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Posted to dev@hbase.apache.org by Bernd Fondermann <be...@googlemail.com> on 2011/09/01 15:22:18 UTC
Decisionmaking [was: Re: New HBase Logo]
On Thu, Sep 1, 2011 at 06:30, Stack <st...@duboce.net> wrote:
> Your PMC voted the following as the new HBase logo:
>
> At one time
> the thought was to have the broad hbase community vote on the logo but
> getting your PMC just to agree on a small set of contenders was like
> pulling teeth; painful all around (engineers and design == not such a
> good mix). May you all forgive us for keeping the decision committee
> small.
There are two things here I think got mixed up.
a. who makes decisions
b. where are decisions being made
Decisions about a project are made on public mailing lists. Only very
few things are to be discussed in private (new committers, new PMC
members, personal conflicts, security issues).
Discussing a new logo does not belong on closed lists, IMHO.
The definitive decision about a new logo is made by the PMC - as the
PMC is tasked with stearing the project. So, even when discussing this
on the public dev list, only PMC members have binding votes. What you
call "decision committee" does not change from private@ to @dev, just
the audience.
However, to foster and grow the community, hearing and taking into
account everyone's opinion would have been great, and - in my opinion
- mandatory.
BTW, isn't the 99designs process public anyway? What bad things could
have happend if the discussion would have been started here?
Concerning the sponsorship of the logo contest: This is a different
beast and depending of the nature of the agreement might justify
keeping parts of it private.
For everyone who doubts that this complies with how Apache works, please read
http://apache.org/dev/pmc.html
Thanks,
Bernd
Re: Decisionmaking [was: Re: New HBase Logo]
Posted by Eric Charles <er...@u-mangate.com>.
On 04/09/11 06:41, Steven Noels wrote:
> Besides, I've eagerly replaced the very ugly old logo with the new one for a
> presentation I gave 2 days ago, so the cat is out of the bag already and the
> huge newbie community I presented to (all 12 of them) would be utterly
> confused with another new logo.
>
Though different, I like both, the old and the new one.
> Them being civil servants and with the frail state of government in Belgium
> in mind, I respectfully request to leave us at least this last token of
> stable change. :-)
>
Happy to hear from here that our civil servants show interest in HBase.
> Kisses,
>
Best for you, Steven.
> Steven.
> On Sep 2, 2011 7:35 AM, "Stack"<st...@duboce.net> wrote:
>> On Thu, Sep 1, 2011 at 10:20 PM, Bernd Fondermann
>> <be...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>>>> If folks want to redo this process because it was not done out in the
>>>> open, lets do it.
>>>
>>> No... Maybe in a few years, when 90's-style logos come out of fashion ;-P
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Man.
>>
>> It was called 80s yesterday.
>>
>> I ain't sure which is worse.
>>
>> Go easy,
>> St.Ack
>
--
Eric
http://about.echarles.net
Re: Decisionmaking [was: Re: New HBase Logo]
Posted by Stack <st...@duboce.net>.
Thank you Steven for informing this list on the global political
implications redoing our 80s logo (It explains why I am being pinged
by the editors at Foreign Affairs and Le Monde Diplomatique).
St.Ack
On Sun, Sep 4, 2011 at 6:41 AM, Steven Noels <st...@outerthought.org> wrote:
> Besides, I've eagerly replaced the very ugly old logo with the new one for a
> presentation I gave 2 days ago, so the cat is out of the bag already and the
> huge newbie community I presented to (all 12 of them) would be utterly
> confused with another new logo.
>
> Them being civil servants and with the frail state of government in Belgium
> in mind, I respectfully request to leave us at least this last token of
> stable change. :-)
>
> Kisses,
>
> Steven.
> On Sep 2, 2011 7:35 AM, "Stack" <st...@duboce.net> wrote:
>> On Thu, Sep 1, 2011 at 10:20 PM, Bernd Fondermann
>> <be...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>>>> If folks want to redo this process because it was not done out in the
>>>> open, lets do it.
>>>
>>> No... Maybe in a few years, when 90's-style logos come out of fashion ;-P
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Man.
>>
>> It was called 80s yesterday.
>>
>> I ain't sure which is worse.
>>
>> Go easy,
>> St.Ack
>
Re: Decisionmaking [was: Re: New HBase Logo]
Posted by Steven Noels <st...@outerthought.org>.
Besides, I've eagerly replaced the very ugly old logo with the new one for a
presentation I gave 2 days ago, so the cat is out of the bag already and the
huge newbie community I presented to (all 12 of them) would be utterly
confused with another new logo.
Them being civil servants and with the frail state of government in Belgium
in mind, I respectfully request to leave us at least this last token of
stable change. :-)
Kisses,
Steven.
