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Posted to general@jakarta.apache.org by Santiago Gala <sg...@hisitech.com> on 2002/05/01 20:05:57 UTC
cross-project communications
Berin Loritsch wrote:
> Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
>
>>>
>>> Translation:
>>>
>>> Jakarta = jakarta.apache.org
>>> XML = xml.apache.org
>>>
>>> And the reason on XML.apache.org there is no discussion is:
>>> everyone seems to be on board with Forrest--which is using Centipede.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Yeah so why can't these work together? I still just don't get it.
>> "Gee we don't like that lets do our own thing or integrate with
>> anything but this or that". It just baffles the crap out of me. If I
>> had the choice. I'd use NEITHER. I choose Centaven WITH GUMP.
>
>
>
> Fine. The history is that Forrest was in motion before I even knew
> there was such a thing as Maven. I know the folks involved with
> Forrest, and they are top notch people. The whole purpose of Forrest
> is to work with GUMP. (Notice the synergy: Forrest Gump).
>
> Forrest was started and talked about publicly on the general@xml
> list before it was even started. That is something that somewhat
> perturbs me about the Turbine projects. SOmething with Maven's
> scope and ability should have been talked about publicly instead of
> sneaking up on us. When we get the message "convert all your
> projects...", that would definitely catch alot of people off guard.
>
>
I am interested is most of Jakarta-land, and in most of xml-land (the
*instanceof* java part).
I'm wondering if cross-communication lists would be needed. Since there
are plenty of communities in Apache, the general lists are too general
for me most of the time.
Since the java.apache.org project was frozen a lot of time ago, we could
reuse the name to create a general@java.apache.org list, or some similar
cross-project structure to ease java development communications.
The main points I see are:
- xml is becoming fairly used everywhere, so that most of us are related
to it somehow (specially as power-users or plain-users of the
java-related tools)
- a significant part of Jakarta is devoted to project infrastructure
(build, test, document, ...)
- infrastructure thingies springin in xml are being sent outside instead
of being developed there.
Java server is a big box to organize things, and XML is potentially even
bigger, so I think some organizational thinking should be (is already?)
going on. Also, one year and a half without an ApacheCon synchronization
points does not help much.
I'm not entering here to pick up flames, just looking for constructive
solutions.
Regards,
Santiago
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RE: cross-project communications
Posted by Rob Oxspring <ro...@imapmail.org>.
Sorry all, my fault!
Since starting that thread I have been swamped with the day job, and
free time has been somewhat filled trying to keep an eye on ant / lucene
/ commons / general lists... Stepping back for a moment I notice this
is an argument for getting on with the newsletter rather than putting it
off, so I'll see if I can get the ball rolling properly this time.
There was some interest and a few subprojects submitted something with a
wide variety of styles / content. If there is still some interest (and
I think these threads have proven the need) then I'll get back on the
case. I'll put together some sort of 0th issue by the end of the
weekend for release on general@. Unless anyone else wants to chuck
anything in, I'll start with the stuff I know (ant, commons) and then
use a mail archive to try and find the "busy" threads of a few other
subprojects (I'll probably take the opportunity to dip into lucene, bcel
& poi -dev and then just see what else I find time for).
Comments / input are welcome, hopefully with lots more after the first
issue!
Rob
-----Original Message-----
From: Erik Hatcher [mailto:jakarta@ehatchersolutions.com]
Sent: 1 May 2002 19:20
To: Jakarta General List
Subject: Re: cross-project communications
One thing that we discusssed back in late December was setting up a
Jakarta newsletter (look for subject "Jakarta Newsletter" in the
archives).
At that time I volunteered to provide an Ant update, as we discussed
having someone from each project provide updates. For the next month or
so I'm too busy to do anything more than that, but after that I would
volunteer to do more - like roll up the updates from the projects and be
the collector of the news. If someone wants to get the ball rolling on
that it would be great, and I'll jump in very soon to help out.
In the monthly (seems to be the best frequency to use) newsletter we
could announce new projects, new releases, new committers, and any other
general issues that are of interest to folks keeping tabs on the Jakarta
world.
