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Posted to general@xml.apache.org by Sanjiva Weerawarana <sa...@watson.ibm.com> on 2002/10/24 07:57:03 UTC
time for a Web services PMC? (was: Fw: spinning out projects (was: incubator project))
Given the note below, I wonder whether its time to consider a
"Web services" PMC for Apache. I would like to see that come up.
Here's my +1.
I volunteer to write up the proposal if folks are intersted. There
are a bunch of projects that would move under the new PMC:
Axis, Apache SOAP, WSIL4J, WSIF
Sanjiva.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Greg Stein" <gs...@apache.org>
To: <re...@apache.org>
Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2002 6:10 AM
Subject: spinning out projects (was: incubator project)
> On Wed, Oct 23, 2002 at 08:58:49AM -0400, Sam Ruby wrote:
> > Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
> >...
> > > This is why we are sick of being hosted in a container that doesn't
give
> > > us nothing and we would almost all love to see xml blasted and the
> > > flattening resolution passed.
> >...
> > > XML people don't give a damn about the xml.apache.org brand because
> > > there is none and there is no community that feels that
'xml.apache.org'
> > > is *the place* for XML technology (even if, maybe, it is).
> > >
> > > We perceive it as a dry and useless container of full-blown ASF
projects
> > > that happen to work on XML technologies. So we have nothing to worry
> > > about if it goes down the drain.
> >...
> > > Jakarta is a container with a general community that respect the brand
> > > and enjoys to be part of it. XML is just a container and nobody really
> > > think it's getting something out of being part of it.
> >...
> > Two things, and I have been VERY consistent about this:
> >
> > 1) If you want Cocoon or any other project separate from XML, then get
> > off your butt and put together a proposal. There is at least one board
> > member who would actively support such a proposal (me).
> >
> > 2) Such a proposal should not be conditional on the actions of any other
> > project or set of committers not part of the proposal. Perhaps Xalan
> > and Xerces don't *want* to xml.apache.org to be blasted.
>
>
> Sam is 100% spot-on here. There is absolutely no reason to wait for any
> flattening or reorg or anything. Heck... who knows if/when that will even
> happen.
>
> If you want to be separated, then write up a resolution to establish a new
> PMC for the project. Send that resolution to board@. We may ask for a
couple
> refinements, then put it onto the agenda for our next meeting.
>
> The Board is not going to spin you out. *YOU* have to do the legwork to
make
> that happen.
>
> As with Sam, I would also vote for such a separation. So you've got 2 of
the
> 9 potential votes already. And yes, my vote will also go for spinning out
> any Jakarta projects.
>
> The next Board meeting will occur at ApacheCon. Please try to send your
> proposed resolutions at least a week beforehand, although 2-3 days might
> be okay. (but if it appears the directors have not had adequate review
time,
> then it'll get tabled; that's why sending it earlier is better)
>
> Cheers,
> -g
>
> --
> gstein@apache.org ... ASF Chairman ... http://www.apache.org/
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Re: OT: Re: time for a Web services PMC? (was: Fw: spinning out projects (was: incubator project))
Posted by Andrus Adamchik <an...@objectstyle.org>.
Hi,
since http://db.apache.org/ is empty, is there another place to get more
information? Like who is behind this effort? how can I help? any particular
mailing list where the discussion is going?
Andrus
Nicola Ken Barozzi writes:
>
> V. Cekvenich wrote:
>> I would like to see a DB PMC.
>
> IIRC there is one, and it's in the initial phases.
> The website is not ready yet http://db.apache.org/.
>
> Wanna help? :-)
>
> --
> Nicola Ken Barozzi nicolaken@apache.org
> - verba volant, scripta manent -
> (discussions get forgotten, just code remains)
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: OT: Re: time for a Web services PMC? (was: Fw: spinning out projects
(was: incubator project))
Posted by "V. Cekvenich" <vi...@users.sourceforge.net>.
I will help for sure, how?
(also, not a comitter yet, but working on it )
.V
You can e-mail me private on help part at vicc@users.sourceforge.net.
Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote:
>
> V. Cekvenich wrote:
>
>> I would like to see a DB PMC.
>
>
> IIRC there is one, and it's in the initial phases.
> The website is not ready yet http://db.apache.org/.
>
> Wanna help? :-)
>
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Re: OT: Re: time for a Web services PMC? (was: Fw: spinning out projects
(was: incubator project))
Posted by "Andrew C. Oliver" <an...@superlinksoftware.com>.
Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote:
>
> V. Cekvenich wrote:
>
>> I would like to see a DB PMC.
>
>
> IIRC there is one, and it's in the initial phases.
> The website is not ready yet http://db.apache.org/.
>
> Wanna help? :-)
>
Just FYI either general@db.apache.org is dead... or myself and others
have been unable to successfully subscribe
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Re: OT: Re: time for a Web services PMC? (was: Fw: spinning out projects
(was: incubator project))
Posted by Nicola Ken Barozzi <ni...@apache.org>.
V. Cekvenich wrote:
> I would like to see a DB PMC.
IIRC there is one, and it's in the initial phases.
The website is not ready yet http://db.apache.org/.
Wanna help? :-)
--
Nicola Ken Barozzi nicolaken@apache.org
- verba volant, scripta manent -
(discussions get forgotten, just code remains)
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OT: Re: time for a Web services PMC? (was: Fw: spinning out projects
(was: incubator project))
Posted by "V. Cekvenich" <vi...@users.sourceforge.net>.
I would like to see a DB PMC.
