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Posted to netcat@netbeans.apache.org by Geertjan Wielenga <ge...@googlemail.com.INVALID> on 2018/11/13 13:19:43 UTC
[DISCUSS] Apache NetBeans roadmap updates
Hi all,
We've completed the NetCAT process (on the functioning of the convenience
binary of Apache NetBeans 10) and the PPMC vote (on the sources of Apache
NetBeans 10).
Right now, the IPMC (the incubator project management committee) is voting
on the sources of Apache NetBeans 10, since Apache NetBeans is in the
Apache Incubator. (We're going to be voting to get out of the Apache
Incubator very soon, with support from our mentors, since they're happy
with how we're working as a community and consider us to be ready to be a
top level Apache project.)
So, what's next? After we release Apache NetBeans 10, we'll start working
on the next release. Consensus on the dev mailing list has formed around
quarterly releases. In the NetCAT process, we found that there was quite
some time pressure to get things done and maybe we should take more time
and thereby be able to provide more quality.
As a result, here's a proposal to do two major releases next year, in line
with JDK 12 and 13 in March and September, with two optional minor releases
in between (e.g., a bug fix release could be great). Of course, Apache
NetBeans does not serve the Java community only, though those two months of
March and September are fairly spaced anyway and potentially could allow us
to provide bundles with those JDKs if and when that were to be possible.
https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Apache+NetBeans+Release+Roadmap
There are several significant bugs that we need to nail down and resolve,
we can include them in the upcoming releases or distribute them via
plugins. We're I'm sure all very aware of several problems, as well as
features that need to be added -- we need everyone to be proactive in
pinning down bugs and in providing code contributions for missing features.
Comments welcome, and many thanks for all the hard and enthusiastic work
done so far.
Gj
Re: [DISCUSS] Apache NetBeans roadmap updates
Posted by Neil C Smith <ne...@apache.org>.
On Tue, 13 Nov 2018 at 22:17, Christian Lenz <ch...@gmx.net> wrote:
> Maybe reducing the NetCat process or changing it?
OK, so in the interests of [DISCUSS] :-) I think Chris is right here.
I wasn't able to take part in NetCAT for NB10, but did for NB9, and
that process probably does need to adapt. We had a conversation a
while ago about quarterly releases time-based releases, but are we a
little in limbo between what used to happen and what should happen
now?
I'm not sure "quality" is the most useful thing to consider here, in
the sense that anyone who likes Release Early, Release Often is going
to give you loads of "evidence" that that leads to better "quality".
:-) On the other hand, our capacity is important. I just wonder
whether we should be looking at other projects that are doing this
successfully and what their processes are?
A couple of things based on things I've seen elsewhere that might be
worth considering if we stick with this release model -
* Fix the feature freeze / branch dates for the next 4 releases now.
Maybe 4 weeks after each release. Keep master stable, and branch then
- anything not ready for master is not a feature for the next release.
* Do a voted-on, public early-access release of the branch maybe 2
weeks after that? At the moment the NetCAT binaries are not meant to
be distributed outside dev@ and netcat@, but we could make them
public, encourage early adopters to test and report alongside any
NetCAT process.
Best wishes,
Neil
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Re: [DISCUSS] Apache NetBeans roadmap updates
Posted by Neil C Smith <ne...@apache.org>.
On Tue, 13 Nov 2018 at 22:17, Christian Lenz <ch...@gmx.net> wrote:
> Maybe reducing the NetCat process or changing it?
OK, so in the interests of [DISCUSS] :-) I think Chris is right here.
I wasn't able to take part in NetCAT for NB10, but did for NB9, and
that process probably does need to adapt. We had a conversation a
while ago about quarterly releases time-based releases, but are we a
little in limbo between what used to happen and what should happen
now?
I'm not sure "quality" is the most useful thing to consider here, in
the sense that anyone who likes Release Early, Release Often is going
to give you loads of "evidence" that that leads to better "quality".
:-) On the other hand, our capacity is important. I just wonder
whether we should be looking at other projects that are doing this
successfully and what their processes are?
A couple of things based on things I've seen elsewhere that might be
worth considering if we stick with this release model -
* Fix the feature freeze / branch dates for the next 4 releases now.
Maybe 4 weeks after each release. Keep master stable, and branch then
- anything not ready for master is not a feature for the next release.
* Do a voted-on, public early-access release of the branch maybe 2
weeks after that? At the moment the NetCAT binaries are not meant to
be distributed outside dev@ and netcat@, but we could make them
public, encourage early adopters to test and report alongside any
NetCAT process.
Best wishes,
Neil
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Re: [DISCUSS] Apache NetBeans roadmap updates
Posted by Luca Mambretti <lu...@bizeta.net>.
I'm also in favor of 2+2 releases.
For me it would also make sense to have only 2 major releases and deliver the patch release fixes with the current update system, but I see no issue in delivering 2 patch releases also.
My 2 cents.
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Re: [DISCUSS] Apache NetBeans roadmap updates
Posted by Luca Mambretti <lu...@bizeta.net>.
I'm also in favor of 2+2 releases.
For me it would also make sense to have only 2 major releases and deliver the patch release fixes with the current update system, but I see no issue in delivering 2 patch releases also.
My 2 cents.
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Sv: [DISCUSS] Apache NetBeans roadmap updates
Posted by Bo Andersen <bo...@outlook.com>.
How is it with PHP, is it a plugin which can be updated when new versions are released e.g. PHP 7.4, or do we need to wait until the next major release of Netbeans to get support for new versions?
________________________________
Fra: Peter Hull <pe...@gmail.com>
Sendt: 15. november 2018 09:06
Til: dev.ataur.rahman@gmail.com
Cc: neilcsmith@apache.org; jiri.kovalsky@oracle.com; NetCAT team; NetBeans Mailing List; dev@netbeans.apache.org
Emne: Re: [DISCUSS] Apache NetBeans roadmap updates
The 2 + 2 option makes sense to me. I'd be interested in hearing
people's thoughts about how this lines up with JDK releases:
* Is it better to do the NB testing after the general availability of
the JDK, or aim to have them released about the same time?
* What versions of JDK does Netbeans need to support, in terms of
developing/building NB itself, running NB and developing Java
applications using NB. (since there are alternatives to Oracle JDK I
suppose we don't need to be influenced by Oracle's support scheme)
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AW: [DISCUSS] Apache NetBeans roadmap updates
Posted by Christian Lenz <ch...@gmx.net>.
I don’t know whether this Topic came up already, let me know and we can Forget About it but what About to adding public layers to that APIs to not Change them as much as possible? I mean there needs some refactoring for sure, but we can leave them as they are and adding public layer for the outside. Yes someone has to do it, Nothing to say more here, but this could be a good compromise of leaving stuff as it is and adding public layers.
Cheers
Chris
Von: Jan Lahoda
Gesendet: Samstag, 17. November 2018 20:05
An: dev@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
Betreff: Re: [DISCUSS] Apache NetBeans roadmap updates
On Sat, Nov 17, 2018 at 7:45 AM Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > There should be no barriers in implementing functionality as plugins.
>
> Everything about programming and API design is making barriers.
>
> Although, if you think about it there are no true barriers, you can
> use reflection to hack into almost every corner of NetBeans.
>
> But what you would ideally want is for a neat API that provides you
> all these hooks, so the plugin author does little work and NetBeans
> takes the burden of creating (and maintaining!) this open API.
>
> So, it's a false problem.
>
> The actual problem has always been the same: maintaining quality and
> backwards compatibility implies being intentional about the things we
> support and the things we don't. There is nothing stopping people
> suggesting API improvements and making PRs, but we can't just make
> everything public and call it a day. Because then the next release
>
+1. I don't think there's anything stopping interested folks in creating
and proposing (public) APIs. But someone needs to step forward and do the
work.
Jan
comes and all the existing plugins stop working (or... we can't evolve
> anymore since we commit to such a big public API that we painted
> ourselves in a corner).
>
> The idea of providing experimental features as plugins is cool but
> somebody will have to do the work for all the plumbing. Those
> experimental features won't just become new modules into core, they
> will just get absorbed into the existing codebase when they are fully
> baked. Nothing preventing this to happen even right now, there just is
> no such magical generic infrastructure for it to happen.
>
> > How is it with PHP, is it a plugin which can be updated when new
> versions are released e.g. PHP 7.4, or do we need to wait until the next
> major release of Netbeans to get support for new versions?