I apologize for not following up on the newsletter thing before. Rob?
Geir? Thoughts? Did either of you do anything since our original
messages?
Erik
----- Original Message -----
From: "Santiago Gala" <sg...@hisitech.com>
To: "Jakarta General List" <ge...@jakarta.apache.org>
Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 2:05 PM
Subject: cross-project communications
> Berin Loritsch wrote:
>
> > Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
> >
> >>>
> >>> Translation:
> >>>
> >>> Jakarta = jakarta.apache.org
> >>> XML = xml.apache.org
> >>>
> >>> And the reason on XML.apache.org there is no discussion is:
> >>> everyone seems to be on board with Forrest--which is using
> >>> Centipede.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >> Yeah so why can't these work together? I still just don't get it.
> >> "Gee we don't like that lets do our own thing or integrate with
> >> anything but this or that". It just baffles the crap out of me. If
> >> I had the choice. I'd use NEITHER. I choose Centaven WITH GUMP.
> >
> >
> >
> > Fine. The history is that Forrest was in motion before I even knew
> > there was such a thing as Maven. I know the folks involved with
> > Forrest, and they are top notch people. The whole purpose of
> > Forrest is to work with GUMP. (Notice the synergy: Forrest Gump).
> >
> > Forrest was started and talked about publicly on the general@xml
> > list before it was even started. That is something that somewhat
> > perturbs me about the Turbine projects. SOmething with Maven's
> > scope and ability should have been talked about publicly instead of
> > sneaking up on us. When we get the message "convert all your
> > projects...", that would definitely catch alot of people off guard.
> >
> >
> I am interested is most of Jakarta-land, and in most of xml-land (the
> *instanceof* java part).
>
> I'm wondering if cross-communication lists would be needed. Since
> there are plenty of communities in Apache, the general lists are too
> general for me most of the time.
>
> Since the java.apache.org project was frozen a lot of time ago, we
> could reuse the name to create a general@java.apache.org list, or some
> similar cross-project structure to ease java development
> communications.
>
> The main points I see are:
>
> - xml is becoming fairly used everywhere, so that most of us are
> related to it somehow (specially as power-users or plain-users of the
> java-related tools)
> - a significant part of Jakarta is devoted to project infrastructure
> (build, test, document, ...)
> - infrastructure thingies springin in xml are being sent outside
> instead of being developed there.
>
> Java server is a big box to organize things, and XML is potentially
> even bigger, so I think some organizational thinking should be (is
> already?) going on. Also, one year and a half without an ApacheCon
> synchronization points does not help much.
>
> I'm not entering here to pick up flames, just looking for constructive
> solutions.
>
> Regards,
> Santiago
>
>
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:
<ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
> For additional commands, e-mail:
> <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
>
>
--
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<ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
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Re: cross-project communications
Posted by Erik Hatcher <ja...@ehatchersolutions.com>.
One thing that we discusssed back in late December was setting up a Jakarta
newsletter (look for subject "Jakarta Newsletter" in the archives).
At that time I volunteered to provide an Ant update, as we discussed having
someone from each project provide updates. For the next month or so I'm too
busy to do anything more than that, but after that I would volunteer to do
more - like roll up the updates from the projects and be the collector of
the news. If someone wants to get the ball rolling on that it would be
great, and I'll jump in very soon to help out.
In the monthly (seems to be the best frequency to use) newsletter we could
announce new projects, new releases, new committers, and any other general
issues that are of interest to folks keeping tabs on the Jakarta world.
I apologize for not following up on the newsletter thing before. Rob?
Geir? Thoughts? Did either of you do anything since our original messages?
Erik
----- Original Message -----
From: "Santiago Gala" <sg...@hisitech.com>
To: "Jakarta General List" <ge...@jakarta.apache.org>
Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 2:05 PM
Subject: cross-project communications
> Berin Loritsch wrote:
>
> > Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
> >
> >>>
> >>> Translation:
> >>>
> >>> Jakarta = jakarta.apache.org
> >>> XML = xml.apache.org
> >>>
> >>> And the reason on XML.apache.org there is no discussion is:
> >>> everyone seems to be on board with Forrest--which is using Centipede.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >> Yeah so why can't these work together? I still just don't get it.
