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Posted to general@jakarta.apache.org by "Shapira, Yoav" <Yo...@mpi.com> on 2004/05/26 15:33:13 UTC
[Watchdog] Dead?
Hi,
I just tried to subscribe to the watchdog mailing list in order to
notify the developers of a bug I submitted against Watchdog. But I got
a "no such mailbox: watchdog-dev-subscribe@jakarta.apache.org" error
response from the mail server. What's the status of Watchdog?
Yoav Shapira
Millennium Research Informatics
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Re: [Watchdog] Dead?
Posted by Geir Magnusson Jr <ge...@4quarters.com>.
On May 26, 2004, at 9:33 AM, Shapira, Yoav wrote:
>
> Hi,
> I just tried to subscribe to the watchdog mailing list in order to
> notify the developers of a bug I submitted against Watchdog. But I got
> a "no such mailbox: watchdog-dev-subscribe@jakarta.apache.org" error
> response from the mail server. What's the status of Watchdog?
>
I just added Yoav and Danny to the committer list for watchdog. You
guys decide on what you want to do with the mail list. I think just
getting the -dev and -user going again for watchdog would be a clean,
unconfusing way to do it, but it's for you decide.
I don't think that working, used-by-users code is 'dead'. There may
not be an active community of developers, but if the code is done, it's
done.
geir
--
Geir Magnusson Jr 203-247-1713(m)
geir@4quarters.com
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RE: [Watchdog] Dead?
Posted by Tim O'Brien <to...@discursive.com>.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Noel J. Bergman [mailto:noel@devtech.com]
> Sent: Friday, June 04, 2004 11:13 AM
> To: Jakarta General List
> Subject: RE: [Watchdog] Dead?
>
> Henri Yandell wrote:
> > Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> > > Secondly, I'm not one who favors "closing" an open source project.
> Ever.
>
> > Only place I favour closing projects is when they are in
> the incubator
> > and 'fail', or in commons-sandbox.
>
> Depends upon what happens in the Incubator. If it does
> actually fail, then I would probably concur that in most
> cases we should remove the code from public view. The
> project would be free to resurface elsewhere.
>
> But even if a sandbox project is just an experiment, as long
> as it was properly developed within the ASF (as opposed to
> something that improperly bypassed the Incubator), I'd
> probably leave it fallow, and mark it as dormant.
>
Agreed, I've been party to more than one revival in the Commons Sandbox, and
I think that it is very valuable to give projects ample time to attract
others with similar interests. I'm not agitating for the death of Watchdog,
just noting inactivity,
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RE: [Watchdog] Dead?
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
Henri Yandell wrote:
> Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> > Secondly, I'm not one who favors "closing" an open source project.
Ever.
> Only place I favour closing projects is when they are in the incubator and
> 'fail', or in commons-sandbox.
Depends upon what happens in the Incubator. If it does actually fail, then
I would probably concur that in most cases we should remove the code from
public view. The project would be free to resurface elsewhere.
But even if a sandbox project is just an experiment, as long as it was
properly developed within the ASF (as opposed to something that improperly
bypassed the Incubator), I'd probably leave it fallow, and mark it as
dormant.
--- Noel
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RE: [Watchdog] Dead?
Posted by Henri Yandell <ba...@generationjava.com>.
On Fri, 4 Jun 2004, Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> > If watchdog is dead, we should move it to the "Graveyard".
>
> > Noel, you are the incubator guy, any ideas about starting this process
> > - what is involved, any previous threads on the subject.
>
> First of all, I'm curious to know what you think incubation has to do with
> dormant projects.
>
> Secondly, I'm not one who favors "closing" an open source project. Ever. I
Only place I favour closing projects is when they are in the incubator and
'fail', or in commons-sandbox.
> able to organize around it. I would certainly indicate that a project is
> currently dormant, if only to let potential users know that there isn't the
> kind of active community that they should expect from an ASF project.
+1. Some mark of activity that a user should expect from a project would
be good on the site.
Hen
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RE: [Watchdog] Dead?
Posted by Tim O'Brien <to...@discursive.com>.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Tom Copeland [mailto:tom@infoether.com]
> Sent: Friday, June 04, 2004 2:19 PM
> To: Jakarta General List
> Subject: RE: [Watchdog] Dead?
>
> On Fri, 2004-06-04 at 15:14, Tim O'Brien wrote:
> > It is the "invite people to be active" part that interests me. I'm
> > not saying I want an activity meter the likes of
> Sourceforge, but it
> > is polite to our users to give people a sense of activity.
>
> That's one of the nice things about a GForge-ish project
> site; there are all sorts of stat charts built in:
>
> http://rubyforge.org/project/stats/?group_id=182
>
> Also, GForge tots up CVS commits, bugs, forum posts,
> releases, and so forth and munges it all into an "activity
> percentile". Good times.
