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Posted to dev@tomcat.apache.org by Pier Fumagalli <pi...@betaversion.org> on 2002/05/25 16:51:54 UTC
Vicious Abuse?
"Jeff Turner" <je...@socialchange.net.au> wrote:
> .. and thankful that people like Costin persevere in spite of rather
> vicious abuse.
Vicious abuse? All I am proposing is to add greater flexibility to the
freedom of those who are involved with the Jakarta project.
All I'm proposing is to accept the idea that we might have coders who don't
care about new projects or PMCs, they just want their code done, or that we
might have important resources out there who might want to get involved with
this project but cannot be tied to one particular code base?
Is it a vicious abuse to ask Sally to become an ASF member ALTHOUGH she
doesn¹t know how to code in C or Java, or Perl, and doesn't even know what
CVS is all about?
Is it a vicious abuse to ask to free this community from a concept like
"meritocracy as the number of lines of code you put into CVS"?
I don't think so, because if this community believes that "freedom" is a
vicious abuse, this community is racist, racist towards those who can't or
don't want to have to deal with CVS, no more and no less as one could be
racist on the color of your skin, or the ideas that populate your mind...
Pier (really, really worried)
--
[Perl] combines all the worst aspects of C and Lisp: a billion of different
sublanguages in one monolithic executable. It combines the power of C with
the readability of PostScript. [Jamie Zawinski - DNA Lounge - San Francisco]
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Re: subverting CVS WAS: Re: Divorcing karma from CVS access?
(Re:Vicious Abuse?)
Posted by "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org>.
>
> As for now, I'd be happy when I see Scarab b7+ running <nudge nudge>
>
Status on that is this:
1. Monday is a holiday
2. Sometime next week I hope/plan to drive my server back to its
"co-located home"
3. Test detonate my Scarab installing on it (appreciate here that I'm
taking more care not to screw up Apache servers than I do my own ;-) )
> --
> Nicola Ken Barozzi nicolaken@apache.org
> - verba volant, scripta manent -
> (discussions get forgotten, just code remains)
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
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structure
a guy/gal could have! - Make Ant simple on complex Projects!
The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to
vote.
-Ambassador Kosh
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Re: subverting CVS WAS: Re: Divorcing karma from CVS access? (Re:Vicious Abuse?)
Posted by Nicola Ken Barozzi <ni...@apache.org>.
From: "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org>
> So is there an interest in one day migrating to subversion? I don't
> think its *ready* yet but I've always wanted to try it. I never have,
> because I thought "well I'd like to try a lot of things but as long as I
> won't be able to use it most places whats the point". A tentative yes
> here might give me motivation.
I think that everyone here would like a better thing than CVS, and
Subversion is maybe the biggest hope.
What I would like to know, since there are coders here that use it, what is
the "real" status and what can we expect the reasonable adoption in Apache
to be.
As for now, I'd be happy when I see Scarab b7+ running <nudge nudge>
--
Nicola Ken Barozzi nicolaken@apache.org
- verba volant, scripta manent -
(discussions get forgotten, just code remains)
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subverting CVS WAS: Re: Divorcing karma from CVS access? (Re:
Vicious Abuse?)
Posted by "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org>.
So is there an interest in one day migrating to subversion? I don't
think its *ready* yet but I've always wanted to try it. I never have,
because I thought "well I'd like to try a lot of things but as long as I
won't be able to use it most places whats the point". A tentative yes
here might give me motivation.
-Andy
> - (random thoughts..) The whole notion of defining a person's worth in
> terms of their CVS access seems backwards and wrong. The
> 'committer/non-committer' dividing line is an artifact of CVS's
> coarse-grained access control, and will disappear once we migrate to
> Subversion or whatever. It would be nice if there was a 'rating'
> system that didn't hijack the versioning system's terminology. Karma
> rated on a different scale to CVS access. Then there could be a
> one-way mapping, X karma -> Y CVS access. The karma system could be
> something like advogato's (http://www.advogato.org/trust-metric.html
> http://www.advogato.org/person/).
>
>
> --Jeff
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
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>
--
http://www.superlinksoftware.com - software solutions for business
http://jakarta.apache.org/poi - Excel/Word/OLE 2 Compound Document in
Java
http://krysalis.sourceforge.net/centipede - the best build/project
structure
a guy/gal could have! - Make Ant simple on complex Projects!