> >> "Gee we don't like that lets do our own thing or integrate with
> >> anything but this or that". It just baffles the crap out of me. If I
> >> had the choice. I'd use NEITHER. I choose Centaven WITH GUMP.
> >
> >
> >
> > Fine. The history is that Forrest was in motion before I even knew
> > there was such a thing as Maven. I know the folks involved with
> > Forrest, and they are top notch people. The whole purpose of Forrest
> > is to work with GUMP. (Notice the synergy: Forrest Gump).
> >
> > Forrest was started and talked about publicly on the general@xml
> > list before it was even started. That is something that somewhat
> > perturbs me about the Turbine projects. SOmething with Maven's
> > scope and ability should have been talked about publicly instead of
> > sneaking up on us. When we get the message "convert all your
> > projects...", that would definitely catch alot of people off guard.
> >
> >
> I am interested is most of Jakarta-land, and in most of xml-land (the
> *instanceof* java part).
>
> I'm wondering if cross-communication lists would be needed. Since there
> are plenty of communities in Apache, the general lists are too general
> for me most of the time.
>
> Since the java.apache.org project was frozen a lot of time ago, we could
> reuse the name to create a general@java.apache.org list, or some similar
> cross-project structure to ease java development communications.
>
> The main points I see are:
>
> - xml is becoming fairly used everywhere, so that most of us are related
> to it somehow (specially as power-users or plain-users of the
> java-related tools)
> - a significant part of Jakarta is devoted to project infrastructure
> (build, test, document, ...)
> - infrastructure thingies springin in xml are being sent outside instead
> of being developed there.
>
> Java server is a big box to organize things, and XML is potentially even
> bigger, so I think some organizational thinking should be (is already?)
> going on. Also, one year and a half without an ApacheCon synchronization
> points does not help much.
>
> I'm not entering here to pick up flames, just looking for constructive
> solutions.
>
> Regards,
> Santiago
>
>
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
> For additional commands, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
>
>
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Re: cross-project communications
Posted by "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org>.
Oh and I'll help you out Geir in anyway I can in this effort. Just ask.
-Andy
Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
>On 5/1/02 4:31 PM, "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org> wrote:
>
>>What do you think of combining the general@xml and general@jakarta
>>mail lists?
>>
>
>-1 because I think we should ease into this slowly - from what I understand,
>we are way more chatty and entropic than the XML community, so we might
>shock them :)
>
>However, I think a joint community list is a great idea. I'd volunteer to
>moderate (I moderate general@jakarta now, so what's one more...)
>
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Re: xml && Jakarta mail list WAS: Re: cross-project communications
Posted by "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org>.
Call me silly but I don't think votes are necessary. Basically it gets
set up and everyone who wants to get xml-jakarta communications
going...joins.
What I'm most interested in is *would you join*.
How bout it.... Jon, Dion... Pier, Sam...Sylvain...Scott....gang?
-Andy
On Wed, 2002-05-01 at 17:03, Paul Libbrecht wrote:
> I'm not a voter, but it would be interesting I think...
> Paul
>
>
> On Mercredi, mai 1, 2002, at 10:44 , Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
>
> > excuse the cross post.....but...XML'ers are you interested.... would
> > you join a new cross-xml-jakarta list if it were created?
> >
> > Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
> >
> >> On 5/1/02 4:31 PM, "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org> wrote:
> >>
> >>> What do you think of combining the general@xml and general@jakarta
> >>> mail lists?
> >>
> >> -1 because I think we should ease into this slowly - from what I
> >> understand,
> >> we are way more chatty and entropic than the XML community, so we might
> >> shock them :)
> >>
> >> However, I think a joint community list is a great idea. I'd
> >> volunteer to
> >> moderate (I moderate general@jakarta now, so what's one more...)
