Re: Concerted may be in need of help

["John D. Ament" <jo...@apache.org>]

Sorry to bring back this long dead topic, but wanted to rehash what was
discussed here.

We're now 3 months later, and it seems that Concerted has not improved.  is
it time to call it?

John

On Sat, Jan 9, 2016 at 3:58 PM Ross Gardler <Ro...@microsoft.com>
wrote:

> +1
>
> Everyone should read the subject and reset.
>
> If IPMC members having nothing better to offer than "give up" then please
> refrain from offering your advice to mentors asking for constructive help.
>
> That is not to say projects should linger, but unless mentors advise it we
> should not be interfering.
>
> Ross
>
> Sent from my Windows Phone
> ________________________________
> From: Julian Hyde<ma...@apache.org>
> Sent: ‎1/‎9/‎2016 12:37 PM
> To: general@incubator.apache.org<ma...@incubator.apache.org>
> Subject: Re: Concerted may be in need of help
>
> (Removing dev@concerted from the To: list.)
>
> Good grief. No one is suggesting there should be "steady activity
> requirement". I and other Concerted mentors just have a hunch that the
> project isn't doing well, and thought it would be better to bring our
> concerns to this list earlier rather than later. Let's not turn it
> into a debate over policy. If anyone can think of ways to help this
> project, then we'd love to hear your ideas. If you can't think of ways
> to help the project, or don't think the project needs to be helped,
> then don't help.
>
> Julian
>
> On Sat, Jan 9, 2016 at 12:21 PM, William A Rowe Jr <wr...@rowe-clan.net>
> wrote:
> > On Sat, Jan 9, 2016 at 1:27 PM, Chris Nauroth <cn...@hortonworks.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> As a Concerted mentor, I agree with the concern about lack of
> activity.  I
> >> think this was a difficult month for the project considering both the
> >> general drop in participation and the typical drop in activity that we
> >> should expect to happen around the end-of-year holidays.  The monthly
> >> reporting schedule implicitly requires that an incubating project show
> >> some kind of demonstrable progress month-to-month.  Still, other
> podlings
> >> did manage to sustain activity and complete a report during this time.
> >>
> >> I see John has already raised concern about lack of activity in the
> >> mentor/shepherd notes.  I just seconded that myself.
> >>
> >> Can we consider giving the PPMC a chance to reset and aim to
> re-establish
> >> steady activity this month?
> >
> >
> > What is the steady activity requirement that has been injected into
> > incubation?
> >
> > There are plenty of examples of projects that have enjoyed months and
> some
> > years of lull between bursts of activity, usually around new requirements
> > and
> > interests by patch submittors or committers.
> >
> > By this reconning, there have been a number of times measured in weeks or
> > months that the httpd and tomcat projects should have been folded.  Do we
> > really believe that a steady state of activity is healthy?  On the
> > contrary, it
> > is the bursts of new activity that lead our projects into new and
> > interesting
> > territory, not an n commits/mo target.
> >
> > That said, we don't want podlings to linger here; release early, release
> > often,
> > demonstrate that new contributors are recognized as committers/[p]pmc
> > members, and show us [incubator] that there isn't much more mentorship
> > required for the effort to proceed in the model of the ASF.  A project
> that
> > cannot get to a point of release in some reasonable time, e.g. a year or
> > two, or who takes down their shingle and announces they can't attract a
> > three+ community to sustain their effort, such projects should be
> retired.
>
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> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
>

Re: Concerted may be in need of help

[Jake Farrell <jf...@apache.org>]

no disagreement here, i've observed the same and agree that this project
has not been able to develop or attract any sort of community involvement
and that it would be best at this time for Concerted to retire from the
Incubator

-Jake

On Thu, Apr 7, 2016 at 1:50 PM, Chris Nauroth <cn...@hortonworks.com>
wrote:

