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Posted to general@incubator.apache.org by Jay Zylstra <ja...@zylstra.us> on 2003/11/22 02:38:08 UTC
Apache Gallery Project
I've used Apache code throughout my products for years, including JServ
and Tomcat, Xerces and Xalan, SOAP, Log4J, some Xang, and now Struts.
Apache has saved me countless hours of effort, for which I've tried to
repay Apache by helping where I can. However, there is one common
component to my products that I've had to deal with on my own, even
though it has little to do with my products' actual function: the
artwork. It sounds so simple, and to a graphic artist it may be, but
creating icons to represent people, files, images, and so forth, and
buttons, tabs, and on and on can take me forever, and my creations never
look as good as those in Microsoft Windows or on major Web sites.
Of course, I can't just grab Microsoft's Windows icons due to copyright
and licensing issues. Microsoft has made some images available at
http://office.microsoft.com/clipart/, but they aren't of much use in
developing a business Web app. Neither can I grab icons from Mozilla
nor most other open-source projects with good artwork because of their
GPL-like licenses. That leaves me with only four choices:
1) Create my own icons and artwork, even though I'm no artist and
they won't look professional
2) Hire a graphic artist for ~$120/hour to create artwork each and
every time I have a need
3) Buy artwork from a design house, like StockIcons
(http://www.stockicons.com/)
4) Start an LGPL-like project where many share in the free creation
and use of the artwork
As you can probably guess, being a major Apache fan and user, I favor
the latter option. Not only would a shared library of artwork benefit
me because of others' free contributions and improvements to the
collection, but those choosing to use the artwork would contribute to a
stardardized UI for the Web, much as the GUIs from Apple and Microsoft
have become the stardard for PC interfaces. Similar to the Fedora
Artwork project (http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/artwork), the Apache
Gallery project would be licensed under Apache's more liberal LGPL-like
license, which wouldn't force me to open-source my work, and thus
destroy my livelihood. Once incubated, I'm not sure if it would best
belong under Commons or Jakarta. Wherever it would land, it would
consist of icons of various sizes (16x16, 24x24, 32x32 raster, and
resizable vector) and styles (B&W, soft, sharp, etc - see
http://www.stockicons.com/browse.asp for example), as well as other
artwork appropriate to the creation of a Website like buttons, arrows,
tabs, etc. With the exception of some custom artwork for branding, the
bulk of my creative graphical needs would be met by Apache Gallery; The
rest would just be fancy text, which I can easily handle using
PaintShopPro.
Forgive me if such a project already exists or has already been
proposed, or if non-code projects are taboo for Apache, but I believe
that there is a need here that we can help solve. I can't afford to
hire out the creation of all of my graphical needs and then give the
work to Apache, but I can contribute some, then others can join me, as
is the way of Apache.
Jay Zylstra
Jay@Zylstra.us
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Re: Apache Gallery Project
Posted by Brian McCallister <mc...@forthillcompany.com>.
I can almost guarantee that you could get hosted at sourceforge. Beyond
that i don't know of anyone providing hosting for that type of project.
-Brian
On Dec 8, 2003, at 9:32 PM, Jay Zylstra wrote:
> I'll interpret the lack of response to mean this idea doesn't fit
> Apache. Okay. But since the need remains for a free gallery of common
> Web app icons (document, search, print, etc.), does anyone have a
> suggestion of where such a project would fit, or is anyone aware of an
> existing one?
>
> JayZ
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jay Zylstra [mailto:jay@zylstra.us]
> Sent: Saturday, November 22, 2003 11:58 PM
> To: general@incubator.apache.org
> Subject: RE: Apache Gallery Project
>
>
> I didn't mean that the gallery would be under LGPL specifically, but
> something akin to it. As I understand, there are really three types of
> licensing for intellectual property:
> 1) Owner restricts access to the property, and charges to use it
> (Microsoft,
> SCO, etc.)