>
> Worse case scenario we are looking at a 3-6 months delay, correct?
> Although the problem won't be about the release date, it will be about
> making sure somebody actually implements the proper support for the
> next PHP dot release. Assuming we are proactive about that, I don't
> see why we wouldn't have an out-of-band release specifically to
> include our improved PHP stuff.
>
> These things are not set in stone.
>
> --emi
> On Fri, Nov 16, 2018 at 5:00 PM Ondro Mihályi <on...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > I fully agree. There should be no barriers in implementing functionality
> as
> > plugins. Before every NB release, the community could vote on plugins to
> > include in NB core to add their functionality into core. That would
> still
> > allow updating core plugins to a newer version without waiting for
> another
> > NB release.
> >
> > Dňa št 15. 11. 2018, 11:39 Christian Lenz <ch...@gmx.net>
> > napísal(a):
> >
> > > Hey,
> > >
> > > My 2 cents here again. First I want to know, what you think, how the
> minor
> > > Releases should look like. If they also contains Features, I’m fine
> with
> > > that two.
> > >
> > > I will be more fine to have only 2 releases, if we can have more public
> > > apis for other languages except Java. This is, IMHO a big Problem that
> a
> > > lot of stuff, can’t be done with 3rd-party Plugins for HTML, PHP, JS,
> CSS,
> > > etc. because of missing public APIs. If we have more public APIs, we
> can
> > > have more Features inside of NetBeans with only 3rd-party Plugins.
> > >
> > > We can’t adding hints and Code fixes for JS, CSS/LESS/SCSS, PHP or HTML
> > > which could make the work easier. And this is only one Little example.
> We
> > > can’t adding embedding languages to the mentioned languages.
> > >
> > > NetBeans first was build only for Java, this is why the Tokens of Java
> are
> > > public, the hints and fixes you can add with 3rd-party Plugins. So
> this is
> > > why you can add a lot of stuff to the Java Editor with 3rd-party
> Plugins.
> > > If we are open-source, we should open minded too to let the Developers
> > > decide, whether I want to add my feature into the core and wait 6 month
> > > after it is relased to the next Version or to add it via a Plugin and
> can
> > > bring it up today or tomorrow.
> > >
> > >
> > > Cheers
> > >
> > > Chris
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Von: Peter Hull
> > > Gesendet: Donnerstag, 15. November 2018 09:06
> > > An: dev.ataur.rahman@gmail.com
> > > Cc: neilcsmith@apache.org; jiri.kovalsky@oracle.com; NetCAT team;
> > > NetBeans Mailing List; dev@netbeans.apache.org
> > > Betreff: Re: [DISCUSS] Apache NetBeans roadmap updates
> > >
> > > The 2 + 2 option makes sense to me. I'd be interested in hearing
> > > people's thoughts about how this lines up with JDK releases:
> > > * Is it better to do the NB testing after the general availability of
> > > the JDK, or aim to have them released about the same time?
> > > * What versions of JDK does Netbeans need to support, in terms of
> > > developing/building NB itself, running NB and developing Java
> > > applications using NB. (since there are alternatives to Oracle JDK I
> > > suppose we don't need to be influenced by Oracle's support scheme)
> > >
> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> > > For additional commands, e-mail:
> dev-help@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> > >
> > > For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> > > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
>
> For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
>
>
>
>
Re: [DISCUSS] Apache NetBeans roadmap updates
Posted by Jan Lahoda <la...@gmail.com>.
On Sat, Nov 17, 2018 at 7:45 AM Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > There should be no barriers in implementing functionality as plugins.
>
> Everything about programming and API design is making barriers.
>
> Although, if you think about it there are no true barriers, you can
> use reflection to hack into almost every corner of NetBeans.
>
> But what you would ideally want is for a neat API that provides you
> all these hooks, so the plugin author does little work and NetBeans
> takes the burden of creating (and maintaining!) this open API.
>
> So, it's a false problem.
>
> The actual problem has always been the same: maintaining quality and
> backwards compatibility implies being intentional about the things we
> support and the things we don't. There is nothing stopping people
> suggesting API improvements and making PRs, but we can't just make
> everything public and call it a day. Because then the next release
>
+1. I don't think there's anything stopping interested folks in creating
and proposing (public) APIs. But someone needs to step forward and do the
work.
Jan
comes and all the existing plugins stop working (or... we can't evolve
> anymore since we commit to such a big public API that we painted
> ourselves in a corner).
>
> The idea of providing experimental features as plugins is cool but
> somebody will have to do the work for all the plumbing. Those
> experimental features won't just become new modules into core, they
> will just get absorbed into the existing codebase when they are fully
> baked. Nothing preventing this to happen even right now, there just is
> no such magical generic infrastructure for it to happen.
>
> > How is it with PHP, is it a plugin which can be updated when new
> versions are released e.g. PHP 7.4, or do we need to wait until the next
> major release of Netbeans to get support for new versions?
>
> Worse case scenario we are looking at a 3-6 months delay, correct?
> Although the problem won't be about the release date, it will be about
> making sure somebody actually implements the proper support for the
> next PHP dot release. Assuming we are proactive about that, I don't
> see why we wouldn't have an out-of-band release specifically to
> include our improved PHP stuff.
>
> These things are not set in stone.
>
> --emi
> On Fri, Nov 16, 2018 at 5:00 PM Ondro Mihályi <on...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > I fully agree. There should be no barriers in implementing functionality
> as
> > plugins. Before every NB release, the community could vote on plugins to
> > include in NB core to add their functionality into core. That would
> still
> > allow updating core plugins to a newer version without waiting for
> another
> > NB release.
> >
> > Dňa št 15. 11. 2018, 11:39 Christian Lenz <ch...@gmx.net>
> > napísal(a):
> >
> > > Hey,
> > >
> > > My 2 cents here again. First I want to know, what you think, how the
> minor
> > > Releases should look like. If they also contains Features, I’m fine
> with
> > > that two.
> > >
> > > I will be more fine to have only 2 releases, if we can have more public
> > > apis for other languages except Java. This is, IMHO a big Problem that
> a
> > > lot of stuff, can’t be done with 3rd-party Plugins for HTML, PHP, JS,
> CSS,
> > > etc. because of missing public APIs. If we have more public APIs, we
> can
> > > have more Features inside of NetBeans with only 3rd-party Plugins.
> > >
> > > We can’t adding hints and Code fixes for JS, CSS/LESS/SCSS, PHP or HTML
> > > which could make the work easier. And this is only one Little example.
> We
> > > can’t adding embedding languages to the mentioned languages.
> > >
> > > NetBeans first was build only for Java, this is why the Tokens of Java
> are
> > > public, the hints and fixes you can add with 3rd-party Plugins. So
> this is
> > > why you can add a lot of stuff to the Java Editor with 3rd-party
> Plugins.
> > > If we are open-source, we should open minded too to let the Developers
> > > decide, whether I want to add my feature into the core and wait 6 month
> > > after it is relased to the next Version or to add it via a Plugin and
> can
> > > bring it up today or tomorrow.
> > >
> > >
> > > Cheers
> > >
> > > Chris
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Von: Peter Hull
> > > Gesendet: Donnerstag, 15. November 2018 09:06
> > > An: dev.ataur.rahman@gmail.com
> > > Cc: neilcsmith@apache.org; jiri.kovalsky@oracle.com; NetCAT team;
> > > NetBeans Mailing List; dev@netbeans.apache.org
> > > Betreff: Re: [DISCUSS] Apache NetBeans roadmap updates
> > >
> > > The 2 + 2 option makes sense to me. I'd be interested in hearing
> > > people's thoughts about how this lines up with JDK releases:
> > > * Is it better to do the NB testing after the general availability of
> > > the JDK, or aim to have them released about the same time?
> > > * What versions of JDK does Netbeans need to support, in terms of
> > > developing/building NB itself, running NB and developing Java
> > > applications using NB. (since there are alternatives to Oracle JDK I
> > > suppose we don't need to be influenced by Oracle's support scheme)
> > >
> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> > > For additional commands, e-mail:
> dev-help@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> > >
> > > For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> > > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
>
> For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
>
>
>
>
Re: [DISCUSS] Apache NetBeans roadmap updates
Posted by Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com>.
> There should be no barriers in implementing functionality as plugins.
Everything about programming and API design is making barriers.
Although, if you think about it there are no true barriers, you can
use reflection to hack into almost every corner of NetBeans.