There are a lot of persistence mechanisms, it be nice to see the
together. ( Even better a common, but simple API)
.V
Sanjiva Weerawarana wrote:
> Given the note below, I wonder whether its time to consider a
> "Web services" PMC for Apache. I would like to see that come up.
>
> Here's my +1.
>
> I volunteer to write up the proposal if folks are intersted. There
> are a bunch of projects that would move under the new PMC:
> Axis, Apache SOAP, WSIL4J, WSIF
>
> Sanjiva.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Greg Stein" <gs...@apache.org>
> To: <re...@apache.org>
> Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2002 6:10 AM
> Subject: spinning out projects (was: incubator project)
>
>
>
>>On Wed, Oct 23, 2002 at 08:58:49AM -0400, Sam Ruby wrote:
>>
>>>Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
>>>...
>>>
>>>>This is why we are sick of being hosted in a container that doesn't
>>>
> give
>
>>>>us nothing and we would almost all love to see xml blasted and the
>>>>flattening resolution passed.
>>>
>>>...
>>>
>>>>XML people don't give a damn about the xml.apache.org brand because
>>>>there is none and there is no community that feels that
>>>
> 'xml.apache.org'
>
>>>>is *the place* for XML technology (even if, maybe, it is).
>>>>
>>>>We perceive it as a dry and useless container of full-blown ASF
>>>
> projects
>
>>>>that happen to work on XML technologies. So we have nothing to worry
>>>>about if it goes down the drain.
>>>
>>>...
>>>
>>>>Jakarta is a container with a general community that respect the brand
>>>>and enjoys to be part of it. XML is just a container and nobody really
>>>>think it's getting something out of being part of it.
>>>
>>>...
>>>Two things, and I have been VERY consistent about this:
>>>
>>>1) If you want Cocoon or any other project separate from XML, then get
>>>off your butt and put together a proposal. There is at least one board
>>>member who would actively support such a proposal (me).
>>>
>>>2) Such a proposal should not be conditional on the actions of any other
>>>project or set of committers not part of the proposal. Perhaps Xalan
>>>and Xerces don't *want* to xml.apache.org to be blasted.
>>
>>
>>Sam is 100% spot-on here. There is absolutely no reason to wait for any
>>flattening or reorg or anything. Heck... who knows if/when that will even
>>happen.
>>
>>If you want to be separated, then write up a resolution to establish a new
>>PMC for the project. Send that resolution to board@. We may ask for a
>
> couple
>
>>refinements, then put it onto the agenda for our next meeting.
>>
>>The Board is not going to spin you out. *YOU* have to do the legwork to
>
> make
>
>>that happen.
>>
>>As with Sam, I would also vote for such a separation. So you've got 2 of
>
> the
>
>>9 potential votes already. And yes, my vote will also go for spinning out
>>any Jakarta projects.
>>
>>The next Board meeting will occur at ApacheCon. Please try to send your
>>proposed resolutions at least a week beforehand, although 2-3 days might
>>be okay. (but if it appears the directors have not had adequate review
>
> time,
>
>>then it'll get tabled; that's why sending it earlier is better)
>>
>>Cheers,
>>-g
>>
>>--
>>gstein@apache.org ... ASF Chairman ... http://www.apache.org/
>
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Re: time for a Web services PMC? (was: Fw: spinning out projects
(was: incubator project))
Posted by Sam Ruby <ru...@apache.org>.
Sanjiva Weerawarana wrote:
>
> I'm also a bit surprised by your statement - you were one of the
> strongest supporters of WSIF and WSIL being smashed in "under"
> Axis in some form; and that was done by naming the CVSs xml-axis-foo
> and by having the projects be somehow listed off the Axis page.
> I recall your arguing with Stefano that Axis and Apache SOAP
> had precisely the same dev community when there was criticism of
> the two SOAP projects at Apache. Why do you now advocate that
> we all divorce and go our own ways? I would think that would
> detract majorly from the value of the Apache brand and would
> result in less coordination than desired.
If you have been reading reorg@, then you will see that if anything, I
am more surprised than you. I have consistently advocated larger
communities (I'd say "smashed" is a wee bit perjorative), and was merely
reporting my reading of the tea leaves.
At a minimum, I'd advocate heavy cross linkage. And I am still seekig
ways to do more.
Just reporting things as I see them. Don't shoot the messenger.
- Sam Ruby
Re: time for a Web services PMC? (was: Fw: spinning out projects (was: incubator project))
Posted by Sanjiva Weerawarana <sa...@watson.ibm.com>.
"Steve Loughran" <st...@iseran.com> writes:
On Thu, 24 Oct 2002, Roy T. Fielding <fi...@apache.org> wrote:
>
> > The concept of a PMC, and the reason that anyone having a vote on
> > the project code-base should be a member of the PMC, is to provide
> > legal protection to those people as individuals. Not being on a PMC
> > (as defined by the bylaws) means that each and every decision made
> > by those committers is outside the scope of Apache's legal
> > protection, which in turn means that if a mistake is made (or some
> > asshole lawyer just feels like it), any suit against the committer
> > actions (such as infringement of some unknown patent) would have to
> > be defended by the committers on their own. The ASF would be able
> > to defend the code itself, but not the people whose actions were
> > outside the PMC.
>
> so, I'm in favor of legal indemnity for my commits, which, if it means PMC
> membership, I'm happy to go with.
Me too. However, are all committers going to be members of the PMC?
If so then I'm fine with flattening the structure and making every
project a top level project and making every committer a PMC member
for that project.
Somehow I didn't get that drift from Roy's message (which I had
seen earlier and which definitely scared me too), but I'd very much
like to be wrong in this case. (No, not because of the flat structure
but because of the legal cover.)
