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Posted to soap-user@ws.apache.org by Alex Kordun <ak...@cornell.edu> on 2001/04/28 02:18:52 UTC
SOAP in local networks
Hi,
Reading the on-going discussion about SOAP performance (or lack thereof),
it seems that it is only suitable for cases when client and server are
geographically dispursed and reside on the Internet rather than a local
area network. Thus, users are willing to sacrifice the speed of the data
transfer for interoperability, simplicity of use, and ability to go through
firewalls. The idea of the protocol is to be completely platform
independent, so the problems with interoperability between MS and Java
servers, are simlpy due to various toolkits that "faciliate" development of
Web Services. Therefore, it seems logical to assume, that given enough
effort (low enough level of implementation) these problems will be
eventually solved (for example, by simple XML parsing without the use of
WSDL, or other highlevel add-ons).
However, I am interested whether anyone thinks that SOAP is also useful in
LAN communications, where the software ran by computers, transport protocol
implementation, as well as network type and performance is all under
control. Does it makes sense to use RPC calls that generate huge packet
sizes (XML Envelopes), when every endpoint can just agree on any format
even simple memory dumps...
Do people see SOAP being used in these settings, or is this the kind of
area better suited by CORBA or Java RMI?
Alex
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Re: SOAP in local networks
Posted by Alex Kordun <ak...@cornell.edu>.
>Are you sure that a LAN solution today won't really need to be an Internet
>solution tomorrow?
LOL. I guess that's the key to the whole issue. :)
According to everyone I've spoken to, that appears to be the current
"trend" of things. However, supposing that it is true, I find it very
difficult to believe that SOAP itself is not short-sighted. If the only
thing out there is Internet and there's no notion of locality in networks,
not only does this open up a huge can of worms in terms of interoperability
and security, but performance limitations will be way too restrictive. So
if SOAP is designed for that "future" world, it is way too slow to suit
everybody's needs. And with coming additions of security, better attachment
handling, etc., and considering the fact that XML standards themselves will
change a couple of times, it will be unbearable. To continue this
far-fetched future forecast, the only event that would save the world in
this case is if the transport protocol and the network infrastructure is
super fast (and the size of XML packets is negligible), allows for
multicast, etc -- in other words, not HTTP.
Considering this, one may even make a daring statement that SOAP is just a
quick-and-dirty shot at interoperability on the Internet, using
technologies everyone has already integrated (HTTP and XML) so as to get a
fast commercial return on proprietary technology (.NET in MSFT's case). At
the time when there really *will* be just Internet (and no LANs), it seems
improbable that all these technologies will prevail...
So that's why I am confused about the environments in which SOAP should be
used for "long-term" efficient use...
Sorry for philosophizing so much...
Alex
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Re: SOAP in local networks
Posted by Peter Glynn <gl...@tcd.ie>.
I agree totally with Alex.
With the issue of performance in my experience RMI doesn't match that of
CORBA. So the comparison is really SOAP Vs CORBA. Ok the performance of SOAP
is well behind that of CORBA - probably catch up with resent developments in
XML parsers but the underlying issues are that SOAP is so bloody easy to
implement and its free. It is a nice way for Web Developers to brake into
distributed computing without doing a masters in it.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Aleksander Slominski" <as...@cs.indiana.edu>
To: <so...@xml.apache.org>
Cc: "SoapRMI" <so...@extreme.indiana.edu>
Sent: Saturday, April 28, 2001 5:54 AM
Subject: Re: SOAP in local networks
> Alex Kordun wrote:
>
> > Reading the on-going discussion about SOAP performance (or lack
thereof),
> > it seems that it is only suitable for cases when client and server are
> > geographically dispursed and reside on the Internet rather than a local
> > area network. Thus, users are willing to sacrifice the speed of the data
> > transfer for interoperability, simplicity of use, and ability to go
through
> > firewalls. The idea of the protocol is to be completely platform
> > independent, so the problems with interoperability between MS and Java
> > servers, are simlpy due to various toolkits that "faciliate" development
of
> > Web Services. Therefore, it seems logical to assume, that given enough
> > effort (low enough level of implementation) these problems will be
> > eventually solved (for example, by simple XML parsing without the use of
> > WSDL, or other highlevel add-ons).
