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Posted to dev@struts.apache.org by netsql <ne...@roomity.com> on 2005/11/26 14:55:17 UTC
home page of struts lists related projects....
I think home page should include a link to sister project:
http://ibatis.apache.org
I'd say a lot of users use it.
And struts still does not have a dao api, a big minus.
There are other projects listed on home page/releated projects and I'd
argue that iBatis is #1 related project.
oto further... some distro of Struts should include iBatis DAO (not the
SQL Map, and include JSTL, etc. and not include logic, bean tag anymore,
maybe even Java WebParts, Struts Menu, displaytag included, etc.)
.V
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Re: home page of struts lists related projects....
Posted by Martin Cooper <ma...@apache.org>.
On 11/26/05, netsql <ne...@roomity.com> wrote:
>
> I think home page should include a link to sister project:
> http://ibatis.apache.org
>
> I'd say a lot of users use it.
> And struts still does not have a dao api, a big minus.
As Ted mentioned, to many people, including myself, this is a big plus.
There are other projects listed on home page/releated projects and I'd
> argue that iBatis is #1 related project.
I'd say Hibernate is the #1 DB-related project. Both of the companies that
I'm aware of whose core business is supporting Open Source stacks that
include Struts combine it with Hibernate, rather than iBATIS, and they do
that because that's what their customers are demanding.
--
Martin Cooper
oto further... some distro of Struts should include iBatis DAO (not the
> SQL Map, and include JSTL, etc. and not include logic, bean tag anymore,
> maybe even Java WebParts, Struts Menu, displaytag included, etc.)
>
> .V
>
>
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> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@struts.apache.org
>
>
Re: home page of struts lists related projects....
Posted by Wendy Smoak <ws...@gmail.com>.
On 11/26/05, netsql <ne...@roomity.com> wrote:
> Idea is that one would not have to set up a project, that's boring.
Exactly. :) It's
mvn archetype:create ...
mvn idea:idea <-- pick your IDE
... and open the project.
> Key is that time be spent that choices be as simple as possible.
> If you are doing that in Maven, great, especialy that it would keep the
> jars up to date to latest. What is the svn url if any?
The 'Struts Blank Archetype' is in the sandbox, but it's not going to
do anything useful until the 1.3 artifacts are in a repository. (You
can install them, but it's rather a lot of typing, and it assumes you
have Maven 2 installed. See the README.)
I'm not sure I'm going to go further than Struts Blank and Shale
Blank, at least not here. Frank and Martin already brought up the
issue of endorsing any particular solution, plus the problem of what
combination of things to provide.
--
Wendy
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Re: home page of struts lists related projects....
Posted by "Frank W. Zammetti" <fz...@omnytex.com>.
Martin Cooper wrote:
> Adding this kind of how-to to the wiki is a perfect use of the wiki,
> although I'd be leery of having a boatload of links directly from the Struts
> home page. (Imagine all the combinations we might end up with.
Absolutely, a bunch of links would be a mess... but a single link under
the Development heading to a page with all the links (think
master-detail essentially) I think would be rather helpful.
Then again, I suppose one could argue that simply better organizing the
Wiki front page would do the trick nicely :) Perhaps *that's* the
discussion that should ensue...
Frank
> --
> Martin Cooper
>
>
> Weny et al, how about adding a HOWTOs link under the Development header
>
>>on the site? The resultant page would just be a list of links to
>>various Wiki pages and/or other web pages with such information. That
>>puts all that stuff two clicks away. Of course, I'm not sure how much
>>of "that stuff" there actually *is* at the moment ;)
>>
>>Frank
>>
>>netsql wrote:
>>
>>>Wendy Smoak wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>A "full stack" distribution that included Struts is a good idea, but
>>>>>it seems outside the scope of Apache Struts right now.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Vic, are you thinking of a full example app, or of something more like
>>>>AppFuse that sets up a project for you?