But what you would ideally want is for a neat API that provides you
all these hooks, so the plugin author does little work and NetBeans
takes the burden of creating (and maintaining!) this open API.
So, it's a false problem.
The actual problem has always been the same: maintaining quality and
backwards compatibility implies being intentional about the things we
support and the things we don't. There is nothing stopping people
suggesting API improvements and making PRs, but we can't just make
everything public and call it a day. Because then the next release
comes and all the existing plugins stop working (or... we can't evolve
anymore since we commit to such a big public API that we painted
ourselves in a corner).
The idea of providing experimental features as plugins is cool but
somebody will have to do the work for all the plumbing. Those
experimental features won't just become new modules into core, they
will just get absorbed into the existing codebase when they are fully
baked. Nothing preventing this to happen even right now, there just is
no such magical generic infrastructure for it to happen.
> How is it with PHP, is it a plugin which can be updated when new versions are released e.g. PHP 7.4, or do we need to wait until the next major release of Netbeans to get support for new versions?
Worse case scenario we are looking at a 3-6 months delay, correct?
Although the problem won't be about the release date, it will be about
making sure somebody actually implements the proper support for the
next PHP dot release. Assuming we are proactive about that, I don't
see why we wouldn't have an out-of-band release specifically to
include our improved PHP stuff.
These things are not set in stone.
--emi
On Fri, Nov 16, 2018 at 5:00 PM Ondro Mihályi <on...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I fully agree. There should be no barriers in implementing functionality as
> plugins. Before every NB release, the community could vote on plugins to
> include in NB core to add their functionality into core. That would still
> allow updating core plugins to a newer version without waiting for another
> NB release.
>
> Dňa št 15. 11. 2018, 11:39 Christian Lenz <ch...@gmx.net>
> napísal(a):
>
> > Hey,
> >
> > My 2 cents here again. First I want to know, what you think, how the minor
> > Releases should look like. If they also contains Features, I’m fine with
> > that two.
> >
> > I will be more fine to have only 2 releases, if we can have more public
> > apis for other languages except Java. This is, IMHO a big Problem that a
> > lot of stuff, can’t be done with 3rd-party Plugins for HTML, PHP, JS, CSS,
> > etc. because of missing public APIs. If we have more public APIs, we can
> > have more Features inside of NetBeans with only 3rd-party Plugins.
> >
> > We can’t adding hints and Code fixes for JS, CSS/LESS/SCSS, PHP or HTML
> > which could make the work easier. And this is only one Little example. We
> > can’t adding embedding languages to the mentioned languages.
> >
> > NetBeans first was build only for Java, this is why the Tokens of Java are
> > public, the hints and fixes you can add with 3rd-party Plugins. So this is
> > why you can add a lot of stuff to the Java Editor with 3rd-party Plugins.
> > If we are open-source, we should open minded too to let the Developers
> > decide, whether I want to add my feature into the core and wait 6 month
> > after it is relased to the next Version or to add it via a Plugin and can
> > bring it up today or tomorrow.
> >
> >
> > Cheers
> >
> > Chris
> >
> >
> >
> > Von: Peter Hull
> > Gesendet: Donnerstag, 15. November 2018 09:06
> > An: dev.ataur.rahman@gmail.com
> > Cc: neilcsmith@apache.org; jiri.kovalsky@oracle.com; NetCAT team;
> > NetBeans Mailing List; dev@netbeans.apache.org
> > Betreff: Re: [DISCUSS] Apache NetBeans roadmap updates
> >
> > The 2 + 2 option makes sense to me. I'd be interested in hearing
> > people's thoughts about how this lines up with JDK releases:
> > * Is it better to do the NB testing after the general availability of
> > the JDK, or aim to have them released about the same time?
> > * What versions of JDK does Netbeans need to support, in terms of
> > developing/building NB itself, running NB and developing Java
> > applications using NB. (since there are alternatives to Oracle JDK I
> > suppose we don't need to be influenced by Oracle's support scheme)
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> >
> > For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
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Re: [DISCUSS] Apache NetBeans roadmap updates
Posted by Ondro Mihályi <on...@gmail.com>.
I fully agree. There should be no barriers in implementing functionality as
plugins. Before every NB release, the community could vote on plugins to
include in NB core to add their functionality into core. That would still
allow updating core plugins to a newer version without waiting for another
NB release.
Dňa št 15. 11. 2018, 11:39 Christian Lenz <ch...@gmx.net>
napísal(a):
> Hey,
>
> My 2 cents here again. First I want to know, what you think, how the minor
> Releases should look like. If they also contains Features, I’m fine with
> that two.
>
> I will be more fine to have only 2 releases, if we can have more public
> apis for other languages except Java. This is, IMHO a big Problem that a
> lot of stuff, can’t be done with 3rd-party Plugins for HTML, PHP, JS, CSS,
> etc. because of missing public APIs. If we have more public APIs, we can
> have more Features inside of NetBeans with only 3rd-party Plugins.
>
> We can’t adding hints and Code fixes for JS, CSS/LESS/SCSS, PHP or HTML
> which could make the work easier. And this is only one Little example. We
> can’t adding embedding languages to the mentioned languages.
>
> NetBeans first was build only for Java, this is why the Tokens of Java are
> public, the hints and fixes you can add with 3rd-party Plugins. So this is
> why you can add a lot of stuff to the Java Editor with 3rd-party Plugins.
> If we are open-source, we should open minded too to let the Developers
> decide, whether I want to add my feature into the core and wait 6 month
> after it is relased to the next Version or to add it via a Plugin and can
> bring it up today or tomorrow.
>
>
> Cheers
>
> Chris
>
>
>
> Von: Peter Hull
> Gesendet: Donnerstag, 15. November 2018 09:06
> An: dev.ataur.rahman@gmail.com
> Cc: neilcsmith@apache.org; jiri.kovalsky@oracle.com; NetCAT team;
> NetBeans Mailing List; dev@netbeans.apache.org
> Betreff: Re: [DISCUSS] Apache NetBeans roadmap updates
>
> The 2 + 2 option makes sense to me. I'd be interested in hearing
> people's thoughts about how this lines up with JDK releases:
> * Is it better to do the NB testing after the general availability of
> the JDK, or aim to have them released about the same time?
> * What versions of JDK does Netbeans need to support, in terms of
> developing/building NB itself, running NB and developing Java
> applications using NB. (since there are alternatives to Oracle JDK I
> suppose we don't need to be influenced by Oracle's support scheme)
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscribe@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
>
> For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
>
>
>
>
>
AW: [DISCUSS] Apache NetBeans roadmap updates
Posted by Christian Lenz <ch...@gmx.net>.
Hey,
My 2 cents here again. First I want to know, what you think, how the minor Releases should look like. If they also contains Features, I’m fine with that two.
I will be more fine to have only 2 releases, if we can have more public apis for other languages except Java. This is, IMHO a big Problem that a lot of stuff, can’t be done with 3rd-party Plugins for HTML, PHP, JS, CSS, etc. because of missing public APIs. If we have more public APIs, we can have more Features inside of NetBeans with only 3rd-party Plugins.
We can’t adding hints and Code fixes for JS, CSS/LESS/SCSS, PHP or HTML which could make the work easier. And this is only one Little example. We can’t adding embedding languages to the mentioned languages.
NetBeans first was build only for Java, this is why the Tokens of Java are public, the hints and fixes you can add with 3rd-party Plugins. So this is why you can add a lot of stuff to the Java Editor with 3rd-party Plugins. If we are open-source, we should open minded too to let the Developers decide, whether I want to add my feature into the core and wait 6 month after it is relased to the next Version or to add it via a Plugin and can bring it up today or tomorrow.
Cheers
Chris
Von: Peter Hull
Gesendet: Donnerstag, 15. November 2018 09:06
An: dev.ataur.rahman@gmail.com
Cc: neilcsmith@apache.org; jiri.kovalsky@oracle.com; NetCAT team; NetBeans Mailing List; dev@netbeans.apache.org
Betreff: Re: [DISCUSS] Apache NetBeans roadmap updates
The 2 + 2 option makes sense to me. I'd be interested in hearing
people's thoughts about how this lines up with JDK releases:
* Is it better to do the NB testing after the general availability of
the JDK, or aim to have them released about the same time?
* What versions of JDK does Netbeans need to support, in terms of
developing/building NB itself, running NB and developing Java
applications using NB. (since there are alternatives to Oracle JDK I
suppose we don't need to be influenced by Oracle's support scheme)
---------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: [DISCUSS] Apache NetBeans roadmap updates
Posted by Peter Hull <pe...@gmail.com>.