Sanjiva.
Re: time for a Web services PMC? (was: Fw: spinning out projects (was: incubator project))
Posted by Steve Loughran <st...@iseran.com>.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sanjiva Weerawarana" <sa...@watson.ibm.com>
To: <ax...@xml.apache.org>
Cc: "Apache SOAP" <so...@xml.apache.org>
Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2002 19:51
Subject: Re: time for a Web services PMC? (was: Fw: spinning out projects
(was: incubator project))
> At least all the folks who have replied on soap-dev or axis-dev
> have +1'ed the idea of having a common umbrella for all Apache
> Web services projects. I personally think we'd be missing out
> on a great branding opportunity if we don't do that.
maybe we need to start adding some more in the incubator. I have a little
extension to axis I'm getting ready to commit, but it may have .net client
support there too.
> > A questions to ponder:
>
> Only one question? (You had "s" at the end ..)
>
> > The PMC should consist of the set of core and active committers for a
> > project. Do we have such a set that spans these various codebases? Or
> > do we have essentially non-overlapping sets of committers?
>
> Is that a new rule? I don't see Xerces committers being Axis
> committers or Xalan committers being Xerces committers or vice-versa.
> If that's not what has been the case so far why the new rule?
> I always thought that PMC was a set of elected reps from the
> various projects and they got elected by virtue of their individual
> credibility. Clearly folks (including you it seems considering today's
> discussion on the reorg list!) have different understanding of what
> the PMC is about and how its constituted.
some clarification may come from a reorg mail by roy:
On Thu, 24 Oct 2002, Roy T. Fielding <fi...@apache.org> wrote:
> The concept of a PMC, and the reason that anyone having a vote on
> the project code-base should be a member of the PMC, is to provide
> legal protection to those people as individuals. Not being on a PMC
> (as defined by the bylaws) means that each and every decision made
> by those committers is outside the scope of Apache's legal
> protection, which in turn means that if a mistake is made (or some
> asshole lawyer just feels like it), any suit against the committer
> actions (such as infringement of some unknown patent) would have to
> be defended by the committers on their own. The ASF would be able
> to defend the code itself, but not the people whose actions were
> outside the PMC.
so, I'm in favor of legal indemnity for my commits, which, if it means PMC
membership, I'm happy to go with.
Re: time for a Web services PMC? (was: Fw: spinning out projects (was: incubator project))
Posted by Sanjiva Weerawarana <sa...@watson.ibm.com>.
"Sam Ruby" <ru...@apache.org> writes:
>
> My current strategy is to selectively reinforce those messages that I
> agree with. Ken made a statement today along those lines, and I echoed
> it. I do not believe that Ken is a strong advocate of subprojects.
> Jim, Roy, Brian, and Greg seem actively opposed. Just my reading of the
> tea leaves.
Given the level of fluctuation on that list it seems to me we
need to wait for a bit of stability before moving forward. My
reading of the list is that there is no universal agreement with
your view that each project should just be an independent thing.
At least all the folks who have replied on soap-dev or axis-dev
have +1'ed the idea of having a common umbrella for all Apache
Web services projects. I personally think we'd be missing out
on a great branding opportunity if we don't do that.
> A questions to ponder:
Only one question? (You had "s" at the end ..)
> The PMC should consist of the set of core and active committers for a
> project. Do we have such a set that spans these various codebases? Or
> do we have essentially non-overlapping sets of committers?
Is that a new rule? I don't see Xerces committers being Axis
committers or Xalan committers being Xerces committers or vice-versa.
If that's not what has been the case so far why the new rule?
I always thought that PMC was a set of elected reps from the
various projects and they got elected by virtue of their individual
credibility. Clearly folks (including you it seems considering today's
discussion on the reorg list!) have different understanding of what
the PMC is about and how its constituted.
I'm also a bit surprised by your statement - you were one of the
strongest supporters of WSIF and WSIL being smashed in "under"
Axis in some form; and that was done by naming the CVSs xml-axis-foo
and by having the projects be somehow listed off the Axis page.
I recall your arguing with Stefano that Axis and Apache SOAP
had precisely the same dev community when there was criticism of
the two SOAP projects at Apache. Why do you now advocate that
we all divorce and go our own ways? I would think that would
detract majorly from the value of the Apache brand and would
result in less coordination than desired.
I am personally inclined with organizing ourselves in the way
the axis-dev and soap-dev developers would like to, of course
subject to the legal constructions viable in ASF. So far there's
clearly a preference for a single umbrella for all Web Services
projects in Apache.
Sanjiva.
Re: time for a Web services PMC? (was: Fw: spinning out projects (was: incubator project))
Posted by Sanjiva Weerawarana <sa...@watson.ibm.com>.
"Sam Ruby" <ru...@apache.org> writes:
>
> My current strategy is to selectively reinforce those messages that I
> agree with. Ken made a statement today along those lines, and I echoed
> it. I do not believe that Ken is a strong advocate of subprojects.
> Jim, Roy, Brian, and Greg seem actively opposed. Just my reading of the
> tea leaves.
Given the level of fluctuation on that list it seems to me we
need to wait for a bit of stability before moving forward. My
reading of the list is that there is no universal agreement with
your view that each project should just be an independent thing.
At least all the folks who have replied on soap-dev or axis-dev
have +1'ed the idea of having a common umbrella for all Apache
Web services projects. I personally think we'd be missing out
on a great branding opportunity if we don't do that.
> A questions to ponder:
Only one question? (You had "s" at the end ..)
