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Posted to users@tomcat.apache.org by David kerber <dc...@verizon.net> on 2011/08/24 22:39:37 UTC
TC on Windows Server Core
Will TC run on a Windows Server Core installation? For those of you not
familiar with that term, it's a windows server installation with no GUI,
and minimal other pieces. The idea is a reduced disk, memory and cpu
footprint (rather Unix/Linux like).
D
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RE: TC on Windows Server Core
Posted by "Caldarale, Charles R" <Ch...@unisys.com>.
> From: Christopher Schultz [mailto:chris@christopherschultz.net]
> Subject: Re: TC on Windows Server Core
> unless the JVM does something silly like trying to initialize
> the graphics subsystem even when there isn't one available.
Have to differentiate between the JVM graphics subsystem and that of the platform. The JVM graphics subsystem is *always* available, even on a headless system. Whether or not you can display the results of JVM graphics processing is determined by the availability of a GUI display mechanism on the box.
I would definitely set -Djava.awt.headless=true for this environment to insure there's no attempt at GUI usage.
- Chuck
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Re: TC on Windows Server Core
Posted by Christopher Schultz <ch...@christopherschultz.net>.
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David,
On 8/24/2011 4:39 PM, David kerber wrote:
> Will TC run on a Windows Server Core installation? For those of
> you not familiar with that term, it's a windows server installation
> with no GUI, and minimal other pieces. The idea is a reduced disk,
> memory and cpu footprint (rather Unix/Linux like).
I can't imagine why it wouldn't, unless the JVM does something silly
like trying to initialize the graphics subsystem even when there isn't
one available.
There doesn't seem to be a reason to me why Tomcat itself would
present a problem.
- -chris
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RE: TC on Windows Server Core
Posted by Jeffrey Janner <Je...@PolyDyne.com>.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: André Warnier [mailto:aw@ice-sa.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2011 4:02 PM
> To: Tomcat Users List
> Subject: Re: TC on Windows Server Core
>
> David kerber wrote:
> > Will TC run on a Windows Server Core installation? For those of you
> not
> > familiar with that term, it's a windows server installation with no
> GUI,
> > and minimal other pieces. The idea is a reduced disk, memory and cpu
> > footprint (rather Unix/Linux like).
> >
> One might be forgiven if one were to wonder why one would then not use
> a perfectly
> serviceable minimal Linux base then, no ?
> Once you take away the GUI, what is left that is so compelling about
> Windows Server ?
>
> And just by curiosity, what would be this resulting footprint then, as
> compared to a
> normal Windows Server ? (a link to some unbiased info would satisfy my
> curiosity too; what
> I could find about it on MSDN is not very explicit).
I couldn't say exactly what the difference would be, but I would think there'd be a significant reduction in disk requirements, and certainly in memory used. You don't have any of that GUI software even on the disk to try to run it, only the binaries required for the roles you define for the server. Might have some issues installing 3rd party software -- have to do everything in silent mode with setup scripts.
As far as saving CPU cycles, how many does it really use keeping a login prompt up on the screen 24/7?
Downside from a tomcat perspective that I can see, you miss out on the wonderful configuration GUI from the Commons Daemon guys. I've really grown to like that tool on my Windows platforms.
Overall, I can't see any reason Tomcat wouldn't run on it, but it might be extra work getting it installed and set up. But probably not much more than on Linux/Unix.
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Re: TC on Windows Server Core
Posted by Stefan Mayr <st...@mayr-stefan.de>.
Am 25.08.2011 22:55, schrieb Stefan Mayr:
> ...
> Back to your question. I recommend to read
> http://blogs.technet.com/b/jorke/archive/2008/09/17/cat-power-tomcat-on-server-2008-core-with-iis7.aspx
> . It is a bit dated but lists an ugly pitfall: MSVCR71.dll is required
> but not included. (don't know if this still applies)
I've found the explaination for this behaviour in Oracles bug database:
http://bugs.sun.com/bugdatabase/view_bug.do?bug_id=6509291
It is marked as "won't fix". So you still need to copy the dll
Stefan
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RE: TC on Windows Server Core
Posted by Jeffrey Janner <Je...@PolyDyne.com>.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Stefan Mayr [mailto:stefan@mayr-stefan.de]
> Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2011 3:55 PM
> To: users@tomcat.apache.org
> Subject: Re: TC on Windows Server Core
>
> Am 24.08.2011 23:01, schrieb André Warnier:
> > David kerber wrote:
> >> Will TC run on a Windows Server Core installation? For those of you
> >> not familiar with that term, it's a windows server installation with
> >> no GUI, and minimal other pieces. The idea is a reduced disk, memory
> >> and cpu footprint (rather Unix/Linux like).
