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Posted to users@tomcat.apache.org by Matt Bathje <mp...@ntsource.com> on 2004/06/16 21:50:35 UTC
java server mode vs. client mode
I posted this on the struts list this morning, but it might get better
answers here.
I was reading the stories here:
http://www.sys-con.com/story/?storyid=45250
http://www.kano.net/javabench/
Summary:
Java in server mode is faster than C++ in the benchmarks run. Java in client
mode is much more iffy, sometimes faster, sometimes slower, and sometimes
the same.
So my question becomes - does anybody have any experience running their
Tomcat jvm using the -server option instead of letting it default to client?
Based on what the tester says, the only downside of running the jvm in
server mode is a longer startup time, but the Java code still beat C++ even
with the longer times, so it can't be too bad.
So anybody have any experience/thoughts on this?
Thanks,
Matt Bathje
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Re: java server mode vs. client mode
Posted by Elijah Epifanov <sm...@sulamita.ru>.
At first:
If I'ld write a C++ compiler with Perl, this doesn't mean
that it will generate code slower than Perl scripts:)
Then:
Exhaustive optimization techniques (like loop expansion,
disabling array bounds checking, etc.) really make your
code faster in ANY case, BUT small amount of generated
code may fit your processors cache, some jump may be
converted to short jumps, etc.. So, generally speaking,
more optimized code shall run faster, but it's bigger.
Huge amount of code may even seriously decrease
amount of free RAM, so more swapping will occur.
AND ... if you do really meaninglessthings in your code, then
there's a chance that optimizer will not eliminate
this code, because it cannot generate OPTIMAL code.
This is, mathematically speaking, twice a NP-hard problem.
First when generating code, second when testing it's speed.
I recommed using -server hotspot. Look at name...
S E R V E R. I'm not sure guys from Sun randomly named it
this way :)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Eric VERGNAUD" <er...@jlynx.com>
To: "Tomcat Users List" <to...@jakarta.apache.org>
Sent: Thursday, June 17, 2004 12:12 AM
Subject: Re: java server mode vs. client mode
le 16/06/04 21:50, Matt Bathje à mpb@ntsource.com a écrit :
> I posted this on the struts list this morning, but it might get better
> answers here.
>
> I was reading the stories here:
>
> http://www.sys-con.com/story/?storyid=45250
> http://www.kano.net/javabench/
>
> Summary:
> Java in server mode is faster than C++ in the benchmarks run. Java in
client
> mode is much more iffy, sometimes faster, sometimes slower, and sometimes
> the same.
>
>
> So my question becomes - does anybody have any experience running their
> Tomcat jvm using the -server option instead of letting it default to
client?
>
> Based on what the tester says, the only downside of running the jvm in
> server mode is a longer startup time, but the Java code still beat C++
even
> with the longer times, so it can't be too bad.
>
> So anybody have any experience/thoughts on this?
>
>
> Thanks,
> Matt Bathje
>
Matt,
No one can really believe Java is faster than C or C++, because Java is
itself written in C and C++.
I haven't been through the benchmark code throroughly, but there's
definitely a bias somewhere.
-------------------------------
Eric VERGNAUD - JLynx Software
Cutting-edge technologies and
services for software companies
web: http://www.jlynx.com
-------------------------------
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[OT] Re: java server mode vs. client mode
Posted by Matt Bathje <mp...@ntsource.com>.
Yes, I understand that it may not be completley accurate, but I was less
interested in the Java/C++ comparison than the client/server mode
comparison.
Thanks,
Matt Bathje
----- Original Message -----
From: "Eric VERGNAUD" <er...@jlynx.com>
To: "Tomcat Users List" <to...@jakarta.apache.org>
Sent: Wednesday, June 16, 2004 3:12 PM
Subject: Re: java server mode vs. client mode
> le 16/06/04 21:50, Matt Bathje à mpb@ntsource.com a écrit :
>
> > I posted this on the struts list this morning, but it might get better
> > answers here.
> >
> > I was reading the stories here:
> >
> > http://www.sys-con.com/story/?storyid=45250
> > http://www.kano.net/javabench/
> >
> > Summary:
> > Java in server mode is faster than C++ in the benchmarks run. Java in
client
> > mode is much more iffy, sometimes faster, sometimes slower, and
sometimes
> > the same.
