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Posted to general@jakarta.apache.org by Robert Simpson <rs...@verizon.net> on 2003/07/14 08:21:49 UTC
[i18n] Internationalization project
To: Community@Apache.org
On the Jakarta General list, we've been discussing the possibility of introducing an "Internationalization" project into incubation. It seems the consensus is that it should be targeted for a top-level programming-language-independent and spoken-language-independent Apache project, rather a Jakarta subproject.
(To anyone on the JG list: I used a blind CC so that this is the only message on Community@Apache.org which should be CCd to JG. You can set up message filters on "[i18n]" on both lists to follow the discussions in either place....)
A preliminary organization of the project based on the JG discussions is included in my message below.
I don't mind "spearheading" the incubation myself. Is there anyone else interested whom we can add to the list of contributors (see A through F below)? Is there anything else we should consider before requesting entry into incubation?
TIA.
Robert Simpson
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [i18n] Internationalization subproject sponsor?
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2003 21:32:36 +0100
From: robert burrell donkin <ro...@blueyonder.co.uk>
Reply-To: "Jakarta General List" <ge...@jakarta.apache.org>
To: "Jakarta General List" <ge...@jakarta.apache.org>
On Monday, July 7, 2003, at 01:14 PM, Robert Simpson wrote:
<snip>
> I am surprised there isn't more interest in a common internationalization
> framework within Jakarta. But then I have been assuming that there are
> non-English-speaking "members" in Jakarta, not just "committers" and
> other users of the code.
i think that there several jakarta members who are not native english
speakers. as Tetsuya Kitahata pointed out there are far fewer members than
committers and i'm not sure whether there are any jakarta members who are
native speakers of non-latin languages. it takes a lot of energy to
spearhead an incubation and it's a big commitment for a member to make.
but i don't think that the member would have to come from jakarta (even if
that's where those people involved with the product hope that it will end
up). i wonder whether you might have more luck finding a sponsor over in
xml-land. since many of their products are multi-language a common i18n
framework may be of more pressing importance than here. i also have an
idea that there are members whose native languages are non-latin.
i like the idea of an apache wide i18n project along the lines suggested
by Tetsuya Kitahata.
- robert
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [i18n] Internationalization subproject
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2003 08:55:00 -0400
Reply-To: "Jakarta General List" <ge...@jakarta.apache.org>,Rob.Simpson@iToolSet.com
To: Jakarta General List <ge...@jakarta.apache.org>
References: <20...@jarre.pair.com> <20...@apache.org> <3F...@verizon.net> <3F...@hisitech.com> <3F...@verizon.net> <3F...@hisitech.com>
WRT Santiago's point about keeping the different translations in sync, the solution is to have each word/phrase in (1) or each section in (2) identified in the XML with a version number. Then it would be a simple matter to have a program compare the two documents, and indicate where the translation needs to be updated (the program could even provide an initial translation of the section via machine translation, to be refined by the human translator). The XML should also indicate who made each change and whether a change was prompted by a need to change the document (additions to content, for example) or as a translation of another version. That way, no particular translation would have to be the "primary" document, and any conflicts could be identified and handled. For example, a Spanish-speaking person could add a missing section to the Spanish translation of a document, and that section could then be translated back into the original and other translations. This arrangement could also handle "proposed" additions (the XML equivalent of "I, a Spanish translator, propose to add a new section here"), which could be commented on (ex: "that section would be better placed over there") and/or voted on by translators of other languages, etc....
Am I getting the feeling right that the Internationalization project would be ultimately targeted for a top level, multiple-programming-language Apache project? If so, I think the best approach would be to get the Java support done first, to demonstrate its viability and usefulness. But still, from the start, the intent should be to design with language-independence as the ultimate goal.
So, in summary, the organization of the project would be:
1. code common to both (1) and (2)
1.1 code
This would include any code that supports both (2) and (3), such as the code to do comparisons between translations
1.1.1 any programming-language-neutral stuff (configuration files, XML, etc)
1.1.2 Java
1.1.2.1 source code
1.1.2.1.1 source code contributors (committers)
1.1.3+ other programming languages, similarly
2. user interface internationalization (words and phrases)
2.1 code
This would include the code to generate programming-language-specific resources, and provide access to those resources
2.1.1 any programming-language-neutral stuff (configuration files, XML, etc)
2.1.2 Java
2.1.2.1 source code
2.1.2.1.1 source code contributors (committers)
2.1.2.2 resources (translations, generated from XML)
2.1.3+ other programming languages, similarly
2.1.3+.1 source code for other programming languages
2.1.3+.2 resources for other programming languages (translations, generated from XML)
2.2 language translations (programming-language-neutral)
2.2.1 any spoken-language-neutral stuff (all-language distribution files, JUnit tests for file verification, etc)
2.2.2 English language translations (initial "source" translations)
2.2.2.1 XML format
2.2.2.1.1 English language translators (committers)
2.2.2.2 English user references
2.2.2.2.1 XML formatted user reference (generated, XSL-FO?)
2.2.2.2.2 HTML formatted user reference (generated, possibly with a doclet)
2.2.2.2.3 PDF formatted user reference (generated, possibly from XML user reference using Apache XML-FOP)
2.2.3+ other spoken languages, similarly
3. internationalization of complete documents
3.1 code
This would include code or tools (possibly making use of other Apache code) to generate specific document file formats
3.1.1 any programming-language-neutral stuff (configuration files, XML, etc)
3.1.2 Java
3.1.2.1 source code
3.1.2.1.1 source code contributors (committers)
3.1.3+ other programming languages, similarly
3.1.3+.1 source code for other programming languages
3.2 language translations (programming-language-neutral)
3.2.1 any spoken-language-neutral stuff (all-language distribution files, JUnit tests for file verification, etc)
3.2.2 English language translations (initial "source" translations)
3.2.2.1 XML format (based on XSL-FO?)
3.2.2.1.1 English language translators (committers)
3.2.2.2 HTML format (generated)
3.2.2.3 PDF format (generated, possibly using Apache XML-FOP)
3.2.2.4+ other document file formats (generated)
3.2.3+ other spoken languages, similarly
The main difference between sections (2) and (3) is that (2) is organized primarily by programming language, with the programming-language-specific resources as part of the first subsection (2.1) keeping the second section (2.2) programming-language-neutral, while (3) is organized primarily by spoken language, with the programming-language-independent file formats as part of the second subsection (3.2), keeping them separate from the programming-language-specific stuff in the first subsection (3.1).
I'd be willing to work on the common code and user interface code, and it looks like there is a good starting list for the language translators. Is there anyone willing to drive the second part, the internationalization of complete documents?
I can also be update the proposal as indicated above, and then let it be reviewed/modified here, or in CVS somewhere. In your replies to the mailing list, please indicate in which of the following ways you might be willing to contribute:
A) committer for code for internationalization of user interface and possibly common code
B) committer for code for internationalization of complete documents and possibly common code
C) language translation (either or both UI or documents)
D) sponsor entry of Java version of Internationalization subproject into Jakarta
E) incorporate internationalization into another Apache/Jakarta sub/project (please specify)
F) none of the above
Robert Simpson
Santiago Gala wrote:
> Robert Simpson escribió:
> > Santiago Gala,
> >
> > As far a document and resource translation, I'm not sure if you are
> > referring to machine translation, or human translation. My focus has
> > been on human translation, mainly because machine translation is
> > still pretty far from perfect. There could be APIs for interfaces to
> > various machine translation tools, such as Systransoft, but I think
> > that should be a later, secondary priority. Even if there was
> > support for machine translation, I would prefer that it could be
> > augmented by human proofreading and revision. So it's probably just
> > as easy to let the language translator use whatever machine
> > translation tool s/he prefers.
> >
>
> David Taylor has already anwered WRT code.
>
> I was thinking mostly about having a "pool" of people who can translate
> and are more or less "cross project". For instance, I can translate
> English to Spanish, and I'm a committer in Jetspeed, but I could also
> translate, say, parts of the tomcat documents that I'm reading, or some
> XML stuff I'm interested into. Or even docs for Apache modules.
>
> The good part is that it would help the whole community, both WRT
> translation efforts and WRT crosspollination, as these kind of people
> will "see" beyond their small project(s). Also, it oculd bring new kinds
> of developers (Today I heard in the radio, coming home, that 72% od
> people in Spain cannot speak *any* foreign language. We are a bad sample
> but in most of Europe, less than 50% people speaks English.)
>
> The problem is that I can't see clearly how to implement such a
> crosscutting service/project, in ways that would not be difficult to
> impossible to manage. Specially since we should keep source control on
> both the original doc and the translations in sync.
>
> Any ideas?
>
> Regards
> --
> Santiago Gala
> High Sierra Technology, S.L. (http://hisitech.com)
> http://memojo.com?page=SantiagoGalaBlog
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Re: [i18n] Internationalization project
Posted by Tetsuya Kitahata <te...@apache.org>.
David.
Robert (Simpson) is not trying to recruit the guys to jakarta-general.
Never. Never. Never.
Sincerely,
-- Tetsuya (tetsuya@apache.org)
P.S. Rather, from jakarta-general to community@, i think
---------------------------------------------------------------------
On Mon, 14 Jul 2003 15:46:21 +0100
(Subject: Re: [i18n] Internationalization project)
"David Reid" <da...@jetnet.co.uk> wrote:
> Robert,
>
> Thanks for cross-porting, but please don't try to invite people to
> jakarta-general@ from this list! This list has a wider audience and as any
> internationalization project will fail in it's objectives unless it is used
> across the entire of the ASF the community@ list would appear to make more
> sense for these discussions. The fact that the discussion rose to this list
> from the jakarta-general@ list is a good sign of it's intended direction, so
> please don't try to reverse that now.The aim of community@ was to foster a
> sense of greater community within the ASF, not to provide a recuiting ground
> for jakarta-general@ or any other such list :)
-----------------------------------------------------
Tetsuya Kitahata -- Terra-International, Inc.
E-mail: kitahata@bb.mbn.or.jp : tetsuya@apache.org
http://www.terra-intl.com/
(Apache Jakarta Translation, Japanese)
http://jakarta.terra-intl.com/
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RE: [i18n] Internationalization project
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
How's about Apache Commons?
FWIW, we have some code in James that might be useful for in this area.
Yes, the James code is written in Java, but the real offering is the XML
resource format, and the operations.
--- Noel
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Re: [i18n] Internationalization project
Posted by Tetsuya Kitahata <te...@apache.org>.
On Tue, 15 Jul 2003 11:53:30 +1000
Conor MacNeill <co...@apache.org> wrote:
> On Tue, 15 Jul 2003 10:52 am, Tetsuya Kitahata wrote:
> > For me, proposed project whose final target (destination) is TLP itself
> > would not fit to the incubator charter.
> AFAIK, the incubator is for all new code coming to Apache whether it is
> destined for an existing project or it becomes a new Apache project, so
> called TLP.
1.
Yes. Sure, *new code* coming to Apache is better to be incubated
at Incubator project, I know. Then, how it goes with *new concept
concerning with infrastructural issue*?
At
http://incubator.apache.org/process.html
, "[others..?] " line can be added, right?
2.
Okay, Incubator project can take up the would-be-TLP. I see.
Then, where can I/we seek the sponsoring (mentoring) member
in apache.org? ... is it possible to seek the mentoring ASF members
from various TLPs in Apache?
> The creation of a new Project/PMC would require a board resolution. That may
> be one outcome of incubation as indicated in the above quote.
O.K. *indicated* above: ... I assume I can take it with broad
interpretation
These lines you mentioned above gave me a broad insights into the
issues for the new projects.
> Conor
Thank you for everything, Conor and David.
I'll translate the Incubator Project's website into japanese more, and
I am sure I can gain more broader insights into the incubation process
in consequence of this translation process:
http://incubator.terra-intl.com/
Sincerely,
-- Tetsuya (tetsuya@apache.org)
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Re: [i18n] Internationalization project
Posted by David Reid <da...@jetnet.co.uk>.
> On Mon, 14 Jul 2003 15:46:21 +0100
> (Subject: Re: [i18n] Internationalization project)
> "David Reid" <da...@jetnet.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > I really don't think placing such a project anywhere but the incubator
makes
> > sense...
>
> For me, proposed project whose final target (destination) is TLP itself
> would not fit to the incubator charter.
> Rather, creation of the "task force team" (mailing list) might be
> preferable...
>
> Also, it is similar to the creation of Incubator Project itself
> last year, I guess.
>
> Am i right? wrong?
I think you're wrong - sorry :( Basically the incubutaor is a staging area
for new projects. It provides a place for them to build a stable basis and
gain support/experience before they move on. Whatever level they're destined
for within the ASF is irrelevant to the process of getting the lists, cvs
and general structure setup - which is what the incubator exists for. If the
project succeeds in getting "bootstrapped" then it'll be moved on and out of
the incubator.
Another important consideration is that getting started in the incubator
isn't as hard as getting setup as a full project.
david
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Re: [i18n] Internationalization project
Posted by Conor MacNeill <co...@apache.org>.
On Tue, 15 Jul 2003 10:52 am, Tetsuya Kitahata wrote:
> For me, proposed project whose final target (destination) is TLP itself
> would not fit to the incubator charter.
AFAIK, the incubator is for all new code coming to Apache whether it is
destined for an existing project or it becomes a new Apache project, so
called TLP.
This is from the original board resolution
"RESOLVED, that the Apache Incubator PMC is responsible for regularly
evaluating products under its purview and making the determination in each
case of whether the product should be abandoned, continue to receive guidance
and support, or proposed to the board for promotion to full project status as
part of an existing or new Foundation PMC; and be it further"
> Rather, creation of the "task force team" (mailing list) might be
> preferable...
>
> Also, it is similar to the creation of Incubator Project itself
> last year, I guess.
>
The creation of a new Project/PMC would require a board resolution. That may
be one outcome of incubation as indicated in the above quote.
Conor
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Re: [i18n] Internationalization project
Posted by Tetsuya Kitahata <te...@apache.org>.
On Mon, 14 Jul 2003 15:46:21 +0100
(Subject: Re: [i18n] Internationalization project)
"David Reid" <da...@jetnet.co.uk> wrote:
> I really don't think placing such a project anywhere but the incubator makes
> sense...
