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Posted to general@jakarta.apache.org by Walentiny Carlo <ca...@yahoo.com> on 2001/12/13 11:45:35 UTC
jakarta source code documentation
Hi all
Proposal to help with jakarta documentation:
Juliet is a tool which helps understand, search,
browse, reuse and read Java source code.
If you are interested, I will offer:
1. a free, full version of the final Juliet release
to all jakarta developers with commit privileges;
2. a free, useful but somehow restricted version for
everybody else, to be used for documentation (for
example for offline browsing of sourcecode
downloaded from jakarta.apache.org).
More on Juliet: http://infotectonica.com/juliet/
- fast (instant) searches through huge codebases
- fully hyperlinked source code visualization
- scales to millions of slocs
- understand uses with "better" cross referencing:
http://infotectonica.com/juliet/tour4.html
- integrated class hierarchy and package browser
- no need to build documentation: Juliet works from
sourcecode which need not even compile, and which
can change during use.
Juliet is currently in beta, which means you can
help shape it. It's 95% Java, and the rest won't
take long to port.
The beta is useful and stable, currently used for
example on a 1,5 MSLOCs codebase as well as
on ibm's eclipse source tree.
Looking forward to feedback,
Carlo Walentiny (founder, infotectonica sa)
carlo@infotectonica.com
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Re: jakarta source code documentation
Posted by Walentiny Carlo <ca...@yahoo.com>.
> Actually, isn't that one of the goals of Alexandria?
> Maybe wth your
> expertise you might want to help out there? :)
Yes, I (think) that (java documentation) is one of the
goals of Alexandria. Actually, I first emailed Kevin
Burton (Alexandria project) to tell him about Juliet,
and he suggested I post a message here (among other
things). He also told me that apache probably would
not accept a tool that either was not free, OR did not
have a 100% market penetration (javadoc).
Contributing to Alexandria: I think I cannot make a
bigger contribution than offering a free (beer) and
freely distributable version of Juliet.
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Re: jakarta source code documentation
Posted by "Geir Magnusson Jr." <ge...@optonline.net>.
On 12/14/01 8:13 AM, "Walentiny Carlo" <ca...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> All the developer support tools that apache
>> uses are ones that we can control, modify and
>> adapt to our needs.
>
> Like javadoc? :)
>
>> Juliet looks to be a commercial tool
>> and doesn't really satisfy
>> our needs. Thanks anyway.
>
> A shame (Java cross referencing not needed :().
> Juliet is commercial, but there will be a
> free version.
>
> Thanks for the reply,
>
> carlo
Actually, isn't that one of the goals of Alexandria? Maybe wth your
expertise you might want to help out there? :)
geir
--
Geir Magnusson Jr. geirm@optonline.net
System and Software Consulting
You're going to end up getting pissed at your software
anyway, so you might as well not pay for it. Try Open Source.
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Re: jakarta source code documentation
Posted by Walentiny Carlo <ca...@yahoo.com>.
> All the developer support tools that apache
> uses are ones that we can control, modify and
> adapt to our needs.
Like javadoc? :)
> Juliet looks to be a commercial tool
> and doesn't really satisfy
> our needs. Thanks anyway.
A shame (Java cross referencing not needed :().
Juliet is commercial, but there will be a
free version.
Thanks for the reply,
carlo
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RE: jakarta source code documentation
Posted by Scott Sanders <ss...@nextance.com>.
He's turned over a new leaf ;-)
We will never be abel to compete...
Scott Sanders
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ted Husted [mailto:husted@apache.org]
> Sent: Friday, December 14, 2001 9:38 AM
> To: Jakarta General List
> Subject: Re: jakarta source code documentation
>
>
> Jon Scott Stevens wrote:
> > While this is an excellent offer because your tool looks
> very useful,
> > I think I will personally decline it for the following reasons:
>
> ...
>
> > Thanks!
> >
> > -jon
>
> OK, who are you, and how did you get access to Jon's mailbox?
>
> ;-)
>
> Jon, this is a very excelent and considerate post. Nice work!
>
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Re: jakarta source code documentation
Posted by Ted Husted <hu...@apache.org>.
Jon Scott Stevens wrote:
> While this is an excellent offer because your tool looks very useful, I
> think I will personally decline it for the following reasons:
...
> Thanks!
>
> -jon
OK, who are you, and how did you get access to Jon's mailbox?
;-)
Jon, this is a very excelent and considerate post. Nice work!
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Re: jakarta source code documentation
Posted by Guillaume Rousse <ro...@ccr.jussieu.fr>.
Ainsi parlait Walentiny Carlo :
> Second:
> > ... You are offering free use of your tool to open
>
> source
>
> > developers, but what about the rest of our
>
> community?
>
> > They get to use crippleware?
>
> Is netbeans crippleware, compared to forte?
Your comparaison is not fair: NetBeans is free software, not just a
free-of-charge demo of Forte.
--
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GPG key http://lis.snv.jussieu.fr/~rousse/gpgkey.html
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Re: jakarta source code documentation
Posted by Walentiny Carlo <ca...@yahoo.com>.
Jon,
Thanks for taking the time to write that long and
considerate reply.
First:
It was not my intention to advertise the product
by posting here. In fact I would not have "dared" post
here for fear of it being considered like like that,
had it not been suggested to me by a respected member
of your community. Obviously it was my decision to
post.
Second:
> ... You are offering free use of your tool to open
source
> developers, but what about the rest of our
community?