> >
> >
> > So my question becomes - does anybody have any experience running their
> > Tomcat jvm using the -server option instead of letting it default to
client?
> >
> > Based on what the tester says, the only downside of running the jvm in
> > server mode is a longer startup time, but the Java code still beat C++
even
> > with the longer times, so it can't be too bad.
> >
> > So anybody have any experience/thoughts on this?
> >
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Matt Bathje
> >
>
> Matt,
>
> No one can really believe Java is faster than C or C++, because Java is
> itself written in C and C++.
>
> I haven't been through the benchmark code throroughly, but there's
> definitely a bias somewhere.
>
> -------------------------------
> Eric VERGNAUD - JLynx Software
> Cutting-edge technologies and
> services for software companies
> web: http://www.jlynx.com
> -------------------------------
>
>
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> To unsubscribe, e-mail: tomcat-user-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
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>
>
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RE: Can server.xml be reloaded without restart?
Posted by Ivan Jouikov <iv...@comcast.net>.
Ok, I get it now... But is there any way to make it so that you can add new www.domain.com aka virtual hosts without restarting the server?
-----Original Message-----
From: news [mailto:news@sea.gmane.org] On Behalf Of Digby
Sent: Thursday, June 17, 2004 12:52 AM
To: tomcat-user@jakarta.apache.org
Subject: Re: Can server.xml be reloaded without restart?
The context is your application so (context)/META-INF is right beside
your (context)/WEB-INF.
Tomcat will know whch host to use because that's where you deploy it (if
you use the deployer) or you can stick the app in the host's appbase
folder, and it'll work it out. It did with me anyway. Once it's
deployed, have a look in conf\Catalina and you find equivalent
context.xml files in there too.
As Apache acknowledge, they just write software that they give away for
free, and documentation and support are just extras when they get time.
There are a couple of books on Tomcat that go into more detail and
explain how things work. (Again, my experience).
Ivan Jouikov wrote:
> http://jakarta.apache.org/tomcat/tomcat-5.0-doc/deployer-howto.html
>
> And some other google stuff.
>
> What do you mean by {context}/META-INF?
> What the hell is {context} ?
>
> And still, how would it know which <Host> to use?
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: QM [mailto:qm300@brandxdev.net]
> Sent: Wednesday, June 16, 2004 7:56 PM
> To: Tomcat Users List
> Subject: Re: Can server.xml be reloaded without restart?
>
> On Wed, Jun 16, 2004 at 07:04:12PM -0700, Ivan Jouikov wrote:
> : Tomcat HOW-TO does a really bad job of explaining of how context.xml would
> : work... Google didn't yield any useful information as well...
>
> I'm not sure where you're looking -- which howto did you read?
>
>
> : So, as far as I understand, you create a file called context.xml, and place
> : the <Context> tag and all its contents into it (instead of keeping them inside
> : of server.xml)...
>
> Correct.
>
>
> : Now, where does that context.xml go? Into WEB-INF? Tried it, didn't work.
>
> {context}/META-INF
>
> To answer your other question: this file is associated with the webapp
> because of its location in the context dir or WAR file. That's how the
> manager app/Tomcat/etc know what to do with it.
>
> I don't know what's up there now, but this was described on the Tomcat
> site when I made the switch to using context.xml many moons ago. ;)
> In fact, for Tomcat5 use of context.xml is encouraged.
>
> -QM
>
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Re: Can server.xml be reloaded without restart?
Posted by Digby <li...@digby.net>.
The context is your application so (context)/META-INF is right beside
your (context)/WEB-INF.
Tomcat will know whch host to use because that's where you deploy it (if
you use the deployer) or you can stick the app in the host's appbase
folder, and it'll work it out. It did with me anyway. Once it's
deployed, have a look in conf\Catalina and you find equivalent
context.xml files in there too.
As Apache acknowledge, they just write software that they give away for
free, and documentation and support are just extras when they get time.
There are a couple of books on Tomcat that go into more detail and
explain how things work. (Again, my experience).
Ivan Jouikov wrote:
> http://jakarta.apache.org/tomcat/tomcat-5.0-doc/deployer-howto.html
>
> And some other google stuff.
>
> What do you mean by {context}/META-INF?
> What the hell is {context} ?