For me, proposed project whose final target (destination) is TLP itself
would not fit to the incubator charter.
Rather, creation of the "task force team" (mailing list) might be
preferable...
Also, it is similar to the creation of Incubator Project itself
last year, I guess.
Am i right? wrong?
Sincerely,
-- Tetsuya (tetsuya@apache.org)
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Re: [i18n] Internationalization project
Posted by Nicola Ken Barozzi <ni...@apache.org>.
Robert Simpson wrote, On 15/07/2003 14.18:
> If this is to possibly become a top-level Apache project, where should it be discussed?
In the Incubator we will accept for Top Level projects only those that
have a big and solid community around them.
For all others, there needs to be a sponsoring PMC that takes care of
them, and they will go under that PMCs.
Projects that start from scratch and that don't have a final sponsoring
PMC loaction are encouraged to use one of the sandboxes in the various
TLPs (Jakarta Commons, etc), use Sourceforge, or the common CVS for
Apache committers (if it originates at Apache).
If you want to get it off the ground, MHO is to start looking for a
sponsoring PMC and work with them. TLP will come /eventually/ later,
maybe after 6 months, on year, two years, or never.
--
Nicola Ken Barozzi nicolaken@apache.org
- verba volant, scripta manent -
(discussions get forgotten, just code remains)
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Re: [i18n] Internationalization project
Posted by Thom May <th...@apache.org>.
Hi
* Roy T. Fielding (fielding@apache.org) wrote :
> >OK, well I had a discussion last night with some folks from the
> >incubator
> >PMC and frankly it upset me. It was one of those evenings when you
> >realise
> >how crap organisations can be and makes you wonder why you bother with
> >them
> >:( I really wasn't impressed.
>
> i18n isn't a code project. It isn't even an documentation project.
> In fact, there doesn't even seem to be any reason for it to be a
> project.
I don't think this is quite right; translation generally doesn't require
developer level knowledge of the thing being translated, so a pool of
translators could work on all our software, rather than being tied to a
specific sub-project, like httpd-doc's translators. (see
http://developer.gnome.org/projects/gtp/ for where I'm going with this.)
> Why would incubator have anything to do with it?
I don't think this is a project that needs to be incubated, it should be a
function of the foundation, almost.
Whilst, yes, the commits will have to be performed by individual projects, a
place for translation teams to coordinate, develop best practises and also
recruit new translators would be, I suspect, very welcome.
Cheers
-Thom
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Re: [i18n] Internationalization project
Posted by Robert Simpson <rs...@verizon.net>.
David,
Thanks for talking to the incubator folks, and for the update. The reason I had originally targeted i18n/l10n for Apache is that is the code that I'm primarily familiar with, as a "user" of the various projects (mostly various Jakarta subprojects, plus Ant and some XML). Since I don't really use any of the SourceForge projects (I'm not even sure what their equivalents of the Apache projects are, except maybe for WebMacro being their equivalent to Velocity, if that's even from SourceForge), I don't really feel any loyalty to them, or have the motivation to contribute there, if I'm not using their code. I'd rather continue contributing to Apache where I can.
Even if targeted for JG, it still needs to go to the incubator first, so I'm not really sure where to go from here, except to wait for it to become more obvious to more people that an i18n/l10n project is needed. It looks like some missed the fact that there is code involved, to keep the various translations in sync as additions are made in different languages, and to produce the programming-language-specific files from the XML translations.
It's pretty much been discussed out on JG, since Feb, and only the final result for the project structure was what was posted earlier on this list. So the next step seemed to be to get it into the incubator. On JG it hadn't sounded like it wouldn't be that much of a problem getting it incubated.
Robert Simpson
David Reid wrote:
> OK, well I had a discussion last night with some folks from the incubator
> PMC and frankly it upset me. It was one of those evenings when you realise
> how crap organisations can be and makes you wonder why you bother with them
> :( I really wasn't impressed.
>
> In fact to give you an idea, the overriding suggestion that came out was
> (paraphrased) "go to sourceforge and when you have a community and code then
> we'll think about adding you to the incubator".
>
> So, basically that's the only option that the esteemed ASF incubuator
> project appears to offer.
>
> I'd suggest therefore that you take the discussion back to JG and work on it
> there as at least you seem to have some peope who are interested in it there
> :(
>
> I wish I could bring myself to be more enthusiastic, but I really don't see
> the point of having the incubator at this moment in time.
>
> david
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Robert Simpson" <rs...@verizon.net>
> To: <Co...@Apache.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2003 1:18 PM
> Subject: Re: [i18n] Internationalization project
>
> >
> > David - sorry - my intention wasn't to invite people to Jakarta General
> from here, but to see where it should be moved, somewhere "above" JG, as
> indicated by the discussions there. If this is to possibly become a
> top-level Apache project, where should it be discussed? (Up to now, I've
> primarily been following Jakarta discussions, since that's the only code
> I've contributed to so far).
> >
> > Andrew - sorry - I hadn't realized that the Community list wasn't open to
> everyone. If we are to keep the discussion on a list that is open to
> everyone, where would that be?
> >
> > TIA.
> > Robert Simpson
> >
> > David Reid wrote:
> >
> > > Robert,
> > >
> > > Thanks for cross-porting, but please don't try to invite people to
> > > jakarta-general@ from this list! This list has a wider audience and as
> any
> > > internationalization project will fail in it's objectives unless it is
> used
> > > across the entire of the ASF the community@ list would appear to make
> more
> > > sense for these discussions. The fact that the discussion rose to this
> list
> > > from the jakarta-general@ list is a good sign of it's intended
> direction, so
> > > please don't try to reverse that now.The aim of community@ was to foster
> a
> > > sense of greater community within the ASF, not to provide a recuiting
> ground
> > > for jakarta-general@ or any other such list :)
> > >
> > > I really don't think placing such a project anywhere but the incubator
> makes
> > > sense...
> > >
> > > david
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: community-unsubscribe@apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: community-help@apache.org
> >
> >
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Re: [l10n] localisation infrastructure (was Re: [i18n] Internationalization project)
Posted by Tetsuya Kitahata <te...@apache.org>.
On Tue, 15 Jul 2003 19:23:50 +0200
(Subject: [l10n] localisation infrastructure (was Re: [i18n] Internationalization project))
Santiago Gala <sg...@hisitech.com> wrote:
> I think the original proposal was purely about i18n technology for java.
> But the discussion drifted into translation of docs, web sites, etc. It
> is unfortunate that I (and other people) mixed two differen issues here
> and mudded the discussion a bit.
Sorry, it is due to me... :-(
> Let's separate the issues back. I changed this thread to be about
> translation efforts. Please don't bring code back to this thread.
Okay.
--
I'll write more about the l10n sooner or later.
(I have the experience of the translation ... *a lot*, so it might
help you)
Again, completely i agree with the Santiago's view.
Sincerely,
-- Tetsuya (tetsuya@apache.org)
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Re: [l10n] localisation infrastructure
Posted by Tetsuya Kitahata <te...@apache.org>.
Hi Danny,
CC-ed : Remy Maucherat
On Tue, 22 Jul 2003 10:19:21 +0100
"Danny Angus" <da...@apache.org> wrote:
> > There might be the best solution for putting the translation
> > efforts, but I am just wondering how to implement.
> > Please give me more time.
>
> I certainly don't mean to resist your efforts, I'm just concerned about what
> would happen if for some reason you were no longer available to maintain
> James Japanese translation.
>
> I'm confident that you'll make a reasonable proposal, and look forward to
> it.
I think there are some talks about the tomcat 5.0 test env
on apache.org.
# at infrastructure@
I am wondering the "translation effort" sites might be sure to fit
to the tomcat 5.0 test environment, no doubt.
# Hey, Apache-Wide website translation effort offers the *best* test env
# for tomcat!! What do you think? >> Remy
... However, there is 2 problems ... MONEY and SERVER (machine+man)
uhmmmm...
(Still wondering ...... )
Sincerely,
-- Tetsuya (tetsuya@apache.org)
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Re: [l10n] localisation infrastructure
Posted by Tetsuya Kitahata <te...@apache.org>.
Hi Danny,
CC-ed : Remy Maucherat
On Tue, 22 Jul 2003 10:19:21 +0100
"Danny Angus" <da...@apache.org> wrote:
> > There might be the best solution for putting the translation
> > efforts, but I am just wondering how to implement.
> > Please give me more time.
>
> I certainly don't mean to resist your efforts, I'm just concerned about what
> would happen if for some reason you were no longer available to maintain
> James Japanese translation.
>
> I'm confident that you'll make a reasonable proposal, and look forward to
> it.
I think there are some talks about the tomcat 5.0 test env
on apache.org.
# at infrastructure@
I am wondering the "translation effort" sites might be sure to fit
to the tomcat 5.0 test environment, no doubt.
# Hey, Apache-Wide website translation effort offers the *best* test env
# for tomcat!! What do you think? >> Remy
... However, there is 2 problems ... MONEY and SERVER (machine+man)
uhmmmm...
(Still wondering ...... )
Sincerely,
-- Tetsuya (tetsuya@apache.org)
RE: [l10n] localisation infrastructure
Posted by Danny Angus <da...@apache.org>.
Tetsuya,
> Sure. I think status quo is important.
<snip>
> There might be the best solution for putting the translation
> efforts, but I am just wondering how to implement.
> Please give me more time.
I certainly don't mean to resist your efforts, I'm just concerned about what
would happen if for some reason you were no longer available to maintain
James Japanese translation.
I'm confident that you'll make a reasonable proposal, and look forward to
it.
> http://jakarta.apache-korea.org/james/
Interesting, thanks.
d.
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RE: [l10n] localisation infrastructure
Posted by Danny Angus <da...@apache.org>.
Tetsuya,
> Sure. I think status quo is important.
<snip>
> There might be the best solution for putting the translation
> efforts, but I am just wondering how to implement.
> Please give me more time.
I certainly don't mean to resist your efforts, I'm just concerned about what
would happen if for some reason you were no longer available to maintain
James Japanese translation.
I'm confident that you'll make a reasonable proposal, and look forward to
it.
> http://jakarta.apache-korea.org/james/
Interesting, thanks.
d.
Re: [l10n] localisation infrastructure
Posted by Tetsuya Kitahata <te...@apache.org>.
Danny, All,
Sure. I think status quo is important.
Luckily, (and thanks to all the infrastructure team members and board)
I got an account on daedalus, I am now *exploring* under the /x2/www/
directory. If I do not have basic knowledge on daedalus, my
*imaginary-best-idea* might be meaningless...
There might be the best solution for putting the translation
efforts, but I am just wondering how to implement.
Please give me more time.
cf. James Website Translation into Korean:
http://jakarta.apache-korea.org/james/
Sincerely,
-- Tetsuya (tetsuya@apache.org)
P.S. If I describe the condition of /x2/www/jakarta.apache.org/
in one word which came to my mind, it might be .. *CreteLabylinth*
, big spectacle :D
---------------------------------------------------------------------
On Mon, 21 Jul 2003 14:27:41 +0100
(Subject: RE: [l10n] localisation infrastructure)
"Danny Angus" <da...@apache.org> wrote:
> > (a) keeping translations up-to-date,
>
> This is why I'd prefer the status quo, currently we have a Japanese
> translation of James site and docs which is "unofficial" but linked from the
> James site.
>
> What this means is that the Japanese is available but is not authoritative.
> If we publish Japanese on james.apache.org this would be seen as
> authoritative and MUST therefore to be up-to-date and accurate.
>
> We have no-one among the James commiters who writes a word of Japanese, and
> we couldn't necessarily rely upon Tetsuya being available to translate when
> we want him to.
>
> I'm very much in favour of having translations, but concerned about the
> resources required not to create them but to maintain them.
>
> d.
Re: [l10n] localisation infrastructure
Posted by Tetsuya Kitahata <te...@apache.org>.
Danny, All,
Sure. I think status quo is important.
Luckily, (and thanks to all the infrastructure team members and board)
I got an account on daedalus, I am now *exploring* under the /x2/www/
directory. If I do not have basic knowledge on daedalus, my
*imaginary-best-idea* might be meaningless...
There might be the best solution for putting the translation
efforts, but I am just wondering how to implement.
Please give me more time.
cf. James Website Translation into Korean:
http://jakarta.apache-korea.org/james/
Sincerely,
-- Tetsuya (tetsuya@apache.org)
P.S. If I describe the condition of /x2/www/jakarta.apache.org/
in one word which came to my mind, it might be .. *CreteLabylinth*
, big spectacle :D
---------------------------------------------------------------------
On Mon, 21 Jul 2003 14:27:41 +0100
(Subject: RE: [l10n] localisation infrastructure)
"Danny Angus" <da...@apache.org> wrote:
> > (a) keeping translations up-to-date,
>
> This is why I'd prefer the status quo, currently we have a Japanese
> translation of James site and docs which is "unofficial" but linked from the
> James site.
>
> What this means is that the Japanese is available but is not authoritative.
> If we publish Japanese on james.apache.org this would be seen as
> authoritative and MUST therefore to be up-to-date and accurate.
>
> We have no-one among the James commiters who writes a word of Japanese, and
> we couldn't necessarily rely upon Tetsuya being available to translate when
> we want him to.
>
> I'm very much in favour of having translations, but concerned about the
> resources required not to create them but to maintain them.
>
> d.
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Re: [l10n] localisation infrastructure
Posted by "David N. Welton" <da...@dedasys.com>.
"Danny Angus" <da...@apache.org> writes:
> What this means is that the Japanese is available but is not
> authoritative. If we publish Japanese on james.apache.org this
> would be seen as authoritative and MUST therefore to be up-to-date
> and accurate.
What I do is publish very visibly the version that the translation is
based on, as well as the version of the main document, so that users
can compare, and decide for themselves.
--
David N. Welton
Consulting: http://www.dedasys.com/
Personal: http://www.dedasys.com/davidw/
Free Software: http://www.dedasys.com/freesoftware/
Apache Tcl: http://tcl.apache.org/
Re: [l10n] localisation infrastructure
Posted by "David N. Welton" <da...@dedasys.com>.
