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Posted to general@incubator.apache.org by Niclas Hedhman <ni...@hedhman.org> on 2008/08/01 05:28:01 UTC
Re: [PROPOSAL] Etch
On Friday 01 August 2008 00:16, James Dixson wrote:
> This a proposal to enter Etch in to the incubator.
>
> See http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/EtchProposal for updates.
>
> In particular, we are looking for an interested Champion.
Well, you are expected to have found a Champion prior to submitting the
proposal, but that is not a blocker.
"Etch" --> Not so sure. "Debian Etch vs Apache Etch, which one is better?"
Doh... I would seek another name.
I like this proposal a lot, probably because of too many fingers burned on
SOAP. The challenge will be community building, and I have two fears;
1. Codebase might be "too good".
2. "At office" discussions on progress.
Well, I am willing to be a Mentor on this podling if accepted. List me as
Champion if you don't get anyone else. And you are effectively requesting the
Incubator PMC to be the Sponsor.
My +1 for Incubation.
Cheers
--
Niclas Hedhman, Software Developer
I live here; http://tinyurl.com/2qq9er
I work here; http://tinyurl.com/2ymelc
I relax here; http://tinyurl.com/2cgsug
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Re: [PROPOSAL] Etch
Posted by Yonik Seeley <yo...@apache.org>.
On Fri, Aug 1, 2008 at 2:23 PM, scott comer (sccomer) <sc...@cisco.com> wrote:
> we might have overdone the committer list here a bit so nobody who made a
> significant contribution felt left out. :-)
Perhaps something like a FAQ entry "What is the history of Etch?" on
the web site would be a more appropriate way to recognize these?
-Yonik
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Re: [PROPOSAL] Etch
Posted by Yonik Seeley <yo...@apache.org>.
+1
-Yonik
On Sat, Aug 9, 2008 at 4:58 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz
<bd...@apache.org> wrote:
> On Fri, Aug 1, 2008 at 8:23 PM, scott comer (sccomer) <sc...@cisco.com> wrote:
>> we might have overdone the committer list here a bit so nobody who made a
>> significant contribution felt left out. :-)...
>
>> ...summary:
>>
>> architecture: scott comer
>> compiler, java and csharp binding: scott comer, gaurav sandhir
>> build: james dixson
>> c binding: james deCocq, rene barazza, youngjin park
>> javascript binding: seth call
>> python binding: james dixson
>> documentation: shy pease...
>
> That's 8 people, as opposed to 14 listed on the proposal.
>
> How about trimming the list to those 8 to start with?
>
> Others can gain committership along the way if they are active - but
> starting with 14 people form the same organization sounds like a high
> hurdle to jump in terms of community diversity.
>
> -Bertrand
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Re: [PROPOSAL] Etch
Posted by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@apache.org>.
On Fri, Aug 1, 2008 at 8:23 PM, scott comer (sccomer) <sc...@cisco.com> wrote:
> we might have overdone the committer list here a bit so nobody who made a
> significant contribution felt left out. :-)...
> ...summary:
>
> architecture: scott comer
> compiler, java and csharp binding: scott comer, gaurav sandhir
> build: james dixson
> c binding: james deCocq, rene barazza, youngjin park
> javascript binding: seth call
> python binding: james dixson
> documentation: shy pease...
That's 8 people, as opposed to 14 listed on the proposal.
How about trimming the list to those 8 to start with?
Others can gain committership along the way if they are active - but
starting with 14 people form the same organization sounds like a high
hurdle to jump in terms of community diversity.
-Bertrand
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Re: [PROPOSAL] Etch
Posted by Robert Burrell Donkin <ro...@gmail.com>.
On 8/1/08, scott comer (sccomer) <sc...@cisco.com> wrote:
> we might have overdone the committer list here a bit so nobody who made
> a significant contribution felt left out. :-)
Having a long committer list is not necessarily bad but projects which
enter with a long list of which only a small number are enthusiastic
and active often find incubation more challenging. For example,
listing someone as a committer means they need to fill in the
paperwork etc and subscribe to the lists. If people have made
significant contributions and are enthusiastic then they will be an
asset. If they aren't interested they the extra names may prove a
burden.
