore
carries more weight. This implies responsibility.
And forget all that... let's say I'm completely off-base there... the
simple fact is that people in the community look to the committers as
subject matter experts, and if you don't understand that, then again, you
are really quite blind. And if you don't think that infers a certain
degree of responsibility, then we really do have nothing further to talk
about.
> Right now, I don't need to use JSF. Six months from now, I might. And
> should that day come, I'll be very glad that both my old and new
> friends have been cranking out Shale code that I will be able to use.
> And since we are on the same dev list, it's easy for me to keep up
> with what we are doing with Shale, even if I don't need to use it at
> work today. Duty now for the future!
This is someone else' argument, so I won't step into it.
> It's a little bit like saying that because my brother likes the Titans
> and I like the Falcons, one of us has to move, since we couldn't
> possibly live under one roof, and share our love for football. Sure
> there are some people who can't put aside their fanatism, and who
> insist on arguing about things that in five or six years won't matter.
> But, those people are not the Struts committers.
Putting aside the football analogy, Ted, can you explain to me why voicing
ones' opinion, even if contrary to everyone else', is so intrinsicly evil?
You seem to have a big problem with a few of us who are questioning what
we see as things that are wrong, or sub-optimal. Do you always have such
an issue with hearing things you don't agree with? You are never
obligated to answer back... in fact, I believe you've said many times that
the way to get rid of a troll is to not feed them. Clearly you view a few
of us as trolls. Why is it that in your mind, "troll" equates to someone
that holds a different opinion than you?
Is the senator that stands in the well and speaks his mind and disagrees
with his colleagues a "troll", or is it someone who cares about something
giving the opposing view in the hopes of improving things? The majority
will decide whether they are right or wrong, as it should be, but
shouldn't he be doing exactly what he's doing?
Ok, I suppose using politicians in that argument wasn't such a good idea
:) I have to believe at least *one* of them have our best intersts at
heart, and that's the one I'm thinking of in this analogy :)
> As for this thread, I've said all that I have to say, several times
> over. I won't say anything more. If some people don't understand our
> position, that's fine. A lot of people don't understand the Apache
> Culture. But, if someone doesn't understand us, please don't assume we
> are anything other than what we appear to be. A gaggle of engineeers
> trying to solve our own problems in a cooperative, collaborative way.
> That's what we were six years ago, and that's what we will be six
> years from now.
Well, there is our basic disagreement... I believe by accepting a certain
position you have become something more, and have a greater
responsibility, than just a gaggle of engineers. If that is contrary to
the Apache Culture, than clearly I believe that culture is not as optimal
as it could be. So be it.
I have no problem that we disagree Ted, and I don't even know if I'm
right, I only know what I think and feel at this moment. My only problem
is with your characterization of someone that doesn't agree with you as
somehow doing something wrong, of being a "troll", which is what I surmise
you believe us to be. Whether someone says something once or a hundred
times shouldn't make a whole lot of difference IMO. Something things have
to be said over and over and over again before they sink in and have any
effect.
You know, I've been on these lists quite a while... roughly two years
IIRC. I have a certain record, and anyone can review it, and I am not
ashamed of it (of one or two incidents, yes... I'm not perfect and have
never claimed to be). I have been helpful to a great many people I
believe, and I think I generally have a reputation as being someone that
will do what they can to help others for no other reason than I like to
help people when I can. If that alone hasn't earned me the right to
disagree and say what I feel about pretty much anything, than I really
don't know what to say. I have tried very hard to not be disrespectful in
this thread, even when I felt I was justified in doing so. I can only
hope that disagreement is not construed as disrespect by you, or anyone
else.
> -Ted.
Frank
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[FRIDAY] Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Ted Husted <te...@gmail.com>.
> The problem is not with JSF itself, but the way the Struts team has divided itself
> into competing camps. JSF and Struts are competing because their
> approaches are orthogonal; it doesn't make any sense to do both
> unless you are on a migration path.
...
> I think Struts does have a future, but I believe there needs
> to be honesty about the competition here. Struts DOES COMPETE against
> JSF and Shale, and putting these competitors into one mailing list
> will definitely bring out the passion on both sides.
I think one mark of a committer and PMC member is that we don't have
those type of passions. There are three of four of those passionate
types on this thread. But none of them are committers. And, out of the
thousands of people who subscribe to this list, it's the same three or
four people who complain, over and over again. (What's is the sound of
one hand clapping?)
Committers tend to be pragmatic people who are just trying to earn our
living building applications that work. We aren't trying to be an
expert committee that decides what everyone else should be doing.
We're just trying to solve our own problems and share the solutions.
Like every working engineer, sometimes we get to choose what
technologies we use. Sometimes the technologies choose us.
Right now, I don't need to use JSF. Six months from now, I might. And
should that day come, I'll be very glad that both my old and new
friends have been cranking out Shale code that I will be able to use.
And since we are on the same dev list, it's easy for me to keep up
with what we are doing with Shale, even if I don't need to use it at
work today. Duty now for the future!
It's a little bit like saying that because my brother likes the Titans
and I like the Falcons, one of us has to move, since we couldn't
possibly live under one roof, and share our love for football. Sure
there are some people who can't put aside their fanatism, and who
insist on arguing about things that in five or six years won't matter.
But, those people are not the Struts committers.
At the Apache Software Foundation, we take the long view. A couple of
years ago is was JSTL. Now is JSF. In a few more years, it will be
something else. And, when those new years come, I very much hope that
all the committers we have here now will still be at my side, helping
each other out, collaborating, and sharing the wealth. Just as we do
today.
As for this thread, I've said all that I have to say, several times
over. I won't say anything more. If some people don't understand our
position, that's fine. A lot of people don't understand the Apache
Culture. But, if someone doesn't understand us, please don't assume we
are anything other than what we appear to be. A gaggle of engineeers
trying to solve our own problems in a cooperative, collaborative way.
That's what we were six years ago, and that's what we will be six
years from now.
-Ted.
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Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by "Frank W. Zammetti" <fz...@omnytex.com>.
Interesting thought James... I don't know how it would turn out, but I
certainly don't think it's a crazy idea... I've never thought the whole
component vs. page argument made a whole lot of sense. I happen to
think the two ideas are compatible, if done right. Maybe this would be
the right fusion of the two, I don't know.
Frank
James Mitchell wrote:
> What if <--- dangerous I know!
>
> What if there existed a JSF 1.2 implementation built with WW2 at the core?
>
> I'm definitely not an expert with either JSF or WW2, however, I've
> looked at both just enough to be convinced that it is possible. WW2 has
> everything I already love about Struts and it even comes with basic
> support for components, full Spring integration, etc, etc.
>
> Am I just crazy or what? Would that not let everyone have their cake
> and eat it too?
>
>
> --
> James Mitchell
> EdgeTech, Inc.
> http://edgetechservices.net/
> 678.910.8017
> Skype: jmitchtx
>
>
>
>
> On Mar 16, 2006, at 6:26 PM, Paul Benedict wrote:
>
>> I believe Dakota is correct in this area. The problem is not
>> with JSF itself, but the way the Struts team has divided itself
>> into competing camps. JSF and Struts are competing because their
>> approaches are orthogonal; it doesn't make any sense to do both
>> unless you are on a migration path.
>>
>> When you have really great talent like Craig leave the Action
>> Framework to contribute putting his total/almost total effort into
>> Shale, it
>> sends the signal TO ME (my opinion here) of "the boat is sinking"
>> (Struts) and "the next big thing" (JSF) is on the horizon. Craig
>> has put a ton of time and effort into Shale and I think that's
>> awesome, but at the same time, I wish he would do the same to Struts.
>> The Action Framework needs a lot of constant dedication to make it
>> better,
>> and there are ton of great contributions on board, but Craig appears
>> to have an abundance of time and effort no one else has :-) and I wish
>> that talent was retained for Struts.
>>
>> I think Struts does have a future, but I believe there needs
>> to be honesty about the competition here. Struts DOES COMPETE against
>> JSF and Shale, and putting these competitors into one mailing list
>> will definitely bring out the passion on both sides.
>>
>> -- Paul
>>
>> --- Dakota Jack <da...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I don't think JSF is polarizing. I think that the way it has been
>>> pushed
>>> into areas it does not belong is polarizing. There is absolutely
>>> nothing
>>> wrong with JSF, in my opinion, but there is something wrong with the
>>> way its
>>> advocates have strong-armed and misled people. That's what I have
>>> disliked.
>>>
>>> On 3/15/06, Greg Reddin <gr...@apache.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mar 15, 2006, at 11:26 AM, Frank W. Zammetti wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Isn't it interesting how polarizing JSF seems to be? I don't know
>>>>> about
>>>>> you, but I talk to more people with a strong opinion either way
>>>>> than most
>>>>> other technologies. The only other one I can think of in the same
>>>>> vein is
>>>>> EJBs. Seems like you either love EJBs or you hate them, and the same
>>>>> seems, largely, to be true of JSF. There seems to be relatively
>>>>> few of us
>>>>> in the middle.
