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Posted to general@incubator.apache.org by ro...@us.ibm.com on 2011/06/02 17:11:25 UTC
OpenOffice.org Apache Incubator Proposal: Are we required to make everyone
happy?
Jochen Wiedmann <jo...@gmail.com> wrote on 06/02/2011 10:25:20
AM:
> >
> > I trust I do not need to explain at length to an Apache PMC the
relative
> > merits of the Apache 2.0 license or the strengths and stability of the
> > ASF. I'll take it as granted that this is well-known to you all. In
any
> > case I am a strict adherent to the practical wisdom of not debating
open
> > source licenses while sober, and I decline to make an exception in
this
> > case.
>
> Rob, it may come as a surprise to you: But what I wrote was in no way
> related to a particular license. I would have written just the same,
> if Apache would use the LGPL/MPL and LibreOffice where ASL licensed.
>
> The point I am trying to make is that it is (IMO) in noone's interest
> to create a second community (!), the exception (at least it seems)
> being IBM. Everyone else would be just as happy or even happier if the
> OO code base, trademarks, etc. where simply donated to TDF.
>
Respectfully, Jochen, that is your opinion, but it disproved with every
non-IBM name added to the wiki.
Despite TDF press releases, there was never unanimous support for
LibreOffice among members of the OpenOffice.org community. We're seeing
some of them stand up now and be counted.
What is best for them? Really? Do you really want to tell them what is
best for them, what will make everyone happy?!
I'm more humble. I have a fairly good idea what is best for my little
corner of the universe. I've found some other parties who agree with me
and we're asking to give this a try, in an open source project. We're just
proposed an incubation project in Apache. You have something like 50 of
them. I'm not seeking in loco parentis rights to determine for others
projects at other foundations what is best for them. I'm just looking for
some place where I and others who are similarly minded, can work on this
code. I'm understand that this is not an unusual request.
In any case, I'm not operating from a vision of scarcity, that we have
this meagre pool of interested developers which we must horde and
conserve. I believe that once we going with a permissive license we'll
attract new corporate interest and more developers. I see the future as
being much bigger than the past, not merely a turf war over the same
static small plot of earth.
Regards,
-Rob
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Re: OpenOffice.org Apache Incubator Proposal: Are we required to
make everyone happy?
Posted by "Richard S. Hall" <he...@ungoverned.org>.
On 6/2/11 11:40, Davide Dozza wrote:
> Robert,
>
> Il 02/06/2011 17:11, robert_weir@us.ibm.com ha scritto:
>> Despite TDF press releases, there was never unanimous support for
>> LibreOffice among members of the OpenOffice.org community. We're seeing
>> some of them stand up now and be counted.
> As OOo italian native lang maintainer and TDF supporter I don't really
> understand why you keep minimizing and ridiculizing TDF and what they
> have done instead to try to understand how they can be useful for the
> project.
As a complete outsider, I didn't read Robert's quoted comment as
ridiculing TDF. From my understanding, he was just saying that TDF
wasn't exactly what he wanted in an OOo fork, so he is pursuing this
"fork" because it more suits his needs and the needs of some other
members in the OOo community. I don't think this is ridicule, it is just
the very nature of "forking" in the open source world and what makes it
so great, right?
When the original OOo project wasn't working well, the community forked
to create TDF. So, for some people, TDF still isn't working well for
them and they want to create something else. That's just the nature of
open source and is nothing to worry about...let a thousand flowers bloom
and let the users decide.
-> richard
> People from ASF are trying to build a bridge while you keep to destroy
> any tentative.
>
> Don't you think it will be a great value *at least* to try to build a
> fruitful collaboration?
> Reading your blog, I can understand your critics but why don't try a
> step back and let it be a chance?
>
> Davide
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: OpenOffice.org Apache Incubator Proposal: Are we required to
make everyone happy?
Posted by Davide Dozza <da...@flossconsulting.it>.
Robert,
Il 02/06/2011 17:11, robert_weir@us.ibm.com ha scritto:
> Despite TDF press releases, there was never unanimous support for
> LibreOffice among members of the OpenOffice.org community. We're seeing
> some of them stand up now and be counted.
As OOo italian native lang maintainer and TDF supporter I don't really
understand why you keep minimizing and ridiculizing TDF and what they
have done instead to try to understand how they can be useful for the
project.
People from ASF are trying to build a bridge while you keep to destroy
any tentative.
Don't you think it will be a great value *at least* to try to build a
fruitful collaboration?
Reading your blog, I can understand your critics but why don't try a
step back and let it be a chance?