- robert
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Re: [PROPOSAL] Etch
Posted by "scott comer (sccomer)" <sc...@cisco.com>.
we might have overdone the committer list here a bit so nobody who made
a significant contribution felt left out. :-)
(in addition to what james dixson has reported about himself) for the
last two months, the main contributors to the compiler and the java and
csharp bindings (the core) have been gaurav and me. going forward,
support and enhancements to the core would fall mainly on gaurav and me.
manoj ganesan has spent a lot of time working on the core in the past,
and is currently supporting the xml binding and the cuae use of same.
for the last 9 months james deCocq has been working on the c binding.
rene barazza and youngjin park will be contributing to the c binding as
well. seth call has been working on the javascript binding / json
transport. generally patches to the core would be vetted by gaurav and
me, as well as recruiting and mentoring new contributors to the project.
summary:
architecture: scott comer
compiler, java and csharp binding: scott comer, gaurav sandhir
build: james dixson
c binding: james deCocq, rene barazza, youngjin park
javascript binding: seth call
python binding: james dixson
documentation: shy pease
of those, only gaurav and i are full time on the etch project, everyone
else has other duties as well. there is plenty of room for more
contributors on current and future projects:
ruby binding
python binding
web services gateway
web services transport
maven build
automated interop test framework and suite
better testing framework for the compiler
a host of smaller projects
scott out
James Dixson wrote:
> Well, personally I have been heavily involved in or have written outright
> the build system, compiler interface, and ant plug-in. I am currently
> working on a maven mojo and as well as a python binding that has full parity
> with the Java and C# bindings. I am a Manager at Cisco, but I am Developer
> with Etch.
>
> When we were discussing amongst ourselves who to include in the proposal, we
> tried to apply the same criteria regarding merit that we would need to apply
> if we were already an apache project.
>
> All of the folks on the list are folks that have been consistently active in
> Etch development over the last several months, myself included. It does not
> by any means include everyone who has ever touched Etch.
>
> The only small exception to that is Shawn, who was a contributor up until
> July of this year when he actually left Cisco. He still has merit with the
> team, but has not made any contributions to the codebase since leaving. This
> is not for a lack of interest, as the code base has only just recently been
> released as open source. :-)
>
> Btw .. I just realized I had shawn's new email in the proposal but not the
> fact he was no longer with Cisco... I corrected the proposal.
>
> --
> james
>
> On 8/1/08 9:57 AM, "Yonik Seeley" <yo...@apache.org> wrote:
>
>
>> On Fri, Aug 1, 2008 at 5:41 AM, Upayavira <uv...@odoko.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> 14 people from one organisation on the initial committer list looks to
>>> me like a daunting incubation.
>>>
>> Indeed. Which of those people will actually be working on Etch going forward?
>> A quick perusal shows a Manager and a Director of Engineering on that list.
>>
>> -Yonik
>>
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>>
>>
>
>
Re: [PROPOSAL] Etch
Posted by Mike Edwards <mi...@gmail.com>.
Henning,
I'd be grateful if you could explain this further.
When I look at the Etch proposal page, it does not seem that Etch is simply about a wire format, so
I am puzzled by your reply. There are some things I'm clearly not getting about Etch.
Yours, Mike.
Henning Schmiedehausen wrote:
> From my understanding, Tuscany could leverage Etch to offer a wire
> format that can be consumed by a variety of different languages and
> environments, not a contestant to it.
>
> Ciao
> Henning
>
>
>
> Mike Edwards schrieb:
>> Folks,
>>
>> Can I ask if anyone has compared Etch with Apache Tuscany and the SCA
>> specifications?
>>
>>
>> Yours, Mike.