> >>
> > One might be forgiven if one were to wonder why one would then not
> use a
> > perfectly serviceable minimal Linux base then, no ?
> > Once you take away the GUI, what is left that is so compelling about
> > Windows Server ?
>
> I would say the very same reasons apply
> - reduced ressource utilization
> - less vulnerable
> - best tool for the job (if windows is your everyday OS)
>
> Not your favourite OS? s/windows/os_your_favorite_os/g. If you can
> afford it there is an unlimited freedom of choice - but I guess this is
> not the right list for os flame wars.
>
> Back to your question. I recommend to read
> http://blogs.technet.com/b/jorke/archive/2008/09/17/cat-power-tomcat-
> on-server-2008-core-with-iis7.aspx
> . It is a bit dated but lists an ugly pitfall: MSVCR71.dll is required
> but not included. (don't know if this still applies)
I like how he starts off the article saying he wants to set up a minimal footprint web server and then the first thing he does is install IIS on the thing. He could have set up Tomcat standalone and had a much smaller footprint.
On the + side, it did give him a chance how to set up the JK in that environment.
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Re: TC on Windows Server Core
Posted by Christopher Schultz <ch...@christopherschultz.net>.
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Hash: SHA1
André,
On 8/25/2011 6:02 PM, André Warnier wrote:
> Just in case, my question was not purely academical, and not trying
> to start a flame.
Belgians don't start flame wars, do they?
> We build small systems for specialised applications, running on
> disk-less, fan-less boxes similar to the one here :
> http://www.hacom.net/catalog/legacy-products/lex-neo (don't know
> the supplier, but that's the box). These things are economical,
> ecological (low-power, low-noise), very reliable (no moving parts),
> boot and do everything from an SSD device etc.. (*)
Disk-less box boots from SSD? Maybe you meant "no spinning disk"?
> But they have a limited amount of RAM. So far, we use a basic Linux
> install, on top of which we run whatever else we need.
Just curious: which distro do you use? Something like DSL or just
Debian/RedHat/whatever with most packages not installed?
> I think memory is really relevant when one talks about Java (and
> Tomcat).
Yup. Depending on the application, you can get away with a
(relatively) modest heap size. We operated in production with a "mere"
64MiB heap for years before our user base grew to the point where we
were suffering OOMEs. (Actually, in our last release, we significantly
decreased the amount of memory ever required by a single user by
changing the way we page-through db search results and our memory
usage curves are much gentler than they used to be).
> (*) the only problem is : they are small, noiseless, they do not
> fit in a standard rack, they have no blinking lights etc.. so
> people tend to set them up on a windowsill and forget about what
> they do.
Aah... "magic box that you shouldn't touch". I've seen those, before.
Usually not on window sills, but the point is the same.
- -chris
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Re: TC on Windows Server Core
Posted by André Warnier <aw...@ice-sa.com>.
Stefan Mayr wrote:
> Am 24.08.2011 23:01, schrieb André Warnier:
>> David kerber wrote:
>>> Will TC run on a Windows Server Core installation? For those of you
>>> not familiar with that term, it's a windows server installation with
>>> no GUI, and minimal other pieces. The idea is a reduced disk, memory
>>> and cpu footprint (rather Unix/Linux like).
>>>
>> One might be forgiven if one were to wonder why one would then not use a
>> perfectly serviceable minimal Linux base then, no ?
>> Once you take away the GUI, what is left that is so compelling about
>> Windows Server ?
>
> I would say the very same reasons apply
> - reduced ressource utilization
> - less vulnerable
> - best tool for the job (if windows is your everyday OS)
>
> Not your favourite OS? s/windows/os_your_favorite_os/g. If you can
> afford it there is an unlimited freedom of choice - but I guess this is
> not the right list for os flame wars.
>
> Back to your question. I recommend to read
> http://blogs.technet.com/b/jorke/archive/2008/09/17/cat-power-tomcat-on-server-2008-core-with-iis7.aspx
> . It is a bit dated but lists an ugly pitfall: MSVCR71.dll is required
> but not included. (don't know if this still applies)
>
> Also many 3rd party libraries use awt for some internal purpose and
> expect a display (even on linux). So use java.awt.headless=true.
>
Just in case, my question was not purely academical, and not trying to start a flame.
We build small systems for specialised applications, running on disk-less, fan-less boxes
similar to the one here : http://www.hacom.net/catalog/legacy-products/lex-neo
(don't know the supplier, but that's the box).
These things are economical, ecological (low-power, low-noise), very reliable (no moving
parts), boot and do everything from an SSD device etc.. (*)
But they have a limited amount of RAM.
So far, we use a basic Linux install, on top of which we run whatever else we need.
