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Posted to general@incubator.apache.org by "John D. Ament" <jo...@apache.org> on 2018/04/15 15:10:29 UTC
Default webpages for new podlings
Based on some of the on going discussions, wanted to get opinions on how to
get podling websites bootstrapped a bit easier.
When I review https://incubator.apache.org/guides/sites.html it seems
pretty clear what we expect on a podling website. I'm wondering if during
the bootstrapping phase (first 3 months or so of the project at Apache, in
my mind at least) it would be OK if the podlings website just redirected to
their status page.
This avoid unnecessary 404's for the project, and gives them some time to
move their infrastructure over. Once they have their website up and
running (either migrated or created from scratch) then they can switch the
redirect to point to their actual content.
I would imagine this can be done with a .htaccess file, similar to what's
done for retired podlings.
Thoughts?
Re: Default webpages for new podlings
Posted by Dave Fisher <da...@comcast.net>.
Sent from my iPhone
>> On Apr 15, 2018, at 11:50 PM, Greg Stein <gs...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> On Sun, Apr 15, 2018 at 9:30 PM, Ted Dunning <te...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> On Sun, Apr 15, 2018 at 12:37 PM, Dave Fisher <da...@comcast.net>
>> wrote:
>>> Hi -
>>>
>>> I think that a brand compliant initial podling page would not be hard to
>>> create using the Apache CMS.
>
> The CMS is deprecated.
Then documentation which lists it as the first option must be updated. [1]
> No podlings/TLPs can choose to set up sites on the
> CMS any more. Existing CMS sites are grandfathered, and allowed to continue
> operating. Our hope is they will migrate, but we have not started a program
> (yet) to actively attempt to incent communities to migrate away from the
> CMS.
This is a debate for another time on another list. It is a debate I do not want to have, ever.
<rant erased>
Regards,
Dave
[1] http://www.apache.org/dev/project-site.html
>
>
>> The problem I have with that is that it encourages further use of CMS and
>> also that CMS is hard for people to learn because the standard practice is
>> so far from how web-sites are normally done. Better to give them a Jekyll
>> prototype to edit from. Or use John's suggestion about a temporary redirect
>> to avoid the 404's but not pretend to be a project web-site alternative.
>
> A redirect to an external site does not provide any information about the
> Apache podling.
>
> Repeat: placeholder page. It should explain the situation. Provide links to
> the incubator and the podling status page, to the original/external site,
> disclaimer, etc. Just one page. Fast set up. Done.
>
> For a community to decide/plan how to move their website and
> edit/workflow/tooling over to the ASF is a long process. Jekyll? Pelican?
> Jbake? ... Buildbot or Jenkins? Markdown, or raw HTML? It is unreasonable
> to assume that will be done within the first week of acceptance into the
> Incubator. But a single page during that first week? Sure.
>
> Going to druid.incubator.a.o and getting redirected to druid.io can create
> a huge misunderstanding. "What? I thought I went to the Apache project?!
> Oh. Guess it isn't an Apache project after all."
>
> One simple page. Explain and disclaim. Provide links.
>
> Cheers,
> -g
Re: Default webpages for new podlings
Posted by Dave Fisher <da...@comcast.net>.
Hi Matt,
It's a little more complex than that. These are users who are often non-English speaking who want to translate plus the full site is about 9GB.
No rush on things just need to discuss with PMC and think it over. See what is really happening now. Any change here is large, very large for the project. Need to do it so that no one goes ballistic like I did when this was first proposed a few years ago.
Regards,
Dave
> On Apr 17, 2018, at 10:09 AM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Can't you still provide patches a pull requests to the asf-site branch for
> example? Or to the docs source itself if it's generated.
>
> On 16 April 2018 at 20:57, Dave Fisher <da...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>> Hi -
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>>> On Apr 16, 2018, at 5:13 PM, Greg Stein <gs...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> On Mon, Apr 16, 2018 at 10:21 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz <
>>> bdelacretaz@codeconsult.ch> wrote:
>>>
>>>>> On Mon, Apr 16, 2018 at 4:39 PM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> ...Most places I've seen the CMS still in use was because of svnpubsub,
>>>> not
>>>>> necessarily cms.a.o. We use it to commit the output from
>>>> maven-site-plugin,
>>>>> javadocs, scaladocs, etc. Am I confused here?...
>>>>
>>>> AFAIK both svnpubsub and gitpubsub are fully supported by ASF infra.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Correct.
>>>
>>>
>>>> It's the content management part of the ASF CMS that's deprecated.
>>>
>>>
>>> Grandfathered. No new projects, but projects currently using it, can
>>> continue to do so. We have other priorities, but will eventually get
>> around
>>> to a plan to move everybody off the CMS.
>>
>> Greg - You know which project I’m thinking about - OpenOffice.org. (1) I
>> can see a way to make Jekyll or something similar function for site
>> generation. Since I did the migration in I ought to be able to migrate out.
>> (2) The main challenge is that the CMS provides good in site patching by
>> new contributors on page. Replacing that method of getting new contributors
>> to easily provide patches is the hurdle AFAICT. Has Infra thought about a
>> solution for this?
>>
>> Feel free to move this thread.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Dave
>>
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> Greg
>>> InfraAdmin, ASF
>>
>>
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>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
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>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
Re: Default webpages for new podlings
Posted by Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>.