>>
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>
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Re: [PROPOSAL] Etch
Posted by Henning Schmiedehausen <he...@apache.org>.
From my understanding, Tuscany could leverage Etch to offer a wire
format that can be consumed by a variety of different languages and
environments, not a contestant to it.
Ciao
Henning
Mike Edwards schrieb:
> Folks,
>
> Can I ask if anyone has compared Etch with Apache Tuscany and the SCA
> specifications?
>
>
> Yours, Mike.
>
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Re: [PROPOSAL] Etch
Posted by Mike Edwards <mi...@gmail.com>.
Folks,
Can I ask if anyone has compared Etch with Apache Tuscany and the SCA specifications?
Yours, Mike.
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Re: [PROPOSAL] Etch
Posted by James Dixson <ja...@cisco.com>.
Well, personally I have been heavily involved in or have written outright
the build system, compiler interface, and ant plug-in. I am currently
working on a maven mojo and as well as a python binding that has full parity
with the Java and C# bindings. I am a Manager at Cisco, but I am Developer
with Etch.
When we were discussing amongst ourselves who to include in the proposal, we
tried to apply the same criteria regarding merit that we would need to apply
if we were already an apache project.
All of the folks on the list are folks that have been consistently active in
Etch development over the last several months, myself included. It does not
by any means include everyone who has ever touched Etch.
The only small exception to that is Shawn, who was a contributor up until
July of this year when he actually left Cisco. He still has merit with the
team, but has not made any contributions to the codebase since leaving. This
is not for a lack of interest, as the code base has only just recently been
released as open source. :-)
Btw .. I just realized I had shawn's new email in the proposal but not the
fact he was no longer with Cisco... I corrected the proposal.
--
james
On 8/1/08 9:57 AM, "Yonik Seeley" <yo...@apache.org> wrote:
> On Fri, Aug 1, 2008 at 5:41 AM, Upayavira <uv...@odoko.co.uk> wrote:
>> 14 people from one organisation on the initial committer list looks to
>> me like a daunting incubation.
>
> Indeed. Which of those people will actually be working on Etch going forward?
> A quick perusal shows a Manager and a Director of Engineering on that list.
>
> -Yonik
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
--
James Dixson
Manager, Software Development
CUAE Engineering, Cisco Systems
(e) jadixson@cisco.com
(p) 512-336-3305
(m) 512-968-2116
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Re: [PROPOSAL] Etch
Posted by Yonik Seeley <yo...@apache.org>.
On Fri, Aug 1, 2008 at 5:41 AM, Upayavira <uv...@odoko.co.uk> wrote:
> 14 people from one organisation on the initial committer list looks to
> me like a daunting incubation.
Indeed. Which of those people will actually be working on Etch going forward?
A quick perusal shows a Manager and a Director of Engineering on that list.
-Yonik
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Re: [PROPOSAL] Etch
Posted by Upayavira <uv...@odoko.co.uk>.
14 people from one organisation on the initial committer list looks to
me like a daunting incubation. To get some level of independence from
Cisco, that will mean recruiting at least 14 new committers. That is a
major task.
I see Shindig having the same issue - it is moving fast, and developing
well, but still with a strong Google contingent, and it will take quite
some time before that changes significantly.
So, with 14 initial committers from one org, I'd expect incubation to be
very slow.
Upayavira
On Fri, 2008-08-01 at 11:29 +0200, Henning Schmiedehausen wrote:
> You adressed the two concerns that I have, too, thanks.
>
> - The name. "Debian Etch" is a deeply engrained meme with the "Etch"
> short cut.
>
> - Office disussions. Projects where a large number of committers are
> from the same organization and that also have this company being
> invested in the project might fall into the "watercooler discussion"
> trap. Or into the "this is a patch for <foo>, I discussed and reviewed
> it with <few other committers> and they think it is fine" problem, where
> the review and discussion happened off the mailing list.
