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Posted to dev@cordova.apache.org by Dan Moore <mo...@yahoo.com> on 2013/11/18 17:10:42 UTC
Re: config.xml discussion, we need to talk
Hi folks,
Did the nomenclature to help users distinguish between cordova cli and the older create scripts ever get nailed down?
Thanks,
Dan
On Monday, October 21, 2013 2:33 PM, Steven Gill <st...@gmail.com> wrote:
+1 to Native Platform Dev vs Web Project Dev
On Mon, Oct 21, 2013 at 1:31 PM, Axel Nennker <ig...@gmail.com> wrote:
> +1
> Although I was about to suggest "single platform development" and "multi
> platform development".
>
> Axel
> Am 21.10.2013 19:36 schrieb "Brian LeRoux" <b...@brian.io>:
>
> > I think we need to be explicit, not talk about legacy or magic. I'd like
> to
> > propose:
> >
> > Native Platform Dev -- Build Cordova apps on the metal. No helpers for
> > moving across platforms.
> > Web Project Dev -- Build web first projects that (mostly) treats native
> > projects as build artifacts.
> >
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Oct 21, 2013 at 8:34 AM, Braden Shepherdson <braden@chromium.org
> > >wrote:
> >
> > > Whoops, forgot my citation:
> > >
> > > [1] http://www.catb.org/jargon/html/magic-story.html
> > >
> > >
> > > On Mon, Oct 21, 2013 at 11:33 AM, Braden Shepherdson <
> > braden@chromium.org
> > > >wrote:
> > >
> > > > "Less Magic" (bin/create, Plugman) and "More Magic" (CLI).[1]
> > > >
> > > > Mike Billau's suggestions look decent to me. How about "classic"
> > instead
> > > > of "legacy"? Removes the "it sucks and will die someday" connotation,
> > > since
> > > > that's not true.
> > > >
> > > > Braden
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Mon, Oct 21, 2013 at 11:25 AM, Mike Billau <mike.billau@gmail.com
> > > >wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> Lets make the name as confusing as possible, to live up to our
> history
> > > >> (callback, phonegap, cordova.) ;)
> > > >>
> > > >> Personally I think that the names should try to describe the
> > difference
> > > >> between the workflows instead of trying to prescribe some type of
> > usage,
> > > >> since there are unknown and developing use cases.
> > > >>
> > > >> To me the main difference between the workflows is that with the
> CLI,
> > > >> things get merged for you automatically, so I'm in favor of
> something
> > > like
> > > >> "CLI/Merges Workflow" and "Non-CLI/Legacy Workflow", and in the very
> > > first
> > > >> sentence of "Non-CLI/Legacy" we say "It's called "Legacy" because it
> > was
> > > >> the pre-3.0 worfklow, not because it is no longer supported."
> > > >>
> > > >> Michal, we created an item to track the doc changes:
> > > >> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/CB-5122 I think the bulk of
> > the
> > > >> workflow discussion can fit into the "Development Paths" section in
> > the
> > > >> main Overview Guide. I'll get started but will continue to monitor
> > this
> > > >> thread.
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> On Mon, Oct 21, 2013 at 10:01 AM, Michal Mocny <mmocny@chromium.org
> >
> > > >> wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >> > (Okay, this thread at high risk of bikeshedding, just going to
> > mention
> > > >> that
> > > >> > ;) But I do think it would be great to settle once and for all.
> > > >> >
> > > >> > I like the distinction Steven/Brian are making: Project flow vs
> > > Platform
> > > >> > flow. I'm not sure that those names are immediately 100% clear
> > (I'll
> > > >> > ponder over it) but I like the focus points.
> > > >> >
> > > >> > I think Ian nails the description: "CLI encourages the "Your
> > cordova
> > > >> web
> > > >> > view *IS* your application" mindset"
> > > >> >
> > > >> > I don't have a big preference one way or the other regarding
> > attaching
> > > >> the
> > > >> > word "legacy" to the Platform Flow. I like that it conveys: "the
> > flow
> > > >> you
> > > >> > are used to" and "there exists a new flow now that you should
> > > evaluate"
> > > >> but
> > > >> > I don't like that it may also convey "this flow is going to be
> > > >> deprecated"
> > > >> > which I don't think is true.
> > > >> >
> > > >> > Whatever we call it, I think its important to signal that Platform
> > > >> workflow
> > > >> > is for supporting "mucking with platform internals" not for
> "single
> > > >> > platform dev". Single platform dev can be done using CLI just as
> > > >> easily.
> > > >> >
> > > >> > Should we create a wiki/doc which explains the flow and lists the
> > > >> > pros/cons?
> > > >> >
> > > >> >
> > > >> > On Mon, Oct 21, 2013 at 9:20 AM, Ian Clelland <
> iclelland@google.com
> > >
> > > >> > wrote:
> > > >> >
> > > >> > > Legacy, though, sounds like it's something that we're actively
> > > moving
> > > >> > away
> > > >> > > from; something that we support only grudgingly, and which we
> > might
> > > >> > > deprecate at the drop of a hat.
> > > >> > > The platform-only workflow supports legitimate use-cases which
> CLI
> > > >> > probably
> > > >> > > will never cover -- things like embedding a cordova web view
> > inside
> > > >> of a
> > > >> > > larger platform-native project.
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > The major difference I see with CLI is that it encourages the
> > "Your
> > > >> > cordova
> > > >> > > web view *IS* your application" mindset. (And if that's true,
> then
> > > why
> > > >> > > wouldn't you aim for cross-platform development?) The pre-CLI
> > > >> workflow is
> > > >> > > still the way to build all other sorts of applications.