> The PMC should consist of the set of core and active committers for a
> project. Do we have such a set that spans these various codebases? Or
> do we have essentially non-overlapping sets of committers?
Is that a new rule? I don't see Xerces committers being Axis
committers or Xalan committers being Xerces committers or vice-versa.
If that's not what has been the case so far why the new rule?
I always thought that PMC was a set of elected reps from the
various projects and they got elected by virtue of their individual
credibility. Clearly folks (including you it seems considering today's
discussion on the reorg list!) have different understanding of what
the PMC is about and how its constituted.
I'm also a bit surprised by your statement - you were one of the
strongest supporters of WSIF and WSIL being smashed in "under"
Axis in some form; and that was done by naming the CVSs xml-axis-foo
and by having the projects be somehow listed off the Axis page.
I recall your arguing with Stefano that Axis and Apache SOAP
had precisely the same dev community when there was criticism of
the two SOAP projects at Apache. Why do you now advocate that
we all divorce and go our own ways? I would think that would
detract majorly from the value of the Apache brand and would
result in less coordination than desired.
I am personally inclined with organizing ourselves in the way
the axis-dev and soap-dev developers would like to, of course
subject to the legal constructions viable in ASF. So far there's
clearly a preference for a single umbrella for all Web Services
projects in Apache.
Sanjiva.
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Re: time for a Web services PMC? (was: Fw: spinning out projects (was: incubator project))
Posted by Sanjiva Weerawarana <sa...@watson.ibm.com>.
"Sam Ruby" <ru...@apache.org> writes:
>
> My current strategy is to selectively reinforce those messages that I
> agree with. Ken made a statement today along those lines, and I echoed
> it. I do not believe that Ken is a strong advocate of subprojects.
> Jim, Roy, Brian, and Greg seem actively opposed. Just my reading of the
> tea leaves.
Given the level of fluctuation on that list it seems to me we
need to wait for a bit of stability before moving forward. My
reading of the list is that there is no universal agreement with
your view that each project should just be an independent thing.
At least all the folks who have replied on soap-dev or axis-dev
have +1'ed the idea of having a common umbrella for all Apache
Web services projects. I personally think we'd be missing out
on a great branding opportunity if we don't do that.
> A questions to ponder:
Only one question? (You had "s" at the end ..)
> The PMC should consist of the set of core and active committers for a
> project. Do we have such a set that spans these various codebases? Or
> do we have essentially non-overlapping sets of committers?
Is that a new rule? I don't see Xerces committers being Axis
committers or Xalan committers being Xerces committers or vice-versa.
If that's not what has been the case so far why the new rule?
I always thought that PMC was a set of elected reps from the
various projects and they got elected by virtue of their individual
credibility. Clearly folks (including you it seems considering today's
discussion on the reorg list!) have different understanding of what
the PMC is about and how its constituted.
I'm also a bit surprised by your statement - you were one of the
strongest supporters of WSIF and WSIL being smashed in "under"
Axis in some form; and that was done by naming the CVSs xml-axis-foo
and by having the projects be somehow listed off the Axis page.
I recall your arguing with Stefano that Axis and Apache SOAP
had precisely the same dev community when there was criticism of
the two SOAP projects at Apache. Why do you now advocate that
we all divorce and go our own ways? I would think that would
detract majorly from the value of the Apache brand and would
result in less coordination than desired.
I am personally inclined with organizing ourselves in the way
the axis-dev and soap-dev developers would like to, of course
subject to the legal constructions viable in ASF. So far there's
clearly a preference for a single umbrella for all Web Services
projects in Apache.
Sanjiva.
Re: time for a Web services PMC? (was: Fw: spinning out projects
(was: incubator project))
Posted by Sam Ruby <ru...@apache.org>.
Sanjiva Weerawarana wrote:
> "Sam Ruby" <ru...@apache.org> writes:
>
>>Proposals for a new umbrella PMC would not fare well in the current
>>climate. Separate proposals for new top level projects for each would
>>fare much better.
>>
>>Those that care to debate this should join reorg@apache.org and catch up
>>on the 1053 e-mails on the subject to date.
>
> I am on that list and have kept up with what I could. Not all for sure.
>
> It seems to me that today's trend on the reorg list is to say let the
> developer community decide.
My current strategy is to selectively reinforce those messages that I
agree with. Ken made a statement today along those lines, and I echoed
it. I do not believe that Ken is a strong advocate of subprojects.
Jim, Roy, Brian, and Greg seem actively opposed. Just my reading of the
tea leaves.
A questions to ponder:
The PMC should consist of the set of core and active committers for a
project. Do we have such a set that spans these various codebases? Or
do we have essentially non-overlapping sets of committers?
- Sam Ruby
Re: time for a Web services PMC? (was: Fw: spinning out projects (was: incubator project))
Posted by Vivek Chopra <vi...@yahoo.com>.
Not a committer... but my +1 for whatever its worth!
--- James M Snell <ja...@us.ibm.com> wrote:
> +1
>
> - James Snell
> IBM Emerging Technologies
> jasnell@us.ibm.com
> (559) 587-1233 (office)
> (700) 544-9035 (t/l)
> Programming Web Services With SOAP
> O'Reilly & Associates, ISBN 0596000952
>
> Have I not commanded you? Be strong and
> courageous.
