You are viewing a plain text version of this content. The canonical link for it is here.
Posted to dev@geronimo.apache.org by Jason Dillon <ja...@planet57.com> on 2006/09/24 21:11:41 UTC
Re: [CONF] Apache Geronimo Knowledge Base: Indice (page created)
I think it is a bad idea to have some many languages in the wiki.
Wiki is meant to allow one person to go in and add content or change
it... by having these language specific sections of the wiki it means
that one person can not really do that anymore.
For example, I have absolutely no plans to update any of the KB items
in any other language other than english... same goes for build
documentation and other docs.
If we did want to add multiple languages, then we need a system that
will handle switching the language and content based on the users
browser, which confluence does not.
But even then I think that for semi-dynamic content like wiki
pages... that this is a very bad idea and will almost always lead to
the content getting out of sync.
I would much, much, much prefer that the english pages get cleaned up
and have more quality content added, then to try and get the existing
pages into more languages.
--jason
On Sep 23, 2006, at 1:30 PM, confluence@apache.org wrote:
> Page Created : GMOxKB : Indice
> Indice has been created by Waldo Ramírez Montaño (Sep 23, 2006).
>
> Content:
>
> Apache Geronimo - Base de Conocimientos
>
>
>
> Powered by Atlassian Confluence (Version: 2.1.5a Build:#411 Mar 16,
> 2006) - Bug/feature request
>
> Unsubscribe or edit your notifications preferences
>
Re: [CONF] Apache Geronimo Knowledge Base: Indice (page created)
Posted by Heinz Drews <he...@gmail.com>.
Hello Jason,
I'm a little bit shocked by your message.
How should Geronimo find good acceptance when it is restricted to an english
speaking community only?
It will be then always stay behind JBoss where the establishment of an
international supporter base was very successful.
If it is difficult to synchronize the content then the product used to run
the wiki is the problem not that members of the community want to use a
different language then English.
The wiki content will never be stable enough to define a point when the
translation should begin.
I think that I would be possible that there will be content in other
languages with out a counterpart in english.
Hoping that my concerns are understood correctly,
Heinz
On 9/24/06, Jason Dillon <ja...@planet57.com> wrote:
>
> I think it is a bad idea to have some many languages in the wiki.
>
> Wiki is meant to allow one person to go in and add content or change it...
> by having these language specific sections of the wiki it means that one
> person can not really do that anymore.
>
> For example, I have absolutely no plans to update any of the KB items in
> any other language other than english... same goes for build documentation
> and other docs.
>
> If we did want to add multiple languages, then we need a system that will
> handle switching the language and content based on the users browser, which
> confluence does not.
>
> But even then I think that for semi-dynamic content like wiki pages...
> that this is a very bad idea and will almost always lead to the content
> getting out of sync.
>
> I would much, much, much prefer that the english pages get cleaned up and
> have more quality content added, then to try and get the existing pages into
> more languages.
>
> --jason
>
>
> On Sep 23, 2006, at 1:30 PM, confluence@apache.org wrote:
>
> Page Created : GMOxKB <http://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/GMOxKB>:
> Indice <http://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/GMOxKB/Indice>
>
> Indice <http://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/GMOxKB/Indice> has been
> created by Waldo Ramírez Montańo<http://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/%7Ewaldo.ramirez%2540correo.unam.mx> (Sep
> 23, 2006).
> Content:
>
> Apache Geronimo - Base de Conocimientos
>
> Powered by Atlassian Confluence<http://www.atlassian.com/software/confluence/default.jsp?clicked=footer>(Version:
> 2.1.5a Build:#411 Mar 16, 2006) - Bug/feature request<http://jira.atlassian.com/secure/BrowseProject.jspa?id=10470>
>
> Unsubscribe or edit your notifications preferences<http://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/users/viewnotifications.action>
>
>
>
Re: [CONF] Apache Geronimo Knowledge Base: Indice (page created)
Posted by Aaron Mulder <am...@alumni.princeton.edu>.
My main concern would be that I'd never know if the docs were out of
date because I would't be able to read the page.
I'd be fine with (and happy to see) translations, if:
* We take care to keep the pages for each language separate so a
reader doesn't wander back and forth
* Every page says exactly what version of Geronimo it targets
We might also ask the author to include a link on the page to report
out-of-date content, but I'm not sure what we could really do with
that, since we may find it difficult to maintain ourselves. In any
case, we might consider creating a standard page header block that
would capture key information like the version of Geronimo the page
was written for.