> Hello John,
>
> Thank you for bringing up the topic again.  As a Concerted mentor, I was
> planning to do the same today.
>
> Just to confirm your observations, you are correct that there has been no
> further visible progress.  The only activity on the mailing list is from
> the mentors asking if anything is going on and reminding the community to
> file their reports.  Again, there is no report.
>
> I'm not demanding any specific amount of activity, but complete lack of
> any activity sure makes it look like the podling is not viable.  I don't
> think there is any remaining action that could be done by either the
> mentors or the wider Incubator community to salvage it, but I'm certainly
> open to suggestions if anyone disagrees.
>
> --Chris Nauroth
>
>
>
>
> On 4/7/16, 5:49 AM, "John D. Ament" <jo...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> >Sorry to bring back this long dead topic, but wanted to rehash what was
> >discussed here.
> >
> >We're now 3 months later, and it seems that Concerted has not improved.
> >is
> >it time to call it?
> >
> >John
> >
> >On Sat, Jan 9, 2016 at 3:58 PM Ross Gardler <Ro...@microsoft.com>
> >wrote:
> >
> >> +1
> >>
> >> Everyone should read the subject and reset.
> >>
> >> If IPMC members having nothing better to offer than "give up" then
> >>please
> >> refrain from offering your advice to mentors asking for constructive
> >>help.
> >>
> >> That is not to say projects should linger, but unless mentors advise it
> >>we
> >> should not be interfering.
> >>
> >> Ross
> >>
> >> Sent from my Windows Phone
> >> ________________________________
> >> From: Julian Hyde<ma...@apache.org>
> >> Sent: ?1/?9/?2016 12:37 PM
> >> To: general@incubator.apache.org<ma...@incubator.apache.org>
> >> Subject: Re: Concerted may be in need of help
> >>
> >> (Removing dev@concerted from the To: list.)
> >>
> >> Good grief. No one is suggesting there should be "steady activity
> >> requirement". I and other Concerted mentors just have a hunch that the
> >> project isn't doing well, and thought it would be better to bring our
> >> concerns to this list earlier rather than later. Let's not turn it
> >> into a debate over policy. If anyone can think of ways to help this
> >> project, then we'd love to hear your ideas. If you can't think of ways
> >> to help the project, or don't think the project needs to be helped,
> >> then don't help.
> >>
> >> Julian
> >>
> >> On Sat, Jan 9, 2016 at 12:21 PM, William A Rowe Jr <wrowe@rowe-clan.net
> >
> >> wrote:
> >> > On Sat, Jan 9, 2016 at 1:27 PM, Chris Nauroth
> >><cn...@hortonworks.com>
> >> > wrote:
> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >> As a Concerted mentor, I agree with the concern about lack of
> >> activity.  I
> >> >> think this was a difficult month for the project considering both the
> >> >> general drop in participation and the typical drop in activity that
> >>we
> >> >> should expect to happen around the end-of-year holidays.  The monthly
> >> >> reporting schedule implicitly requires that an incubating project
> >>show
> >> >> some kind of demonstrable progress month-to-month.  Still, other
> >> podlings
> >> >> did manage to sustain activity and complete a report during this
> >>time.
> >> >>
> >> >> I see John has already raised concern about lack of activity in the
> >> >> mentor/shepherd notes.  I just seconded that myself.
> >> >>
> >> >> Can we consider giving the PPMC a chance to reset and aim to
> >> re-establish
> >> >> steady activity this month?
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > What is the steady activity requirement that has been injected into
> >> > incubation?
> >> >
> >> > There are plenty of examples of projects that have enjoyed months and
> >> some
> >> > years of lull between bursts of activity, usually around new
> >>requirements
> >> > and
> >> > interests by patch submittors or committers.
> >> >
> >> > By this reconning, there have been a number of times measured in
> >>weeks or
> >> > months that the httpd and tomcat projects should have been folded.
> >>Do we
> >> > really believe that a steady state of activity is healthy?  On the
> >> > contrary, it
> >> > is the bursts of new activity that lead our projects into new and
> >> > interesting
> >> > territory, not an n commits/mo target.
> >> >
> >> > That said, we don't want podlings to linger here; release early,
> >>release
> >> > often,
> >> > demonstrate that new contributors are recognized as committers/[p]pmc
> >> > members, and show us [incubator] that there isn't much more mentorship
> >> > required for the effort to proceed in the model of the ASF.  A project
> >> that
> >> > cannot get to a point of release in some reasonable time, e.g. a year
> >>or
> >> > two, or who takes down their shingle and announces they can't attract
> >>a
> >> > three+ community to sustain their effort, such projects should be
> >> retired.
> >>
> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> >> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
> >>
> >>
>
>
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> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
>

