Should we

["Md. Jahid Shohel" <de...@gmail.com>]

Hi,

I was wondering, if we should do something to increase the users of Click.
There are some ways that I can see-

1) irc channel: I can create one on freenode. And we all can come there when
we are online. That way users can get live help. Will also open scope for us
to chat online. Most of the popular frameworks have channels under freenode.
That way normal users also becomes helper for each other. And not to mention
that, live helps are better then any sort of forum based (asynchronous)
helps, because its live :). Of course cooperation from all will be needed
for this.

2) Groups: There are some extremely popular groups I know, where we can post
our updates and release news. These groups are Java user groups. I
personally can take care of this posting new updates and releases.

What you think? Also if you have other ides, please share.

Thanks,

Jahid

Re: Should we

["Md. Jahid Shohel" <de...@gmail.com>]

On Sun, Jul 4, 2010 at 5:51 AM, Bob Schellink <sa...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 4/07/2010 09:36, Md. Jahid Shohel wrote:
> >
> > 1) irc channel: I can create one on freenode. And we all can come there
> > when we are online. That way users can get live help. Will also open
> > scope for us to chat online. Most of the popular frameworks have
> > channels under freenode. That way normal users also becomes helper for
> > each other. And not to mention that, live helps are better then any sort
> > of forum based (asynchronous) helps, because its live :). Of course
> > cooperation from all will be needed for this.
>
>
> I don't see how this will expand the user base but feel free to open an IRC
> channel and we can add
> it to the website somewhere. I personally don't use live channels because
> its too easy to get
> interrupted. There is also no searchable archive (but I could be wrong)?
>
>

>I don't see how this will expand the user base but feel free to open an IRC
channel and we can add

Getting the support fast, support always works for people. and when they
recommend about a framework, they say it like this way "their support is
very good, and community is very strong". and while saying those, i saw
people mentioning irc channels.

>There is also no searchable archive (but I could be wrong)?

Yes there is if we can spend time. I saw channels (ex. Java, Wicket,
Spring,etc channels) grew up their irc bot, which contains a lot of
information, and its easily searchable. And in fact, there is a Kenai Java
project for such irc bot. Of course, dedication is needed for that to grow
up the bot. Once a bot is matured, then bot in fact reply everything :)



I have registered a room on freenode (irc.freenode.com) with name #click.
Lets see how it goes.

Re: Should we

[Bob Schellink <sa...@gmail.com>]

On 4/07/2010 09:36, Md. Jahid Shohel wrote:
> 
> 1) irc channel: I can create one on freenode. And we all can come there
> when we are online. That way users can get live help. Will also open
> scope for us to chat online. Most of the popular frameworks have
> channels under freenode. That way normal users also becomes helper for
> each other. And not to mention that, live helps are better then any sort
> of forum based (asynchronous) helps, because its live :). Of course
> cooperation from all will be needed for this.


I don't see how this will expand the user base but feel free to open an IRC channel and we can add
it to the website somewhere. I personally don't use live channels because its too easy to get
interrupted. There is also no searchable archive (but I could be wrong)?


> 2) Groups: There are some extremely popular groups I know, where we can
> post our updates and release news. These groups are Java user groups. I
> personally can take care of this posting new updates and releases.


+1 good idea.

I think the main way to popularize a framework is through articles and blog entries. Showcases is
another good way convincing folk of the validity of a framework. We have a "Powered by"[1] WIKI page
but is not prominent enough. Perhaps we can link to it from the homepage. There is also a book which
isn't prominent enough on our homepage.

Bob

[1]: https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/CLICK/Powered+By+Click

Re: Should we

["Md. Jahid Shohel" <de...@gmail.com>]

Saying from my experience, whenever I talked to people, I saw them judging a
frameworks considering, how strong their community is, how good their
support is. I agree that good tutorials, blogs helps a lot. But getting
online help (forum based, or instant) attracts people, because it keeps them
going with the development. Because on online example it is not possible to
cover all cases that all user can go through, and that is the phase when
user try to reach community for help. I used such help while i was working
with Java, Wicket, Spring, Javascript, Hibernate, Scala and lift. And for
all those, I just went to the room, and just ask about the issue, And I got
instant answer. I really enjoyed that, then searching and reading forums, or
googling about certain issue. But of course these can vary person to person.

