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Posted to dev@httpd.apache.org by Sander Striker <st...@apache.org> on 2004/06/07 00:06:13 UTC
Re: Move apache-1.3 to Subversion
On Mon, 2004-05-24 at 20:52, Jim Jagielski wrote:
> Sander Striker wrote:
> >
> > On Mon, 2004-05-24 at 14:13, Jim Jagielski wrote:
> > > On May 23, 2004, at 4:01 PM, Manoj Kasichainula wrote:
> > >
> > > > On Mon, May 17, 2004 at 12:35:13AM +0200, Sander Striker wrote:
> > > >> There's only one thing for us to decide; how to define the layout
> > > >> under "httpd/" in the SVN repository.
> >
> > [...]
> > > Fine here, but does httpd-2.x need to move over for apache-1.3 to
> > > migrate to subversion?
> >
> > No, I was just giving the overall picture.
> >
> > Sander
>
> +1 then :)
FYI, Fitz did a conversion of apache-1.3, which is now located at
http://svn.apache.org/repos/test/httpd/. (in the test repository).
This is not the final layout, but I'd strongly suggest people play
around with it and verify history is as expected. If we all agree
things are looking good, we'll lock CVS for apache 1.3 and do
a final conversion, moving things to the main ASF repository.
Sander
Re: Move apache-1.3 to Subversion
Posted by "Brian W. Fitzpatrick" <fi...@red-bean.com>.
On Mon, 2004-06-07 at 21:06, Greg Stein wrote:
> Oops. Fitz mis-typed. Tags are O(1). Very cheap. Very fast.
Thanks, Greg. Dangers of replying to emails while eating dinner. :-)
-Fitz
Re: Move apache-1.3 to Subversion
Posted by Greg Stein <gs...@lyra.org>.
On Mon, Jun 07, 2004 at 08:30:40PM -0500, Brian W. Fitzpatrick wrote:
> On Mon, 2004-06-07 at 12:30, William A. Rowe, Jr. wrote:
>...
> > Badda bing, badda boom. So my rsync fears were unfounded, it appears
> > it is trivial to mirror the repository?
um. no. "mirroring" in this fashion is awful in the extreme.
> > I'm much more comfortable with that news. Is this more or less bandwidth
> > intensive than simply rsync'ing the repository files themselves?
>
> Much much much much more. A tag in Subversion is an O(n) operation.
> checking out a tag is not.
Oops. Fitz mis-typed. Tags are O(1). Very cheap. Very fast.
And yes: checking those babies out is not. If I went in and created an
hourly build tag, then ASF repository wouldn't even blink. But to some
fool trying to mirror the repository? They'd be CRUSHED.
> We need to get something in place to provide for rsync or rsync-like
> capabilities.
Yeup. The only really approach is to use Berkeley DB replication. You
can't just copy the database files via rsync since they must be copied in
a particular order. Further, the rsync'd copy is not necessarily viable.
All the data is there, but the copy requires a "recovery" before it is
useful. Thus, an rsync of the raw files doesn't really work.
Not to mention that the files change even without any commits occurring.
Cheers,
-g
--
Greg Stein, http://www.lyra.org/
Re: Move apache-1.3 to Subversion
Posted by Greg Stein <gs...@lyra.org>.
On Mon, Jun 07, 2004 at 11:24:25PM -0500, William A. Rowe, Jr. wrote:
> Any which way, no matter how well tested subversion is; the fact that
> various 3rd parties are willing to mirror our development repositories has
> proved invaluable, and tragic when requests for those mirrors weren't
> available (in time). Let's get the details worked out long before we all
> agree that the official apache-1.3 or -2.0 repository sources are hosted
> in SVN.
-1 to that idea. I'm going to vote to close up CVS and make SVN the
official repository as soon as Fitz imports it into the main repo. There
is no way that we can wait for those details. Feel free to start on it
now, but I'm not going to call that a showstopper.
> No complaints with the protocol, implementation or tools. Just a very
> realistic view of how much we need external mirrors.
I don't consider it realistic, but that's [just] me.
Cheers,
-g
--
Greg Stein, http://www.lyra.org/
Re: Move apache-1.3 to Subversion
Posted by "William A. Rowe, Jr." <wr...@rowe-clan.net>.