The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to
vote.
-Ambassador Kosh
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Divorcing karma from CVS access? (Re: Vicious Abuse?)
Posted by Jeff Turner <je...@socialchange.net.au>.
On Sat, May 25, 2002 at 03:51:54PM +0100, Pier Fumagalli wrote:
> "Jeff Turner" <je...@socialchange.net.au> wrote:
>
> > .. and thankful that people like Costin persevere in spite of rather
> > vicious abuse.
>
> Vicious abuse? All I am proposing is to add greater flexibility to the
> freedom of those who are involved with the Jakarta project.
I was objecting to unprovoked Costin-bashing outside tomcat-dev, not
your proposal. People outside tomcat-dev may not understand why a PMC
member deserved your comments ;P
As for your proposal, a few thoughts:
- AFAIK there is no requirement that a committer be a coder. See the
definition on http://jakarta.apache.org/site/roles.html. An example:
Diana Shannon voted as a Cocoon committer, for volunteering to
coordinate docs:
http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?t=101896493700004&r=1&w=2
- Your proposal redefined 'contributor' to include CVS access, and I
think that will cause confusion with the existing, looser meaning.
- (random thoughts..) The whole notion of defining a person's worth in
terms of their CVS access seems backwards and wrong. The
'committer/non-committer' dividing line is an artifact of CVS's
coarse-grained access control, and will disappear once we migrate to
Subversion or whatever. It would be nice if there was a 'rating'
system that didn't hijack the versioning system's terminology. Karma
rated on a different scale to CVS access. Then there could be a
one-way mapping, X karma -> Y CVS access. The karma system could be
something like advogato's (http://www.advogato.org/trust-metric.html
http://www.advogato.org/person/).
--Jeff
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Divorcing karma from CVS access? (Re: Vicious Abuse?)
Posted by Jeff Turner <je...@socialchange.net.au>.
On Sat, May 25, 2002 at 03:51:54PM +0100, Pier Fumagalli wrote:
> "Jeff Turner" <je...@socialchange.net.au> wrote:
>
> > .. and thankful that people like Costin persevere in spite of rather
> > vicious abuse.
>
> Vicious abuse? All I am proposing is to add greater flexibility to the
> freedom of those who are involved with the Jakarta project.
I was objecting to unprovoked Costin-bashing outside tomcat-dev, not
your proposal. People outside tomcat-dev may not understand why a PMC
member deserved your comments ;P
As for your proposal, a few thoughts:
- AFAIK there is no requirement that a committer be a coder. See the
definition on http://jakarta.apache.org/site/roles.html. An example:
Diana Shannon voted as a Cocoon committer, for volunteering to
coordinate docs:
http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?t=101896493700004&r=1&w=2
- Your proposal redefined 'contributor' to include CVS access, and I
think that will cause confusion with the existing, looser meaning.
- (random thoughts..) The whole notion of defining a person's worth in
terms of their CVS access seems backwards and wrong. The
'committer/non-committer' dividing line is an artifact of CVS's
coarse-grained access control, and will disappear once we migrate to
Subversion or whatever. It would be nice if there was a 'rating'
system that didn't hijack the versioning system's terminology. Karma
rated on a different scale to CVS access. Then there could be a
one-way mapping, X karma -> Y CVS access. The karma system could be
something like advogato's (http://www.advogato.org/trust-metric.html
http://www.advogato.org/person/).
--Jeff
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Re: Vicious Abuse?
Posted by Martin van den Bemt <ml...@mvdb.net>.
Costin,
> Having hierarchies of 'people can only code' and 'people who lead' is
> not freedom. Creating a group that is 'more equal than the others' and
> taking away the right to vote to those we believe don't care is not
> freedom.
Maybe I missed something, but who as actually talking about people who
lead? Those "non committing members" will probably lead in there area
(sysadmins, legal stuff, or whatever you can think of) and they don't
care about projects at all, unless it involves their area.
I must add that I don't exactly know how this is handled right now, but
I guess if you want to put the jsdk on the tomcat site, you will get
someone -1'ing because of legal issues. I don't care about those issues,
so let people take care of what they are good at (in your case tomcat..)