Can't you still provide patches a pull requests to the asf-site branch for
example? Or to the docs source itself if it's generated.
On 16 April 2018 at 20:57, Dave Fisher <da...@comcast.net> wrote:
> Hi -
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On Apr 16, 2018, at 5:13 PM, Greg Stein <gs...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > On Mon, Apr 16, 2018 at 10:21 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz <
> > bdelacretaz@codeconsult.ch> wrote:
> >
> >>> On Mon, Apr 16, 2018 at 4:39 PM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>> ...Most places I've seen the CMS still in use was because of svnpubsub,
> >> not
> >>> necessarily cms.a.o. We use it to commit the output from
> >> maven-site-plugin,
> >>> javadocs, scaladocs, etc. Am I confused here?...
> >>
> >> AFAIK both svnpubsub and gitpubsub are fully supported by ASF infra.
> >>
> >
> > Correct.
> >
> >
> >> It's the content management part of the ASF CMS that's deprecated.
> >
> >
> > Grandfathered. No new projects, but projects currently using it, can
> > continue to do so. We have other priorities, but will eventually get
> around
> > to a plan to move everybody off the CMS.
>
> Greg - You know which project I’m thinking about - OpenOffice.org. (1) I
> can see a way to make Jekyll or something similar function for site
> generation. Since I did the migration in I ought to be able to migrate out.
> (2) The main challenge is that the CMS provides good in site patching by
> new contributors on page. Replacing that method of getting new contributors
> to easily provide patches is the hurdle AFAICT. Has Infra thought about a
> solution for this?
>
> Feel free to move this thread.
>
> Regards,
> Dave
>
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Greg
> > InfraAdmin, ASF
>
>
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> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
>
--
Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
Re: Default webpages for new podlings
Posted by Roman Shaposhnik <ro...@shaposhnik.org>.
On Tue, Apr 17, 2018 at 11:51 AM, sebb <se...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 17 April 2018 at 19:47, Greg Stein <gs...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Mon, Apr 16, 2018 at 8:57 PM, Dave Fisher <da...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>>...
>>
>>> Greg - You know which project I’m thinking about - OpenOffice.org. (1) I
>>> can see a way to make Jekyll or something similar function for site
>>> generation. Since I did the migration in I ought to be able to migrate out.
>>> (2) The main challenge is that the CMS provides good in site patching by
>>> new contributors on page. Replacing that method of getting new contributors
>>> to easily provide patches is the hurdle AFAICT. Has Infra thought about a
>>> solution for this?
>>>
>>
>> The easiest solution is to place your site source into Git, specifically as
>> part of our "gitbox" program. That will allow for direct editing on
>> github.com. When the edits are saved, then buildbot or jenkins can pick up
>> the change, generate/save the site, and pubsub will pick up the
>> newly-generated change(s) to the site.
>
> How about creating a dummy podling site using this feature?
That, frankly, is an awesome idea!
Thanks,
Roman.
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Re: Default webpages for new podlings
Posted by sebb <se...@gmail.com>.
On 17 April 2018 at 19:47, Greg Stein <gs...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mon, Apr 16, 2018 at 8:57 PM, Dave Fisher <da...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>...
>
>> Greg - You know which project I’m thinking about - OpenOffice.org. (1) I
>> can see a way to make Jekyll or something similar function for site
>> generation. Since I did the migration in I ought to be able to migrate out.
>> (2) The main challenge is that the CMS provides good in site patching by
>> new contributors on page. Replacing that method of getting new contributors
>> to easily provide patches is the hurdle AFAICT. Has Infra thought about a
>> solution for this?
>>
>
> The easiest solution is to place your site source into Git, specifically as
> part of our "gitbox" program. That will allow for direct editing on
> github.com. When the edits are saved, then buildbot or jenkins can pick up
> the change, generate/save the site, and pubsub will pick up the
> newly-generated change(s) to the site.
How about creating a dummy podling site using this feature?
> Cheers,
> -g
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Re: Default webpages for new podlings
Posted by Dave Fisher <da...@comcast.net>.
> On Apr 17, 2018, at 12:27 PM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 17 April 2018 at 13:47, Greg Stein <gs...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> The easiest solution is to place your site source into Git, specifically as
>> part of our "gitbox" program. That will allow for direct editing on
>> github.com. When the edits are saved, then buildbot or jenkins can pick up
>> the change, generate/save the site, and pubsub will pick up the
>> newly-generated change(s) to the site.
>>
>
> This is a clearer explanation of what I was trying to suggest. I didn't
> even consider the GitHub editor feature, though, which would be super handy
> here
Why don’t we create a test gitbox site where anyone with incubator commit bit can experiment?
Regards,
Dave
Re: Default webpages for new podlings
Posted by Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>.
On 17 April 2018 at 13:47, Greg Stein <gs...@gmail.com> wrote:
> The easiest solution is to place your site source into Git, specifically as
> part of our "gitbox" program. That will allow for direct editing on
> github.com. When the edits are saved, then buildbot or jenkins can pick up
> the change, generate/save the site, and pubsub will pick up the
> newly-generated change(s) to the site.
>
This is a clearer explanation of what I was trying to suggest. I didn't
even consider the GitHub editor feature, though, which would be super handy
here!
--
Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
Re: Default webpages for new podlings
Posted by Greg Stein <gs...@gmail.com>.