> 2) Owner allows others to use and enhance the property, but must
> release
> enhancements likewise (GPL)
> 3) Owner allows others to use and enhance the property, and
> enhancements can
> be kept (LGPL, Apache)
>
> I meant that I favor the latter option, since many can use and
> contribute to a shared library, while leveraging it in products to make
> a living by charging for it. As a user of that library, it is then in
> my interest to contribute to its maintenance and enhancement because
> others will then support and build upon those enhancements, and we all
> win. I agree that the ASL 1.1 seems too software-specific for an image
> gallery, considering its explicit reference to source and binary code.
> The best approach would seem to be the creation of a new Apache Media
> License for images, documentation, and other non-code property.
>
> So, now that the LGPL issue is clarified, would something like this
> make
> sense as an Apache project? Since Apache is all about providing the
> common tools and technologies necessary to build Web apps (and other
> apps as well), I think it fits. If not, where would such an effort
> belong? I'm against just starting another lone project on SourceForge,
> because it would just get lost in the crowd.
>
> JayZ
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Henri Yandell [mailto:bayard@generationjava.com]
> Sent: Friday, November 21, 2003 8:57 PM
> To: general@incubator.apache.org
> Subject: Re: Apache Gallery Project
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, 21 Nov 2003, Jay Zylstra wrote:
>
>> 4) Start an LGPL-like project where many share in the free creation
>> and use of the artwork
>>
>> Artwork project (http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/artwork), the
>> Apache Gallery project would be licensed under Apache's more liberal
>> LGPL-like
>
> You need to research the licencing a bit. The Apache licence is far
> more
> libreral than LGPL. There have been questions on LGPL's validity for
> something like Java, it's validity for something like images would seem
> non existent.
>
> Possibly you might want to consider the various documentation licences.
> They may be a better fit than the source code licences like the ASF
> licence.
>
> [OT: It does raise interesting questions over the licencing of Apache
> documentation and images]
>
>> license, which wouldn't force me to open-source my work, and thus
>> destroy my livelihood. Once incubated, I'm not sure if it would best
>> belong under Commons or Jakarta. Wherever it would land, it would
>
> Definitely not Jakarta. It's nothing to do with Java. Equally, it's
> pushing it as to whether it's to do with Commons as it's not something
> that is coming from the Apache commiting community [ie) another Apache
> project].
>
> Whether artwork is something that fits in the Apache realm, I'll leave
> for others to argue over. I see no blatant reason why it could not.
>
> Hen
>
>
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>
>
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RE: Apache Gallery Project
Posted by Jay Zylstra <ja...@zylstra.us>.
I have considered other such UI-centric efforts, but they're all
licensed under GPL, or include GPL-licensed property. One of the
primary reasons I brought the idea of a Web-app artwork gallery to
Apache, besides its obvious utility to those developing Web-apps using
Apache's various other projects, is because of Apache's far more liberal
license, a result of the attitude that those using free software may
indeed profit by its inclusion. GPL is not just free; it's
anti-commerce and limits the advantage of free software, requiring many
to procure an alternative anyhow; in my case, I'd have to buy something
like that offered by StockIcons (http://www.stockicons.com/), which is
what I'm trying to avoid, not on cost but on principle.
So, since this idea doesn't belong in Apache, I'll have to create yet
another free artwork project, but one with an Apache/LGPL-style license.
Now, to just come up with such a license that can apply to graphics,
since most licenses are code-centric
(http://www.opensource.org/licenses/). Though both graphics and code
are software resources, perhaps I should broaden my horizons to consider
the Creative Commons (http://creativecommons.org/). Any advice here
from a licensing expert?
JayZ
Gnome Desktop Themes:
http://www.gnome.org/softwaremap/projects/gnome-themes/
KDE Icons:
http://webcvs.kde.org/cgi-bin/cvsweb.cgi/art-devel/icons/default/
Fedora Artwork:
http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/artwork/
-----Original Message-----
From: Leo Simons [mailto:leosimons@apache.org]
Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2003 2:08 AM
To: general@incubator.apache.org
Subject: Re: Apache Gallery Project
Jay Zylstra wrote:
>I'll interpret the lack of response to mean this idea doesn't fit
>Apache. Okay. But since the need remains for a free gallery of common
>Web app icons (document, search, print, etc.), does anyone have a
>suggestion of where such a project would fit, or is anyone aware of an
>existing one?