Wouldn't it be great to just say "oh, let's cc xxxx, and let him/her
figure out it this is legal") and get back to focus on what really is
important.
That person you are cc'ing could be a pro-deo lawyer and really wants to
be involved in the jakarta commity, but cannot be a member, because he
is not part of a project? You will get laught hard at if you will start
a vote to let this person be a committer, but it is better to start a
vote that he becomes a member, because he is contributing to legal
issues on jakarta.
People like to belong to something, you cannot say to people : we'll
drain your brain, but you are not an essential part of this comminity!
even though he is. The logical consequence will be he will disconnect
the brain drain and will not help us out anymore.
Is this such a bad idea ?
This lawyer is an example off course ;))
Mvgr,
Martin
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Re: Vicious Abuse?
Posted by co...@covalent.net.
On Sat, 25 May 2002, Pier Fumagalli wrote:
> "Jeff Turner" <je...@socialchange.net.au> wrote:
>
> > .. and thankful that people like Costin persevere in spite of rather
> > vicious abuse.
>
> Vicious abuse? All I am proposing is to add greater flexibility to the
> freedom of those who are involved with the Jakarta project.
>
> All I'm proposing is to accept the idea that we might have coders who don't
> care about new projects or PMCs, they just want their code done, or that we
> might have important resources out there who might want to get involved with
> this project but cannot be tied to one particular code base?
>
> Is it a vicious abuse to ask Sally to become an ASF member ALTHOUGH she
> doesn¹t know how to code in C or Java, or Perl, and doesn't even know what
> CVS is all about?
There is no requirement for someone to know C or Java for becomming a
commiter. All you need is make contributions to the project. I've seen
no language requirement ( Java or English )
We have plenty of people who don't care about politics - they just don't
vote or are smart enough to not participate in the flame-wars.
> Is it a vicious abuse to ask to free this community from a concept like
> "meritocracy as the number of lines of code you put into CVS"?
>
> I don't think so, because if this community believes that "freedom" is a
> vicious abuse, this community is racist, racist towards those who can't or
> don't want to have to deal with CVS, no more and no less as one could be
> racist on the color of your skin, or the ideas that populate your mind...
Having hierarchies of 'people can only code' and 'people who lead' is
not freedom. Creating a group that is 'more equal than the others' and
taking away the right to vote to those we believe don't care is not
freedom.
Costin
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RE: Vicious Abuse?
Posted by "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org>.
On Sat, 2002-05-25 at 18:22, Danny Angus wrote:
> I think what I'm trying to say is that if we want to reconcile the
> conflicting aims of having a small manageable group who can communicate, and
> *reach**decisions* easily with encouraging large number of participants it
> needs to be in some way fractal.
>
This is why I think we need an infrastructure subproject for jakarta.
Those who really care about what goes on site2 can join the
infrastructure project. Those that actually contribute become
committers.
> What is there to be gained by giving every commiter access to jakarta-site2?
> or deadalus? filtering memberships & permissions and whatever else will
> strengthen, or at least not dilute, the "brand".
>
whooa..ho ho.. Do you know what a pain it was to get the POI site up
with no direct access in the hands of any of the project committers?
(The well meaning goal was to restrict access to the server).. We had
to store all the generated HTML/javadoc/etc in CVS which was very
painful for our Australian committers/contributers. While I don't think
everyone should have access, don't solve the traffic problem by shutting
down the road system.
> Yet to encourage participation we need to have levels of membership which
> are comparativly easy to attain and bring with them some kudos.
>
By demoting the committers? Why that will bring them lots of warm
fuzzies.
-Andy
> d.
>
>
>
> > Naw, I like the PMC being elected by the greater body of committers. I
> > think that keeps em honest. There already is the ASF that functions
> > somewhat more as you say. Jakarta is somewhat of a flat organization,
> > and I think thats a good thing. Too many steps in the hierarchy and
> > sooner or later you have a bureaucratic unmovable body.
> >
> > -Andy
>
>
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> To unsubscribe, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
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--
http://www.superlinksoftware.com - software solutions for business
http://jakarta.apache.org/poi - Excel/Word/OLE 2 Compound Document in
Java
http://krysalis.sourceforge.net/centipede - the best build/project
structure
a guy/gal could have! - Make Ant simple on complex Projects!
The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to
vote.