> Do not be terrified, do not be discouraged, for
> the Lord your
> God will be with you whereever you go. -
> Joshua 1:9
>
>
>
> "Sanjiva Weerawarana" <sa...@watson.ibm.com>
> 10/24/2002 10:10 AM
> Please respond to axis-dev
>
>
> To
> <so...@xml.apache.org>, <ax...@xml.apache.org>
> cc
>
> bcc
>
> Subject
> Re: time for a Web services PMC? (was: Fw: spinning
> out projects (was:
> incubator project))
>
>
>
> "Sam Ruby" <ru...@apache.org> writes:
> >
> > Proposals for a new umbrella PMC would not fare
> well in the current
> > climate. Separate proposals for new top level
> projects for each would
> > fare much better.
> >
> > Those that care to debate this should join
> reorg@apache.org and catch up
> > on the 1053 e-mails on the subject to date.
>
> I am on that list and have kept up with what I
> could. Not all for sure.
>
> It seems to me that today's trend on the reorg list
> is to say let the
> developer community decide.
>
> My preference is that Apache Axis, Apache SOAP and
> the other stuff
> that was placed under Axis (WSIF and WSIL4J) would
> nicely go together
> in one package. If that's what the Axis/SOAP -dev
> community feel
> we should be able to get such a structure. If the
> current politically
> correct term for such an umbrella is not PMC that's
> fine, but I think
> it would be good for Apache Web services related
> projects to be
> grouped under one umbrella to build brand value
> amongst other things.
>
> What do others feel?
>
> Sanjiva.
>
>
>
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> <ma...@xml.apache.org>
> For additional commands, e-mail:
> <ma...@xml.apache.org>
>
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Re: time for a Web services PMC? (was: Fw: spinning out projects (was: incubator project))
Posted by Vivek Chopra <vi...@yahoo.com>.
Not a committer... but my +1 for whatever its worth!
--- James M Snell <ja...@us.ibm.com> wrote:
> +1
>
> - James Snell
> IBM Emerging Technologies
> jasnell@us.ibm.com
> (559) 587-1233 (office)
> (700) 544-9035 (t/l)
> Programming Web Services With SOAP
> O'Reilly & Associates, ISBN 0596000952
>
> Have I not commanded you? Be strong and
> courageous.
> Do not be terrified, do not be discouraged, for
> the Lord your
> God will be with you whereever you go. -
> Joshua 1:9
>
>
>
> "Sanjiva Weerawarana" <sa...@watson.ibm.com>
> 10/24/2002 10:10 AM
> Please respond to axis-dev
>
>
> To
> <so...@xml.apache.org>, <ax...@xml.apache.org>
> cc
>
> bcc
>
> Subject
> Re: time for a Web services PMC? (was: Fw: spinning
> out projects (was:
> incubator project))
>
>
>
> "Sam Ruby" <ru...@apache.org> writes:
> >
> > Proposals for a new umbrella PMC would not fare
> well in the current
> > climate. Separate proposals for new top level
> projects for each would
> > fare much better.
> >
> > Those that care to debate this should join
> reorg@apache.org and catch up
> > on the 1053 e-mails on the subject to date.
>
> I am on that list and have kept up with what I
> could. Not all for sure.
>
> It seems to me that today's trend on the reorg list
> is to say let the
> developer community decide.
>
> My preference is that Apache Axis, Apache SOAP and
> the other stuff
> that was placed under Axis (WSIF and WSIL4J) would
> nicely go together
> in one package. If that's what the Axis/SOAP -dev
> community feel
> we should be able to get such a structure. If the
> current politically
> correct term for such an umbrella is not PMC that's
> fine, but I think
> it would be good for Apache Web services related
> projects to be
> grouped under one umbrella to build brand value
> amongst other things.
>
> What do others feel?
>
> Sanjiva.
>
>
>
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> <ma...@xml.apache.org>
> For additional commands, e-mail:
> <ma...@xml.apache.org>
>
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Re: time for a Web services PMC? (was: Fw: spinning out projects (was: incubator
project))
Posted by James M Snell <ja...@us.ibm.com>.
+1
- James Snell
IBM Emerging Technologies
jasnell@us.ibm.com
(559) 587-1233 (office)
(700) 544-9035 (t/l)
Programming Web Services With SOAP
O'Reilly & Associates, ISBN 0596000952
Have I not commanded you? Be strong and courageous.
Do not be terrified, do not be discouraged, for the Lord your
God will be with you whereever you go. - Joshua 1:9
"Sanjiva Weerawarana" <sa...@watson.ibm.com>
10/24/2002 10:10 AM
Please respond to axis-dev
To
<so...@xml.apache.org>, <ax...@xml.apache.org>
cc
bcc
Subject
Re: time for a Web services PMC? (was: Fw: spinning out projects (was:
incubator project))
"Sam Ruby" <ru...@apache.org> writes:
>
> Proposals for a new umbrella PMC would not fare well in the current
> climate. Separate proposals for new top level projects for each would
> fare much better.
>
> Those that care to debate this should join reorg@apache.org and catch up
> on the 1053 e-mails on the subject to date.
I am on that list and have kept up with what I could. Not all for sure.
It seems to me that today's trend on the reorg list is to say let the
developer community decide.
My preference is that Apache Axis, Apache SOAP and the other stuff
that was placed under Axis (WSIF and WSIL4J) would nicely go together
in one package. If that's what the Axis/SOAP -dev community feel
we should be able to get such a structure. If the current politically
correct term for such an umbrella is not PMC that's fine, but I think
it would be good for Apache Web services related projects to be
grouped under one umbrella to build brand value amongst other things.
What do others feel?
Sanjiva.
Re: time for a Web services PMC? (was: Fw: spinning out projects (was: incubator
project))
Posted by James M Snell <ja...@us.ibm.com>.