>
> It is definitely painful if you have the large majority of committers
> and contributors in the office to still send out stuff to the mailing
> lists, wait for people in other time zones to catch up and then go
> ahead. In fast moving projects (I'm talking about you, Shindig
> people. ;-) ), the aspect of a global distributed community sometimes
> gets forgotten if you have all the relevant people in the next room. So
> this is something that should be watched during incubation.
>
> Apart from that: Wow, cool product. +1 for incubation.
>
> Ciao
> Henning
>
>
> On Fri, 2008-08-01 at 11:28 +0800, Niclas Hedhman wrote:
> > On Friday 01 August 2008 00:16, James Dixson wrote:
> > > This a proposal to enter Etch in to the incubator.
> > >
> > > See http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/EtchProposal for updates.
> > >
> > > In particular, we are looking for an interested Champion.
> >
> > Well, you are expected to have found a Champion prior to submitting the
> > proposal, but that is not a blocker.
> >
> > "Etch" --> Not so sure. "Debian Etch vs Apache Etch, which one is better?"
> > Doh... I would seek another name.
> >
> > I like this proposal a lot, probably because of too many fingers burned on
> > SOAP. The challenge will be community building, and I have two fears;
> > 1. Codebase might be "too good".
> > 2. "At office" discussions on progress.
> >
> > Well, I am willing to be a Mentor on this podling if accepted. List me as
> > Champion if you don't get anyone else. And you are effectively requesting the
> > Incubator PMC to be the Sponsor.
> >
> >
> > My +1 for Incubation.
> >
> >
> > Cheers
>
>
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Re: [PROPOSAL] Etch
Posted by James Dixson <ja...@cisco.com>.
The watercooler problem is real, but addressable. We accept that in order
for a community around Etch to grow, communication has to be open. Much of
our communication and discussion about Etch has been mediated over email as
our intramural community is geographically distributed. It is not a stretch
for us to change our primary discussion mailers.
--
james
On 8/1/08 4:29 AM, "Henning Schmiedehausen" <he...@apache.org> wrote:
> You adressed the two concerns that I have, too, thanks.
>
> - The name. "Debian Etch" is a deeply engrained meme with the "Etch"
> short cut.
>
> - Office disussions. Projects where a large number of committers are
> from the same organization and that also have this company being
> invested in the project might fall into the "watercooler discussion"
> trap. Or into the "this is a patch for <foo>, I discussed and reviewed
> it with <few other committers> and they think it is fine" problem, where
> the review and discussion happened off the mailing list.
>
> It is definitely painful if you have the large majority of committers
> and contributors in the office to still send out stuff to the mailing
> lists, wait for people in other time zones to catch up and then go
> ahead. In fast moving projects (I'm talking about you, Shindig
> people. ;-) ), the aspect of a global distributed community sometimes
> gets forgotten if you have all the relevant people in the next room. So
> this is something that should be watched during incubation.
>
> Apart from that: Wow, cool product. +1 for incubation.
>
> Ciao
> Henning
>
>
> On Fri, 2008-08-01 at 11:28 +0800, Niclas Hedhman wrote:
>> On Friday 01 August 2008 00:16, James Dixson wrote:
>>> This a proposal to enter Etch in to the incubator.
>>>
>>> See http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/EtchProposal for updates.
>>>
>>> In particular, we are looking for an interested Champion.
>>
>> Well, you are expected to have found a Champion prior to submitting the
>> proposal, but that is not a blocker.
>>
>> "Etch" --> Not so sure. "Debian Etch vs Apache Etch, which one is better?"
>> Doh... I would seek another name.
>>
>> I like this proposal a lot, probably because of too many fingers burned on
>> SOAP. The challenge will be community building, and I have two fears;
>> 1. Codebase might be "too good".
>> 2. "At office" discussions on progress.
>>
>> Well, I am willing to be a Mentor on this podling if accepted. List me as
>> Champion if you don't get anyone else. And you are effectively requesting the
>> Incubator PMC to be the Sponsor.