"Danny Angus" <da...@apache.org> writes:
> What this means is that the Japanese is available but is not
> authoritative. If we publish Japanese on james.apache.org this
> would be seen as authoritative and MUST therefore to be up-to-date
> and accurate.
What I do is publish very visibly the version that the translation is
based on, as well as the version of the main document, so that users
can compare, and decide for themselves.
--
David N. Welton
Consulting: http://www.dedasys.com/
Personal: http://www.dedasys.com/davidw/
Free Software: http://www.dedasys.com/freesoftware/
Apache Tcl: http://tcl.apache.org/
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RE: [l10n] localisation infrastructure
Posted by Danny Angus <da...@apache.org>.
> (a) keeping translations up-to-date,
This is why I'd prefer the status quo, currently we have a Japanese
translation of James site and docs which is "unofficial" but linked from the
James site.
What this means is that the Japanese is available but is not authoritative.
If we publish Japanese on james.apache.org this would be seen as
authoritative and MUST therefore to be up-to-date and accurate.
We have no-one among the James commiters who writes a word of Japanese, and
we couldn't necessarily rely upon Tetsuya being available to translate when
we want him to.
I'm very much in favour of having translations, but concerned about the
resources required not to create them but to maintain them.
d.
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RE: [l10n] localisation infrastructure
Posted by Danny Angus <da...@apache.org>.
> (a) keeping translations up-to-date,
This is why I'd prefer the status quo, currently we have a Japanese
translation of James site and docs which is "unofficial" but linked from the
James site.
What this means is that the Japanese is available but is not authoritative.
If we publish Japanese on james.apache.org this would be seen as
authoritative and MUST therefore to be up-to-date and accurate.
We have no-one among the James commiters who writes a word of Japanese, and
we couldn't necessarily rely upon Tetsuya being available to translate when
we want him to.
I'm very much in favour of having translations, but concerned about the
resources required not to create them but to maintain them.
d.
Re: [l10n] localisation infrastructure
Posted by Tetsuya Kitahata <te...@apache.org>.
Noel, All
(This is cross-posted to community@ and site-dev@james .. sorry)
Well, as far as james website translation (to japanese) is concerned,
I think it gives us at least a *light* upon the consideration of the
internationalization(i18n)/localization(l10n)/multilingualization(m17n).
Please give me more time.
Sincerely,
-- Tetsuya (tetsuya@apache.org) -- AIM# tkitahata
---------------------------------------------------------------------
On Wed, 16 Jul 2003 14:48:34 -0400
(Subject: RE: [l10n] localisation infrastructure (was Re: [i18n] Internationalization project))
"Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com> wrote:
> > I set up the translated mirror site in my company's host
> > (jakarta.terra-intl.com), but if there is *completely
> > consistent infrastracture* in apache.org, I am willing
> > to put the contents on it.
>
> You are asking, I believe, about support for MultiViews. For any given
> page, P, there could be P.<language>, e.g., index.html.en, index.html.jp,
> etc.
>
> Translation would be very much a cross-ASF project that would influence
> other projects, but it wouldn't "own" much. For example, many ASF sites use
> xdocs. Tools like Anakia, Forrest, and Maven are used to generate the final
> output. It seems to me that with respect to web site publishing, you want
> to promote a use standard such that for all P.xml, currently in English,
> there should be P.xml.<language>. Our site publishing tools and scripts
> should then build all of the html pages in the various available languages.
>
> That's the $0.02 version. Details would need to be worked out.
>
> > I imagined how wonderful it would be to set up maling lists
> > of (non-technical)language-specific mailing list in apache.org??
>
> > i18n/l10n ASF TLP can cover mentioned above i imagined.
>
> I think that there seems to be agreement on a mailing list. It is when you
> talk about it as a TLP that you encounter obstacles.
>
> I am not a lawyer, but I'll try to explain to the best of my understanding.
> A TLP has a particular legal role within the ASF. The TLP is provides
> oversight over ASF property, which ties into the legal authority by which
> ASF is able to protect individual contributors in the event of a lawsuit. I
> think that many people think of the TLP as an honor earned, and aren't aware
> of the legal ramifications.
>
> In any event, based upon the preceding, I think you will see that while
> localization should be an ASF-wide effort, it isn't a TLP. For each web
> site (let's consider localizing applications separately), there would have
> to be some tweaking of the site building process, and there would need to be
> parallel sets of pages maintained as the site evolved, but the TLP
> responsible is the site's TLP, e.g., the Jakarta TLP, the James TLP, etc.
> You might have policies, procedures, best practices, etc., but those
> documents could go into an existing repository of shared documents.
>
> Likewise, localizing applications would involve some code change and
> localization resources, and those, too, would belong to that application's
> TLP. *IF* there were some shared code developed for application
> localization, then it might go into Apache Commons if there weren't a better
> place. But that's a bridge to cross when it happens. [And, yes, "Commons
> will be language-agnostic" refers to programming language]
>
> I suggest that external documentation, such as the web sites, represents the
> easiest initial target for translation efforts. It requires no code change
> to the applications, relatively little involvement from developers, and has
> a visible impact.
>
> If there are no objections from the infrastructure team, if you wanted to
> come over to site-dev@james.apache.org, I'm sure that we'd be happy to talk
> to you about seeing if the content from http://james.terra-intl.com/ could
> be integrated into the James site using MultiViews.
>
> A couple of issues that come to mind from what I see of the Jakarta and
> James translations are: (a) keeping translations up-to-date, and (b)
> ensuring that translations say what they are supposed to say.
>
> --- Noel
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: community-unsubscribe@apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: community-help@apache.org
-----------------------------------------------------
Tetsuya Kitahata -- Terra-International, Inc.
E-mail: kitahata@bb.mbn.or.jp : tetsuya@apache.org
http://www.terra-intl.com/
(Apache Jakarta Translation, Japanese)
http://jakarta.terra-intl.com/
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Re: [l10n] localisation infrastructure
Posted by Tetsuya Kitahata <te...@apache.org>.
Noel, All
(This is cross-posted to community@ and site-dev@james .. sorry)
Well, as far as james website translation (to japanese) is concerned,
I think it gives us at least a *light* upon the consideration of the
internationalization(i18n)/localization(l10n)/multilingualization(m17n).
Please give me more time.
Sincerely,
-- Tetsuya (tetsuya@apache.org) -- AIM# tkitahata
---------------------------------------------------------------------
On Wed, 16 Jul 2003 14:48:34 -0400
(Subject: RE: [l10n] localisation infrastructure (was Re: [i18n] Internationalization project))
"Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com> wrote:
> > I set up the translated mirror site in my company's host
> > (jakarta.terra-intl.com), but if there is *completely
> > consistent infrastracture* in apache.org, I am willing
> > to put the contents on it.
>
> You are asking, I believe, about support for MultiViews. For any given
> page, P, there could be P.<language>, e.g., index.html.en, index.html.jp,
> etc.
>
> Translation would be very much a cross-ASF project that would influence
> other projects, but it wouldn't "own" much. For example, many ASF sites use
> xdocs. Tools like Anakia, Forrest, and Maven are used to generate the final
> output. It seems to me that with respect to web site publishing, you want
> to promote a use standard such that for all P.xml, currently in English,
> there should be P.xml.<language>. Our site publishing tools and scripts
> should then build all of the html pages in the various available languages.
>
> That's the $0.02 version. Details would need to be worked out.
>
> > I imagined how wonderful it would be to set up maling lists
> > of (non-technical)language-specific mailing list in apache.org??
>
> > i18n/l10n ASF TLP can cover mentioned above i imagined.
>
> I think that there seems to be agreement on a mailing list. It is when you
> talk about it as a TLP that you encounter obstacles.
>
> I am not a lawyer, but I'll try to explain to the best of my understanding.
> A TLP has a particular legal role within the ASF. The TLP is provides
> oversight over ASF property, which ties into the legal authority by which
> ASF is able to protect individual contributors in the event of a lawsuit. I
> think that many people think of the TLP as an honor earned, and aren't aware
> of the legal ramifications.
>
> In any event, based upon the preceding, I think you will see that while
> localization should be an ASF-wide effort, it isn't a TLP. For each web
> site (let's consider localizing applications separately), there would have
> to be some tweaking of the site building process, and there would need to be
> parallel sets of pages maintained as the site evolved, but the TLP
> responsible is the site's TLP, e.g., the Jakarta TLP, the James TLP, etc.
> You might have policies, procedures, best practices, etc., but those
> documents could go into an existing repository of shared documents.
>
> Likewise, localizing applications would involve some code change and
> localization resources, and those, too, would belong to that application's
> TLP. *IF* there were some shared code developed for application
> localization, then it might go into Apache Commons if there weren't a better
> place. But that's a bridge to cross when it happens. [And, yes, "Commons
> will be language-agnostic" refers to programming language]
>
> I suggest that external documentation, such as the web sites, represents the
> easiest initial target for translation efforts. It requires no code change
> to the applications, relatively little involvement from developers, and has
> a visible impact.
>
> If there are no objections from the infrastructure team, if you wanted to
> come over to site-dev@james.apache.org, I'm sure that we'd be happy to talk
> to you about seeing if the content from http://james.terra-intl.com/ could
> be integrated into the James site using MultiViews.
>
> A couple of issues that come to mind from what I see of the Jakarta and
> James translations are: (a) keeping translations up-to-date, and (b)
> ensuring that translations say what they are supposed to say.
>
> --- Noel
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: community-unsubscribe@apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: community-help@apache.org
-----------------------------------------------------
Tetsuya Kitahata -- Terra-International, Inc.
E-mail: kitahata@bb.mbn.or.jp : tetsuya@apache.org
http://www.terra-intl.com/
(Apache Jakarta Translation, Japanese)
http://jakarta.terra-intl.com/
RE: [l10n] localisation infrastructure (was Re: [i18n] Internationalization project)
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
> I set up the translated mirror site in my company's host
> (jakarta.terra-intl.com), but if there is *completely
> consistent infrastracture* in apache.org, I am willing
> to put the contents on it.
You are asking, I believe, about support for MultiViews. For any given
page, P, there could be P.<language>, e.g., index.html.en, index.html.jp,
etc.
Translation would be very much a cross-ASF project that would influence
other projects, but it wouldn't "own" much. For example, many ASF sites use
xdocs. Tools like Anakia, Forrest, and Maven are used to generate the final
output. It seems to me that with respect to web site publishing, you want
to promote a use standard such that for all P.xml, currently in English,
there should be P.xml.<language>. Our site publishing tools and scripts
should then build all of the html pages in the various available languages.
That's the $0.02 version. Details would need to be worked out.
> I imagined how wonderful it would be to set up maling lists
> of (non-technical)language-specific mailing list in apache.org??
> i18n/l10n ASF TLP can cover mentioned above i imagined.
I think that there seems to be agreement on a mailing list. It is when you
talk about it as a TLP that you encounter obstacles.
I am not a lawyer, but I'll try to explain to the best of my understanding.
A TLP has a particular legal role within the ASF. The TLP is provides
oversight over ASF property, which ties into the legal authority by which
ASF is able to protect individual contributors in the event of a lawsuit. I
think that many people think of the TLP as an honor earned, and aren't aware
of the legal ramifications.
In any event, based upon the preceding, I think you will see that while
localization should be an ASF-wide effort, it isn't a TLP. For each web
site (let's consider localizing applications separately), there would have
to be some tweaking of the site building process, and there would need to be
parallel sets of pages maintained as the site evolved, but the TLP
responsible is the site's TLP, e.g., the Jakarta TLP, the James TLP, etc.
You might have policies, procedures, best practices, etc., but those
documents could go into an existing repository of shared documents.
Likewise, localizing applications would involve some code change and
localization resources, and those, too, would belong to that application's
TLP. *IF* there were some shared code developed for application
localization, then it might go into Apache Commons if there weren't a better
place. But that's a bridge to cross when it happens. [And, yes, "Commons
will be language-agnostic" refers to programming language]
I suggest that external documentation, such as the web sites, represents the
easiest initial target for translation efforts. It requires no code change
to the applications, relatively little involvement from developers, and has
a visible impact.
If there are no objections from the infrastructure team, if you wanted to
come over to site-dev@james.apache.org, I'm sure that we'd be happy to talk
to you about seeing if the content from http://james.terra-intl.com/ could
be integrated into the James site using MultiViews.
A couple of issues that come to mind from what I see of the Jakarta and
James translations are: (a) keeping translations up-to-date, and (b)
ensuring that translations say what they are supposed to say.
--- Noel
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Re: [l10n] localisation infrastructure (was Re: [i18n] Internationalization project)
Posted by Tetsuya Kitahata <te...@apache.org>.
All,
My *strong* intention was (from a year ago) "Why jakarta do not have
an infrastructure for the translators, like http-docs project?"
This is a very simple "riddle".
I set up the translated mirror site in my company's host
(jakarta.terra-intl.com), but if there is *completely consistent
infrastracture* in apache.org, I am willing to put the contents on it.
Very *very* simple motivation.
--
However, on the other hand, i imagined ..." i do not have to stick to
jakarta" .. how about xml.apache.org? how about ws.apache.org?
.... So, my intention was sublimated to the *ASF-wide* infrastructure
issue.
--
At the same time, I imagined how wonderful it would be to
set up maling lists of (non-technical)language-specific mailing list
in apache.org??
i18n/l10n ASF TLP can cover mentioned above i imagined.
Please please take these above into consideration.
--
Note: I am rather a marketing and business oriented person, not developer.
I can not evangelize the efforts of the jakarta/xml/ws projects if we do
not have (the ASF can not provide) the translated pages/user manuals/etc.
For us, "Japanese translated documents". I can not directly tell to the
president of SONY Inc., "in apache.org, there are many useful products
for your company" ... because we lack the translated documents with
accurate information. .......... That's all!
Sincerely,
-- Tetsuya (tetsuya@apache.org)
---------------------------------------------------------------------
On Tue, 15 Jul 2003 19:27:13 -0400
(Subject: RE: [l10n] localisation infrastructure (was Re: [i18n] Internationalization project))
"Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com> wrote:
> > I was thinking on the l10n making "doc commits" and "properties
> > commits", ... themselves, and having means to track *both* the
> > source document (in the original project cvs) and the translated
> > documents (???).