-Ambassador Kosh
--
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RE: Vicious Abuse?
Posted by Danny Angus <da...@apache.org>.
I think what I'm trying to say is that if we want to reconcile the
conflicting aims of having a small manageable group who can communicate, and
*reach**decisions* easily with encouraging large number of participants it
needs to be in some way fractal.
What is there to be gained by giving every commiter access to jakarta-site2?
or deadalus? filtering memberships & permissions and whatever else will
strengthen, or at least not dilute, the "brand".
Yet to encourage participation we need to have levels of membership which
are comparativly easy to attain and bring with them some kudos.
d.
> Naw, I like the PMC being elected by the greater body of committers. I
> think that keeps em honest. There already is the ASF that functions
> somewhat more as you say. Jakarta is somewhat of a flat organization,
> and I think thats a good thing. Too many steps in the hierarchy and
> sooner or later you have a bureaucratic unmovable body.
>
> -Andy
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RE: Vicious Abuse?
Posted by "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org>.
On Sat, 2002-05-25 at 17:40, Danny Angus wrote:
>
> > Is it a vicious abuse to ask to free this community from a concept like
> > "meritocracy as the number of lines of code you put into CVS"?
>
> I'm lagging behind here.. but, if you'll humor me,
> IMHO its naieve, and potentially harmful for the project to have one type of
> membership, commiters, with many seperate entrance "exams" of different
> standards.
> It also provides too much privilege in one go.
>
> I would suggest that there be two entry levels, commiter to a sub-project
> and non-coding-member (admin) for a sub-project, neither of which carry as
> many benfits/responsibilities as the proposed next level, commiter/admin of
> whole-jakarta (like current commiters), which in turn can become "member" of
> jakarta, with "members" electing the pmc. "members" would be the elder
> statesmen, and others elevated thanks to their contribution to the
> community, not just the code, eg jon,sam, et al.
>
Naw, I like the PMC being elected by the greater body of committers. I
think that keeps em honest. There already is the ASF that functions
somewhat more as you say. Jakarta is somewhat of a flat organization,
and I think thats a good thing. Too many steps in the hierarchy and
sooner or later you have a bureaucratic unmovable body.
-Andy
> d.
>
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
> For additional commands, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
>
--
http://www.superlinksoftware.com - software solutions for business
http://jakarta.apache.org/poi - Excel/Word/OLE 2 Compound Document in
Java
http://krysalis.sourceforge.net/centipede - the best build/project
structure
a guy/gal could have! - Make Ant simple on complex Projects!
The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to
vote.
-Ambassador Kosh
--
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RE: Vicious Abuse?
Posted by Danny Angus <da...@apache.org>.
> Is it a vicious abuse to ask to free this community from a concept like
> "meritocracy as the number of lines of code you put into CVS"?
I'm lagging behind here.. but, if you'll humor me,
IMHO its naieve, and potentially harmful for the project to have one type of
membership, commiters, with many seperate entrance "exams" of different
standards.
It also provides too much privilege in one go.
I would suggest that there be two entry levels, commiter to a sub-project
and non-coding-member (admin) for a sub-project, neither of which carry as
many benfits/responsibilities as the proposed next level, commiter/admin of
whole-jakarta (like current commiters), which in turn can become "member" of
jakarta, with "members" electing the pmc. "members" would be the elder
statesmen, and others elevated thanks to their contribution to the
community, not just the code, eg jon,sam, et al.
d.
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RE: Vicious Abuse? (an outsiders perspective)
Posted by Martin van den Bemt <ml...@mvdb.net>.
Pier +1'ed it.
And whoever got -1'ed (sorry forgot your name), was pretty cool about
it.. (+100 on that response btw..)
Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't like it either to get -1'ed, although
there were good reasons from Pier's perspective. When he got enough
convincing arguments, he did a +1..
Too bad some other discussions got mixed up with this one specifically,
which clouded the request from Pier for more information about him...
Mvgr,
Martin
On Sat, 2002-05-25 at 17:22, James Mitchell wrote:
> I've been following along with this/these rather ridiculous thread's).
>
> No, I am not a committer, so you can hit the delete key now if you judge
> people by their status.
>
> IMHO, giving someone a -1 is one of the rudest things I have seen on this
> list in quite a while.