>>>>
>>>> I think it's largely because the JCP moved into a space that was
>>>> already well-populated and people tend to be very skeptical of
>>>> governing bodies. I think that the simple fact that JSF is a
>>>> standard means there's a certain slice of people who will
>>>> automatically refuse to accept it. I wonder how different the
>>>> response would be if the exact same technology had been developed by
>>>> ASF or FSF without the involvement of a standards body. Conversely,
>>>> I wonder how different the response to Struts would've been if it had
>>>> started out as a JSR.
>>>>
>>>> Developers seem to have the most difficult time with the "not created
>>>> here" syndrome. At my last job I was on an architecture team for a
>>>> large firm. We inherently held great skepticism for any framework
>>>> handed to us that we didn't develop ourselves. And any framework we
>>>> developed ourselves seemed to be completely rejected by everyone
>>>> else. The portal software I'm working with right now really needs to
>>>> be rewritten IMO. The only frameworks that seem to gain widespread
>>>> acceptance are those that are developed in an open community rather
>>>> than a closed one. Hmm. But there's always politics and egos
>>>> involved. I strive to be the developer who can walk into any
>>>> framework already in use and get work done without complaining about
>>>> how broken everything is. I'm still a long way from achieving that
>>>> goal.
>>>>
>>>> Greg
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> "You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its
>>> back."
>>> ~Dakota Jack~
>>>
>>
>>
>> __________________________________________________
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Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by netsql <ne...@roomity.com>.
A similar question would be:
What if one developed in Ajax, and the back end tech stack did not matter.
What Ajax framework would you use would matter.
.V
Michael Jouravlev wrote:
>
> What if you developed components in good old JSP, and used whatever
> action framework you like,
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Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Michael Jouravlev <jm...@gmail.com>.
On 3/16/06, James Mitchell <jm...@apache.org> wrote:
> What if <--- dangerous I know!
>
> What if there existed a JSF 1.2 implementation built with WW2 at the
> core?
>
> I'm definitely not an expert with either JSF or WW2, however, I've
> looked at both just enough to be convinced that it is possible. WW2
> has everything I already love about Struts and it even comes with
> basic support for components, full Spring integration, etc, etc.
>
> Am I just crazy or what? Would that not let everyone have their cake
> and eat it too?
What if you developed components in good old JSP, and used whatever
action framework you like, such as Struts Classic, WebWork, Spring MVC
or Stripes for input conversion, validation, propagation to business
objects, backend operations, localization and resource management? For
example:
<span id="Login_def">
<%-- Submit phase --%>
<jc:handler event="loginEvent">
<jsp:include page="/login.do" />
</jc:handler>
<jc:handler event="logoutEvent">
<jsp:include page="/logout.do" />
</jc:handler>
<jc:reload/>
<%-- Render phase --%>
<jc:prerender/>
<jc:render view="notloggedin">
<h3>Log In</h3>
<logic:messagesPresent>
<html:messages id="error">
<li><bean:write name="error"/></li>
</html:messages>
</logic:messagesPresent><br/>
<jc:form>
<label for="username">Username:</label>
<input type="text" name="username" value="${username}"/><br/>
<label for="password">Password:</label>
<input type="text" name="password" value=""/><br/>
<jc:submit event="loginEvent" value="Log In"/><br/>
</jc:form>
</jc:render>
<jc:render view="loggedin">
<h3>Log Out</h3>
<jc:form>
<label>Current user:</label>
<div>${USER}</div><br/>
<jc:submit event="logoutEvent" value="Log out"/><br/>
<jc:link event="logoutEvent" value="Log out using link" />
</jc:form>
</jc:render>
</span>
Michael.
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Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Dakota Jack <da...@gmail.com>.
I think this is basically impossible. If this is possible, someone would
have to explain how. You cannot have these two kinds of controllers
actually working together as more than incompatible choices. This sort of
thinking is what started the problem in Struts. If I were a WW2 buff, I
would be choking and gagging.
On 3/16/06, James Mitchell <jm...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> What if <--- dangerous I know!
>
> What if there existed a JSF 1.2 implementation built with WW2 at the
> core?
>
> I'm definitely not an expert with either JSF or WW2, however, I've
> looked at both just enough to be convinced that it is possible. WW2
> has everything I already love about Struts and it even comes with
> basic support for components, full Spring integration, etc, etc.
>
> Am I just crazy or what? Would that not let everyone have their cake
> and eat it too?
>
>
> --
> James Mitchell
> EdgeTech, Inc.
> http://edgetechservices.net/
> 678.910.8017
> Skype: jmitchtx
>
>
>
>
> On Mar 16, 2006, at 6:26 PM, Paul Benedict wrote:
>
> > I believe Dakota is correct in this area. The problem is not
> > with JSF itself, but the way the Struts team has divided itself
> > into competing camps. JSF and Struts are competing because their
> > approaches are orthogonal; it doesn't make any sense to do both
> > unless you are on a migration path.
> >
> > When you have really great talent like Craig leave the Action
> > Framework to contribute putting his total/almost total effort into
> > Shale, it
> > sends the signal TO ME (my opinion here) of "the boat is sinking"
> > (Struts) and "the next big thing" (JSF) is on the horizon. Craig
> > has put a ton of time and effort into Shale and I think that's
> > awesome, but at the same time, I wish he would do the same to Struts.
> > The Action Framework needs a lot of constant dedication to make it
> > better,
> > and there are ton of great contributions on board, but Craig appears
> > to have an abundance of time and effort no one else has :-) and I wish
> > that talent was retained for Struts.
> >
> > I think Struts does have a future, but I believe there needs
> > to be honesty about the competition here. Struts DOES COMPETE against
> > JSF and Shale, and putting these competitors into one mailing list
> > will definitely bring out the passion on both sides.
> >
> > -- Paul
> >
> > --- Dakota Jack <da...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> I don't think JSF is polarizing. I think that the way it has been
> >> pushed
> >> into areas it does not belong is polarizing. There is absolutely
> >> nothing
> >> wrong with JSF, in my opinion, but there is something wrong with
> >> the way its
> >> advocates have strong-armed and misled people. That's what I have
> >> disliked.
> >>
> >> On 3/15/06, Greg Reddin <gr...@apache.org> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Mar 15, 2006, at 11:26 AM, Frank W. Zammetti wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Isn't it interesting how polarizing JSF seems to be? I don't know
> >>>> about
> >>>> you, but I talk to more people with a strong opinion either way
> >>>> than most
> >>>> other technologies. The only other one I can think of in the same
> >>>> vein is
> >>>> EJBs. Seems like you either love EJBs or you hate them, and the
> >>>> same
> >>>> seems, largely, to be true of JSF. There seems to be relatively
> >>>> few of us
> >>>> in the middle.
> >>>
> >>> I think it's largely because the JCP moved into a space that was
> >>> already well-populated and people tend to be very skeptical of
> >>> governing bodies. I think that the simple fact that JSF is a
> >>> standard means there's a certain slice of people who will
> >>> automatically refuse to accept it. I wonder how different the
> >>> response would be if the exact same technology had been developed by
> >>> ASF or FSF without the involvement of a standards body. Conversely,
> >>> I wonder how different the response to Struts would've been if it
> >>> had
> >>> started out as a JSR.
> >>>
> >>> Developers seem to have the most difficult time with the "not
> >>> created
> >>> here" syndrome. At my last job I was on an architecture team for a
> >>> large firm. We inherently held great skepticism for any framework
> >>> handed to us that we didn't develop ourselves. And any framework we
> >>> developed ourselves seemed to be completely rejected by everyone
> >>> else. The portal software I'm working with right now really
> >>> needs to
> >>> be rewritten IMO. The only frameworks that seem to gain widespread
> >>> acceptance are those that are developed in an open community rather
> >>> than a closed one. Hmm. But there's always politics and egos
> >>> involved. I strive to be the developer who can walk into any
> >>> framework already in use and get work done without complaining about
> >>> how broken everything is. I'm still a long way from achieving that
> >>> goal.
> >>>
> >>> Greg
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>> -
> >>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> >>> For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> "You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its
> >> back."
> >> ~Dakota Jack~
> >>
> >
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> > http://mail.yahoo.com
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
> >
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
>
>
--
"You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back."
~Dakota Jack~
Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by James Mitchell <jm...@apache.org>.
What if <--- dangerous I know!
What if there existed a JSF 1.2 implementation built with WW2 at the
core?
I'm definitely not an expert with either JSF or WW2, however, I've
looked at both just enough to be convinced that it is possible. WW2
has everything I already love about Struts and it even comes with
basic support for components, full Spring integration, etc, etc.
Am I just crazy or what? Would that not let everyone have their cake
and eat it too?
--
James Mitchell
EdgeTech, Inc.
http://edgetechservices.net/
678.910.8017
Skype: jmitchtx
On Mar 16, 2006, at 6:26 PM, Paul Benedict wrote:
> I believe Dakota is correct in this area. The problem is not
> with JSF itself, but the way the Struts team has divided itself
> into competing camps. JSF and Struts are competing because their
> approaches are orthogonal; it doesn't make any sense to do both
> unless you are on a migration path.
>
> When you have really great talent like Craig leave the Action
> Framework to contribute putting his total/almost total effort into
> Shale, it
> sends the signal TO ME (my opinion here) of "the boat is sinking"
> (Struts) and "the next big thing" (JSF) is on the horizon. Craig
> has put a ton of time and effort into Shale and I think that's
> awesome, but at the same time, I wish he would do the same to Struts.
