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Posted to general@incubator.apache.org by Lars Francke <la...@gmail.com> on 2019/01/26 16:34:10 UTC
Meritocracy, initial contributors and (Incubator) Proposals
Hello everyone,
I should have thought of this before, but I didn't. I also did some
research in the mailing list archives, but the search terms are so common,
I didn't come up with anything.
Meritocracy is valued strongly at the ASF. Usually it is granted post-fact
when someone has proven her- or himself. There are lots of problems with
that too, but this is not about that.
This is related to the Training proposal on this list that I started
yesterday.
Proposals (and this especially) are a way to be granted something that you
usually have to work for (prove merit). I'm wondering what has been done in
the past in these situations? Is everyone just added to the list of
contributors/PMC members? There is no real limit to the number of people
that can be part of the initial team as far as I know.
Now, I know some of the people who have contacted me, and I am honored that
they chose to work with me/us on this project. Most people on here I have
never met though and even though I may have read some names on the mailing
list I have no way of assessing whether they are a good fit for a project.
I would usually just trust implicitly (by being on this list, contributor
to other projects etc.) and would say "the more the merrier". In this case
I happen to be the one who's written the proposal but it could have been
anyone really. Should it really be me judging who's a good fit? When do
we/I say "stop, we have enough"?
On the other hand, it would be a pity to have a PMC/initial contributors
list with inactive people and no way to "prune" it. This can be problematic
depending on bylaws (which I've been bitten by already in another project)
and for other reasons.
I'm looking for any advice and past experiences.
Cheers,
Lars
Re: Meritocracy, initial contributors and (Incubator) Proposals
Posted by Ross Gardler <rg...@outlook.com>.
Some very general guidance - https://community.apache.org/newcommitter.html
Get Outlook for Android<https://aka.ms/ghei36>
________________________________
From: Lars Francke <la...@gmail.com>
Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2019 8:34:10 AM
To: general@incubator.apache.org
Subject: Meritocracy, initial contributors and (Incubator) Proposals
Hello everyone,
I should have thought of this before, but I didn't. I also did some
research in the mailing list archives, but the search terms are so common,
I didn't come up with anything.
Meritocracy is valued strongly at the ASF. Usually it is granted post-fact
when someone has proven her- or himself. There are lots of problems with
that too, but this is not about that.
This is related to the Training proposal on this list that I started
yesterday.
Proposals (and this especially) are a way to be granted something that you
usually have to work for (prove merit). I'm wondering what has been done in
the past in these situations? Is everyone just added to the list of
contributors/PMC members? There is no real limit to the number of people
that can be part of the initial team as far as I know.
Now, I know some of the people who have contacted me, and I am honored that
they chose to work with me/us on this project. Most people on here I have
never met though and even though I may have read some names on the mailing
list I have no way of assessing whether they are a good fit for a project.
I would usually just trust implicitly (by being on this list, contributor
to other projects etc.) and would say "the more the merrier". In this case
I happen to be the one who's written the proposal but it could have been
anyone really. Should it really be me judging who's a good fit? When do
we/I say "stop, we have enough"?
On the other hand, it would be a pity to have a PMC/initial contributors
list with inactive people and no way to "prune" it. This can be problematic
depending on bylaws (which I've been bitten by already in another project)
and for other reasons.
I'm looking for any advice and past experiences.
Cheers,
Lars
Re: Meritocracy, initial contributors and (Incubator) Proposals
Posted by Justin Mclean <ju...@classsoftware.com>.
Hi,
> Is everyone just added to the list of contributors/PMC members?
In my experience for a project going via the incubator generally anyone who asks is added (I can only recall one case where this was not the case and it had a very large list of initial committers).
For straight to TLPs that’s not been the case but given they are fairly rare and each different it’s going to depend.
> Now, I know some of the people who have contacted me, and I am honored that
> they chose to work with me/us on this project. Most people on here I have
> never met though and even though I may have read some names on the mailing
> list I have no way of assessing whether they are a good fit for a project.
Perhaps list out what you see as a good fit / what you are looking for in an initial committer and let people judge themselves against that?
> On the other hand, it would be a pity to have a PMC/initial contributors
> list with inactive people and no way to "prune" it.
There is no issue with having inactive PMC members, and no project bylaws/guidlines I’m aware are based on total number.
If you go via the incubator you can also prune the PMC on graduation by asking who wants to stay on.
Thanks,
Justin
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Re: Meritocracy, initial contributors and (Incubator) Proposals
Posted by Lars Francke <la...@gmail.com>.