As foreign-language pages were written, it might be nice to ask the
authors to be on call as reviewers for other pages in that language,
so we had someone we could ask to review other pages for
foreign-language spam, etc.
Thanks,
Aaron
On 9/24/06, Jason Dillon <ja...@planet57.com> wrote:
>
> Shall we time how long the gap is when english docs are updated... and when the per-language pages are translated?
>
>
> I think it is great to have so many cultures interested in G, and peeps willing to translate... but I think that it is premature for our community at this time... and by trying to make it multilingual from the start will only create more confusion, since I am almost positive the docs will get out of sync quite quickly.
>
>
> And IMO... out of sync docs are very, very, very bad. IMO we risk the possibility of making our docs even less useful then they already are by this effort.
>
>
> For stable, unchanging docs... I think its fine... but I just noticed that someone added a complete new language for the KB, which I think is a bad idea. The namespace was chopped into to... searches will return a bunch of non-relevant pages.
>
>
> Where else is this kind of language translation being done? Even Atlassian does not do this.
>
>
> I do not want to discourage anyone... but I think that this effort is going to end up hurting the movement than anything else.
>
>
> --jason
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sep 24, 2006, at 2:33 PM, Matt Hogstrom wrote:
>
> I understand your point but if we have people that are willing to put in the time and effort at translation why should we discourage them? I think its awesome that people think enough about Geronimo to spend their time doing this for the benefit of non-english speakers.
>
>
> If it turns out that the content ends up out of sync (which it may very well due to the preponderance of english speakers such as yourself) at that point I think natural selection kicks in.
>
>
>
> On Sep 24, 2006, at 3:11 PM, Jason Dillon wrote:
>
> I think it is a bad idea to have some many languages in the wiki.
>
>
> Wiki is meant to allow one person to go in and add content or change it... by having these language specific sections of the wiki it means that one person can not really do that anymore.
>
>
> For example, I have absolutely no plans to update any of the KB items in any other language other than english... same goes for build documentation and other docs.
>
>
> If we did want to add multiple languages, then we need a system that will handle switching the language and content based on the users browser, which confluence does not.
>
>
> But even then I think that for semi-dynamic content like wiki pages... that this is a very bad idea and will almost always lead to the content getting out of sync.
>
>
> I would much, much, much prefer that the english pages get cleaned up and have more quality content added, then to try and get the existing pages into more languages.
>
>
> --jason
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sep 23, 2006, at 1:30 PM, confluence@apache.org wrote:
>
>
>
>
> Page Created : GMOxKB : Indice
>
> Indice has been created by Waldo Ramírez Montańo (Sep 23, 2006).Content:
>
>
>
> Apache Geronimo - Base de Conocimientos
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Powered by Atlassian Confluence (Version: 2.1.5a Build:#411 Mar 16, 2006) - Bug/feature request
>
> Unsubscribe or edit your notifications preferences
>
>
>
>
> Matt Hogstrom
> matt@hogstrom.org
>
>
>
>
>
Re: [CONF] Apache Geronimo Knowledge Base: Indice (page created)
Posted by Jacek Laskowski <ja...@laskowski.net.pl>.
On 9/25/06, Joe Bohn <jo...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> Would it help if we requested that each translation include a statement
> (appropriately translated of course) at the top of each document that
> said something like the following?
>
> "Please note that the primary documentation for Geronimo is captured and
> maintained in English. Therefore, this translation to <language> may be
> out of date. If something doesn't appear to be correct or just isn't
> working then please consult the English documentation."
+1
Where would we like it to be described as a rule?
I'm definitely for people who find their time contributing to Geronimo
in any way, translating or even writing Geronimo docs on their own,
including. Instead of complaining on the difference between the
English-written documentation and other translations, we should
encourage people to keep looking at the main documentation in English
or ask the dev/user mailing lists. I'm pretty sure that natural
selection will take place and a better documentation wins.
> Is that too confusing or politically incorrect?
Nie. (Polish 'no')
Jacek
--
Jacek Laskowski
http://www.laskowski.net.pl
Re: [CONF] Apache Geronimo Knowledge Base: Indice (page created)
Posted by Matt Hogstrom <ma...@hogstrom.org>.
On Sep 24, 2006, at 10:30 PM, Joe Bohn wrote:
> Would it help if we requested that each translation include a
> statement (appropriately translated of course) at the top of each
> document that said something like the following?
>
> "Please note that the primary documentation for Geronimo is
> captured and maintained in English. Therefore, this translation to
> <language> may be out of date. If something doesn't appear to be
> correct or just isn't working then please consult the English
> documentation."
