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Posted to users@cocoon.apache.org by kasper <bj...@powertech.no> on 2000/04/03 16:55:14 UTC
SV: Shameless Developer Recruiting & new aspects
Hi,
We have experienced a type of similar response to a serious request to the usergroup where we are offering a project to be placed in the market based on the technology. As a serious user of this maillist we made a request to Stefano Mazzocchi at first, that advised us to post the request to the user list. Unfortunately we have only received one answer to our posting and that was in terms of getting out of this list with that type of requests, blah blah.
This attitude could be changed into a more constructive approach with a more constructive result for both entrepreneurs and developers. I can suggest that we make a new mail list or a meetingplace where entrepreneurs, capital and developers can meet to change cocoon tech. into profitable projects.
Best regards
HyperKreativ, CBT a.s
Kasper Ilaug
-----Opprinnelig melding-----
Fra: Stefano Mazzocchi <st...@apache.org>
Til: cocoon-dev@xml.apache.org <co...@xml.apache.org>; Cocoon Users <co...@xml.apache.org>
Dato: 3. april 2000 14:36
Emne: Re: Shameless Developer Recruiting
>John Milan wrote:
>>
>> Well, I did ask Stefano about it first...
>
>yes, I thought this could help us both as a community and as
>individuals... if you have any troubles with these kinds of mail,
>please, let me know. Thank you.
>
>> I'm looking for people who want to develop and use Cocoon in a
>> large-scale (and rapidly getting larger-scale) production environment.
>> We fully expect to be servicing several hundred of the Fortune 1000
>> companies in the coming year. The problems we are facing are exactly the
>> solutions Cocoon provides.
>>
>> I believe the following is true:
>>
>> "The Cocoon project aims to change the way web information is created,
>> rendered and served. This new paradigm is based on fact that document
>> content, style and logic are often created by different individuals or
>> working groups. Cocoon aims to a complete separation of the three
>> layers, allowing the three layers to be independently designed, created
>> and managed, reducing management overhead, increasing work reuse and
>> reducing time to market."
>>
>> and now I want to prove it. I want to make my company the high-profile
>> proving ground. My desire is to build a reference site for the Cocoon
>> publishing framework, much like Amazon has become a reference site for
>> the Apache Web Server. We've just secured $30 million in financing from
>> Benchmark and Goldman Sachs-- we will be high profile.
>
>I've assisted at amazing things: companies with such high profiles
>(you're not the first one, John :) come to me asking if "cocoon is ready
>to prove its ideas".
>
>Well, you know much I evangelize and all that, but you also know that
>Cocoon 1.x could not possibly stand the kind of load that such
>very-high-profile uses require...
>
>but I have to tell you: such companies don't have problems paying 125K$
>for a Vignette StoryServer licence.... and don't have problems running
>clusters of huge Sun machines to run the Oracle Application Server when
>they could spend one tenth using a bunch of PCs + FreeBSD + Apache +
>JServ.
>
>But even if we try hard, even if we can technically prove the excellence
>of our software and solutions compared to commercial ones (Vignette is
>great, but if you think that Cocoon 1.x is a memory hog, well, you
>haven't see alternatives :) John is absolutely right:
>
> we need a killer story!
>
>Apache's killer story are netcraft surveys.
>JServ's killer story is www.starwars.com and JavaWorld Award.
>
>What is Cocoon's killer story? www.eurofootball.com is a great starting
>point (not completely cocoon-based, for what I can tell, but this will
>hopefully change in the future), but think about something like "CNN.com
>powered by Cocoon".
>
>Companies are interested in joining and helping out... and providing a
>killer story is a _great_ resource to this project because allows you
>geeks to go to the other technical people and make their jaws drop...
>but also go to your boss and make his eyes shine with dollars signs :)
>
>I will soon make a list of "Proud to be powered by Cocoon" web sites and
>I'd love to have all your links up there. (contact me directly for
>that).
>
>Thanks and listen to John, he's a great guy!
>
>--
>Stefano Mazzocchi One must still have chaos in oneself to be
> able to give birth to a dancing star.
><st...@apache.org> Friedrich Nietzsche
>--------------------------------------------------------------------
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>------------------------- http://ApacheCon.Com ---------------------
>
>
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Re: SV: Shameless Developer Recruiting & new aspects
Posted by Stefano Mazzocchi <st...@apache.org>.
kasper wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> We have experienced a type of similar response to a serious request to the usergroup where we are offering a project to be placed in the market based on the technology. As a serious user of this maillist we made a request to Stefano Mazzocchi at first, that advised us to post the request to the user list. Unfortunately we have only received one answer to our posting and that was in terms of getting out of this list with that type of requests, blah blah.
Hmmmm, I cannot remember such a rude answer, anyway...
> This attitude could be changed into a more constructive approach with a more constructive result for both entrepreneurs and developers.
I apologize if I caused troubles with this. It was _not_ my intention.
> I can suggest that we make a new mail list or a meetingplace where entrepreneurs, capital and developers can meet to change cocoon tech. into profitable projects.
Hmmmm, I say +0... it's the first time ever I encounter something like
this.... placing money inside open source projects directly doesn't
sound like a good approach... but Cocoon (and other apache projects for
that matter) are kinda strange since they have huge markets and huge
revenue capabilities.
Ok, let's hear: what do you people think about this?