>
I'm not advocating this for ASF. There is a downside to communicating too
much information about activity for an open source project. There is room
for meaningful social statistics like Agora, but adding some sort of
"Activity" percentage sends the wrong message. A project isn't good or
healthy because it is popular and has a larger number of CVS commits. Not
disparaging your own use of this tool, of course.
Anyway, this is becoming OT: Watchdog status updated, tuning out..
> Yours,
>
> Tom
>
>
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RE: [Watchdog] Dead?
Posted by Tom Copeland <to...@infoether.com>.
On Fri, 2004-06-04 at 15:14, Tim O'Brien wrote:
> It is the "invite people to be active" part that interests me. I'm not
> saying I want an activity meter the likes of Sourceforge, but it is polite
> to our users to give people a sense of activity.
That's one of the nice things about a GForge-ish project site; there are
all sorts of stat charts built in:
http://rubyforge.org/project/stats/?group_id=182
Also, GForge tots up CVS commits, bugs, forum posts, releases, and so
forth and munges it all into an "activity percentile". Good times.
Yours,
Tom
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RE: [Watchdog] Dead?
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
> We agree that "burying" a project is less than helpful.
> It is the "invite people to be active" part that interests me. I'm not
> saying I want an activity meter the likes of Sourceforge, but it is
> polite to our users to give people a sense of activity.
Well, if we focus on the word COMMUNITY instead of PROJECT, perhaps say that
the COMMUNITY has gone quiet, I believe that they'll get the idea. We want
to see the COMMUNITY revitalized, and I believe that people understand (or
it can be more easily explained) that participation is the necessary
ingredient. A community is made of members. If there are people who want
to be members, we will help support the community.
My view is that for all of the talk of CLAs, karma, and other things, the
ASF exists to SUPPORT COMMUNITIES. We have a philosophy about what makes a
good Open Source Community, and how we want to see code licensed. The core
mission of the ASF is to support Communities that join with us and adopt our
approach. The ASF doesn't develop software -- it develops and enables
Communities, made up of individuals, which then develop software. Our focus
is on people, from which we believe that code follows.
A project doesn't die. Code doesn't keel over and go legs up. A community
may dissolve, but the code is still there, just waiting.
--- Noel
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RE: [Watchdog] Dead?
Posted by Tim O'Brien <to...@discursive.com>.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Noel J. Bergman [mailto:noel@devtech.com]
> Sent: Friday, June 04, 2004 1:55 PM
> To: Jakarta General List
> Subject: RE: [Watchdog] Dead?
>
> Tim O'Brien wrote:
> > Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> > > > If watchdog is dead, we should move it to the "Graveyard".
> > > > Noel, you are the incubator guy, any ideas about starting this
> > > > process
> > >
> > > First of all, I'm curious to know what you think
> incubation has to
> > > do with dormant projects.
> >
> > You've been involved in formulating a process for the
> introduction of
> > projects, I'd imagine you have views on the removal of projects.
>
> Ah. Although I do have views on the subjects, I don't really
> see the issues as any more related than meal preparation is
> related to a colonoscopy.
>
Or, asking an obstetrician about euthanasia.
> > I think that dormancy is a problem which is fixed by
> discussions like
> > the one we are currently having. If no one had stood up
> and taken at
> > least minimal responsibility for updating some sort of
> status, I'm not
> > sure it would have been a good idea to just let Watchdog
> flounder indefinitely.
>
> Why not? We leave the resources in place, with a notice that
> the project is dormant. If it is revitalized, great. If
> not, what harm is there? Yoav's work on Watchdog isn't going
> to make it less dormant. He will apply some changes
> necessary for Tomcat; possibly ask the PMC to vote for a
> release (or Tomcat will work from CVS); make the necessary
> changes to the site to mark the project as stable but
> dormant; and invite people to be active if they want to see
> further changes.
>
We agree that "burying" a project is less than helpful.
It is the "invite people to be active" part that interests me. I'm not
saying I want an activity meter the likes of Sourceforge, but it is polite
to our users to give people a sense of activity.
Tim
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RE: [Watchdog] Dead?
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
Tim O'Brien wrote:
> Noel J. Bergman wrote:
> > > If watchdog is dead, we should move it to the "Graveyard".
> > > Noel, you are the incubator guy, any ideas about starting
> > > this process
> >
> > First of all, I'm curious to know what you think incubation
> > has to do with dormant projects.
>
> You've been involved in formulating a process for the introduction of
> projects, I'd imagine you have views on the removal of projects.
Ah. Although I do have views on the subjects, I don't really see the issues
as any more related than meal preparation is related to a colonoscopy.
> I think that dormancy is a problem which is fixed by discussions like the
> one we are currently having. If no one had stood up and taken at least
> minimal responsibility for updating some sort of status, I'm not sure it
> would have been a good idea to just let Watchdog flounder indefinitely.