On Mon, Apr 16, 2018 at 8:57 PM, Dave Fisher <da...@comcast.net> wrote:
>...
> Greg - You know which project I’m thinking about - OpenOffice.org. (1) I
> can see a way to make Jekyll or something similar function for site
> generation. Since I did the migration in I ought to be able to migrate out.
> (2) The main challenge is that the CMS provides good in site patching by
> new contributors on page. Replacing that method of getting new contributors
> to easily provide patches is the hurdle AFAICT. Has Infra thought about a
> solution for this?
>
The easiest solution is to place your site source into Git, specifically as
part of our "gitbox" program. That will allow for direct editing on
github.com. When the edits are saved, then buildbot or jenkins can pick up
the change, generate/save the site, and pubsub will pick up the
newly-generated change(s) to the site.
Cheers,
-g
Re: Default webpages for new podlings
Posted by Dave Fisher <da...@comcast.net>.
Hi -
Sent from my iPhone
> On Apr 16, 2018, at 5:13 PM, Greg Stein <gs...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On Mon, Apr 16, 2018 at 10:21 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz <
> bdelacretaz@codeconsult.ch> wrote:
>
>>> On Mon, Apr 16, 2018 at 4:39 PM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> ...Most places I've seen the CMS still in use was because of svnpubsub,
>> not
>>> necessarily cms.a.o. We use it to commit the output from
>> maven-site-plugin,
>>> javadocs, scaladocs, etc. Am I confused here?...
>>
>> AFAIK both svnpubsub and gitpubsub are fully supported by ASF infra.
>>
>
> Correct.
>
>
>> It's the content management part of the ASF CMS that's deprecated.
>
>
> Grandfathered. No new projects, but projects currently using it, can
> continue to do so. We have other priorities, but will eventually get around
> to a plan to move everybody off the CMS.
Greg - You know which project I’m thinking about - OpenOffice.org. (1) I can see a way to make Jekyll or something similar function for site generation. Since I did the migration in I ought to be able to migrate out. (2) The main challenge is that the CMS provides good in site patching by new contributors on page. Replacing that method of getting new contributors to easily provide patches is the hurdle AFAICT. Has Infra thought about a solution for this?
Feel free to move this thread.
Regards,
Dave
>
> Cheers,
> Greg
> InfraAdmin, ASF
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Re: Default webpages for new podlings
Posted by Greg Stein <gs...@gmail.com>.
On Mon, Apr 16, 2018 at 10:21 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz <
bdelacretaz@codeconsult.ch> wrote:
> On Mon, Apr 16, 2018 at 4:39 PM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > ...Most places I've seen the CMS still in use was because of svnpubsub,
> not
> > necessarily cms.a.o. We use it to commit the output from
> maven-site-plugin,
> > javadocs, scaladocs, etc. Am I confused here?...
>
> AFAIK both svnpubsub and gitpubsub are fully supported by ASF infra.
>
Correct.
> It's the content management part of the ASF CMS that's deprecated.
Grandfathered. No new projects, but projects currently using it, can
continue to do so. We have other priorities, but will eventually get around
to a plan to move everybody off the CMS.
Cheers,
Greg
InfraAdmin, ASF
Re: Default webpages for new podlings
Posted by Daniel Gruno <hu...@apache.org>.
On 04/16/2018 07:14 PM, Gian Merlino wrote:
> Is there any ASF infra that would be usable for automatically running
> Jekyll on the master branch and pushing the results to the "asf-git"
> branch, where they can be served? Maybe CI/build infra, if we have that? It
> would provide an experience that is somewhat like GitHub pages.
You have your choice of either buildbot or jenkins - both work and
produce web sites for many projects already.
>
> On Mon, Apr 16, 2018 at 9:53 AM, Julian Hyde <jh...@apache.org> wrote:
>
>> Just to clarify, in case people are not familiar with Jekyll. It is a code
>> generator that a developer runs in their sandbox, and it generates the
>> site. The developer then checks in the site to git or svn.
>>
>> So, the developer has complete control over the HTML that is checked in.
>> They can manually post-process the files produced by Jekyll, if they wish.
>>
>> Jekyll is not in the code path running on ASF infrastructure that serves
>> the site. The ASF infra just sees HTML, CSS style sheets and images.
>>
>> Julian
>>
>>
>>> On Apr 16, 2018, at 8:21 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz <
>> bdelacretaz@codeconsult.ch> wrote:
>>>
>>> On Mon, Apr 16, 2018 at 4:39 PM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> ...Most places I've seen the CMS still in use was because of svnpubsub,
>> not
>>>> necessarily cms.a.o. We use it to commit the output from
>> maven-site-plugin,
>>>> javadocs, scaladocs, etc. Am I confused here?...
>>>
>>> AFAIK both svnpubsub and gitpubsub are fully supported by ASF infra.
>>>
>>> It's the content management part of the ASF CMS that's deprecated.
>>>
>>> -Bertrand
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>>
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>>
>>
>
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Re: Default webpages for new podlings
Posted by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@codeconsult.ch>.
On Mon, Apr 16, 2018 at 6:53 PM, Julian Hyde <jh...@apache.org> wrote:
> ...The ASF infra just sees HTML, CSS style sheets and images...
Yes, to be more precise in the standard gitpubsub setup it's only the
asf-site branch of the Git repository that's published, without
processing. It can even include .htaccess files for redirects etc.