>
> That would be possible if they were invited to have Commit access to a
> project's CVS, e.g., a project's site module. But there is no point in
> having an l10n CVS module to hold all of the ASF's translated documents.
>
> > I signaled clearly that I was speaking about having a translation
> > infrastructure, and that this infrastructure was not simple to develop.
>
> What does the infrastructure consist of, other than a data format, language
> bindings, and the people to make translation happen?
>
> --- Noel
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: community-unsubscribe@apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: community-help@apache.org
-----------------------------------------------------
Tetsuya Kitahata -- Terra-International, Inc.
E-mail: kitahata@bb.mbn.or.jp : tetsuya@apache.org
http://www.terra-intl.com/
(Apache Jakarta Translation, Japanese)
http://jakarta.terra-intl.com/
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RE: [l10n] localisation infrastructure (was Re: [i18n] Internationalization project)
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
> I was thinking on the l10n making "doc commits" and "properties
> commits", ... themselves, and having means to track *both* the
> source document (in the original project cvs) and the translated
> documents (???).
That would be possible if they were invited to have Commit access to a
project's CVS, e.g., a project's site module. But there is no point in
having an l10n CVS module to hold all of the ASF's translated documents.
> I signaled clearly that I was speaking about having a translation
> infrastructure, and that this infrastructure was not simple to develop.
What does the infrastructure consist of, other than a data format, language
bindings, and the people to make translation happen?
--- Noel
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[l10n] localisation infrastructure (was Re: [i18n] Internationalization
project)
Posted by Santiago Gala <sg...@hisitech.com>.
David N. Welton escribió:
> "Roy T. Fielding" <fi...@apache.org> writes:
>
>
>>Personally, I think that creating a project that consists of people
>>that want to work on other projects is a bit weird. Why don't you
>>just ask for a mailing list? The actual commits will have to be
>>made by the specific projects, not by an uber-i18n-committee, so
>>project formation doesn't make any sense.
>
I was thinking on the l10n making "doc commits" and "properties
commits", ... themselves, and having means to track *both* the source
document (in the original project cvs) and the translated documents (???).
>
> i18n is different from l10n - translation. i18n is really a code issue
> and can only be handled at that level.
>
> Other projects with more successful l10n efforts have, on the other
> hand, created efforts centralized not on the code, but on bringing
> together a group of volunteers who are not coders, and who may not
> even be experts on one particular project outside its documentation,
> but who are able to provide translations.
>
> This has the advantage of having one stream of documentation queued up
> for translation, and encourages the growth of a comunity based on
> translation work, something that is less likely for individual
> projects.
>
> Debian developer Steve Langasek provides this bit of info on how the
> FSF works, for comparison:
>
> The GNU TP receives .po files from upstream maintainers,
> announces them to the translation mailing lists, and then each
> .po file is assigned out to an individual translator according
> to interest.
>
This kind of things was what promtpted myself to suggest top level and
bringing the discussion here.
When the original proposal spoke about i18n (and translation in the
narrow scope of i18n: button names, etc.) for the whole jakarta, I
thought that this (the translation part) was mostly independent of
programming language and/or project. I signaled clearly that I was
speaking about having a translation infrastructure, and that this
infrastructure was not simple to develop.
For instance, I was thinking in how to organise technically a repository
so that the translators could be made aware of version and release
control, i.e. translating "patches" instead of losing synchrony or
re-translating whole property files or docs where only a few lines were
added or changed, with the risk of inconsistent translations of old
items across releases. I have no solution for this, except noop, i.e.
each document maintainer tracks herself the source and translation (bad
for replacement of translator and incremental quality of translations).
I think the original proposal was purely about i18n technology for java.
But the discussion drifted into translation of docs, web sites, etc. It
is unfortunate that I (and other people) mixed two differen issues here
and mudded the discussion a bit.
Let's separate the issues back. I changed this thread to be about
translation efforts. Please don't bring code back to this thread.
> That said, being a native english speaker, I've only really observed
> this stuff from afar.
>
> Ciao,
Re: the other comment by Roy T. Fielding:
>> An ASF project exists as an organizational mechanism for releasing software
>> that might otherwise get people sued as individuals. It does not exist
>> for the sake of replacing USENET news or community mailing lists.
This makes worthwhile having either some means to monitor l10n as a
whole, cause project people cannot assess the fidelity or quality of
translations unless they are plurilingual. Again, it does not look
completely off track.
I have more and more the idea that code is about language and
expression, and that there is not that much difference between a
document and a program.
But, and this is why I asked for the discussion in community, I don't
have clear ideas on how to make sense of this.
Regards
--
Santiago Gala
High Sierra Technology, S.L. (http://hisitech.com)
http://memojo.com?page=SantiagoGalaBlog
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Re: [i18n] Internationalization project
Posted by "David N. Welton" <da...@dedasys.com>.
"Roy T. Fielding" <fi...@apache.org> writes:
> Personally, I think that creating a project that consists of people
> that want to work on other projects is a bit weird. Why don't you
> just ask for a mailing list? The actual commits will have to be
> made by the specific projects, not by an uber-i18n-committee, so
> project formation doesn't make any sense.
i18n is different from l10n - translation. i18n is really a code issue
and can only be handled at that level.
Other projects with more successful l10n efforts have, on the other
hand, created efforts centralized not on the code, but on bringing
together a group of volunteers who are not coders, and who may not
even be experts on one particular project outside its documentation,
but who are able to provide translations.
This has the advantage of having one stream of documentation queued up
for translation, and encourages the growth of a comunity based on
translation work, something that is less likely for individual
projects.
Debian developer Steve Langasek provides this bit of info on how the
FSF works, for comparison:
The GNU TP receives .po files from upstream maintainers,
announces them to the translation mailing lists, and then each
.po file is assigned out to an individual translator according
to interest.
That said, being a native english speaker, I've only really observed
this stuff from afar.
Ciao,
--
David N. Welton
Consulting: http://www.dedasys.com/
Personal: http://www.dedasys.com/davidw/
Free Software: http://www.dedasys.com/freesoftware/
Apache Tcl: http://tcl.apache.org/
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Re: [i18n] Internationalization project
Posted by David Reid <da...@jetnet.co.uk>.
> > Fair enough. So basically if you have an innovative idea/concept don't
> > bother calling the ASF?
>
> What is innovative about i18n? Come on David, put your fricken thinking
> cap on on stop acting like a baby. All code changes have to be approved
> by the project responsible for the code. Likewise for documentation.
Now where is my rattle???
> What purpose does the i18n project perform that is not already covered
> by the existing project mailing lists? Is it going to develop new
> i18n technology or just discuss things related to all of our projects.
>
> If the former, then the project had better come up with a decent goal
> and an explanation of how it is going to create this new thing, after
> which we can talk about going through incubator on a concrete level.
Roy, I think that if people come forward and say "Hi, we think this is a
cool idea..." then we should listen to them. What I didn't know, and
therefore what i went to find out, was where they go next. I expected to
find some more positive ideas and some support for investigating the idea.
Rather than simply being negative you've done what you have developed a
habit of doing which is come back with suggestions that don't fit your
initial reaction - which in this case offer an approach that is basically
what I was enquiring about!
> If the latter, then it is a mailing list and not an ASF project.
> The ASF hosts many such mailing lists, including this one.
I don't think anyone is contradicting that and I'm certainly not.
However, when people come up with the germ of an idea there isn't an obvious
start point. If we're to take something positive from this then it should be
that we need to advertise where the start point is for new ideas and get the
incubator project to publish some more details on what it's all about and
what it's not meant to do.
It never ceases to amaze me how simple discussions get so blown out of
proportion...
david
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Re: [i18n] Internationalization project
Posted by Tetsuya Kitahata <te...@apache.org>.
On Tue, 15 Jul 2003 19:27:06 -0400
(Subject: RE: [i18n] Internationalization project)
"Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com> wrote:
> As Thom May said, "the commits will have to be performed by individual
> projects, a place for translation teams to coordinate, develop best
> practises and also recruit new translators would be, I suspect, very
> welcome." Sounds like an internationalization@commons.apache.org mailing
> list waiting to happen.
I did not notice the existence of the Apache Commons Project... ;-)
Sounds good.
Especially, this line:
> o The Commons will be language-agnostic.
(In this line's "language" means technical-language, right?)
I hope this can create a stir in the internationalization/localization
problems which lie in apache.org as a whole.
Sincerely,
-- Tetsuya (tetsuya@apache.org)
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Re: [m17n] mailinglist (Re: [i18n] Internationalization project)
Posted by Tetsuya Kitahata <te...@apache.org>.
On Tue, 29 Jul 2003 22:59:24 +0100
robert burrell donkin <rd...@apache.org> wrote:
> > However, at the same time, this goes for the English documents, too.
> > (By the way, really the jakarta PMC is reviewing whole jakarta
> > subprojects' websites even written in english?)
> this is one of the reasons why subprojects are being encouraged to
> move out and why the size of the jakarta pmc has been increased.
> between the pmc members there's hopefully enough supervision of
> commit emails. the other safe guard is that only a few people are
> trusted with rights to daedelus and most of these are in the jakarta
> pmc.
I see. Thank you for the explanation. (This was one of the puzzling
things for me, to tell the truth)
> the real problem is that these methods of supervision (watching
> commit emails and guarding updates of the live site) only work when
> the supervisor can read what's said.
Make sense.
> > This means that there are many *reviewer*s who have good eyes.
> as well as many good eyes, an efficient system for feedback is also
> need so that problems can quickly be fixed.
Yep. So, *improvement of user-friendliness* is important for every
projects/subprojects.
Also (from my observation), *improvement of committer-friendliness*
might be also important. For example, how to make *shortcut* to
deal with many e-mails efficiently, etc etc.
> > 2.
> > As Noel has pointed out, I also agree with setting up mailing list
> > for it as a first step.
> +1
I am still wondering which might be better,
i18n@commons or m17n@commons or l10n@commons :-)
Also, this creation can be announced at announce@apache.
> > I am thinking of the would-be-mailing-list:
> > 1. each projects' committers can post to the list
> > 2. each projects' committers can ask to the list with english file,
> > "Hi, I prepared the resource of the translation. Can
> > anyone translate this and perform the native2ascii?"
> this would also be very, very useful for requests to pmcs which are
> not in english.
Yep, I found that this could be achieved by the remote
moderation of the mailing list (run by ezmlm).
> > 3. the subscriber of the list directly (or non-directly)
> > post to the correspond lists or post to the list.
> > 4. The main topic will be the issues of i18n, l10n, m17n
> > 5. more to come.... (docs translation etc.)
> sounds good. how can we make this happen?
In the next month, I think. I will ask many people's approvals
for this plan via upcoming "The Apache Newsletter". :-)
(And ApacheWiki[?] :-)
-- Tetsuya (tetsuya@apache.org)
P.S. Please write articles of your projects (and Readers' Voice :-) at
http://nagoya.apache.org/wiki/apachewiki.cgi?ApacheNewsletterDrafts/Issue1
for the upcoming Apache Newsletter! >> all
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Re: [m17n] mailinglist (Re: [i18n] Internationalization project)
Posted by robert burrell donkin <rd...@apache.org>.
On Friday, July 18, 2003, at 11:40 AM, Tetsuya Kitahata wrote:
<snip>
> Very good points I think.
>
> 1. Legal risk
> 2. where to start as a first step
<snip>
> 1.
>
> Sure, I think if the ASF hosts the translated websites, we (sorry: I
> prefer to use *WE* when indicationg the ASF) have to think about the
> <QUALITY> of translations. If *non-preferable* words for each languages
> are there, it will be very risky (e.g. secret language, erotic).
>
> However, at the same time, this goes for the English documents, too.
> (By the way, really the jakarta PMC is reviewing whole jakarta
> subprojects' websites even written in english?)
this is one of the reasons why subprojects are being encouraged to move
out and why the size of the jakarta pmc has been increased. between the
pmc members there's hopefully enough supervision of commit emails. the
other safe guard is that only a few people are trusted with rights to
daedelus and most of these are in the jakarta pmc.
the real problem is that these methods of supervision (watching commit
emails and guarding updates of the live site) only work when the
supervisor can read what's said.
> So, we do not have to be nervous so much. "A Patchy" spirits can solve
> the problems. I can not see precise statistics, however, Japan is the
> third country of the page views of apache.org websites, IIRC.
> (I saw the statistics of Jakarta-Cactus the other day, but I forgot the
> URL .. if anyone can give us the precise statistics, please let me know)
>
> This means that there are many *reviewer*s who have good eyes.
as well as many good eyes, an efficient system for feedback is also need
so that problems can quickly be fixed.
> 2.
>
> As Noel has pointed out, I also agree with setting up mailing list
> for it as a first step.
+1
<snip>
> I am thinking of the would-be-mailing-list:
> 1. each projects' committers can post to the list
> 2. each projects' committers can ask to the list with english file,
> "Hi, I prepared the resource of the translation. Can
> anyone translate this and perform the native2ascii?"
this would also be very, very useful for requests to pmcs which are not in
english.
> 3. the subscriber of the list directly (or non-directly)
> post to the correspond lists or post to the list.
> 4. The main topic will be the issues of i18n, l10n, m17n
> 5. more to come.... (docs translation etc.)
sounds good. how can we make this happen?
- robert
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[m17n] mailinglist (Re: [i18n] Internationalization project)
Posted by Tetsuya Kitahata <te...@apache.org>.
On Thu, 17 Jul 2003 21:31:10 +0100
(Subject: Re: [i18n] Internationalization project)
robert burrell donkin <rd...@apache.org> wrote:
> IMHO a major stumbling block is that a pmc cannot adequately
> supervise the committing of patches unless they there are sufficient
> fluent speakers of the language. but, how can a pool of trusted
> translators for a project grow if no one can commit their patches?
> hosting a japanese version of jakarta on the main apache site would
> be very cool but without a number of japanese speaking pmc members,
> this would seem to me to put the ASF at legal risk.
> i think that a central mechanism is needed so that a pool of
> translators trusted by the ASF can develop. if a management committee
> for translations is out of the question then maybe a mailing list
> would at least be a start.
Very good points I think.
1. Legal risk
2. where to start as a first step
3. how to manage
1.