The 2 + 2 option makes sense to me. I'd be interested in hearing
people's thoughts about how this lines up with JDK releases:
* Is it better to do the NB testing after the general availability of
the JDK, or aim to have them released about the same time?
* What versions of JDK does Netbeans need to support, in terms of
developing/building NB itself, running NB and developing Java
applications using NB. (since there are alternatives to Oracle JDK I
suppose we don't need to be influenced by Oracle's support scheme)
---------------------------------------------------------------------
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For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@netbeans.apache.org
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https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
Re: [DISCUSS] Apache NetBeans roadmap updates
Posted by Peter Hull <pe...@gmail.com>.
The 2 + 2 option makes sense to me. I'd be interested in hearing
people's thoughts about how this lines up with JDK releases:
* Is it better to do the NB testing after the general availability of
the JDK, or aim to have them released about the same time?
* What versions of JDK does Netbeans need to support, in terms of
developing/building NB itself, running NB and developing Java
applications using NB. (since there are alternatives to Oracle JDK I
suppose we don't need to be influenced by Oracle's support scheme)
---------------------------------------------------------------------
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For additional commands, e-mail: dev-help@netbeans.incubator.apache.org
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https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
Re: [DISCUSS] Apache NetBeans roadmap updates
Posted by Peter Hull <pe...@gmail.com>.
The 2 + 2 option makes sense to me. I'd be interested in hearing
people's thoughts about how this lines up with JDK releases:
* Is it better to do the NB testing after the general availability of
the JDK, or aim to have them released about the same time?
* What versions of JDK does Netbeans need to support, in terms of
developing/building NB itself, running NB and developing Java
applications using NB. (since there are alternatives to Oracle JDK I
suppose we don't need to be influenced by Oracle's support scheme)
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: netcat-unsubscribe@netbeans.apache.org
For additional commands, e-mail: netcat-help@netbeans.apache.org
For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
Re: [DISCUSS] Apache NetBeans roadmap updates
Posted by "S. M. Ataur Rahman" <de...@gmail.com>.
I am just gonna put my opinion here in two line.
I support the idea of two major and two optional release a year.
I want to focus on updating my code, not IDE.
Re: [DISCUSS] Apache NetBeans roadmap updates
Posted by "S. M. Ataur Rahman" <de...@gmail.com>.
I am just gonna put my opinion here in two line.
I support the idea of two major and two optional release a year.
I want to focus on updating my code, not IDE.
Re: [DISCUSS] Apache NetBeans roadmap updates
Posted by Neil C Smith <ne...@apache.org>.
On Wed, 14 Nov 2018, 22:20 Jiří Kovalský <jiri.kovalsky@oracle.com wrote:
> I am glad to see that except two respondents the vast majority likes the
> proposal for only two mandatory major (with NetCAT programs) and two
> optional minor releases per year.
>
You could equally say that a vast majority of committers on dev@ wanted
fixed quarterly releases the last time this came up. Except that's probably
a similarly inaccurate metric! ;-)
I'm fine if the two major, optional minors is what we go for. But l think
it's probably something that's better decided in a more structured way than
based on a relatively small amount of input on a discussion thread.
Best wishes,
Neil
>
Re: [DISCUSS] Apache NetBeans roadmap updates
Posted by Neil C Smith <ne...@apache.org>.
On Wed, 14 Nov 2018, 22:20 Jiří Kovalský <jiri.kovalsky@oracle.com wrote:
> I am glad to see that except two respondents the vast majority likes the
> proposal for only two mandatory major (with NetCAT programs) and two
> optional minor releases per year.
>
You could equally say that a vast majority of committers on dev@ wanted
fixed quarterly releases the last time this came up. Except that's probably
a similarly inaccurate metric! ;-)
I'm fine if the two major, optional minors is what we go for. But l think
it's probably something that's better decided in a more structured way than
based on a relatively small amount of input on a discussion thread.
Best wishes,
Neil
>
Re: [DISCUSS] Apache NetBeans roadmap updates
Posted by Neil C Smith <ne...@apache.org>.
On Wed, 14 Nov 2018, 22:20 Jiří Kovalský <jiri.kovalsky@oracle.com wrote:
> I am glad to see that except two respondents the vast majority likes the
> proposal for only two mandatory major (with NetCAT programs) and two
> optional minor releases per year.
>
You could equally say that a vast majority of committers on dev@ wanted
fixed quarterly releases the last time this came up. Except that's probably
a similarly inaccurate metric! ;-)
I'm fine if the two major, optional minors is what we go for. But l think
it's probably something that's better decided in a more structured way than
based on a relatively small amount of input on a discussion thread.
Best wishes,
Neil
>
Re: [DISCUSS] Apache NetBeans roadmap updates
Posted by Jiří Kovalský <ji...@oracle.com>.
I am glad to see that except two respondents the vast majority likes the
proposal for only two mandatory major (with NetCAT programs) and two
optional minor releases per year.
The main argument against this release scheme, if I followed the
discussion correctly, is that frequent (quarterly or even monthly)
releases increase quality, because every incomplete feature could be
stabilized as needed and only wait for couple of more weeks to shine in
the next release.
In my opinion:
1. It's exactly the NetBeans old-school and slow release model which
helped get so much credit for the great out-of-the-box experience. I
would rather prefer to keep this differentiator in the future.
2. I myself don't share this modern hysteria for wanting everything and
instantly. Ubuntu has been releasing only in Aprils and Octobers for
years now, it survived this "small" cadence and there are Linux
distributions even building on top of Ubuntu. I know many conservative
developers who actually think otherwise - instead of grabbing every new
NetBeans version they stick to some dated version which serves their
needs and happily use that.
3. Finally I believe that quality is also a feature and it simply takes
time to build a quality product. If things are rushed, the quality is
compromised and the final product gets worse over time.
Just like when people write long e-mails quickly not caring enough about
quality of their own writing, the resulting message is then often hard
to read and contains a lot of typos. Not always though ... :)
-Jirka
Dne 14.11.2018 v 00:38 Geertjan Wielenga napsal(a):
> Indeed, let's discuss it again after the last release of 2019. I think we
> can handle it. We should not overreact. In the meantime, can you consider
> spending less time sending long e-mails? We need your enthusiasm to be
> focused on actually helping with the Apache NetBeans releases -- maybe you
> can participate in the NetCAT process or in the PPMC process -- your name
> is not here, where it should be:
>
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__netbeans-2Dvm.apache.org_synergy_client_app_-23_run_29_v_2&d=DwIFaQ&c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=8_Pz0x0SKeT5e3IehhQKCbQ2xl3tz40jnCU133NrdP4&m=tDe1U4DDuj892pX5ScIfFld1UNPKUjSItcRuGNm1KKM&s=g5oTKCniiQGOohYwUn5pWSFdcyRgl90bCh5f5nKJaN4&e=
>
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__lists.apache.org_thread.html_59deb812e0f9632291d0e4dfacc364fdaf6055348a35cae42f56f760-40-253Cgeneral.incubator.apache.org-253E&d=DwIFaQ&c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=8_Pz0x0SKeT5e3IehhQKCbQ2xl3tz40jnCU133NrdP4&m=tDe1U4DDuj892pX5ScIfFld1UNPKUjSItcRuGNm1KKM&s=TKuy5nQjN3YgPzR7kE5i7MjlHpBIb-za_d_w2ah2kDg&e=
>
> Thanks,
>
> Gj
>
> On Tue, Nov 13, 2018 at 11:17 PM Christian Lenz <ch...@gmx.net>
> wrote:
>
>> -1 for only 2 releases per year. This is far to less and will end up with
>> the Oracle model, where we only have 2 releases per year (Round About, look
>> at the Roadmaps, you see often big time between a new release and an old
>> one). We will not be competitive to other IDEs, we are still now lack of a
>> lot of Features (Little ones, which make everyone happy and Handy and big
>> ones). IMHO the biggest Problem now with the NetCat is still the donation
>> process. I guess, it will be less problematic after we have everything in
>> Apache and completed donation.
>>
>> To put it back to the JDK Version is also not good, again only IMHO,
>> because NetBeans is still not a Java DIE anymore we should remove this
>> thinking which is still in the heads of a lot of developers. And to put
>> that thinking away, NetBeans Needs more advertisement of the other Features
>> and more implementation of stuff, which is still missing (Angular, Vue,
>> JSON Schema, other language supports, etc.)