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > Ian
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > On Fri, Oct 18, 2013 at 11:30 PM, purplecabbage <
> > > >> purplecabbage@gmail.com
> > > >> > > >wrote:
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > > I like merge-flow and legacy-flow
> > > >> > > >
> > > >> > > > Sent from my iPhone
> > > >> > > >
> > > >> > > > > On Oct 18, 2013, at 6:59 PM, Carlos Santana <
> > > csantana23@gmail.com
> > > >> >
> > > >> > > > wrote:
> > > >> > > > >
> > > >> > > > > Cross Platform -> use Merge Flow
> > > >> > > > >
> > > >> > > > > Single Platform -> use Legacy Flow
> > > >> > > > >
> > > >> > > > > Using "Multi Platform or Cross Platform" is also fine
> > > >> > > > >
> > > >> > > > > Using "Flow or Mode" is also fine
> > > >> > > > >
> > > >> > > > >
> > > >> > > > >> On Friday, October 18, 2013, Brian LeRoux wrote:
> > > >> > > > >>
> > > >> > > > >> Ya, to me the difference is that one workflow embraces the
> > > native
> > > >> > > > platform
> > > >> > > > >> and tooling (plugman and bin/scripts) while the other
> focuses
> > > on
> > > >> > > > building a
> > > >> > > > >> web project (cli/merges/etc).
> > > >> > > > >>
> > > >> > > > >> As a dev, if I'm ONLY worried about one platform (like a
> > > Cordova
> > > >> > > > >> implementor or many of our community folk) then bin/scripts
> > > >> > suffices.
> > > >> > > As
> > > >> > > > >> soon as I'm concerned with more than one platform the CLI
> > > >> workflows
> > > >> > > kick
> > > >> > > > >> in. That was the use case anyhow.
> > > >> > > > >>
> > > >> > > > >>
> > > >> > > > >> On Fri, Oct 18, 2013 at 3:21 PM, Steven Gill <
> > > >> > stevengill97@gmail.com>
> > > >> > > > >> wrote:
> > > >> > > > >>
> > > >> > > > >>> Brian suggested Project Development (CLI workflow) vs
> > Platform
> > > >> > > > >> Development
> > > >> > > > >>> (bin/scripts)
> > > >> > > > >>>
> > > >> > > > >>>
> > > >> > > > >>> On Fri, Oct 18, 2013 at 3:09 PM, Steven Gill <
> > > >> > stevengill97@gmail.com
> > > >> > > >
> > > >> > > > >>> wrote:
> > > >> > > > >>>
> > > >> > > > >>>> We need more suggestions!
> > > >> > > > >>>>
> > > >> > > > >>>> Anis suggested picking to arbitrary names that don't
> > reflect
> > > >> the
> > > >> > > > >>> workflows
> > > >> > > > >>>> but would be easy to refer to.
> > > >> > > > >>>>
> > > >> > > > >>>>
> > > >> > > > >>>>
> > > >> > > > >>>>
> > > >> > > > >>>> On Fri, Oct 18, 2013 at 12:41 PM, Michal Mocny <
> > > >> > mmocny@chromium.org
> > > >> > > > >>>> wrote:
> > > >> > > > >>>>
> > > >> > > > >>>>> I use the IDE with the CLI and hope to make it better.
> > > >> > > > >>>>>
> > > >> > > > >>>>> In my mind, the old way is for making platform
> > > modifications,
> > > >> and
> > > >> > > the
> > > >> > > > >>> new
> > > >> > > > >>>>> way threads platforms/ as a build artifact.
> > > >> > > > >>>>>
> > > >> > > > >>>>> If you must control the platform code, you sacrifice
> easy
> > > >> > upgrades
> > > >> > > > and
> > > >> > > > >>>>> ease
> > > >> > > > >>>>> of multi-platform development, but gain control.
> > > >> > > > >>>>> If you want to use the CLI, you lose the ability to make
> > > >> > > > modifications
> > > >> > > > >>> to
> > > >> > > > >>>>> directly platform code without worrying about the
> > > >> implications.
> > > >> > > > >>>>>
> > > >> > > > >>>>> -Michal
> > > >> > > > >>>>>
> > > >> > > > >>>>>
> > > >> > > > >>>>> On Fri, Oct 18, 2013 at 3:18 PM, Steven Gill <
> > > >> > > stevengill97@gmail.com
> > > >> > > > >
> > > >> > > > >>>>> wrote:
> > > >> > > > >>>>>
> > > >> > > > >>>>>> I like that better.
> > > >> > > > >>>>>>
> > > >> > > > >>>>>> I know that both methods use the command line, but the
> > > >> > cordova-cli
> > > >> > > > >> has
> > > >> > > > >>>>> cli
> > > >> > > > >>>>>> in its name! We call the tool the cordova-cli so it
> might
> > > be
> > > >> > more
> > > >> > > > >>>>> confusing
> > > >> > > > >>>>>> going away from that and calling it anything else. Not
> > > >> saying we
> > > >> > > > >>>>> shouldn't
> > > >> > > > >>>>>> be open to a name change though just because we called
> > it X
> > > >> > since
> > > >> > > > >> its
> > > >> > > > >>>>>> inception (or am I saying that? :P).
> > > >> > > > >>>>>>
> > > >> > > > >>>>>> When we write the docs about the other workflow
> > > (bin/create,
> > > >> > > > >> plugman),
> > > >> > > > >>>>>> maybe making the IDE an integral part of it would make
> it
> > > >> make
> > > >> > > more
> > > >> > > > >>>>> sense
> > > >> > > > >>>>>> calling that workflow IDE. Just a thought.