Sure, I think if the ASF hosts the translated websites, we (sorry: I
prefer to use *WE* when indicationg the ASF) have to think about the
<QUALITY> of translations. If *non-preferable* words for each languages
are there, it will be very risky (e.g. secret language, erotic).
However, at the same time, this goes for the English documents, too.
(By the way, really the jakarta PMC is reviewing whole jakarta
subprojects' websites even written in english?)
So, we do not have to be nervous so much. "A Patchy" spirits can solve
the problems. I can not see precise statistics, however, Japan is the
third country of the page views of apache.org websites, IIRC.
(I saw the statistics of Jakarta-Cactus the other day, but I forgot the
URL .. if anyone can give us the precise statistics, please let me know)
This means that there are many *reviewer*s who have good eyes.
2.
As Noel has pointed out, I also agree with setting up mailing list
for it as a first step. In this mailing list, I think we can recruit
the appropriate translators for each languages.
Then, the <project> (TLP) can launch out after that. So, we can assure
the quality of the translations and can offer the best infrastructure
for the translators. This leads the growth of the ASF more and more
and make the ASF more marketer-friendly. (I mean, evangelist-friendly)
We have the precursor: HTTPD-DOCS project.
3.
<2> mentioned above will solve this, and gives the more wider
insights into this.
> > After some time, they'll probably require some tool support and
> > other technical infrastructure, which will hopefully grow in parallel.
>
> +1
+1
> - robert
I am thinking of the would-be-mailing-list:
1. each projects' committers can post to the list
2. each projects' committers can ask to the list with english file,
"Hi, I prepared the resource of the translation. Can
anyone translate this and perform the native2ascii?"
3. the subscriber of the list directly (or non-directly)
post to the correspond lists or post to the list.
4. The main topic will be the issues of i18n, l10n, m17n
5. more to come.... (docs translation etc.)
If we can, we cover a wide range of the sourceforge projects etc.
Most of the SourceForge Projects lack the translators, needless to say.
(So, I can not use them, because they are all written in english or
latin1 languages)
Sincerely,
-- Tetsuya (tetsuya@apache.org) -- AIM# tkitahata
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Re: [i18n] Internationalization project
Posted by robert burrell donkin <rd...@apache.org>.
On Wednesday, July 16, 2003, at 05:03 PM, Joerg Pietschmann wrote:
> Noel J. Bergman wrote:
>> I think that "bringing together a group of volunteers who are not coders,
>> and who may not even be experts on one particular project outside its
>> documentation, but who are able to provide translations" would be great,
>> but
>> that's not a project.
>
> I think one part of the "infrastructure" would be a mailing list
> or a set of lists where translators hang out, especially if their
> favorite projects don't have anything to translate at the moment,
> and where projects without dedicated translators can announce
> needs for translation and recruit people, and where the translator
> community can build itself and recruit new members.
+1
IMHO a major stumbling block is that a pmc cannot adequately supervise the
committing of patches unless they there are sufficient fluent speakers of
the language. but, how can a pool of trusted translators for a project
grow if no one can commit their patches?
hosting a japanese version of jakarta on the main apache site would be
very cool but without a number of japanese speaking pmc members, this
would seem to me to put the ASF at legal risk.
i think that a central mechanism is needed so that a pool of translators
trusted by the ASF can develop. if a management committee for translations
is out of the question then maybe a mailing list would at least be a start.
> After some time, they'll probably require some tool support and
> other technical infrastructure, which will hopefully grow in parallel.
+1
- robert
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RE: [i18n] Internationalization project
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
Joerg Pietschmann:
> Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> > I think that "bringing together a group of volunteers who are not
coders,
> > and who may not even be experts on one particular project outside its
> > documentation, but who are able to provide translations" would be great,
but
> > that's not a project.
> I think one part of the "infrastructure" would be a mailing list
> or a set of lists where translators hang out
I think that there is at least some agreement for a mailing list. If there
is, then it can be proposed to infrastructure@, and created promptly.
> After some time, they'll probably require some tool support and
> other technical infrastructure
Possibly. But, for example, any changes to Mavan, Forrest, Anakia, etc.,
would be in those projects. [See my message to Tetsuya Kitahata posted at
the same time as this]
--- Noel
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Re: [i18n] Internationalization project
Posted by Joerg Pietschmann <pi...@apache.org>.
Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> I think that "bringing together a group of volunteers who are not coders,
> and who may not even be experts on one particular project outside its
> documentation, but who are able to provide translations" would be great, but
> that's not a project.
I think one part of the "infrastructure" would be a mailing list
or a set of lists where translators hang out, especially if their
favorite projects don't have anything to translate at the moment,
and where projects without dedicated translators can announce
needs for translation and recruit people, and where the translator
community can build itself and recruit new members.
After some time, they'll probably require some tool support and
other technical infrastructure, which will hopefully grow in parallel.
J.Pietschmann
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RE: [i18n] Internationalization project
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
If the purpose is to come up with a common XML schema (for the sake of
discussion) and common tools, I don't see it as being a TLP. Each project
will need to have its own resources using the common format and tools.
Does a DTD/schema and a set of common language bindings/utility libraries
warrant a TLP? It seems to me that for any application the application's
resources and code calling the common libraries would be in that project's
repositories. Why not use http://commons.apache.org/? Isn't that why the
latter exists? Let's see:
o Commons is a parent of reusable code projects.
o The Commons will be language-agnostic.
o Projects that are "in scope" are defined as:
- Existing components that are, or would be, useful to multiple
projects
- Reusable libraries
- Components that do not fit cleanly into any other top-level
project, but they do fit the goals of Commons.
Sounds like Apache Commons it is for the very few pieces of shared material.
I think that "bringing together a group of volunteers who are not coders,
and who may not even be experts on one particular project outside its
documentation, but who are able to provide translations" would be great, but
that's not a project. There is certainly a nexus of effort, but the work
product(s) belong elsewhere.
As Thom May said, "the commits will have to be performed by individual
projects, a place for translation teams to coordinate, develop best
practises and also recruit new translators would be, I suspect, very
welcome." Sounds like an internationalization@commons.apache.org mailing
list waiting to happen.
Please note: I am American, therefore I don't even speak fluent Pig Latin.
;-) [OK, I used to speak Spanish and Hebrew, but am too many years out of
practice].
--- Noel
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Re: [i18n] Internationalization project
Posted by "Roy T. Fielding" <fi...@apache.org>.
> Fair enough. So basically if you have an innovative idea/concept don't
> bother calling the ASF?
What is innovative about i18n? Come on David, put your fricken thinking
cap on on stop acting like a baby. All code changes have to be approved
by the project responsible for the code. Likewise for documentation.
What purpose does the i18n project perform that is not already covered
by the existing project mailing lists? Is it going to develop new
i18n technology or just discuss things related to all of our projects.
If the former, then the project had better come up with a decent goal
and an explanation of how it is going to create this new thing, after
which we can talk about going through incubator on a concrete level.
If the latter, then it is a mailing list and not an ASF project.
The ASF hosts many such mailing lists, including this one.
....Roy
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Re: [i18n] Internationalization project
Posted by David Reid <da...@jetnet.co.uk>.
> i18n isn't a code project. It isn't even an documentation project.
> In fact, there doesn't even seem to be any reason for it to be a
> project.
> Why would incubator have anything to do with it?
You'll forgive me is I find that a somewhat shallower attitude than I may
have expected :(
> I wasn't present for your conversation, but I am not at all surprised
> by the result.
>
> Personally, I think that creating a project that consists of people that
> want to work on other projects is a bit weird. Why don't you just ask
> for a mailing list? The actual commits will have to be made by the
> specific projects, not by an uber-i18n-committee, so project formation
> doesn't make any sense.
>
> An ASF project exists as an organizational mechanism for releasing
> software
> that might otherwise get people sued as individuals. It does not exist
> for the sake of replacing USENET news or community mailing lists.
Fair enough. So basically if you have an innovative idea/concept don't
bother calling the ASF?
david
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Re: [i18n] Internationalization project
Posted by "Roy T. Fielding" <fi...@apache.org>.
> OK, well I had a discussion last night with some folks from the
> incubator
> PMC and frankly it upset me. It was one of those evenings when you
> realise
> how crap organisations can be and makes you wonder why you bother with
> them
> :( I really wasn't impressed.
i18n isn't a code project. It isn't even an documentation project.
In fact, there doesn't even seem to be any reason for it to be a
project.
Why would incubator have anything to do with it?
I wasn't present for your conversation, but I am not at all surprised
by the result.
Personally, I think that creating a project that consists of people that
want to work on other projects is a bit weird. Why don't you just ask
for a mailing list? The actual commits will have to be made by the
specific projects, not by an uber-i18n-committee, so project formation
doesn't make any sense.
An ASF project exists as an organizational mechanism for releasing
software
that might otherwise get people sued as individuals. It does not exist
for the sake of replacing USENET news or community mailing lists.
....Roy
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Re: [i18n] Internationalization project
Posted by David Reid <da...@jetnet.co.uk>.
OK, well I had a discussion last night with some folks from the incubator
PMC and frankly it upset me. It was one of those evenings when you realise
how crap organisations can be and makes you wonder why you bother with them
:( I really wasn't impressed.
In fact to give you an idea, the overriding suggestion that came out was
(paraphrased) "go to sourceforge and when you have a community and code then
we'll think about adding you to the incubator".
So, basically that's the only option that the esteemed ASF incubuator
project appears to offer.
I'd suggest therefore that you take the discussion back to JG and work on it
there as at least you seem to have some peope who are interested in it there
:(
I wish I could bring myself to be more enthusiastic, but I really don't see
the point of having the incubator at this moment in time.
david
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert Simpson" <rs...@verizon.net>
To: <Co...@Apache.org>
Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2003 1:18 PM
Subject: Re: [i18n] Internationalization project
>
> David - sorry - my intention wasn't to invite people to Jakarta General
from here, but to see where it should be moved, somewhere "above" JG, as
indicated by the discussions there. If this is to possibly become a
top-level Apache project, where should it be discussed? (Up to now, I've
primarily been following Jakarta discussions, since that's the only code
I've contributed to so far).
>
> Andrew - sorry - I hadn't realized that the Community list wasn't open to
everyone. If we are to keep the discussion on a list that is open to
everyone, where would that be?
>
> TIA.
> Robert Simpson
>
> David Reid wrote:
>
> > Robert,
> >
> > Thanks for cross-porting, but please don't try to invite people to
> > jakarta-general@ from this list! This list has a wider audience and as
any
> > internationalization project will fail in it's objectives unless it is
used
> > across the entire of the ASF the community@ list would appear to make
more
> > sense for these discussions. The fact that the discussion rose to this
list
> > from the jakarta-general@ list is a good sign of it's intended
direction, so
> > please don't try to reverse that now.The aim of community@ was to foster
a
> > sense of greater community within the ASF, not to provide a recuiting
ground
> > for jakarta-general@ or any other such list :)
> >
> > I really don't think placing such a project anywhere but the incubator
makes
> > sense...
> >
> > david
>
>
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>
>
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Re: [i18n] Internationalization project
Posted by Robert Simpson <rs...@verizon.net>.
David - sorry - my intention wasn't to invite people to Jakarta General from here, but to see where it should be moved, somewhere "above" JG, as indicated by the discussions there. If this is to possibly become a top-level Apache project, where should it be discussed? (Up to now, I've primarily been following Jakarta discussions, since that's the only code I've contributed to so far).
Andrew - sorry - I hadn't realized that the Community list wasn't open to everyone. If we are to keep the discussion on a list that is open to everyone, where would that be?
TIA.
Robert Simpson
David Reid wrote:
> Robert,
>
> Thanks for cross-porting, but please don't try to invite people to
> jakarta-general@ from this list! This list has a wider audience and as any
> internationalization project will fail in it's objectives unless it is used
> across the entire of the ASF the community@ list would appear to make more
> sense for these discussions. The fact that the discussion rose to this list
> from the jakarta-general@ list is a good sign of it's intended direction, so
> please don't try to reverse that now.The aim of community@ was to foster a
> sense of greater community within the ASF, not to provide a recuiting ground
> for jakarta-general@ or any other such list :)
>
> I really don't think placing such a project anywhere but the incubator makes
> sense...
>
> david
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Re: [i18n] Internationalization project
Posted by David Reid <da...@jetnet.co.uk>.
Robert,
Thanks for cross-porting, but please don't try to invite people to
jakarta-general@ from this list! This list has a wider audience and as any
internationalization project will fail in it's objectives unless it is used
across the entire of the ASF the community@ list would appear to make more
sense for these discussions. The fact that the discussion rose to this list
from the jakarta-general@ list is a good sign of it's intended direction, so
please don't try to reverse that now.The aim of community@ was to foster a
sense of greater community within the ASF, not to provide a recuiting ground
for jakarta-general@ or any other such list :)
I really don't think placing such a project anywhere but the incubator makes
sense...
david
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Re: [i18n] Internationalization project
Posted by "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org>.
In my plan this gets delayed until Tetsuya qualifies for membership ;-)
-Andy
On 7/14/03 4:37 PM, "robert burrell donkin"
<ro...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
> i personally think that this is an issue that needs to be discussed both
> inside and outside.
>
> andrew is right there needs to be a discussion involving anyone outside
> apache with opinions and experience they'd be willing to contribute but i
> also agree with taking part of the discussion to community@apache. not
> only do the issues raised cut across projects but also unless some members
> step up and offer leadership, this project will never get off the ground.
>
> - robert
>
> On Monday, July 14, 2003, at 02:50 PM, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
>
>> -1 this would exclude possible interested international folks. We should
>> keep the discussion on a list open to everyone!
>>
>> On 7/14/03 2:21 AM, "Robert Simpson" <rs...@verizon.net> wrote:
>>
>>> To: Community@Apache.org
>>>
>>> On the Jakarta General list, we've been discussing the possibility of
>>> introducing an "Internationalization" project into incubation. It seems
>>> the
>>> consensus is that it should be targeted for a top-level
>>> programming-language-independent and spoken-language-independent Apache
>>> project, rather a Jakarta subproject.