>
> or maybe not.
>
> i do not think there will be ever one solution be it Java RMI, CORBA,
SOAP,
> JMS, ebXML/SOAP, JXTA or whatever. in my opinion smart move is to expose
> network infrastructure only as much as needed but to build on abstractions
such
> as RPC call, RMI API etc. this way you can envision writing programs that
will
> adapt to underlying runtime system. for example in LAN interconnected
> applications switch to CORBA or if both are Java they talk Java RMI
otherwise
> they fall back to common denominator and SOAP seems like pretty good bet
here
> :-)
>
> > However, I am interested whether anyone thinks that SOAP is also useful
in
> > LAN communications, where the software ran by computers, transport
protocol
> > implementation, as well as network type and performance is all under
> > control. Does it makes sense to use RPC calls that generate huge packet
> > sizes (XML Envelopes), when every endpoint can just agree on any format
> > even simple memory dumps...
>
> it depends how long you want to wait and how much CPU you can allocate for
> necessary overhead (such as mentioned XML parsing) :-)
>
> > Do people see SOAP being used in these settings, or is this the kind of
> > area better suited by CORBA or Java RMI?
>
> SOAP has nice side - simplicity - even if interoperability is not yet
there i
> can read SOAP spec in few hours and fix most of problems just by groking
> XML/XSD/SOAP specs.
>
> thanks,
>
> alek
> --
> Aleksander Slominski, LH 316, IU, http://www.extreme.indiana.edu/~aslom
> As I look afar I see neither cherry Nor tinted leaves Just a modest hut
> on the coast In the dusk of Autumn nightfall - Fujiwara no
Teika(1162-1241)
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: soap-user-unsubscribe@xml.apache.org
> For additional commands, email: soap-user-help@xml.apache.org
>
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Re: SOAP in local networks
Posted by Peter Glynn <gl...@tcd.ie>.
I agree totally with Alex.
With the issue of performance in my experience RMI doesn't match that of
CORBA. So the comparison is really SOAP Vs CORBA. Ok the performance of SOAP
is well behind that of CORBA - probably catch up with resent developments in
XML parsers but the underlying issues are that SOAP is so bloody easy to
implement and its free. It is a nice way for Web Developers to brake into
distributed computing without doing a masters in it.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Aleksander Slominski" <as...@cs.indiana.edu>
To: <so...@xml.apache.org>
Cc: "SoapRMI" <so...@extreme.indiana.edu>
Sent: Saturday, April 28, 2001 5:54 AM
Subject: Re: SOAP in local networks
> Alex Kordun wrote:
>
> > Reading the on-going discussion about SOAP performance (or lack
thereof),
> > it seems that it is only suitable for cases when client and server are
> > geographically dispursed and reside on the Internet rather than a local
> > area network. Thus, users are willing to sacrifice the speed of the data
> > transfer for interoperability, simplicity of use, and ability to go
through
> > firewalls. The idea of the protocol is to be completely platform
> > independent, so the problems with interoperability between MS and Java
> > servers, are simlpy due to various toolkits that "faciliate" development
of
> > Web Services. Therefore, it seems logical to assume, that given enough
> > effort (low enough level of implementation) these problems will be
> > eventually solved (for example, by simple XML parsing without the use of
> > WSDL, or other highlevel add-ons).
>
> or maybe not.