-Bertrand
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Re: Default webpages for new podlings
Posted by Gian Merlino <gi...@apache.org>.
Is there any ASF infra that would be usable for automatically running
Jekyll on the master branch and pushing the results to the "asf-git"
branch, where they can be served? Maybe CI/build infra, if we have that? It
would provide an experience that is somewhat like GitHub pages.
On Mon, Apr 16, 2018 at 9:53 AM, Julian Hyde <jh...@apache.org> wrote:
> Just to clarify, in case people are not familiar with Jekyll. It is a code
> generator that a developer runs in their sandbox, and it generates the
> site. The developer then checks in the site to git or svn.
>
> So, the developer has complete control over the HTML that is checked in.
> They can manually post-process the files produced by Jekyll, if they wish.
>
> Jekyll is not in the code path running on ASF infrastructure that serves
> the site. The ASF infra just sees HTML, CSS style sheets and images.
>
> Julian
>
>
> > On Apr 16, 2018, at 8:21 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz <
> bdelacretaz@codeconsult.ch> wrote:
> >
> > On Mon, Apr 16, 2018 at 4:39 PM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> ...Most places I've seen the CMS still in use was because of svnpubsub,
> not
> >> necessarily cms.a.o. We use it to commit the output from
> maven-site-plugin,
> >> javadocs, scaladocs, etc. Am I confused here?...
> >
> > AFAIK both svnpubsub and gitpubsub are fully supported by ASF infra.
> >
> > It's the content management part of the ASF CMS that's deprecated.
> >
> > -Bertrand
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
> >
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
>
Re: Default webpages for new podlings
Posted by Julian Hyde <jh...@apache.org>.
Just to clarify, in case people are not familiar with Jekyll. It is a code generator that a developer runs in their sandbox, and it generates the site. The developer then checks in the site to git or svn.
So, the developer has complete control over the HTML that is checked in. They can manually post-process the files produced by Jekyll, if they wish.
Jekyll is not in the code path running on ASF infrastructure that serves the site. The ASF infra just sees HTML, CSS style sheets and images.
Julian
> On Apr 16, 2018, at 8:21 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@codeconsult.ch> wrote:
>
> On Mon, Apr 16, 2018 at 4:39 PM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> ...Most places I've seen the CMS still in use was because of svnpubsub, not
>> necessarily cms.a.o. We use it to commit the output from maven-site-plugin,
>> javadocs, scaladocs, etc. Am I confused here?...
>
> AFAIK both svnpubsub and gitpubsub are fully supported by ASF infra.
>
> It's the content management part of the ASF CMS that's deprecated.
>
> -Bertrand
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
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Re: Default webpages for new podlings
Posted by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@codeconsult.ch>.
On Mon, Apr 16, 2018 at 4:39 PM, Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> ...Most places I've seen the CMS still in use was because of svnpubsub, not
> necessarily cms.a.o. We use it to commit the output from maven-site-plugin,
> javadocs, scaladocs, etc. Am I confused here?...
AFAIK both svnpubsub and gitpubsub are fully supported by ASF infra.
It's the content management part of the ASF CMS that's deprecated.
-Bertrand
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Re: Default webpages for new podlings
Posted by Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>.
Most places I've seen the CMS still in use was because of svnpubsub, not
necessarily cms.a.o. We use it to commit the output from maven-site-plugin,
javadocs, scaladocs, etc. Am I confused here?
On 16 April 2018 at 07:27, John D. Ament <jo...@apache.org> wrote:
> On Mon, Apr 16, 2018 at 7:04 AM Bertrand Delacretaz <
> bdelacretaz@codeconsult.ch> wrote:
>
> > On Mon, Apr 16, 2018 at 12:26 PM, John D. Ament <jo...@apache.org>
> > wrote:
> > > ...FWIW, Jekyll is pretty heavily used across projects....
> >
> > Yes, it's good to have a suggested default for this.
> >
> > OTOH the nice thing about the current setup is that people can use
> > whatever tool they want to create content: from emacs^H^H^H^H^H vi to
> > Jekyll, JBake, Pelican and many others there's choice depending on
> > people's preferences and that's great.
> >
>
> I don't believe this precludes using other tools. One of the things I
> learned from how ASF did CMS, its very useful to have a common entry
> point. If everything remains wrapped in a checked in build script
> (Jenkinsfile, shell script or otherwise) to avoid impacting your build
> tool, you're fine using the programming model.
>
>
> >
> > -Bertrand
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
> >
> >
>
--
Matt Sicker <bo...@gmail.com>
Re: Default webpages for new podlings
Posted by "John D. Ament" <jo...@apache.org>.
On Mon, Apr 16, 2018 at 7:04 AM Bertrand Delacretaz <
bdelacretaz@codeconsult.ch> wrote:
> On Mon, Apr 16, 2018 at 12:26 PM, John D. Ament <jo...@apache.org>
> wrote:
> > ...FWIW, Jekyll is pretty heavily used across projects....
>
> Yes, it's good to have a suggested default for this.
>
> OTOH the nice thing about the current setup is that people can use
> whatever tool they want to create content: from emacs^H^H^H^H^H vi to
> Jekyll, JBake, Pelican and many others there's choice depending on
> people's preferences and that's great.