> The Action Framework needs a lot of constant dedication to make it
> better,
> and there are ton of great contributions on board, but Craig appears
> to have an abundance of time and effort no one else has :-) and I wish
> that talent was retained for Struts.
>
> I think Struts does have a future, but I believe there needs
> to be honesty about the competition here. Struts DOES COMPETE against
> JSF and Shale, and putting these competitors into one mailing list
> will definitely bring out the passion on both sides.
>
> -- Paul
>
> --- Dakota Jack <da...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I don't think JSF is polarizing. I think that the way it has been
>> pushed
>> into areas it does not belong is polarizing. There is absolutely
>> nothing
>> wrong with JSF, in my opinion, but there is something wrong with
>> the way its
>> advocates have strong-armed and misled people. That's what I have
>> disliked.
>>
>> On 3/15/06, Greg Reddin <gr...@apache.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mar 15, 2006, at 11:26 AM, Frank W. Zammetti wrote:
>>>
>>>> Isn't it interesting how polarizing JSF seems to be? I don't know
>>>> about
>>>> you, but I talk to more people with a strong opinion either way
>>>> than most
>>>> other technologies. The only other one I can think of in the same
>>>> vein is
>>>> EJBs. Seems like you either love EJBs or you hate them, and the
>>>> same
>>>> seems, largely, to be true of JSF. There seems to be relatively
>>>> few of us
>>>> in the middle.
>>>
>>> I think it's largely because the JCP moved into a space that was
>>> already well-populated and people tend to be very skeptical of
>>> governing bodies. I think that the simple fact that JSF is a
>>> standard means there's a certain slice of people who will
>>> automatically refuse to accept it. I wonder how different the
>>> response would be if the exact same technology had been developed by
>>> ASF or FSF without the involvement of a standards body. Conversely,
>>> I wonder how different the response to Struts would've been if it
>>> had
>>> started out as a JSR.
>>>
>>> Developers seem to have the most difficult time with the "not
>>> created
>>> here" syndrome. At my last job I was on an architecture team for a
>>> large firm. We inherently held great skepticism for any framework
>>> handed to us that we didn't develop ourselves. And any framework we
>>> developed ourselves seemed to be completely rejected by everyone
>>> else. The portal software I'm working with right now really
>>> needs to
>>> be rewritten IMO. The only frameworks that seem to gain widespread
>>> acceptance are those that are developed in an open community rather
>>> than a closed one. Hmm. But there's always politics and egos
>>> involved. I strive to be the developer who can walk into any
>>> framework already in use and get work done without complaining about
>>> how broken everything is. I'm still a long way from achieving that
>>> goal.
>>>
>>> Greg
>>>
>>>
>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> -
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> "You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its
>> back."
>> ~Dakota Jack~
>>
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Paul Benedict <pa...@yahoo.com>.
I believe Dakota is correct in this area. The problem is not
with JSF itself, but the way the Struts team has divided itself
into competing camps. JSF and Struts are competing because their
approaches are orthogonal; it doesn't make any sense to do both
unless you are on a migration path.
When you have really great talent like Craig leave the Action
Framework to contribute putting his total/almost total effort into Shale, it
sends the signal TO ME (my opinion here) of "the boat is sinking"
(Struts) and "the next big thing" (JSF) is on the horizon. Craig
has put a ton of time and effort into Shale and I think that's
awesome, but at the same time, I wish he would do the same to Struts.
The Action Framework needs a lot of constant dedication to make it better,
and there are ton of great contributions on board, but Craig appears
to have an abundance of time and effort no one else has :-) and I wish
that talent was retained for Struts.
I think Struts does have a future, but I believe there needs
to be honesty about the competition here. Struts DOES COMPETE against
JSF and Shale, and putting these competitors into one mailing list
will definitely bring out the passion on both sides.
-- Paul
--- Dakota Jack <da...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I don't think JSF is polarizing. I think that the way it has been pushed
> into areas it does not belong is polarizing. There is absolutely nothing
> wrong with JSF, in my opinion, but there is something wrong with the way its
> advocates have strong-armed and misled people. That's what I have
> disliked.
>
> On 3/15/06, Greg Reddin <gr...@apache.org> wrote:
> >
> >
> > On Mar 15, 2006, at 11:26 AM, Frank W. Zammetti wrote:
> >
> > > Isn't it interesting how polarizing JSF seems to be? I don't know
> > > about
> > > you, but I talk to more people with a strong opinion either way
> > > than most
> > > other technologies. The only other one I can think of in the same
> > > vein is
> > > EJBs. Seems like you either love EJBs or you hate them, and the same
> > > seems, largely, to be true of JSF. There seems to be relatively
> > > few of us
> > > in the middle.
> >
> > I think it's largely because the JCP moved into a space that was
> > already well-populated and people tend to be very skeptical of
> > governing bodies. I think that the simple fact that JSF is a
> > standard means there's a certain slice of people who will
> > automatically refuse to accept it. I wonder how different the
> > response would be if the exact same technology had been developed by
> > ASF or FSF without the involvement of a standards body. Conversely,
> > I wonder how different the response to Struts would've been if it had
> > started out as a JSR.
> >
> > Developers seem to have the most difficult time with the "not created
> > here" syndrome. At my last job I was on an architecture team for a
> > large firm. We inherently held great skepticism for any framework
> > handed to us that we didn't develop ourselves. And any framework we
> > developed ourselves seemed to be completely rejected by everyone
> > else. The portal software I'm working with right now really needs to
> > be rewritten IMO. The only frameworks that seem to gain widespread
> > acceptance are those that are developed in an open community rather
> > than a closed one. Hmm. But there's always politics and egos
> > involved. I strive to be the developer who can walk into any
> > framework already in use and get work done without complaining about
> > how broken everything is. I'm still a long way from achieving that
> > goal.
> >
> > Greg
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> "You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back."
> ~Dakota Jack~
>
__________________________________________________
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Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Dakota Jack <da...@gmail.com>.
I don't think JSF is polarizing. I think that the way it has been pushed
into areas it does not belong is polarizing. There is absolutely nothing
wrong with JSF, in my opinion, but there is something wrong with the way its
advocates have strong-armed and misled people. That's what I have
disliked.
On 3/15/06, Greg Reddin <gr...@apache.org> wrote:
>
>
> On Mar 15, 2006, at 11:26 AM, Frank W. Zammetti wrote:
>
> > Isn't it interesting how polarizing JSF seems to be? I don't know
> > about
> > you, but I talk to more people with a strong opinion either way
> > than most
> > other technologies. The only other one I can think of in the same
> > vein is
> > EJBs. Seems like you either love EJBs or you hate them, and the same
> > seems, largely, to be true of JSF. There seems to be relatively
> > few of us
> > in the middle.
>
> I think it's largely because the JCP moved into a space that was
> already well-populated and people tend to be very skeptical of
> governing bodies. I think that the simple fact that JSF is a
> standard means there's a certain slice of people who will
> automatically refuse to accept it. I wonder how different the
> response would be if the exact same technology had been developed by
> ASF or FSF without the involvement of a standards body. Conversely,
> I wonder how different the response to Struts would've been if it had
> started out as a JSR.
>
> Developers seem to have the most difficult time with the "not created
> here" syndrome. At my last job I was on an architecture team for a
> large firm. We inherently held great skepticism for any framework
> handed to us that we didn't develop ourselves. And any framework we
> developed ourselves seemed to be completely rejected by everyone
> else. The portal software I'm working with right now really needs to
> be rewritten IMO. The only frameworks that seem to gain widespread
> acceptance are those that are developed in an open community rather
> than a closed one. Hmm. But there's always politics and egos
> involved. I strive to be the developer who can walk into any
> framework already in use and get work done without complaining about
> how broken everything is. I'm still a long way from achieving that
> goal.
>
> Greg
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
>
>
--
"You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back."
~Dakota Jack~
Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by "Frank W. Zammetti" <fz...@omnytex.com>.
On Wed, March 15, 2006 12:48 pm, Greg Reddin said:
> I think it's largely because the JCP moved into a space that was
> already well-populated and people tend to be very skeptical of
> governing bodies.
-snip-
> Developers seem to have the most difficult time with the "not created
> here" syndrome.
-snip-
There is great wisdom in your words :) I think you nailed it.
Frank
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Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Michael Jouravlev <jm...@gmail.com>.
On 3/15/06, Greg Reddin <gr...@apache.org> wrote:
> Developers seem to have the most difficult time with the "not created
> here" syndrome.
It often not just a syndrome. When you feel that you have it, "the
solution" right in your hands, you are all itching and want to share
with others. "See, isn't this a great stuff?" A standard reaction is
automatic rejection though. People don't like pushers.
> At my last job I was on an architecture team for a
> large firm. We inherently held great skepticism for any framework
> handed to us that we didn't develop ourselves. And any framework we
> developed ourselves seemed to be completely rejected by everyone
> else.
The library I am working now has not been noticed by most yet, but I
know that it is a true gem ;-)
> But there's always politics and egos
> involved. I strive to be the developer who can walk into any
> framework already in use and get work done without complaining about
> how broken everything is. I'm still a long way from achieving that
> goal.
Same here, especially when I already have my own solution which is better.
Michael.
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Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Greg Reddin <gr...@apache.org>.