> What is most surprising to me, is how you stuck to your ignorant opinion,
> even after so many others were willing to vote them in.
>
> I have no plans in the future to become a Tomcat committer, however, I do
> have my sights set on the Struts project. I sincerely hope that there are
> no committers there who share your view on 'how to keep yourself important
> by keeping others out'. I have seen this characteristic before in a few
> people, of whom shall remain nameless, but they know who they are.
>
> James Mitchell
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Pier Fumagalli [mailto:pier@betaversion.org]
> > Sent: Saturday, May 25, 2002 10:52 AM
> > To: Jakarta General List
> > Cc: Tomcat Developers List
> > Subject: Vicious Abuse?
> >
> >
> > "Jeff Turner" <je...@socialchange.net.au> wrote:
> >
> > > .. and thankful that people like Costin persevere in spite of rather
> > > vicious abuse.
> >
> > Vicious abuse? All I am proposing is to add greater flexibility to the
> > freedom of those who are involved with the Jakarta project.
> >
> > All I'm proposing is to accept the idea that we might have coders
> > who don't
> > care about new projects or PMCs, they just want their code done,
> > or that we
> > might have important resources out there who might want to get
> > involved with
> > this project but cannot be tied to one particular code base?
> >
> > Is it a vicious abuse to ask Sally to become an ASF member ALTHOUGH she
> > doesn¹t know how to code in C or Java, or Perl, and doesn't even know what
> > CVS is all about?
> >
> > Is it a vicious abuse to ask to free this community from a concept like
> > "meritocracy as the number of lines of code you put into CVS"?
> >
> > I don't think so, because if this community believes that "freedom" is a
> > vicious abuse, this community is racist, racist towards those who can't or
> > don't want to have to deal with CVS, no more and no less as one could be
> > racist on the color of your skin, or the ideas that populate your mind...
> >
> > Pier (really, really worried)
> >
> > --
> > [Perl] combines all the worst aspects of C and Lisp: a billion
> > of different
> > sublanguages in one monolithic executable. It combines the
> > power of C with
> > the readability of PostScript. [Jamie Zawinski - DNA Lounge - San
> > Francisco]
> >
> >
> > --
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
> For additional commands, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
>
>
>
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>
>
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Re: Vicious Abuse? (an outsiders perspective)
Posted by Pier Fumagalli <pi...@betaversion.org>.
"Anthony W. Marino" <an...@AWMObjects.com> wrote:
>> I've been following along with this/these rather ridiculous thread's).
>>
>> No, I am not a committer, so you can hit the delete key now if you judge
>> people by their status.
>>
>> IMHO, giving someone a -1 is one of the rudest things I have seen on this
>> list in quite a while.
>> What is most surprising to me, is how you stuck to your ignorant opinion,
>> even after so many others were willing to vote them in.
>
> Isn't that part of the democracy of this process...call it as you see it???
> As long as you can qualify/backup your statements then I see nothing wrong
> with it. In fact, I appreciate/welcome it as long as it is handled
> professionally and with an open mind such as Pier has demonstrated.
> Apparently Dan, too, has expressed his acceptance of Pier's thoughts!
Thank you, and I would like to close the "vote" issue here, I believe that
my vote had all the rights to be expressed. I don't use SSI, I don't know
what's wrong with it, I don't know absolutely anything about the guy who is
being proposed to fix those problems. Once he gave me his idea on how things
were, and what he wanted to do with, I suddenly changed my vote, before the
end of the ballot (3 days after proposal), and welcomed him open arms...
I don't think that saying "hold on one second, stop this thing for a while
because I don't really get it" and then "ah, ok, cool, I'm fine with it"
means being rude... Sorry if someone perceived it somehow differently.
Pier
--
[Perl] combines all the worst aspects of C and Lisp: a billion of different
sublanguages in one monolithic executable. It combines the power of C with
the readability of PostScript. [Jamie Zawinski - DNA Lounge - San Francisco]
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Re: Vicious Abuse? (an outsiders perspective)
Posted by "Anthony W. Marino" <an...@AWMObjects.com>.
> I've been following along with this/these rather ridiculous thread's).
>
> No, I am not a committer, so you can hit the delete key now if you judge
> people by their status.
>
> IMHO, giving someone a -1 is one of the rudest things I have seen on this
> list in quite a while.