>>>
>>> (To anyone on the JG list: I used a blind CC so that this is the only
>>> message
>>> on Community@Apache.org which should be CCd to JG. You can set up
>>> message
>>> filters on "[i18n]" on both lists to follow the discussions in either
>>> place....)
>>>
>>> A preliminary organization of the project based on the JG discussions is
>>> included in my message below.
>>>
>>> I don't mind "spearheading" the incubation myself. Is there anyone else
>>> interested whom we can add to the list of contributors (see A through F
>>> below)? Is there anything else we should consider before requesting
>>> entry
>>> into incubation?
>>>
>>> TIA.
>>> Robert Simpson
>>>
>>> -------- Original Message --------
>>> Subject: Re: [i18n] Internationalization subproject sponsor?
>>> Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2003 21:32:36 +0100
>>> From: robert burrell donkin <ro...@blueyonder.co.uk>
>>> Reply-To: "Jakarta General List" <ge...@jakarta.apache.org>
>>> To: "Jakarta General List" <ge...@jakarta.apache.org>
>>>
>>> On Monday, July 7, 2003, at 01:14 PM, Robert Simpson wrote:
>>>
>>> <snip>
>>>
>>>> I am surprised there isn't more interest in a common
>>>> internationalization
>>>> framework within Jakarta. But then I have been assuming that there are
>>>> non-English-speaking "members" in Jakarta, not just "committers" and
>>>> other users of the code.
>>>
>>> i think that there several jakarta members who are not native english
>>> speakers. as Tetsuya Kitahata pointed out there are far fewer members
>>> than
>>> committers and i'm not sure whether there are any jakarta members who are
>>> native speakers of non-latin languages. it takes a lot of energy to
>>> spearhead an incubation and it's a big commitment for a member to make.
>>>
>>> but i don't think that the member would have to come from jakarta (even
>>> if
>>> that's where those people involved with the product hope that it will end
>>> up). i wonder whether you might have more luck finding a sponsor over in
>>> xml-land. since many of their products are multi-language a common i18n
>>> framework may be of more pressing importance than here. i also have an
>>> idea that there are members whose native languages are non-latin.
>>>
>>> i like the idea of an apache wide i18n project along the lines suggested
>>> by Tetsuya Kitahata.
>>>
>>> - robert
>>>
>>> -------- Original Message --------
>>> Subject: Re: [i18n] Internationalization subproject
>>> Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2003 08:55:00 -0400
>>> Reply-To: "Jakarta General List"
>>> <ge...@jakarta.apache.org>,Rob.Simpson@iToolSet.com
>>> To: Jakarta General List <ge...@jakarta.apache.org>
>>> References: <20...@jarre.pair.com>
>>> <20...@apache.org> <3F...@verizon.net>
>>> <3F...@hisitech.com> <3F...@verizon.net>
>>> <3F...@hisitech.com>
>>>
>>> WRT Santiago's point about keeping the different translations in sync,
>>> the
>>> solution is to have each word/phrase in (1) or each section in (2)
>>> identified
>>> in the XML with a version number. Then it would be a simple matter to
>>> have a
>>> program compare the two documents, and indicate where the translation
>>> needs to
>>> be updated (the program could even provide an initial translation of the
>>> section via machine translation, to be refined by the human
>>> translator). The
>>> XML should also indicate who made each change and whether a change was
>>> prompted by a need to change the document (additions to content, for
>>> example)
>>> or as a translation of another version. That way, no particular
>>> translation
>>> would have to be the "primary" document, and any conflicts could be
>>> identified
>>> and handled. For example, a Spanish-speaking person could add a missing
>>> section to the Spanish translation of a document, and that section could
>>> then
>>> be translated back into the original and other translations. This
>>> arrangement
>>> could also handle "proposed" additions (the XML equivalent of "I, a
>>> Spanish
>>> translator, propose to add a new section here"), which could be
>>> commented on
>>> (ex: "that section would be better placed over there") and/or voted on by
>>> translators of other languages, etc....
>>>
>>> Am I getting the feeling right that the Internationalization project
>>> would be
>>> ultimately targeted for a top level, multiple-programming-language Apache
>>> project? If so, I think the best approach would be to get the Java
>>> support
>>> done first, to demonstrate its viability and usefulness. But still,
>>> from the
>>> start, the intent should be to design with language-independence as the
>>> ultimate goal.
>>>
>>> So, in summary, the organization of the project would be:
>>>
>>> 1. code common to both (1) and (2)
>>> 1.1 code
>>> This would include any code that supports both (2) and (3), such as
>>> the code
>>> to do comparisons between translations
>>> 1.1.1 any programming-language-neutral stuff (configuration files, XML,
>>> etc)
>>> 1.1.2 Java
>>> 1.1.2.1 source code
>>> 1.1.2.1.1 source code contributors (committers)
>>> 1.1.3+ other programming languages, similarly
>>>
>>> 2. user interface internationalization (words and phrases)
>>> 2.1 code
>>> This would include the code to generate programming-language-specific
>>> resources, and provide access to those resources
>>> 2.1.1 any programming-language-neutral stuff (configuration files, XML,
>>> etc)
>>> 2.1.2 Java
>>> 2.1.2.1 source code
>>> 2.1.2.1.1 source code contributors (committers)
>>> 2.1.2.2 resources (translations, generated from XML)
>>> 2.1.3+ other programming languages, similarly
>>> 2.1.3+.1 source code for other programming languages
>>> 2.1.3+.2 resources for other programming languages (translations,
>>> generated
>>> from XML)
>>> 2.2 language translations (programming-language-neutral)
>>> 2.2.1 any spoken-language-neutral stuff (all-language distribution files,
>>> JUnit tests for file verification, etc)
>>> 2.2.2 English language translations (initial "source" translations)
>>> 2.2.2.1 XML format
>>> 2.2.2.1.1 English language translators (committers)
>>> 2.2.2.2 English user references
>>> 2.2.2.2.1 XML formatted user reference (generated, XSL-FO?)
>>> 2.2.2.2.2 HTML formatted user reference (generated, possibly with a
>>> doclet)
>>> 2.2.2.2.3 PDF formatted user reference (generated, possibly from XML user
>>> reference using Apache XML-FOP)
>>> 2.2.3+ other spoken languages, similarly
>>>
>>> 3. internationalization of complete documents
>>> 3.1 code
>>> This would include code or tools (possibly making use of other Apache
>>> code)
>>> to generate specific document file formats
>>> 3.1.1 any programming-language-neutral stuff (configuration files, XML,
>>> etc)
>>> 3.1.2 Java
>>> 3.1.2.1 source code
>>> 3.1.2.1.1 source code contributors (committers)
>>> 3.1.3+ other programming languages, similarly
>>> 3.1.3+.1 source code for other programming languages
>>> 3.2 language translations (programming-language-neutral)
>>> 3.2.1 any spoken-language-neutral stuff (all-language distribution files,
>>> JUnit tests for file verification, etc)
>>> 3.2.2 English language translations (initial "source" translations)
>>> 3.2.2.1 XML format (based on XSL-FO?)
>>> 3.2.2.1.1 English language translators (committers)
>>> 3.2.2.2 HTML format (generated)
>>> 3.2.2.3 PDF format (generated, possibly using Apache XML-FOP)
>>> 3.2.2.4+ other document file formats (generated)
>>> 3.2.3+ other spoken languages, similarly
>>>
>>> The main difference between sections (2) and (3) is that (2) is organized
>>> primarily by programming language, with the programming-language-specific
>>> resources as part of the first subsection (2.1) keeping the second
>>> section
>>> (2.2) programming-language-neutral, while (3) is organized primarily by
>>> spoken
>>> language, with the programming-language-independent file formats as part
>>> of
>>> the second subsection (3.2), keeping them separate from the
>>> programming-language-specific stuff in the first subsection (3.1).
>>>
>>> I'd be willing to work on the common code and user interface code, and it
>>> looks like there is a good starting list for the language translators.
>>> Is
>>> there anyone willing to drive the second part, the internationalization
>>> of
>>> complete documents?
>>>
>>> I can also be update the proposal as indicated above, and then let it be
>>> reviewed/modified here, or in CVS somewhere. In your replies to the
>>> mailing
>>> list, please indicate in which of the following ways you might be
>>> willing to
>>> contribute:
>>>
>>> A) committer for code for internationalization of user interface and
>>> possibly
>>> common code
>>> B) committer for code for internationalization of complete documents and
>>> possibly common code
>>> C) language translation (either or both UI or documents)
>>> D) sponsor entry of Java version of Internationalization subproject into
>>> Jakarta
>>> E) incorporate internationalization into another Apache/Jakarta
>>> sub/project
>>> (please specify)
>>> F) none of the above
>>>
>>> Robert Simpson
>>>
>>> Santiago Gala wrote:
>>>
>>>> Robert Simpson escribió:
>>>>> Santiago Gala,
>>>>>
>>>>> As far a document and resource translation, I'm not sure if you are
>>>>> referring to machine translation, or human translation. My focus has
>>>>> been on human translation, mainly because machine translation is
>>>>> still pretty far from perfect. There could be APIs for interfaces to
>>>>> various machine translation tools, such as Systransoft, but I think
>>>>> that should be a later, secondary priority. Even if there was
>>>>> support for machine translation, I would prefer that it could be
>>>>> augmented by human proofreading and revision. So it's probably just
>>>>> as easy to let the language translator use whatever machine
>>>>> translation tool s/he prefers.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> David Taylor has already anwered WRT code.
>>>>
>>>> I was thinking mostly about having a "pool" of people who can translate
>>>> and are more or less "cross project". For instance, I can translate
>>>> English to Spanish, and I'm a committer in Jetspeed, but I could also
>>>> translate, say, parts of the tomcat documents that I'm reading, or some
>>>> XML stuff I'm interested into. Or even docs for Apache modules.
>>>>
>>>> The good part is that it would help the whole community, both WRT
>>>> translation efforts and WRT crosspollination, as these kind of people
>>>> will "see" beyond their small project(s). Also, it oculd bring new kinds
>>>> of developers (Today I heard in the radio, coming home, that 72% od
>>>> people in Spain cannot speak *any* foreign language. We are a bad sample
>>>> but in most of Europe, less than 50% people speaks English.)
>>>>
>>>> The problem is that I can't see clearly how to implement such a
>>>> crosscutting service/project, in ways that would not be difficult to
>>>> impossible to manage. Specially since we should keep source control on
>>>> both the original doc and the translations in sync.
>>>>
>>>> Any ideas?
>>>>
>>>> Regards
>>>> --
>>>> Santiago Gala
>>>> High Sierra Technology, S.L. (http://hisitech.com)
>>>> http://memojo.com?page=SantiagoGalaBlog
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@jakarta.apache.org
>>>
>>
>> --
>> Andrew C. Oliver
>> http://www.superlinksoftware.com/poi.jsp
>> Custom enhancements and Commercial Implementation for Jakarta POI
>>
>> http://jakarta.apache.org/poi
>> For Java and Excel, Got POI?
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@jakarta.apache.org
>>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@jakarta.apache.org
>
--
Andrew C. Oliver
http://www.superlinksoftware.com/poi.jsp
Custom enhancements and Commercial Implementation for Jakarta POI
http://jakarta.apache.org/poi
For Java and Excel, Got POI?
---------------------------------------------------------------------
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For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@jakarta.apache.org
Re: [i18n] Internationalization project
Posted by robert burrell donkin <ro...@blueyonder.co.uk>.
i personally think that this is an issue that needs to be discussed both
inside and outside.
andrew is right there needs to be a discussion involving anyone outside
apache with opinions and experience they'd be willing to contribute but i
also agree with taking part of the discussion to community@apache. not
only do the issues raised cut across projects but also unless some members
step up and offer leadership, this project will never get off the ground.
- robert
On Monday, July 14, 2003, at 02:50 PM, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
> -1 this would exclude possible interested international folks. We should
> keep the discussion on a list open to everyone!
>
> On 7/14/03 2:21 AM, "Robert Simpson" <rs...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>> To: Community@Apache.org
>>
>> On the Jakarta General list, we've been discussing the possibility of
>> introducing an "Internationalization" project into incubation. It seems
>> the
>> consensus is that it should be targeted for a top-level
>> programming-language-independent and spoken-language-independent Apache
>> project, rather a Jakarta subproject.
>>
>> (To anyone on the JG list: I used a blind CC so that this is the only
>> message
>> on Community@Apache.org which should be CCd to JG. You can set up
>> message
>> filters on "[i18n]" on both lists to follow the discussions in either
>> place....)
>>
>> A preliminary organization of the project based on the JG discussions is
>> included in my message below.
>>
>> I don't mind "spearheading" the incubation myself. Is there anyone else
>> interested whom we can add to the list of contributors (see A through F
>> below)? Is there anything else we should consider before requesting
>> entry
>> into incubation?
>>
>> TIA.
>> Robert Simpson
>>
>> -------- Original Message --------
>> Subject: Re: [i18n] Internationalization subproject sponsor?
>> Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2003 21:32:36 +0100
>> From: robert burrell donkin <ro...@blueyonder.co.uk>
>> Reply-To: "Jakarta General List" <ge...@jakarta.apache.org>
>> To: "Jakarta General List" <ge...@jakarta.apache.org>
>>
>> On Monday, July 7, 2003, at 01:14 PM, Robert Simpson wrote:
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>>> I am surprised there isn't more interest in a common
>>> internationalization
>>> framework within Jakarta. But then I have been assuming that there are
>>> non-English-speaking "members" in Jakarta, not just "committers" and
>>> other users of the code.
>>
>> i think that there several jakarta members who are not native english
>> speakers. as Tetsuya Kitahata pointed out there are far fewer members
>> than
>> committers and i'm not sure whether there are any jakarta members who are
>> native speakers of non-latin languages. it takes a lot of energy to
>> spearhead an incubation and it's a big commitment for a member to make.
>>
>> but i don't think that the member would have to come from jakarta (even
>> if
>> that's where those people involved with the product hope that it will end
>> up). i wonder whether you might have more luck finding a sponsor over in
>> xml-land. since many of their products are multi-language a common i18n
>> framework may be of more pressing importance than here. i also have an
>> idea that there are members whose native languages are non-latin.
>>
>> i like the idea of an apache wide i18n project along the lines suggested
>> by Tetsuya Kitahata.