Thanks for the feedback everyone.
The general outline makes sense to me and it is reassuring that I didn't
miss anything too obvious.
I'll wait to see if a discussion is going to develop on the exact form this
is going to happen in.
Cheers,
Lars
On Mon, Jan 28, 2019 at 11:14 AM Bertrand Delacretaz <
bdelacretaz@codeconsult.ch> wrote:
> Hi Lars,
>
> On Sat, Jan 26, 2019 at 5:35 PM Lars Francke <la...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > ...Proposals (and this especially) are a way to be granted something
> that you
> > usually have to work for (prove merit)....
>
> I agree that being listed as an initial committer on podling proposals
> is a way to get committership without necessarily demonstrating merit
> in the ASF.
>
> And that might lead people to becoming PMC members once their podling
> graduate.
>
> In podlings what I've been mentoring I have often asked for the list
> of PMC members to be reviewed before graduation, to verify that those
> people have earned their role by providing value to the podling. I
> think that's a good filter to avoid the problem the you mention.
>
> For straight-to-TLP projects, like your Training proposal, I think the
> initial PMC should consist only of Apache Members. We haven't had many
> of those so far so I don't think we have a rule for that but that
> seems reasonable, as there's no guidance outside of the PMC for a
> straight-toTLP project.
>
> Once the project is created the PMC can elect committers as quickly as
> it wants, and decide who can also join the PMC.
>
> I think saying "The initial PMC of a straight-to-TLP project consists
> of Apache Members only" gives you a simple rule to accept candidates,
> is reassuring for the Board when it accepts creating the project and
> doesn't block quick project growth in any way. I recommend using that
> rule for your Training project if it aims to go straight to TLP.
>
> Interested people can still be listed somewhere but the best way for
> them to demonstrate interest is to join the project's lists once
> created.
>
> -Bertrand
>
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Re: Meritocracy, initial contributors and (Incubator) Proposals
Posted by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@codeconsult.ch>.
Hi,
On Tue, Jan 29, 2019 at 8:37 AM Justin Mclean <ju...@classsoftware.com> wrote:
> >... For straight-to-TLP projects, like your Training proposal, I think the
> > initial PMC should consist only of Apache Members.
>
> While that seem like a good idea it’s not been the case with all PMC members on previous TLP. ...
Might be - we've only had a few of those so far, I think it's fine to
tweak and improve.
>.. It’s really up to the board to decide if they accept a straight to TLP our not...
Agreed but if the board has to examine individual candidates that's
not practical - a simple rule might be easier, and once again it's
easy for the PMC to change things as soon as it starts.
-Bertrand
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Re: Meritocracy, initial contributors and (Incubator) Proposals
Posted by Justin Mclean <ju...@classsoftware.com>.
Hi,
> For straight-to-TLP projects, like your Training proposal, I think the
> initial PMC should consist only of Apache Members.
While that seem like a good idea it’s not been the case with all PMC members on previous TLP.
It’s really up to the board to decide if they accept a straight to TLP our not.
Thanks,
Justin
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Re: Meritocracy, initial contributors and (Incubator) Proposals
Posted by Bertrand Delacretaz <bd...@codeconsult.ch>.
Hi Lars,
On Sat, Jan 26, 2019 at 5:35 PM Lars Francke <la...@gmail.com> wrote:
> ...Proposals (and this especially) are a way to be granted something that you
> usually have to work for (prove merit)....
I agree that being listed as an initial committer on podling proposals
is a way to get committership without necessarily demonstrating merit
in the ASF.
And that might lead people to becoming PMC members once their podling graduate.
In podlings what I've been mentoring I have often asked for the list
of PMC members to be reviewed before graduation, to verify that those
people have earned their role by providing value to the podling. I
think that's a good filter to avoid the problem the you mention.
For straight-to-TLP projects, like your Training proposal, I think the
initial PMC should consist only of Apache Members. We haven't had many
of those so far so I don't think we have a rule for that but that
seems reasonable, as there's no guidance outside of the PMC for a
straight-toTLP project.
Once the project is created the PMC can elect committers as quickly as
it wants, and decide who can also join the PMC.
I think saying "The initial PMC of a straight-to-TLP project consists
of Apache Members only" gives you a simple rule to accept candidates,
is reassuring for the Board when it accepts creating the project and
doesn't block quick project growth in any way. I recommend using that
rule for your Training project if it aims to go straight to TLP.
Interested people can still be listed somewhere but the best way for
them to demonstrate interest is to join the project's lists once
created.
-Bertrand
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