>>
>>
>> My +1 for Incubation.
>>
>>
>> Cheers
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
--
James Dixson
Manager, Software Development
CUAE Engineering, Cisco Systems
(e) jadixson@cisco.com
(p) 512-336-3305
(m) 512-968-2116
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Re: [PROPOSAL] Etch
Posted by Henning Schmiedehausen <he...@apache.org>.
You adressed the two concerns that I have, too, thanks.
- The name. "Debian Etch" is a deeply engrained meme with the "Etch"
short cut.
- Office disussions. Projects where a large number of committers are
from the same organization and that also have this company being
invested in the project might fall into the "watercooler discussion"
trap. Or into the "this is a patch for <foo>, I discussed and reviewed
it with <few other committers> and they think it is fine" problem, where
the review and discussion happened off the mailing list.
It is definitely painful if you have the large majority of committers
and contributors in the office to still send out stuff to the mailing
lists, wait for people in other time zones to catch up and then go
ahead. In fast moving projects (I'm talking about you, Shindig
people. ;-) ), the aspect of a global distributed community sometimes
gets forgotten if you have all the relevant people in the next room. So
this is something that should be watched during incubation.
Apart from that: Wow, cool product. +1 for incubation.
Ciao
Henning
On Fri, 2008-08-01 at 11:28 +0800, Niclas Hedhman wrote:
> On Friday 01 August 2008 00:16, James Dixson wrote:
> > This a proposal to enter Etch in to the incubator.
> >
> > See http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/EtchProposal for updates.
> >
> > In particular, we are looking for an interested Champion.
>
> Well, you are expected to have found a Champion prior to submitting the
> proposal, but that is not a blocker.
>
> "Etch" --> Not so sure. "Debian Etch vs Apache Etch, which one is better?"
> Doh... I would seek another name.
>
> I like this proposal a lot, probably because of too many fingers burned on
> SOAP. The challenge will be community building, and I have two fears;
> 1. Codebase might be "too good".
> 2. "At office" discussions on progress.
>
> Well, I am willing to be a Mentor on this podling if accepted. List me as
> Champion if you don't get anyone else. And you are effectively requesting the
> Incubator PMC to be the Sponsor.
>
>
> My +1 for Incubation.
>
>
> Cheers
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Re: [PROPOSAL] Etch
Posted by "Louis R. Marascio" <lo...@fitnr.com>.
Niclas Hedhman <ni...@hedhman.org> wrote:
>On Friday 01 August 2008 21:10, James Dixson wrote:
>> I am a bit confused though about the "too good" concern, I do not think I
>> understand what you mean. Could you elaborate?
>
>I think it was Stefano Mazzocchi who said about community building, that the
>only "Bad Code + Great Vision" will succeed in building strong communities.
>It refers to the fact that there must be "itches to scratch" for a lot of
>people, otherwise they just stay users and the momentum of the project never
>really get going...
Niclas,
Point taken. As you and a few others have pointed out, building a
community is one of the challenges here, but it is also one of the areas
that we have some experience with. At Cisco the product we build is for
developers. While it isn't open source it still relies on an active
community of developers--one that we've fostered and grown on our own
accord here at Cisco. You can see it here:
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cuae-dev/
Again, I realize it isn't the same, but I wanted to make sure the
Incubator community knows that the folks who are bringing Etch to Apache
for consideration do have experience in building a community of
developers.
Thanks again for your offer of support.
Louis
--
Louis R. Marascio - www.fitnr.com
... fixed in the next release ...
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Re: [PROPOSAL] Etch
Posted by James Dixson <ja...@cisco.com>.
