You are viewing a plain text version of this content. The canonical link for it is here.
Posted to community@apache.org by Justin Erenkrantz <je...@apache.org> on 2002/12/31 19:21:54 UTC
Re: Wiki RSS
--On Monday, December 30, 2002 16:56:04 -0500 "Andrew C. Oliver"
<ac...@apache.org> wrote:
> this over. The point being, this technology will allow passive
> notification based on topic selection in a way not found on mail lists.
> And of course the sources to the wiki
I'd much prefer mailing list notifications over RSS feeds. These types of
notifications shouldn't be pull. Push-based notifications suit this
problem domain far better than pull-based approaches. It also allows
archiving of the changes. (We can recreate our entire CVS archive in the
event of a castrophic failure just from the complete CVS commit archives.)
Let's just create a wiki@ mailing list and send everything there. Have it
send unified diff's in the style of our CVS mailer. -- justin
Re: Wiki RSS
Posted by "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org>.
> eheh, sure. But XML is just a syntax and RSS is just a semantic. If I
> have no tool that reads RSS and does something good with it for me,
> it's useless data. Well-formed and valid, but still useless.
<smirk size="big"/>
Gosh stefano, you ought to try this: http://xml.apache.org/cocoon --
there is a "slashdot" example in there that I think is RSS based and I'm
sure it could be
adapted...
>
> I emphasize *to me* because I don't run RSS feeds, nor have *any*
> intention of doing it since newsfeeds don't go along very well with my
> off-line habits (mine and those of million others throughout the world
> which aren't as lucky as many here).
>
> Unlike good old asynchronous email.
I switched to gmane.org for most things...
>
>> I am not convinced this is a good idea.... Might be a great tool for
>> spamming or exploiting sendmail.....
>
>
> Hmmm, pretty damn good point, didn't think of this one.
>
>> Could be wrong... I'm kinda a paranoid administrator...
>
>
> Yeah, well, I'm no system administrator and definately not paranoid
> these days but I think I know enough about email to question if this
> is a real security concern or just paranoia.
>
> I don't think it's possible to write something in a wiki, get it
> picked up, sent to a mail list, infect a sendmail of some sort simply
> by receiving the message (we use qmail, so no problem from our side,
> I'm concerned on the mail list subscriber receiver end) and do
> something nasty.
>
> If that was possible, then a normal spam flood would do as much damage.
>
> The only thing I see is people abusing the wiki to place shameless
> plugs of themselves that get submitted to the mail list.
>
> But email doesn't really change the picture there.
>
> So, call me liberal but I think we have more to loose than to gain in
> not allowing diffs forwarding to the mail lists.
I'm pretty sure that authentication and "direct" mail notification are
mutually exclusive, I'm happy to be proven wrong... but let me paint you
a picture...
> I don't think I get your point, Andy. What is this different from
> direct diff emailing?
andy = ConvertToHappySpammer(andy); //Andy == object
Script script = andy.writesScriptToScreenScrapeAndInteroperateWithWiki();
List emails = EmailListFactory.generateList("http://google.com");
Iterator i = emails.iterator();
int x = 0;
while(i.hasNext()) {
String emailaddy = (String)i.next();
String seedContent = "";
String pornAd = getPornAd();
WikiPage page = script.createPage("GetYourPornHere" +
convertNumberToString(x), seedContent);
script.setEmailNotification(emailaddy, page);
script.setPageContent(page, pornAd);
x++;
}
Isn't that cool?
With the scripted batch approach with the settings stored in a CVS
committer controlled file, this wouldn't work... To set up notification
you'd have to
have access to CVS. Granted you could still spam the list by creating
pages, but thats much less fun than spamming whomever you want....
An admin controlled system would also work... But then one would need
volunteer admins interested in doing that... ;-)
>
> As I said, I'm not advocating against it, I'm just saying that we need
> email nofication also.
And thats fine if someone contributes the patchs, I'll happily apply them...
>> Its highly feasible, I just don't know how "wise" the facilities
>> provided are (letting someone say "sure mail this out to here" seems
>> dangerous...) The above suggestion is probably more secure, easy to
>> implement, etc.
>
>
> I'll let the more sys-adm-savy people take a shot there.
>
That wouldn't be me. I'm happy to do maintenance and patches but no
development on wikis... Too boring and most of the features requested,
I don't
plan on using...
-andy
Re: Wiki RSS
Posted by Stefano Mazzocchi <st...@apache.org>.
Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
>> I agree with Justin, expecially because while email is a generally
>> used tool around the ASF, weblog and related technologies are not as
>> common.
>
> You know...One could have said that a couple years ago regarding XML
> technologies... Besides.. RSS is just XML.. .. We like XML right?
eheh, sure. But XML is just a syntax and RSS is just a semantic. If I
have no tool that reads RSS and does something good with it for me, it's
useless data. Well-formed and valid, but still useless.
I emphasize *to me* because I don't run RSS feeds, nor have *any*
intention of doing it since newsfeeds don't go along very well with my
off-line habits (mine and those of million others throughout the world
which aren't as lucky as many here).
Unlike good old asynchronous email.
But I'm not saying that it's a bad idea to have it, gosh no, just that
it is not a general-enough technology for people to use it instead of
email notification.
>> Also, I think that 'page-based' RSS it way too granular.
>
>
> Look at this:
> http://superlinksoftware.com/cgi-bin/jugwikitest.pl?action=rss
>
> It looks like I was wrong. . Its not per page.. Its the recent changes
> syndicated as rss... I thought it was per page... ooops.
Oh, great, that removes one of my concerns. Cool.
>>> Let's just create a wiki@ mailing list and send everything there.
>>> Have it send unified diff's in the style of our CVS mailer. -- justin
>>
>>
>>
>> If I had to choose I'd rather prefer to send the udiffs to the various
>> mail lists that control their areas.
>>
> To be honest there's a fat chance you're getting udiffs. <funny
> requestedaction="laugh">Thats like asking a kangaroo to shit turtles.. .
> </funny>
> You most likely will get diffs which will match what is written to the
> wiki file that will make sense.
> To enable this someone needs but to submit the appropriate patches and
> I'll be pleased to install them.
Don't count on me :(
>>
>> Think about having cvs@apache.org with *all* CVS commits going thru, I
>> don't think that anybody would stand such a low signal/noise ratio and
>> I fear this might be happening here if the wiki takes off.
>
>
> Yes... I think the wiki is set up to allow you to specify mail lists
> for those.
Ah, good to know.
> I am not convinced this is a good idea.... Might be a great
> tool for spamming or exploiting sendmail.....
Hmmm, pretty damn good point, didn't think of this one.
> Could be wrong...
> I'm kinda a paranoid administrator...
Yeah, well, I'm no system administrator and definately not paranoid
these days but I think I know enough about email to question if this is
a real security concern or just paranoia.
I don't think it's possible to write something in a wiki, get it picked
up, sent to a mail list, infect a sendmail of some sort simply by
receiving the message (we use qmail, so no problem from our side, I'm
concerned on the mail list subscriber receiver end) and do something nasty.
If that was possible, then a normal spam flood would do as much damage.
The only thing I see is people abusing the wiki to place shameless plugs
of themselves that get submitted to the mail list.
But email doesn't really change the picture there.
So, call me liberal but I think we have more to loose than to gain in
not allowing diffs forwarding to the mail lists.
> If it were just up to me, I'd ask
> someone to write a script that goes and does this in a batch based on
> some rules in a cvs module (so that access was restricted)...
>
> roles:
> crontab {
> bootstrap running daily/hourly/whatever
> }
>
> bootstrap.sh {
> checks out latest version of myscript and its settings
> runs it
> }
>
> myScriptThingy.pl/py/whatever {
> reads the wiki database, sends mail notificaiton of changes to
> various lists based on rules (perhaps just simple regex or something)
> specified in myDataFile
> }
>
> myDataFile {
> "Cocoon*, *Cocoon, *cocoon, *cocoon*, *Cocoon*",
> cocoon-dev@xml.apache.org, "message from your loving ApacheWiki....daily
> diffs";
> "POI*, POI*, *poi, *poi*, *POI*, Poi*,*Poi,*Poi*",
> cocoon-dev@xml.apache.org, "come and get it, fresh POI served from the
> ApacheWiki";
> }
I don't think I get your point, Andy. What is this different from direct
diff emailing?
>> In short, while a single-page RSS is too specific, a wiki-wide diff
>> mail list is way to general.
>
>
> I think the RSS is useful. check it out:
>
> http://superlinksoftware.com/cgi-bin/jugwikitest.pl?action=rss
As I said, I'm not advocating against it, I'm just saying that we need
email nofication also.
>> My personal suggestion would be to find a way to partition the wiki
>> pages per project and send those diffs to the various project mail lists.
>>
>> But I have no idea on how difficult/feasible that is with the current
>> software.