Davide
Re: Happy happy joy joy
Posted by Robert Burrell Donkin <ro...@gmail.com>.
On Thu, Jun 2, 2011 at 4:31 PM, Donald Whytock <dw...@gmail.com> wrote:
> The butler did it.
:-)
> On Thu, Jun 2, 2011 at 11:17 AM, Jim Jagielski <ji...@jagunet.com> wrote:
>> Guys, if we are going to argue over the mistakes of the pasts
>> and the slights of the past, quite frankly, we aren't going to
>> get very far.
>>
>> This is supposed to be a happy occasion; let's not bicker
>> and argue about who-killed-who... :)
+1
If anything needs recording then submit a (documentation) patch ;-)
Robert
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Re: Happy happy joy joy
Posted by Robert Burrell Donkin <ro...@gmail.com>.
On Tue, Jun 7, 2011 at 2:06 PM, Steve Loughran <st...@apache.org> wrote:
> On 06/02/2011 04:31 PM, Donald Whytock wrote:
>>
>> The butler did it.
>
> yeah, the new butler, jenkins, killed the old one, hudson as hudson was
> getting too noise for a staff member of the household.
ROFL :-)
Robert
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Re: Happy happy joy joy
Posted by Steve Loughran <st...@apache.org>.
On 06/02/2011 04:31 PM, Donald Whytock wrote:
> The butler did it.
yeah, the new butler, jenkins, killed the old one, hudson as hudson was
getting too noise for a staff member of the household.
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Re: Happy happy joy joy
Posted by Donald Whytock <dw...@gmail.com>.
The butler did it.
On Thu, Jun 2, 2011 at 11:17 AM, Jim Jagielski <ji...@jagunet.com> wrote:
> Guys, if we are going to argue over the mistakes of the pasts
> and the slights of the past, quite frankly, we aren't going to
> get very far.
>
> This is supposed to be a happy occasion; let's not bicker
> and argue about who-killed-who... :)
>
> On Jun 2, 2011, at 11:11 AM, robert_weir@us.ibm.com wrote:
>
>> Jochen Wiedmann <jo...@gmail.com> wrote on 06/02/2011 10:25:20
>> AM:
>>
>>>>
>>>> I trust I do not need to explain at length to an Apache PMC the
>> relative
>>>> merits of the Apache 2.0 license or the strengths and stability of the
>>>> ASF. I'll take it as granted that this is well-known to you all. In
>> any
>>>> case I am a strict adherent to the practical wisdom of not debating
>> open
>>>> source licenses while sober, and I decline to make an exception in
>> this
>>>> case.
>>>
>>> Rob, it may come as a surprise to you: But what I wrote was in no way
>>> related to a particular license. I would have written just the same,
>>> if Apache would use the LGPL/MPL and LibreOffice where ASL licensed.
>>>
>>> The point I am trying to make is that it is (IMO) in noone's interest
>>> to create a second community (!), the exception (at least it seems)
>>> being IBM. Everyone else would be just as happy or even happier if the
>>> OO code base, trademarks, etc. where simply donated to TDF.
>>>
>>
>> Respectfully, Jochen, that is your opinion, but it disproved with every
>> non-IBM name added to the wiki.
>>
>> Despite TDF press releases, there was never unanimous support for
>> LibreOffice among members of the OpenOffice.org community. We're seeing
>> some of them stand up now and be counted.
>>
>> What is best for them? Really? Do you really want to tell them what is
>> best for them, what will make everyone happy?!
>>
>
>
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>
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Re: Happy happy joy joy
Posted by "William A. Rowe Jr." <wr...@rowe-clan.net>.
On 6/8/2011 11:12 AM, Jochen Wiedmann wrote:
> On Wed, Jun 8, 2011 at 5:45 PM, Donald Whytock <dw...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Is that a copyleft swallow or an ALv2 swallow?
>
> No definitive indicator for the latter, but if it consumes parts of
> the other, then it must be the former ...
I believe the proper question is "What is the airspeed velocity of an AL laden,
GPL swallow?" (seeing as an AL swallow can't lift GPL).
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Re: Happy happy joy joy
Posted by Jochen Wiedmann <jo...@gmail.com>.
On Wed, Jun 8, 2011 at 5:45 PM, Donald Whytock <dw...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Is that a copyleft swallow or an ALv2 swallow?
No definitive indicator for the latter, but if it consumes parts of
the other, then it must be the former ...
--
Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men
will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of
everyone.
John Maynard Keynes (http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Keynes)
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Re: Happy happy joy joy
Posted by Donald Whytock <dw...@gmail.com>.
Is that a copyleft swallow or an ALv2 swallow?