On Sep 2, 2011 7:35 AM, "Stack" <st...@duboce.net> wrote:
> On Thu, Sep 1, 2011 at 10:20 PM, Bernd Fondermann
> <be...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>>> If folks want to redo this process because it was not done out in the
>>> open, lets do it.
>>
>> No... Maybe in a few years, when 90's-style logos come out of fashion ;-P
>>
>>
>
> Man.
>
> It was called 80s yesterday.
>
> I ain't sure which is worse.
>
> Go easy,
> St.Ack
Re: Decisionmaking [was: Re: New HBase Logo]
Posted by Stack <st...@duboce.net>.
On Thu, Sep 1, 2011 at 10:20 PM, Bernd Fondermann
<be...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>> If folks want to redo this process because it was not done out in the
>> open, lets do it.
>
> No... Maybe in a few years, when 90's-style logos come out of fashion ;-P
>
>
Man.
It was called 80s yesterday.
I ain't sure which is worse.
Go easy,
St.Ack
Re: Decisionmaking [was: Re: New HBase Logo]
Posted by Bernd Fondermann <be...@googlemail.com>.
On Fri, Sep 2, 2011 at 05:46, Stack <st...@duboce.net> wrote:
> Thanks for the below input and the refresher on the apache way Bernd.
> It helps.
>
> First off, in general, this PMC is pretty good at keeping it public.
> Quite a few questions up on private are first met with the response,
> 'why is this on the private mailing list?'. You can see for yourself
> being an Apache Member (I just OK'd your request to join the private
> mailing list too).
>
> More below.
>
> On Thu, Sep 1, 2011 at 6:22 AM, Bernd Fondermann
> <be...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>> On Thu, Sep 1, 2011 at 06:30, Stack <st...@duboce.net> wrote:
>> There are two things here I think got mixed up.
>> a. who makes decisions
>> b. where are decisions being made
>>
>> Decisions about a project are made on public mailing lists. Only very
>> few things are to be discussed in private (new committers, new PMC
>> members, personal conflicts, security issues).
>> Discussing a new logo does not belong on closed lists, IMHO.
>
> Your quote from my mail is my recognizing that the logo arrival is
> dirty and am asking forgiveness for not operating sufficiently out in
> the open.
>
> The logo process was not done on these lists because it started out
> complicated and remained so till the end.
That's the first time I hear that having a new logo could be such a pain.
Congrats to HBase to come to a decision.
> If folks want to redo this process because it was not done out in the
> open, lets do it.
No... Maybe in a few years, when 90's-style logos come out of fashion ;-P
Bernd
Bernd
Re: Decisionmaking [was: Re: New HBase Logo]
Posted by Eric Charles <er...@gmail.com>.
On 02/09/11 08:08, Stack wrote:
>> Btw, will https://issues.apache.org/jira/secure/attachment/12492480/H.gif be
>> the avatar for twitter account...? If such, it would be nice to have HBASE
>> written down the big H as baseline.
>>
>
> Will try it.
>
> Need to get the 'Apache' in there too -- somehow.
>
Yeah, Apache Trademarks recommends 'Apache HBase'.
> Go easy,
Same.
> St.Ack
--
Eric
http://about.echarles.net
Re: Decisionmaking [was: Re: New HBase Logo]
Posted by Stack <st...@duboce.net>.
On Fri, Sep 2, 2011 at 5:21 AM, Eric Charles <er...@gmail.com> wrote:
> So if HBase PMC came to a agreement, I think it's really fine
> and we should trust all the process that occurred.
>
Thanks for vote of confidence Eric.
> I can't find back the article where it is explained why software developers
> are no good at graphic/color design (it was very instructive...), so I think
> using a professional company like you did is a good idea.
>
I think one of us should be able to write that article now.
> Btw, will https://issues.apache.org/jira/secure/attachment/12492480/H.gif be
> the avatar for twitter account...? If such, it would be nice to have HBASE
> written down the big H as baseline.
>
Will try it.
Need to get the 'Apache' in there too -- somehow.
Go easy,
St.Ack
Re: Decisionmaking [was: Re: New HBase Logo]
Posted by Eric Charles <er...@gmail.com>.
Hi,
For upcoming Apache James 3.0, we have a call for a new logo at
http://james.apache.org/#logo
We already have a few proposals, and the call is still ongoing. We will
open the vote to everyone when james 3.0-final will be released, but I
expect some discussions on the choice, and maybe some reactions against
any change. I'm sure we will have many votes because people like that
kind of things. However, we will loose some control on the project
image... It's a bit a trade-off... So if HBase PMC came to a agreement,
I think it's really fine and we should trust all the process that occurred.
I can't find back the article where it is explained why software
developers are no good at graphic/color design (it was very
instructive...), so I think using a professional company like you did is
a good idea.
Btw, will
https://issues.apache.org/jira/secure/attachment/12492480/H.gif be the
avatar for twitter account...? If such, it would be nice to have HBASE
written down the big H as baseline.