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > In case of troubles, e-mail: webmaster@xml.apache.org
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@xml.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@xml.apache.org
> >
> >
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> In case of troubles, e-mail: webmaster@xml.apache.org
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@xml.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@xml.apache.org
>
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Document
format to java
http://developer.java.sun.com/developer/bugParade/bugs/4487555.html
- fix java generics!
The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to
vote.
-Ambassador Kosh
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Re: xml && Jakarta mail list WAS: Re: cross-project communications
Posted by "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org>.
Call me silly but I don't think votes are necessary. Basically it gets
set up and everyone who wants to get xml-jakarta communications
going...joins.
What I'm most interested in is *would you join*.
How bout it.... Jon, Dion... Pier, Sam...Sylvain...Scott....gang?
-Andy
On Wed, 2002-05-01 at 17:03, Paul Libbrecht wrote:
> I'm not a voter, but it would be interesting I think...
> Paul
>
>
> On Mercredi, mai 1, 2002, at 10:44 , Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
>
> > excuse the cross post.....but...XML'ers are you interested.... would
> > you join a new cross-xml-jakarta list if it were created?
> >
> > Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
> >
> >> On 5/1/02 4:31 PM, "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org> wrote:
> >>
> >>> What do you think of combining the general@xml and general@jakarta
> >>> mail lists?
> >>
> >> -1 because I think we should ease into this slowly - from what I
> >> understand,
> >> we are way more chatty and entropic than the XML community, so we might
> >> shock them :)
> >>
> >> However, I think a joint community list is a great idea. I'd
> >> volunteer to
> >> moderate (I moderate general@jakarta now, so what's one more...)
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > In case of troubles, e-mail: webmaster@xml.apache.org
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@xml.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@xml.apache.org
> >
> >
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> In case of troubles, e-mail: webmaster@xml.apache.org
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@xml.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@xml.apache.org
>
--
http://www.superlinksoftware.com
http://jakarta.apache.org/poi - port of Excel/Word/OLE 2 Compound
Document
format to java
http://developer.java.sun.com/developer/bugParade/bugs/4487555.html
- fix java generics!
The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to
vote.
-Ambassador Kosh
--
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Re: xml && Jakarta mail list WAS: Re: cross-project communications
Posted by Paul Libbrecht <pa...@activemath.org>.
I'm not a voter, but it would be interesting I think...
Paul
On Mercredi, mai 1, 2002, at 10:44 , Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
> excuse the cross post.....but...XML'ers are you interested.... would
> you join a new cross-xml-jakarta list if it were created?
>
> Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
>
>> On 5/1/02 4:31 PM, "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org> wrote:
>>
>>> What do you think of combining the general@xml and general@jakarta
>>> mail lists?
>>
>> -1 because I think we should ease into this slowly - from what I
>> understand,
>> we are way more chatty and entropic than the XML community, so we might
>> shock them :)
>>
>> However, I think a joint community list is a great idea. I'd
>> volunteer to
>> moderate (I moderate general@jakarta now, so what's one more...)
>>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> In case of troubles, e-mail: webmaster@xml.apache.org
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe@xml.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help@xml.apache.org
>
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
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xml && Jakarta mail list WAS: Re: cross-project communications
Posted by "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org>.
excuse the cross post.....but...XML'ers are you interested.... would
you join a new cross-xml-jakarta list if it were created?
Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
>On 5/1/02 4:31 PM, "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org> wrote:
>
>>What do you think of combining the general@xml and general@jakarta
>>mail lists?
>>
>
>-1 because I think we should ease into this slowly - from what I understand,
>we are way more chatty and entropic than the XML community, so we might
>shock them :)
>
>However, I think a joint community list is a great idea. I'd volunteer to
>moderate (I moderate general@jakarta now, so what's one more...)
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
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xml && Jakarta mail list WAS: Re: cross-project communications
Posted by "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org>.
excuse the cross post.....but...XML'ers are you interested.... would
you join a new cross-xml-jakarta list if it were created?
Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
>On 5/1/02 4:31 PM, "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org> wrote:
>
>>What do you think of combining the general@xml and general@jakarta
>>mail lists?
>>
>
>-1 because I think we should ease into this slowly - from what I understand,
>we are way more chatty and entropic than the XML community, so we might
>shock them :)
>
>However, I think a joint community list is a great idea. I'd volunteer to
>moderate (I moderate general@jakarta now, so what's one more...)
>
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RE: cross-project communications
Posted by Steven Noels <st...@outerthought.org>.
Geir wrote:
> -1 because I think we should ease into this slowly - from
> what I understand,
> we are way more chatty and entropic than the XML community,
> so we might
> shock them :)
ouch - that hurts :-)
</Steven>
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Re: cross-project communications
Posted by "Geir Magnusson Jr." <ge...@optonline.net>.
On 5/1/02 4:31 PM, "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org> wrote:
> What do you think of combining the general@xml and general@jakarta
> mail lists?
-1 because I think we should ease into this slowly - from what I understand,
we are way more chatty and entropic than the XML community, so we might
shock them :)
However, I think a joint community list is a great idea. I'd volunteer to
moderate (I moderate general@jakarta now, so what's one more...)
--
Geir Magnusson Jr. geirm@optonline.net
System and Software Consulting
The bytecodes are language independent. - Sam Ruby
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Re: cross-project communications
Posted by Morgan Delagrange <md...@yahoo.com>.
Actually, I think general@jakarta is often rather high
traffic. Personally, I'd rather not combine them and
receive a lot of potentially irrelevant emails
(particularly non-Java related emails). If a
developer thinks s/he's missing out on Apache XML
activity, there's a very simple solution: subscribe to
general@xml (and vice-versa).
- Morgan
--- "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org> wrote:
> What do you think of combining the general@xml and
> general@jakarta
> mail lists? By comparison to most other jakarta/xml
> mail lists I'm on..
> Both
> are relatively low traffic aside from the barrage of
> "Hi We're company X
> with
> an O/R mapping library we want to make into a
> subproject we've not got the
> source online and most of our employees have been
> sacked but we're sure it
> will just interest the heck out of everyone"
> messages, but through a bit
> more discipline
> on all of our parts we could easily reduce the
> thread size of those.
>
> -Andy
>
> >
> > I'm not entering here to pick up flames, just
> looking for constructive
> > solutions.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Santiago
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
> > For additional commands, e-mail:
> <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
> For additional commands, e-mail:
> <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
>
=====
Morgan Delagrange
http://jakarta.apache.org/taglibs
http://jakarta.apache.org/commons
http://axion.tigris.org
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
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Re: cross-project communications
Posted by "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org>.
What do you think of combining the general@xml and general@jakarta
mail lists? By comparison to most other jakarta/xml mail lists I'm on..
Both
are relatively low traffic aside from the barrage of "Hi We're company X
with
an O/R mapping library we want to make into a subproject we've not got the
source online and most of our employees have been sacked but we're sure it
will just interest the heck out of everyone" messages, but through a bit
more discipline
on all of our parts we could easily reduce the thread size of those.
-Andy
>
> I'm not entering here to pick up flames, just looking for constructive
> solutions.
>
> Regards,
> Santiago
>
>
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
> For additional commands, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
>
>
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RE: cross-project communications
Posted by Steven Noels <st...@outerthought.org>.
Good point.
I for one am rather 'amused' in the difference of style *and* momentum
in between both general@ lists and projects, and indeed there exists
some partisanship that divides both. Duh. Oh well, part of the fun over
here is exactly participating in this electronic biosphere while
observing 'group dynamics'.
Apparently, the XML style of doing things is a bit more conservative
with regards to the creation of new subprojects, whereas Jakarta has a
history of scratching itches fairly often, and subsubprojects being
graduated to full-blown subprojects as a result of that. And both groups
feel pretty proud of their realisations, which is natural, of course.
Hence the heated discussions when overlap (and competition) comes into
existence.