On Mar 15, 2006, at 11:26 AM, Frank W. Zammetti wrote:
> Isn't it interesting how polarizing JSF seems to be? I don't know
> about
> you, but I talk to more people with a strong opinion either way
> than most
> other technologies. The only other one I can think of in the same
> vein is
> EJBs. Seems like you either love EJBs or you hate them, and the same
> seems, largely, to be true of JSF. There seems to be relatively
> few of us
> in the middle.
I think it's largely because the JCP moved into a space that was
already well-populated and people tend to be very skeptical of
governing bodies. I think that the simple fact that JSF is a
standard means there's a certain slice of people who will
automatically refuse to accept it. I wonder how different the
response would be if the exact same technology had been developed by
ASF or FSF without the involvement of a standards body. Conversely,
I wonder how different the response to Struts would've been if it had
started out as a JSR.
Developers seem to have the most difficult time with the "not created
here" syndrome. At my last job I was on an architecture team for a
large firm. We inherently held great skepticism for any framework
handed to us that we didn't develop ourselves. And any framework we
developed ourselves seemed to be completely rejected by everyone
else. The portal software I'm working with right now really needs to
be rewritten IMO. The only frameworks that seem to gain widespread
acceptance are those that are developed in an open community rather
than a closed one. Hmm. But there's always politics and egos
involved. I strive to be the developer who can walk into any
framework already in use and get work done without complaining about
how broken everything is. I'm still a long way from achieving that
goal.
Greg
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Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by "Frank W. Zammetti" <fz...@omnytex.com>.
On Wed, March 15, 2006 12:13 pm, Greg Reddin said:
>
> On Mar 15, 2006, at 10:13 AM, Frank W. Zammetti wrote:
>
>> I value honesty and openness above all else, and when I
>> feel like those ideals are not being met completely, even if
>> relatively
>> beningnly as is the case in sales generally, it bugs me a bit.
>
> Hmm, interesting. I value honesty and openness as well. I just
> don't expect to see it in marketing material. I guess I don't even
> "desire" it in marketing material. I tend to skip over marketing
> altogether and look for the truth below.
I don't think your alone in that. In fact, I have no problem submitting
that I am almost certainly the anomaly :) It's just one of those things
that sticks in my craw a bit... if someone is going to start off by not
being straight with me, to whatever relatively minor degree it may be, and
even in a situation where it's expected, that bugs me.
Then again, I'm probably the easiest guy to sell a car too... be straight
with me from the start, and even if your story (read; price) isn't as good
as the salesman who isn't as straight, you probably made the sale :)
>> From a purely *technical* standpoint though, as I've said
>> before, I'm not at this point a fan of JSF. That being said, I'm
>> in no
>> way dismissing it forever. In fact, I look forward to the next
>> major rev
>> as I hear a great many things are being addressed that may well
>> make it
>> more paletable to me. Where it came from and the motivations
>> behind it
>> are at this point largely just a historical discussion. Where it
>> is and
>> where its going is far more interesting to me :)
>
> I'm in a similar place, though, perhaps a bit closer to acceptance.
> I've completed one proof of concept project based on JSF and found a
> lot of difficulties. Again, some aspects of it worked better than
> Struts, others cried out for Struts :-) My biggest difficulties came
> in trying to get the JSP pages to work right. I too await the next
> version and hope for improvement. But I really liked the controller
> strategy.
Isn't it interesting how polarizing JSF seems to be? I don't know about
you, but I talk to more people with a strong opinion either way than most
other technologies. The only other one I can think of in the same vein is
EJBs. Seems like you either love EJBs or you hate them, and the same
seems, largely, to be true of JSF. There seems to be relatively few of us
in the middle.
Maybe it's just the typical "those with the strongest opinions tend to
speak the loudest" syndrome though :)
It's also interesting that a lot of people seem to start out with a strong
opinion and gravitate towards the middle, at least in my experience. I
certainly had a stronger negative opinion at one point than I do now for
instance.
Eh, just curiosities of group-think I suppose :)
> Greg
Frank
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Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Greg Reddin <gr...@apache.org>.
On Mar 15, 2006, at 10:13 AM, Frank W. Zammetti wrote:
> I value honesty and openness above all else, and when I
> feel like those ideals are not being met completely, even if
> relatively
> beningnly as is the case in sales generally, it bugs me a bit.
Hmm, interesting. I value honesty and openness as well. I just
don't expect to see it in marketing material. I guess I don't even
"desire" it in marketing material. I tend to skip over marketing
altogether and look for the truth below.
> From a purely *technical* standpoint though, as I've said
> before, I'm not at this point a fan of JSF. That being said, I'm
> in no
> way dismissing it forever. In fact, I look forward to the next
> major rev
> as I hear a great many things are being addressed that may well
> make it
> more paletable to me. Where it came from and the motivations
> behind it
> are at this point largely just a historical discussion. Where it
> is and
> where its going is far more interesting to me :)
I'm in a similar place, though, perhaps a bit closer to acceptance.
I've completed one proof of concept project based on JSF and found a
lot of difficulties. Again, some aspects of it worked better than
Struts, others cried out for Struts :-) My biggest difficulties came
in trying to get the JSP pages to work right. I too await the next
version and hope for improvement. But I really liked the controller
strategy.
Greg
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Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by "Frank W. Zammetti" <fz...@omnytex.com>.
On Wed, March 15, 2006 10:40 am, Greg Reddin said:
> I find it ironic that people are bemoaning JSF for its commercial
> interests.
To be clear, *I* have not bemoaned the commercial interests. In fact, I
said at least twice in this very thread that I have no problem with it.
What I do bemoan, and only speaking for myself of course, is when that
fact is not acknowledged. And as I said previously, maybe it HAS been
acknowledged and I just never saw it. But just because we all know it
isn't enough. I value honesty and openness above all else, and when I
feel like those ideals are not being met completely, even if relatively
beningnly as is the case in sales generally, it bugs me a bit.
> Second, look at who is represented on the Expert Group for JSR-127.
> Why would companies like Oracle, Borland, IBM, Macromedia, BEA, HP,
> etc. bother to participate in a such project if they weren't
> protecting their own interests? Just look at how many tool-makers
> are present among the expert group. Is it any wonder the resulting
> spec brings them the opportunity to cash in? That's not even to
> mention all the other community-driven framework options that were in
> play when JSF was under development. Personally, I think the
> resulting framework is not too bad considering. I would've liked the
> Struts worldview to have been better represented - or maybe I am
> saying the "tool-less" developer's worldview. But given all the
> players, I'm not surprised or disappointed with what we have.
Your saying that given the players involved, the outcome is completely
unremarkable. I agree! :) And further, I have no problem with it.
However, I think it is disingenuous for the players to not admit that
motivation after the fact and instead hype up the more positive
motivations. Understandable? Absolutely. Expected? Yes! But
disingenuous too? I think so.
And again, I have no doubt at all that those involved feel they developed
something good too. I'm *not* saying they developed it only for their own
selfish benefit and had no other motivations. Just the opposite. They
felt they had some good ideas and wanted to develop them into a spec that
ALSO offered the opportunity to make money. That's great, really and
truly it is!
All I'm saying is that you don't after the fact hype that goodness without
at least acknowledging the other motivation because that is, to some
degree, dishonest. That's my view of it anyway. To what degree is for
each person to decide though. Some people will dismiss it as simply part
of marketing, but it leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
> Now, directly to your point of commercial interests. You say "JSF is
> a way for a lot of people to make money." What is Java? Do you
> think Sun developed Java as a "love offering" to the developer
> community? Why do any of these organizations exist? For that
> matter, why do I develop software? Is it because I've found the
> meaning of life or simply because it's better than working at a
> rendering plant? Well, for me it's somewhere in the middle. But for
> organizations like Sun, Oracle, or BEA, it's all about the
> economics. I'm not talking about the individuals that work at these
> companies. I'm talking about the organizations themselves. At the
> organizational level, they are solely about increasing financial
> gain. And I'm not saying that's bad. If they weren't they would
> quickly go out of business. People start companies to grow
> business. People start non-profit organizations (like ASF) for the
> betterment of mankind. So I guess I find the argument of commercial
> interests to be completely irrelevant.
You've just described capitalism, and I agree 100%!... with my one
reiterated caveat: admit that's the case.
> I like some aspects of JSF and I dislike others. For some tasks I
> find it vastly superior to Struts. For others I find it difficult to
> use. Now *maybe* if JSF was developed in a community instead of a
> committee it would be less intrusive and more useful. But that's one
> of the reasons I have hope for Shale. It starts with the foundation
> of the JSF standard. It then builds on the foundation in a community-
> centric way and that has the possibility of resulting in something
> very useful.
Interestingly, this whole thread has been purely theoretical/philosophical
:) Which is fine, I think these types of discussions are valuable every
now and again. From a purely *technical* standpoint though, as I've said
before, I'm not at this point a fan of JSF. That being said, I'm in no
way dismissing it forever. In fact, I look forward to the next major rev
as I hear a great many things are being addressed that may well make it
more paletable to me. Where it came from and the motivations behind it
are at this point largely just a historical discussion. Where it is and
where its going is far more interesting to me :)
> Greg
Frank
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Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Greg Reddin <gr...@apache.org>.