>
Si
> I'm sure that could be reworded ... but you get the general idea.
>
Da
> Is that too confusing or politically incorrect?
>
Nein
> Joe
>
>
Matt Hogstrom
matt@hogstrom.org
Re: [CONF] Apache Geronimo Knowledge Base: Indice (page created)
Posted by Joe Bohn <jo...@earthlink.net>.
Would it help if we requested that each translation include a statement
(appropriately translated of course) at the top of each document that
said something like the following?
"Please note that the primary documentation for Geronimo is captured and
maintained in English. Therefore, this translation to <language> may be
out of date. If something doesn't appear to be correct or just isn't
working then please consult the English documentation."
I'm sure that could be reworded ... but you get the general idea.
Is that too confusing or politically incorrect?
Joe
Jason Dillon wrote:
> Shall we time how long the gap is when english docs are updated... and
> when the per-language pages are translated?
>
> I think it is great to have so many cultures interested in G, and peeps
> willing to translate... but I think that it is premature for our
> community at this time... and by trying to make it multilingual from the
> start will only create more confusion, since I am almost positive the
> docs will get out of sync quite quickly.
>
> And IMO... out of sync docs are very, very, very bad. IMO we risk the
> possibility of making our docs even less useful then they already are by
> this effort.
>
> For stable, unchanging docs... I think its fine... but I just noticed
> that someone added a complete new language for the KB, which I think is
> a bad idea. The namespace was chopped into to... searches will return a
> bunch of non-relevant pages.
>
> Where else is this kind of language translation being done? Even
> Atlassian does not do this.
>
> I do not want to discourage anyone... but I think that this effort is
> going to end up hurting the movement than anything else.
>
> --jason
>
>
> On Sep 24, 2006, at 2:33 PM, Matt Hogstrom wrote:
>
>> I understand your point but if we have people that are willing to put
>> in the time and effort at translation why should we discourage them?
>> I think its awesome that people think enough about Geronimo to spend
>> their time doing this for the benefit of non-english speakers.
>>
>> If it turns out that the content ends up out of sync (which it may
>> very well due to the preponderance of english speakers such as
>> yourself) at that point I think natural selection kicks in.
>>
>> On Sep 24, 2006, at 3:11 PM, Jason Dillon wrote:
>>
>>> I think it is a bad idea to have some many languages in the wiki.
>>>
>>>
>>> Wiki is meant to allow one person to go in and add content or change
>>> it... by having these language specific sections of the wiki it means
>>> that one person can not really do that anymore.
>>>
>>> For example, I have absolutely no plans to update any of the KB items
>>> in any other language other than english... same goes for build
>>> documentation and other docs.
>>>
>>> If we did want to add multiple languages, then we need a system that
>>> will handle switching the language and content based on the users
>>> browser, which confluence does not.
>>>
>>> But even then I think that for semi-dynamic content like wiki
>>> pages... that this is a very bad idea and will almost always lead to
>>> the content getting out of sync.
>>>
>>> I would much, much, much prefer that the english pages get cleaned up
>>> and have more quality content added, then to try and get the existing
>>> pages into more languages.
>>>
>>> --jason
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sep 23, 2006, at 1:30 PM, confluence@apache.org
>>> <ma...@apache.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Page Created : GMOxKB
>>>> <http://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/GMOxKB> : Indice
>>>> <http://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/GMOxKB/Indice>
>>>>
>>>> Indice <http://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/GMOxKB/Indice>
>>>> has been created by Waldo Ramírez Montaño
>>>> <http://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/~waldo.ramirez%2540correo.unam.mx>
>>>> (Sep 23, 2006).
>>>>
>>>> Content:
>>>>
>>>> Apache Geronimo - Base de Conocimientos
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Powered by Atlassian Confluence
>>>> <http://www.atlassian.com/software/confluence/default.jsp?clicked=footer>
>>>> (Version: 2.1.5a Build:#411 Mar 16, 2006) - Bug/feature request
>>>> <http://jira.atlassian.com/secure/BrowseProject.jspa?id=10470>
>>>>
>>>> Unsubscribe or edit your notifications preferences
>>>> <http://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/users/viewnotifications.action>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>> Matt Hogstrom
>> matt@hogstrom.org <ma...@hogstrom.org>
>>
>>
>>
>
Re: [CONF] Apache Geronimo Knowledge Base: Indice (page created)
Posted by Jason Dillon <ja...@planet57.com>.
Shall we time how long the gap is when english docs are updated...
and when the per-language pages are translated?