* On a global level:
Over the past few weeks, there was an avalanche of new project proposals
on the Jakarta list, clearly some people start to believe ASF blessing
of a project is a safehaven for community-poor projects. To the outside
world, it isn't clear what the criteria are for new project proposals
(and indead only Jakarta explicitely lists those at
http://jakarta.apache.org/site/newproject.html, a pity this hasn't done
(to my knowledge) for the XML site as well, I keep on referring people
to the Jakarta site).
I believe rules for subproject and subsubproject creation should be
clearly stated on an ASF-wide level. Global policies or email contacts
that can give authorative answers to these issues are hard to discover
for newbies (even though I'm following a lot of email lists for the past
2 or 3 years, I still consider myself to be a novice in this regard). To
an outsider, both PMC's operate quite silently (I understand and
appreciate them keeping a low profile and having a supportive instead of
enforcing role), perhaps some joint statements on this matter could
clarify this. IMO, one of the issues to be tackled is the creation of
subsubprojects without some broader consensus (IMO!).
Apart from that, some people, myself included, articulated the need for
having a cross Apache list to discuss issues on commercial activities
(like support and consulting) based on Apache projects, and after some
private communications the common feeling was that we didn't really knew
where to go with our ideas.
So I am all +1 to discuss the need and eventually the setup of some
cross-project communication platform, not just because of Java topics
not being addressed as Santiago indicated, but because we are on the
brink of deteriorating partisanship between both communities. We all
depend on a spirit of rapid consensus and getting on with the work. If
we create a forum where we can ventilate crossproject issues and also
discuss/prepare project integration, the lists where the real work is
carried out are freed from these email avalanches which sometimes leave
a bad taste in one's mouth.
* The Centipede/Maven/Gump 'case':
I'm happy to see that the discussion is finally converging into a
positive and hopefully productive atmosphere. The only remaining
impression is that all of these projects have been build with a need for
coherence in mind, whether that is coherence for building projects,
managing dependencies or having a coherent website (The XML group has
opted to create a subproject Forrest for the latter). Apart from the
choosen solution, I believe presenting a coherent image of both the
Jakarta and XML communities and projects is of vital importance for the
uptake of our lovingly crafted goodies. We see a plethora of initiatives
in this direction nowadays but as the recent heated discussion just has
shown, it would have been better if both communities were aware of each
other a bit sooner.
As an aside from all this emotional stuff, on Forrest: our short term
goal is to provide a facility to build and maintain a coherent
xml.apache.org site. We're not in the business of dependency checking
(Gump is), project/build frameworks (Maven and Centipede are) or XML web
publishing (Cocoon is). By coincidence (and since we didn't know Maven
existed, see my previous statements), we have choosen Centipede to
bootstrap our project, and Cocoon as the publishing engine. I know Maven
does similar stuff on a project-level (correct me if I'm wrong), but
Forrest intends to go xml.apache.org-wide and is clearly
website-focused. But as I said, this is just an aside for people
wondering what all these strange new projects are about ;-)
Just my 2 eurocent,
</Steven>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Santiago Gala [mailto:sgala@hisitech.com]
> Sent: woensdag 1 mei 2002 20:06
> To: Jakarta General List
> Subject: cross-project communications
>
>
> Berin Loritsch wrote:
>
> > Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
> >
> >>>
> >>> Translation:
> >>>
> >>> Jakarta = jakarta.apache.org
> >>> XML = xml.apache.org
> >>>
> >>> And the reason on XML.apache.org there is no discussion is:
> >>> everyone seems to be on board with Forrest--which is
> using Centipede.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >> Yeah so why can't these work together? I still just don't
> get it.
> >> "Gee we don't like that lets do our own thing or integrate with
> >> anything but this or that". It just baffles the crap out
> of me. If I
> >> had the choice. I'd use NEITHER. I choose Centaven WITH GUMP.
> >
> >
> >
> > Fine. The history is that Forrest was in motion before I even knew
> > there was such a thing as Maven. I know the folks involved with
> > Forrest, and they are top notch people. The whole purpose
> of Forrest
> > is to work with GUMP. (Notice the synergy: Forrest Gump).
