Would like to contribute

[Jochen Wiedmann <jo...@ispsoft.de>]

Hi,

I would like to contribute some code that I have developed and
that allows to use a Tamino database engine with Cocoon. Tamino
is an XML database developed by my employee, the Software AG.

  - A Tamino producer; in other words a producer reading from
    the database
  - A Tamino processor in the style of the SQL processor, that
    allows to execute read and/or write requests like this:

	<!-- Set the Tamino -->
	<inop:init url="http://localhost/tamino/test/mycoll">
	<!-- Insert some documents -->
	<inop:process>
		<doc1>...</doc1>
		<doc2>...</doc2>
	</inop:process>
	<!-- Read something from the database -->
	<inop:xql>
		doc1[name="something" and date > ´2000-05-19´]
	</inop:xql>
  - A Tamino tag library for XSP in the same style, but using
    the prefix "inotl" rather than "inop".

The above stuff does not depend any external libraries other than
Cocoon and Xerces. (I am using org.apache.xml.* for serialization.)

Would that be accepted? If so, what is the preferred method of
contributing my code. I am used to working with CVS, so I could
insert into the repository directly. I could also send patches.


Thanks in advance,

Jochen

Re: Would like to contribute

[Jochen Wiedmann <jo...@ispsoft.de>]

Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:

> In the past, we had the policy not to introduce in the main distribution
> code that depends on commercial packages.
> 
> What do you guys think?

It might help in the decision that

  - this is my private work; although I am working as a Software AG
    employee, there are no rights on the code except my own.
  - again, the code doesn't depend on any other external libraries
    besides Xerces


> Anyway, I'm very interested in the contribution since people might find
> it useful.

Please let me know any decisions.


Thanks,

Jochen

Re: Would like to contribute

["Marcelo F. Ochoa" <mo...@ieee.org>]

Jochen Wiedmann wrote:

> Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
>
> > The problem is that while helpful, this doesn't create a community
> > around those tools and it's likely to generate feedback/questions on the
> > cocoon mail lists without us able to provide direct community support.
> >
> > I don't like this.
>
> I understand that. Funny thing is, I cannot enter my sources into
> the Tamino distribution because our supporters argue in the same
> sense: They don't want to support Cocoon. :-)
>
> I can only offer my email address for questions and that anyone is
> welcome to say "if you have problems with that stuff we don't like,
> contact Jochen Wiedmann and not us". If I get 5 or 10 mails per
> month, that wouldn't make much, compared to that 5 or 10 I get per
> day for my Perl modules.
>
> > Well, this is the plan:
> >
> > 1) we create this "contrib" directory and place those modules there.
> > Active developers will act as proxies for placing those component little
> > distro in there.
> >
> > 2) if/when the contributions take off, people use them and they start
> > having feedback/requests/code/fixes and such to an amount the original
> > author can't stand anymore, we'll think about what to do next. At that
> > point, including in the main distribution is an option, provided that
> > enough people request for it.
> >
> > Now up to you to judge/patch my action plan.
>
> I'll be happy with that.

  No problem for me.

>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Jochen

    Best Regards, Marcelo.

Re: Would like to contribute

[Stefano Mazzocchi <st...@apache.org>]

Jochen Wiedmann wrote:
> 
> Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
> 
> > The problem is that while helpful, this doesn't create a community
> > around those tools and it's likely to generate feedback/questions on the
> > cocoon mail lists without us able to provide direct community support.
> >
> > I don't like this.
> 
> I understand that. Funny thing is, I cannot enter my sources into
> the Tamino distribution because our supporters argue in the same
> sense: They don't want to support Cocoon. :-)

Makes sense :)
 
> I can only offer my email address for questions and that anyone is
> welcome to say "if you have problems with that stuff we don't like,
> contact Jochen Wiedmann and not us". If I get 5 or 10 mails per
> month, that wouldn't make much, compared to that 5 or 10 I get per
> day for my Perl modules.

Well, if you stick around here this won't be necessary, but this should
make it for now.
 