>
> i do not think there will be ever one solution be it Java RMI, CORBA,
SOAP,
> JMS, ebXML/SOAP, JXTA or whatever. in my opinion smart move is to expose
> network infrastructure only as much as needed but to build on abstractions
such
> as RPC call, RMI API etc. this way you can envision writing programs that
will
> adapt to underlying runtime system. for example in LAN interconnected
> applications switch to CORBA or if both are Java they talk Java RMI
otherwise
> they fall back to common denominator and SOAP seems like pretty good bet
here
> :-)
>
> > However, I am interested whether anyone thinks that SOAP is also useful
in
> > LAN communications, where the software ran by computers, transport
protocol
> > implementation, as well as network type and performance is all under
> > control. Does it makes sense to use RPC calls that generate huge packet
> > sizes (XML Envelopes), when every endpoint can just agree on any format
> > even simple memory dumps...
>
> it depends how long you want to wait and how much CPU you can allocate for
> necessary overhead (such as mentioned XML parsing) :-)
>
> > Do people see SOAP being used in these settings, or is this the kind of
> > area better suited by CORBA or Java RMI?
>
> SOAP has nice side - simplicity - even if interoperability is not yet
there i
> can read SOAP spec in few hours and fix most of problems just by groking
> XML/XSD/SOAP specs.
>
> thanks,
>
> alek
> --
> Aleksander Slominski, LH 316, IU, http://www.extreme.indiana.edu/~aslom
> As I look afar I see neither cherry Nor tinted leaves Just a modest hut
> on the coast In the dusk of Autumn nightfall - Fujiwara no
Teika(1162-1241)
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: soap-user-unsubscribe@xml.apache.org
> For additional commands, email: soap-user-help@xml.apache.org
>
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Re: SOAP in local networks
Posted by Aleksander Slominski <as...@cs.indiana.edu>.
Alex Kordun wrote:
> Reading the on-going discussion about SOAP performance (or lack thereof),
> it seems that it is only suitable for cases when client and server are
> geographically dispursed and reside on the Internet rather than a local
> area network. Thus, users are willing to sacrifice the speed of the data
> transfer for interoperability, simplicity of use, and ability to go through
> firewalls. The idea of the protocol is to be completely platform
> independent, so the problems with interoperability between MS and Java
> servers, are simlpy due to various toolkits that "faciliate" development of
> Web Services. Therefore, it seems logical to assume, that given enough
> effort (low enough level of implementation) these problems will be
> eventually solved (for example, by simple XML parsing without the use of
> WSDL, or other highlevel add-ons).
or maybe not.
i do not think there will be ever one solution be it Java RMI, CORBA, SOAP,
JMS, ebXML/SOAP, JXTA or whatever. in my opinion smart move is to expose
network infrastructure only as much as needed but to build on abstractions such
as RPC call, RMI API etc. this way you can envision writing programs that will
adapt to underlying runtime system. for example in LAN interconnected
applications switch to CORBA or if both are Java they talk Java RMI otherwise
they fall back to common denominator and SOAP seems like pretty good bet here
:-)
> However, I am interested whether anyone thinks that SOAP is also useful in
> LAN communications, where the software ran by computers, transport protocol
> implementation, as well as network type and performance is all under
> control. Does it makes sense to use RPC calls that generate huge packet
> sizes (XML Envelopes), when every endpoint can just agree on any format
> even simple memory dumps...
it depends how long you want to wait and how much CPU you can allocate for
necessary overhead (such as mentioned XML parsing) :-)
> Do people see SOAP being used in these settings, or is this the kind of
> area better suited by CORBA or Java RMI?
SOAP has nice side - simplicity - even if interoperability is not yet there i
can read SOAP spec in few hours and fix most of problems just by groking
XML/XSD/SOAP specs.
thanks,
alek
--
Aleksander Slominski, LH 316, IU, http://www.extreme.indiana.edu/~aslom
As I look afar I see neither cherry Nor tinted leaves Just a modest hut
on the coast In the dusk of Autumn nightfall - Fujiwara no Teika(1162-1241)
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Re: SOAP in local networks
Posted by William Brogden <wb...@bga.com>.