>
>
> Its highly feasible, I just don't know how "wise" the facilities
> provided are (letting someone say "sure mail this out to here" seems
> dangerous...) The above suggestion is probably more secure, easy to
> implement, etc.
I'll let the more sys-adm-savy people take a shot there.
--
Stefano Mazzocchi <st...@apache.org>
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: Wiki RSS
Posted by "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org>.
>
>
>>
>>
>> I'd much prefer mailing list notifications over RSS feeds. These
>> types of notifications shouldn't be pull. Push-based notifications
>> suit this problem domain far better than pull-based approaches. It
>> also allows archiving of the changes. (We can recreate our entire
>> CVS archive in the event of a castrophic failure just from the
>> complete CVS commit archives.)
>
>
> I agree with Justin, expecially because while email is a generally
> used tool around the ASF, weblog and related technologies are not as
> common.
You know...One could have said that a couple years ago regarding XML
technologies... Besides.. RSS is just XML.. .. We like XML right?
>
> Also, I think that 'page-based' RSS it way too granular.
Look at this:
http://superlinksoftware.com/cgi-bin/jugwikitest.pl?action=rss
It looks like I was wrong. . Its not per page.. Its the recent changes
syndicated as rss... I thought it was per page... ooops.
>
>> Let's just create a wiki@ mailing list and send everything there.
>> Have it send unified diff's in the style of our CVS mailer. -- justin
>
>
> If I had to choose I'd rather prefer to send the udiffs to the various
> mail lists that control their areas.
>
To be honest there's a fat chance you're getting udiffs. <funny
requestedaction="laugh">Thats like asking a kangaroo to shit turtles.. .
</funny>
You most likely will get diffs which will match what is written to the
wiki file that will make sense.
To enable this someone needs but to submit the appropriate patches and
I'll be pleased to install them.
>
> Think about having cvs@apache.org with *all* CVS commits going thru, I
> don't think that anybody would stand such a low signal/noise ratio and
> I fear this might be happening here if the wiki takes off.
Yes... I think the wiki is set up to allow you to specify mail lists
for those. I am not convinced this is a good idea.... Might be a great
tool for spamming or exploiting sendmail.....Could be wrong...
I'm kinda a paranoid administrator... If it were just up to me, I'd ask
someone to write a script that goes and does this in a batch based on
some rules in a cvs module (so that access was restricted)...
roles:
crontab {
bootstrap running daily/hourly/whatever
}
bootstrap.sh {
checks out latest version of myscript and its settings
runs it
}
myScriptThingy.pl/py/whatever {
reads the wiki database, sends mail notificaiton of changes to
various lists based on rules (perhaps just simple regex or something)
specified in myDataFile
}
myDataFile {
"Cocoon*, *Cocoon, *cocoon, *cocoon*, *Cocoon*",
cocoon-dev@xml.apache.org, "message from your loving ApacheWiki....daily
diffs";
"POI*, POI*, *poi, *poi*, *POI*, Poi*,*Poi,*Poi*",
cocoon-dev@xml.apache.org, "come and get it, fresh POI served from the
ApacheWiki";
}
>
> In short, while a single-page RSS is too specific, a wiki-wide diff
> mail list is way to general.
I think the RSS is useful. check it out:
http://superlinksoftware.com/cgi-bin/jugwikitest.pl?action=rss
>
> My personal suggestion would be to find a way to partition the wiki
> pages per project and send those diffs to the various project mail lists.
>
> But I have no idea on how difficult/feasible that is with the current
> software.
Its highly feasible, I just don't know how "wise" the facilities
provided are (letting someone say "sure mail this out to here" seems
dangerous...)
The above suggestion is probably more secure, easy to implement, etc.
Re: Wiki RSS
Posted by "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org>.
enable tables without enabling raw html.. . that would be my first
interest...
Rich Bowen wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>Hash: SHA1
>
>On Tue, 31 Dec 2002, Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
>
>
>
>>Noel J. Bergman wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>How good a PERL coder are you?
>>>
>>>
>>I'm *no* Perl coder whatsoever.
>>
>>
>
>I have spent many many painful hours working on the UseModWiki code. It
>seems to be very good code, but it is large and complex. I think that if
>I had a very specific idea of what I was trying to accomplish, I might
>be able to make things happen.