> > > >> > > > >>>>>>
> > > >> > > > >>>>>>
> > > >> > > > >>>>>>> On Fri, Oct 18, 2013 at 12:09 PM, Jesse <
> > > >> > purplecabbage@gmail.com
> > > >> > > >
> > > >> > > > >>>>>> wrote:
> > > >> > > > >>>>>>
> > > >> > > > >>>>>>> IDE or cordova-cli ??
> > > >> > > > >>>>>>>
> > > >> > > > >>>>>>> @purplecabbage
> > > >> > > > >>>>>>> risingj.com
> > > >> > > > >>>>>>>
> > > >> > > > >>>>>>>
> > > >> > > > >>>>>>> On Fri, Oct 18, 2013 at 12:02 PM, Steven Gill <
> > > >> > > > >>> stevengill97@gmail.com
> > > >> > > > >>>>>>>> wrote:
> > > >> > > > >>>>>>>
> > > >> > > > >>>>>>>> I think SinplePlatform vs MultiPlatform is misleading
> > > >> because
> > > >> > > > >> you
> > > >> > > > >>>>> can
> > > >> > > > >>>>>> use
> > > >> > > > >>>>>>>> the CLI to do single platform development.
> > > >> > > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >> > > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >> > > > >>>>>>>> On Fri, Oct 18, 2013 at 11:51 AM, Jesse <
> > > >> > > > >> purplecabbage@gmail.com>
> > > >> > > > >>>>>> wrote:
> > > >> > > > >>>>>>>>
> > > >> > > > >>>>>>>>> SinglePlatform vs MultiPlatform makes the most sense
> > to
> > > >> me.
> > > >> > > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > >> > > > >>>>>>>>> SinglePlatform = Focus on a single platform, and use
> > > >> plugman
> > > >> > > > >> and
> > > >> > > > >>>>> the
> > > >> > > > >>>>>>>>> platform scripts directly. Useful when you only have
> > > that
> > > >> > > > >>>>> particular
> > > >> > > > >>>>>>>> device
> > > >> > > > >>>>>>>>> to test on, or only have access to that device's
> > > >> marketplace.
> > > >> > > > >>>>> Also
> > > >> > > > >>>>>>>> useful
> > > >> > > > >>>>>>>>> for platform developers who are focused primarily on
> > the
> > > >> > > > >> native
> > > >> > > > >>>>> code.
> > > >> > > > >>>>>>>>> ( aka DivideAndConquer )
> > > >> > > > >
> > > >> > > > >
> > > >> > > > >
> > > >> > > > > --
> > > >> > > > > Carlos Santana
> > > >> > > > > <cs...@gmail.com>
> > > >> > > >
> > > >> > >
> > > >> >
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
Re: config.xml discussion, we need to talk
Posted by Mike Billau <mi...@gmail.com>.
Mike Sierra made a good point here[1] that throughout the docs it will
probably be better to not explicitly refer to those names and instead use
causual references to "cross-platform" or "platform-centered" workflows and
then link to the Overview section, where these workflows are explicit and
the differences explained. This way if we end up changing the names or
adding more workflows, we only have to change this section.
[1]https://github.com/apache/cordova-docs/pull/140#discussion_r7437249
On Mon, Nov 18, 2013 at 1:28 PM, Michal Mocny <mm...@chromium.org> wrote:
> Closest we came to consensus was:
>
> "Web Project Dev"
> vs
> "Native Platform Dev"
>
> Though I wouldn't say that that was nailed down (just a few +1's here and
> there).
>
> -Michal
>
>
> On Mon, Nov 18, 2013 at 11:10 AM, Dan Moore <mo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > Hi folks,
> >
> > Did the nomenclature to help users distinguish between cordova cli and
> the
> > older create scripts ever get nailed down?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Dan
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Monday, October 21, 2013 2:33 PM, Steven Gill <stevengill97@gmail.com
> >
> > wrote:
> >
> > +1 to Native Platform Dev vs Web Project Dev
> >
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Oct 21, 2013 at 1:31 PM, Axel Nennker <ig...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > +1
> > > Although I was about to suggest "single platform development" and
> "multi
> > > platform development".
> > >
> > > Axel
> > > Am 21.10.2013 19:36 schrieb "Brian LeRoux" <b...@brian.io>:
> > >
> > > > I think we need to be explicit, not talk about legacy or magic. I'd
> > like
> > > to
> > > > propose:
> > > >
> > > > Native Platform Dev -- Build Cordova apps on the metal. No helpers
> for
> > > > moving across platforms.
> > > > Web Project Dev -- Build web first projects that (mostly) treats
> native
> > > > projects as build artifacts.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Mon, Oct 21, 2013 at 8:34 AM, Braden Shepherdson <
> > braden@chromium.org
> > > > >wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Whoops, forgot my citation:
> > > > >
> > > > > [1] http://www.catb.org/jargon/html/magic-story.html
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Mon, Oct 21, 2013 at 11:33 AM, Braden Shepherdson <
> > > > braden@chromium.org
> > > > > >wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > "Less Magic" (bin/create, Plugman) and "More Magic" (CLI).[1]
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Mike Billau's suggestions look decent to me. How about "classic"
> > > > instead
> > > > > > of "legacy"? Removes the "it sucks and will die someday"
> > connotation,
> > > > > since
> > > > > > that's not true.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Braden
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Mon, Oct 21, 2013 at 11:25 AM, Mike Billau <
> > mike.billau@gmail.com
> > > > > >wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >> Lets make the name as confusing as possible, to live up to our
> > > history
> > > > > >> (callback, phonegap, cordova.) ;)
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Personally I think that the names should try to describe the
> > > > difference
> > > > > >> between the workflows instead of trying to prescribe some type
> of
> > > > usage,
> > > > > >> since there are unknown and developing use cases.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> To me the main difference between the workflows is that with the
> > > CLI,
> > > > > >> things get merged for you automatically, so I'm in favor of
> > > something
> > > > > like
> > > > > >> "CLI/Merges Workflow" and "Non-CLI/Legacy Workflow", and in the
> > very
> > > > > first
> > > > > >> sentence of "Non-CLI/Legacy" we say "It's called "Legacy"
> because
> > it
> > > > was
> > > > > >> the pre-3.0 worfklow, not because it is no longer supported."
