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Posted to users@groovy.apache.org by Thibault Kruse <ti...@googlemail.com> on 2017/11/27 07:58:27 UTC
Re: About Gradle, Kotlin and Inner Fear
So, roughly 18 months later, it seems that projects are not exactly
flocking on hordes to kotlinscript-based gradle builds:
allinurl: build.gradle -kotlin-dsl -JetBrains-kotlin site:github.com 37,300
allinurl: build.gradle.kts -kotlin-dsl -JetBrains-kotlin site:github.com 175
And if I tried to remove all projects that are directly kotlin
related, that number would be even lower.
So it seems both migrating from Groovy to Kotlin as well as starting
new gradle projects with kotlin instead of groovy is not very popular
for projects hosted on github so far, unless my google search query is
flawed.
On Thu, May 26, 2016 at 2:51 AM, Suderman Keith <su...@anc.org> wrote:
> I suspect a deep knowledge of the inner workings of Eclipse would be
> required. You could always take a look at the code on GitHub [1] and see if
> you can make sense of it. Although, it may not be as dead as we have been
> led to believe (I personally use IntelliJ) as it looks like that latest
> SNAPSHOT was released Mar 4, 2016.
>
> Cheers,
> Keith
>
> REFERENCES
>
> 1. https://github.com/groovy/groovy-eclipse
>
> On May 25, 2016, at 7:22 PM, Balachandran Sivakumar <be...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> On Mon, May 23, 2016 at 10:02 PM, Balachandran Sivakumar
> <be...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Cedric,
>>
>> On Mon, May 23, 2016 at 5:27 PM, Cédric Champeau
>> <ce...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> there's absolutely no need for an external DSL descriptor: all the
>>>> constructs of the language, like extension methods or static builders are
>>>> first class language features. The issue is, IDE support for Groovy is
>>>> lacking (Groovy Eclipse is dead, IntelliJ needs to know specifics of static
>>>> Gradle/Groovy scripts, ...)
>>
>>
>> If we have to resurrect it, what would it take ? I mean, what skill
>> set/knowledge should someone have to work on it and resurrect it ? Also,
>> can someone here help with that effort ? Thanks
>>
>
> Can someone please help with this ? What would it take for someone with
> reasonable Groovy/Java knowledge to pick up Goovy Eclipse and maintain it ?
> Thanks
>
> --
> Thank you
> Balachandran Sivakumar
>
>
> ------------------------------
> Research Associate
> Department of Computer Science
> Vassar College
> Poughkeepsie, NY
>
Re: About Gradle, Kotlin and Inner Fear
Posted by Russel Winder <ru...@winder.org.uk>.
On Mon, 2017-11-27 at 20:23 +0100, Guillaume Laforge wrote:
> Anecdotal data points as well at conferences, when I ask the question
> to
> the audience, usually I get a third using Gradle vs two thirds still
> using
> Maven.
I wonder how many are still using Ant or even Make but not admitting
it?
> Kotlin's use is still also anecdotical, while Apache Groovy is still
> way
> more in use, but there's definitely lots of interest about Kotlin.
The rumour appears to be that Kotlin is taking off on Android because
Java is still ancient on that platform.
> It's funny to see folks touting Kotlin with the same arguments we've
> used
> for the past 14 years when we were praising Groovy ourselves :-)
>
But which arguments?
--
Russel.
===========================================
Dr Russel Winder t: +44 20 7585 2200
41 Buckmaster Road m: +44 7770 465 077
London SW11 1EN, UK w: www.russel.org.uk
Re: About Gradle, Kotlin and Inner Fear
Posted by Guillaume Laforge <gl...@gmail.com>.
Anecdotal data points as well at conferences, when I ask the question to
the audience, usually I get a third using Gradle vs two thirds still using
Maven.
Kotlin's use is still also anecdotical, while Apache Groovy is still way
more in use, but there's definitely lots of interest about Kotlin.