>>>>
>>>>I'm playing with Maven 2 archetypes at the moment. These are intended
>>>>to jump-start application development by setting up the directory
>>>>structure, build files, and as much content as the archetype creator
>>>>wants to provide. (Maven will retrieve the dependencies, so rather
>>>>than distribute them, you just declare them in pom.xml.)
>>>>
>>>
>>>Someplace in btw a mini sample and setup. Set up project w/ ant build,
>>>junit, src, tst, tomcat re-load url (since some people think you can't
>>>reload in development) and make some choices: ibatis, jstl, rico, struts
>>>menu, jtds, etc. and include.
>>>And then super mini sample application, more like template files that
>>>can be copied for master detail.
>>>(Since I don't do "HTML" sites in about a year and one half I would only
>>>spend little time and would not realy test it ... circual: since I would
>>>not use it myself).
>>>Idea is that one would not have to set up a project, that's boring.
>>>Key is that time be spent that choices be as simple as possible.
>>>If you are doing that in Maven, great, especialy that it would keep the
>>>jars up to date to latest. What is the svn url if any?
>>>
>>>Let me see what you come up w/ and maybe change it and put it on
>>>struts.sf.net. Also have to wait on a better download of 1.3.
>>>I don't want to learn Maven if at all possible, there's an ant
>>>downloader plugin someplace. But a great idea of auto downloading
>>>latest jars, by the time all the dependencies.... that's a lot of
>>
>>changes.
>>
>>>.V
>>>
>>>(ot/ps: why are some people still doing html websites?? all the dail up
>>>modem users out there ;-) )
>>>
>>>
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>>>To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
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>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>--
>>Frank W. Zammetti
>>Founder and Chief Software Architect
>>Omnytex Technologies
>>http://www.omnytex.com
>>AIM: fzammetti
>>Yahoo: fzammetti
>>MSN: fzammetti@hotmail.com
>>
>>---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>>For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@struts.apache.org
>>
>>
>
>
--
Frank W. Zammetti
Founder and Chief Software Architect
Omnytex Technologies
http://www.omnytex.com
AIM: fzammetti
Yahoo: fzammetti
MSN: fzammetti@hotmail.com
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Re: home page of struts lists related projects....
Posted by Martin Cooper <ma...@apache.org>.
On 11/26/05, Frank W. Zammetti <fz...@omnytex.com> wrote:
>
> I personally would *NOT* want to see anything on the Apache Struts site
> that has any extras (from outside the Struts project itself) in it, in
> any combination, even my own Java Web Parts :)
>
> The reason is that if there was a package on the Apache Struts site I
> could download that included iBatis for example, that's almost an
> implicit promotion of iBatis over Hibernate and Torque and everything
> else. I don't think that's the message that should be conveyed.
> Likewise, Java Web Parts as another example, is not the only such
> project out there, and while obviously I think it's a good answer in
> many cases, it shouldn't be promoted over any other such project by
> Apache Struts, explicitly or implicitly.
Exactly! And, as Ted mentioned, those extras just become cruft to people who
don't want to use that exact combination of packages.
For example, in my most recently completed project, we built a front end to
a high availability grid system, and used the system's custom protocol to
talk to it. What would be the point of having iBATIS thrown in there?
Also, people can already obtain (commercially supported) full stacks
including Struts, from elsewhere. For example:
http://www.sourcelabs.com/?page=software&sub=sash
I don't see a need to do that as part of the Struts project.
That being said, I'm with everyone else that says HOWTOs and Wiki pages
> making it as easy as possible for someone to add in all these things is
> a great idea, and I would definitely be behind them being even more
> prominently mentioned and linked to on the Struts site. If I want to
> learn how to set up iBatis with Struts for example, it would be great if
> I was always just a click or two away from the home page.
Adding this kind of how-to to the wiki is a perfect use of the wiki,
although I'd be leery of having a boatload of links directly from the Struts
home page. (Imagine all the combinations we might end up with.