Yes also agree with Malcom, and Bob that having a list of sites who uses the
technology helps use a lot to choose a framework. So Bob's idea about having
the list sites who uses the application is a good idea.


On Tue, Jul 6, 2010 at 12:27 PM, Malcolm Edgar <ma...@gmail.com>wrote:

> Agreed with many of these comments. A couple things Architects will
> look at when evaluating a framework like Click are:
> * where is it being used (e.g. gives me confidence other people are
> using it successfully, and will help justify my recommendation)
> * is it a solid open source project. Apache helps considerable here (tick)
> * it it well documented (tick)
> * good online examples (tick)
>
> I think getting reference sites and testimonials will really help with
> people evaluating Click.  I think more online articles will help raise
> its profile.
>
> regards Malcolm Edgar
>
> On Tue, Jul 6, 2010 at 6:33 PM, Adrian A. <a....@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> 1) irc channel: I can create one on freenode. And we all can come there
> >> when we are online. That way users can get live help. Will also open
> >> scope for us to chat online. Most of the popular frameworks have
> >> channels under freenode. That way normal users also becomes helper for
> >> each other. And not to mention that, live helps are better then any sort
> >> of forum based (asynchronous) helps, because its live :). Of course
> >> cooperation from all will be needed for this.
> >
> > I also don't think IRC is a solution for small/medium open source
> projects,
> > but the mailing lists.
> > Even for bigger projects, IMHO a Campfire like approach is better.
> >
> > Not even many companies use IM because of the constant possibility of
> > distraction and workflow interruption.
> >
> > On the other hand, many times I hear as an argument against Click
> (compared
> > to the concurrence) the low level of mailing list traffic :).
> > This is of course quite illogical - because of the very good Click online
> > documentation: the users have no need to constantly ask trivial questions
> -
> > but this doesn't seem to count in stats :).
> >
> >> 2) Groups: There are some extremely popular groups I know, where we can
> >> post our updates and release news. These groups are Java user groups. I
> >> personally can take care of this posting new updates and releases.
> >
> > Good idea, but this must be done very sensitively because of the
> possibility
> > to be interpreted as "spam" thus having the opposite effect.
> >
> >> What you think? Also if you have other ides, please share.
> >
> > 1. More examples of applications/sites using Click + testimonials from
> the
> > users about how Click helped them.
> > 2. Blog posts, articles (IMHO the most important popularization source)
> on
> > DZone, StackOverflow, InfoQ etc. (TSS seems lost). For bigger impact they
> > need to be from unbiased 3rd parties.
> > 3. User integrations and examples of Click with other frameworks (e.g.
> other
> > ORMs too).
> > 4. More tools with and for Click.
> >
> > From what I've experienced so far, the most convincing arguments for
> those
> > who usually decide (management, PLs), are (preferably commercial)
> > *live/public* applications with that specific framework. Unfortunately
> until
> > this moment, most Click apps are intranet based, so there's not that much
> to
> > show :(.
> >
> > Adrian.
> >
> >
>

Re: Should we

[Malcolm Edgar <ma...@gmail.com>]

Agreed with many of these comments. A couple things Architects will
look at when evaluating a framework like Click are:
* where is it being used (e.g. gives me confidence other people are
using it successfully, and will help justify my recommendation)
* is it a solid open source project. Apache helps considerable here (tick)
* it it well documented (tick)
* good online examples (tick)

I think getting reference sites and testimonials will really help with
people evaluating Click.  I think more online articles will help raise
its profile.