Ah. Well, then I do not think there is anything to worry about as far as
Etch is concerned. There are many, many potential growth points for the
project. A simple example, Etch supports Java and C# language bindings today
with a binary-transport. One of the committers, Seth Call, is working on a
JavaScript language-binding with a JSON-encoded transport. I am working on a
Python binding. Language bindings and transport plugins represent huge
"itches". Furthermore, even our own limited experience has show that even
when one architects language and transport neutrality, we miss stuff. The
python language binding work early on inspired etch changes and
binary-transport changes to better support dynamically typed languages.
Other dimensions of "itches" exists in the management and aggregation of
multiple instances of services. IS-A vs HAS-A relationships between
services. Session management. Service discovery, etc.
IMHO while etch-1.0 offers capabilities today that fix a lot of problems in
the way services are defined, implemented and consumed. I do not by any
means think it eliminates problems from this space entirely. I think was
Etch offers is a more efficient refactoring of the problem of network
service creation and development and in turn "opens the field" to a
completely new class of technological challenges and opportunities.
--
James
On 8/1/08 8:50 AM, "Niclas Hedhman" <ni...@hedhman.org> wrote:
> On Friday 01 August 2008 21:10, James Dixson wrote:
>> I am a bit confused though about the "too good" concern, I do not think I
>> understand what you mean. Could you elaborate?
>
> I think it was Stefano Mazzocchi who said about community building, that the
> only "Bad Code + Great Vision" will succeed in building strong communities.
> It refers to the fact that there must be "itches to scratch" for a lot of
> people, otherwise they just stay users and the momentum of the project never
> really get going...
>
>
> Cheers
--
James Dixson
Manager, Software Development
CUAE Engineering, Cisco Systems
(e) jadixson@cisco.com
(p) 512-336-3305
(m) 512-968-2116
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Re: [PROPOSAL] Etch
Posted by Niclas Hedhman <ni...@hedhman.org>.
On Friday 01 August 2008 21:10, James Dixson wrote:
> I am a bit confused though about the "too good" concern, I do not think I
> understand what you mean. Could you elaborate?
I think it was Stefano Mazzocchi who said about community building, that the
only "Bad Code + Great Vision" will succeed in building strong communities.
It refers to the fact that there must be "itches to scratch" for a lot of
people, otherwise they just stay users and the momentum of the project never
really get going...
Cheers
--
Niclas Hedhman, Software Developer
I live here; http://tinyurl.com/2qq9er
I work here; http://tinyurl.com/2ymelc
I relax here; http://tinyurl.com/2cgsug
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Re: [PROPOSAL] Etch
Posted by James Dixson <ja...@cisco.com>.
Niclas, thanks for the support it is much appreciated. I will put you down
as as 'willing' on Mentor and Champion.
I understand the "at office" concern, it is a mode of operation and we (the
committers) all understand the importance of public communication and
consensus.
I am a bit confused though about the "too good" concern, I do not think I
understand what you mean. Could you elaborate?
--
james
On 7/31/08 10:28 PM, "Niclas Hedhman" <ni...@hedhman.org> wrote:
> On Friday 01 August 2008 00:16, James Dixson wrote:
>> This a proposal to enter Etch in to the incubator.
>>
>> See http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/EtchProposal for updates.
>>
>> In particular, we are looking for an interested Champion.
>
> Well, you are expected to have found a Champion prior to submitting the
> proposal, but that is not a blocker.
>
> "Etch" --> Not so sure. "Debian Etch vs Apache Etch, which one is better?"
> Doh... I would seek another name.
>
> I like this proposal a lot, probably because of too many fingers burned on
> SOAP. The challenge will be community building, and I have two fears;
> 1. Codebase might be "too good".
> 2. "At office" discussions on progress.
>
> Well, I am willing to be a Mentor on this podling if accepted. List me as
> Champion if you don't get anyone else. And you are effectively requesting the
> Incubator PMC to be the Sponsor.
>
>
> My +1 for Incubation.
>
>
> Cheers
--
James Dixson
Manager, Software Development
CUAE Engineering, Cisco Systems
(e) jadixson@cisco.com
(p) 512-336-3305
(m) 512-968-2116
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