>>
>> How will the Patches look like? Only bug fixes? What About Major Releases
>> like 11, 12, 13 and in between 11.1, 11.2 with new Features?
>>
>> I mean we can have 11 in Feb and 12 in I don’t know August which is 6
>> Months and in between we should have 11.1 and 11.2 which is not only a
>> bugfix for a lot of Bugs, also with new Features, but not that big. So
>> Maybe no NetCat for 11.1 and 11.2 or not that much time spending on that.
>> Maybe reducing the NetCat process or changing it? Come one, there can be a
>> lot more stuff to make it better and possible. I know and this is a big
>> Benefit, that NetBeans is real stable. I switched from Eclipse now 5 years
>> ago to NetBeans, because of 2 simple Plugins of Eclipse, that broke the
>> whole IDE. I know that we Need that Quality. So IntelliJ or the JetBrains
>> based IDEs are also real stable.
>>
>> So I think we can handle it.
>>
>> And no, using the development Version is not an Option, they are often not
>> stable and not possible to use it in production. I tried it from 7.0 – 7.2
>> I end up with a nightly build with a lot of NPE after starting the DIE so I
>> had to go back tot the stable Version and had to wait 3 more months for the
>> new Fancy Features.
>>
>> Agian, I think after the donation process, it will be more easy, so we
>> should wait a whole year 2019 to see what happens then and should discuss
>> it again after the last release of 2019. We should not overreact yet.
>>
>> My 2 cents
>>
>>
>> Cheers
>>
>> Chris
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Von: Laszlo Kishalmi
>> Gesendet: Dienstag, 13. November 2018 18:08
>> An: netcat@netbeans.apache.org
>> Betreff: Re: [DISCUSS] Apache NetBeans roadmap updates
>>
>> Well, it is not that simple.
>>
>> Having major plugins to have their own release means that you shall
>> replicate at least some of the release infrastructure/process/people
>> work for it.
>>
>> On the other hand one of the greatest values of NetBeans is that it just
>> works out of the box. Having some plugins create their own releases
>> means moving to the Eclipse model as plugins might creating frictions
>> from release to release between each other and the IDE. I had to listen
>> countless discussions of my colleges which version of eclipse to use
>> with which version of plugins, until the Eclipse distribution creators
>> showed up. So I would not go that route.
>>
>> Having two releases per year with 3 month patch releases sounds fair to me.
>>
>> For those who want the new and shiny, there was always a possibility to
>> use the development version.
>>
>> On 11/13/18 8:03 AM, Alexander Romanenko wrote:
>>> Sorry if this was discussed before and I missed it.
>>> Are there any reasons why major plugins cannot have their own release
>>> schedule? From org perspective, i think (1) puts less pressure on testers
>>> to test all features at once, including ones they are not familiar with.
>>> (2) less pressure from users about not having access to plugins that are
>>> "complete" months ago but have to wait for arbitrary global release date.
>>>
>>> вт, 13 нояб. 2018 г. в 9:59, Neil C Smith <ne...@apache.org>:
>>>
>>>> On Tue, 13 Nov 2018, 14:16 Emilian Bold <emilian.bold@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Two releases per year seems more manageable.
>>>>>
>>>> The point of 4 was to be more manageable though. Less changes, less
>>>> pressure for new features to meet deadlines (dropping 3 months less of
>> an
>>>> issue)
>>>>
>>>> I'm happy with either, but I don't think the current situation with
>> lots of
>>>> changes / things still being donated is a good model for how this might
>>>> work once the dust settles.
>>>>
>>>> Best wishes,
>>>>
>>>> Neil
>>>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: netcat-unsubscribe@netbeans.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: netcat-help@netbeans.apache.org
>>
>> For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__cwiki.apache.org_confluence_display_NETBEANS_Mailing-2Blists&d=DwIFaQ&c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=8_Pz0x0SKeT5e3IehhQKCbQ2xl3tz40jnCU133NrdP4&m=tDe1U4DDuj892pX5ScIfFld1UNPKUjSItcRuGNm1KKM&s=Hkl_8ZPIVlFVyDrJtgnrMKewth1KU2mvflr5lND_2IM&e=
>>
>>
>>
>
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Re: [DISCUSS] Apache NetBeans roadmap updates
Posted by Jiří Kovalský <ji...@oracle.com>.
I am glad to see that except two respondents the vast majority likes the
proposal for only two mandatory major (with NetCAT programs) and two
optional minor releases per year.
The main argument against this release scheme, if I followed the
discussion correctly, is that frequent (quarterly or even monthly)
releases increase quality, because every incomplete feature could be
stabilized as needed and only wait for couple of more weeks to shine in
the next release.
In my opinion:
1. It's exactly the NetBeans old-school and slow release model which
helped get so much credit for the great out-of-the-box experience. I
would rather prefer to keep this differentiator in the future.
2. I myself don't share this modern hysteria for wanting everything and
instantly. Ubuntu has been releasing only in Aprils and Octobers for
years now, it survived this "small" cadence and there are Linux
distributions even building on top of Ubuntu. I know many conservative
developers who actually think otherwise - instead of grabbing every new
NetBeans version they stick to some dated version which serves their
needs and happily use that.
3. Finally I believe that quality is also a feature and it simply takes
time to build a quality product. If things are rushed, the quality is
compromised and the final product gets worse over time.
Just like when people write long e-mails quickly not caring enough about
quality of their own writing, the resulting message is then often hard
to read and contains a lot of typos. Not always though ... :)
-Jirka
Dne 14.11.2018 v 00:38 Geertjan Wielenga napsal(a):
> Indeed, let's discuss it again after the last release of 2019. I think we
> can handle it. We should not overreact. In the meantime, can you consider
> spending less time sending long e-mails? We need your enthusiasm to be
> focused on actually helping with the Apache NetBeans releases -- maybe you
> can participate in the NetCAT process or in the PPMC process -- your name
> is not here, where it should be:
>
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__netbeans-2Dvm.apache.org_synergy_client_app_-23_run_29_v_2&d=DwIFaQ&c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=8_Pz0x0SKeT5e3IehhQKCbQ2xl3tz40jnCU133NrdP4&m=tDe1U4DDuj892pX5ScIfFld1UNPKUjSItcRuGNm1KKM&s=g5oTKCniiQGOohYwUn5pWSFdcyRgl90bCh5f5nKJaN4&e=
>
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__lists.apache.org_thread.html_59deb812e0f9632291d0e4dfacc364fdaf6055348a35cae42f56f760-40-253Cgeneral.incubator.apache.org-253E&d=DwIFaQ&c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=8_Pz0x0SKeT5e3IehhQKCbQ2xl3tz40jnCU133NrdP4&m=tDe1U4DDuj892pX5ScIfFld1UNPKUjSItcRuGNm1KKM&s=TKuy5nQjN3YgPzR7kE5i7MjlHpBIb-za_d_w2ah2kDg&e=
>
> Thanks,
>
> Gj
>
> On Tue, Nov 13, 2018 at 11:17 PM Christian Lenz <ch...@gmx.net>
> wrote:
>
>> -1 for only 2 releases per year. This is far to less and will end up with
>> the Oracle model, where we only have 2 releases per year (Round About, look
>> at the Roadmaps, you see often big time between a new release and an old
>> one). We will not be competitive to other IDEs, we are still now lack of a
>> lot of Features (Little ones, which make everyone happy and Handy and big
>> ones). IMHO the biggest Problem now with the NetCat is still the donation
>> process. I guess, it will be less problematic after we have everything in
>> Apache and completed donation.
>>
>> To put it back to the JDK Version is also not good, again only IMHO,
>> because NetBeans is still not a Java DIE anymore we should remove this
>> thinking which is still in the heads of a lot of developers. And to put
>> that thinking away, NetBeans Needs more advertisement of the other Features
>> and more implementation of stuff, which is still missing (Angular, Vue,
>> JSON Schema, other language supports, etc.)
>>
>> How will the Patches look like? Only bug fixes? What About Major Releases
>> like 11, 12, 13 and in between 11.1, 11.2 with new Features?
>>
>> I mean we can have 11 in Feb and 12 in I don’t know August which is 6
>> Months and in between we should have 11.1 and 11.2 which is not only a
>> bugfix for a lot of Bugs, also with new Features, but not that big. So
>> Maybe no NetCat for 11.1 and 11.2 or not that much time spending on that.