On Mar 14, 2006, at 10:25 PM, Frank W. Zammetti wrote:
> JSF is a way for a lot of people to make money. Many vendors have
> a stake in its "commercial" success or failure. This has been true
> from the beginning. Some would say the whole point of JSF from the
> start was to make money for one company, and eventually a lot of
> other companies. Incidentally, I'm a happy capitalist, I therefore
> have no problem whatsoever with that! I just like that fact not
> being denied, and I for one do see it as fact. Contrast this with
> how something like Struts began, which came straight from the
> idealism you speak of, a desire to help a community, a desire by
> one developer to create something that not only helped themselves
> but helped others. I think that is a wonderful motivation. And
> that may have been that same developers' motivation with JSF as
> well, but I to this day do not believe it was the motivation of the
> larger entities involved.
I find it ironic that people are bemoaning JSF for its commercial
interests. First, I seem to remember sometime between 2001 and 2003
there were a lot of people asking "When is Struts going to become a
JSR?". So, for the moment let's just pretend that the motivation for
JSR-127 was to standardize an MVC framework. By the time JSR-127 was
introduced we were already discussing the things we'd do differently
in version 2 of Struts. Surely we didn't think the output of JSR-127
would be Struts as we knew it then. Surely we wouldn't have been
happy if it had.
Second, look at who is represented on the Expert Group for JSR-127.
Why would companies like Oracle, Borland, IBM, Macromedia, BEA, HP,
etc. bother to participate in a such project if they weren't
protecting their own interests? Just look at how many tool-makers
are present among the expert group. Is it any wonder the resulting
spec brings them the opportunity to cash in? That's not even to
mention all the other community-driven framework options that were in
play when JSF was under development. Personally, I think the
resulting framework is not too bad considering. I would've liked the
Struts worldview to have been better represented - or maybe I am
saying the "tool-less" developer's worldview. But given all the
players, I'm not surprised or disappointed with what we have.
Now, directly to your point of commercial interests. You say "JSF is
a way for a lot of people to make money." What is Java? Do you
think Sun developed Java as a "love offering" to the developer
community? Why do any of these organizations exist? For that
matter, why do I develop software? Is it because I've found the
meaning of life or simply because it's better than working at a
rendering plant? Well, for me it's somewhere in the middle. But for
organizations like Sun, Oracle, or BEA, it's all about the
economics. I'm not talking about the individuals that work at these
companies. I'm talking about the organizations themselves. At the
organizational level, they are solely about increasing financial
gain. And I'm not saying that's bad. If they weren't they would
quickly go out of business. People start companies to grow
business. People start non-profit organizations (like ASF) for the
betterment of mankind. So I guess I find the argument of commercial
interests to be completely irrelevant.
I like some aspects of JSF and I dislike others. For some tasks I
find it vastly superior to Struts. For others I find it difficult to
use. Now *maybe* if JSF was developed in a community instead of a
committee it would be less intrusive and more useful. But that's one
of the reasons I have hope for Shale. It starts with the foundation
of the JSF standard. It then builds on the foundation in a community-
centric way and that has the possibility of resulting in something
very useful.
Greg
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Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by "Frank W. Zammetti" <fz...@omnytex.com>.
Ted Husted wrote:
>>>From an open source perspective, terms like "succeed" and "fail" have
> very different meanings. How many lurkers use a product isn't
> important. What's important is how many people are willing to put ego
> aside and collaborate on a product.
Yes, that's the idealism of the open source perspective. I don't
dispute that at all. But let's step back and be pragmatic for just a
minute. JSF is a way for a lot of people to make money. Many vendors
have a stake in its "commercial" success or failure. This has been true
from the beginning. Some would say the whole point of JSF from the
start was to make money for one company, and eventually a lot of other
companies. Incidentally, I'm a happy capitalist, I therefore have no
problem whatsoever with that! I just like that fact not being denied,
and I for one do see it as fact. Contrast this with how something like
Struts began, which came straight from the idealism you speak of, a
desire to help a community, a desire by one developer to create
something that not only helped themselves but helped others. I think
that is a wonderful motivation. And that may have been that same
developers' motivation with JSF as well, but I to this day do not
believe it was the motivation of the larger entities involved.
So, while there may be certain meanings in those two words "succeed" and
fail", from a community perspective, there is also a meaning from a
larger perspective, and it isn't the same.
Frankly though, that's all noise in my mind... putting that all aside
though, *I* was talking about success or failure in terms of developer
mindshare, and nothing more. This is where I don't think any conclusion
has been reached yet. Personally, I hope things continue as they are
right now: JSF is one choice among many. That to me seems the best
state of being. Options are good. JSF is an option. Therefore, in at
least one sense, JSF is good :) It should be able to develop and grow
its community, and if it winds up being what everyone decides they want
to use, great! It shouldn't become that because some corporate entities
have a stake in it becoming that.
> Right now, we have volunteers who are ready, willing, and able to
> contribute to the Shale codebase. We also have volunteers contributing
> to Action and Action2.
Exactly as it should be. I'd hate it if it were any other way, honestly.
> The reason these products all live at Struts is because the *people*
> who are building the products feel like we are all part of the same
> team. We share the same values, and we are trying to solve the same
> problems, even if we are solving them with different flavors of the
> same underlying technologies. It's not up to anyone else. It's up to
> the 15 members of the Apache Struts PMC, all of which have different
> employers, and all of which have an equal say.
Again, no problem. As you have pointed out many times, those that do
the work set the direction. Again, as it should be. However, whatever
the original intent, Struts has become a powerful brand. You can recite
whatever philosophical ideals you want, but that doesn't change the
reality of what Struts has become. As such, those making the decisions,
have a certain responsibility IMO to "do right" by the brand.
Of course, what "doing right" means is absolutely debatable :) I for
one do not have any major problem with how things are at the moment. I
did a few months back, but frankly it seems like the concerns I had have
been addressed reasonably well for the most part. It looks like Paul
might not agree :) As long as no one silences anyone else just because
their opinion doesn't jive with your won ("your" being anyone, not you
specifically Ted) then things are still as they should be.
> For us, it's not about branding or marketshare or any of that. It's
> about volunteer share. It's about which products that we, as
> engineeers, want to use to build our own applications.
This is where I do happen to disagree with you Ted. As I said earlier,
Struts has become something more to a great many people. Many
businesses rely on Struts. Many peoples' livelihoods depend on Struts.
I hope you would agree with those statements. Because of that, you
take on a greater responsibility than simply contributing. Of course
you should be guided to a large degree by what you want to use to build
your own applications. That's understandable and appropriate. But it
you don't see yourself having a larger responsibility because of what
Struts is to many people, I don't think you completely appreciate the
position you have (again, I'm not speaking directly to you Ted, this is
the metaphorical "you").
This goes for any open-source project. Linus is still guided by what he
wants to see in Linux, but I dare say he realizes he has a larger
responsibility because of what Linux has become. His actions bear that
out I think. The same should be true for any extremely popular
open-source project IMO.
> When people discuss our products, it's easy to miss the true point of
> an Apache project. It's not about creating technology, it's about
> *people* creating technologies. It's about real engineers working
> together to solve our own problems. If our solutions solve other
> people's problems too, that's great, but, for us, marketshare is not
> the point of the exercise.
But it has *become* at least *part* of the exercise. Struts has. When
an open-source project gets to a certain level of acceptance, there
*has* to be a point where responsibility to others kicks in.
You know, we're always talking about building community... it seems to
me that part of being involved in a community is responsibility to
others. You can't be part of a community and yet exist in a vacuum. If
you take on a role as a leader in an open-source project, you have to
understand that other people are in fact counting on you. Yes, it is
there choice to do so, and they accept a certain degree of risk in doing
so, but don't you have at least *some* obligation to them as a leader in
that project? We can debate the degrees here, but can we really debate
that underlying thesis?
> -Ted.
Frank
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Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Paul Benedict <pa...@yahoo.com>.
Ted, your logic is direct and understandable. I know you've
expressed this same feedback before, but it doesn't
address the concerns of those who are concerned
with the Name of Struts. I know your focus is on the people,
the problem solving, etc. (and thank you for it), but what
is the NEED to call Shale, "Struts" Shale, if not for the
market share? That's the core of the issue and I don't think
a pure answer like "problem solving" is an effective answer.
As a few people have noted, there are suspicions that Shale
is about bolstering the importance of JSF to the
detriment of the Action framework. I find this logical and
readily visible. Maybe there's some other great open-source
JSF framework out there that's competing with Shale, but I
don't know of any other Shale-look-a-likes: it seems like it is
the ONLY controller out there that's really trying to assist JSF.
(That's fine! By all means, develop it in joy... but under a different name.)
And since JSF came out of the experience of Struts, I am telling you,
it really looks like Shale is supposed to knock off the
Action framework. I don't think I am seeing illusions here
or crying wolf or making a frivolous point.
I think the people who complain about the "Struts" of Shale
have very substantial merit to their point: the "Struts"
of Shale IS about marketing: Shale props JSF, JSF props Sun,
and Sun gets a big win by gaining "mind-share" in the MVC
marketplace.... if the JSF standard "wins" the marketplace, Struts
Action will be olde school or "classic" :-) and the adoption
rate will diminish heavily. I totally disagree this is about
the pureness of community work; I am glad++ Rod Johnson said
something similar because it validates++ my concern.