--
Martin Cooper
Weny et al, how about adding a HOWTOs link under the Development header
> on the site? The resultant page would just be a list of links to
> various Wiki pages and/or other web pages with such information. That
> puts all that stuff two clicks away. Of course, I'm not sure how much
> of "that stuff" there actually *is* at the moment ;)
>
> Frank
>
> netsql wrote:
> > Wendy Smoak wrote:
> >
> >>
> >>
> >>> A "full stack" distribution that included Struts is a good idea, but
> >>> it seems outside the scope of Apache Struts right now.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Vic, are you thinking of a full example app, or of something more like
> >> AppFuse that sets up a project for you?
> >>
> >> I'm playing with Maven 2 archetypes at the moment. These are intended
> >> to jump-start application development by setting up the directory
> >> structure, build files, and as much content as the archetype creator
> >> wants to provide. (Maven will retrieve the dependencies, so rather
> >> than distribute them, you just declare them in pom.xml.)
> >>
> >
> > Someplace in btw a mini sample and setup. Set up project w/ ant build,
> > junit, src, tst, tomcat re-load url (since some people think you can't
> > reload in development) and make some choices: ibatis, jstl, rico, struts
> > menu, jtds, etc. and include.
> > And then super mini sample application, more like template files that
> > can be copied for master detail.
> > (Since I don't do "HTML" sites in about a year and one half I would only
> > spend little time and would not realy test it ... circual: since I would
> > not use it myself).
> > Idea is that one would not have to set up a project, that's boring.
> > Key is that time be spent that choices be as simple as possible.
> > If you are doing that in Maven, great, especialy that it would keep the
> > jars up to date to latest. What is the svn url if any?
> >
> > Let me see what you come up w/ and maybe change it and put it on
> > struts.sf.net. Also have to wait on a better download of 1.3.
> > I don't want to learn Maven if at all possible, there's an ant
> > downloader plugin someplace. But a great idea of auto downloading
> > latest jars, by the time all the dependencies.... that's a lot of
> changes.
> >
> > .V
> >
> > (ot/ps: why are some people still doing html websites?? all the dail up
> > modem users out there ;-) )
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@struts.apache.org
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> --
> Frank W. Zammetti
> Founder and Chief Software Architect
> Omnytex Technologies
> http://www.omnytex.com
> AIM: fzammetti
> Yahoo: fzammetti
> MSN: fzammetti@hotmail.com
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@struts.apache.org
>
>
Re: home page of struts lists related projects....
Posted by Martin Cooper <ma...@apache.org>.
On 11/26/05, netsql <ne...@roomity.com> wrote:
>
>
> JSTL?
> What about jUnit (or MockObject)?
> Ant (or Mave)
> And Rico ;-)
>
> etc.
>
> I would put it on struts.sf.net like I used to.
> There are too many choices, so just make not bad choices.
If you don't want to make bad choices, why did you include Rico in your list
above? ;-) That would most definitely count as a bad choice in my book.
--
Martin Cooper
.V
>
>
> Frank W. Zammetti wrote:
>
> >
> > The reason is that if there was a package on the Apache Struts site I
> > could download that included iBatis for example,
>
>
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> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@struts.apache.org
>
>
Re: home page of struts lists related projects....
Posted by netsql <ne...@roomity.com>.
JSTL?
What about jUnit (or MockObject)?
Ant (or Mave)
And Rico ;-)
etc.
I would put it on struts.sf.net like I used to.
There are too many choices, so just make not bad choices.
.V
Frank W. Zammetti wrote:
>
> The reason is that if there was a package on the Apache Struts site I
> could download that included iBatis for example,
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Re: home page of struts lists related projects....
Posted by "Frank W. Zammetti" <fz...@omnytex.com>.
I personally would *NOT* want to see anything on the Apache Struts site
that has any extras (from outside the Struts project itself) in it, in
any combination, even my own Java Web Parts :)
The reason is that if there was a package on the Apache Struts site I
could download that included iBatis for example, that's almost an
implicit promotion of iBatis over Hibernate and Torque and everything
else. I don't think that's the message that should be conveyed.