But some customers are Windows-centric, so I was wondering if this W2008 Server Core would
be a solution in some cases. My experience with Windows so far tells me that with less
than 2 GB, one can't run Vista or Windows 7 with any level of performance, so that's why I
am curious about what is really meant here by "reduced memory and CPU footprint".
But I don't seem to find any specifics anywhere.
I think memory is really relevant when one talks about Java (and Tomcat).
(*) the only problem is : they are small, noiseless, they do not fit in a standard rack,
they have no blinking lights etc.. so people tend to set them up on a windowsill and
forget about what they do.
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Re: TC on Windows Server Core
Posted by Stefan Mayr <st...@mayr-stefan.de>.
Am 24.08.2011 23:01, schrieb André Warnier:
> David kerber wrote:
>> Will TC run on a Windows Server Core installation? For those of you
>> not familiar with that term, it's a windows server installation with
>> no GUI, and minimal other pieces. The idea is a reduced disk, memory
>> and cpu footprint (rather Unix/Linux like).
>>
> One might be forgiven if one were to wonder why one would then not use a
> perfectly serviceable minimal Linux base then, no ?
> Once you take away the GUI, what is left that is so compelling about
> Windows Server ?
I would say the very same reasons apply
- reduced ressource utilization
- less vulnerable
- best tool for the job (if windows is your everyday OS)
Not your favourite OS? s/windows/os_your_favorite_os/g. If you can
afford it there is an unlimited freedom of choice - but I guess this is
not the right list for os flame wars.
Back to your question. I recommend to read
http://blogs.technet.com/b/jorke/archive/2008/09/17/cat-power-tomcat-on-server-2008-core-with-iis7.aspx
. It is a bit dated but lists an ugly pitfall: MSVCR71.dll is required
but not included. (don't know if this still applies)
Also many 3rd party libraries use awt for some internal purpose and
expect a display (even on linux). So use java.awt.headless=true.
Stefan
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Re: [OT] TC on Windows Server Core
Posted by Christopher Schultz <ch...@christopherschultz.net>.
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Hash: SHA1
André,
On 8/24/2011 5:01 PM, André Warnier wrote:
> David kerber wrote:
>> Will TC run on a Windows Server Core installation? For those of
>> you not familiar with that term, it's a windows server
>> installation with no GUI, and minimal other pieces. The idea is
>> a reduced disk, memory and cpu footprint (rather Unix/Linux
>> like).
>>
> One might be forgiven if one were to wonder why one would then not
> use a perfectly serviceable minimal Linux base then, no ? Once you
> take away the GUI, what is left that is so compelling about Windows
> Server ?
Why, the Registry, of course. Oh, and the rich set of command-line tools.
> And just by curiosity, what would be this resulting footprint then,
> as compared to a normal Windows Server ? (a link to some unbiased
> info would satisfy my curiosity too; what I could find about it on
> MSDN is not very explicit).
If it's supposed to be low on memory, perhaps a JVM isn't a very good
idea either :)
- -chris
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Re: TC on Windows Server Core
Posted by David Kerber <dc...@verizon.net>.
On 8/24/2011 5:01 PM, André Warnier wrote:
> David kerber wrote:
>> Will TC run on a Windows Server Core installation? For those of you
>> not familiar with that term, it's a windows server installation with
>> no GUI, and minimal other pieces. The idea is a reduced disk, memory
>> and cpu footprint (rather Unix/Linux like).
>>
> One might be forgiven if one were to wonder why one would then not use
> a perfectly serviceable minimal Linux base then, no ?
> Once you take away the GUI, what is left that is so compelling about
> Windows Server ?
The biggest advantage I can see would be that the scripting language
would be what I already know and am comfortable with. Also, it would be
easier to integrate with our domain authentication.
D
>
> And just by curiosity, what would be this resulting footprint then, as
> compared to a normal Windows Server ? (a link to some unbiased info
> would satisfy my curiosity too; what I could find about it on MSDN is
> not very explicit).
>
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Re: TC on Windows Server Core
Posted by André Warnier <aw...@ice-sa.com>.
David kerber wrote:
> Will TC run on a Windows Server Core installation? For those of you not
> familiar with that term, it's a windows server installation with no GUI,
> and minimal other pieces. The idea is a reduced disk, memory and cpu
> footprint (rather Unix/Linux like).
>
One might be forgiven if one were to wonder why one would then not use a perfectly
serviceable minimal Linux base then, no ?
Once you take away the GUI, what is left that is so compelling about Windows Server ?
And just by curiosity, what would be this resulting footprint then, as compared to a
normal Windows Server ? (a link to some unbiased info would satisfy my curiosity too; what
I could find about it on MSDN is not very explicit).
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