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Michal, we created an item to track the doc changes:
> > > > > >> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/CB-5122 I think the bulk
> > of
> > > > the
> > > > > >> workflow discussion can fit into the "Development Paths" section
> > in
> > > > the
> > > > > >> main Overview Guide. I'll get started but will continue to
> monitor
> > > > this
> > > > > >> thread.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> On Mon, Oct 21, 2013 at 10:01 AM, Michal Mocny <
> > mmocny@chromium.org
> > > >
> > > > > >> wrote:
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> > (Okay, this thread at high risk of bikeshedding, just going to
> > > > mention
> > > > > >> that
> > > > > >> > ;) But I do think it would be great to settle once and for
> all.
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> > I like the distinction Steven/Brian are making: Project flow
> vs
> > > > > Platform
> > > > > >> > flow. I'm not sure that those names are immediately 100%
> clear
> > > > (I'll
> > > > > >> > ponder over it) but I like the focus points.
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> > I think Ian nails the description: "CLI encourages the "Your
> > > > cordova
> > > > > >> web
> > > > > >> > view *IS* your application" mindset"
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> > I don't have a big preference one way or the other regarding
> > > > attaching
> > > > > >> the
> > > > > >> > word "legacy" to the Platform Flow. I like that it conveys:
> > "the
> > > > flow
> > > > > >> you
> > > > > >> > are used to" and "there exists a new flow now that you should
> > > > > evaluate"
> > > > > >> but
> > > > > >> > I don't like that it may also convey "this flow is going to be
> > > > > >> deprecated"
> > > > > >> > which I don't think is true.
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> > Whatever we call it, I think its important to signal that
> > Platform
> > > > > >> workflow
> > > > > >> > is for supporting "mucking with platform internals" not for
> > > "single
> > > > > >> > platform dev". Single platform dev can be done using CLI just
> > as
> > > > > >> easily.
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> > Should we create a wiki/doc which explains the flow and lists
> > the
> > > > > >> > pros/cons?
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> > On Mon, Oct 21, 2013 at 9:20 AM, Ian Clelland <
> > > iclelland@google.com
> > > > >
> > > > > >> > wrote:
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> > > Legacy, though, sounds like it's something that we're
> actively
> > > > > moving
> > > > > >> > away
> > > > > >> > > from; something that we support only grudgingly, and which
> we
> > > > might
> > > > > >> > > deprecate at the drop of a hat.
> > > > > >> > > The platform-only workflow supports legitimate use-cases
> which
> > > CLI
> > > > > >> > probably
> > > > > >> > > will never cover -- things like embedding a cordova web view
> > > > inside
> > > > > >> of a
> > > > > >> > > larger platform-native project.
> > > > > >> > >
> > > > > >> > > The major difference I see with CLI is that it encourages
> the
> > > > "Your
> > > > > >> > cordova
> > > > > >> > > web view *IS* your application" mindset. (And if that's
> true,
> > > then
> > > > > why
> > > > > >> > > wouldn't you aim for cross-platform development?) The
> pre-CLI
> > > > > >> workflow is
> > > > > >> > > still the way to build all other sorts of applications.
> > > > > >> > >
> > > > > >> > > Ian
> > > > > >> > >
> > > > > >> > >
> > > > > >> > > On Fri, Oct 18, 2013 at 11:30 PM, purplecabbage <
> > > > > >> purplecabbage@gmail.com
> > > > > >> > > >wrote:
> > > > > >> > >
> > > > > >> > > > I like merge-flow and legacy-flow
> > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > >> > > > Sent from my iPhone
> > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > >> > > > > On Oct 18, 2013, at 6:59 PM, Carlos Santana <
> > > > > csantana23@gmail.com
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> > > > wrote:
> > > > > >> > > > >
> > > > > >> > > > > Cross Platform -> use Merge Flow
> > > > > >> > > > >
> > > > > >> > > > > Single Platform -> use Legacy Flow
> > > > > >> > > > >
> > > > > >> > > > > Using "Multi Platform or Cross Platform" is also fine
> > > > > >> > > > >
> > > > > >> > > > > Using "Flow or Mode" is also fine
> > > > > >> > > > >
> > > > > >> > > > >
> > > > > >> > > > >> On Friday, October 18, 2013, Brian LeRoux wrote:
> > > > > >> > > > >>
> > > > > >> > > > >> Ya, to me the difference is that one workflow embraces
> > the
> > > > > native
> > > > > >> > > > platform
> > > > > >> > > > >> and tooling (plugman and bin/scripts) while the other
> > > focuses
> > > > > on
> > > > > >> > > > building a
> > > > > >> > > > >> web project (cli/merges/etc).