Likewise, Java Web Parts as another example, is not the only such
project out there, and while obviously I think it's a good answer in
many cases, it shouldn't be promoted over any other such project by
Apache Struts, explicitly or implicitly.
That being said, I'm with everyone else that says HOWTOs and Wiki pages
making it as easy as possible for someone to add in all these things is
a great idea, and I would definitely be behind them being even more
prominently mentioned and linked to on the Struts site. If I want to
learn how to set up iBatis with Struts for example, it would be great if
I was always just a click or two away from the home page.
Weny et al, how about adding a HOWTOs link under the Development header
on the site? The resultant page would just be a list of links to
various Wiki pages and/or other web pages with such information. That
puts all that stuff two clicks away. Of course, I'm not sure how much
of "that stuff" there actually *is* at the moment ;)
Frank
netsql wrote:
> Wendy Smoak wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>> A "full stack" distribution that included Struts is a good idea, but
>>> it seems outside the scope of Apache Struts right now.
>>
>>
>>
>> Vic, are you thinking of a full example app, or of something more like
>> AppFuse that sets up a project for you?
>>
>> I'm playing with Maven 2 archetypes at the moment. These are intended
>> to jump-start application development by setting up the directory
>> structure, build files, and as much content as the archetype creator
>> wants to provide. (Maven will retrieve the dependencies, so rather
>> than distribute them, you just declare them in pom.xml.)
>>
>
> Someplace in btw a mini sample and setup. Set up project w/ ant build,
> junit, src, tst, tomcat re-load url (since some people think you can't
> reload in development) and make some choices: ibatis, jstl, rico, struts
> menu, jtds, etc. and include.
> And then super mini sample application, more like template files that
> can be copied for master detail.
> (Since I don't do "HTML" sites in about a year and one half I would only
> spend little time and would not realy test it ... circual: since I would
> not use it myself).
> Idea is that one would not have to set up a project, that's boring.
> Key is that time be spent that choices be as simple as possible.
> If you are doing that in Maven, great, especialy that it would keep the
> jars up to date to latest. What is the svn url if any?
>
> Let me see what you come up w/ and maybe change it and put it on
> struts.sf.net. Also have to wait on a better download of 1.3.
> I don't want to learn Maven if at all possible, there's an ant
> downloader plugin someplace. But a great idea of auto downloading
> latest jars, by the time all the dependencies.... that's a lot of changes.
>
> .V
>
> (ot/ps: why are some people still doing html websites?? all the dail up
> modem users out there ;-) )
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@struts.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@struts.apache.org
>
>
>
>
--
Frank W. Zammetti
Founder and Chief Software Architect
Omnytex Technologies
http://www.omnytex.com
AIM: fzammetti
Yahoo: fzammetti
MSN: fzammetti@hotmail.com
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Re: home page of struts lists related projects....
Posted by netsql <ne...@roomity.com>.
Wendy Smoak wrote:
>
>
>>A "full stack" distribution that included Struts is a good idea, but
>>it seems outside the scope of Apache Struts right now.
>
>
> Vic, are you thinking of a full example app, or of something more like
> AppFuse that sets up a project for you?
>
> I'm playing with Maven 2 archetypes at the moment. These are intended
> to jump-start application development by setting up the directory
> structure, build files, and as much content as the archetype creator
> wants to provide. (Maven will retrieve the dependencies, so rather
> than distribute them, you just declare them in pom.xml.)
>
Someplace in btw a mini sample and setup. Set up project w/ ant build,
junit, src, tst, tomcat re-load url (since some people think you can't
reload in development) and make some choices: ibatis, jstl, rico, struts
menu, jtds, etc. and include.
And then super mini sample application, more like template files that
can be copied for master detail.
(Since I don't do "HTML" sites in about a year and one half I would only
spend little time and would not realy test it ... circual: since I would
not use it myself).
Idea is that one would not have to set up a project, that's boring.
Key is that time be spent that choices be as simple as possible.