>
I don't believe this precludes using other tools. One of the things I
learned from how ASF did CMS, its very useful to have a common entry
point. If everything remains wrapped in a checked in build script
(Jenkinsfile, shell script or otherwise) to avoid impacting your build
tool, you're fine using the programming model.
>
> -Bertrand
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
>
>
Re: Default webpages for new podlings
Posted by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@codeconsult.ch>.
On Mon, Apr 16, 2018 at 12:26 PM, John D. Ament <jo...@apache.org> wrote:
> ...FWIW, Jekyll is pretty heavily used across projects....
Yes, it's good to have a suggested default for this.
OTOH the nice thing about the current setup is that people can use
whatever tool they want to create content: from emacs^H^H^H^H^H vi to
Jekyll, JBake, Pelican and many others there's choice depending on
people's preferences and that's great.
-Bertrand
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Re: Default webpages for new podlings
Posted by "John D. Ament" <jo...@apache.org>.
On Mon, Apr 16, 2018 at 5:57 AM sebb <se...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 16 April 2018 at 10:39, Bertrand Delacretaz
> <bd...@codeconsult.ch> wrote:
> > On Mon, Apr 16, 2018 at 11:20 AM, sebb <se...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>... Podlings can create a simple page in Git/SVN, however it won't be
> >> displayed without some Infra setup to copy the html from the SCM to
> >> the host...
> >
> > Granted but that's quite easy to do from the podling's side: just push
> > the content to the asf-site branch of a Git repository and ask infra
> > to activate the sync as in
> > https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-12311
>
> Yes, it is simple but it is one other job to do.
> And it cannot be done by Infra until it is known what SCM they are want to
> use.
>
And that goes back to my original statement about solutions - we tell them
what to do. Infra has tools in place. They've deprecated old tools and
want new tools to be used, so we make that the norm for podlings. Assuming
no build requirement, we seed a git repo from the apache-website-template
and have them fill it in with info, or create a skeleton off of
apache-website-template that has it done.
I'm even inclined to think forking apache-website-template to
incubator-podling-template makes the most sense, and make the edits there.
It would have all of the branches set up and a base page that infra can
point to.
FWIW, Jekyll is pretty heavily used across projects. I didn't use it for
the incubator website due to the file parsing that's needed, but for the
static content it would be fine.
>
> > How that content is generated does not matter, in a pinch you could
> > just edit a single index.html file manually in that asf-site branch
> > and be done with it.
>
> > -Bertrand
> >
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Re: Default webpages for new podlings
Posted by sebb <se...@gmail.com>.
On 16 April 2018 at 10:39, Bertrand Delacretaz
<bd...@codeconsult.ch> wrote:
> On Mon, Apr 16, 2018 at 11:20 AM, sebb <se...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>... Podlings can create a simple page in Git/SVN, however it won't be
>> displayed without some Infra setup to copy the html from the SCM to
>> the host...
>
> Granted but that's quite easy to do from the podling's side: just push
> the content to the asf-site branch of a Git repository and ask infra
> to activate the sync as in
> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-12311
Yes, it is simple but it is one other job to do.
And it cannot be done by Infra until it is known what SCM they are want to use.
> How that content is generated does not matter, in a pinch you could
> just edit a single index.html file manually in that asf-site branch
> and be done with it.
> -Bertrand
>
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Re: Default webpages for new podlings
Posted by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@codeconsult.ch>.
On Mon, Apr 16, 2018 at 11:20 AM, sebb <se...@gmail.com> wrote:
>... Podlings can create a simple page in Git/SVN, however it won't be
> displayed without some Infra setup to copy the html from the SCM to
> the host...
Granted but that's quite easy to do from the podling's side: just push
the content to the asf-site branch of a Git repository and ask infra
to activate the sync as in
https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-12311
How that content is generated does not matter, in a pinch you could
just edit a single index.html file manually in that asf-site branch
and be done with it.
-Bertrand
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Re: Default webpages for new podlings
Posted by sebb <se...@gmail.com>.
On 16 April 2018 at 09:34, Bertrand Delacretaz
<bd...@codeconsult.ch> wrote:
> On Mon, Apr 16, 2018 at 8:50 AM, Greg Stein <gs...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> ...placeholder page. It should explain the situation. Provide links to
>> the incubator and the podling status page, to the original/external site,
>> disclaimer, etc. Just one page. Fast set up. Done...
>
> Yes, BIG +1 to this.
>
> It's not hard to create a single-page site using Jekyll or any of the
> many site generators around. As Greg says, just a few links and brief
> status information, but each podling should have an editable website
> on their apache.org domain very early in incubation. Even if it's a
> single ugly page.
Podlings can create a simple page in Git/SVN, however it won't be
displayed without some Infra setup to copy the html from the SCM to
the host.
Perhaps this needs to be done as part of the initial process of
creating a podling?
Or maybe there could be a temporary holding area under the incubator
SVN tree with RW access for all incubator committers.
The podling website could redirect to that if present. Once the new
site was available, the temporary one would be removed.
> -Bertrand
>
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Re: Default webpages for new podlings
Posted by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@codeconsult.ch>.
On Mon, Apr 16, 2018 at 8:50 AM, Greg Stein <gs...@gmail.com> wrote:
> ...placeholder page. It should explain the situation. Provide links to
> the incubator and the podling status page, to the original/external site,
> disclaimer, etc. Just one page. Fast set up. Done...
Yes, BIG +1 to this.