> > > > > >> > > > >>
> > > > > >> > > > >> As a dev, if I'm ONLY worried about one platform (like
> a
> > > > > Cordova
> > > > > >> > > > >> implementor or many of our community folk) then
> > bin/scripts
> > > > > >> > suffices.
> > > > > >> > > As
> > > > > >> > > > >> soon as I'm concerned with more than one platform the
> CLI
> > > > > >> workflows
> > > > > >> > > kick
> > > > > >> > > > >> in. That was the use case anyhow.
> > > > > >> > > > >>
> > > > > >> > > > >>
> > > > > >> > > > >> On Fri, Oct 18, 2013 at 3:21 PM, Steven Gill <
> > > > > >> > stevengill97@gmail.com>
> > > > > >> > > > >> wrote:
> > > > > >> > > > >>
> > > > > >> > > > >>> Brian suggested Project Development (CLI workflow) vs
> > > > Platform
> > > > > >> > > > >> Development
> > > > > >> > > > >>> (bin/scripts)
> > > > > >> > > > >>>
> > > > > >> > > > >>>
> > > > > >> > > > >>> On Fri, Oct 18, 2013 at 3:09 PM, Steven Gill <
> > > > > >> > stevengill97@gmail.com
> > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > >> > > > >>> wrote:
> > > > > >> > > > >>>
> > > > > >> > > > >>>> We need more suggestions!
> > > > > >> > > > >>>>
> > > > > >> > > > >>>> Anis suggested picking to arbitrary names that don't
> > > > reflect
> > > > > >> the
> > > > > >> > > > >>> workflows
> > > > > >> > > > >>>> but would be easy to refer to.
> > > > > >> > > > >>>>
> > > > > >> > > > >>>>
> > > > > >> > > > >>>>
> > > > > >> > > > >>>>
> > > > > >> > > > >>>> On Fri, Oct 18, 2013 at 12:41 PM, Michal Mocny <
> > > > > >> > mmocny@chromium.org
> > > > > >> > > > >>>> wrote:
> > > > > >> > > > >>>>
> > > > > >> > > > >>>>> I use the IDE with the CLI and hope to make it
> better.
> > > > > >> > > > >>>>>
> > > > > >> > > > >>>>> In my mind, the old way is for making platform
> > > > > modifications,
> > > > > >> and
> > > > > >> > > the
> > > > > >> > > > >>> new
> > > > > >> > > > >>>>> way threads platforms/ as a build artifact.
> > > > > >> > > > >>>>>
> > > > > >> > > > >>>>> If you must control the platform code, you sacrifice
> > > easy
> > > > > >> > upgrades
> > > > > >> > > > and
> > > > > >> > > > >>>>> ease
> > > > > >> > > > >>>>> of multi-platform development, but gain control.
> > > > > >> > > > >>>>> If you want to use the CLI, you lose the ability to
> > make
> > > > > >> > > > modifications
> > > > > >> > > > >>> to
> > > > > >> > > > >>>>> directly platform code without worrying about the
> > > > > >> implications.
> > > > > >> > > > >>>>>
> > > > > >> > > > >>>>> -Michal
> > > > > >> > > > >>>>>
> > > > > >> > > > >>>>>
> > > > > >> > > > >>>>> On Fri, Oct 18, 2013 at 3:18 PM, Steven Gill <
> > > > > >> > > stevengill97@gmail.com
> > > > > >> > > > >
> > > > > >> > > > >>>>> wrote:
> > > > > >> > > > >>>>>
> > > > > >> > > > >>>>>> I like that better.
> > > > > >> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > > >> > > > >>>>>> I know that both methods use the command line, but
> > the
> > > > > >> > cordova-cli
> > > > > >> > > > >> has
> > > > > >> > > > >>>>> cli
> > > > > >> > > > >>>>>> in its name! We call the tool the cordova-cli so it
> > > might
> > > > > be
> > > > > >> > more
> > > > > >> > > > >>>>> confusing
> > > > > >> > > > >>>>>> going away from that and calling it anything else.
> > Not
> > > > > >> saying we
> > > > > >> > > > >>>>> shouldn't
> > > > > >> > > > >>>>>> be open to a name change though just because we
> > called
> > > > it X
> > > > > >> > since
> > > > > >> > > > >> its
> > > > > >> > > > >>>>>> inception (or am I saying that? :P).
> > > > > >> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > > >> > > > >>>>>> When we write the docs about the other workflow
> > > > > (bin/create,
> > > > > >> > > > >> plugman),
> > > > > >> > > > >>>>>> maybe making the IDE an integral part of it would
> > make
> > > it
> > > > > >> make
> > > > > >> > > more
> > > > > >> > > > >>>>> sense
> > > > > >> > > > >>>>>> calling that workflow IDE. Just a thought.
> > > > > >> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > > >> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > > >> > > > >>>>>>> On Fri, Oct 18, 2013 at 12:09 PM, Jesse <
> > > > > >> > purplecabbage@gmail.com
> > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > >> > > > >>>>>> wrote:
> > > > > >> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > > >> > > > >>>>>>> IDE or cordova-cli ??
> > > > > >> > > > >>>>>>>
> > > > > >> > > > >>>>>>> @purplecabbage
> > > > > >> > > > >>>>>>> risingj.com
> > > > > >> > > > >>>>>>>
> > > > > >> > > > >>>>>>>
> > > > > >> > > > >>>>>>> On Fri, Oct 18, 2013 at 12:02 PM, Steven Gill <
> > > > > >> > > > >>> stevengill97@gmail.com
> > > > > >> > > > >>>>>>>> wrote:
> > > > > >> > > > >>>>>>>
> > > > > >> > > > >>>>>>>> I think SinplePlatform vs MultiPlatform is
> > misleading
> > > > > >> because
> > > > > >> > > > >> you
> > > > > >> > > > >>>>> can
> > > > > >> > > > >>>>>> use
> > > > > >> > > > >>>>>>>> the CLI to do single platform development.