>
> And still, how would it know which <Host> to use?
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: QM [mailto:qm300@brandxdev.net]
> Sent: Wednesday, June 16, 2004 7:56 PM
> To: Tomcat Users List
> Subject: Re: Can server.xml be reloaded without restart?
>
> On Wed, Jun 16, 2004 at 07:04:12PM -0700, Ivan Jouikov wrote:
> : Tomcat HOW-TO does a really bad job of explaining of how context.xml would
> : work... Google didn't yield any useful information as well...
>
> I'm not sure where you're looking -- which howto did you read?
>
>
> : So, as far as I understand, you create a file called context.xml, and place
> : the <Context> tag and all its contents into it (instead of keeping them inside
> : of server.xml)...
>
> Correct.
>
>
> : Now, where does that context.xml go? Into WEB-INF? Tried it, didn't work.
>
> {context}/META-INF
>
> To answer your other question: this file is associated with the webapp
> because of its location in the context dir or WAR file. That's how the
> manager app/Tomcat/etc know what to do with it.
>
> I don't know what's up there now, but this was described on the Tomcat
> site when I made the switch to using context.xml many moons ago. ;)
> In fact, for Tomcat5 use of context.xml is encouraged.
>
> -QM
>
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RE: Can server.xml be reloaded without restart?
Posted by Ivan Jouikov <iv...@comcast.net>.
http://jakarta.apache.org/tomcat/tomcat-5.0-doc/deployer-howto.html
And some other google stuff.
What do you mean by {context}/META-INF?
What the hell is {context} ?
And still, how would it know which <Host> to use?
-----Original Message-----
From: QM [mailto:qm300@brandxdev.net]
Sent: Wednesday, June 16, 2004 7:56 PM
To: Tomcat Users List
Subject: Re: Can server.xml be reloaded without restart?
On Wed, Jun 16, 2004 at 07:04:12PM -0700, Ivan Jouikov wrote:
: Tomcat HOW-TO does a really bad job of explaining of how context.xml would
: work... Google didn't yield any useful information as well...
I'm not sure where you're looking -- which howto did you read?
: So, as far as I understand, you create a file called context.xml, and place
: the <Context> tag and all its contents into it (instead of keeping them inside
: of server.xml)...
Correct.
: Now, where does that context.xml go? Into WEB-INF? Tried it, didn't work.
{context}/META-INF
To answer your other question: this file is associated with the webapp
because of its location in the context dir or WAR file. That's how the
manager app/Tomcat/etc know what to do with it.
I don't know what's up there now, but this was described on the Tomcat
site when I made the switch to using context.xml many moons ago. ;)
In fact, for Tomcat5 use of context.xml is encouraged.
-QM
--
software -- http://www.brandxdev.net
tech news -- http://www.RoarNetworX.com
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Re: Can server.xml be reloaded without restart?
Posted by QM <qm...@brandxdev.net>.
On Wed, Jun 16, 2004 at 07:04:12PM -0700, Ivan Jouikov wrote:
: Tomcat HOW-TO does a really bad job of explaining of how context.xml would
: work... Google didn't yield any useful information as well...
I'm not sure where you're looking -- which howto did you read?
: So, as far as I understand, you create a file called context.xml, and place
: the <Context> tag and all its contents into it (instead of keeping them inside
: of server.xml)...
Correct.
: Now, where does that context.xml go? Into WEB-INF? Tried it, didn't work.
{context}/META-INF
To answer your other question: this file is associated with the webapp
because of its location in the context dir or WAR file. That's how the
manager app/Tomcat/etc know what to do with it.
I don't know what's up there now, but this was described on the Tomcat
site when I made the switch to using context.xml many moons ago. ;)
In fact, for Tomcat5 use of context.xml is encouraged.
-QM
--
software -- http://www.brandxdev.net
tech news -- http://www.RoarNetworX.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------
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RE: Can server.xml be reloaded without restart?
Posted by Ivan Jouikov <iv...@comcast.net>.
Tomcat HOW-TO does a really bad job of explaining of how context.xml would work... Google didn't yield any useful information as well...
So, as far as I understand, you create a file called context.xml, and place the <Context> tag and all its contents into it (instead of keeping them inside of server.xml)...
Now, where does that context.xml go? Into WEB-INF? Tried it, didn't work.