+1
- James Snell
IBM Emerging Technologies
jasnell@us.ibm.com
(559) 587-1233 (office)
(700) 544-9035 (t/l)
Programming Web Services With SOAP
O'Reilly & Associates, ISBN 0596000952
Have I not commanded you? Be strong and courageous.
Do not be terrified, do not be discouraged, for the Lord your
God will be with you whereever you go. - Joshua 1:9
"Sanjiva Weerawarana" <sa...@watson.ibm.com>
10/24/2002 10:10 AM
Please respond to axis-dev
To
<so...@xml.apache.org>, <ax...@xml.apache.org>
cc
bcc
Subject
Re: time for a Web services PMC? (was: Fw: spinning out projects (was:
incubator project))
"Sam Ruby" <ru...@apache.org> writes:
>
> Proposals for a new umbrella PMC would not fare well in the current
> climate. Separate proposals for new top level projects for each would
> fare much better.
>
> Those that care to debate this should join reorg@apache.org and catch up
> on the 1053 e-mails on the subject to date.
I am on that list and have kept up with what I could. Not all for sure.
It seems to me that today's trend on the reorg list is to say let the
developer community decide.
My preference is that Apache Axis, Apache SOAP and the other stuff
that was placed under Axis (WSIF and WSIL4J) would nicely go together
in one package. If that's what the Axis/SOAP -dev community feel
we should be able to get such a structure. If the current politically
correct term for such an umbrella is not PMC that's fine, but I think
it would be good for Apache Web services related projects to be
grouped under one umbrella to build brand value amongst other things.
What do others feel?
Sanjiva.
--
To unsubscribe, e-mail: <ma...@xml.apache.org>
For additional commands, e-mail: <ma...@xml.apache.org>
Re: time for a Web services PMC? (was: Fw: spinning out projects (was: incubator
project))
Posted by James M Snell <ja...@us.ibm.com>.
+1
- James Snell
IBM Emerging Technologies
jasnell@us.ibm.com
(559) 587-1233 (office)
(700) 544-9035 (t/l)
Programming Web Services With SOAP
O'Reilly & Associates, ISBN 0596000952
Have I not commanded you? Be strong and courageous.
Do not be terrified, do not be discouraged, for the Lord your
God will be with you whereever you go. - Joshua 1:9
"Sanjiva Weerawarana" <sa...@watson.ibm.com>
10/24/2002 10:10 AM
Please respond to axis-dev
To
<so...@xml.apache.org>, <ax...@xml.apache.org>
cc
bcc
Subject
Re: time for a Web services PMC? (was: Fw: spinning out projects (was:
incubator project))
"Sam Ruby" <ru...@apache.org> writes:
>
> Proposals for a new umbrella PMC would not fare well in the current
> climate. Separate proposals for new top level projects for each would
> fare much better.
>
> Those that care to debate this should join reorg@apache.org and catch up
> on the 1053 e-mails on the subject to date.
I am on that list and have kept up with what I could. Not all for sure.
It seems to me that today's trend on the reorg list is to say let the
developer community decide.
My preference is that Apache Axis, Apache SOAP and the other stuff
that was placed under Axis (WSIF and WSIL4J) would nicely go together
in one package. If that's what the Axis/SOAP -dev community feel
we should be able to get such a structure. If the current politically
correct term for such an umbrella is not PMC that's fine, but I think
it would be good for Apache Web services related projects to be
grouped under one umbrella to build brand value amongst other things.
What do others feel?
Sanjiva.
Re: time for a Web services PMC? (was: Fw: spinning out projects (was: incubator project))
Posted by Sanjiva Weerawarana <sa...@watson.ibm.com>.
"Sam Ruby" <ru...@apache.org> writes:
>
> Proposals for a new umbrella PMC would not fare well in the current
> climate. Separate proposals for new top level projects for each would
> fare much better.
>
> Those that care to debate this should join reorg@apache.org and catch up
> on the 1053 e-mails on the subject to date.
I am on that list and have kept up with what I could. Not all for sure.
It seems to me that today's trend on the reorg list is to say let the
developer community decide.
My preference is that Apache Axis, Apache SOAP and the other stuff
that was placed under Axis (WSIF and WSIL4J) would nicely go together
in one package. If that's what the Axis/SOAP -dev community feel
we should be able to get such a structure. If the current politically
correct term for such an umbrella is not PMC that's fine, but I think
it would be good for Apache Web services related projects to be
grouped under one umbrella to build brand value amongst other things.
What do others feel?
Sanjiva.
Re: time for a Web services PMC? (was: Fw: spinning out projects (was: incubator project))
Posted by Sanjiva Weerawarana <sa...@watson.ibm.com>.
"Sam Ruby" <ru...@apache.org> writes:
>
> Proposals for a new umbrella PMC would not fare well in the current
> climate. Separate proposals for new top level projects for each would
> fare much better.
>
> Those that care to debate this should join reorg@apache.org and catch up
> on the 1053 e-mails on the subject to date.
I am on that list and have kept up with what I could. Not all for sure.
It seems to me that today's trend on the reorg list is to say let the
developer community decide.
My preference is that Apache Axis, Apache SOAP and the other stuff
that was placed under Axis (WSIF and WSIL4J) would nicely go together
in one package. If that's what the Axis/SOAP -dev community feel
we should be able to get such a structure. If the current politically
correct term for such an umbrella is not PMC that's fine, but I think
it would be good for Apache Web services related projects to be
grouped under one umbrella to build brand value amongst other things.
What do others feel?
Sanjiva.
--
To unsubscribe, e-mail: <ma...@xml.apache.org>
For additional commands, e-mail: <ma...@xml.apache.org>
Re: time for a Web services PMC? (was: Fw: spinning out projects (was: incubator project))
Posted by Sanjiva Weerawarana <sa...@watson.ibm.com>.