It's funny to see folks touting Kotlin with the same arguments we've used
for the past 14 years when we were praising Groovy ourselves :-)
On Mon, Nov 27, 2017 at 6:39 PM, Russel Winder <ru...@winder.org.uk> wrote:
> On Mon, 2017-11-27 at 10:21 +0100, Guillaume Laforge wrote:
> > Summarizing the numbers I got with BigQuery queries for Maven vs
> > Gradle,
> > and Gradle in Kotlin vs Groovy here:
> > http://glaforge.appspot.com/article/gradle-vs-maven-and-gradle-in-kot
> > lin-or-groovy
> >
>
> Anecdotal evidence from a workshop at DevoxxUK 2017 was that everyone
> in the room uses Maven and almost no-one uses Gradle. Project are
> interesting but only a minor indicator of actual use since most code is
> still proprietary: FOSS code is not a good indicator of software
> development. Even though FOSS is the one true way.
>
> --
> Russel.
> ===========================================
> Dr Russel Winder t: +44 20 7585 2200
> 41 Buckmaster Road m: +44 7770 465 077
> London SW11 1EN, UK w: www.russel.org.uk
>
--
Guillaume Laforge
Apache Groovy committer & PMC Vice-President
Developer Advocate @ Google Cloud Platform
Blog: http://glaforge.appspot.com/
Social: @glaforge <http://twitter.com/glaforge> / Google+
<https://plus.google.com/u/0/114130972232398734985/posts>
Re: About Gradle, Kotlin and Inner Fear
Posted by Russel Winder <ru...@winder.org.uk>.
On Mon, 2017-11-27 at 10:21 +0100, Guillaume Laforge wrote:
> Summarizing the numbers I got with BigQuery queries for Maven vs
> Gradle,
> and Gradle in Kotlin vs Groovy here:
> http://glaforge.appspot.com/article/gradle-vs-maven-and-gradle-in-kot
> lin-or-groovy
>
Anecdotal evidence from a workshop at DevoxxUK 2017 was that everyone
in the room uses Maven and almost no-one uses Gradle. Project are
interesting but only a minor indicator of actual use since most code is
still proprietary: FOSS code is not a good indicator of software
development. Even though FOSS is the one true way.
--
Russel.
===========================================
Dr Russel Winder t: +44 20 7585 2200
41 Buckmaster Road m: +44 7770 465 077
London SW11 1EN, UK w: www.russel.org.uk
Re: About Gradle, Kotlin and Inner Fear
Posted by Guillaume Laforge <gl...@gmail.com>.
Summarizing the numbers I got with BigQuery queries for Maven vs Gradle,
and Gradle in Kotlin vs Groovy here:
http://glaforge.appspot.com/article/gradle-vs-maven-and-gradle-in-kotlin-or-groovy
Guillaume
On Mon, Nov 27, 2017 at 9:31 AM, Guillaume Laforge <gl...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> Our of curiosity, I did a quick run through the Github dataset that is
> available through Google's BigQuery <https://bigquery.cloud.google.com>
> analytics tool.
>
> There are certainly different ways to count gradle builds, as not all are
> necessarily named build.gradle, etc, but it should give a good enough
> estimate of proportions.
> Perhaps there are better queries for double checking this. Perhaps
> developers also use a different file name than gradle.kts?
> Anyway, I ran this query to know how many build.gradle and
> build.gradle.kts build files there are on open source github repositories.
> Here's what I got.
>
> There are 414,329 build.gradle files (in Groovy).
>
>
>
>
> There are 207 build.gradle.kts files (in Kotlin).
>
>
>
> So that's basically one Kotlin build for 2000 Groovy builds.