>> Maybe reducing the NetCat process or changing it? Come one, there can be a
>> lot more stuff to make it better and possible. I know and this is a big
>> Benefit, that NetBeans is real stable. I switched from Eclipse now 5 years
>> ago to NetBeans, because of 2 simple Plugins of Eclipse, that broke the
>> whole IDE. I know that we Need that Quality. So IntelliJ or the JetBrains
>> based IDEs are also real stable.
>>
>> So I think we can handle it.
>>
>> And no, using the development Version is not an Option, they are often not
>> stable and not possible to use it in production. I tried it from 7.0 – 7.2
>> I end up with a nightly build with a lot of NPE after starting the DIE so I
>> had to go back tot the stable Version and had to wait 3 more months for the
>> new Fancy Features.
>>
>> Agian, I think after the donation process, it will be more easy, so we
>> should wait a whole year 2019 to see what happens then and should discuss
>> it again after the last release of 2019. We should not overreact yet.
>>
>> My 2 cents
>>
>>
>> Cheers
>>
>> Chris
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Von: Laszlo Kishalmi
>> Gesendet: Dienstag, 13. November 2018 18:08
>> An: netcat@netbeans.apache.org
>> Betreff: Re: [DISCUSS] Apache NetBeans roadmap updates
>>
>> Well, it is not that simple.
>>
>> Having major plugins to have their own release means that you shall
>> replicate at least some of the release infrastructure/process/people
>> work for it.
>>
>> On the other hand one of the greatest values of NetBeans is that it just
>> works out of the box. Having some plugins create their own releases
>> means moving to the Eclipse model as plugins might creating frictions
>> from release to release between each other and the IDE. I had to listen
>> countless discussions of my colleges which version of eclipse to use
>> with which version of plugins, until the Eclipse distribution creators
>> showed up. So I would not go that route.
>>
>> Having two releases per year with 3 month patch releases sounds fair to me.
>>
>> For those who want the new and shiny, there was always a possibility to
>> use the development version.
>>
>> On 11/13/18 8:03 AM, Alexander Romanenko wrote:
>>> Sorry if this was discussed before and I missed it.
>>> Are there any reasons why major plugins cannot have their own release
>>> schedule? From org perspective, i think (1) puts less pressure on testers
>>> to test all features at once, including ones they are not familiar with.
>>> (2) less pressure from users about not having access to plugins that are
>>> "complete" months ago but have to wait for arbitrary global release date.
>>>
>>> вт, 13 нояб. 2018 г. в 9:59, Neil C Smith <ne...@apache.org>:
>>>
>>>> On Tue, 13 Nov 2018, 14:16 Emilian Bold <emilian.bold@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Two releases per year seems more manageable.
>>>>>
>>>> The point of 4 was to be more manageable though. Less changes, less
>>>> pressure for new features to meet deadlines (dropping 3 months less of
>> an
>>>> issue)
>>>>
>>>> I'm happy with either, but I don't think the current situation with
>> lots of
>>>> changes / things still being donated is a good model for how this might
>>>> work once the dust settles.
>>>>
>>>> Best wishes,
>>>>
>>>> Neil
>>>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: netcat-unsubscribe@netbeans.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: netcat-help@netbeans.apache.org
>>
>> For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__cwiki.apache.org_confluence_display_NETBEANS_Mailing-2Blists&d=DwIFaQ&c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=8_Pz0x0SKeT5e3IehhQKCbQ2xl3tz40jnCU133NrdP4&m=tDe1U4DDuj892pX5ScIfFld1UNPKUjSItcRuGNm1KKM&s=Hkl_8ZPIVlFVyDrJtgnrMKewth1KU2mvflr5lND_2IM&e=
>>
>>
>>
>
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Re: [DISCUSS] Apache NetBeans roadmap updates
Posted by Jiří Kovalský <ji...@oracle.com>.
I am glad to see that except two respondents the vast majority likes the
proposal for only two mandatory major (with NetCAT programs) and two
optional minor releases per year.
The main argument against this release scheme, if I followed the
discussion correctly, is that frequent (quarterly or even monthly)
releases increase quality, because every incomplete feature could be
stabilized as needed and only wait for couple of more weeks to shine in
the next release.
In my opinion:
1. It's exactly the NetBeans old-school and slow release model which
helped get so much credit for the great out-of-the-box experience. I
would rather prefer to keep this differentiator in the future.
2. I myself don't share this modern hysteria for wanting everything and
instantly. Ubuntu has been releasing only in Aprils and Octobers for
years now, it survived this "small" cadence and there are Linux
distributions even building on top of Ubuntu. I know many conservative
developers who actually think otherwise - instead of grabbing every new
NetBeans version they stick to some dated version which serves their
needs and happily use that.
3. Finally I believe that quality is also a feature and it simply takes
time to build a quality product. If things are rushed, the quality is
compromised and the final product gets worse over time.
Just like when people write long e-mails quickly not caring enough about
quality of their own writing, the resulting message is then often hard
to read and contains a lot of typos. Not always though ... :)
-Jirka
Dne 14.11.2018 v 00:38 Geertjan Wielenga napsal(a):
> Indeed, let's discuss it again after the last release of 2019. I think we
> can handle it. We should not overreact. In the meantime, can you consider
> spending less time sending long e-mails? We need your enthusiasm to be
> focused on actually helping with the Apache NetBeans releases -- maybe you
> can participate in the NetCAT process or in the PPMC process -- your name
> is not here, where it should be:
>
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__netbeans-2Dvm.apache.org_synergy_client_app_-23_run_29_v_2&d=DwIFaQ&c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=8_Pz0x0SKeT5e3IehhQKCbQ2xl3tz40jnCU133NrdP4&m=tDe1U4DDuj892pX5ScIfFld1UNPKUjSItcRuGNm1KKM&s=g5oTKCniiQGOohYwUn5pWSFdcyRgl90bCh5f5nKJaN4&e=
>
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__lists.apache.org_thread.html_59deb812e0f9632291d0e4dfacc364fdaf6055348a35cae42f56f760-40-253Cgeneral.incubator.apache.org-253E&d=DwIFaQ&c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=8_Pz0x0SKeT5e3IehhQKCbQ2xl3tz40jnCU133NrdP4&m=tDe1U4DDuj892pX5ScIfFld1UNPKUjSItcRuGNm1KKM&s=TKuy5nQjN3YgPzR7kE5i7MjlHpBIb-za_d_w2ah2kDg&e=
>
> Thanks,
>
> Gj
>
> On Tue, Nov 13, 2018 at 11:17 PM Christian Lenz <ch...@gmx.net>
> wrote:
>
>> -1 for only 2 releases per year. This is far to less and will end up with
>> the Oracle model, where we only have 2 releases per year (Round About, look
>> at the Roadmaps, you see often big time between a new release and an old
>> one). We will not be competitive to other IDEs, we are still now lack of a
>> lot of Features (Little ones, which make everyone happy and Handy and big
>> ones). IMHO the biggest Problem now with the NetCat is still the donation
>> process. I guess, it will be less problematic after we have everything in
>> Apache and completed donation.
>>
>> To put it back to the JDK Version is also not good, again only IMHO,
>> because NetBeans is still not a Java DIE anymore we should remove this
>> thinking which is still in the heads of a lot of developers. And to put
>> that thinking away, NetBeans Needs more advertisement of the other Features
>> and more implementation of stuff, which is still missing (Angular, Vue,
>> JSON Schema, other language supports, etc.)
>>
>> How will the Patches look like? Only bug fixes? What About Major Releases
>> like 11, 12, 13 and in between 11.1, 11.2 with new Features?
>>
>> I mean we can have 11 in Feb and 12 in I don’t know August which is 6
>> Months and in between we should have 11.1 and 11.2 which is not only a
>> bugfix for a lot of Bugs, also with new Features, but not that big. So
>> Maybe no NetCat for 11.1 and 11.2 or not that much time spending on that.
>> Maybe reducing the NetCat process or changing it? Come one, there can be a
>> lot more stuff to make it better and possible. I know and this is a big
>> Benefit, that NetBeans is real stable. I switched from Eclipse now 5 years
>> ago to NetBeans, because of 2 simple Plugins of Eclipse, that broke the
>> whole IDE. I know that we Need that Quality. So IntelliJ or the JetBrains
>> based IDEs are also real stable.
>>
>> So I think we can handle it.