It's not hard to create a single-page site using Jekyll or any of the
many site generators around. As Greg says, just a few links and brief
status information, but each podling should have an editable website
on their apache.org domain very early in incubation. Even if it's a
single ugly page.
-Bertrand
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Re: Default webpages for new podlings
Posted by Greg Stein <gs...@gmail.com>.
On Sun, Apr 15, 2018 at 9:30 PM, Ted Dunning <te...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sun, Apr 15, 2018 at 12:37 PM, Dave Fisher <da...@comcast.net>
> wrote:
> > Hi -
> >
> > I think that a brand compliant initial podling page would not be hard to
> > create using the Apache CMS.
>
The CMS is deprecated. No podlings/TLPs can choose to set up sites on the
CMS any more. Existing CMS sites are grandfathered, and allowed to continue
operating. Our hope is they will migrate, but we have not started a program
(yet) to actively attempt to incent communities to migrate away from the
CMS.
> The problem I have with that is that it encourages further use of CMS and
> also that CMS is hard for people to learn because the standard practice is
> so far from how web-sites are normally done. Better to give them a Jekyll
> prototype to edit from. Or use John's suggestion about a temporary redirect
> to avoid the 404's but not pretend to be a project web-site alternative.
>
A redirect to an external site does not provide any information about the
Apache podling.
Repeat: placeholder page. It should explain the situation. Provide links to
the incubator and the podling status page, to the original/external site,
disclaimer, etc. Just one page. Fast set up. Done.
For a community to decide/plan how to move their website and
edit/workflow/tooling over to the ASF is a long process. Jekyll? Pelican?
Jbake? ... Buildbot or Jenkins? Markdown, or raw HTML? It is unreasonable
to assume that will be done within the first week of acceptance into the
Incubator. But a single page during that first week? Sure.
Going to druid.incubator.a.o and getting redirected to druid.io can create
a huge misunderstanding. "What? I thought I went to the Apache project?!
Oh. Guess it isn't an Apache project after all."
One simple page. Explain and disclaim. Provide links.
Cheers,
-g
Re: Default webpages for new podlings
Posted by Luciano Resende <lu...@gmail.com>.
On Sun, Apr 15, 2018 at 8:15 PM, Julian Hyde <jh...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Luciano created a Jekyll prototype a year or so ago. Let’s dust that off.
>
> Julian
>
>
Here is the link:
https://github.com/apache/apache-website-template
--
Luciano Resende
http://twitter.com/lresende1975
http://lresende.blogspot.com/
Re: Default webpages for new podlings
Posted by William Guo <gu...@apache.org>.
griffin is using the same tech for site generator.
check the repo if you would like to
https://github.com/apache/incubator-griffin-site
Thanks,
William
On Mon, Apr 16, 2018 at 1:38 PM, Ted Dunning <te...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Dave,
>
> You probably already know enough to use Jekyll.
>
> It is just a markdown to HTML translator. It is what github uses, as I
> remember.
>
>
>
> On Sun, Apr 15, 2018 at 8:31 PM, Dave Fisher <da...@comcast.net>
> wrote:
>
> > I’m always willing to learn new tools.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Dave
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >
> > > On Apr 15, 2018, at 8:15 PM, Julian Hyde <jh...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > >
> > > Luciano created a Jekyll prototype a year or so ago. Let’s dust that
> > off.
> > >
> > > Julian
> > >
> > >>> On Apr 15, 2018, at 19:30, Ted Dunning <te...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>> On Sun, Apr 15, 2018 at 12:37 PM, Dave Fisher <dave2wave@comcast.net
> >
> > wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>> Hi -
> > >>>
> > >>> I think that a brand compliant initial podling page would not be hard
> > to
> > >>> create using the Apache CMS.
> > >>
> > >> The problem I have with that is that it encourages further use of CMS
> > and
> > >> also that CMS is hard for people to learn because the standard
> practice
> > is
> > >> so far from how web-sites are normally done. Better to give them a
> > Jekyll
> > >> prototype to edit from. Or use John's suggestion about a temporary
> > redirect
> > >> to avoid the 404's but not pretend to be a project web-site
> alternative.
> > >
> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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> > > For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
> > >
> >
> >
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>
Re: Default webpages for new podlings
Posted by Ted Dunning <te...@gmail.com>.
Dave,
You probably already know enough to use Jekyll.
It is just a markdown to HTML translator. It is what github uses, as I
remember.
On Sun, Apr 15, 2018 at 8:31 PM, Dave Fisher <da...@comcast.net> wrote:
> I’m always willing to learn new tools.
>
> Regards,
> Dave
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On Apr 15, 2018, at 8:15 PM, Julian Hyde <jh...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Luciano created a Jekyll prototype a year or so ago. Let’s dust that
> off.
> >
> > Julian
> >
> >>> On Apr 15, 2018, at 19:30, Ted Dunning <te...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> On Sun, Apr 15, 2018 at 12:37 PM, Dave Fisher <da...@comcast.net>
> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Hi -
> >>>
> >>> I think that a brand compliant initial podling page would not be hard
> to
> >>> create using the Apache CMS.
> >>
> >> The problem I have with that is that it encourages further use of CMS
> and
> >> also that CMS is hard for people to learn because the standard practice
> is
> >> so far from how web-sites are normally done. Better to give them a
> Jekyll
> >> prototype to edit from. Or use John's suggestion about a temporary
> redirect
> >> to avoid the 404's but not pretend to be a project web-site alternative.