Any which way, no matter how well tested subversion is; the fact that
various 3rd parties are willing to mirror our development repositories has
proved invaluable, and tragic when requests for those mirrors weren't
available (in time). Let's get the details worked out long before we all
agree that the official apache-1.3 or -2.0 repository sources are hosted
in SVN.
No complaints with the protocol, implementation or tools. Just a very
realistic view of how much we need external mirrors.
Bill
At 08:52 PM 6/7/2004, Garrett Rooney wrote:
>Brian W. Fitzpatrick wrote:
>
>>>Badda bing, badda boom. So my rsync fears were unfounded, it appears
>>>it is trivial to mirror the repository?
>>>
>>>I'm much more comfortable with that news. Is this more or less bandwidth
>>>intensive than simply rsync'ing the repository files themselves?
>>
>>Much much much much more. A tag in Subversion is an O(n) operation.
>>checking out a tag is not.
>>We need to get something in place to provide for rsync or rsync-like
>>capabilities.
>
>Perhaps making dumpfiles available (maybe diffy Subversion 1.1 style dumps once they're released), or providing a libsvn_fs_fs version of the repository for rsyncing.
>
>Although since the ASF is using one large repository some hybrid might be best, dumping and loading into smaller fsfs repositories for each project which are available for rsyncing?
>
>Whatever way is chosen, I don't think making bdb style repositories available for rsync will do much good, too many platform/bdb version issues to make it bulletproof.
>
>-garrett
Re: Move apache-1.3 to Subversion
Posted by Garrett Rooney <ro...@electricjellyfish.net>.
Brian W. Fitzpatrick wrote:
>>Badda bing, badda boom. So my rsync fears were unfounded, it appears
>>it is trivial to mirror the repository?
>>
>>I'm much more comfortable with that news. Is this more or less bandwidth
>>intensive than simply rsync'ing the repository files themselves?
>
>
> Much much much much more. A tag in Subversion is an O(n) operation.
> checking out a tag is not.
>
> We need to get something in place to provide for rsync or rsync-like
> capabilities.
Perhaps making dumpfiles available (maybe diffy Subversion 1.1 style
dumps once they're released), or providing a libsvn_fs_fs version of the
repository for rsyncing.
Although since the ASF is using one large repository some hybrid might
be best, dumping and loading into smaller fsfs repositories for each
project which are available for rsyncing?
Whatever way is chosen, I don't think making bdb style repositories
available for rsync will do much good, too many platform/bdb version
issues to make it bulletproof.
-garrett
Re: Move apache-1.3 to Subversion
Posted by "Brian W. Fitzpatrick" <fi...@red-bean.com>.
On Mon, 2004-06-07 at 12:30, William A. Rowe, Jr. wrote:
> At 08:45 AM 6/7/2004, Bill Stoddard wrote:
> >Brian W. Fitzpatrick wrote:
> >>On Jun 6, 2004, at 10:42 PM, Geoffrey Young wrote:
> >>
> >>>
> >>>>FYI, Fitz did a conversion of apache-1.3, which is now located at
> >>>>http://svn.apache.org/repos/test/httpd/. (in the test repository).
> >>>
> >>>wow, that's a lot of data - 10 minutes later and I'm still downloading...
> >>
> >>By checking out http://svn.apache.org/repos/test/httpd/, you're getting one copy of the httpd source tree for every branch and tag! That's a LOT of data!
>
> Badda bing, badda boom. So my rsync fears were unfounded, it appears
> it is trivial to mirror the repository?
>
> I'm much more comfortable with that news. Is this more or less bandwidth
> intensive than simply rsync'ing the repository files themselves?
Much much much much more. A tag in Subversion is an O(n) operation.
checking out a tag is not.
We need to get something in place to provide for rsync or rsync-like
capabilities.
-Fitz
Re: Move apache-1.3 to Subversion
Posted by "William A. Rowe, Jr." <wr...@rowe-clan.net>.
At 08:45 AM 6/7/2004, Bill Stoddard wrote:
>Brian W. Fitzpatrick wrote:
>>On Jun 6, 2004, at 10:42 PM, Geoffrey Young wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>>FYI, Fitz did a conversion of apache-1.3, which is now located at
>>>>http://svn.apache.org/repos/test/httpd/. (in the test repository).
>>>
>>>wow, that's a lot of data - 10 minutes later and I'm still downloading...
>>
>>By checking out http://svn.apache.org/repos/test/httpd/, you're getting one copy of the httpd source tree for every branch and tag! That's a LOT of data!