> > Well, this is the plan:
> >
> > 1) we create this "contrib" directory and place those modules there.
> > Active developers will act as proxies for placing those component little
> > distro in there.
> >
> > 2) if/when the contributions take off, people use them and they start
> > having feedback/requests/code/fixes and such to an amount the original
> > author can't stand anymore, we'll think about what to do next. At that
> > point, including in the main distribution is an option, provided that
> > enough people request for it.
> >
> > Now up to you to judge/patch my action plan.
> 
> I'll be happy with that.

Cool. Send me the package to include then.

-- 
Stefano Mazzocchi      One must still have chaos in oneself to be
                          able to give birth to a dancing star.
<st...@apache.org>                             Friedrich Nietzsche
--------------------------------------------------------------------
 Missed us in Orlando? Make it up with ApacheCON Europe in London!
------------------------- http://ApacheCon.Com ---------------------

Re: Would like to contribute

[Jochen Wiedmann <jo...@ispsoft.de>]

Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:

> The problem is that while helpful, this doesn't create a community
> around those tools and it's likely to generate feedback/questions on the
> cocoon mail lists without us able to provide direct community support.
> 
> I don't like this.

I understand that. Funny thing is, I cannot enter my sources into
the Tamino distribution because our supporters argue in the same
sense: They don't want to support Cocoon. :-)

I can only offer my email address for questions and that anyone is
welcome to say "if you have problems with that stuff we don't like,
contact Jochen Wiedmann and not us". If I get 5 or 10 mails per
month, that wouldn't make much, compared to that 5 or 10 I get per
day for my Perl modules.


> Well, this is the plan:
> 
> 1) we create this "contrib" directory and place those modules there.
> Active developers will act as proxies for placing those component little
> distro in there.
> 
> 2) if/when the contributions take off, people use them and they start
> having feedback/requests/code/fixes and such to an amount the original
> author can't stand anymore, we'll think about what to do next. At that
> point, including in the main distribution is an option, provided that
> enough people request for it.
> 
> Now up to you to judge/patch my action plan.

I'll be happy with that.


Thanks,

Jochen

Re: Would like to contribute

[Giacomo Pati <Gi...@pwr.ch>]

Donald Ball wrote:
> 
> On Fri, 25 Aug 2000, Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
> 
> > Well, this is the plan:
> >
> > 1) we create this "contrib" directory and place those modules there.
> > Active developers will act as proxies for placing those component little
> > distro in there.
> >
> > 2) if/when the contributions take off, people use them and they start
> > having feedback/requests/code/fixes and such to an amount the original
> > author can't stand anymore, we'll think about what to do next. At that
> > point, including in the main distribution is an option, provided that
> > enough people request for it.
> 
> nope - i vote for making a xml-cocoon-contrib repository - we can be much
> freer with commit access to it than the main repository.

I like this as well.

Giacomo

-- 
PWR GmbH, Organisation & Entwicklung      Tel:   +41 (0)1 856 2202
Giacomo Pati, CTO/CEO                     Fax:   +41 (0)1 856 2201
Hintereichenstrasse 7                     Mailto:Giacomo.Pati@pwr.ch
CH-8166 Niederweningen                    Web:   http://www.pwr.ch

Re: Would like to contribute

["Pier P. Fumagalli" <pi...@apache.org>]

Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
> 
> "strong" -1: this will have too many "political" implications since each
> commit access requires a new shell account on locus and this is no good.
> 
> But in the future (hopefully soon) this will change and we will
> reconsider things.
> 
> For now #1 is the only viable solution, believe me.

I strongly agree with Stefano on that... Another viable option would be,
also, hosting those "contrib" parts of Cocoon on another CVS server, and
pulling them down for distribs and/or having links from the Cocoon
website.
I can set up those, just let me know your thoughts!