Alex Kordun wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> Reading the on-going discussion about SOAP performance (or lack thereof),
> it seems that it is only suitable for cases when client and server are
> geographically dispursed and reside on the Internet rather than a local
> area network. Thus, users are willing to sacrifice the speed of the data
> transfer for interoperability, simplicity of use, and ability to go through
> firewalls. The idea of the protocol is to be completely platform
> independent, so the problems with interoperability between MS and Java
> servers, are simlpy due to various toolkits that "faciliate" development of
> Web Services. Therefore, it seems logical to assume, that given enough
> effort (low enough level of implementation) these problems will be
> eventually solved (for example, by simple XML parsing without the use of
> WSDL, or other highlevel add-ons).
>
> However, I am interested whether anyone thinks that SOAP is also useful in
> LAN communications, where the software ran by computers, transport protocol
> implementation, as well as network type and performance is all under
> control. Does it makes sense to use RPC calls that generate huge packet
> sizes (XML Envelopes), when every endpoint can just agree on any format
> even simple memory dumps...
>
> Do people see SOAP being used in these settings, or is this the kind of
> area better suited by CORBA or Java RMI?
>
> Alex
There is always SOAP's simpler cousin - XMLRPC which might be better
for the total control situation www.xmlrpc.com
--
WBB - wbrogden@lanw.com
Java Cert mock exams http://www.lanw.com/java/javacert/
Author of Java Developer's Guide to Servlets and JSP
ISBN 0-7821-2809-2
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Re: SOAP in local networks
Posted by Alex Kordun <ak...@cornell.edu>.
>Are you sure that a LAN solution today won't really need to be an Internet
>solution tomorrow?
LOL. I guess that's the key to the whole issue. :)
According to everyone I've spoken to, that appears to be the current
"trend" of things. However, supposing that it is true, I find it very
difficult to believe that SOAP itself is not short-sighted. If the only
thing out there is Internet and there's no notion of locality in networks,
not only does this open up a huge can of worms in terms of interoperability
and security, but performance limitations will be way too restrictive. So
if SOAP is designed for that "future" world, it is way too slow to suit
everybody's needs. And with coming additions of security, better attachment
handling, etc., and considering the fact that XML standards themselves will
change a couple of times, it will be unbearable. To continue this
far-fetched future forecast, the only event that would save the world in
this case is if the transport protocol and the network infrastructure is
super fast (and the size of XML packets is negligible), allows for
multicast, etc -- in other words, not HTTP.
Considering this, one may even make a daring statement that SOAP is just a
quick-and-dirty shot at interoperability on the Internet, using
technologies everyone has already integrated (HTTP and XML) so as to get a
fast commercial return on proprietary technology (.NET in MSFT's case). At
the time when there really *will* be just Internet (and no LANs), it seems
improbable that all these technologies will prevail...
So that's why I am confused about the environments in which SOAP should be
used for "long-term" efficient use...
Sorry for philosophizing so much...
Alex
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Re: SOAP in local networks
Posted by David Wall <dw...@Yozons.com>.
> Reading the on-going discussion about SOAP performance (or lack thereof),
> it seems that it is only suitable for cases when client and server are
> geographically dispursed and reside on the Internet rather than a local
> area network. Thus, users are willing to sacrifice the speed of the data
> transfer for interoperability, simplicity of use, and ability to go
through
> firewalls.
Personally, I suspect there is either a bug or some special initialization
that occurs on the first Call. The performance (taking 2-4 seconds) is
unexplainable now how the XML is parsed or how slow the LAN is. For
example, if you've used Tomcat, you probably know that you have to wait a
few seconds whenever it starts to get the SecureRandom object going. I
suspect something similar must be happening because if your client continues
to send additional messages, the costs are not that high and become more
reasonable. Of course, faster XML parsers are always a good thing :)
> The idea of the protocol is to be completely platform
> independent, so the problems with interoperability between MS and Java
> servers, are simlpy due to various toolkits that "faciliate" development
of
> Web Services. Therefore, it seems logical to assume, that given enough
> effort (low enough level of implementation) these problems will be
> eventually solved (for example, by simple XML parsing without the use of
> WSDL, or other highlevel add-ons).