>
> Guillaume
>
>
> On Mon, Nov 27, 2017 at 8:58 AM, Thibault Kruse <ti...@googlemail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> So, roughly 18 months later, it seems that projects are not exactly
>> flocking on hordes to kotlinscript-based gradle builds:
>> allinurl: build.gradle -kotlin-dsl -JetBrains-kotlin site:github.com
>> 37,300
>> allinurl: build.gradle.kts -kotlin-dsl -JetBrains-kotlin site:github.com
>> 175
>>
>> And if I tried to remove all projects that are directly kotlin
>> related, that number would be even lower.
>>
>> So it seems both migrating from Groovy to Kotlin as well as starting
>> new gradle projects with kotlin instead of groovy is not very popular
>> for projects hosted on github so far, unless my google search query is
>> flawed.
>>
>> On Thu, May 26, 2016 at 2:51 AM, Suderman Keith <su...@anc.org> wrote:
>> > I suspect a deep knowledge of the inner workings of Eclipse would be
>> > required. You could always take a look at the code on GitHub [1] and
>> see if
>> > you can make sense of it. Although, it may not be as dead as we have
>> been
>> > led to believe (I personally use IntelliJ) as it looks like that latest
>> > SNAPSHOT was released Mar 4, 2016.
>> >
>> > Cheers,
>> > Keith
>> >
>> > REFERENCES
>> >
>> > 1. https://github.com/groovy/groovy-eclipse
>> >
>> > On May 25, 2016, at 7:22 PM, Balachandran Sivakumar <
>> benignbala@gmail.com>
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> > Hi,
>> >
>> > On Mon, May 23, 2016 at 10:02 PM, Balachandran Sivakumar
>> > <be...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Hi Cedric,
>> >>
>> >> On Mon, May 23, 2016 at 5:27 PM, Cédric Champeau
>> >> <ce...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>> there's absolutely no need for an external DSL descriptor: all the
>> >>>> constructs of the language, like extension methods or static
>> builders are
>> >>>> first class language features. The issue is, IDE support for Groovy
>> is
>> >>>> lacking (Groovy Eclipse is dead, IntelliJ needs to know specifics of
>> static
>> >>>> Gradle/Groovy scripts, ...)
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> If we have to resurrect it, what would it take ? I mean, what skill
>> >> set/knowledge should someone have to work on it and resurrect it ?
>> Also,
>> >> can someone here help with that effort ? Thanks
>> >>
>> >
>> > Can someone please help with this ? What would it take for someone
>> with
>> > reasonable Groovy/Java knowledge to pick up Goovy Eclipse and maintain
>> it ?
>> > Thanks
>> >
>> > --
>> > Thank you
>> > Balachandran Sivakumar
>> >
>> >
>> > ------------------------------
>> > Research Associate
>> > Department of Computer Science
>> > Vassar College
>> > Poughkeepsie, NY
>> >
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Guillaume Laforge
> Apache Groovy committer & PMC Vice-President
> Developer Advocate @ Google Cloud Platform
>
> Blog: http://glaforge.appspot.com/
> Social: @glaforge <http://twitter.com/glaforge> / Google+
> <https://plus.google.com/u/0/114130972232398734985/posts>
>
--
Guillaume Laforge
Apache Groovy committer & PMC Vice-President
Developer Advocate @ Google Cloud Platform
Blog: http://glaforge.appspot.com/
Social: @glaforge <http://twitter.com/glaforge> / Google+
<https://plus.google.com/u/0/114130972232398734985/posts>
Re: About Gradle, Kotlin and Inner Fear
Posted by Cédric Champeau <ce...@gmail.com>.
It's a bit premature to compare IMO. First, The Kotlin DSL is not even 1.0.
Second, it's currently most popular in Android projects, where we (at
Gradle) see a lot of early adopters, but it's most often closed source apps.
2017-11-27 9:31 GMT+01:00 Guillaume Laforge <gl...@gmail.com>:
> Our of curiosity, I did a quick run through the Github dataset that is
> available through Google's BigQuery <https://bigquery.cloud.google.com>
> analytics tool.
>
> There are certainly different ways to count gradle builds, as not all are
> necessarily named build.gradle, etc, but it should give a good enough
> estimate of proportions.