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@incubator.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@incubator.apache.org
> >
>
>
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>
>
Re: Default webpages for new podlings
Posted by Dave Fisher <da...@comcast.net>.
I’m always willing to learn new tools.
Regards,
Dave
Sent from my iPhone
> On Apr 15, 2018, at 8:15 PM, Julian Hyde <jh...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Luciano created a Jekyll prototype a year or so ago. Let’s dust that off.
>
> Julian
>
>>> On Apr 15, 2018, at 19:30, Ted Dunning <te...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> On Sun, Apr 15, 2018 at 12:37 PM, Dave Fisher <da...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi -
>>>
>>> I think that a brand compliant initial podling page would not be hard to
>>> create using the Apache CMS.
>>
>> The problem I have with that is that it encourages further use of CMS and
>> also that CMS is hard for people to learn because the standard practice is
>> so far from how web-sites are normally done. Better to give them a Jekyll
>> prototype to edit from. Or use John's suggestion about a temporary redirect
>> to avoid the 404's but not pretend to be a project web-site alternative.
>
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Re: Default webpages for new podlings
Posted by Julian Hyde <jh...@gmail.com>.
Luciano created a Jekyll prototype a year or so ago. Let’s dust that off.
Julian
> On Apr 15, 2018, at 19:30, Ted Dunning <te...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Sun, Apr 15, 2018 at 12:37 PM, Dave Fisher <da...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>
>> Hi -
>>
>> I think that a brand compliant initial podling page would not be hard to
>> create using the Apache CMS.
>>
>
> The problem I have with that is that it encourages further use of CMS and
> also that CMS is hard for people to learn because the standard practice is
> so far from how web-sites are normally done. Better to give them a Jekyll
> prototype to edit from. Or use John's suggestion about a temporary redirect
> to avoid the 404's but not pretend to be a project web-site alternative.
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Re: Default webpages for new podlings
Posted by Ted Dunning <te...@gmail.com>.
On Sun, Apr 15, 2018 at 12:37 PM, Dave Fisher <da...@comcast.net> wrote:
> Hi -
>
> I think that a brand compliant initial podling page would not be hard to
> create using the Apache CMS.
>
The problem I have with that is that it encourages further use of CMS and
also that CMS is hard for people to learn because the standard practice is
so far from how web-sites are normally done. Better to give them a Jekyll
prototype to edit from. Or use John's suggestion about a temporary redirect
to avoid the 404's but not pretend to be a project web-site alternative.
Re: Default webpages for new podlings
Posted by Dave Fisher <da...@comcast.net>.
Hi -
I think that a brand compliant initial podling page would not be hard to create using the Apache CMS.
This could have two simple pages that would show a compliant examples:
(1) Index page with all of the appropriate links to both podling Mailing lists, Download placeholder, Apache Branding [1][2], and following Site instructions on [3]
(2) Download page that shows how to both refer to pre-Incubation legacy releases and how to properly use Apache Dist and closer.lua.
By giving a simple example we get projects going. Not all projects are going to want to spend much time on the website so a start is important.
Regards,
Dave
[1] https://www.apache.org/foundation/marks/pmcs#navigation <https://www.apache.org/foundation/marks/pmcs#navigation>
[2] https://www.apache.org/foundation/marks/pmcs#attributions <https://www.apache.org/foundation/marks/pmcs#attributions>
[3] http://www.apache.org/dev/project-site.html <http://www.apache.org/dev/project-site.html>
> On Apr 15, 2018, at 9:25 AM, John D. Ament <jo...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> I don't believe that linking to the status page would satisfy the website
> requirement, but solves the 404 issue. At least in my mind it wouldn't get
> them out of needing a website. I put out three months because that's
> that's the longest I've seen the bootstrapping to take. To make sure I'm
> being clear - I'm only trying to help solve the 404 issue.
>
> I think what we need to offer though is a complete solution. From the
> podlings I've dealt with, keeping revision history on websites is usually
> not helpful. If we had a way to retain it great, and may end up being part
> of their on boarding. Seeding them though with a website repository + the
> necessary branches to maintain the website would be helpful in kick
> starting that process. They then have a base to build from. It could be
> that we create this skeleton and some tips (I may have already written them
> down somewhere).
>
> John
>
> On Sun, Apr 15, 2018 at 11:39 AM Kevin A. McGrail <km...@apache.org>
> wrote:
>
>> I think this is a great day one idea but by 3 months,.the project should be
>> having a website to start that ball rolling. This might be too much of a
>> crutch.
>>
>> On Sun, Apr 15, 2018, 11:10 John D. Ament <jo...@apache.org> wrote:
>>
>>> Based on some of the on going discussions, wanted to get opinions on how
>> to
>>> get podling websites bootstrapped a bit easier.
>>>
>>> When I review https://incubator.apache.org/guides/sites.html it seems
>>> pretty clear what we expect on a podling website. I'm wondering if
>> during
>>> the bootstrapping phase (first 3 months or so of the project at Apache,
>> in
>>> my mind at least) it would be OK if the podlings website just redirected
>> to
>>> their status page.
>>>
>>> This avoid unnecessary 404's for the project, and gives them some time to
>>> move their infrastructure over. Once they have their website up and
>>> running (either migrated or created from scratch) then they can switch
>> the
>>> redirect to point to their actual content.