> >
> > Forrest was started and talked about publicly on the general@xml
> > list before it was even started. That is something that somewhat
> > perturbs me about the Turbine projects. SOmething with Maven's
> > scope and ability should have been talked about publicly instead of
> > sneaking up on us. When we get the message "convert all your
> > projects...", that would definitely catch alot of people off guard.
> >
> >
> I am interested is most of Jakarta-land, and in most of
> xml-land (the
> *instanceof* java part).
>
> I'm wondering if cross-communication lists would be needed.
> Since there
> are plenty of communities in Apache, the general lists are
> too general
> for me most of the time.
>
> Since the java.apache.org project was frozen a lot of time
> ago, we could
> reuse the name to create a general@java.apache.org list, or
> some similar
> cross-project structure to ease java development communications.
>
> The main points I see are:
>
> - xml is becoming fairly used everywhere, so that most of us
> are related
> to it somehow (specially as power-users or plain-users of the
> java-related tools)
> - a significant part of Jakarta is devoted to project infrastructure
> (build, test, document, ...)
> - infrastructure thingies springin in xml are being sent
> outside instead
> of being developed there.
>
> Java server is a big box to organize things, and XML is
> potentially even
> bigger, so I think some organizational thinking should be (is
> already?)
> going on. Also, one year and a half without an ApacheCon
> synchronization
> points does not help much.
>
> I'm not entering here to pick up flames, just looking for
> constructive
> solutions.
>
> Regards,
> Santiago
>
>
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
> For additional commands, e-mail:
> <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
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RE: cross-project communications
Posted by Steven Noels <st...@outerthought.org>.
Good point.
I for one am rather 'amused' in the difference of style *and* momentum
in between both general@ lists and projects, and indeed there exists
some partisanship that divides both. Duh. Oh well, part of the fun over
here is exactly participating in this electronic biosphere while
observing 'group dynamics'.
Apparently, the XML style of doing things is a bit more conservative
with regards to the creation of new subprojects, whereas Jakarta has a
history of scratching itches fairly often, and subsubprojects being
graduated to full-blown subprojects as a result of that. And both groups
feel pretty proud of their realisations, which is natural, of course.
Hence the heated discussions when overlap (and competition) comes into
existence.
* On a global level:
Over the past few weeks, there was an avalanche of new project proposals
on the Jakarta list, clearly some people start to believe ASF blessing
of a project is a safehaven for community-poor projects. To the outside
world, it isn't clear what the criteria are for new project proposals
(and indead only Jakarta explicitely lists those at
http://jakarta.apache.org/site/newproject.html, a pity this hasn't done
(to my knowledge) for the XML site as well, I keep on referring people
to the Jakarta site).
I believe rules for subproject and subsubproject creation should be
clearly stated on an ASF-wide level. Global policies or email contacts
that can give authorative answers to these issues are hard to discover
for newbies (even though I'm following a lot of email lists for the past
2 or 3 years, I still consider myself to be a novice in this regard). To
an outsider, both PMC's operate quite silently (I understand and
appreciate them keeping a low profile and having a supportive instead of
enforcing role), perhaps some joint statements on this matter could
clarify this. IMO, one of the issues to be tackled is the creation of
subsubprojects without some broader consensus (IMO!).
Apart from that, some people, myself included, articulated the need for
having a cross Apache list to discuss issues on commercial activities
(like support and consulting) based on Apache projects, and after some
private communications the common feeling was that we didn't really knew
where to go with our ideas.
So I am all +1 to discuss the need and eventually the setup of some
cross-project communication platform, not just because of Java topics
not being addressed as Santiago indicated, but because we are on the
brink of deteriorating partisanship between both communities. We all
depend on a spirit of rapid consensus and getting on with the work. If
we create a forum where we can ventilate crossproject issues and also
discuss/prepare project integration, the lists where the real work is
carried out are freed from these email avalanches which sometimes leave
a bad taste in one's mouth.