>>
>> And no, using the development Version is not an Option, they are often not
>> stable and not possible to use it in production. I tried it from 7.0 – 7.2
>> I end up with a nightly build with a lot of NPE after starting the DIE so I
>> had to go back tot the stable Version and had to wait 3 more months for the
>> new Fancy Features.
>>
>> Agian, I think after the donation process, it will be more easy, so we
>> should wait a whole year 2019 to see what happens then and should discuss
>> it again after the last release of 2019. We should not overreact yet.
>>
>> My 2 cents
>>
>>
>> Cheers
>>
>> Chris
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Von: Laszlo Kishalmi
>> Gesendet: Dienstag, 13. November 2018 18:08
>> An: netcat@netbeans.apache.org
>> Betreff: Re: [DISCUSS] Apache NetBeans roadmap updates
>>
>> Well, it is not that simple.
>>
>> Having major plugins to have their own release means that you shall
>> replicate at least some of the release infrastructure/process/people
>> work for it.
>>
>> On the other hand one of the greatest values of NetBeans is that it just
>> works out of the box. Having some plugins create their own releases
>> means moving to the Eclipse model as plugins might creating frictions
>> from release to release between each other and the IDE. I had to listen
>> countless discussions of my colleges which version of eclipse to use
>> with which version of plugins, until the Eclipse distribution creators
>> showed up. So I would not go that route.
>>
>> Having two releases per year with 3 month patch releases sounds fair to me.
>>
>> For those who want the new and shiny, there was always a possibility to
>> use the development version.
>>
>> On 11/13/18 8:03 AM, Alexander Romanenko wrote:
>>> Sorry if this was discussed before and I missed it.
>>> Are there any reasons why major plugins cannot have their own release
>>> schedule? From org perspective, i think (1) puts less pressure on testers
>>> to test all features at once, including ones they are not familiar with.
>>> (2) less pressure from users about not having access to plugins that are
>>> "complete" months ago but have to wait for arbitrary global release date.
>>>
>>> вт, 13 нояб. 2018 г. в 9:59, Neil C Smith <ne...@apache.org>:
>>>
>>>> On Tue, 13 Nov 2018, 14:16 Emilian Bold <emilian.bold@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Two releases per year seems more manageable.
>>>>>
>>>> The point of 4 was to be more manageable though. Less changes, less
>>>> pressure for new features to meet deadlines (dropping 3 months less of
>> an
>>>> issue)
>>>>
>>>> I'm happy with either, but I don't think the current situation with
>> lots of
>>>> changes / things still being donated is a good model for how this might
>>>> work once the dust settles.
>>>>
>>>> Best wishes,
>>>>
>>>> Neil
>>>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: netcat-unsubscribe@netbeans.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: netcat-help@netbeans.apache.org
>>
>> For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__cwiki.apache.org_confluence_display_NETBEANS_Mailing-2Blists&d=DwIFaQ&c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PZh8Bv7qIrMUB65eapI_JnE&r=8_Pz0x0SKeT5e3IehhQKCbQ2xl3tz40jnCU133NrdP4&m=tDe1U4DDuj892pX5ScIfFld1UNPKUjSItcRuGNm1KKM&s=Hkl_8ZPIVlFVyDrJtgnrMKewth1KU2mvflr5lND_2IM&e=
>>
>>
>>
>
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Re: [DISCUSS] Apache NetBeans roadmap updates
Posted by Geertjan Wielenga <ge...@googlemail.com.INVALID>.
Indeed, let's discuss it again after the last release of 2019. I think we
can handle it. We should not overreact. In the meantime, can you consider
spending less time sending long e-mails? We need your enthusiasm to be
focused on actually helping with the Apache NetBeans releases -- maybe you
can participate in the NetCAT process or in the PPMC process -- your name
is not here, where it should be:
http://netbeans-vm.apache.org/synergy/client/app/#/run/29/v/2
https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/59deb812e0f9632291d0e4dfacc364fdaf6055348a35cae42f56f760@%3Cgeneral.incubator.apache.org%3E
Thanks,
Gj
On Tue, Nov 13, 2018 at 11:17 PM Christian Lenz <ch...@gmx.net>
wrote:
> -1 for only 2 releases per year. This is far to less and will end up with
> the Oracle model, where we only have 2 releases per year (Round About, look
> at the Roadmaps, you see often big time between a new release and an old
> one). We will not be competitive to other IDEs, we are still now lack of a
> lot of Features (Little ones, which make everyone happy and Handy and big
> ones). IMHO the biggest Problem now with the NetCat is still the donation
> process. I guess, it will be less problematic after we have everything in
> Apache and completed donation.
>
> To put it back to the JDK Version is also not good, again only IMHO,
> because NetBeans is still not a Java DIE anymore we should remove this
> thinking which is still in the heads of a lot of developers. And to put
> that thinking away, NetBeans Needs more advertisement of the other Features
> and more implementation of stuff, which is still missing (Angular, Vue,
> JSON Schema, other language supports, etc.)
>
> How will the Patches look like? Only bug fixes? What About Major Releases
> like 11, 12, 13 and in between 11.1, 11.2 with new Features?
>
> I mean we can have 11 in Feb and 12 in I don’t know August which is 6
> Months and in between we should have 11.1 and 11.2 which is not only a
> bugfix for a lot of Bugs, also with new Features, but not that big. So
> Maybe no NetCat for 11.1 and 11.2 or not that much time spending on that.
> Maybe reducing the NetCat process or changing it? Come one, there can be a
> lot more stuff to make it better and possible. I know and this is a big
> Benefit, that NetBeans is real stable. I switched from Eclipse now 5 years
> ago to NetBeans, because of 2 simple Plugins of Eclipse, that broke the
> whole IDE. I know that we Need that Quality. So IntelliJ or the JetBrains
> based IDEs are also real stable.
>
> So I think we can handle it.
>
> And no, using the development Version is not an Option, they are often not
> stable and not possible to use it in production. I tried it from 7.0 – 7.2
> I end up with a nightly build with a lot of NPE after starting the DIE so I
> had to go back tot the stable Version and had to wait 3 more months for the
> new Fancy Features.
>
> Agian, I think after the donation process, it will be more easy, so we
> should wait a whole year 2019 to see what happens then and should discuss
> it again after the last release of 2019. We should not overreact yet.
>
> My 2 cents
>
>
> Cheers
>
> Chris
>
>
>
>
> Von: Laszlo Kishalmi
> Gesendet: Dienstag, 13. November 2018 18:08
> An: netcat@netbeans.apache.org
> Betreff: Re: [DISCUSS] Apache NetBeans roadmap updates
>
> Well, it is not that simple.
>
> Having major plugins to have their own release means that you shall
> replicate at least some of the release infrastructure/process/people
> work for it.
>
> On the other hand one of the greatest values of NetBeans is that it just
> works out of the box. Having some plugins create their own releases
> means moving to the Eclipse model as plugins might creating frictions
> from release to release between each other and the IDE. I had to listen
> countless discussions of my colleges which version of eclipse to use
> with which version of plugins, until the Eclipse distribution creators
> showed up. So I would not go that route.
>
> Having two releases per year with 3 month patch releases sounds fair to me.
>
> For those who want the new and shiny, there was always a possibility to
> use the development version.
>
> On 11/13/18 8:03 AM, Alexander Romanenko wrote:
> > Sorry if this was discussed before and I missed it.
> > Are there any reasons why major plugins cannot have their own release
> > schedule? From org perspective, i think (1) puts less pressure on testers
> > to test all features at once, including ones they are not familiar with.
> > (2) less pressure from users about not having access to plugins that are
> > "complete" months ago but have to wait for arbitrary global release date.
> >
> > вт, 13 нояб. 2018 г. в 9:59, Neil C Smith <ne...@apache.org>:
> >
> >> On Tue, 13 Nov 2018, 14:16 Emilian Bold <emilian.bold@gmail.com wrote:
> >>
> >>> Two releases per year seems more manageable.
> >>>
> >> The point of 4 was to be more manageable though. Less changes, less
> >> pressure for new features to meet deadlines (dropping 3 months less of
> an
> >> issue)
> >>
> >> I'm happy with either, but I don't think the current situation with
> lots of
> >> changes / things still being donated is a good model for how this might
> >> work once the dust settles.
> >>
> >> Best wishes,
> >>
> >> Neil
> >>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: netcat-unsubscribe@netbeans.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: netcat-help@netbeans.apache.org
>
> For further information about the NetBeans mailing lists, visit:
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Mailing+lists
>
>
>
Re: [DISCUSS] Apache NetBeans roadmap updates
Posted by Neil C Smith <ne...@apache.org>.