"Sam Ruby" <ru...@apache.org> writes:
>
> Proposals for a new umbrella PMC would not fare well in the current
> climate. Separate proposals for new top level projects for each would
> fare much better.
>
> Those that care to debate this should join reorg@apache.org and catch up
> on the 1053 e-mails on the subject to date.
I am on that list and have kept up with what I could. Not all for sure.
It seems to me that today's trend on the reorg list is to say let the
developer community decide.
My preference is that Apache Axis, Apache SOAP and the other stuff
that was placed under Axis (WSIF and WSIL4J) would nicely go together
in one package. If that's what the Axis/SOAP -dev community feel
we should be able to get such a structure. If the current politically
correct term for such an umbrella is not PMC that's fine, but I think
it would be good for Apache Web services related projects to be
grouped under one umbrella to build brand value amongst other things.
What do others feel?
Sanjiva.
Re: time for a Web services PMC? (was: Fw: spinning out projects
(was: incubator project))
Posted by Sam Ruby <ru...@apache.org>.
Sanjiva Weerawarana wrote:
> Given the note below, I wonder whether its time to consider a
> "Web services" PMC for Apache. I would like to see that come up.
>
> Here's my +1.
>
> I volunteer to write up the proposal if folks are intersted. There
> are a bunch of projects that would move under the new PMC:
> Axis, Apache SOAP, WSIL4J, WSIF
Proposals for a new umbrella PMC would not fare well in the current
climate. Separate proposals for new top level projects for each would
fare much better.
Those that care to debate this should join reorg@apache.org and catch up
on the 1053 e-mails on the subject to date.
- Sam Ruby
--
To unsubscribe, e-mail: <ma...@xml.apache.org>
For additional commands, e-mail: <ma...@xml.apache.org>
Re: time for a Web services PMC? (was: Fw: spinning out projects
(was: incubator project))
Posted by Sam Ruby <ru...@apache.org>.
Sanjiva Weerawarana wrote:
> Given the note below, I wonder whether its time to consider a
> "Web services" PMC for Apache. I would like to see that come up.
>
> Here's my +1.
>
> I volunteer to write up the proposal if folks are intersted. There
> are a bunch of projects that would move under the new PMC:
> Axis, Apache SOAP, WSIL4J, WSIF
Proposals for a new umbrella PMC would not fare well in the current
climate. Separate proposals for new top level projects for each would
fare much better.
Those that care to debate this should join reorg@apache.org and catch up
on the 1053 e-mails on the subject to date.
- Sam Ruby
Re: time for a Web services PMC? (was: Fw: spinning out projects
(was: incubator project))
Posted by Sam Ruby <ru...@apache.org>.
Sanjiva Weerawarana wrote:
> Given the note below, I wonder whether its time to consider a
> "Web services" PMC for Apache. I would like to see that come up.
>
> Here's my +1.
>
> I volunteer to write up the proposal if folks are intersted. There
> are a bunch of projects that would move under the new PMC:
> Axis, Apache SOAP, WSIL4J, WSIF
Proposals for a new umbrella PMC would not fare well in the current
climate. Separate proposals for new top level projects for each would
fare much better.
Those that care to debate this should join reorg@apache.org and catch up
on the 1053 e-mails on the subject to date.
- Sam Ruby
Re: time for a Web services PMC? (was: Fw: spinning out projects (was: incubator
project))
Posted by James M Snell <ja...@us.ibm.com>.
+1.. I'd definitely like to see a separate Web services PMC. I'll
volunteer to help write up the proposal if needed.
- James Snell
IBM Emerging Technologies
jasnell@us.ibm.com
(559) 587-1233 (office)
(700) 544-9035 (t/l)
Programming Web Services With SOAP
O'Reilly & Associates, ISBN 0596000952
Have I not commanded you? Be strong and courageous.
Do not be terrified, do not be discouraged, for the Lord your
God will be with you whereever you go. - Joshua 1:9
"Sanjiva Weerawarana" <sa...@watson.ibm.com>
10/23/2002 10:57 PM
Please respond to soap-dev
To
"Axis Development List" <ax...@xml.apache.org>,
<ge...@xml.apache.org>, "Apache SOAP" <so...@xml.apache.org>
cc
bcc
Subject
time for a Web services PMC? (was: Fw: spinning out projects (was:
incubator project))
Given the note below, I wonder whether its time to consider a
"Web services" PMC for Apache. I would like to see that come up.
Here's my +1.
I volunteer to write up the proposal if folks are intersted. There
are a bunch of projects that would move under the new PMC:
Axis, Apache SOAP, WSIL4J, WSIF
Sanjiva.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Greg Stein" <gs...@apache.org>
To: <re...@apache.org>
Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2002 6:10 AM
Subject: spinning out projects (was: incubator project)
> On Wed, Oct 23, 2002 at 08:58:49AM -0400, Sam Ruby wrote:
> > Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
> >...
> > > This is why we are sick of being hosted in a container that doesn't
give
> > > us nothing and we would almost all love to see xml blasted and the
> > > flattening resolution passed.
> >...
> > > XML people don't give a damn about the xml.apache.org brand because
> > > there is none and there is no community that feels that
'xml.apache.org'
> > > is *the place* for XML technology (even if, maybe, it is).
> > >
> > > We perceive it as a dry and useless container of full-blown ASF
projects
> > > that happen to work on XML technologies. So we have nothing to worry
> > > about if it goes down the drain.
> >...