> They get to use crippleware?
Is netbeans crippleware, compared to forte? The free
version
I was proposing (and for which I offered no details
simply
because they would have to be decided, with your help
had you
been interested) would have made understanding the
jakarta
codebase easier for everybody interested in
understanding it.
Easier than using javadoc plus the code by itself for
example.
Third:
>
> Free Feedback: Your offer for us to helps give
> you feedback for free
> does not make much sense to me and is personally one
> of my major irks about
> commercial software and is one of the reasons why I
> rarely purchase
> software. Let's see, I purchase your software, find
> the bugs in it and then
> tell you about them so that you can fix them so that
> I can have the
> privilege of having a piece of software that I
> purchased actually work the
> way that it should have in the first place.
> Something seems wrong with that
> logic. I think you should be paying me. :-)
Well, just cause I like arguing: do you not have
any expectations that non-commercial software works?
If you do, couldn't you apply the same reasoning
to it and come to the conclusion that all software
should be just perfect and everybody be paid to
provide
feedback?
Fourth:
> ... Free Viral Marketing:
Yes, that's the point :) Both to stay alive (your #5),
and
to ensure that a lot of work, which does help java
development
(there is enough feedback to back that up in a
somewhat
less biased way), will not be lost.
> Therefore, my recommendation to you would be to
> advertise and give away your software in places
> where commercial software development is accepted.
> ...
Yes, I take your point. I made a mistake (posting
here).
My apologies, and thanks again for your long reply,
-Carlo
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Re: jakarta source code documentation
Posted by Jon Scott Stevens <jo...@latchkey.com>.
While this is an excellent offer because your tool looks very useful, I
think I will personally decline it for the following reasons:
#1. Contribution: Your offer tries, but does not really bide well with the
open source world. You are offering free use of your tool to open source
developers, but what about the rest of our community? They get to use
crippleware? We seem to understand the value of providing software with the
source code under a non-restrictive license, how about making your
contribution in the same way?
#2. Free Feedback: Your offer for us to helps give you feedback for free
does not make much sense to me and is personally one of my major irks about
commercial software and is one of the reasons why I rarely purchase
software. Let's see, I purchase your software, find the bugs in it and then
tell you about them so that you can fix them so that I can have the
privilege of having a piece of software that I purchased actually work the
way that it should have in the first place. Something seems wrong with that
logic. I think you should be paying me. :-)
#3. Free Advertisement: By posting your generous offer here, I'm sure that
you were able to quickly advertise your software to at least a few thousand
people. If we encourage every software vendor to post here about their 'open
source friendly' offers, then we should probably consider renaming this
mailing list to commercial-ads@jakarta.apache.org.
#4. Free Viral Marketing: If the developers of the ASF were to use your
software in their projects, then that becomes viral marketing for you and
you are able to profit in return for us getting full free copies for
ourselves (but not our users) and free feedback and bug reporting. Both of
which really cost you nothing since distribution of software is free and
easy.
#5. Staying Alive: Your first response to all of this is probably something
along the lines of being a small software developer who is trying to make
money and stay alive. A perfectly respectable goal that I completely
understand and respect. However, attempting to make money off of the good
will of open source developers goes against our founding principles.
Therefore, my recommendation to you would be to advertise and give away your
software in places where commercial software development is accepted (ie:
corporations, conferences, magazines, etc) and not advertise it in open
source forums unless you are going to also give the source code away for
free. If you do choose an open source forum, then it should be one with an
acceptable license as well. For instance, advertising GPL software in an ASF
forum probably won't get you very far.
Thanks!
-jon
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Re: jakarta source code documentation
Posted by Peter Donald <pe...@apache.org>.
Hi,
Thanks for the offer but it is not how we operate here. All the developer
support tools that apache uses are ones that we can control, modify and adapt
to our needs. Juliet looks to be a commercial tool and doesn't really satisfy
our needs. Thanks anyway.
On Thu, 13 Dec 2001 21:45, Walentiny Carlo wrote:
> Hi all
>
> Proposal to help with jakarta documentation:
>
> Juliet is a tool which helps understand, search,
> browse, reuse and read Java source code.
>
> If you are interested, I will offer:
>
> 1. a free, full version of the final Juliet release
> to all jakarta developers with commit privileges;
>
> 2. a free, useful but somehow restricted version for
> everybody else, to be used for documentation (for
> example for offline browsing of sourcecode
> downloaded from jakarta.apache.org).
>
> More on Juliet: http://infotectonica.com/juliet/
>
> - fast (instant) searches through huge codebases
> - fully hyperlinked source code visualization
> - scales to millions of slocs
> - understand uses with "better" cross referencing:
> http://infotectonica.com/juliet/tour4.html
> - integrated class hierarchy and package browser
> - no need to build documentation: Juliet works from
> sourcecode which need not even compile, and which
> can change during use.
>
> Juliet is currently in beta, which means you can
> help shape it. It's 95% Java, and the rest won't
> take long to port.
>
> The beta is useful and stable, currently used for
> example on a 1,5 MSLOCs codebase as well as
> on ibm's eclipse source tree.
>
> Looking forward to feedback,
>
> Carlo Walentiny (founder, infotectonica sa)
> carlo@infotectonica.com
>
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of
> your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com
> or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com
--
Cheers,
Pete
When a stupid man is doing something he's ashamed of, he always
declares that it is his duty.
George Bernard Shaw
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