Why not? We leave the resources in place, with a notice that the project is
dormant. If it is revitalized, great. If not, what harm is there? Yoav's
work on Watchdog isn't going to make it less dormant. He will apply some
changes necessary for Tomcat; possibly ask the PMC to vote for a release (or
Tomcat will work from CVS); make the necessary changes to the site to mark
the project as stable but dormant; and invite people to be active if they
want to see further changes.
--- Noel
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RE: [Watchdog] Dead?
Posted by Tim O'Brien <to...@discursive.com>.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Noel J. Bergman [mailto:noel@devtech.com]
> Sent: Friday, June 04, 2004 10:41 AM
> To: Jakarta General List
> Subject: RE: [Watchdog] Dead?
>
> > If watchdog is dead, we should move it to the "Graveyard".
>
> > Noel, you are the incubator guy, any ideas about starting
> this process
> > - what is involved, any previous threads on the subject.
>
> First of all, I'm curious to know what you think incubation
> has to do with dormant projects.
>
You've been involved in formulating a process for the introduction of
projects, I'd imagine you have views on the removal of projects. Which you
do (below).
> Secondly, I'm not one who favors "closing" an open source
> project. Ever. I didn't really agree with closing
> java.apache.org. Although I do agree with closing that
> domain, in retrospect, I'd have moved the content to Jakarta.
> In my view, dormant projects should have their scm resources
> left in place, and can have their mailing addresses reflected
> to a communal list, such as projects@jakarta.apache.org (or
> community@, although I a separate address might be better).
>
> It isn't as if a dormant project rots and deteriorates. It
> isn't costing anything unless there is activity. If there
> are users who want to be active, eventually people are going
> to have to step up and become stewards.
> If a dormant project is revived by a new group, great. If
> not, it just sits fallow. "Burying" a project makes it far
> less likely that users will be able to organize around it. I
> would certainly indicate that a project is currently dormant,
> if only to let potential users know that there isn't the kind
> of active community that they should expect from an ASF project.
>
I think that dormancy is a problem which is fixed by discussions like the
one we are currently having. If no one had stood up and taken at least
minimal responsibility for updating some sort of status, I'm not sure it
would have been a good idea to just let Watchdog flounder indefinitely.
This doesn't happen very frequently, but when it does, I think it is
valuable to have the opportunity to gain consensus to formally mark
something as being currently inactive.
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RE: [Watchdog] Dead?
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
> If watchdog is dead, we should move it to the "Graveyard".
> Noel, you are the incubator guy, any ideas about starting this process
> - what is involved, any previous threads on the subject.
First of all, I'm curious to know what you think incubation has to do with
dormant projects.
Secondly, I'm not one who favors "closing" an open source project. Ever. I
didn't really agree with closing java.apache.org. Although I do agree with
closing that domain, in retrospect, I'd have moved the content to Jakarta.
In my view, dormant projects should have their scm resources left in place,
and can have their mailing addresses reflected to a communal list, such as
projects@jakarta.apache.org (or community@, although I a separate address
might be better).
It isn't as if a dormant project rots and deteriorates. It isn't costing
anything unless there is activity. If there are users who want to be
active, eventually people are going to have to step up and become stewards.
If a dormant project is revived by a new group, great. If not, it just sits
fallow. "Burying" a project makes it far less likely that users will be
able to organize around it. I would certainly indicate that a project is
currently dormant, if only to let potential users know that there isn't the
kind of active community that they should expect from an ASF project.
--- Noel
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RE: [Watchdog] Dead?
Posted by Tim O'Brien <to...@discursive.com>.
If watchdog is dead, we should move it to the "Graveyard".
Noel, you are the incubator guy, any ideas about starting this process -
what is involved, any previous threads on the subject.
Tim
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Noel J. Bergman [mailto:noel@devtech.com]
> Sent: Saturday, May 29, 2004 2:12 PM
> To: Jakarta General List
> Subject: RE: [Watchdog] Dead?
>
> Yoav,
>
> > "no such mailbox: watchdog-dev-subscribe@jakarta.apache.org"
>
> I don't know the answer to the project status, but I can
> confirm that there is no such mailing list currently
> existent. I don't know when it disappeared, other than the
> fact that it stopped archiving back in Nov 2002, but entire
> mailing lists structures don't disappear by accident.
>
> --- Noel
>
>
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RE: [Watchdog] Dead?
Posted by "Noel J. Bergman" <no...@devtech.com>.
Yoav,
> "no such mailbox: watchdog-dev-subscribe@jakarta.apache.org"
I don't know the answer to the project status, but I can confirm that there
is no such mailing list currently existent. I don't know when it
disappeared, other than the fact that it stopped archiving back in Nov 2002,
but entire mailing lists structures don't disappear by accident.
--- Noel
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