> > > Jakarta is a container with a general community that respect the
brand
> > > and enjoys to be part of it. XML is just a container and nobody
really
> > > think it's getting something out of being part of it.
> >...
> > Two things, and I have been VERY consistent about this:
> >
> > 1) If you want Cocoon or any other project separate from XML, then get
> > off your butt and put together a proposal. There is at least one
board
> > member who would actively support such a proposal (me).
> >
> > 2) Such a proposal should not be conditional on the actions of any
other
> > project or set of committers not part of the proposal. Perhaps Xalan
> > and Xerces don't *want* to xml.apache.org to be blasted.
>
>
> Sam is 100% spot-on here. There is absolutely no reason to wait for any
> flattening or reorg or anything. Heck... who knows if/when that will
even
> happen.
>
> If you want to be separated, then write up a resolution to establish a
new
> PMC for the project. Send that resolution to board@. We may ask for a
couple
> refinements, then put it onto the agenda for our next meeting.
>
> The Board is not going to spin you out. *YOU* have to do the legwork to
make
> that happen.
>
> As with Sam, I would also vote for such a separation. So you've got 2 of
the
> 9 potential votes already. And yes, my vote will also go for spinning
out
> any Jakarta projects.
>
> The next Board meeting will occur at ApacheCon. Please try to send your
> proposed resolutions at least a week beforehand, although 2-3 days might
> be okay. (but if it appears the directors have not had adequate review
time,
> then it'll get tabled; that's why sending it earlier is better)
>
> Cheers,
> -g
>
> --
> gstein@apache.org ... ASF Chairman ... http://www.apache.org/
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To unsubscribe, e-mail: <ma...@xml.apache.org>
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Re: time for a Web services PMC? (was: Fw: spinning out projects (was: incubator
project))
Posted by James M Snell <ja...@us.ibm.com>.
+1.. I'd definitely like to see a separate Web services PMC. I'll
volunteer to help write up the proposal if needed.
- James Snell
IBM Emerging Technologies
jasnell@us.ibm.com
(559) 587-1233 (office)
(700) 544-9035 (t/l)
Programming Web Services With SOAP
O'Reilly & Associates, ISBN 0596000952
Have I not commanded you? Be strong and courageous.
Do not be terrified, do not be discouraged, for the Lord your
God will be with you whereever you go. - Joshua 1:9
"Sanjiva Weerawarana" <sa...@watson.ibm.com>
10/23/2002 10:57 PM
Please respond to soap-dev
To
"Axis Development List" <ax...@xml.apache.org>,
<ge...@xml.apache.org>, "Apache SOAP" <so...@xml.apache.org>
cc
bcc
Subject
time for a Web services PMC? (was: Fw: spinning out projects (was:
incubator project))
Given the note below, I wonder whether its time to consider a
"Web services" PMC for Apache. I would like to see that come up.
Here's my +1.
I volunteer to write up the proposal if folks are intersted. There
are a bunch of projects that would move under the new PMC:
Axis, Apache SOAP, WSIL4J, WSIF
Sanjiva.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Greg Stein" <gs...@apache.org>
To: <re...@apache.org>
Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2002 6:10 AM
Subject: spinning out projects (was: incubator project)
> On Wed, Oct 23, 2002 at 08:58:49AM -0400, Sam Ruby wrote:
> > Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
> >...
> > > This is why we are sick of being hosted in a container that doesn't
give
> > > us nothing and we would almost all love to see xml blasted and the
> > > flattening resolution passed.
> >...
> > > XML people don't give a damn about the xml.apache.org brand because
> > > there is none and there is no community that feels that
'xml.apache.org'
> > > is *the place* for XML technology (even if, maybe, it is).
> > >
> > > We perceive it as a dry and useless container of full-blown ASF
projects
> > > that happen to work on XML technologies. So we have nothing to worry
> > > about if it goes down the drain.
> >...
> > > Jakarta is a container with a general community that respect the
brand
> > > and enjoys to be part of it. XML is just a container and nobody
really
> > > think it's getting something out of being part of it.
> >...
> > Two things, and I have been VERY consistent about this:
> >
> > 1) If you want Cocoon or any other project separate from XML, then get
> > off your butt and put together a proposal. There is at least one
board
> > member who would actively support such a proposal (me).
> >
> > 2) Such a proposal should not be conditional on the actions of any
other
> > project or set of committers not part of the proposal. Perhaps Xalan
> > and Xerces don't *want* to xml.apache.org to be blasted.
>
>
> Sam is 100% spot-on here. There is absolutely no reason to wait for any
> flattening or reorg or anything. Heck... who knows if/when that will
even
> happen.
>
> If you want to be separated, then write up a resolution to establish a
new
> PMC for the project. Send that resolution to board@. We may ask for a
couple
> refinements, then put it onto the agenda for our next meeting.
>
> The Board is not going to spin you out. *YOU* have to do the legwork to
make
> that happen.
>
> As with Sam, I would also vote for such a separation. So you've got 2 of
the
> 9 potential votes already. And yes, my vote will also go for spinning
out
> any Jakarta projects.
>
> The next Board meeting will occur at ApacheCon. Please try to send your
> proposed resolutions at least a week beforehand, although 2-3 days might
> be okay. (but if it appears the directors have not had adequate review
time,
> then it'll get tabled; that's why sending it earlier is better)
>
> Cheers,
> -g
>
> --
> gstein@apache.org ... ASF Chairman ... http://www.apache.org/
--
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For additional commands, e-mail: <ma...@xml.apache.org>
--
To unsubscribe, e-mail: <ma...@xml.apache.org>
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