	Pier

Re: Would like to contribute

[Stefano Mazzocchi <st...@apache.org>]

Donald Ball wrote:
> 
> On Fri, 25 Aug 2000, Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
> 
> > > nope - i vote for making a xml-cocoon-contrib repository - we can be much
> > > freer with commit access to it than the main repository.
> >
> > "strong" -1: this will have too many "political" implications since each
> > commit access requires a new shell account on locus and this is no good.
> >
> > But in the future (hopefully soon) this will change and we will
> > reconsider things.
> >
> > For now #1 is the only viable solution, believe me.
> 
> well, okay then. i'm sorry to say it, though, it sure seems like
> sourceforge has a certain advantage in the tools department.

It sure does, my friend, and believe me, there is nothing to be happy
about and this is one of the cause of friction in the ASF board: Brian
Behlendorf has been talking about the creation of the Tigris
infrastructure for a long time... and you know how these things go: you
don't want to work on something that is probably going to be duplicated
by people you respect and know they'll do a good job.... but it's taking
forever and quick fixes to that (see Bugzilla) caused major pain and
slowed down alternative approaches as well.

Moving everything on sourceforge would be bad politically, even with a
specific dedicated container for Apache projects under sourceforge.

At the same time, I think that Tigris will be far better off than
sourceforge as an infrastructure since they are developping better
technology, not just enforcing current groupware practices. (see their
new CVS called "Subversion"... very cool name, BTW)

Brian recently told us that Tigris is "ready to begin the transition of
Apache sites" and this means that we will be able to try a real
tigris-powered Apache site and, news two, that will also have a good JVM
on it (we are thinking about moving from FreeBSD to Linux just because
of lack of strong java support on BSD, believe me: this is a _major_ win
for all us java lovers and for java in general given the status of
BSD-lovers between the ASF members)

We are also discussing (heavily!) on the restructuring of the foundation
(redesign of PMC, flattering of the project structures, etc..) but it's
too early to tell how this is going to evolve.

I'll let you guys informed.

BTW, any comment (even addressed directly to the ASF members list) will
be highly appreciated.

-- 
Stefano Mazzocchi      One must still have chaos in oneself to be
                          able to give birth to a dancing star.
<st...@apache.org>                             Friedrich Nietzsche
--------------------------------------------------------------------
 Missed us in Orlando? Make it up with ApacheCON Europe in London!
------------------------- http://ApacheCon.Com ---------------------

Re: Would like to contribute

[Donald Ball <ba...@webslingerZ.com>]

On Fri, 25 Aug 2000, Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:

> > nope - i vote for making a xml-cocoon-contrib repository - we can be much
> > freer with commit access to it than the main repository.
> 
> "strong" -1: this will have too many "political" implications since each
> commit access requires a new shell account on locus and this is no good.
> 
> But in the future (hopefully soon) this will change and we will
> reconsider things.
> 
> For now #1 is the only viable solution, believe me.

well, okay then. i'm sorry to say it, though, it sure seems like
sourceforge has a certain advantage in the tools department.

- donald

Re: Would like to contribute

[Stefano Mazzocchi <st...@apache.org>]

Donald Ball wrote:
> 
> On Fri, 25 Aug 2000, Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
> 
> > Well, this is the plan:
> >
> > 1) we create this "contrib" directory and place those modules there.
> > Active developers will act as proxies for placing those component little
> > distro in there.
> >
> > 2) if/when the contributions take off, people use them and they start
> > having feedback/requests/code/fixes and such to an amount the original
> > author can't stand anymore, we'll think about what to do next. At that
> > point, including in the main distribution is an option, provided that
> > enough people request for it.
> 
> nope - i vote for making a xml-cocoon-contrib repository - we can be much
> freer with commit access to it than the main repository.

"strong" -1: this will have too many "political" implications since each
commit access requires a new shell account on locus and this is no good.

But in the future (hopefully soon) this will change and we will
reconsider things.

For now #1 is the only viable solution, believe me.