* The Centipede/Maven/Gump 'case':
I'm happy to see that the discussion is finally converging into a
positive and hopefully productive atmosphere. The only remaining
impression is that all of these projects have been build with a need for
coherence in mind, whether that is coherence for building projects,
managing dependencies or having a coherent website (The XML group has
opted to create a subproject Forrest for the latter). Apart from the
choosen solution, I believe presenting a coherent image of both the
Jakarta and XML communities and projects is of vital importance for the
uptake of our lovingly crafted goodies. We see a plethora of initiatives
in this direction nowadays but as the recent heated discussion just has
shown, it would have been better if both communities were aware of each
other a bit sooner.
As an aside from all this emotional stuff, on Forrest: our short term
goal is to provide a facility to build and maintain a coherent
xml.apache.org site. We're not in the business of dependency checking
(Gump is), project/build frameworks (Maven and Centipede are) or XML web
publishing (Cocoon is). By coincidence (and since we didn't know Maven
existed, see my previous statements), we have choosen Centipede to
bootstrap our project, and Cocoon as the publishing engine. I know Maven
does similar stuff on a project-level (correct me if I'm wrong), but
Forrest intends to go xml.apache.org-wide and is clearly
website-focused. But as I said, this is just an aside for people
wondering what all these strange new projects are about ;-)
Just my 2 eurocent,
</Steven>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Santiago Gala [mailto:sgala@hisitech.com]
> Sent: woensdag 1 mei 2002 20:06
> To: Jakarta General List
> Subject: cross-project communications
>
>
> Berin Loritsch wrote:
>
> > Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
> >
> >>>
> >>> Translation:
> >>>
> >>> Jakarta = jakarta.apache.org
> >>> XML = xml.apache.org
> >>>
> >>> And the reason on XML.apache.org there is no discussion is:
> >>> everyone seems to be on board with Forrest--which is
> using Centipede.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >> Yeah so why can't these work together? I still just don't
> get it.
> >> "Gee we don't like that lets do our own thing or integrate with
> >> anything but this or that". It just baffles the crap out
> of me. If I
> >> had the choice. I'd use NEITHER. I choose Centaven WITH GUMP.
> >
> >
> >
> > Fine. The history is that Forrest was in motion before I even knew
> > there was such a thing as Maven. I know the folks involved with
> > Forrest, and they are top notch people. The whole purpose
> of Forrest
> > is to work with GUMP. (Notice the synergy: Forrest Gump).
> >
> > Forrest was started and talked about publicly on the general@xml
> > list before it was even started. That is something that somewhat
> > perturbs me about the Turbine projects. SOmething with Maven's
> > scope and ability should have been talked about publicly instead of
> > sneaking up on us. When we get the message "convert all your
> > projects...", that would definitely catch alot of people off guard.
> >
> >
> I am interested is most of Jakarta-land, and in most of
> xml-land (the
> *instanceof* java part).
>
> I'm wondering if cross-communication lists would be needed.
> Since there
> are plenty of communities in Apache, the general lists are
> too general
> for me most of the time.
>
> Since the java.apache.org project was frozen a lot of time
> ago, we could
> reuse the name to create a general@java.apache.org list, or
> some similar
> cross-project structure to ease java development communications.
>
> The main points I see are:
>
> - xml is becoming fairly used everywhere, so that most of us
> are related
> to it somehow (specially as power-users or plain-users of the
> java-related tools)
> - a significant part of Jakarta is devoted to project infrastructure
> (build, test, document, ...)
> - infrastructure thingies springin in xml are being sent
> outside instead
> of being developed there.
>
> Java server is a big box to organize things, and XML is
> potentially even
> bigger, so I think some organizational thinking should be (is
> already?)
> going on. Also, one year and a half without an ApacheCon
> synchronization
> points does not help much.
>
> I'm not entering here to pick up flames, just looking for
> constructive
> solutions.
>
> Regards,
> Santiago
>
>
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
> For additional commands, e-mail:
> <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
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