> > > > > >> > > > >>>>>>>>
> > > > > >> > > > >>>>>>>>
> > > > > >> > > > >>>>>>>> On Fri, Oct 18, 2013 at 11:51 AM, Jesse <
> > > > > >> > > > >> purplecabbage@gmail.com>
> > > > > >> > > > >>>>>> wrote:
> > > > > >> > > > >>>>>>>>
> > > > > >> > > > >>>>>>>>> SinglePlatform vs MultiPlatform makes the most
> > sense
> > > > to
> > > > > >> me.
> > > > > >> > > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > > > >> > > > >>>>>>>>> SinglePlatform = Focus on a single platform, and
> > use
> > > > > >> plugman
> > > > > >> > > > >> and
> > > > > >> > > > >>>>> the
> > > > > >> > > > >>>>>>>>> platform scripts directly. Useful when you only
> > have
> > > > > that
> > > > > >> > > > >>>>> particular
> > > > > >> > > > >>>>>>>> device
> > > > > >> > > > >>>>>>>>> to test on, or only have access to that device's
> > > > > >> marketplace.
> > > > > >> > > > >>>>> Also
> > > > > >> > > > >>>>>>>> useful
> > > > > >> > > > >>>>>>>>> for platform developers who are focused
> primarily
> > on
> > > > the
> > > > > >> > > > >> native
> > > > > >> > > > >>>>> code.
> > > > > >> > > > >>>>>>>>> ( aka DivideAndConquer )
> > > > > >> > > > >
> > > > > >> > > > >
> > > > > >> > > > >
> > > > > >> > > > > --
> > > > > >> > > > > Carlos Santana
> > > > > >> > > > > <cs...@gmail.com>
> > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > >> > >
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
Re: config.xml discussion, we need to talk
Posted by Michal Mocny <mm...@chromium.org>.
Closest we came to consensus was:
"Web Project Dev"
vs
"Native Platform Dev"
Though I wouldn't say that that was nailed down (just a few +1's here and
there).
-Michal
On Mon, Nov 18, 2013 at 11:10 AM, Dan Moore <mo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Hi folks,
>
> Did the nomenclature to help users distinguish between cordova cli and the
> older create scripts ever get nailed down?
>
> Thanks,
> Dan
>
>
>
>
>
> On Monday, October 21, 2013 2:33 PM, Steven Gill <st...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> +1 to Native Platform Dev vs Web Project Dev
>
>
>
> On Mon, Oct 21, 2013 at 1:31 PM, Axel Nennker <ig...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > +1
> > Although I was about to suggest "single platform development" and "multi
> > platform development".
> >
> > Axel
> > Am 21.10.2013 19:36 schrieb "Brian LeRoux" <b...@brian.io>:
> >
> > > I think we need to be explicit, not talk about legacy or magic. I'd
> like
> > to
> > > propose:
> > >
> > > Native Platform Dev -- Build Cordova apps on the metal. No helpers for
> > > moving across platforms.
> > > Web Project Dev -- Build web first projects that (mostly) treats native
> > > projects as build artifacts.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Mon, Oct 21, 2013 at 8:34 AM, Braden Shepherdson <
> braden@chromium.org
> > > >wrote:
> > >
> > > > Whoops, forgot my citation:
> > > >
> > > > [1] http://www.catb.org/jargon/html/magic-story.html
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Mon, Oct 21, 2013 at 11:33 AM, Braden Shepherdson <
> > > braden@chromium.org
> > > > >wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > "Less Magic" (bin/create, Plugman) and "More Magic" (CLI).[1]
> > > > >
> > > > > Mike Billau's suggestions look decent to me. How about "classic"
> > > instead
> > > > > of "legacy"? Removes the "it sucks and will die someday"
> connotation,
> > > > since
> > > > > that's not true.
> > > > >
> > > > > Braden
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Mon, Oct 21, 2013 at 11:25 AM, Mike Billau <
> mike.billau@gmail.com
> > > > >wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >> Lets make the name as confusing as possible, to live up to our
> > history
> > > > >> (callback, phonegap, cordova.) ;)
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Personally I think that the names should try to describe the
> > > difference
> > > > >> between the workflows instead of trying to prescribe some type of
> > > usage,
> > > > >> since there are unknown and developing use cases.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> To me the main difference between the workflows is that with the
> > CLI,
> > > > >> things get merged for you automatically, so I'm in favor of
> > something
> > > > like
> > > > >> "CLI/Merges Workflow" and "Non-CLI/Legacy Workflow", and in the
> very
> > > > first
> > > > >> sentence of "Non-CLI/Legacy" we say "It's called "Legacy" because
> it
> > > was
> > > > >> the pre-3.0 worfklow, not because it is no longer supported."
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Michal, we created an item to track the doc changes:
> > > > >> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/CB-5122 I think the bulk
> of
> > > the
> > > > >> workflow discussion can fit into the "Development Paths" section
> in
> > > the
> > > > >> main Overview Guide. I'll get started but will continue to monitor
> > > this
> > > > >> thread.
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >> On Mon, Oct 21, 2013 at 10:01 AM, Michal Mocny <
> mmocny@chromium.org
> > >
> > > > >> wrote:
> > > > >>
> > > > >> > (Okay, this thread at high risk of bikeshedding, just going to
> > > mention
> > > > >> that
> > > > >> > ;) But I do think it would be great to settle once and for all.