> Perhaps there are better queries for double checking this. Perhaps
> developers also use a different file name than gradle.kts?
> Anyway, I ran this query to know how many build.gradle and
> build.gradle.kts build files there are on open source github repositories.
> Here's what I got.
>
> There are 414,329 build.gradle files (in Groovy).
>
>
>
>
> There are 207 build.gradle.kts files (in Kotlin).
>
>
>
> So that's basically one Kotlin build for 2000 Groovy builds.
>
> Guillaume
>
>
> On Mon, Nov 27, 2017 at 8:58 AM, Thibault Kruse <ti...@googlemail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> So, roughly 18 months later, it seems that projects are not exactly
>> flocking on hordes to kotlinscript-based gradle builds:
>> allinurl: build.gradle -kotlin-dsl -JetBrains-kotlin site:github.com
>> 37,300
>> allinurl: build.gradle.kts -kotlin-dsl -JetBrains-kotlin site:github.com
>> 175
>>
>> And if I tried to remove all projects that are directly kotlin
>> related, that number would be even lower.
>>
>> So it seems both migrating from Groovy to Kotlin as well as starting
>> new gradle projects with kotlin instead of groovy is not very popular
>> for projects hosted on github so far, unless my google search query is
>> flawed.
>>
>> On Thu, May 26, 2016 at 2:51 AM, Suderman Keith <su...@anc.org> wrote:
>> > I suspect a deep knowledge of the inner workings of Eclipse would be
>> > required. You could always take a look at the code on GitHub [1] and
>> see if
>> > you can make sense of it. Although, it may not be as dead as we have
>> been
>> > led to believe (I personally use IntelliJ) as it looks like that latest
>> > SNAPSHOT was released Mar 4, 2016.
>> >
>> > Cheers,
>> > Keith
>> >
>> > REFERENCES
>> >
>> > 1. https://github.com/groovy/groovy-eclipse
>> >
>> > On May 25, 2016, at 7:22 PM, Balachandran Sivakumar <
>> benignbala@gmail.com>
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> > Hi,
>> >
>> > On Mon, May 23, 2016 at 10:02 PM, Balachandran Sivakumar
>> > <be...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Hi Cedric,
>> >>
>> >> On Mon, May 23, 2016 at 5:27 PM, Cédric Champeau
>> >> <ce...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>> there's absolutely no need for an external DSL descriptor: all the
>> >>>> constructs of the language, like extension methods or static
>> builders are
>> >>>> first class language features. The issue is, IDE support for Groovy
>> is
>> >>>> lacking (Groovy Eclipse is dead, IntelliJ needs to know specifics of
>> static
>> >>>> Gradle/Groovy scripts, ...)
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> If we have to resurrect it, what would it take ? I mean, what skill
>> >> set/knowledge should someone have to work on it and resurrect it ?
>> Also,
>> >> can someone here help with that effort ? Thanks
>> >>
>> >
>> > Can someone please help with this ? What would it take for someone
>> with
>> > reasonable Groovy/Java knowledge to pick up Goovy Eclipse and maintain
>> it ?
>> > Thanks
>> >
>> > --
>> > Thank you
>> > Balachandran Sivakumar
>> >
>> >
>> > ------------------------------
>> > Research Associate
>> > Department of Computer Science
>> > Vassar College
>> > Poughkeepsie, NY
>> >
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Guillaume Laforge
> Apache Groovy committer & PMC Vice-President
> Developer Advocate @ Google Cloud Platform
>
> Blog: http://glaforge.appspot.com/
> Social: @glaforge <http://twitter.com/glaforge> / Google+
> <https://plus.google.com/u/0/114130972232398734985/posts>
>
Re: About Gradle, Kotlin and Inner Fear
Posted by Guillaume Laforge <gl...@gmail.com>.
Our of curiosity, I did a quick run through the Github dataset that is
available through Google's BigQuery <https://bigquery.cloud.google.com>
analytics tool.