Also, how would it know which <Host> to belong to?
And do I use the manager application to deploy those dynamically? In manager application, you can deploy only one .war file, so I guess it goes in it somehow?
-----Original Message-----
From: QM [mailto:qm300@brandxdev.net]
Sent: Wednesday, June 16, 2004 3:04 PM
To: Tomcat Users List
Subject: Re: Can server.xml be reloaded without restart?
On Wed, Jun 16, 2004 at 02:27:33PM -0700, Ivan Jouikov wrote:
: If I am hosting a large number of applications on my server, and I add a new
: application every couple of hours and every application requires having its
: own DB pool (aka <Resource> entry in server.xml), how can I make it so that my
: server.xml gets reloaded automatically?
You can keep the <Resource> tags with the webapp. See the Tomcat docs
for "context.xml."
The short version is, everything you put under a <Context> tag, you can
put in a separate, per-webapp file. When that webapp is updated, the
rest of the container is undisturbed.
Icing on the cake: app-specific settings stay with the app, making it
more portable within your infrastructure.
-QM
--
software -- http://www.brandxdev.net
tech news -- http://www.RoarNetworX.com
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Re: Can server.xml be reloaded without restart?
Posted by QM <qm...@brandxdev.net>.
On Wed, Jun 16, 2004 at 02:27:33PM -0700, Ivan Jouikov wrote:
: If I am hosting a large number of applications on my server, and I add a new
: application every couple of hours and every application requires having its
: own DB pool (aka <Resource> entry in server.xml), how can I make it so that my
: server.xml gets reloaded automatically?
You can keep the <Resource> tags with the webapp. See the Tomcat docs
for "context.xml."
The short version is, everything you put under a <Context> tag, you can
put in a separate, per-webapp file. When that webapp is updated, the
rest of the container is undisturbed.
Icing on the cake: app-specific settings stay with the app, making it
more portable within your infrastructure.
-QM
--
software -- http://www.brandxdev.net
tech news -- http://www.RoarNetworX.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------
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Can server.xml be reloaded without restart?
Posted by Ivan Jouikov <iv...@comcast.net>.
If I am hosting a large number of applications on my server, and I add a new application every couple of hours and every application requires having its own DB pool (aka <Resource> entry in server.xml), how can I make it so that my server.xml gets reloaded automatically?
Because if I restart it, I'll loose all the current sessions and have downtime for a few seconds, and that's no good...
Any advice?
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Re: java server mode vs. client mode
Posted by Peter Lin <tc...@yahoo.com>.
ahh gotta love benchmarks. the only valid benchmark is your own application, which you've tuned.
all other cases are seriously error proned or not applicable to real applications.
peter
Eric VERGNAUD <er...@jlynx.com> wrote:
le 16/06/04 21:50, Matt Bathje � mpb@ntsource.com a �crit :
> I posted this on the struts list this morning, but it might get better
> answers here.
>
> I was reading the stories here:
>
> http://www.sys-con.com/story/?storyid=45250
> http://www.kano.net/javabench/
>
> Summary:
> Java in server mode is faster than C++ in the benchmarks run. Java in client
> mode is much more iffy, sometimes faster, sometimes slower, and sometimes
> the same.
>
>
> So my question becomes - does anybody have any experience running their
> Tomcat jvm using the -server option instead of letting it default to client?
>
> Based on what the tester says, the only downside of running the jvm in
> server mode is a longer startup time, but the Java code still beat C++ even
> with the longer times, so it can't be too bad.
>
> So anybody have any experience/thoughts on this?
>
>
> Thanks,
> Matt Bathje
>
Matt,
No one can really believe Java is faster than C or C++, because Java is
itself written in C and C++.
I haven't been through the benchmark code throroughly, but there's
definitely a bias somewhere.
-------------------------------
Eric VERGNAUD - JLynx Software
Cutting-edge technologies and
services for software companies
web: http://www.jlynx.com
-------------------------------
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Re: java server mode vs. client mode
Posted by Woodchuck <wo...@yahoo.com>.