That's the idea, but the practice is not there yet. And with MSFT's
previous ways (IE5.5 still is not fully compliant with HTML4.0, CSS1, CSS2,
etc. -- except on the Mac as I understand it) and their declaration that
.NET is their new world order, it seems likely that in order to create "the
best" SOAP implementation, it will be forced to put all sorts of performance
and functionality enhancements that cause interoperability problems. You do
realize that web sites have to be tested on many different browser/OS combos
5 years after the big web boom because HTML and JavaScript/ECMAscript/CSS
just don't work the same on them all yet). And CORBA doesn't bring comfort
since they've gone a decade with interoperability problems.
> However, I am interested whether anyone thinks that SOAP is also useful in
> LAN communications, where the software ran by computers, transport
protocol
> implementation, as well as network type and performance is all under
> control. Does it makes sense to use RPC calls that generate huge packet
> sizes (XML Envelopes), when every endpoint can just agree on any format
> even simple memory dumps...
>
> Do people see SOAP being used in these settings, or is this the kind of
> area better suited by CORBA or Java RMI?
If the solution were purely in a LAN, I'd only vote for SOAP if there were
some multi-language/OS interoperability issue that you found you could
really solve with SOAP kits for the various solutions. RMI and CORBA will
be faster for a LAN, but could be short-sighted. Are you sure that a LAN
solution today won't really need to be an Internet solution tomorrow? <wink>
David
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Re: SOAP in local networks
Posted by David Wall <dw...@Yozons.com>.
> Reading the on-going discussion about SOAP performance (or lack thereof),
> it seems that it is only suitable for cases when client and server are
> geographically dispursed and reside on the Internet rather than a local
> area network. Thus, users are willing to sacrifice the speed of the data
> transfer for interoperability, simplicity of use, and ability to go
through
> firewalls.
Personally, I suspect there is either a bug or some special initialization
that occurs on the first Call. The performance (taking 2-4 seconds) is
unexplainable now how the XML is parsed or how slow the LAN is. For
example, if you've used Tomcat, you probably know that you have to wait a
few seconds whenever it starts to get the SecureRandom object going. I
suspect something similar must be happening because if your client continues
to send additional messages, the costs are not that high and become more
reasonable. Of course, faster XML parsers are always a good thing :)
> The idea of the protocol is to be completely platform
> independent, so the problems with interoperability between MS and Java
> servers, are simlpy due to various toolkits that "faciliate" development
of
> Web Services. Therefore, it seems logical to assume, that given enough
> effort (low enough level of implementation) these problems will be
> eventually solved (for example, by simple XML parsing without the use of
> WSDL, or other highlevel add-ons).
That's the idea, but the practice is not there yet. And with MSFT's
previous ways (IE5.5 still is not fully compliant with HTML4.0, CSS1, CSS2,
etc. -- except on the Mac as I understand it) and their declaration that
.NET is their new world order, it seems likely that in order to create "the
best" SOAP implementation, it will be forced to put all sorts of performance
and functionality enhancements that cause interoperability problems. You do
realize that web sites have to be tested on many different browser/OS combos
5 years after the big web boom because HTML and JavaScript/ECMAscript/CSS
just don't work the same on them all yet). And CORBA doesn't bring comfort
since they've gone a decade with interoperability problems.
> However, I am interested whether anyone thinks that SOAP is also useful in
> LAN communications, where the software ran by computers, transport
protocol
> implementation, as well as network type and performance is all under
> control. Does it makes sense to use RPC calls that generate huge packet
> sizes (XML Envelopes), when every endpoint can just agree on any format
> even simple memory dumps...
>
> Do people see SOAP being used in these settings, or is this the kind of
> area better suited by CORBA or Java RMI?
If the solution were purely in a LAN, I'd only vote for SOAP if there were
some multi-language/OS interoperability issue that you found you could
really solve with SOAP kits for the various solutions. RMI and CORBA will
be faster for a LAN, but could be short-sighted. Are you sure that a LAN
solution today won't really need to be an Internet solution tomorrow? <wink>
David
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Re: SOAP in local networks
Posted by Aleksander Slominski <as...@cs.indiana.edu>.