>
>- --
>Rich Bowen - rbowen@rcbowen.com
>Author - Apache Administrator's Guide
>http://www.ApacheAdmin.com/
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
>Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux)
>Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.75-6
>
>iD8DBQE+EjW4XP03+sx4yJMRAsBqAKDg8fnPig2Y4fxYz9BUKcD77pvBfwCg4IGo
>eio28cPedEVqYYuo7McoD+U=
>=b9Av
>-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>
>
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>To unsubscribe, e-mail: community-unsubscribe@apache.org
>For additional commands, e-mail: community-help@apache.org
>
>
>
>
Re: Wiki RSS
Posted by Rich Bowen <rb...@rcbowen.com>.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
On Tue, 31 Dec 2002, Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
> Noel J. Bergman wrote:
>
> > How good a PERL coder are you?
>
> I'm *no* Perl coder whatsoever.
I have spent many many painful hours working on the UseModWiki code. It
seems to be very good code, but it is large and complex. I think that if
I had a very specific idea of what I was trying to accomplish, I might
be able to make things happen.
- --
Rich Bowen - rbowen@rcbowen.com
Author - Apache Administrator's Guide
http://www.ApacheAdmin.com/
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.75-6
iD8DBQE+EjW4XP03+sx4yJMRAsBqAKDg8fnPig2Y4fxYz9BUKcD77pvBfwCg4IGo
eio28cPedEVqYYuo7McoD+U=
=b9Av
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
Re: Wiki RSS
Posted by Stefano Mazzocchi <st...@apache.org>.
Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> How good a PERL coder are you?
I'm *no* Perl coder whatsoever.
I sware I tried several times because I figured that if so many people
use it there must be a reason for it... but failed and went to Python
for my scripting needs :)
--
Stefano Mazzocchi <st...@apache.org>
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: Wiki RSS
Posted by "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org>.
<perl-bashing requestedaction="ignore,agree">
I'm a crappy perl coder -- and I prefer not to code in PERL... (though I
do it every day you'll be hard
pressed to get me to do any serious perl coding as a volunteer ;-) )
</perl-bashing>
I highly suggest you look on the UseModWiki (see ApacheWiki follow the
links). I think you'll find
a number of patches available.. They seem to be incapable of using
"diff" which means its "go here and
edit this then do that above this" kind of crap.... However, i'll bet
you can find a number of things...
That being said.. I'd rather leave authentication off unless we have to
turn it on... Which incorporates a
limitation as to what we can do stock. (We might need 2 modes...but I
think I prefer secure batch scripts and
stuff running in CVS)
I don't see myself in participating in coding enhancements on the wiki
as tis not my itch to do so, but I
will be very happy to apply patches (in diff -u format) and the such....
I could use a hand with this XML::RSS mod local installing stuff...
(willing to spring for a phone call inside
the continental US/Canada).... Got some good advice from a PERL
hacker....but I might need someone to
spoon feed me...
-Andy
>How good a PERL coder are you? [Actually, Danny Angus had mentioned that he
>might look at this, but this time of year is busy for everyone] There is a
>page record. It seemed to me that it ought to be feasible to add a field to
>each page record with a mailing list address, and then mail change
>notifications from the edit, when the edit is not minor. This would be
>additional to what appears to be an admin request/requirement for changes to
>be posted to an mailing list for logging purposes. But my PERL is
>infrequently exercised, and I haven't had time to look at the details of
>implementing the change.
>
> --- Noel
>
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>To unsubscribe, e-mail: community-unsubscribe@apache.org
>For additional commands, e-mail: community-help@apache.org
>
>
>
>
RE: Wiki RSS
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
> Yeah its still on my radar Noel, but as you say, I have to bond with my
> kids...
If I were you, I know where my priority would be. :-) Happy Holidays.
--- Noel
RE: Wiki RSS
Posted by Danny Angus <da...@apache.org>.
> How good a PERL coder are you? [Actually, Danny Angus had
> mentioned that he
> might look at this, but this time of year is busy for everyone]
Yeah its still on my radar Noel, but as you say, I have to bond with my
kids...
d.
RE: Wiki RSS
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
> My personal suggestion would be to find a way to partition the wiki
> pages per project and send those diffs to the various project mail
> lists.
> But I have no idea on how difficult/feasible that is with the current
> software.
How good a PERL coder are you? [Actually, Danny Angus had mentioned that he
might look at this, but this time of year is busy for everyone] There is a
page record. It seemed to me that it ought to be feasible to add a field to
each page record with a mailing list address, and then mail change
notifications from the edit, when the edit is not minor. This would be
additional to what appears to be an admin request/requirement for changes to
be posted to an mailing list for logging purposes. But my PERL is
infrequently exercised, and I haven't had time to look at the details of
implementing the change.