-- 
Stefano Mazzocchi      One must still have chaos in oneself to be
                          able to give birth to a dancing star.
<st...@apache.org>                             Friedrich Nietzsche
--------------------------------------------------------------------
 Missed us in Orlando? Make it up with ApacheCON Europe in London!
------------------------- http://ApacheCon.Com ---------------------

Re: Would like to contribute

[Donald Ball <ba...@webslingerZ.com>]

On Fri, 25 Aug 2000, Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:

> Well, this is the plan:
> 
> 1) we create this "contrib" directory and place those modules there.
> Active developers will act as proxies for placing those component little
> distro in there.
> 
> 2) if/when the contributions take off, people use them and they start
> having feedback/requests/code/fixes and such to an amount the original
> author can't stand anymore, we'll think about what to do next. At that
> point, including in the main distribution is an option, provided that
> enough people request for it.

nope - i vote for making a xml-cocoon-contrib repository - we can be much
freer with commit access to it than the main repository.

- donald

Re: Would like to contribute

[Stefano Mazzocchi <st...@apache.org>]

Jochen Wiedmann wrote:
> 
> Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
> 
> > I would love to be able to provide hosting space for "commercial
> > connectors" in the official site, but integrating them into the distro
> > could be dangerous.
> >
> > Anyway, I'm very interested in the contribution since people might find
> > it useful.
> 
> The subject is still open, isn't it?

Sure, the problem is that I don't know where to put those contributions
:/
 
> Btw, I personally can't see any problems with producers and/or
> processors related to commercial software. Note that the SQL
> and LDAP stuff is closely related to the same things.

Nah, wrong: it's not a problem related "to commercial software", not at
all. It's a problem related to "proprietary API or protocols". Both LDAP
and SQL are non-proprietary standards, in the sense that there are
_several_ products (both commercial and open source) that implement
those protocols.

Here we have something that connects to a specific XML database (which I
don't judge on the technical merits, not at all!) with a specific
interface that is not recognized as a standard.

So while SQLProducer is fine (even if it doesn't work out of the box,
c'mon, that's not an argument), PostgreSQLProducer is not! even if the
software is open, freely available and implements an industrial
standard.

This, again, doesn't rule out the possibility to have such proprietary
connectors (such as Prism, which connects directly to Oracle and
features that only Oracle has, or your own) "somewhere" around the
Cocoon official distribution side.

A possible solution would be to create a subdirectory in 

  xml.apache.org/cocoon/dist/contrib

which I'm _very_ happy to provide. We can do this tomorrow if you want
(and put Prism in there as well, if you care and any other proprietary
modules you guys might have but don't want to include in the main
distribution).

The problem is that while helpful, this doesn't create a community
around those tools and it's likely to generate feedback/questions on the
cocoon mail lists without us able to provide direct community support.

I don't like this.

At the same time, creating a new subproject for every module is simply
too much to ask (believe me, I know what I'm talking about, expecially
these days when the ASF members are having a big discussion about
removing project containers such as xml.apache.org and
jakarta.apache.org and flatten the project stucture).

So I'm stuck.

Well, this is the plan:

1) we create this "contrib" directory and place those modules there.
Active developers will act as proxies for placing those component little
distro in there.

2) if/when the contributions take off, people use them and they start
having feedback/requests/code/fixes and such to an amount the original
author can't stand anymore, we'll think about what to do next. At that
point, including in the main distribution is an option, provided that
enough people request for it.

Now up to you to judge/patch my action plan.

-- 
Stefano Mazzocchi      One must still have chaos in oneself to be
                          able to give birth to a dancing star.
<st...@apache.org>                             Friedrich Nietzsche
--------------------------------------------------------------------
 Missed us in Orlando? Make it up with ApacheCON Europe in London!
------------------------- http://ApacheCon.Com ---------------------

Re: Would like to contribute

[Jochen Wiedmann <jo...@ispsoft.de>]

Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:

> I would love to be able to provide hosting space for "commercial
> connectors" in the official site, but integrating them into the distro
> could be dangerous.
> 
> Anyway, I'm very interested in the contribution since people might find
> it useful.

The subject is still open, isn't it?