-- Paul
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Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Ted Husted <te...@gmail.com>.
On 3/14/06, Frank W. Zammetti <fz...@omnytex.com> wrote:
> I don't think the final chapter in the "will JSF
> succeed or fail" book has been written yet, and there doesn't seem to be
> a consensus on where it stands right now.
>From an open source perspective, terms like "succeed" and "fail" have
very different meanings. How many lurkers use a product isn't
important. What's important is how many people are willing to put ego
aside and collaborate on a product.
Right now, we have volunteers who are ready, willing, and able to
contribute to the Shale codebase. We also have volunteers contributing
to Action and Action2.
The reason these products all live at Struts is because the *people*
who are building the products feel like we are all part of the same
team. We share the same values, and we are trying to solve the same
problems, even if we are solving them with different flavors of the
same underlying technologies. It's not up to anyone else. It's up to
the 15 members of the Apache Struts PMC, all of which have different
employers, and all of which have an equal say.
For us, it's not about branding or marketshare or any of that. It's
about volunteer share. It's about which products that we, as
engineeers, want to use to build our own applications.
When people discuss our products, it's easy to miss the true point of
an Apache project. It's not about creating technology, it's about
*people* creating technologies. It's about real engineers working
together to solve our own problems. If our solutions solve other
people's problems too, that's great, but, for us, marketshare is not
the point of the exercise.
-Ted.
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Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Paul Benedict <pa...@yahoo.com>.
>> I don't think the final chapter in the "will JSF
>> succeed or fail" book has been written yet
You don't have "Will JSF Success or Fail in Action" by Manning?
--- "Frank W. Zammetti" <fz...@omnytex.com> wrote:
> I know *many* people who have and are coming to the same conclusion as
> your unnamed guru.
>
> HOWEVER, to be fair about it, there are just as many people with exactly
> the opposite opinion. I don't think the final chapter in the "will JSF
> succeed or fail" book has been written yet, and there doesn't seem to be
> a consensus on where it stands right now.
>
> Vendors and boosters will tell you its an unqualified success, but I for
> one am not hearing the same thing from the people that have to actually
> use it and decide between it and the alternatives. Just the opposite in
> my experience. Now, maybe my contact network is limited and not giving
> me an accurate picture. Then again, maybe it is giving me a PERFECTLY
> accurate picture. I don't know which it is.
>
> Doesn't really matter. JSF is an ALTERNATIVE. As such, I'm glad it's
> around. Whether it's ever the de facto standard in Java web development
> or not, it's fleshing out new ideas. That in and of itself has got to
> be viewed as a positive. You won't catch me jumping on the bandwagon
> any time soon, but nor will I bid it a premature goodbye. I'll wait and
> see, even though it's been this way for a while now.
>
> Frank
>
> Hey Nony Moose wrote:
> > Paul Benedict wrote:
> >
> >> ... I am truly happy WebWork
> >> is becoming Struts 2.0 because the action framework, imo, is
> >> the only product that deserves the name "Struts" -- and Shale
> >> should leave the repository for its own pastures. I can't escape
> >> my perception of what Shale is (marketing campaign for JSF) and
> >> so I don't think I'll be leaving my opinion behind soon.
> >>
> > now I'm certainly a nobody in the programming world, but I was talking
> > with a somebody a few days ago (local j2ee guru, lead coder for some
> > open source apps too - and no I'm not going to name him - that's his
> > privacy respected - it was personal advice). i mentioned that i was
> > using traditional struts and that perhaps i should get into jsf/shale,
> > and he remarked "no, stick with core struts. in fact, if you can, move
> > over to using the v2 / webwork version. jsf is not gaining momentum."
> > gosh, now i'm both breaking the "cite your sources" maxim, and backing
> > up some Dakota Jack leads (and I use an anon id!) ... this could get ugly!
> > Moose on the Loose in the Hoose
> >
> >
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> >
> >
> >
> >
>
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>
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Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by "Frank W. Zammetti" <fz...@omnytex.com>.
I know *many* people who have and are coming to the same conclusion as
your unnamed guru.
HOWEVER, to be fair about it, there are just as many people with exactly
the opposite opinion. I don't think the final chapter in the "will JSF
succeed or fail" book has been written yet, and there doesn't seem to be
a consensus on where it stands right now.
Vendors and boosters will tell you its an unqualified success, but I for
one am not hearing the same thing from the people that have to actually
use it and decide between it and the alternatives. Just the opposite in
my experience. Now, maybe my contact network is limited and not giving
me an accurate picture. Then again, maybe it is giving me a PERFECTLY
accurate picture. I don't know which it is.
Doesn't really matter. JSF is an ALTERNATIVE. As such, I'm glad it's
around. Whether it's ever the de facto standard in Java web development
or not, it's fleshing out new ideas. That in and of itself has got to
be viewed as a positive. You won't catch me jumping on the bandwagon
any time soon, but nor will I bid it a premature goodbye. I'll wait and
see, even though it's been this way for a while now.
Frank
Hey Nony Moose wrote:
> Paul Benedict wrote:
>
>> ... I am truly happy WebWork
>> is becoming Struts 2.0 because the action framework, imo, is
>> the only product that deserves the name "Struts" -- and Shale
>> should leave the repository for its own pastures. I can't escape
>> my perception of what Shale is (marketing campaign for JSF) and
>> so I don't think I'll be leaving my opinion behind soon.
>>
> now I'm certainly a nobody in the programming world, but I was talking
> with a somebody a few days ago (local j2ee guru, lead coder for some
> open source apps too - and no I'm not going to name him - that's his
> privacy respected - it was personal advice). i mentioned that i was
> using traditional struts and that perhaps i should get into jsf/shale,
> and he remarked "no, stick with core struts. in fact, if you can, move
> over to using the v2 / webwork version. jsf is not gaining momentum."
> gosh, now i'm both breaking the "cite your sources" maxim, and backing
> up some Dakota Jack leads (and I use an anon id!) ... this could get ugly!
> Moose on the Loose in the Hoose
>
>
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Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Hey Nony Moose <he...@liveonthe.net>.
Paul Benedict wrote:
>... I am truly happy WebWork
>is becoming Struts 2.0 because the action framework, imo, is
>the only product that deserves the name "Struts" -- and Shale
>should leave the repository for its own pastures. I can't escape
>my perception of what Shale is (marketing campaign for JSF) and
>so I don't think I'll be leaving my opinion behind soon.
>
now I'm certainly a nobody in the programming world, but I was talking
with a somebody a few days ago (local j2ee guru, lead coder for some
open source apps too - and no I'm not going to name him - that's his
privacy respected - it was personal advice). i mentioned that i was
using traditional struts and that perhaps i should get into jsf/shale,
and he remarked "no, stick with core struts. in fact, if you can, move
over to using the v2 / webwork version. jsf is not gaining momentum."
gosh, now i'm both breaking the "cite your sources" maxim, and backing
up some Dakota Jack leads (and I use an anon id!) ... this could get ugly!
Moose on the Loose in the Hoose
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Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Paul Benedict <pa...@yahoo.com>.
I totally agree with Rod Johnson! I don't know why so many people
are quiet about this topic when the truth of Shale is obvious
to anyone who paid attention to these boards, and the number of
commits that go into Shale vs. Struts. I've voiced this before,
but I usually don't get good reception. I am truly happy WebWork
is becoming Struts 2.0 because the action framework, imo, is
the only product that deserves the name "Struts" -- and Shale
should leave the repository for its own pastures. I can't escape
my perception of what Shale is (marketing campaign for JSF) and
so I don't think I'll be leaving my opinion behind soon.
Paul
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Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Dakota Jack <da...@gmail.com>.
How about those? You cannot describe something by attempting to be ignorant
about it. At least try to feign fairness.
http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/struts-user/200502.mbox/%3Ce030143005020108042bc5c48e@mail.gmail.com%3E
http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/struts-user/200503.mbox/%3C422E6AE3.2000702@gridnode.com%3E
http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/struts-dev/200501.mbox/%3Ce030143005011806482181511c@mail.gmail.com%3E
How about those?
On 3/13/06, Niall Pemberton <ni...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>
> How about this?
>
> http://www.mail-archive.com/dev@struts.apache.org/msg14112.html
>
> Niall
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Dakota Jack" <da...@gmail.com>
> Sent: Monday, March 13, 2006 5:11 PM
>
>
> I would like you to point out where I said "this is what I read" or
> "this is what I heard", Craig. Why don't you point out where you saw
> this. The real problem with you is that I don't care for your pet
> projects. You are political. I am not. Big deal. I have nothing to
> sell. So, if this gentleman is supposed to point out what he is
> talking about, why don't you? Show where I did that. The truth is,
> as usual, you are just bullshitting.
>
> On 3/12/06, Craig McClanahan <cr...@apache.org> wrote:
> > On 3/12/06, Jubin Kuriakose <ju...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > > I've got a bit of advice for you ... either point at the opinions
> you
> > > are
> > > > referring to directly (so people can evaluate them for themselves),
> or
> > > > people are going to think you are yet another clone of Dakota Jack
> :-).
> > >
> > >
> > > Wht did u mean by that ??