On Wed, Jun 8, 2011 at 8:38 AM, Jim Jagielski <ji...@jagunet.com> wrote:
>
> On Jun 7, 2011, at 2:43 PM, Simos Xenitellis wrote:
>
>> On Thu, Jun 2, 2011 at 6:17 PM, Jim Jagielski <ji...@jagunet.com> wrote:
>>> Guys, if we are going to argue over the mistakes of the pasts
>>> and the slights of the past, quite frankly, we aren't going to
>>> get very far.
>>>
>>> This is supposed to be a happy occasion; let's not bicker
>>> and argue about who-killed-who... :)
>>>
>>
>> If this is an attempt for reconciliation, it's somewhat poor ;-)
>> And the last paragraph, quite ambiguous.
>>
>> You say 'bicker', which can be interpreted as a way to dissuade people
>> from discussing.
>> Do you feel people are bickering? The whole affair is a big issue, and
>> what I detect
>> is an attitude that it would better just not to discuss the touchy
>> issues, as if they will go away.
>
> Monty Python and the Holy Grail.
>
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Re: Happy happy joy joy
Posted by Jim Jagielski <ji...@jaguNET.com>.
On Jun 7, 2011, at 2:43 PM, Simos Xenitellis wrote:
> On Thu, Jun 2, 2011 at 6:17 PM, Jim Jagielski <ji...@jagunet.com> wrote:
>> Guys, if we are going to argue over the mistakes of the pasts
>> and the slights of the past, quite frankly, we aren't going to
>> get very far.
>>
>> This is supposed to be a happy occasion; let's not bicker
>> and argue about who-killed-who... :)
>>
>
> If this is an attempt for reconciliation, it's somewhat poor ;-)
> And the last paragraph, quite ambiguous.
>
> You say 'bicker', which can be interpreted as a way to dissuade people
> from discussing.
> Do you feel people are bickering? The whole affair is a big issue, and
> what I detect
> is an attitude that it would better just not to discuss the touchy
> issues, as if they will go away.
Monty Python and the Holy Grail.
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Re: Happy happy joy joy
Posted by Simos Xenitellis <si...@googlemail.com>.
On Thu, Jun 2, 2011 at 6:17 PM, Jim Jagielski <ji...@jagunet.com> wrote:
> Guys, if we are going to argue over the mistakes of the pasts
> and the slights of the past, quite frankly, we aren't going to
> get very far.
>
> This is supposed to be a happy occasion; let's not bicker
> and argue about who-killed-who... :)
>
If this is an attempt for reconciliation, it's somewhat poor ;-)
And the last paragraph, quite ambiguous.
You say 'bicker', which can be interpreted as a way to dissuade people
from discussing.
Do you feel people are bickering? The whole affair is a big issue, and
what I detect
is an attitude that it would better just not to discuss the touchy
issues, as if they will go away.
Simos
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Happy happy joy joy
Posted by Jim Jagielski <ji...@jaguNET.com>.
Guys, if we are going to argue over the mistakes of the pasts
and the slights of the past, quite frankly, we aren't going to
get very far.
This is supposed to be a happy occasion; let's not bicker
and argue about who-killed-who... :)
On Jun 2, 2011, at 11:11 AM, robert_weir@us.ibm.com wrote:
> Jochen Wiedmann <jo...@gmail.com> wrote on 06/02/2011 10:25:20
> AM:
>
>>>
>>> I trust I do not need to explain at length to an Apache PMC the
> relative
>>> merits of the Apache 2.0 license or the strengths and stability of the
>>> ASF. I'll take it as granted that this is well-known to you all. In
> any
>>> case I am a strict adherent to the practical wisdom of not debating
> open
>>> source licenses while sober, and I decline to make an exception in
> this
>>> case.
>>
>> Rob, it may come as a surprise to you: But what I wrote was in no way
>> related to a particular license. I would have written just the same,
>> if Apache would use the LGPL/MPL and LibreOffice where ASL licensed.
>>
>> The point I am trying to make is that it is (IMO) in noone's interest
>> to create a second community (!), the exception (at least it seems)
>> being IBM. Everyone else would be just as happy or even happier if the
>> OO code base, trademarks, etc. where simply donated to TDF.
>>
>
> Respectfully, Jochen, that is your opinion, but it disproved with every
> non-IBM name added to the wiki.
>
> Despite TDF press releases, there was never unanimous support for
> LibreOffice among members of the OpenOffice.org community. We're seeing
> some of them stand up now and be counted.
>
> What is best for them? Really? Do you really want to tell them what is
> best for them, what will make everyone happy?!
>
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