There are certainly different ways to count gradle builds, as not all are
necessarily named build.gradle, etc, but it should give a good enough
estimate of proportions.
Perhaps there are better queries for double checking this. Perhaps
developers also use a different file name than gradle.kts?
Anyway, I ran this query to know how many build.gradle and build.gradle.kts
build files there are on open source github repositories.
Here's what I got.
There are 414,329 build.gradle files (in Groovy).
There are 207 build.gradle.kts files (in Kotlin).
So that's basically one Kotlin build for 2000 Groovy builds.
Guillaume
On Mon, Nov 27, 2017 at 8:58 AM, Thibault Kruse <ti...@googlemail.com>
wrote:
> So, roughly 18 months later, it seems that projects are not exactly
> flocking on hordes to kotlinscript-based gradle builds:
> allinurl: build.gradle -kotlin-dsl -JetBrains-kotlin site:github.com
> 37,300
> allinurl: build.gradle.kts -kotlin-dsl -JetBrains-kotlin site:github.com
> 175
>
> And if I tried to remove all projects that are directly kotlin
> related, that number would be even lower.
>
> So it seems both migrating from Groovy to Kotlin as well as starting
> new gradle projects with kotlin instead of groovy is not very popular
> for projects hosted on github so far, unless my google search query is
> flawed.
>
> On Thu, May 26, 2016 at 2:51 AM, Suderman Keith <su...@anc.org> wrote:
> > I suspect a deep knowledge of the inner workings of Eclipse would be
> > required. You could always take a look at the code on GitHub [1] and
> see if
> > you can make sense of it. Although, it may not be as dead as we have been
> > led to believe (I personally use IntelliJ) as it looks like that latest
> > SNAPSHOT was released Mar 4, 2016.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Keith
> >
> > REFERENCES
> >
> > 1. https://github.com/groovy/groovy-eclipse
> >
> > On May 25, 2016, at 7:22 PM, Balachandran Sivakumar <
> benignbala@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > On Mon, May 23, 2016 at 10:02 PM, Balachandran Sivakumar
> > <be...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> Hi Cedric,
> >>
> >> On Mon, May 23, 2016 at 5:27 PM, Cédric Champeau
> >> <ce...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> there's absolutely no need for an external DSL descriptor: all the
> >>>> constructs of the language, like extension methods or static builders
> are
> >>>> first class language features. The issue is, IDE support for Groovy is
> >>>> lacking (Groovy Eclipse is dead, IntelliJ needs to know specifics of
> static
> >>>> Gradle/Groovy scripts, ...)
> >>
> >>
> >> If we have to resurrect it, what would it take ? I mean, what skill
> >> set/knowledge should someone have to work on it and resurrect it ? Also,
> >> can someone here help with that effort ? Thanks
> >>
> >
> > Can someone please help with this ? What would it take for someone
> with
> > reasonable Groovy/Java knowledge to pick up Goovy Eclipse and maintain
> it ?
> > Thanks
> >
> > --
> > Thank you
> > Balachandran Sivakumar
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> > Research Associate
> > Department of Computer Science
> > Vassar College
> > Poughkeepsie, NY
> >
>
--
Guillaume Laforge
Apache Groovy committer & PMC Vice-President
Developer Advocate @ Google Cloud Platform
Blog: http://glaforge.appspot.com/
Social: @glaforge <http://twitter.com/glaforge> / Google+
<https://plus.google.com/u/0/114130972232398734985/posts>
Re: About Gradle, Kotlin and Inner Fear
Posted by Russel Winder <ru...@winder.org.uk>.
On Tue, 2017-11-28 at 10:13 +0900, Thibault Kruse wrote:
>
[…]
> Of course there is inertia, and I have nothing to compare the numbers
> to to see if the inertia is normal or not normal.
> Maybe kotlinscript is hugely successful on github because the
> baseline
> expectation should be for there to still be zero projects on github
> using kotlinscript.