> No one can really believe Java is faster than C or
> C++, because Java is
> itself written in C and C++.
isn't there a hardware JVM implementation? maybe
running on that, Java > C++
:D
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Re: java server mode vs. client mode
Posted by Eric VERGNAUD <er...@jlynx.com>.
le 16/06/04 21:50, Matt Bathje à mpb@ntsource.com a écrit :
> I posted this on the struts list this morning, but it might get better
> answers here.
>
> I was reading the stories here:
>
> http://www.sys-con.com/story/?storyid=45250
> http://www.kano.net/javabench/
>
> Summary:
> Java in server mode is faster than C++ in the benchmarks run. Java in client
> mode is much more iffy, sometimes faster, sometimes slower, and sometimes
> the same.
>
>
> So my question becomes - does anybody have any experience running their
> Tomcat jvm using the -server option instead of letting it default to client?
>
> Based on what the tester says, the only downside of running the jvm in
> server mode is a longer startup time, but the Java code still beat C++ even
> with the longer times, so it can't be too bad.
>
> So anybody have any experience/thoughts on this?
>
>
> Thanks,
> Matt Bathje
>
Matt,
No one can really believe Java is faster than C or C++, because Java is
itself written in C and C++.
I haven't been through the benchmark code throroughly, but there's
definitely a bias somewhere.
-------------------------------
Eric VERGNAUD - JLynx Software
Cutting-edge technologies and
services for software companies
web: http://www.jlynx.com
-------------------------------
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Re: java server mode vs. client mode
Posted by Matt Bathje <mp...@ntsource.com>.
Thanks for the pointer to the article, don't know why I didn't just think to
look their in the first place.
I was sure it was something that has been mentioned on the list before, but
I wasn't able to find a way to search for it that yielded good results.
Thanks again for the info!
Matt Bathje
----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Lin" <tc...@yahoo.com>
To: "Tomcat Users List" <to...@jakarta.apache.org>
Sent: Wednesday, June 16, 2004 2:54 PM
Subject: Re: java server mode vs. client mode
>
> this has been mentioned countless times on the mailing list and I have
tons of numbers comparing client to server in my article on the resources
page of tomcat.
>
> if you want hard numbers, I would suggest look at the article, or run some
stress tests on your own apps. a quick test will give you hard numbers to
prove/disprove the benefit/non-benefit of running in -server mode.
>
> i hope that helps
>
> peter
>
>
>
> Matt Bathje <mp...@ntsource.com> wrote:
> I posted this on the struts list this morning, but it might get better
> answers here.
>
> I was reading the stories here:
>
> http://www.sys-con.com/story/?storyid=45250
> http://www.kano.net/javabench/
>
> Summary:
> Java in server mode is faster than C++ in the benchmarks run. Java in
client
> mode is much more iffy, sometimes faster, sometimes slower, and sometimes
> the same.
>
>
> So my question becomes - does anybody have any experience running their
> Tomcat jvm using the -server option instead of letting it default to
client?
>
> Based on what the tester says, the only downside of running the jvm in
> server mode is a longer startup time, but the Java code still beat C++
even
> with the longer times, so it can't be too bad.
>
> So anybody have any experience/thoughts on this?
>
>
> Thanks,
> Matt Bathje
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: tomcat-user-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: tomcat-user-help@jakarta.apache.org
>
>
>
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Re: java server mode vs. client mode
Posted by Peter Lin <tc...@yahoo.com>.
this has been mentioned countless times on the mailing list and I have tons of numbers comparing client to server in my article on the resources page of tomcat.
if you want hard numbers, I would suggest look at the article, or run some stress tests on your own apps. a quick test will give you hard numbers to prove/disprove the benefit/non-benefit of running in -server mode.
i hope that helps
peter
Matt Bathje <mp...@ntsource.com> wrote:
I posted this on the struts list this morning, but it might get better
answers here.
I was reading the stories here:
http://www.sys-con.com/story/?storyid=45250
http://www.kano.net/javabench/
Summary:
Java in server mode is faster than C++ in the benchmarks run. Java in client
mode is much more iffy, sometimes faster, sometimes slower, and sometimes
the same.
So my question becomes - does anybody have any experience running their
Tomcat jvm using the -server option instead of letting it default to client?
Based on what the tester says, the only downside of running the jvm in
server mode is a longer startup time, but the Java code still beat C++ even
with the longer times, so it can't be too bad.
So anybody have any experience/thoughts on this?
Thanks,
Matt Bathje
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