>
You could take a look at the KDE, Gnome, or Fedora Core art projects.
I'm sure there's more gallery-style projects out there in the desktop
linux
world.
cheers!
- Leo
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Re: Apache Gallery Project
Posted by Leo Simons <le...@apache.org>.
Jay Zylstra wrote:
>I'll interpret the lack of response to mean this idea doesn't fit
>Apache. Okay. But since the need remains for a free gallery of common
>Web app icons (document, search, print, etc.), does anyone have a
>suggestion of where such a project would fit, or is anyone aware of an
>existing one?
>
You could take a look at the KDE, Gnome, or Fedora Core art projects. I'm
sure there's more gallery-style projects out there in the desktop linux
world.
cheers!
- Leo
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RE: Apache Gallery Project
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
> But since the need remains for a free gallery of common
> Web app icons (document, search, print, etc.), does anyone
> have a suggestion of where such a project would fit, or is
> anyone aware of an existing one?
The only place at Apache where I believe that this would make sense is
Apache Commons. You might post to general@commons.apache.org, and see the
level of interest. If not, you could try codehaus. Contact Bob
(bob@werken.com).
--- Noel
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RE: Apache Gallery Project
Posted by Jay Zylstra <ja...@zylstra.us>.
I'll interpret the lack of response to mean this idea doesn't fit
Apache. Okay. But since the need remains for a free gallery of common
Web app icons (document, search, print, etc.), does anyone have a
suggestion of where such a project would fit, or is anyone aware of an
existing one?
JayZ
-----Original Message-----
From: Jay Zylstra [mailto:jay@zylstra.us]
Sent: Saturday, November 22, 2003 11:58 PM
To: general@incubator.apache.org
Subject: RE: Apache Gallery Project
I didn't mean that the gallery would be under LGPL specifically, but
something akin to it. As I understand, there are really three types of
licensing for intellectual property:
1) Owner restricts access to the property, and charges to use it
(Microsoft,
SCO, etc.)
2) Owner allows others to use and enhance the property, but must
release
enhancements likewise (GPL)
3) Owner allows others to use and enhance the property, and
enhancements can
be kept (LGPL, Apache)
I meant that I favor the latter option, since many can use and
contribute to a shared library, while leveraging it in products to make
a living by charging for it. As a user of that library, it is then in
my interest to contribute to its maintenance and enhancement because
others will then support and build upon those enhancements, and we all
win. I agree that the ASL 1.1 seems too software-specific for an image
gallery, considering its explicit reference to source and binary code.
The best approach would seem to be the creation of a new Apache Media
License for images, documentation, and other non-code property.
So, now that the LGPL issue is clarified, would something like this make
sense as an Apache project? Since Apache is all about providing the
common tools and technologies necessary to build Web apps (and other
apps as well), I think it fits. If not, where would such an effort
belong? I'm against just starting another lone project on SourceForge,
because it would just get lost in the crowd.
JayZ
-----Original Message-----
From: Henri Yandell [mailto:bayard@generationjava.com]
Sent: Friday, November 21, 2003 8:57 PM
To: general@incubator.apache.org
Subject: Re: Apache Gallery Project
On Fri, 21 Nov 2003, Jay Zylstra wrote:
> 4) Start an LGPL-like project where many share in the free creation
> and use of the artwork
>
> Artwork project (http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/artwork), the
> Apache Gallery project would be licensed under Apache's more liberal
> LGPL-like
You need to research the licencing a bit. The Apache licence is far more
libreral than LGPL. There have been questions on LGPL's validity for
something like Java, it's validity for something like images would seem
non existent.
Possibly you might want to consider the various documentation licences.
They may be a better fit than the source code licences like the ASF
licence.
[OT: It does raise interesting questions over the licencing of Apache
documentation and images]
> license, which wouldn't force me to open-source my work, and thus
> destroy my livelihood. Once incubated, I'm not sure if it would best
> belong under Commons or Jakarta. Wherever it would land, it would
Definitely not Jakarta. It's nothing to do with Java. Equally, it's
pushing it as to whether it's to do with Commons as it's not something
that is coming from the Apache commiting community [ie) another Apache
project].