> What is most surprising to me, is how you stuck to your ignorant opinion,
> even after so many others were willing to vote them in.
Isn't that part of the democracy of this process...call it as you see it???
As long as you can qualify/backup your statements then I see nothing wrong
with it. In fact, I appreciate/welcome it as long as it is handled
professionally and with an open mind such as Pier has demonstrated.
Apparently Dan, too, has expressed his acceptance of Pier's thoughts!
Anthony
>
> I have no plans in the future to become a Tomcat committer, however, I do
> have my sights set on the Struts project. I sincerely hope that there are
> no committers there who share your view on 'how to keep yourself important
> by keeping others out'. I have seen this characteristic before in a few
> people, of whom shall remain nameless, but they know who they are.
>
> James Mitchell
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Pier Fumagalli [mailto:pier@betaversion.org]
> > Sent: Saturday, May 25, 2002 10:52 AM
> > To: Jakarta General List
> > Cc: Tomcat Developers List
> > Subject: Vicious Abuse?
> >
> > "Jeff Turner" <je...@socialchange.net.au> wrote:
> > > .. and thankful that people like Costin persevere in spite of rather
> > > vicious abuse.
> >
> > Vicious abuse? All I am proposing is to add greater flexibility to the
> > freedom of those who are involved with the Jakarta project.
> >
> > All I'm proposing is to accept the idea that we might have coders
> > who don't
> > care about new projects or PMCs, they just want their code done,
> > or that we
> > might have important resources out there who might want to get
> > involved with
> > this project but cannot be tied to one particular code base?
> >
> > Is it a vicious abuse to ask Sally to become an ASF member ALTHOUGH she
> > doesn¹t know how to code in C or Java, or Perl, and doesn't even know
> > what CVS is all about?
> >
> > Is it a vicious abuse to ask to free this community from a concept like
> > "meritocracy as the number of lines of code you put into CVS"?
> >
> > I don't think so, because if this community believes that "freedom" is a
> > vicious abuse, this community is racist, racist towards those who can't
> > or don't want to have to deal with CVS, no more and no less as one could
> > be racist on the color of your skin, or the ideas that populate your
> > mind...
> >
> > Pier (really, really worried)
> >
> > --
> > [Perl] combines all the worst aspects of C and Lisp: a billion
> > of different
> > sublanguages in one monolithic executable. It combines the
> > power of C with
> > the readability of PostScript. [Jamie Zawinski - DNA Lounge - San
> > Francisco]
> >
> >
> > --
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail:
>
> <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
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Re: Vicious Abuse? (an outsiders perspective)
Posted by Pier Fumagalli <pi...@betaversion.org>.
"James Mitchell" <jm...@telocity.com> wrote:
> I've been following along with this/these rather ridiculous thread's).
Good...
> No, I am not a committer, so you can hit the delete key now if you judge
> people by their status.
Who said I am? I _am_ the one who is trying to modify the current status quo
so that people with different skills and interests can be part of the
Jakarta community without being tied to a CVS account.
> IMHO, giving someone a -1 is one of the rudest things I have seen on this
> list in quite a while.
Casus belli. I believe that me and Dan cleared this whole thing up and (go
and read), I've even "welcomed" him to the set of committers with CVS
account in the Tomcat project. He has my +1.
> What is most surprising to me, is how you stuck to your ignorant opinion,
> even after so many others were willing to vote them in.
My "ignorant" opinion is based on years of working within this project, is
based on making things for you all work, day by day. I don't usually point
this out, but my contributions to Jakarta are not the few lines of code I
put in Warp, but somewhere else (and those who know, know it). I might not
even be a committer if it wasn't for 2/3 patches a month, but do believe me
when I say that I spend at least 4 hours a day to do stuff for this amazing
bunch of folks.
> I have no plans in the future to become a Tomcat committer, however, I do
> have my sights set on the Struts project. I sincerely hope that there are
> no committers there who share your view on 'how to keep yourself important
> by keeping others out'. I have seen this characteristic before in a few
> people, of whom shall remain nameless, but they know who they are.
"Keep meself important by keeping others out" ??? I welcomed Dan to the
community, and _actually_ what I'm trying to do, is to offer a greater deal
of freedom to this community as a whole, for people who CODE, and for people
who DON'T...