Re: Concerted may be in need of help

[Julian Hyde <jh...@apache.org>]

Ok, I’ve started a DISCUSS thread.

> On Apr 7, 2016, at 11:24 AM, Roman Shaposhnik <ro...@shaposhnik.org> wrote:
> 
> On Thu, Apr 7, 2016 at 11:17 AM, Julian Hyde <jh...@apache.org> wrote:
>> I agree. I think this project has been dead for a while, and we’re just prolonging the agony.
> 
> As an initial Champion (but NOT a mentor) I have to agree :-(
> 
>> If we were to wind up the project, how would we proceed? A vote on concerted's dev list with lazy consensus, I presume?
>> 
>> Is there any reason why I should not start a discussion/vote right now?
> 
> You've got it! One of the active mentors needs to start a DISCUSS
> thread on dev@concerted
> and see where it goes from there.
> 
> Thanks,
> Roman.
> 
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> 


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Re: Concerted may be in need of help

[Roman Shaposhnik <ro...@shaposhnik.org>]

On Thu, Apr 7, 2016 at 11:17 AM, Julian Hyde <jh...@apache.org> wrote:
> I agree. I think this project has been dead for a while, and we’re just prolonging the agony.

As an initial Champion (but NOT a mentor) I have to agree :-(

> If we were to wind up the project, how would we proceed? A vote on concerted's dev list with lazy consensus, I presume?
>
> Is there any reason why I should not start a discussion/vote right now?

You've got it! One of the active mentors needs to start a DISCUSS
thread on dev@concerted
and see where it goes from there.

Thanks,
Roman.

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Re: Concerted may be in need of help

[Julian Hyde <jh...@apache.org>]

I agree. I think this project has been dead for a while, and we’re just prolonging the agony.

If we were to wind up the project, how would we proceed? A vote on concerted's dev list with lazy consensus, I presume?

Is there any reason why I should not start a discussion/vote right now?