Whether artwork is something that fits in the Apache realm, I'll leave
for others to argue over. I see no blatant reason why it could not.
Hen
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RE: Apache Gallery Project
Posted by Jay Zylstra <ja...@zylstra.us>.
I didn't mean that the gallery would be under LGPL specifically, but
something akin to it. As I understand, there are really three types of
licensing for intellectual property:
1) Owner restricts access to the property, and charges to use it
(Microsoft,
SCO, etc.)
2) Owner allows others to use and enhance the property, but must
release
enhancements likewise (GPL)
3) Owner allows others to use and enhance the property, and
enhancements can
be kept (LGPL, Apache)
I meant that I favor the latter option, since many can use and
contribute to a shared library, while leveraging it in products to make
a living by charging for it. As a user of that library, it is then in
my interest to contribute to its maintenance and enhancement because
others will then support and build upon those enhancements, and we all
win. I agree that the ASL 1.1 seems too software-specific for an image
gallery, considering its explicit reference to source and binary code.
The best approach would seem to be the creation of a new Apache Media
License for images, documentation, and other non-code property.
So, now that the LGPL issue is clarified, would something like this make
sense as an Apache project? Since Apache is all about providing the
common tools and technologies necessary to build Web apps (and other
apps as well), I think it fits. If not, where would such an effort
belong? I'm against just starting another lone project on SourceForge,
because it would just get lost in the crowd.
JayZ
-----Original Message-----
From: Henri Yandell [mailto:bayard@generationjava.com]
Sent: Friday, November 21, 2003 8:57 PM
To: general@incubator.apache.org
Subject: Re: Apache Gallery Project
On Fri, 21 Nov 2003, Jay Zylstra wrote:
> 4) Start an LGPL-like project where many share in the free creation
> and use of the artwork
>
> Artwork project (http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/artwork), the
> Apache Gallery project would be licensed under Apache's more liberal
> LGPL-like
You need to research the licencing a bit. The Apache licence is far more
libreral than LGPL. There have been questions on LGPL's validity for
something like Java, it's validity for something like images would seem
non existent.
Possibly you might want to consider the various documentation licences.
They may be a better fit than the source code licences like the ASF
licence.
[OT: It does raise interesting questions over the licencing of Apache
documentation and images]
> license, which wouldn't force me to open-source my work, and thus
> destroy my livelihood. Once incubated, I'm not sure if it would best
> belong under Commons or Jakarta. Wherever it would land, it would
Definitely not Jakarta. It's nothing to do with Java. Equally, it's
pushing it as to whether it's to do with Commons as it's not something
that is coming from the Apache commiting community [ie) another Apache
project].
Whether artwork is something that fits in the Apache realm, I'll leave
for others to argue over. I see no blatant reason why it could not.
Hen
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Re: Apache Gallery Project
Posted by Henri Yandell <ba...@generationjava.com>.
On Fri, 21 Nov 2003, Jay Zylstra wrote:
> 4) Start an LGPL-like project where many share in the free creation
> and use of the artwork
>
> Artwork project (http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/artwork), the Apache
> Gallery project would be licensed under Apache's more liberal LGPL-like
You need to research the licencing a bit. The Apache licence is far more
libreral than LGPL. There have been questions on LGPL's validity for
something like Java, it's validity for something like images would seem
non existent.
Possibly you might want to consider the various documentation licences.
They may be a better fit than the source code licences like the ASF
licence.
[OT: It does raise interesting questions over the licencing of Apache
documentation and images]
> license, which wouldn't force me to open-source my work, and thus
> destroy my livelihood. Once incubated, I'm not sure if it would best
> belong under Commons or Jakarta. Wherever it would land, it would
Definitely not Jakarta. It's nothing to do with Java. Equally, it's
pushing it as to whether it's to do with Commons as it's not something
that is coming from the Apache commiting community [ie) another Apache
project].
Whether artwork is something that fits in the Apache realm, I'll leave for
others to argue over. I see no blatant reason why it could not.
Hen
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