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > I like the distinction Steven/Brian are making: Project flow vs
> > > > Platform
> > > > >> > flow. I'm not sure that those names are immediately 100% clear
> > > (I'll
> > > > >> > ponder over it) but I like the focus points.
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > I think Ian nails the description: "CLI encourages the "Your
> > > cordova
> > > > >> web
> > > > >> > view *IS* your application" mindset"
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > I don't have a big preference one way or the other regarding
> > > attaching
> > > > >> the
> > > > >> > word "legacy" to the Platform Flow. I like that it conveys:
> "the
> > > flow
> > > > >> you
> > > > >> > are used to" and "there exists a new flow now that you should
> > > > evaluate"
> > > > >> but
> > > > >> > I don't like that it may also convey "this flow is going to be
> > > > >> deprecated"
> > > > >> > which I don't think is true.
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > Whatever we call it, I think its important to signal that
> Platform
> > > > >> workflow
> > > > >> > is for supporting "mucking with platform internals" not for
> > "single
> > > > >> > platform dev". Single platform dev can be done using CLI just
> as
> > > > >> easily.
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > Should we create a wiki/doc which explains the flow and lists
> the
> > > > >> > pros/cons?
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > On Mon, Oct 21, 2013 at 9:20 AM, Ian Clelland <
> > iclelland@google.com
> > > >
> > > > >> > wrote:
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > > Legacy, though, sounds like it's something that we're actively
> > > > moving
> > > > >> > away
> > > > >> > > from; something that we support only grudgingly, and which we
> > > might
> > > > >> > > deprecate at the drop of a hat.
> > > > >> > > The platform-only workflow supports legitimate use-cases which
> > CLI
> > > > >> > probably
> > > > >> > > will never cover -- things like embedding a cordova web view
> > > inside
> > > > >> of a
> > > > >> > > larger platform-native project.
> > > > >> > >
> > > > >> > > The major difference I see with CLI is that it encourages the
> > > "Your
> > > > >> > cordova
> > > > >> > > web view *IS* your application" mindset. (And if that's true,
> > then
> > > > why
> > > > >> > > wouldn't you aim for cross-platform development?) The pre-CLI
> > > > >> workflow is
> > > > >> > > still the way to build all other sorts of applications.
> > > > >> > >
> > > > >> > > Ian
> > > > >> > >
> > > > >> > >
> > > > >> > > On Fri, Oct 18, 2013 at 11:30 PM, purplecabbage <
> > > > >> purplecabbage@gmail.com
> > > > >> > > >wrote:
> > > > >> > >
> > > > >> > > > I like merge-flow and legacy-flow
> > > > >> > > >
> > > > >> > > > Sent from my iPhone
> > > > >> > > >
> > > > >> > > > > On Oct 18, 2013, at 6:59 PM, Carlos Santana <
> > > > csantana23@gmail.com
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > > > wrote:
> > > > >> > > > >
> > > > >> > > > > Cross Platform -> use Merge Flow
> > > > >> > > > >
> > > > >> > > > > Single Platform -> use Legacy Flow
> > > > >> > > > >
> > > > >> > > > > Using "Multi Platform or Cross Platform" is also fine
> > > > >> > > > >
> > > > >> > > > > Using "Flow or Mode" is also fine
> > > > >> > > > >
> > > > >> > > > >
> > > > >> > > > >> On Friday, October 18, 2013, Brian LeRoux wrote:
> > > > >> > > > >>
> > > > >> > > > >> Ya, to me the difference is that one workflow embraces
> the
> > > > native
> > > > >> > > > platform
> > > > >> > > > >> and tooling (plugman and bin/scripts) while the other
> > focuses
> > > > on
> > > > >> > > > building a
> > > > >> > > > >> web project (cli/merges/etc).
> > > > >> > > > >>
> > > > >> > > > >> As a dev, if I'm ONLY worried about one platform (like a
> > > > Cordova
> > > > >> > > > >> implementor or many of our community folk) then
> bin/scripts
> > > > >> > suffices.
> > > > >> > > As
> > > > >> > > > >> soon as I'm concerned with more than one platform the CLI
> > > > >> workflows
> > > > >> > > kick
> > > > >> > > > >> in. That was the use case anyhow.
> > > > >> > > > >>
> > > > >> > > > >>
> > > > >> > > > >> On Fri, Oct 18, 2013 at 3:21 PM, Steven Gill <
> > > > >> > stevengill97@gmail.com>
> > > > >> > > > >> wrote:
> > > > >> > > > >>
> > > > >> > > > >>> Brian suggested Project Development (CLI workflow) vs
> > > Platform
> > > > >> > > > >> Development
> > > > >> > > > >>> (bin/scripts)
> > > > >> > > > >>>
> > > > >> > > > >>>
> > > > >> > > > >>> On Fri, Oct 18, 2013 at 3:09 PM, Steven Gill <
> > > > >> > stevengill97@gmail.com
> > > > >> > > >
> > > > >> > > > >>> wrote:
> > > > >> > > > >>>
> > > > >> > > > >>>> We need more suggestions!
> > > > >> > > > >>>>
> > > > >> > > > >>>> Anis suggested picking to arbitrary names that don't
> > > reflect
> > > > >> the
> > > > >> > > > >>> workflows
> > > > >> > > > >>>> but would be easy to refer to.