> >
> >
> >
> > I mean that people who say "this is what I heard" or "this is what I
> read",
> > without giving others a chance to evaluate what *you* are basing your
> > opinions on, are less likely to pay as much credence to your remarks as
> you
> > might like. Unsubstantiated comments come across like rumors, innuendo,
> and
> > FUD rather than sincere questions.
> >
> > Search the archives of this list and you will see classic examples of a
> > person who illustrates this behavior pattern, and gets ignored by a wide
> > part of the community *because* of that behavior.
> >
> > If you heard something, tell us *where* you heard it and *who* said it.
> > Otherwise, nobody has a clue whether it is something we should pay
> attention
> > to, or whether it is just noise.
> >
> > Craig
>
>
>
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>
>
--
"You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back."
~Dakota Jack~
Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Jubin Kuriakose <ju...@gmail.com>.
ah ok leave it...
On 3/14/06, Hey Nony Moose <he...@liveonthe.net> wrote:
>
> I think you'll find the problem here ...
>
> Jubin Kuriakose wrote:
>
> >are u all DAM!! (reverse it... There seems to be some filter)
> >
> >>>Dakota Jack wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>... b,u,l,l,s,h,i,t ...
> >>>>
>
>
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>
>
Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Hey Nony Moose <he...@liveonthe.net>.
I think you'll find the problem here ...
Jubin Kuriakose wrote:
>are u all DAM!! (reverse it... There seems to be some filter)
>
>>>Dakota Jack wrote:
>>>
>>>>... b,u,l,l,s,h,i,t ...
>>>>
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Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Jubin Kuriakose <ju...@gmail.com>.
are u all DAM!! (reverse it... There seems to be some filter)
On 3/14/06, Jubin Kuriakose <ju...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> On 3/14/06, Hey Nony Moose <he...@liveonthe.net> wrote:
> >
> > StrutsUser craig = StrutsUserList.getUserWithRealIdentity("Craig
> > McClanahan");
> > StrutsUser dakjak = StrutsUserList.getUserWithFalseIdentity("Dakota
> > Jack");
> >
> > assertTrue( craig.getCredibility() >> dakjak.getCredibility() ); //
> > using overloaded operator "is much greater than"
> > assertTrue( craig.getSkillDepth() >> dakjak.getSkillDepth() );
> > assertTrue( craig.getAuthenticPositiveContributions() >>
> > dakjak.getAuthenticPositiveContributions() );
> > assertTrue( craig.getReactionaryFlames () << dakjak.getReactionaryFlames()
> > );
> >
> > assertTrue( StrutsUserList.isThisThreadTotallyBanal() );
> > assertSarcasm( StrutsUserList.isntDemocracyWonderful() );
> >
> > Listener curious = new QuestionListener ("Where exactly do you come
> > from, since you raise the point?");
> >
> >
> > Dakota Jack wrote:
> >
> > >You know, when someone like Craig decides to pick me out for a bullshit
> > >attack, I am going to respond. Talk to Craig. He seems to find
> > himself
> > >totally immune from what he jumps on other people for at will. Where I
> > come
> > >from there is a name for that.
> > >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
> >
> >
>
Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Jubin Kuriakose <ju...@gmail.com>.
are u all mad..................
On 3/14/06, Hey Nony Moose <he...@liveonthe.net> wrote:
>
> StrutsUser craig = StrutsUserList.getUserWithRealIdentity("Craig
> McClanahan");
> StrutsUser dakjak = StrutsUserList.getUserWithFalseIdentity("Dakota
> Jack");
>
> assertTrue( craig.getCredibility() >> dakjak.getCredibility() ); //
> using overloaded operator "is much greater than"
> assertTrue( craig.getSkillDepth() >> dakjak.getSkillDepth() );
> assertTrue( craig.getAuthenticPositiveContributions() >>
> dakjak.getAuthenticPositiveContributions() );
> assertTrue( craig.getReactionaryFlames() << dakjak.getReactionaryFlames()
> );
>
> assertTrue( StrutsUserList.isThisThreadTotallyBanal() );
> assertSarcasm( StrutsUserList.isntDemocracyWonderful() );
>
> Listener curious = new QuestionListener ("Where exactly do you come
> from, since you raise the point?");
>
>
> Dakota Jack wrote:
>
> >You know, when someone like Craig decides to pick me out for a bullshit
> >attack, I am going to respond. Talk to Craig. He seems to find himself
> >totally immune from what he jumps on other people for at will. Where I
> come
> >from there is a name for that.
> >
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
>
Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Hey Nony Moose <he...@liveonthe.net>.
A truly candid statement indeed.
Jubin Kuriakose wrote:
>how come dakota gets to say bullshit but i can't seem to get pass the
>administrators filter with my vocabulary.???
>
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Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Jubin Kuriakose <ju...@gmail.com>.
how come dakota gets to say bullshit but i can't seem to get pass the
administrators filter with my vocabulary.???
On 3/14/06, Hey Nony Moose <he...@liveonthe.net> wrote:
>
> StrutsUser craig = StrutsUserList.getUserWithRealIdentity("Craig
> McClanahan");
> StrutsUser dakjak = StrutsUserList.getUserWithFalseIdentity("Dakota
> Jack");
>
> assertTrue( craig.getCredibility() >> dakjak.getCredibility() ); //
> using overloaded operator "is much greater than"
> assertTrue( craig.getSkillDepth() >> dakjak.getSkillDepth() );
> assertTrue( craig.getAuthenticPositiveContributions() >>
> dakjak.getAuthenticPositiveContributions() );
> assertTrue( craig.getReactionaryFlames() << dakjak.getReactionaryFlames()
> );
>
> assertTrue( StrutsUserList.isThisThreadTotallyBanal() );
> assertSarcasm( StrutsUserList.isntDemocracyWonderful() );
>
> Listener curious = new QuestionListener ("Where exactly do you come
> from, since you raise the point?");
>
>
> Dakota Jack wrote:
>
> >You know, when someone like Craig decides to pick me out for a bullshit
> >attack, I am going to respond. Talk to Craig. He seems to find himself
> >totally immune from what he jumps on other people for at will. Where I
> come
> >from there is a name for that.
> >
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
>
>
Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Hey Nony Moose <he...@liveonthe.net>.
StrutsUser craig = StrutsUserList.getUserWithRealIdentity("Craig
McClanahan");
StrutsUser dakjak = StrutsUserList.getUserWithFalseIdentity("Dakota Jack");
assertTrue( craig.getCredibility() >> dakjak.getCredibility() ); //
using overloaded operator "is much greater than"
assertTrue( craig.getSkillDepth() >> dakjak.getSkillDepth() );
assertTrue( craig.getAuthenticPositiveContributions() >>
dakjak.getAuthenticPositiveContributions() );
assertTrue( craig.getReactionaryFlames() << dakjak.getReactionaryFlames() );
assertTrue( StrutsUserList.isThisThreadTotallyBanal() );
assertSarcasm( StrutsUserList.isntDemocracyWonderful() );
Listener curious = new QuestionListener ("Where exactly do you come
from, since you raise the point?");
Dakota Jack wrote:
>You know, when someone like Craig decides to pick me out for a bullshit
>attack, I am going to respond. Talk to Craig. He seems to find himself
>totally immune from what he jumps on other people for at will. Where I come
>from there is a name for that.
>
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Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Dakota Jack <da...@gmail.com>.
You know, when someone like Craig decides to pick me out for a bullshit
attack, I am going to respond. Talk to Craig. He seems to find himself
totally immune from what he jumps on other people for at will. Where I come
from there is a name for that.
On 3/13/06, Dave Newton <ne...@pingsite.com> wrote:
>
> Niall Pemberton wrote:
> > How about this?
> >
> > http://www.mail-archive.com/dev@struts.apache.org/msg14112.html
> >
>
> *sigh*
>
> We were doing so well!
>
> ;)
>
> Dave
>
>
>
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>
>
--
"You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back."
~Dakota Jack~
Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Dakota Jack <da...@gmail.com>.
How about that? Read my reply to Craig.
On 3/13/06, Dave Newton <ne...@pingsite.com> wrote:
>
> Niall Pemberton wrote:
> > How about this?
> >
> > http://www.mail-archive.com/dev@struts.apache.org/msg14112.html
> >
>
> *sigh*
>
> We were doing so well!
>
> ;)
>
> Dave
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: user-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: user-help@struts.apache.org
>
>
--
"You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back."
~Dakota Jack~
Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Dave Newton <ne...@pingsite.com>.
Niall Pemberton wrote:
> How about this?
>
> http://www.mail-archive.com/dev@struts.apache.org/msg14112.html
>
*sigh*
We were doing so well!
;)
Dave
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Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Niall Pemberton <ni...@blueyonder.co.uk>.
How about this?
http://www.mail-archive.com/dev@struts.apache.org/msg14112.html
Niall
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dakota Jack" <da...@gmail.com>
Sent: Monday, March 13, 2006 5:11 PM
I would like you to point out where I said "this is what I read" or
"this is what I heard", Craig. Why don't you point out where you saw
this. The real problem with you is that I don't care for your pet
projects. You are political. I am not. Big deal. I have nothing to
sell. So, if this gentleman is supposed to point out what he is
talking about, why don't you? Show where I did that. The truth is,
as usual, you are just bullshitting.