Julian


> On Apr 7, 2016, at 10:50 AM, Chris Nauroth <cn...@hortonworks.com> wrote:
> 
> Hello John,
> 
> Thank you for bringing up the topic again.  As a Concerted mentor, I was
> planning to do the same today.
> 
> Just to confirm your observations, you are correct that there has been no
> further visible progress.  The only activity on the mailing list is from
> the mentors asking if anything is going on and reminding the community to
> file their reports.  Again, there is no report.
> 
> I'm not demanding any specific amount of activity, but complete lack of
> any activity sure makes it look like the podling is not viable.  I don't
> think there is any remaining action that could be done by either the
> mentors or the wider Incubator community to salvage it, but I'm certainly
> open to suggestions if anyone disagrees.
> 
> --Chris Nauroth
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On 4/7/16, 5:49 AM, "John D. Ament" <jo...@apache.org> wrote:
> 
>> Sorry to bring back this long dead topic, but wanted to rehash what was
>> discussed here.
>> 
>> We're now 3 months later, and it seems that Concerted has not improved.
>> is
>> it time to call it?
>> 
>> John
>> 
>> On Sat, Jan 9, 2016 at 3:58 PM Ross Gardler <Ro...@microsoft.com>
>> wrote:
>> 
>>> +1
>>> 
>>> Everyone should read the subject and reset.
>>> 
>>> If IPMC members having nothing better to offer than "give up" then
>>> please
>>> refrain from offering your advice to mentors asking for constructive
>>> help.
>>> 
>>> That is not to say projects should linger, but unless mentors advise it
>>> we
>>> should not be interfering.
>>> 
>>> Ross
>>> 
>>> Sent from my Windows Phone
>>> ________________________________
>>> From: Julian Hyde<ma...@apache.org>
>>> Sent: ?1/?9/?2016 12:37 PM
>>> To: general@incubator.apache.org<ma...@incubator.apache.org>
>>> Subject: Re: Concerted may be in need of help
>>> 
>>> (Removing dev@concerted from the To: list.)
>>> 
>>> Good grief. No one is suggesting there should be "steady activity
>>> requirement". I and other Concerted mentors just have a hunch that the
>>> project isn't doing well, and thought it would be better to bring our
>>> concerns to this list earlier rather than later. Let's not turn it
>>> into a debate over policy. If anyone can think of ways to help this
>>> project, then we'd love to hear your ideas. If you can't think of ways
>>> to help the project, or don't think the project needs to be helped,
>>> then don't help.
>>> 
>>> Julian
>>> 
>>> On Sat, Jan 9, 2016 at 12:21 PM, William A Rowe Jr <wr...@rowe-clan.net>
>>> wrote:
>>>> On Sat, Jan 9, 2016 at 1:27 PM, Chris Nauroth
>>> <cn...@hortonworks.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> As a Concerted mentor, I agree with the concern about lack of
>>> activity.  I
>>>>> think this was a difficult month for the project considering both the
>>>>> general drop in participation and the typical drop in activity that
>>> we
>>>>> should expect to happen around the end-of-year holidays.  The monthly
>>>>> reporting schedule implicitly requires that an incubating project
>>> show
>>>>> some kind of demonstrable progress month-to-month.  Still, other
>>> podlings
>>>>> did manage to sustain activity and complete a report during this
>>> time.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I see John has already raised concern about lack of activity in the
>>>>> mentor/shepherd notes.  I just seconded that myself.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Can we consider giving the PPMC a chance to reset and aim to
>>> re-establish
>>>>> steady activity this month?
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> What is the steady activity requirement that has been injected into
>>>> incubation?
>>>> 
>>>> There are plenty of examples of projects that have enjoyed months and
>>> some
>>>> years of lull between bursts of activity, usually around new
>>> requirements
>>>> and
>>>> interests by patch submittors or committers.
>>>> 
>>>> By this reconning, there have been a number of times measured in
>>> weeks or
>>>> months that the httpd and tomcat projects should have been folded.
>>> Do we
>>>> really believe that a steady state of activity is healthy?  On the
>>>> contrary, it
>>>> is the bursts of new activity that lead our projects into new and
>>>> interesting
>>>> territory, not an n commits/mo target.
>>>> 
>>>> That said, we don't want podlings to linger here; release early,
>>> release
>>>> often,
>>>> demonstrate that new contributors are recognized as committers/[p]pmc
>>>> members, and show us [incubator] that there isn't much more mentorship
>>>> required for the effort to proceed in the model of the ASF.  A project
>>> that
>>>> cannot get to a point of release in some reasonable time, e.g. a year
>>> or
>>>> two, or who takes down their shingle and announces they can't attract
>>> a
>>>> three+ community to sustain their effort, such projects should be
>>> retired.
>>> 
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>> 
>>> 
> 
> 
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
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Re: Concerted may be in need of help

[Chris Nauroth <cn...@hortonworks.com>]

Hello John,

Thank you for bringing up the topic again.  As a Concerted mentor, I was
planning to do the same today.

Just to confirm your observations, you are correct that there has been no
further visible progress.  The only activity on the mailing list is from
the mentors asking if anything is going on and reminding the community to
file their reports.  Again, there is no report.