Pier
--
[Perl] combines all the worst aspects of C and Lisp: a billion of different
sublanguages in one monolithic executable. It combines the power of C with
the readability of PostScript. [Jamie Zawinski - DNA Lounge - San Francisco]
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RE: Vicious Abuse? (an outsiders perspective)
Posted by James Mitchell <jm...@telocity.com>.
I've been following along with this/these rather ridiculous thread's).
No, I am not a committer, so you can hit the delete key now if you judge
people by their status.
IMHO, giving someone a -1 is one of the rudest things I have seen on this
list in quite a while.
What is most surprising to me, is how you stuck to your ignorant opinion,
even after so many others were willing to vote them in.
I have no plans in the future to become a Tomcat committer, however, I do
have my sights set on the Struts project. I sincerely hope that there are
no committers there who share your view on 'how to keep yourself important
by keeping others out'. I have seen this characteristic before in a few
people, of whom shall remain nameless, but they know who they are.
James Mitchell
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Pier Fumagalli [mailto:pier@betaversion.org]
> Sent: Saturday, May 25, 2002 10:52 AM
> To: Jakarta General List
> Cc: Tomcat Developers List
> Subject: Vicious Abuse?
>
>
> "Jeff Turner" <je...@socialchange.net.au> wrote:
>
> > .. and thankful that people like Costin persevere in spite of rather
> > vicious abuse.
>
> Vicious abuse? All I am proposing is to add greater flexibility to the
> freedom of those who are involved with the Jakarta project.
>
> All I'm proposing is to accept the idea that we might have coders
> who don't
> care about new projects or PMCs, they just want their code done,
> or that we
> might have important resources out there who might want to get
> involved with
> this project but cannot be tied to one particular code base?
>
> Is it a vicious abuse to ask Sally to become an ASF member ALTHOUGH she
> doesn¹t know how to code in C or Java, or Perl, and doesn't even know what
> CVS is all about?
>
> Is it a vicious abuse to ask to free this community from a concept like
> "meritocracy as the number of lines of code you put into CVS"?
>
> I don't think so, because if this community believes that "freedom" is a
> vicious abuse, this community is racist, racist towards those who can't or
> don't want to have to deal with CVS, no more and no less as one could be
> racist on the color of your skin, or the ideas that populate your mind...
>
> Pier (really, really worried)
>
> --
> [Perl] combines all the worst aspects of C and Lisp: a billion
> of different
> sublanguages in one monolithic executable. It combines the
> power of C with
> the readability of PostScript. [Jamie Zawinski - DNA Lounge - San
> Francisco]
>
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:
<ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
For additional commands, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
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Re: Vicious Abuse?
Posted by co...@covalent.net.
On Sat, 25 May 2002, Pier Fumagalli wrote:
> "Jeff Turner" <je...@socialchange.net.au> wrote:
>
> > .. and thankful that people like Costin persevere in spite of rather
> > vicious abuse.
>
> Vicious abuse? All I am proposing is to add greater flexibility to the
> freedom of those who are involved with the Jakarta project.
>
> All I'm proposing is to accept the idea that we might have coders who don't
> care about new projects or PMCs, they just want their code done, or that we
> might have important resources out there who might want to get involved with
> this project but cannot be tied to one particular code base?
>
> Is it a vicious abuse to ask Sally to become an ASF member ALTHOUGH she
> doesn¹t know how to code in C or Java, or Perl, and doesn't even know what
> CVS is all about?
There is no requirement for someone to know C or Java for becomming a
commiter. All you need is make contributions to the project. I've seen
no language requirement ( Java or English )
We have plenty of people who don't care about politics - they just don't
vote or are smart enough to not participate in the flame-wars.
> Is it a vicious abuse to ask to free this community from a concept like
> "meritocracy as the number of lines of code you put into CVS"?
>
> I don't think so, because if this community believes that "freedom" is a
> vicious abuse, this community is racist, racist towards those who can't or
> don't want to have to deal with CVS, no more and no less as one could be
> racist on the color of your skin, or the ideas that populate your mind...
Having hierarchies of 'people can only code' and 'people who lead' is
not freedom. Creating a group that is 'more equal than the others' and
taking away the right to vote to those we believe don't care is not
freedom.
Costin
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