Badda bing, badda boom. So my rsync fears were unfounded, it appears
it is trivial to mirror the repository?
I'm much more comfortable with that news. Is this more or less bandwidth
intensive than simply rsync'ing the repository files themselves?
Bill
Re: Move apache-1.3 to Subversion
Posted by Sander Striker <st...@apache.org>.
On Mon, 2004-06-07 at 16:15, Brian W. Fitzpatrick wrote:
> On Jun 7, 2004, at 8:45 AM, Bill Stoddard wrote:
>
> > Brian W. Fitzpatrick wrote:
> >> On Jun 6, 2004, at 10:42 PM, Geoffrey Young wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> FYI, Fitz did a conversion of apache-1.3, which is now located at
> >>>> http://svn.apache.org/repos/test/httpd/. (in the test repository).
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> wow, that's a lot of data - 10 minutes later and I'm still
> >>> downloading...
> >> Wait! No! You don't want to check out
> >> http://svn.apache.org/repos/test/httpd/ ... you want to check out
> >> http://svn.apache.org/repos/test/httpd/trunk/
> >> By checking out http://svn.apache.org/repos/test/httpd/, you're
> >> getting one copy of the httpd source tree for every branch and tag!
> >> That's a LOT of data!
> >
> > This is going to be a recurring problem. Geoff did the intuitive
> > thing, which turned out to be wrong. Not good.
>
> Documentation issue... IMO, Sander should have added a note to his
> conversion notice about how to checkout the trunk of the repository.
Correct. I should have. Sorry guys.
Some links that may be of help:
http://www.apache.org/dev/version-control.html
http://incubator.apache.org/directory/svn.html
http://www.svnbook.org/
Sander
Re: Move apache-1.3 to Subversion
Posted by Geoffrey Young <ge...@modperlcookbook.org>.
>> This is going to be a recurring problem. Geoff did the intuitive
>> thing, which turned out to be wrong. Not good.
>
>
> Documentation issue... IMO, Sander should have added a note to his
> conversion notice about how to checkout the trunk of the repository.
yeah, I'd agree with this - including trunk/ in the url wherever it appears
would probably solve the issue for cut-and-paste types like me, who don't
fully grok svn (or grok it just enough to be dangerous :)
as an aside, I can't recall if it has been discussed already, but just in
case it hasn't, someone ought to take a look at the features listed in
http://httpd.apache.org/dev/anoncvs.txt
and see what needs to be done to support them (or remove them from the doc)
once the migration is offical. my understanding is that the anonymous
access bit it taken care of automatically with svn, but a few people I've
talked to have wondered whether rsync is going away.
--Geoff
Re: Move apache-1.3 to Subversion
Posted by "Brian W. Fitzpatrick" <fi...@red-bean.com>.
On Jun 7, 2004, at 8:45 AM, Bill Stoddard wrote:
> Brian W. Fitzpatrick wrote:
>> On Jun 6, 2004, at 10:42 PM, Geoffrey Young wrote:
>>>
>>>> FYI, Fitz did a conversion of apache-1.3, which is now located at
>>>> http://svn.apache.org/repos/test/httpd/. (in the test repository).
>>>
>>>
>>> wow, that's a lot of data - 10 minutes later and I'm still
>>> downloading...
>> Wait! No! You don't want to check out
>> http://svn.apache.org/repos/test/httpd/ ... you want to check out
>> http://svn.apache.org/repos/test/httpd/trunk/
>> By checking out http://svn.apache.org/repos/test/httpd/, you're
>> getting one copy of the httpd source tree for every branch and tag!
>> That's a LOT of data!
>
> This is going to be a recurring problem. Geoff did the intuitive
> thing, which turned out to be wrong. Not good.
Documentation issue... IMO, Sander should have added a note to his
conversion notice about how to checkout the trunk of the repository.
-Fitz
Re: Move apache-1.3 to Subversion
Posted by Greg Marr <gr...@alum.wpi.edu>.
At 10:50 PM 7/15/2004, William A. Rowe, Jr. wrote:
>I agree, here, with Joe. Wondering if it's an appropriate
>alternative.
>
>I'm facing similar, with a subproject entering incubation, and I'd
>like to know our decision here, before I go and create a subproject
>structure under /httpd/ that turns out to be wonky.