Alex Kordun wrote:
> Reading the on-going discussion about SOAP performance (or lack thereof),
> it seems that it is only suitable for cases when client and server are
> geographically dispursed and reside on the Internet rather than a local
> area network. Thus, users are willing to sacrifice the speed of the data
> transfer for interoperability, simplicity of use, and ability to go through
> firewalls. The idea of the protocol is to be completely platform
> independent, so the problems with interoperability between MS and Java
> servers, are simlpy due to various toolkits that "faciliate" development of
> Web Services. Therefore, it seems logical to assume, that given enough
> effort (low enough level of implementation) these problems will be
> eventually solved (for example, by simple XML parsing without the use of
> WSDL, or other highlevel add-ons).
or maybe not.
i do not think there will be ever one solution be it Java RMI, CORBA, SOAP,
JMS, ebXML/SOAP, JXTA or whatever. in my opinion smart move is to expose
network infrastructure only as much as needed but to build on abstractions such
as RPC call, RMI API etc. this way you can envision writing programs that will
adapt to underlying runtime system. for example in LAN interconnected
applications switch to CORBA or if both are Java they talk Java RMI otherwise
they fall back to common denominator and SOAP seems like pretty good bet here
:-)
> However, I am interested whether anyone thinks that SOAP is also useful in
> LAN communications, where the software ran by computers, transport protocol
> implementation, as well as network type and performance is all under
> control. Does it makes sense to use RPC calls that generate huge packet
> sizes (XML Envelopes), when every endpoint can just agree on any format
> even simple memory dumps...
it depends how long you want to wait and how much CPU you can allocate for
necessary overhead (such as mentioned XML parsing) :-)
> Do people see SOAP being used in these settings, or is this the kind of
> area better suited by CORBA or Java RMI?
SOAP has nice side - simplicity - even if interoperability is not yet there i
can read SOAP spec in few hours and fix most of problems just by groking
XML/XSD/SOAP specs.
thanks,
alek
--
Aleksander Slominski, LH 316, IU, http://www.extreme.indiana.edu/~aslom
As I look afar I see neither cherry Nor tinted leaves Just a modest hut
on the coast In the dusk of Autumn nightfall - Fujiwara no Teika(1162-1241)
---------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: SOAP in local networks
Posted by William Brogden <wb...@bga.com>.
Alex Kordun wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> Reading the on-going discussion about SOAP performance (or lack thereof),
> it seems that it is only suitable for cases when client and server are
> geographically dispursed and reside on the Internet rather than a local
> area network. Thus, users are willing to sacrifice the speed of the data
> transfer for interoperability, simplicity of use, and ability to go through
> firewalls. The idea of the protocol is to be completely platform
> independent, so the problems with interoperability between MS and Java
> servers, are simlpy due to various toolkits that "faciliate" development of
> Web Services. Therefore, it seems logical to assume, that given enough
> effort (low enough level of implementation) these problems will be
> eventually solved (for example, by simple XML parsing without the use of
> WSDL, or other highlevel add-ons).
>
> However, I am interested whether anyone thinks that SOAP is also useful in
> LAN communications, where the software ran by computers, transport protocol
> implementation, as well as network type and performance is all under
> control. Does it makes sense to use RPC calls that generate huge packet
> sizes (XML Envelopes), when every endpoint can just agree on any format
> even simple memory dumps...
>
> Do people see SOAP being used in these settings, or is this the kind of
> area better suited by CORBA or Java RMI?
>
> Alex
There is always SOAP's simpler cousin - XMLRPC which might be better
for the total control situation www.xmlrpc.com
--
WBB - wbrogden@lanw.com
Java Cert mock exams http://www.lanw.com/java/javacert/
Author of Java Developer's Guide to Servlets and JSP
ISBN 0-7821-2809-2
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