Eric
On 01/09/11 21:02, Andrew Purtell wrote:
>> From: Ted Dunning<td...@maprtech.com>
>
>> Oh lordie, let's not. Logo discussions drown out everything else and never
>> result in getting a better logo.
>> At most, how about just having an up or down vote on this one logo. Then
>> everybody can get on with something important.
>
>
> +1
>
>
> Best regards,
>
>
> - Andy
>
> Problems worthy of attack prove their worth by hitting back. - Piet Hein (via Tom White)
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Ted Dunning<td...@maprtech.com>
>> To: dev@hbase.apache.org
>> Cc:
>> Sent: Friday, September 2, 2011 11:54 AM
>> Subject: Re: Decisionmaking [was: Re: New HBase Logo]
>>
>> Oh lordie, let's not. Logo discussions drown out everything else and never
>> result in getting a better logo.
>>
>> At most, how about just having an up or down vote on this one logo. Then
>> everybody can get on with something important.
>>
>> On Thu, Sep 1, 2011 at 10:46 PM, Stack<st...@duboce.net> wrote:
>>
>>> If folks want to redo this process because it was not done out in the
>>> open, lets do it.
>>>
>>
--
Eric
http://about.echarles.net
Re: Decisionmaking [was: Re: New HBase Logo]
Posted by Andrew Purtell <ap...@apache.org>.
> From: Ted Dunning <td...@maprtech.com>
> Oh lordie, let's not. Logo discussions drown out everything else and never
> result in getting a better logo.
> At most, how about just having an up or down vote on this one logo. Then
> everybody can get on with something important.
+1
Best regards,
- Andy
Problems worthy of attack prove their worth by hitting back. - Piet Hein (via Tom White)
----- Original Message -----
> From: Ted Dunning <td...@maprtech.com>
> To: dev@hbase.apache.org
> Cc:
> Sent: Friday, September 2, 2011 11:54 AM
> Subject: Re: Decisionmaking [was: Re: New HBase Logo]
>
> Oh lordie, let's not. Logo discussions drown out everything else and never
> result in getting a better logo.
>
> At most, how about just having an up or down vote on this one logo. Then
> everybody can get on with something important.
>
> On Thu, Sep 1, 2011 at 10:46 PM, Stack <st...@duboce.net> wrote:
>
>> If folks want to redo this process because it was not done out in the
>> open, lets do it.
>>
>
Re: Decisionmaking [was: Re: New HBase Logo]
Posted by Ted Dunning <td...@maprtech.com>.
Oh lordie, let's not. Logo discussions drown out everything else and never
result in getting a better logo.
At most, how about just having an up or down vote on this one logo. Then
everybody can get on with something important.
On Thu, Sep 1, 2011 at 10:46 PM, Stack <st...@duboce.net> wrote:
> If folks want to redo this process because it was not done out in the
> open, lets do it.
>
Re: Decisionmaking [was: Re: New HBase Logo]
Posted by Stack <st...@duboce.net>.
Thanks for the below input and the refresher on the apache way Bernd.
It helps.
First off, in general, this PMC is pretty good at keeping it public.
Quite a few questions up on private are first met with the response,
'why is this on the private mailing list?'. You can see for yourself
being an Apache Member (I just OK'd your request to join the private
mailing list too).
More below.
On Thu, Sep 1, 2011 at 6:22 AM, Bernd Fondermann
<be...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, Sep 1, 2011 at 06:30, Stack <st...@duboce.net> wrote:
> There are two things here I think got mixed up.
> a. who makes decisions
> b. where are decisions being made
>
> Decisions about a project are made on public mailing lists. Only very
> few things are to be discussed in private (new committers, new PMC
> members, personal conflicts, security issues).
> Discussing a new logo does not belong on closed lists, IMHO.
Your quote from my mail is my recognizing that the logo arrival is
dirty and am asking forgiveness for not operating sufficiently out in
the open.
The logo process was not done on these lists because it started out
complicated and remained so till the end. Let me speed-frame you
through it: more than one sponsor (not-aligned); a design firm (who
definitely were not about 'the apache way'); personality clashes; an
awkward dismissal; project owners working too hard so couldn't move
project along; a stunted delivery; a rescue attempt; 99designs but the
setup was done as private competition (a mistake in hindsight -- only
8 persons allowed vote up on the 99designs site); and even at the end
designs contending with those of the 99design proposals.
Some portion of the above could have been done out in the open -- the
tail of it if I'd gone about it differently -- but the overall
narrative would have been tough to bring along since some of the back
and forth belonged up on private. Some of the above did not even make
it out to the PMC private list (design firm interactions, personality
clashes).
I was the one trying to thread the logo through from start to finish
navigating the ups and downs. I am the person responsible for the way
it was delivered. I should have done a better job of it.
If folks want to redo this process because it was not done out in the
open, lets do it.
St.Ack