I'm not demanding any specific amount of activity, but complete lack of
any activity sure makes it look like the podling is not viable.  I don't
think there is any remaining action that could be done by either the
mentors or the wider Incubator community to salvage it, but I'm certainly
open to suggestions if anyone disagrees.

--Chris Nauroth




On 4/7/16, 5:49 AM, "John D. Ament" <jo...@apache.org> wrote:

>Sorry to bring back this long dead topic, but wanted to rehash what was
>discussed here.
>
>We're now 3 months later, and it seems that Concerted has not improved.
>is
>it time to call it?
>
>John
>
>On Sat, Jan 9, 2016 at 3:58 PM Ross Gardler <Ro...@microsoft.com>
>wrote:
>
>> +1
>>
>> Everyone should read the subject and reset.
>>
>> If IPMC members having nothing better to offer than "give up" then
>>please
>> refrain from offering your advice to mentors asking for constructive
>>help.
>>
>> That is not to say projects should linger, but unless mentors advise it
>>we
>> should not be interfering.
>>
>> Ross
>>
>> Sent from my Windows Phone
>> ________________________________
>> From: Julian Hyde<ma...@apache.org>
>> Sent: ?1/?9/?2016 12:37 PM
>> To: general@incubator.apache.org<ma...@incubator.apache.org>
>> Subject: Re: Concerted may be in need of help
>>
>> (Removing dev@concerted from the To: list.)
>>
>> Good grief. No one is suggesting there should be "steady activity
>> requirement". I and other Concerted mentors just have a hunch that the
>> project isn't doing well, and thought it would be better to bring our
>> concerns to this list earlier rather than later. Let's not turn it
>> into a debate over policy. If anyone can think of ways to help this
>> project, then we'd love to hear your ideas. If you can't think of ways
>> to help the project, or don't think the project needs to be helped,
>> then don't help.
>>
>> Julian
>>
>> On Sat, Jan 9, 2016 at 12:21 PM, William A Rowe Jr <wr...@rowe-clan.net>
>> wrote:
>> > On Sat, Jan 9, 2016 at 1:27 PM, Chris Nauroth
>><cn...@hortonworks.com>
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> >>
>> >> As a Concerted mentor, I agree with the concern about lack of
>> activity.  I
>> >> think this was a difficult month for the project considering both the
>> >> general drop in participation and the typical drop in activity that
>>we
>> >> should expect to happen around the end-of-year holidays.  The monthly
>> >> reporting schedule implicitly requires that an incubating project
>>show
>> >> some kind of demonstrable progress month-to-month.  Still, other
>> podlings
>> >> did manage to sustain activity and complete a report during this
>>time.
>> >>
>> >> I see John has already raised concern about lack of activity in the
>> >> mentor/shepherd notes.  I just seconded that myself.
>> >>
>> >> Can we consider giving the PPMC a chance to reset and aim to
>> re-establish
>> >> steady activity this month?
>> >
>> >
>> > What is the steady activity requirement that has been injected into
>> > incubation?
>> >
>> > There are plenty of examples of projects that have enjoyed months and
>> some
>> > years of lull between bursts of activity, usually around new
>>requirements
>> > and
>> > interests by patch submittors or committers.
>> >
>> > By this reconning, there have been a number of times measured in
>>weeks or
>> > months that the httpd and tomcat projects should have been folded.
>>Do we
>> > really believe that a steady state of activity is healthy?  On the
>> > contrary, it
>> > is the bursts of new activity that lead our projects into new and
>> > interesting
>> > territory, not an n commits/mo target.
>> >
>> > That said, we don't want podlings to linger here; release early,
>>release
>> > often,
>> > demonstrate that new contributors are recognized as committers/[p]pmc
>> > members, and show us [incubator] that there isn't much more mentorship
>> > required for the effort to proceed in the model of the ASF.  A project
>> that
>> > cannot get to a point of release in some reasonable time, e.g. a year
>>or
>> > two, or who takes down their shingle and announces they can't attract
>>a
>> > three+ community to sustain their effort, such projects should be
>> retired.
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>
>>


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