>
>is /trunk/httpd/ an appropriate solution? This bit me, trying to
>check out some /incubation/ stuff.
Everything I've seen on source control strategies recommends stuff
like:
/httpd/trunk/
/httpd/branches/
etc.
This seems to make the most sense to me from an organizational
standpoint, especially once you start adding other top level projects.
As an example:
/apr/trunk/
/apr-util/trunk/
/httpd/trunk/
makes a heck of a lot more sense than
/trunk/httpd/
/trunk/apr/
/trunk/apr-util/
since the logical grouping is by project, then by whether it's the
trunk or a branch, and then by the name of the branch.
Someone that doesn't know the organization of the source may make
this mistake once, if it's not well documented, or if they don't read
the docs first. After that, they'll probably never make that mistake
again. With the other direction, you'll constantly have to deal with
the illogical organization.
Re: Move apache-1.3 to Subversion
Posted by "William A. Rowe, Jr." <wr...@rowe-clan.net>.
I agree, here, with Joe. Wondering if it's an appropriate alternative.
I'm facing similar, with a subproject entering incubation, and I'd like to
know our decision here, before I go and create a subproject structure
under /httpd/ that turns out to be wonky.
is /trunk/httpd/ an appropriate solution? This bit me, trying to check
out some /incubation/ stuff.
Bill
At 09:32 AM 6/7/2004, Joe Schaefer wrote:
>Bill Stoddard <bi...@wstoddard.com> writes:
>
>> Brian W. Fitzpatrick wrote:
>> > On Jun 6, 2004, at 10:42 PM, Geoffrey Young wrote:
>> >
>> >>
>> >>> FYI, Fitz did a conversion of apache-1.3, which is now located at
>> >>> http://svn.apache.org/repos/test/httpd/. (in the test repository).
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> wow, that's a lot of data - 10 minutes later and I'm still downloading...
>> > Wait! No! You don't want to check out
>> > http://svn.apache.org/repos/test/httpd/ ... you want to check out
>> > http://svn.apache.org/repos/test/httpd/trunk/
>> > By checking out http://svn.apache.org/repos/test/httpd/, you're
>> > getting one copy of the httpd source tree for every branch and tag!
>> >That's a LOT of data!
>>
>> This is going to be a recurring problem. Geoff did the intuitive
>> thing, which turned out to be wrong. Not good.
>
>I think the other repository layout, with eg /trunk/httpd instead of
>/httpd/trunk, prevents this problem since the intuitive thing
>would yield a 404.
>
>
>--
>Joe Schaefer
Re: Move apache-1.3 to Subversion
Posted by Joe Schaefer <jo...@sunstarsys.com>.
Bill Stoddard <bi...@wstoddard.com> writes:
> Brian W. Fitzpatrick wrote:
> > On Jun 6, 2004, at 10:42 PM, Geoffrey Young wrote:
> >
> >>
> >>> FYI, Fitz did a conversion of apache-1.3, which is now located at
> >>> http://svn.apache.org/repos/test/httpd/. (in the test repository).
> >>
> >>
> >> wow, that's a lot of data - 10 minutes later and I'm still downloading...
> > Wait! No! You don't want to check out
> > http://svn.apache.org/repos/test/httpd/ ... you want to check out
> > http://svn.apache.org/repos/test/httpd/trunk/
> > By checking out http://svn.apache.org/repos/test/httpd/, you're
> > getting one copy of the httpd source tree for every branch and tag!
> >That's a LOT of data!
>
> This is going to be a recurring problem. Geoff did the intuitive
> thing, which turned out to be wrong. Not good.
I think the other repository layout, with eg /trunk/httpd instead of
/httpd/trunk, prevents this problem since the intuitive thing
would yield a 404.
--
Joe Schaefer
Re: Move apache-1.3 to Subversion
Posted by Bill Stoddard <bi...@wstoddard.com>.
Brian W. Fitzpatrick wrote:
>
> On Jun 6, 2004, at 10:42 PM, Geoffrey Young wrote:
>
>>
>>> FYI, Fitz did a conversion of apache-1.3, which is now located at
>>> http://svn.apache.org/repos/test/httpd/. (in the test repository).
>>
>>
>> wow, that's a lot of data - 10 minutes later and I'm still downloading...