>>>
>>> I would imagine this can be done with a .htaccess file, similar to what's
>>> done for retired podlings.
>>>
>>> Thoughts?
>>>
>>
Re: Default webpages for new podlings
Posted by "John D. Ament" <jo...@apache.org>.
I don't believe that linking to the status page would satisfy the website
requirement, but solves the 404 issue. At least in my mind it wouldn't get
them out of needing a website. I put out three months because that's
that's the longest I've seen the bootstrapping to take. To make sure I'm
being clear - I'm only trying to help solve the 404 issue.
I think what we need to offer though is a complete solution. From the
podlings I've dealt with, keeping revision history on websites is usually
not helpful. If we had a way to retain it great, and may end up being part
of their on boarding. Seeding them though with a website repository + the
necessary branches to maintain the website would be helpful in kick
starting that process. They then have a base to build from. It could be
that we create this skeleton and some tips (I may have already written them
down somewhere).
John
On Sun, Apr 15, 2018 at 11:39 AM Kevin A. McGrail <km...@apache.org>
wrote:
> I think this is a great day one idea but by 3 months,.the project should be
> having a website to start that ball rolling. This might be too much of a
> crutch.
>
> On Sun, Apr 15, 2018, 11:10 John D. Ament <jo...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> > Based on some of the on going discussions, wanted to get opinions on how
> to
> > get podling websites bootstrapped a bit easier.
> >
> > When I review https://incubator.apache.org/guides/sites.html it seems
> > pretty clear what we expect on a podling website. I'm wondering if
> during
> > the bootstrapping phase (first 3 months or so of the project at Apache,
> in
> > my mind at least) it would be OK if the podlings website just redirected
> to
> > their status page.
> >
> > This avoid unnecessary 404's for the project, and gives them some time to
> > move their infrastructure over. Once they have their website up and
> > running (either migrated or created from scratch) then they can switch
> the
> > redirect to point to their actual content.
> >
> > I would imagine this can be done with a .htaccess file, similar to what's
> > done for retired podlings.
> >
> > Thoughts?
> >
>
Re: Default webpages for new podlings
Posted by "Kevin A. McGrail" <km...@apache.org>.
I think this is a great day one idea but by 3 months,.the project should be
having a website to start that ball rolling. This might be too much of a
crutch.
On Sun, Apr 15, 2018, 11:10 John D. Ament <jo...@apache.org> wrote:
> Based on some of the on going discussions, wanted to get opinions on how to
> get podling websites bootstrapped a bit easier.
>
> When I review https://incubator.apache.org/guides/sites.html it seems
> pretty clear what we expect on a podling website. I'm wondering if during
> the bootstrapping phase (first 3 months or so of the project at Apache, in
> my mind at least) it would be OK if the podlings website just redirected to
> their status page.
>
> This avoid unnecessary 404's for the project, and gives them some time to
> move their infrastructure over. Once they have their website up and
> running (either migrated or created from scratch) then they can switch the
> redirect to point to their actual content.
>
> I would imagine this can be done with a .htaccess file, similar to what's
> done for retired podlings.
>
> Thoughts?
>
Re: Default webpages for new podlings
Posted by Julian Hyde <jh...@apache.org>.
A template paragraph of simple HTML seems ideal, and it’s reasonable to expect podlings to create it by the time of their first board report.
A full branding-compliant web site is a more complex undertaking, and we the IPMC should not try to hurry that process. The podling's interests are aligned with ours: they want to build a community, so they know they need a good web site. They can decide whether the web site happens before or after their first release.
Druid is one of the podlings where this issue arose recently. They are one of those projects that has a vibrant existing developer and user community. We IPMC members ask them to quickly migrate their existing site (https://druid.io <https://druid.io/>) and lists (druid-user@googlegroups.com <ma...@googlegroups.com>) and they push back. Why? Because they have learned the principal tenet of the Apache Way - community comes first.
As mentors I think we should facilitate the move to Apache infra, teach them how to comply with branding, but mainly trust them to do what is right for their project.
Julian
> On Apr 15, 2018, at 12:32 PM, Nick Kew <ni...@apache.org> wrote:
>
>
>> This avoid unnecessary 404's for the project, and gives them some time to
>> move their infrastructure over. Once they have their website up and
>> running (either migrated or created from scratch) then they can switch the
>> redirect to point to their actual content.
>
> I have a (not necessarily accurate) recollection of adding a placeholder page
> in a polling setup. It basically said
>
> This is a placeholder for $podling {one-line description}.
> For more information, please see
> * incubation proposal
> * status page
> * resources (lists, repos)
> * pre-apache project page.
>
> I’m sure something like that could be templated for new podlings?
>
> —
> Nick Kew
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Re: Default webpages for new podlings
Posted by Nick Kew <ni...@apache.org>.
> This avoid unnecessary 404's for the project, and gives them some time to
> move their infrastructure over. Once they have their website up and
> running (either migrated or created from scratch) then they can switch the
> redirect to point to their actual content.
I have a (not necessarily accurate) recollection of adding a placeholder page
in a polling setup. It basically said
This is a placeholder for $podling {one-line description}.
For more information, please see
* incubation proposal
* status page
* resources (lists, repos)
* pre-apache project page.
I’m sure something like that could be templated for new podlings?
—
Nick Kew
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