(in the meantime, I'll contact some ASF members and the XML PMC to see
what they think about this... then I'll report here)
--
Stefano Mazzocchi One must still have chaos in oneself to be
able to give birth to a dancing star.
<st...@apache.org> Friedrich Nietzsche
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Missed us in Orlando? Make it up with ApacheCON Europe in London!
------------------------- http://ApacheCon.Com ---------------------
Re: SV: Shameless Developer Recruiting & new aspects
Posted by Stefano Mazzocchi <st...@apache.org>.
Ulrich Mayring wrote:
> > >but I have to tell you: such companies don't have problems paying 125K$
> > >for a Vignette StoryServer licence.... and don't have problems running
> > >clusters of huge Sun machines to run the Oracle Application Server when
> > >they could spend one tenth using a bunch of PCs + FreeBSD + Apache +
> > >JServ.
>
> Well, I don't blame them either. Sometimes the cost of information (or
> lack thereof) is much higher than the few dollars you save in hard- and
> software.
You would have a point if the amount of feedback you receive from
commercial software was not "valuable" enough for that money, but
_better_ in an absolute way.
Apache wasted the competition not only because of price, but also
because of features and support, standard-based and open source.
All apache projects have the same attitude: they match and sometimes
pass commercial alternatives in all fields.
> The strong point of cocoon (IMHO) is not that it runs on
> crappy hardware and costs no licensing fee, but that it is
> standards-based and OpenSource. Also, it helps that it is a very well
> designed architecture. However, we're not going to throw out our Suns
> just because cocoon may also run on a PC :)
No way, I know that. In fact Cocoon runs on whatever platform you have
:)
> > > we need a killer story!
>
> Have you looked at Software AG's share price recently? AFAIK they
> haven't done anything revolutionary in the last three months, just the
> regular business of putting out new releases. But they were hyped,
> because they do XML and the share price soared. (I don't mean that their
> products are hype, just that the financial world hyped them)
Like I said: "XML Databases for B2B" and your shares rise.
> So, the XML train is rolling, every new product coming out claims to be
> XML-based. Expect to see Microsoft integrate "their" XML into their
> OSes. So, the hype is there, it just needs to be channelled - but do you
> really want excessive hype for cocoon yet?
Great point. Probably not today, but I want it by the end of the year
when Cocoon2 will be ready to stand the real-life chance on huge sites.
Anyway, wanting it or not, if the idea is good, people are going to talk
about it, no matter what... so I want to be prepared when the tide comes
:)
--
Stefano Mazzocchi One must still have chaos in oneself to be
able to give birth to a dancing star.
<st...@apache.org> Friedrich Nietzsche
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Missed us in Orlando? Make it up with ApacheCON Europe in London!
------------------------- http://ApacheCon.Com ---------------------
Re: SV: Shameless Developer Recruiting & new aspects
Posted by Ulrich Mayring <ul...@denic.de>.
kasper wrote:
>
> We have experienced a type of similar response to a serious request to the
> usergroup where we are offering a project to be placed in the market based
> on the technology. As a serious user of this maillist we made a request to
> Stefano Mazzocchi at first, that advised us to post the request to the user
> list. Unfortunately we have only received one answer to our posting and
> that was in terms of getting out of this list with that type of requests,
> blah blah.
Well, you do have to use some judgment on this. On this list nobody will
mind, because cocoon is new and there are not many specific cocoon jobs
around. But, if you think about a Java list, then you sure wouldn't want
all Java jobs being posted there.
> This attitude could be changed into a more constructive approach with a
> more constructive result for both entrepreneurs and developers. I can
> suggest that we make a new mail list or a meetingplace where
> entrepreneurs, capital and developers can meet to change cocoon tech. into
> profitable projects.
This is always the best solution, but I'm afraid currently cocoon is
still too unknown for this site to become useful. Therefore I certainly
wouldn't mind having job postings here - it helps gauge the demand for
cocoon as well and thus review our strategic decision for/against it. It
also helps to see what others are doing, what kind of applications
they'll expect to create with cocoon.
> >but I have to tell you: such companies don't have problems paying 125K$
> >for a Vignette StoryServer licence.... and don't have problems running
> >clusters of huge Sun machines to run the Oracle Application Server when
> >they could spend one tenth using a bunch of PCs + FreeBSD + Apache +
> >JServ.
Well, I don't blame them either. Sometimes the cost of information (or
lack thereof) is much higher than the few dollars you save in hard- and
software. The strong point of cocoon (IMHO) is not that it runs on
crappy hardware and costs no licensing fee, but that it is
standards-based and OpenSource. Also, it helps that it is a very well
designed architecture. However, we're not going to throw out our Suns
just because cocoon may also run on a PC :)
> > we need a killer story!
Have you looked at Software AG's share price recently? AFAIK they
haven't done anything revolutionary in the last three months, just the
regular business of putting out new releases. But they were hyped,
because they do XML and the share price soared. (I don't mean that their
products are hype, just that the financial world hyped them)
So, the XML train is rolling, every new product coming out claims to be
XML-based. Expect to see Microsoft integrate "their" XML into their
OSes. So, the hype is there, it just needs to be channelled - but do you
really want excessive hype for cocoon yet?
Ulrich
--
Ulrich Mayring
DENIC eG, Softwareentwicklung