On 3/12/06, Craig McClanahan <cr...@apache.org> wrote:
> On 3/12/06, Jubin Kuriakose <ju...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > I've got a bit of advice for you ... either point at the opinions you
> > are
> > > referring to directly (so people can evaluate them for themselves), or
> > > people are going to think you are yet another clone of Dakota Jack
:-).
> >
> >
> > Wht did u mean by that ??
>
>
>
> I mean that people who say "this is what I heard" or "this is what I
read",
> without giving others a chance to evaluate what *you* are basing your
> opinions on, are less likely to pay as much credence to your remarks as
you
> might like. Unsubstantiated comments come across like rumors, innuendo,
and
> FUD rather than sincere questions.
>
> Search the archives of this list and you will see classic examples of a
> person who illustrates this behavior pattern, and gets ignored by a wide
> part of the community *because* of that behavior.
>
> If you heard something, tell us *where* you heard it and *who* said it.
> Otherwise, nobody has a clue whether it is something we should pay
attention
> to, or whether it is just noise.
>
> Craig
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Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Dakota Jack <da...@gmail.com>.
I would like you to point out where I said "this is what I read" or
"this is what I heard", Craig. Why don't you point out where you saw
this. The real problem with you is that I don't care for your pet
projects. You are political. I am not. Big deal. I have nothing to
sell. So, if this gentleman is supposed to point out what he is
talking about, why don't you? Show where I did that. The truth is,
as usual, you are just bullshitting.
On 3/12/06, Craig McClanahan <cr...@apache.org> wrote:
> On 3/12/06, Jubin Kuriakose <ju...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > I've got a bit of advice for you ... either point at the opinions you
> > are
> > > referring to directly (so people can evaluate them for themselves), or
> > > people are going to think you are yet another clone of Dakota Jack :-).
> >
> >
> > Wht did u mean by that ??
>
>
>
> I mean that people who say "this is what I heard" or "this is what I read",
> without giving others a chance to evaluate what *you* are basing your
> opinions on, are less likely to pay as much credence to your remarks as you
> might like. Unsubstantiated comments come across like rumors, innuendo, and
> FUD rather than sincere questions.
>
> Search the archives of this list and you will see classic examples of a
> person who illustrates this behavior pattern, and gets ignored by a wide
> part of the community *because* of that behavior.
>
> If you heard something, tell us *where* you heard it and *who* said it.
> Otherwise, nobody has a clue whether it is something we should pay attention
> to, or whether it is just noise.
>
> Craig
>
>
--
"You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back."
~Dakota Jack~
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Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Craig McClanahan <cr...@apache.org>.
On 3/12/06, Jubin Kuriakose <ju...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >
> > I've got a bit of advice for you ... either point at the opinions you
> are
> > referring to directly (so people can evaluate them for themselves), or
> > people are going to think you are yet another clone of Dakota Jack :-).
>
>
> Wht did u mean by that ??
I mean that people who say "this is what I heard" or "this is what I read",
without giving others a chance to evaluate what *you* are basing your
opinions on, are less likely to pay as much credence to your remarks as you
might like. Unsubstantiated comments come across like rumors, innuendo, and
FUD rather than sincere questions.
Search the archives of this list and you will see classic examples of a
person who illustrates this behavior pattern, and gets ignored by a wide
part of the community *because* of that behavior.
If you heard something, tell us *where* you heard it and *who* said it.
Otherwise, nobody has a clue whether it is something we should pay attention
to, or whether it is just noise.
Craig
Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Jubin Kuriakose <ju...@gmail.com>.
>
> I've got a bit of advice for you ... either point at the opinions you are
> referring to directly (so people can evaluate them for themselves), or
> people are going to think you are yet another clone of Dakota Jack :-).
Wht did u mean by that ??
Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Craig McClanahan <cr...@apache.org>.
On 3/12/06, Jubin Kuriakose <ju...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hi
> I have heard that struts have reached a saturation point and nothing more
> can be build over it. New frame works like spring would take over struts.
> How valid are these opinions.
I've got a bit of advice for you ... either point at the opinions you are
referring to directly (so people can evaluate them for themselves), or
people are going to think you are yet another clone of Dakota Jack :-).
sncerely jubs
>
>
Craig
Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Laurie Harper <la...@holoweb.net>.
Ted Husted wrote:
> On 3/12/06, Jubin Kuriakose <ju...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> I have heard that struts have reached a saturation point and nothing more
>> can be build over it. New frame works like spring would take over struts.
>> How valid are these opinions.
>
> Why traffic in opinions? Spend a few minutes browsing Planet Struts
> and Struts Central and make a decision based on true facts.
>
> * http://www.PlanetStruts.org/
>
> * http://www.StrutsCentral.net/
>
> -- HTH, Ted.
> ** http://www.husted.com/ted/blog/
Why does the phrase 'true facts' make me shiver and think of George
Orwell? ;-)
L.
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Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Ted Husted <te...@gmail.com>.
On 3/12/06, Jubin Kuriakose <ju...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I have heard that struts have reached a saturation point and nothing more
> can be build over it. New frame works like spring would take over struts.
> How valid are these opinions.
Why traffic in opinions? Spend a few minutes browsing Planet Struts
and Struts Central and make a decision based on true facts.
* http://www.PlanetStruts.org/
* http://www.StrutsCentral.net/
-- HTH, Ted.
** http://www.husted.com/ted/blog/
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Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Michael Jouravlev <jm...@gmail.com>.
On 3/12/06, Jubin Kuriakose <ju...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi
> I have heard that struts have reached a saturation point and nothing more
> can be build over it. New frame works like spring would take over struts.
> How valid are these opinions.
RTFA, where A stands for archives.
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Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by Jubin Kuriakose <ju...@gmail.com>.
Hmm... I read on a link on another post the following
Some might say that the Spring framework just *handles* Struts better than
> Struts handles itself
>
So the conclusion is Struts is mature and stable like Frank Zammetti said
and any more revolutionary concept or any added eye opening functionality
can only be brought in by a new framework , like Spring.
As such the struts frame work is dependent of the servlet container where as
the spring framework is a light weight container and the current swing is
towards lighter containers.
On 3/13/06, Frank W. Zammetti <fz...@omnytex.com> wrote:
>
> Just the opposite actually. I think if, as Michael says, you browse
> through the list archives over the last year, you will see that there
> has been quite a bit of activity building Struts up.
>
> I think the thing that makes people think Struts has stagnated is that
> it moves at a slow pace, slower than many other frameworks. But I think
> that isn't looking at it with the proper perspective. Struts is STABLE
> and MATURE, and hence has no need to progress at a breakneck pace any
> more.
>
> Spring, Wicket, WebWork, JSF, RoR, etc., all of these are trying to
> compete with something (in terms of mindshare) and take over the top
> spot from something that does the job for a great many of us and has
> built up a fabulous community over a number of years. To think this
> will happen overnight is folly. It in fact may not happen at all. But
> in either case, Struts will continue to progress and in fact learn
> lessons from the other frameworks... witness the migration to Chain in
> 1.3, I suspect because of the influence of JSF, and of course the
> planned merging of WebWork itself.
>
> No, Struts has not reached a saturation point. It has reached a point
> of maturity where it doesn't need to be revolutionary. Let the other
> frameworks blaze some new trails for a while, try some new ideas...
> there's nothing wrong with that. Struts is like that Ford truck in the
> garage... it may not have all the latest bells and whistles that the
> newer models do, but it's still the workhorse you haul all your stuff
> with! And, over time, you'll find that you mod it up a bit anyway too!
>
> Frank
>
> Jubin Kuriakose wrote:
> > Hi
> > I have heard that struts have reached a saturation point and nothing
> more
> > can be build over it. New frame works like spring would take over
> struts.
> > How valid are these opinions.
> >
> > sncerely jubs
> >
>
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Re: has struts reached the saturation
Posted by "Frank W. Zammetti" <fz...@omnytex.com>.
Just the opposite actually. I think if, as Michael says, you browse
through the list archives over the last year, you will see that there
has been quite a bit of activity building Struts up.
I think the thing that makes people think Struts has stagnated is that
it moves at a slow pace, slower than many other frameworks. But I think
that isn't looking at it with the proper perspective. Struts is STABLE
and MATURE, and hence has no need to progress at a breakneck pace any more.
Spring, Wicket, WebWork, JSF, RoR, etc., all of these are trying to
compete with something (in terms of mindshare) and take over the top
spot from something that does the job for a great many of us and has
built up a fabulous community over a number of years. To think this
will happen overnight is folly. It in fact may not happen at all. But
in either case, Struts will continue to progress and in fact learn
lessons from the other frameworks... witness the migration to Chain in
1.3, I suspect because of the influence of JSF, and of course the
planned merging of WebWork itself.
No, Struts has not reached a saturation point. It has reached a point
of maturity where it doesn't need to be revolutionary. Let the other
frameworks blaze some new trails for a while, try some new ideas...
there's nothing wrong with that. Struts is like that Ford truck in the
garage... it may not have all the latest bells and whistles that the
newer models do, but it's still the workhorse you haul all your stuff
with! And, over time, you'll find that you mod it up a bit anyway too!
Frank
Jubin Kuriakose wrote:
> Hi
> I have heard that struts have reached a saturation point and nothing more
> can be build over it. New frame works like spring would take over struts.
> How valid are these opinions.
>
> sncerely jubs
>
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