If you are doing that in Maven, great, especialy that it would keep the
jars up to date to latest. What is the svn url if any?
Let me see what you come up w/ and maybe change it and put it on
struts.sf.net. Also have to wait on a better download of 1.3.
I don't want to learn Maven if at all possible, there's an ant
downloader plugin someplace. But a great idea of auto downloading
latest jars, by the time all the dependencies.... that's a lot of changes.
.V
(ot/ps: why are some people still doing html websites?? all the dail up
modem users out there ;-) )
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Re: home page of struts lists related projects....
Posted by Wendy Smoak <ws...@gmail.com>.
On 11/26/05, Ted Husted <te...@gmail.com> wrote:
> (I also thing an IDEA HOWTO would be a great addition for
> the IDE section.)
I started a page on the Wiki when I noticed how out of date the IDE
guides were (last summer.) I think they've seen some updates since
then, but the Wiki page is still available if anyone would like to
contribute to it:
http://wiki.apache.org/struts/StrutsIDEGuides
My initial intent was to get help with IDEA, having just started using
it. (Thanks, JetBrains!) But two days in, everything Just Worked and
I couldn't really think of anything Struts-specific to write. I'm
sure I haven't figured out a quarter of what it can do, though.
> A "full stack" distribution that included Struts is a good idea, but
> it seems outside the scope of Apache Struts right now.
Vic, are you thinking of a full example app, or of something more like
AppFuse that sets up a project for you?
I'm playing with Maven 2 archetypes at the moment. These are intended
to jump-start application development by setting up the directory
structure, build files, and as much content as the archetype creator
wants to provide. (Maven will retrieve the dependencies, so rather
than distribute them, you just declare them in pom.xml.)
--
Wendy
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Re: home page of struts lists related projects....
Posted by Ted Husted <te...@gmail.com>.
On 11/26/05, netsql <ne...@roomity.com> wrote:
> I think home page should include a link to sister project:
> http://ibatis.apache.org
> I'd say a lot of users use it.
> And struts still does not have a dao api, a big minus.
And others might believe it is a big plus, since many teams have their
own thoughts about what a DAO API should look like. The Struts Action
Framework was built on the idea that it is a lightweight core that can
be easily extended.
> There are other projects listed on home page/releated projects and I'd
> argue that iBatis is #1 related project.
We do have links to iBATIS, as well as similar products like
Hibernate, in the documentation. There's a link to iBATIS in the
Database HowTo
* http://struts.apache.org/struts-action/faqs/db-howto.html
and another to the iBATIS JPetstore on the Learning page
* http://struts.apache.org/struts-action/learning.html
which, speaking as both a Struts and iBATIS committer, seems sufficient.
If someone wanted to contribute a Struts-specific iBATIS HOWTO, we
could plug that into the HOWTO section. Likewise for Hibernate or OJB
or Torque. (I also thing an IDEA HOWTO would be a great addition for
the IDE section.)
> oto further... some distro of Struts should include iBatis DAO (not the
> SQL Map, and include JSTL, etc. and not include logic, bean tag anymore,
> maybe even Java WebParts, Struts Menu, displaytag included, etc.)
Under the Apache License, any one can create a distribution of Apache
Struts, they just can't call it "Apache Struts" per se.
A "full stack" distribution that included Struts is a good idea, but
it seems outside the scope of Apache Struts right now. With so much
going on, even with all the new blood, the committers are stretched
quite thin these days. If we roll a full-stack "Struts on Rails"
distribution, there will be an expectation of a high level of support,
and I don't know if we would be able to provide that right now.
If there's one other thing we could do, it might be to revitalize the
announcements page , and jumpstart the long-neglected announcement
list, so as to help promote new and existing extensions. It wouldn't
surprise me to see third-party Shale extensions popping up before
long.
Perhaps for ApacheCon, we should announce announcements@struts.apache.org :)
A good place to start might be by fixing the link on the mailing list
page, which I just noticed is wrong.
-Ted.
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