>
>
> Wait! No! You don't want to check out
> http://svn.apache.org/repos/test/httpd/ ... you want to check out
> http://svn.apache.org/repos/test/httpd/trunk/
>
> By checking out http://svn.apache.org/repos/test/httpd/, you're getting
> one copy of the httpd source tree for every branch and tag! That's a
> LOT of data!
This is going to be a recurring problem. Geoff did the intuitive thing, which turned out to be wrong. Not good.
Bill
Re: Move apache-1.3 to Subversion
Posted by Justin Erenkrantz <ju...@erenkrantz.com>.
--On Monday, June 7, 2004 11:59 AM -0400 Jim Jagielski <ji...@jaguNET.com> wrote:
> Is there a recommended client-side config setup?
> Things like using ssh and authentication, etc...
You should use SSL instead of SSH, i.e. something like:
https://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/httpd/apache-1.3/trunk/
And, you need to run svnpasswd on minotaur to setup your SVN password, if you
haven't already done so. And, we don't support ra_svn (which allows for SSH
tunneling in Subversion) as we want to move away from granting user accounts
to access the repository. -- justin
Re: Move apache-1.3 to Subversion
Posted by Jim Jagielski <ji...@jaguNET.com>.
Is there a recommended client-side config setup?
Things like using ssh and authentication, etc...
Thanks!
Re: Move apache-1.3 to Subversion
Posted by "Brian W. Fitzpatrick" <fi...@red-bean.com>.
On Jun 6, 2004, at 10:42 PM, Geoffrey Young wrote:
>
>> FYI, Fitz did a conversion of apache-1.3, which is now located at
>> http://svn.apache.org/repos/test/httpd/. (in the test repository).
>
> wow, that's a lot of data - 10 minutes later and I'm still
> downloading...
Wait! No! You don't want to check out
http://svn.apache.org/repos/test/httpd/ ... you want to check out
http://svn.apache.org/repos/test/httpd/trunk/
By checking out http://svn.apache.org/repos/test/httpd/, you're getting
one copy of the httpd source tree for every branch and tag! That's a
LOT of data!
You may want to check out the Subversion book at
http://svnbook.red-bean.com/ (esp. Appendix A, Subversion for CVS
users).
> I guess it goes without saying that most of the people here are
> intimate
> with svn. as someone who just started playing with it about a month
> ago,
> will there be httpd developer guidelines and hints someplace, or is the
> existing (copious) svn documentation about it? for instance, I
> imagine that
> for routine patching, etc I'll only need to have a working copy of
> trunk?
You should never need to check out the root of the repository.
Typically, you check out trunk and use 'svn switch' to change your
working copy to a branch for branch work. Oh, and branches and tags
are typically created without a working copy by operating on URLs.
-Fitz
Re: Move apache-1.3 to Subversion
Posted by Geoffrey Young <ge...@modperlcookbook.org>.
> FYI, Fitz did a conversion of apache-1.3, which is now located at
> http://svn.apache.org/repos/test/httpd/. (in the test repository).
wow, that's a lot of data - 10 minutes later and I'm still downloading...
I guess it goes without saying that most of the people here are intimate
with svn. as someone who just started playing with it about a month ago,
will there be httpd developer guidelines and hints someplace, or is the
existing (copious) svn documentation about it? for instance, I imagine that
for routine patching, etc I'll only need to have a working copy of trunk?
--Geoff
Re: Move apache-1.3 to Subversion
Posted by "Brian W. Fitzpatrick" <fi...@red-bean.com>.
On Jun 6, 2004, at 5:16 PM, Justin Erenkrantz wrote:
> One minor nit: I thought cvs2svn set the svn:ignore property and
> tossed the .cvsignore files?
Not yet. http://cvs2svn.tigris.org/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=10
-Fitz
Re: Move apache-1.3 to Subversion
Posted by Justin Erenkrantz <ju...@erenkrantz.com>.
--On Monday, June 7, 2004 12:06 AM +0200 Sander Striker <st...@apache.org>
wrote:
> FYI, Fitz did a conversion of apache-1.3, which is now located at
> http://svn.apache.org/repos/test/httpd/. (in the test repository).
Looks good - +1.
We should probably import it as: /httpd/httpd-1.3 or /httpd/apache-1.3 as we
need to allow for httpd's other sub-projects in that /httpd/ namespace.
One minor nit: I thought cvs2svn set the svn:ignore property and tossed the
.cvsignore files? -- justin