Never underestimate inertia in companies, especially big software
development companies!
> So I was curious what other people think of those numbers. To me they
> look low given the amount of blogposts about how great kotlin itself
> is (if assuming such kotlin-hyping bloggers would naturally publish
> their projects on github, too).
Java will remain the prime language on the JVM because it is the Java
Virtual Machine, not anyone else's! Also Java programmers, except the
ones who go to the forward looking sessions at conferences, do appear
to be incredibly conservative bunch. "We moved to Java 1.7, what more
do you want" types are not untypical in the era of OpenJDK9 being the
standard JDK.
They get even more conservative over build, usually because most do not
understand it. Often they are not allowed to change a build, they just
use it. So it is the "build masters" and DevOps folk that need to be
sampled as to why they are using Maven or Gradle, and why with Gradle
they use Groovy or Kotlin.
It would be interesting to see the results of such a bit of research if
someone were able to do it.
In the end getting examples out there of Kotlin used to drive Gradle
will be the only way to give people the confidence to use it: the early
adopters need to do the research for people by providing lots of
examples people can draw on.
--
Russel.
===========================================
Dr Russel Winder t: +44 20 7585 2200
41 Buckmaster Road m: +44 7770 465 077
London SW11 1EN, UK w: www.russel.org.uk
Re: About Gradle, Kotlin and Inner Fear
Posted by Thibault Kruse <ti...@googlemail.com>.
On Tue, Nov 28, 2017 at 2:35 AM, Russel Winder <ru...@winder.org.uk> wrote:
> On Mon, 2017-11-27 at 16:58 +0900, Thibault Kruse wrote:
>> So, roughly 18 months later, it seems that projects are not exactly
>> flocking on hordes to kotlinscript-based gradle builds:
>> allinurl: build.gradle -kotlin-dsl -JetBrains-kotlin site:github.com
>> 37,300
>> allinurl: build.gradle.kts -kotlin-dsl -JetBrains-kotlin
>> site:github.com 175
>
> So what's the problem?
Not sure if there is one, but a higher number would have indicated the
absence of a problem to me.
Since the number is not high, there might be one, or not.
Of course there is inertia, and I have nothing to compare the numbers
to to see if the inertia is normal or not normal.
Maybe kotlinscript is hugely successful on github because the baseline
expectation should be for there to still be zero projects on github
using kotlinscript.
So I was curious what other people think of those numbers. To me they
look low given the amount of blogposts about how great kotlin itself
is (if assuming such kotlin-hyping bloggers would naturally publish
their projects on github, too).
Re: About Gradle, Kotlin and Inner Fear
Posted by Russel Winder <ru...@winder.org.uk>.
On Mon, 2017-11-27 at 16:58 +0900, Thibault Kruse wrote:
> So, roughly 18 months later, it seems that projects are not exactly
> flocking on hordes to kotlinscript-based gradle builds:
> allinurl: build.gradle -kotlin-dsl -JetBrains-kotlin site:github.com
> 37,300
> allinurl: build.gradle.kts -kotlin-dsl -JetBrains-kotlin
> site:github.com 175
So what's the problem? I am very happy using Kotlin for Gradle builds,
especially in IntelliJ IDEA. Almost none of these are on GitHub. GitHub
is not the totality of the universe of programs. Also there is huge
inertia in any change, I am sure GitHub is also proof of this.
> And if I tried to remove all projects that are directly kotlin
> related, that number would be even lower.
Why is that an issue?
> So it seems both migrating from Groovy to Kotlin as well as starting
> new gradle projects with kotlin instead of groovy is not very popular
> for projects hosted on github so far, unless my google search query
> is
> flawed.
So maybe the problem is GitHub?
--
Russel.
===========================================
Dr Russel Winder t: +44 20 7585 2200
41 Buckmaster Road m: +44 7770 465 077
London SW11 1EN, UK w: www.russel.org.uk