Btw, I personally can't see any problems with producers and/or
processors related to commercial software. Note that the SQL
and LDAP stuff is closely related to the same things.


Bye,

Jochen

Re: Would like to contribute

[Ross Burton <ro...@mail.com>]

> i'm interested as well, but i still think that we oughta have a
> cocoon-contrib repository. i'd even argue for moving sql and ldap over
> there.

Wow - my first official vote!

+1 on a contrib directory asap.

I can see a reason for moving ldap and sql to the contrib directory - they
do not work out of the box.  Not sure. +0?

Ross Burton

Re: Would like to contribute

[Kevin Sonney <ke...@webslingerz.com>]

On Mon, 21 Aug 2000, Donald Ball wrote:
> i'm interested as well, but i still think that we oughta have a
> cocoon-contrib repository. i'd even argue for moving sql and ldap over
> there.

+1 on the contrib repository, -1 on moving ldap and sql there. 

-- 
+-------------------------------------------+
| Kevin Sonney        kevin@webslingerZ.com |
| Systems Programmer    www.webslingerZ.com |
+-------------------------------------------+

Re: Would like to contribute

[Donald Ball <ba...@webslingerZ.com>]

On Mon, 14 Aug 2000, Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:

> Jochen Wiedmann wrote:
> > 
> > I would like to contribute some code that I have developed and
> > that allows to use a Tamino database engine with Cocoon. Tamino
> > is an XML database developed by my employee, the Software AG.
> > 
> > Would that be accepted? If so, what is the preferred method of
> > contributing my code. I am used to working with CVS, so I could
> > insert into the repository directly. I could also send patches.
> 
> In the past, we had the policy not to introduce in the main distribution
> code that depends on commercial packages.
> 
> What do you guys think?
> 
> I would love to be able to provide hosting space for "commercial
> connectors" in the official site, but integrating them into the distro
> could be dangerous.
> 
> Anyway, I'm very interested in the contribution since people might find
> it useful.

i'm interested as well, but i still think that we oughta have a
cocoon-contrib repository. i'd even argue for moving sql and ldap over
there.

- donald

Re: Would like to contribute

[Stefano Mazzocchi <st...@apache.org>]

Jochen Wiedmann wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> I would like to contribute some code that I have developed and
> that allows to use a Tamino database engine with Cocoon. Tamino
> is an XML database developed by my employee, the Software AG.
> 
>   - A Tamino producer; in other words a producer reading from
>     the database
>   - A Tamino processor in the style of the SQL processor, that
>     allows to execute read and/or write requests like this:
> 
>         <!-- Set the Tamino -->
>         <inop:init url="http://localhost/tamino/test/mycoll">
>         <!-- Insert some documents -->
>         <inop:process>
>                 <doc1>...</doc1>
>                 <doc2>...</doc2>
>         </inop:process>
>         <!-- Read something from the database -->
>         <inop:xql>
>                 doc1[name="something" and date > ´2000-05-19´]
>         </inop:xql>
>   - A Tamino tag library for XSP in the same style, but using
>     the prefix "inotl" rather than "inop".
> 
> The above stuff does not depend any external libraries other than
> Cocoon and Xerces. (I am using org.apache.xml.* for serialization.)
> 
> Would that be accepted? If so, what is the preferred method of
> contributing my code. I am used to working with CVS, so I could
> insert into the repository directly. I could also send patches.

In the past, we had the policy not to introduce in the main distribution
code that depends on commercial packages.

What do you guys think?

I would love to be able to provide hosting space for "commercial
connectors" in the official site, but integrating them into the distro
could be dangerous.

Anyway, I'm very interested in the contribution since people might find
it useful.

-- 
Stefano Mazzocchi      One must still have chaos in oneself to be
                          able to give birth to a dancing star.
<st...@apache.org>                             Friedrich Nietzsche
--------------------------------------------------------------------
 Missed us in Orlando? Make it up with ApacheCON Europe in London!
------------------------- http://ApacheCon.Com ---------------------