> > > > >> > > > >>>>
> > > > >> > > > >>>>
> > > > >> > > > >>>>
> > > > >> > > > >>>>
> > > > >> > > > >>>> On Fri, Oct 18, 2013 at 12:41 PM, Michal Mocny <
> > > > >> > mmocny@chromium.org
> > > > >> > > > >>>> wrote:
> > > > >> > > > >>>>
> > > > >> > > > >>>>> I use the IDE with the CLI and hope to make it better.
> > > > >> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >> > > > >>>>> In my mind, the old way is for making platform
> > > > modifications,
> > > > >> and
> > > > >> > > the
> > > > >> > > > >>> new
> > > > >> > > > >>>>> way threads platforms/ as a build artifact.
> > > > >> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >> > > > >>>>> If you must control the platform code, you sacrifice
> > easy
> > > > >> > upgrades
> > > > >> > > > and
> > > > >> > > > >>>>> ease
> > > > >> > > > >>>>> of multi-platform development, but gain control.
> > > > >> > > > >>>>> If you want to use the CLI, you lose the ability to
> make
> > > > >> > > > modifications
> > > > >> > > > >>> to
> > > > >> > > > >>>>> directly platform code without worrying about the
> > > > >> implications.
> > > > >> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >> > > > >>>>> -Michal
> > > > >> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >> > > > >>>>> On Fri, Oct 18, 2013 at 3:18 PM, Steven Gill <
> > > > >> > > stevengill97@gmail.com
> > > > >> > > > >
> > > > >> > > > >>>>> wrote:
> > > > >> > > > >>>>>
> > > > >> > > > >>>>>> I like that better.
> > > > >> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >> > > > >>>>>> I know that both methods use the command line, but
> the
> > > > >> > cordova-cli
> > > > >> > > > >> has
> > > > >> > > > >>>>> cli
> > > > >> > > > >>>>>> in its name! We call the tool the cordova-cli so it
> > might
> > > > be
> > > > >> > more
> > > > >> > > > >>>>> confusing
> > > > >> > > > >>>>>> going away from that and calling it anything else.
> Not
> > > > >> saying we
> > > > >> > > > >>>>> shouldn't
> > > > >> > > > >>>>>> be open to a name change though just because we
> called
> > > it X
> > > > >> > since
> > > > >> > > > >> its
> > > > >> > > > >>>>>> inception (or am I saying that? :P).
> > > > >> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >> > > > >>>>>> When we write the docs about the other workflow
> > > > (bin/create,
> > > > >> > > > >> plugman),
> > > > >> > > > >>>>>> maybe making the IDE an integral part of it would
> make
> > it
> > > > >> make
> > > > >> > > more
> > > > >> > > > >>>>> sense
> > > > >> > > > >>>>>> calling that workflow IDE. Just a thought.
> > > > >> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >> > > > >>>>>>> On Fri, Oct 18, 2013 at 12:09 PM, Jesse <
> > > > >> > purplecabbage@gmail.com
> > > > >> > > >
> > > > >> > > > >>>>>> wrote:
> > > > >> > > > >>>>>>
> > > > >> > > > >>>>>>> IDE or cordova-cli ??
> > > > >> > > > >>>>>>>
> > > > >> > > > >>>>>>> @purplecabbage
> > > > >> > > > >>>>>>> risingj.com
> > > > >> > > > >>>>>>>
> > > > >> > > > >>>>>>>
> > > > >> > > > >>>>>>> On Fri, Oct 18, 2013 at 12:02 PM, Steven Gill <
> > > > >> > > > >>> stevengill97@gmail.com
> > > > >> > > > >>>>>>>> wrote:
> > > > >> > > > >>>>>>>
> > > > >> > > > >>>>>>>> I think SinplePlatform vs MultiPlatform is
> misleading
> > > > >> because
> > > > >> > > > >> you
> > > > >> > > > >>>>> can
> > > > >> > > > >>>>>> use
> > > > >> > > > >>>>>>>> the CLI to do single platform development.
> > > > >> > > > >>>>>>>>
> > > > >> > > > >>>>>>>>
> > > > >> > > > >>>>>>>> On Fri, Oct 18, 2013 at 11:51 AM, Jesse <
> > > > >> > > > >> purplecabbage@gmail.com>
> > > > >> > > > >>>>>> wrote:
> > > > >> > > > >>>>>>>>
> > > > >> > > > >>>>>>>>> SinglePlatform vs MultiPlatform makes the most
> sense
> > > to
> > > > >> me.
> > > > >> > > > >>>>>>>>>
> > > > >> > > > >>>>>>>>> SinglePlatform = Focus on a single platform, and
> use
> > > > >> plugman
> > > > >> > > > >> and
> > > > >> > > > >>>>> the
> > > > >> > > > >>>>>>>>> platform scripts directly. Useful when you only
> have
> > > > that
> > > > >> > > > >>>>> particular
> > > > >> > > > >>>>>>>> device
> > > > >> > > > >>>>>>>>> to test on, or only have access to that device's
> > > > >> marketplace.
> > > > >> > > > >>>>> Also
> > > > >> > > > >>>>>>>> useful
> > > > >> > > > >>>>>>>>> for platform developers who are focused primarily
> on
> > > the
> > > > >> > > > >> native
> > > > >> > > > >>>>> code.
> > > > >> > > > >>>>>>>>> ( aka DivideAndConquer )
> > > > >> > > > >
> > > > >> > > > >
> > > > >> > > > >
> > > > >> > > > > --
> > > > >> > > > > Carlos Santana
> > > > >> > > > > <cs...@gmail.com>
> > > > >> > > >
> > > > >> > >
> > > > >> >
> > > > >>
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>