I think it is great to have so many cultures interested in G, and
peeps willing to translate... but I think that it is premature for
our community at this time... and by trying to make it multilingual
from the start will only create more confusion, since I am almost
positive the docs will get out of sync quite quickly.
And IMO... out of sync docs are very, very, very bad. IMO we risk
the possibility of making our docs even less useful then they already
are by this effort.
For stable, unchanging docs... I think its fine... but I just noticed
that someone added a complete new language for the KB, which I think
is a bad idea. The namespace was chopped into to... searches will
return a bunch of non-relevant pages.
Where else is this kind of language translation being done? Even
Atlassian does not do this.
I do not want to discourage anyone... but I think that this effort is
going to end up hurting the movement than anything else.
--jason
On Sep 24, 2006, at 2:33 PM, Matt Hogstrom wrote:
> I understand your point but if we have people that are willing to
> put in the time and effort at translation why should we discourage
> them? I think its awesome that people think enough about Geronimo
> to spend their time doing this for the benefit of non-english
> speakers.
>
> If it turns out that the content ends up out of sync (which it may
> very well due to the preponderance of english speakers such as
> yourself) at that point I think natural selection kicks in.
>
> On Sep 24, 2006, at 3:11 PM, Jason Dillon wrote:
>
>> I think it is a bad idea to have some many languages in the wiki.
>>
>> Wiki is meant to allow one person to go in and add content or
>> change it... by having these language specific sections of the
>> wiki it means that one person can not really do that anymore.
>>
>> For example, I have absolutely no plans to update any of the KB
>> items in any other language other than english... same goes for
>> build documentation and other docs.
>>
>> If we did want to add multiple languages, then we need a system
>> that will handle switching the language and content based on the
>> users browser, which confluence does not.
>>
>> But even then I think that for semi-dynamic content like wiki
>> pages... that this is a very bad idea and will almost always lead
>> to the content getting out of sync.
>>
>> I would much, much, much prefer that the english pages get cleaned
>> up and have more quality content added, then to try and get the
>> existing pages into more languages.
>>
>> --jason
>>
>>
>> On Sep 23, 2006, at 1:30 PM, confluence@apache.org wrote:
>>
>>> Page Created : GMOxKB : Indice
>>> Indice has been created by Waldo Ramírez Montaño (Sep 23, 2006).
>>>
>>> Content:
>>>
>>> Apache Geronimo - Base de Conocimientos
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Powered by Atlassian Confluence (Version: 2.1.5a Build:#411 Mar
>>> 16, 2006) - Bug/feature request
>>>
>>> Unsubscribe or edit your notifications preferences
>>>
>>
>
> Matt Hogstrom
> matt@hogstrom.org
>
>
>
Re: [CONF] Apache Geronimo Knowledge Base: Indice (page created)
Posted by Matt Hogstrom <ma...@hogstrom.org>.
I understand your point but if we have people that are willing to put
in the time and effort at translation why should we discourage them?
I think its awesome that people think enough about Geronimo to spend
their time doing this for the benefit of non-english speakers.
If it turns out that the content ends up out of sync (which it may
very well due to the preponderance of english speakers such as
yourself) at that point I think natural selection kicks in.
On Sep 24, 2006, at 3:11 PM, Jason Dillon wrote:
> I think it is a bad idea to have some many languages in the wiki.
>
> Wiki is meant to allow one person to go in and add content or
> change it... by having these language specific sections of the wiki
> it means that one person can not really do that anymore.
>
> For example, I have absolutely no plans to update any of the KB
> items in any other language other than english... same goes for
> build documentation and other docs.
>
> If we did want to add multiple languages, then we need a system
> that will handle switching the language and content based on the
> users browser, which confluence does not.
>
> But even then I think that for semi-dynamic content like wiki
> pages... that this is a very bad idea and will almost always lead
> to the content getting out of sync.
>
> I would much, much, much prefer that the english pages get cleaned
> up and have more quality content added, then to try and get the
> existing pages into more languages.
>
> --jason
>
>
> On Sep 23, 2006, at 1:30 PM, confluence@apache.org wrote:
>
>> Page Created : GMOxKB : Indice
>> Indice has been created by Waldo Ramírez Montaño (Sep 23, 2006).
>>
>> Content:
>>
>> Apache Geronimo - Base de Conocimientos
>>
>>
>>
>> Powered by Atlassian Confluence (Version: 2.1.5a Build:#411 Mar
>> 16, 2006) - Bug/feature request
>>
>> Unsubscribe or edit your notifications preferences
>>
>
Matt Hogstrom
matt@hogstrom.org