>>
>> - robert
>>
>> -------- Original Message --------
>> Subject: Re: [i18n] Internationalization subproject
>> Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2003 08:55:00 -0400
>> Reply-To: "Jakarta General List"
>> <ge...@jakarta.apache.org>,Rob.Simpson@iToolSet.com
>> To: Jakarta General List <ge...@jakarta.apache.org>
>> References: <20...@jarre.pair.com>
>> <20...@apache.org> <3F...@verizon.net>
>> <3F...@hisitech.com> <3F...@verizon.net>
>> <3F...@hisitech.com>
>>
>> WRT Santiago's point about keeping the different translations in sync,
>> the
>> solution is to have each word/phrase in (1) or each section in (2)
>> identified
>> in the XML with a version number. Then it would be a simple matter to
>> have a
>> program compare the two documents, and indicate where the translation
>> needs to
>> be updated (the program could even provide an initial translation of the
>> section via machine translation, to be refined by the human
>> translator). The
>> XML should also indicate who made each change and whether a change was
>> prompted by a need to change the document (additions to content, for
>> example)
>> or as a translation of another version. That way, no particular
>> translation
>> would have to be the "primary" document, and any conflicts could be
>> identified
>> and handled. For example, a Spanish-speaking person could add a missing
>> section to the Spanish translation of a document, and that section could
>> then
>> be translated back into the original and other translations. This
>> arrangement
>> could also handle "proposed" additions (the XML equivalent of "I, a
>> Spanish
>> translator, propose to add a new section here"), which could be
>> commented on
>> (ex: "that section would be better placed over there") and/or voted on by
>> translators of other languages, etc....
>>
>> Am I getting the feeling right that the Internationalization project
>> would be
>> ultimately targeted for a top level, multiple-programming-language Apache
>> project? If so, I think the best approach would be to get the Java
>> support
>> done first, to demonstrate its viability and usefulness. But still,
>> from the
>> start, the intent should be to design with language-independence as the
>> ultimate goal.
>>
>> So, in summary, the organization of the project would be:
>>
>> 1. code common to both (1) and (2)
>> 1.1 code
>> This would include any code that supports both (2) and (3), such as
>> the code
>> to do comparisons between translations
>> 1.1.1 any programming-language-neutral stuff (configuration files, XML,
>> etc)
>> 1.1.2 Java
>> 1.1.2.1 source code
>> 1.1.2.1.1 source code contributors (committers)
>> 1.1.3+ other programming languages, similarly
>>
>> 2. user interface internationalization (words and phrases)
>> 2.1 code
>> This would include the code to generate programming-language-specific
>> resources, and provide access to those resources
>> 2.1.1 any programming-language-neutral stuff (configuration files, XML,
>> etc)
>> 2.1.2 Java
>> 2.1.2.1 source code
>> 2.1.2.1.1 source code contributors (committers)
>> 2.1.2.2 resources (translations, generated from XML)
>> 2.1.3+ other programming languages, similarly
>> 2.1.3+.1 source code for other programming languages
>> 2.1.3+.2 resources for other programming languages (translations,
>> generated
>> from XML)
>> 2.2 language translations (programming-language-neutral)
>> 2.2.1 any spoken-language-neutral stuff (all-language distribution files,
>> JUnit tests for file verification, etc)
>> 2.2.2 English language translations (initial "source" translations)
>> 2.2.2.1 XML format
>> 2.2.2.1.1 English language translators (committers)
>> 2.2.2.2 English user references
>> 2.2.2.2.1 XML formatted user reference (generated, XSL-FO?)
>> 2.2.2.2.2 HTML formatted user reference (generated, possibly with a
>> doclet)
>> 2.2.2.2.3 PDF formatted user reference (generated, possibly from XML user
>> reference using Apache XML-FOP)
>> 2.2.3+ other spoken languages, similarly
>>
>> 3. internationalization of complete documents
>> 3.1 code
>> This would include code or tools (possibly making use of other Apache
>> code)
>> to generate specific document file formats
>> 3.1.1 any programming-language-neutral stuff (configuration files, XML,
>> etc)
>> 3.1.2 Java
>> 3.1.2.1 source code
>> 3.1.2.1.1 source code contributors (committers)
>> 3.1.3+ other programming languages, similarly
>> 3.1.3+.1 source code for other programming languages
>> 3.2 language translations (programming-language-neutral)
>> 3.2.1 any spoken-language-neutral stuff (all-language distribution files,
>> JUnit tests for file verification, etc)
>> 3.2.2 English language translations (initial "source" translations)
>> 3.2.2.1 XML format (based on XSL-FO?)
>> 3.2.2.1.1 English language translators (committers)
>> 3.2.2.2 HTML format (generated)
>> 3.2.2.3 PDF format (generated, possibly using Apache XML-FOP)
>> 3.2.2.4+ other document file formats (generated)
>> 3.2.3+ other spoken languages, similarly
>>
>> The main difference between sections (2) and (3) is that (2) is organized
>> primarily by programming language, with the programming-language-specific
>> resources as part of the first subsection (2.1) keeping the second
>> section
>> (2.2) programming-language-neutral, while (3) is organized primarily by
>> spoken
>> language, with the programming-language-independent file formats as part
>> of
>> the second subsection (3.2), keeping them separate from the
>> programming-language-specific stuff in the first subsection (3.1).
>>
>> I'd be willing to work on the common code and user interface code, and it
>> looks like there is a good starting list for the language translators.
>> Is
>> there anyone willing to drive the second part, the internationalization
>> of
>> complete documents?
>>
>> I can also be update the proposal as indicated above, and then let it be
>> reviewed/modified here, or in CVS somewhere. In your replies to the
>> mailing
>> list, please indicate in which of the following ways you might be
>> willing to
>> contribute:
>>
>> A) committer for code for internationalization of user interface and
>> possibly
>> common code
>> B) committer for code for internationalization of complete documents and
>> possibly common code
>> C) language translation (either or both UI or documents)
>> D) sponsor entry of Java version of Internationalization subproject into
>> Jakarta
>> E) incorporate internationalization into another Apache/Jakarta
>> sub/project
>> (please specify)
>> F) none of the above
>>
>> Robert Simpson
>>
>> Santiago Gala wrote:
>>
>>> Robert Simpson escribió:
>>>> Santiago Gala,
>>>>
>>>> As far a document and resource translation, I'm not sure if you are
>>>> referring to machine translation, or human translation. My focus has
>>>> been on human translation, mainly because machine translation is
>>>> still pretty far from perfect. There could be APIs for interfaces to
>>>> various machine translation tools, such as Systransoft, but I think
>>>> that should be a later, secondary priority. Even if there was
>>>> support for machine translation, I would prefer that it could be
>>>> augmented by human proofreading and revision. So it's probably just
>>>> as easy to let the language translator use whatever machine
>>>> translation tool s/he prefers.
>>>>
>>>
>>> David Taylor has already anwered WRT code.
>>>
>>> I was thinking mostly about having a "pool" of people who can translate
>>> and are more or less "cross project". For instance, I can translate
>>> English to Spanish, and I'm a committer in Jetspeed, but I could also
>>> translate, say, parts of the tomcat documents that I'm reading, or some
>>> XML stuff I'm interested into. Or even docs for Apache modules.
>>>
>>> The good part is that it would help the whole community, both WRT
>>> translation efforts and WRT crosspollination, as these kind of people
>>> will "see" beyond their small project(s). Also, it oculd bring new kinds
>>> of developers (Today I heard in the radio, coming home, that 72% od
>>> people in Spain cannot speak *any* foreign language. We are a bad sample
>>> but in most of Europe, less than 50% people speaks English.)
>>>
>>> The problem is that I can't see clearly how to implement such a
>>> crosscutting service/project, in ways that would not be difficult to
>>> impossible to manage. Specially since we should keep source control on
>>> both the original doc and the translations in sync.
>>>
>>> Any ideas?
>>>
>>> Regards
>>> --
>>> Santiago Gala
>>> High Sierra Technology, S.L. (http://hisitech.com)
>>> http://memojo.com?page=SantiagoGalaBlog
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@jakarta.apache.org
>>
>
> --
> Andrew C. Oliver
> http://www.superlinksoftware.com/poi.jsp
> Custom enhancements and Commercial Implementation for Jakarta POI
>
> http://jakarta.apache.org/poi
> For Java and Excel, Got POI?
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@jakarta.apache.org
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@jakarta.apache.org
Re: [i18n] Internationalization project
Posted by "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org>.
-1 this would exclude possible interested international folks. We should
keep the discussion on a list open to everyone!
On 7/14/03 2:21 AM, "Robert Simpson" <rs...@verizon.net> wrote:
> To: Community@Apache.org
>
> On the Jakarta General list, we've been discussing the possibility of
> introducing an "Internationalization" project into incubation. It seems the
> consensus is that it should be targeted for a top-level
> programming-language-independent and spoken-language-independent Apache
> project, rather a Jakarta subproject.
>
> (To anyone on the JG list: I used a blind CC so that this is the only message
> on Community@Apache.org which should be CCd to JG. You can set up message
> filters on "[i18n]" on both lists to follow the discussions in either
> place....)
>
> A preliminary organization of the project based on the JG discussions is
> included in my message below.
>
> I don't mind "spearheading" the incubation myself. Is there anyone else
> interested whom we can add to the list of contributors (see A through F
> below)? Is there anything else we should consider before requesting entry
> into incubation?
>
> TIA.
> Robert Simpson
>
> -------- Original Message --------
> Subject: Re: [i18n] Internationalization subproject sponsor?
> Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2003 21:32:36 +0100
> From: robert burrell donkin <ro...@blueyonder.co.uk>
> Reply-To: "Jakarta General List" <ge...@jakarta.apache.org>
> To: "Jakarta General List" <ge...@jakarta.apache.org>
>
> On Monday, July 7, 2003, at 01:14 PM, Robert Simpson wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>> I am surprised there isn't more interest in a common internationalization
>> framework within Jakarta. But then I have been assuming that there are
>> non-English-speaking "members" in Jakarta, not just "committers" and
>> other users of the code.
>
> i think that there several jakarta members who are not native english
> speakers. as Tetsuya Kitahata pointed out there are far fewer members than
> committers and i'm not sure whether there are any jakarta members who are
> native speakers of non-latin languages. it takes a lot of energy to
> spearhead an incubation and it's a big commitment for a member to make.
>
> but i don't think that the member would have to come from jakarta (even if
> that's where those people involved with the product hope that it will end
> up). i wonder whether you might have more luck finding a sponsor over in
> xml-land. since many of their products are multi-language a common i18n
> framework may be of more pressing importance than here. i also have an
> idea that there are members whose native languages are non-latin.
>
> i like the idea of an apache wide i18n project along the lines suggested
> by Tetsuya Kitahata.
>
> - robert
>
> -------- Original Message --------
> Subject: Re: [i18n] Internationalization subproject
> Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2003 08:55:00 -0400
> Reply-To: "Jakarta General List"
> <ge...@jakarta.apache.org>,Rob.Simpson@iToolSet.com
> To: Jakarta General List <ge...@jakarta.apache.org>
> References: <20...@jarre.pair.com>
> <20...@apache.org> <3F...@verizon.net>
> <3F...@hisitech.com> <3F...@verizon.net>
> <3F...@hisitech.com>
>
> WRT Santiago's point about keeping the different translations in sync, the
> solution is to have each word/phrase in (1) or each section in (2) identified
> in the XML with a version number. Then it would be a simple matter to have a
> program compare the two documents, and indicate where the translation needs to
> be updated (the program could even provide an initial translation of the
> section via machine translation, to be refined by the human translator). The
> XML should also indicate who made each change and whether a change was
> prompted by a need to change the document (additions to content, for example)
> or as a translation of another version. That way, no particular translation
> would have to be the "primary" document, and any conflicts could be identified
> and handled. For example, a Spanish-speaking person could add a missing
> section to the Spanish translation of a document, and that section could then
> be translated back into the original and other translations. This arrangement
> could also handle "proposed" additions (the XML equivalent of "I, a Spanish
> translator, propose to add a new section here"), which could be commented on
> (ex: "that section would be better placed over there") and/or voted on by
> translators of other languages, etc....
>
> Am I getting the feeling right that the Internationalization project would be
> ultimately targeted for a top level, multiple-programming-language Apache
> project? If so, I think the best approach would be to get the Java support
> done first, to demonstrate its viability and usefulness. But still, from the
> start, the intent should be to design with language-independence as the
> ultimate goal.
>
> So, in summary, the organization of the project would be:
>
> 1. code common to both (1) and (2)
> 1.1 code
> This would include any code that supports both (2) and (3), such as the code
> to do comparisons between translations
> 1.1.1 any programming-language-neutral stuff (configuration files, XML, etc)
> 1.1.2 Java
> 1.1.2.1 source code
> 1.1.2.1.1 source code contributors (committers)
> 1.1.3+ other programming languages, similarly
>
> 2. user interface internationalization (words and phrases)
> 2.1 code
> This would include the code to generate programming-language-specific
> resources, and provide access to those resources
> 2.1.1 any programming-language-neutral stuff (configuration files, XML, etc)
> 2.1.2 Java
> 2.1.2.1 source code
> 2.1.2.1.1 source code contributors (committers)
> 2.1.2.2 resources (translations, generated from XML)
> 2.1.3+ other programming languages, similarly
> 2.1.3+.1 source code for other programming languages
> 2.1.3+.2 resources for other programming languages (translations, generated
> from XML)
> 2.2 language translations (programming-language-neutral)
> 2.2.1 any spoken-language-neutral stuff (all-language distribution files,
> JUnit tests for file verification, etc)
> 2.2.2 English language translations (initial "source" translations)
> 2.2.2.1 XML format
> 2.2.2.1.1 English language translators (committers)
> 2.2.2.2 English user references
> 2.2.2.2.1 XML formatted user reference (generated, XSL-FO?)