regards Malcolm Edgar

On Tue, Jul 6, 2010 at 6:33 PM, Adrian A. <a....@gmail.com> wrote:
>> 1) irc channel: I can create one on freenode. And we all can come there
>> when we are online. That way users can get live help. Will also open
>> scope for us to chat online. Most of the popular frameworks have
>> channels under freenode. That way normal users also becomes helper for
>> each other. And not to mention that, live helps are better then any sort
>> of forum based (asynchronous) helps, because its live :). Of course
>> cooperation from all will be needed for this.
>
> I also don't think IRC is a solution for small/medium open source projects,
> but the mailing lists.
> Even for bigger projects, IMHO a Campfire like approach is better.
>
> Not even many companies use IM because of the constant possibility of
> distraction and workflow interruption.
>
> On the other hand, many times I hear as an argument against Click (compared
> to the concurrence) the low level of mailing list traffic :).
> This is of course quite illogical - because of the very good Click online
> documentation: the users have no need to constantly ask trivial questions -
> but this doesn't seem to count in stats :).
>
>> 2) Groups: There are some extremely popular groups I know, where we can
>> post our updates and release news. These groups are Java user groups. I
>> personally can take care of this posting new updates and releases.
>
> Good idea, but this must be done very sensitively because of the possibility
> to be interpreted as "spam" thus having the opposite effect.
>
>> What you think? Also if you have other ides, please share.
>
> 1. More examples of applications/sites using Click + testimonials from the
> users about how Click helped them.
> 2. Blog posts, articles (IMHO the most important popularization source) on
> DZone, StackOverflow, InfoQ etc. (TSS seems lost). For bigger impact they
> need to be from unbiased 3rd parties.
> 3. User integrations and examples of Click with other frameworks (e.g. other
> ORMs too).
> 4. More tools with and for Click.
>
> From what I've experienced so far, the most convincing arguments for those
> who usually decide (management, PLs), are (preferably commercial)
> *live/public* applications with that specific framework. Unfortunately until
> this moment, most Click apps are intranet based, so there's not that much to
> show :(.
>
> Adrian.
>
>

Re: Should we

["Adrian A." <a....@gmail.com>]

> 1) irc channel: I can create one on freenode. And we all can come there
> when we are online. That way users can get live help. Will also open
> scope for us to chat online. Most of the popular frameworks have
> channels under freenode. That way normal users also becomes helper for
> each other. And not to mention that, live helps are better then any sort
> of forum based (asynchronous) helps, because its live :). Of course
> cooperation from all will be needed for this.
I also don't think IRC is a solution for small/medium open source 
projects, but the mailing lists.
Even for bigger projects, IMHO a Campfire like approach is better.

Not even many companies use IM because of the constant possibility of 
distraction and workflow interruption.

On the other hand, many times I hear as an argument against Click 
(compared to the concurrence) the low level of mailing list traffic :).
This is of course quite illogical - because of the very good Click 
online documentation: the users have no need to constantly ask trivial 
questions - but this doesn't seem to count in stats :).

> 2) Groups: There are some extremely popular groups I know, where we can
> post our updates and release news. These groups are Java user groups. I
> personally can take care of this posting new updates and releases.
Good idea, but this must be done very sensitively because of the 
possibility to be interpreted as "spam" thus having the opposite effect.

> What you think? Also if you have other ides, please share.
1. More examples of applications/sites using Click + testimonials from 
the users about how Click helped them.
2. Blog posts, articles (IMHO the most important popularization source) 
on DZone, StackOverflow, InfoQ etc. (TSS seems lost). For bigger impact 
they need to be from unbiased 3rd parties.
3. User integrations and examples of Click with other frameworks (e.g. 
other ORMs too).
4. More tools with and for Click.

 From what I've experienced so far, the most convincing arguments for 
those who usually decide (management, PLs), are (preferably commercial) 
*live/public* applications with that specific framework. Unfortunately 
until this moment, most Click apps are intranet based, so there's not 
that much to show :(.

Adrian.