--- Noel
Re: Wiki RSS
Posted by "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org>.
> If you change the script to compute the database path from url that
> invoked it. Then setting up multiple wiki's becomes trivial to
> automate. Inter-wiki linking was trivial for me to setup at my
> house. Though I see it didn't work out well for Andrew.
No.. I just didn't try. Patches welcome.
>
> Per project wiki would also enable some other experimenting.
> Something along the lines of http://httpd.wiki.apache.org / probably
> allows a range of sufficiently diverse and confusing futures.
I've no drive to contribute to that effort, but thats fine if you do.
-Andy
>
> - ben
>
> "The site of the true bottomless financial pit is the toy store."
>
> ps. Why is there no Starbucks at the ER? Why is there no shipping
> service at airport security?
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: community-unsubscribe@apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: community-help@apache.org
>
>
Re: Wiki RSS
Posted by Ben Hyde <bh...@pobox.com>.
> My personal suggestion would be to find a way to partition the wiki
> pages per project and send those diffs to the various project mail
> lists.
Yeah, then the different projects can make their own choices about
lowering the barrier to entry vs. raising the quality bar. That is
both something that the foundation should not own the responsibility
for. Note that at the present moment oversight for the wiki - ah work
product - is probably defaulting into the infrastructure PMC - that's
not stable.
This particular wiki software is quite lean, I suspect it's a little
too lean - and GPL. As you've pointed out it's really a CMS, and as we
all know that's a bottomless pit.
If you change the script to compute the database path from url that
invoked it. Then setting up multiple wiki's becomes trivial to
automate. Inter-wiki linking was trivial for me to setup at my house.
Though I see it didn't work out well for Andrew.
Per project wiki would also enable some other experimenting. Something
along the lines of http://httpd.wiki.apache.org / probably allows a
range of sufficiently diverse and confusing futures.
- ben
"The site of the true bottomless financial pit is the toy store."
ps. Why is there no Starbucks at the ER? Why is there no shipping
service at airport security?
Re: Wiki RSS
Posted by Stefano Mazzocchi <st...@apache.org>.
Justin Erenkrantz wrote:
> --On Monday, December 30, 2002 16:56:04 -0500 "Andrew C. Oliver"
> <ac...@apache.org> wrote:
>
>> this over. The point being, this technology will allow passive
>> notification based on topic selection in a way not found on mail lists.
>> And of course the sources to the wiki
>
>
> I'd much prefer mailing list notifications over RSS feeds. These types
> of notifications shouldn't be pull. Push-based notifications suit this
> problem domain far better than pull-based approaches. It also allows
> archiving of the changes. (We can recreate our entire CVS archive in
> the event of a castrophic failure just from the complete CVS commit
> archives.)
I agree with Justin, expecially because while email is a generally used
tool around the ASF, weblog and related technologies are not as common.
Also, I think that 'page-based' RSS it way too granular.
> Let's just create a wiki@ mailing list and send everything there. Have
> it send unified diff's in the style of our CVS mailer. -- justin
If I had to choose I'd rather prefer to send the udiffs to the various
mail lists that control their areas.
Think about having cvs@apache.org with *all* CVS commits going thru, I
don't think that anybody would stand such a low signal/noise ratio and I
fear this might be happening here if the wiki takes off.
In short, while a single-page RSS is too specific, a wiki-wide diff mail
list is way to general.
My personal suggestion would be to find a way to partition the wiki
pages per project and send those diffs to the various project mail lists.
But I have no idea on how difficult/feasible that is with the current
software.
--
Stefano Mazzocchi <st...@apache.org>
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: Wiki RSS
Posted by Ben Hyde <bh...@pobox.com>.
> Is there an engine that can pull from RSS on one side, and e-mail on
> another?
:-) It is probably the other way around. Email renders the
events, RSS tends to summarize those events.
A mail to RSS bridge is a variation on archiving.
http://nagoya.apache.org/wiki/apachewiki.cgi?MailArchive
I believe mailman's archiving does this.
- ben
ps. All protocols should have bridges to all other protocols.
Email->Corba!
RE: Wiki RSS
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
> I'd much prefer mailing list notifications over RSS feeds. These types of
> notifications shouldn't be pull.
Is there an engine that can pull from RSS on one side, and e-mail on
another? [Something to add to the nice-to-have list for James]
--- Noel