> 2.2.2.2.2 HTML formatted user reference (generated, possibly with a doclet)
> 2.2.2.2.3 PDF formatted user reference (generated, possibly from XML user
> reference using Apache XML-FOP)
> 2.2.3+ other spoken languages, similarly
>
> 3. internationalization of complete documents
> 3.1 code
> This would include code or tools (possibly making use of other Apache code)
> to generate specific document file formats
> 3.1.1 any programming-language-neutral stuff (configuration files, XML, etc)
> 3.1.2 Java
> 3.1.2.1 source code
> 3.1.2.1.1 source code contributors (committers)
> 3.1.3+ other programming languages, similarly
> 3.1.3+.1 source code for other programming languages
> 3.2 language translations (programming-language-neutral)
> 3.2.1 any spoken-language-neutral stuff (all-language distribution files,
> JUnit tests for file verification, etc)
> 3.2.2 English language translations (initial "source" translations)
> 3.2.2.1 XML format (based on XSL-FO?)
> 3.2.2.1.1 English language translators (committers)
> 3.2.2.2 HTML format (generated)
> 3.2.2.3 PDF format (generated, possibly using Apache XML-FOP)
> 3.2.2.4+ other document file formats (generated)
> 3.2.3+ other spoken languages, similarly
>
> The main difference between sections (2) and (3) is that (2) is organized
> primarily by programming language, with the programming-language-specific
> resources as part of the first subsection (2.1) keeping the second section
> (2.2) programming-language-neutral, while (3) is organized primarily by spoken
> language, with the programming-language-independent file formats as part of
> the second subsection (3.2), keeping them separate from the
> programming-language-specific stuff in the first subsection (3.1).
>
> I'd be willing to work on the common code and user interface code, and it
> looks like there is a good starting list for the language translators. Is
> there anyone willing to drive the second part, the internationalization of
> complete documents?
>
> I can also be update the proposal as indicated above, and then let it be
> reviewed/modified here, or in CVS somewhere. In your replies to the mailing
> list, please indicate in which of the following ways you might be willing to
> contribute:
>
> A) committer for code for internationalization of user interface and possibly
> common code
> B) committer for code for internationalization of complete documents and
> possibly common code
> C) language translation (either or both UI or documents)
> D) sponsor entry of Java version of Internationalization subproject into
> Jakarta
> E) incorporate internationalization into another Apache/Jakarta sub/project
> (please specify)
> F) none of the above
>
> Robert Simpson
>
> Santiago Gala wrote:
>
>> Robert Simpson escribió:
>>> Santiago Gala,
>>>
>>> As far a document and resource translation, I'm not sure if you are
>>> referring to machine translation, or human translation. My focus has
>>> been on human translation, mainly because machine translation is
>>> still pretty far from perfect. There could be APIs for interfaces to
>>> various machine translation tools, such as Systransoft, but I think
>>> that should be a later, secondary priority. Even if there was
>>> support for machine translation, I would prefer that it could be
>>> augmented by human proofreading and revision. So it's probably just
>>> as easy to let the language translator use whatever machine
>>> translation tool s/he prefers.
>>>
>>
>> David Taylor has already anwered WRT code.
>>
>> I was thinking mostly about having a "pool" of people who can translate
>> and are more or less "cross project". For instance, I can translate
>> English to Spanish, and I'm a committer in Jetspeed, but I could also
>> translate, say, parts of the tomcat documents that I'm reading, or some
>> XML stuff I'm interested into. Or even docs for Apache modules.
>>
>> The good part is that it would help the whole community, both WRT
>> translation efforts and WRT crosspollination, as these kind of people
>> will "see" beyond their small project(s). Also, it oculd bring new kinds
>> of developers (Today I heard in the radio, coming home, that 72% od
>> people in Spain cannot speak *any* foreign language. We are a bad sample
>> but in most of Europe, less than 50% people speaks English.)
>>
>> The problem is that I can't see clearly how to implement such a
>> crosscutting service/project, in ways that would not be difficult to
>> impossible to manage. Specially since we should keep source control on
>> both the original doc and the translations in sync.
>>
>> Any ideas?
>>
>> Regards
>> --
>> Santiago Gala
>> High Sierra Technology, S.L. (http://hisitech.com)
>> http://memojo.com?page=SantiagoGalaBlog
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@jakarta.apache.org
>
--
Andrew C. Oliver
http://www.superlinksoftware.com/poi.jsp
Custom enhancements and Commercial Implementation for Jakarta POI
http://jakarta.apache.org/poi
For Java and Excel, Got POI?
---------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: [i18n] Internationalization project
Posted by "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org>.
-1 this would exclude possible interested international folks. We should
keep the discussion on a list open to everyone!
On 7/14/03 2:21 AM, "Robert Simpson" <rs...@verizon.net> wrote:
> To: Community@Apache.org
>
> On the Jakarta General list, we've been discussing the possibility of
> introducing an "Internationalization" project into incubation. It seems the
> consensus is that it should be targeted for a top-level
> programming-language-independent and spoken-language-independent Apache
> project, rather a Jakarta subproject.
>
> (To anyone on the JG list: I used a blind CC so that this is the only message
> on Community@Apache.org which should be CCd to JG. You can set up message
> filters on "[i18n]" on both lists to follow the discussions in either
> place....)
>
> A preliminary organization of the project based on the JG discussions is
> included in my message below.
>
> I don't mind "spearheading" the incubation myself. Is there anyone else
> interested whom we can add to the list of contributors (see A through F
> below)? Is there anything else we should consider before requesting entry
> into incubation?
>
> TIA.
> Robert Simpson
>
> -------- Original Message --------
> Subject: Re: [i18n] Internationalization subproject sponsor?
> Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2003 21:32:36 +0100
> From: robert burrell donkin <ro...@blueyonder.co.uk>
> Reply-To: "Jakarta General List" <ge...@jakarta.apache.org>
> To: "Jakarta General List" <ge...@jakarta.apache.org>
>
> On Monday, July 7, 2003, at 01:14 PM, Robert Simpson wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>> I am surprised there isn't more interest in a common internationalization
>> framework within Jakarta. But then I have been assuming that there are
>> non-English-speaking "members" in Jakarta, not just "committers" and
>> other users of the code.
>
> i think that there several jakarta members who are not native english
> speakers. as Tetsuya Kitahata pointed out there are far fewer members than
> committers and i'm not sure whether there are any jakarta members who are
> native speakers of non-latin languages. it takes a lot of energy to
> spearhead an incubation and it's a big commitment for a member to make.
>
> but i don't think that the member would have to come from jakarta (even if
> that's where those people involved with the product hope that it will end
> up). i wonder whether you might have more luck finding a sponsor over in
> xml-land. since many of their products are multi-language a common i18n
> framework may be of more pressing importance than here. i also have an
> idea that there are members whose native languages are non-latin.
>
> i like the idea of an apache wide i18n project along the lines suggested
> by Tetsuya Kitahata.
>
> - robert
>
> -------- Original Message --------
> Subject: Re: [i18n] Internationalization subproject
> Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2003 08:55:00 -0400
> Reply-To: "Jakarta General List"
> <ge...@jakarta.apache.org>,Rob.Simpson@iToolSet.com
> To: Jakarta General List <ge...@jakarta.apache.org>
> References: <20...@jarre.pair.com>
> <20...@apache.org> <3F...@verizon.net>
> <3F...@hisitech.com> <3F...@verizon.net>
> <3F...@hisitech.com>
>
> WRT Santiago's point about keeping the different translations in sync, the
> solution is to have each word/phrase in (1) or each section in (2) identified
> in the XML with a version number. Then it would be a simple matter to have a
> program compare the two documents, and indicate where the translation needs to
> be updated (the program could even provide an initial translation of the
> section via machine translation, to be refined by the human translator). The
> XML should also indicate who made each change and whether a change was
> prompted by a need to change the document (additions to content, for example)
> or as a translation of another version. That way, no particular translation
> would have to be the "primary" document, and any conflicts could be identified
> and handled. For example, a Spanish-speaking person could add a missing
> section to the Spanish translation of a document, and that section could then
> be translated back into the original and other translations. This arrangement
> could also handle "proposed" additions (the XML equivalent of "I, a Spanish
> translator, propose to add a new section here"), which could be commented on
> (ex: "that section would be better placed over there") and/or voted on by
> translators of other languages, etc....
>
> Am I getting the feeling right that the Internationalization project would be
> ultimately targeted for a top level, multiple-programming-language Apache
> project? If so, I think the best approach would be to get the Java support
> done first, to demonstrate its viability and usefulness. But still, from the
> start, the intent should be to design with language-independence as the
> ultimate goal.
>
> So, in summary, the organization of the project would be:
>
> 1. code common to both (1) and (2)
> 1.1 code
> This would include any code that supports both (2) and (3), such as the code
> to do comparisons between translations
> 1.1.1 any programming-language-neutral stuff (configuration files, XML, etc)
> 1.1.2 Java
> 1.1.2.1 source code
> 1.1.2.1.1 source code contributors (committers)
> 1.1.3+ other programming languages, similarly
>
> 2. user interface internationalization (words and phrases)
> 2.1 code
> This would include the code to generate programming-language-specific
> resources, and provide access to those resources
> 2.1.1 any programming-language-neutral stuff (configuration files, XML, etc)
> 2.1.2 Java
> 2.1.2.1 source code
> 2.1.2.1.1 source code contributors (committers)
> 2.1.2.2 resources (translations, generated from XML)
> 2.1.3+ other programming languages, similarly
> 2.1.3+.1 source code for other programming languages
> 2.1.3+.2 resources for other programming languages (translations, generated
> from XML)
> 2.2 language translations (programming-language-neutral)
> 2.2.1 any spoken-language-neutral stuff (all-language distribution files,
> JUnit tests for file verification, etc)
> 2.2.2 English language translations (initial "source" translations)
> 2.2.2.1 XML format
> 2.2.2.1.1 English language translators (committers)
> 2.2.2.2 English user references
> 2.2.2.2.1 XML formatted user reference (generated, XSL-FO?)
> 2.2.2.2.2 HTML formatted user reference (generated, possibly with a doclet)
> 2.2.2.2.3 PDF formatted user reference (generated, possibly from XML user
> reference using Apache XML-FOP)
> 2.2.3+ other spoken languages, similarly
>
> 3. internationalization of complete documents
> 3.1 code
> This would include code or tools (possibly making use of other Apache code)
> to generate specific document file formats
> 3.1.1 any programming-language-neutral stuff (configuration files, XML, etc)
> 3.1.2 Java
> 3.1.2.1 source code
> 3.1.2.1.1 source code contributors (committers)
> 3.1.3+ other programming languages, similarly
> 3.1.3+.1 source code for other programming languages
> 3.2 language translations (programming-language-neutral)
> 3.2.1 any spoken-language-neutral stuff (all-language distribution files,
> JUnit tests for file verification, etc)
> 3.2.2 English language translations (initial "source" translations)
> 3.2.2.1 XML format (based on XSL-FO?)
> 3.2.2.1.1 English language translators (committers)
> 3.2.2.2 HTML format (generated)
> 3.2.2.3 PDF format (generated, possibly using Apache XML-FOP)
> 3.2.2.4+ other document file formats (generated)
> 3.2.3+ other spoken languages, similarly
>
> The main difference between sections (2) and (3) is that (2) is organized
> primarily by programming language, with the programming-language-specific
> resources as part of the first subsection (2.1) keeping the second section
> (2.2) programming-language-neutral, while (3) is organized primarily by spoken
> language, with the programming-language-independent file formats as part of
> the second subsection (3.2), keeping them separate from the
> programming-language-specific stuff in the first subsection (3.1).
>
> I'd be willing to work on the common code and user interface code, and it
> looks like there is a good starting list for the language translators. Is
> there anyone willing to drive the second part, the internationalization of
> complete documents?
>
> I can also be update the proposal as indicated above, and then let it be
> reviewed/modified here, or in CVS somewhere. In your replies to the mailing
> list, please indicate in which of the following ways you might be willing to
> contribute:
>
> A) committer for code for internationalization of user interface and possibly
> common code
> B) committer for code for internationalization of complete documents and
> possibly common code
> C) language translation (either or both UI or documents)
> D) sponsor entry of Java version of Internationalization subproject into
> Jakarta
> E) incorporate internationalization into another Apache/Jakarta sub/project
> (please specify)
> F) none of the above
>
> Robert Simpson
>
> Santiago Gala wrote:
>
>> Robert Simpson escribió:
>>> Santiago Gala,
>>>
>>> As far a document and resource translation, I'm not sure if you are
>>> referring to machine translation, or human translation. My focus has
>>> been on human translation, mainly because machine translation is
>>> still pretty far from perfect. There could be APIs for interfaces to
>>> various machine translation tools, such as Systransoft, but I think
>>> that should be a later, secondary priority. Even if there was
>>> support for machine translation, I would prefer that it could be
>>> augmented by human proofreading and revision. So it's probably just
>>> as easy to let the language translator use whatever machine
>>> translation tool s/he prefers.
>>>
>>
>> David Taylor has already anwered WRT code.
>>
>> I was thinking mostly about having a "pool" of people who can translate
>> and are more or less "cross project". For instance, I can translate
>> English to Spanish, and I'm a committer in Jetspeed, but I could also
>> translate, say, parts of the tomcat documents that I'm reading, or some
>> XML stuff I'm interested into. Or even docs for Apache modules.
>>
>> The good part is that it would help the whole community, both WRT
>> translation efforts and WRT crosspollination, as these kind of people
>> will "see" beyond their small project(s). Also, it oculd bring new kinds
>> of developers (Today I heard in the radio, coming home, that 72% od
>> people in Spain cannot speak *any* foreign language. We are a bad sample
>> but in most of Europe, less than 50% people speaks English.)
>>
>> The problem is that I can't see clearly how to implement such a
>> crosscutting service/project, in ways that would not be difficult to
>> impossible to manage. Specially since we should keep source control on
>> both the original doc and the translations in sync.
>>
>> Any ideas?
>>
>> Regards
>> --
>> Santiago Gala
>> High Sierra Technology, S.L. (http://hisitech.com)
>> http://memojo.com?page=SantiagoGalaBlog
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@jakarta.apache.org
>
--
Andrew C. Oliver
http://www.superlinksoftware.com/poi.jsp
Custom enhancements and Commercial Implementation for Jakarta POI
http://jakarta.apache.org/poi
For Java and Excel, Got POI?
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: community-unsubscribe@apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: community-help@apache.org