On Tue, 13 Nov 2018 at 22:17, Christian Lenz <ch...@gmx.net> wrote:
> Maybe reducing the NetCat process or changing it?
OK, so in the interests of [DISCUSS] :-) I think Chris is right here.
I wasn't able to take part in NetCAT for NB10, but did for NB9, and
that process probably does need to adapt. We had a conversation a
while ago about quarterly releases time-based releases, but are we a
little in limbo between what used to happen and what should happen
now?
I'm not sure "quality" is the most useful thing to consider here, in
the sense that anyone who likes Release Early, Release Often is going
to give you loads of "evidence" that that leads to better "quality".
:-) On the other hand, our capacity is important. I just wonder
whether we should be looking at other projects that are doing this
successfully and what their processes are?
A couple of things based on things I've seen elsewhere that might be
worth considering if we stick with this release model -
* Fix the feature freeze / branch dates for the next 4 releases now.
Maybe 4 weeks after each release. Keep master stable, and branch then
- anything not ready for master is not a feature for the next release.
* Do a voted-on, public early-access release of the branch maybe 2
weeks after that? At the moment the NetCAT binaries are not meant to
be distributed outside dev@ and netcat@, but we could make them
public, encourage early adopters to test and report alongside any
NetCAT process.
Best wishes,
Neil
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AW: [DISCUSS] Apache NetBeans roadmap updates
Posted by Christian Lenz <ch...@gmx.net>.
-1 for only 2 releases per year. This is far to less and will end up with the Oracle model, where we only have 2 releases per year (Round About, look at the Roadmaps, you see often big time between a new release and an old one). We will not be competitive to other IDEs, we are still now lack of a lot of Features (Little ones, which make everyone happy and Handy and big ones). IMHO the biggest Problem now with the NetCat is still the donation process. I guess, it will be less problematic after we have everything in Apache and completed donation.
To put it back to the JDK Version is also not good, again only IMHO, because NetBeans is still not a Java DIE anymore we should remove this thinking which is still in the heads of a lot of developers. And to put that thinking away, NetBeans Needs more advertisement of the other Features and more implementation of stuff, which is still missing (Angular, Vue, JSON Schema, other language supports, etc.)
How will the Patches look like? Only bug fixes? What About Major Releases like 11, 12, 13 and in between 11.1, 11.2 with new Features?
I mean we can have 11 in Feb and 12 in I don’t know August which is 6 Months and in between we should have 11.1 and 11.2 which is not only a bugfix for a lot of Bugs, also with new Features, but not that big. So Maybe no NetCat for 11.1 and 11.2 or not that much time spending on that. Maybe reducing the NetCat process or changing it? Come one, there can be a lot more stuff to make it better and possible. I know and this is a big Benefit, that NetBeans is real stable. I switched from Eclipse now 5 years ago to NetBeans, because of 2 simple Plugins of Eclipse, that broke the whole IDE. I know that we Need that Quality. So IntelliJ or the JetBrains based IDEs are also real stable.
So I think we can handle it.
And no, using the development Version is not an Option, they are often not stable and not possible to use it in production. I tried it from 7.0 – 7.2 I end up with a nightly build with a lot of NPE after starting the DIE so I had to go back tot the stable Version and had to wait 3 more months for the new Fancy Features.
Agian, I think after the donation process, it will be more easy, so we should wait a whole year 2019 to see what happens then and should discuss it again after the last release of 2019. We should not overreact yet.
My 2 cents
Cheers
Chris
Von: Laszlo Kishalmi
Gesendet: Dienstag, 13. November 2018 18:08
An: netcat@netbeans.apache.org
Betreff: Re: [DISCUSS] Apache NetBeans roadmap updates
Well, it is not that simple.
Having major plugins to have their own release means that you shall
replicate at least some of the release infrastructure/process/people
work for it.
On the other hand one of the greatest values of NetBeans is that it just
works out of the box. Having some plugins create their own releases
means moving to the Eclipse model as plugins might creating frictions
from release to release between each other and the IDE. I had to listen
countless discussions of my colleges which version of eclipse to use
with which version of plugins, until the Eclipse distribution creators
showed up. So I would not go that route.
Having two releases per year with 3 month patch releases sounds fair to me.
For those who want the new and shiny, there was always a possibility to
use the development version.
On 11/13/18 8:03 AM, Alexander Romanenko wrote:
> Sorry if this was discussed before and I missed it.
> Are there any reasons why major plugins cannot have their own release
> schedule? From org perspective, i think (1) puts less pressure on testers
> to test all features at once, including ones they are not familiar with.
> (2) less pressure from users about not having access to plugins that are
> "complete" months ago but have to wait for arbitrary global release date.
>
> вт, 13 нояб. 2018 г. в 9:59, Neil C Smith <ne...@apache.org>:
>
>> On Tue, 13 Nov 2018, 14:16 Emilian Bold <emilian.bold@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>>> Two releases per year seems more manageable.
>>>
>> The point of 4 was to be more manageable though. Less changes, less
>> pressure for new features to meet deadlines (dropping 3 months less of an
>> issue)
>>
>> I'm happy with either, but I don't think the current situation with lots of
>> changes / things still being donated is a good model for how this might
>> work once the dust settles.
>>
>> Best wishes,
>>
>> Neil
>>
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Re: [DISCUSS] Apache NetBeans roadmap updates
Posted by Laszlo Kishalmi <la...@gmail.com>.
Well, it is not that simple.
Having major plugins to have their own release means that you shall
replicate at least some of the release infrastructure/process/people
work for it.
On the other hand one of the greatest values of NetBeans is that it just
works out of the box. Having some plugins create their own releases
means moving to the Eclipse model as plugins might creating frictions
from release to release between each other and the IDE. I had to listen
countless discussions of my colleges which version of eclipse to use
with which version of plugins, until the Eclipse distribution creators
showed up. So I would not go that route.
Having two releases per year with 3 month patch releases sounds fair to me.
For those who want the new and shiny, there was always a possibility to
use the development version.
On 11/13/18 8:03 AM, Alexander Romanenko wrote:
> Sorry if this was discussed before and I missed it.
> Are there any reasons why major plugins cannot have their own release
> schedule? From org perspective, i think (1) puts less pressure on testers
> to test all features at once, including ones they are not familiar with.
> (2) less pressure from users about not having access to plugins that are
> "complete" months ago but have to wait for arbitrary global release date.
>
> вт, 13 нояб. 2018 г. в 9:59, Neil C Smith <ne...@apache.org>:
>
>> On Tue, 13 Nov 2018, 14:16 Emilian Bold <emilian.bold@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>>> Two releases per year seems more manageable.
>>>
>> The point of 4 was to be more manageable though. Less changes, less
>> pressure for new features to meet deadlines (dropping 3 months less of an
>> issue)
>>
>> I'm happy with either, but I don't think the current situation with lots of
>> changes / things still being donated is a good model for how this might
>> work once the dust settles.
>>
>> Best wishes,
>>
>> Neil
>>
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Re: [DISCUSS] Apache NetBeans roadmap updates
Posted by Alexander Romanenko <al...@alex-tech-adventures.com>.
Sorry if this was discussed before and I missed it.
Are there any reasons why major plugins cannot have their own release
schedule? From org perspective, i think (1) puts less pressure on testers
to test all features at once, including ones they are not familiar with.
(2) less pressure from users about not having access to plugins that are
"complete" months ago but have to wait for arbitrary global release date.
вт, 13 нояб. 2018 г. в 9:59, Neil C Smith <ne...@apache.org>:
> On Tue, 13 Nov 2018, 14:16 Emilian Bold <emilian.bold@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > Two releases per year seems more manageable.
> >
>
> The point of 4 was to be more manageable though. Less changes, less
> pressure for new features to meet deadlines (dropping 3 months less of an
> issue)
>
> I'm happy with either, but I don't think the current situation with lots of
> changes / things still being donated is a good model for how this might
> work once the dust settles.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Neil
>
> >
>
Re: [DISCUSS] Apache NetBeans roadmap updates
Posted by Neil C Smith <ne...@apache.org>.
On Tue, 13 Nov 2018, 14:16 Emilian Bold <emilian.bold@gmail.com wrote:
> Two releases per year seems more manageable.
>
The point of 4 was to be more manageable though. Less changes, less
pressure for new features to meet deadlines (dropping 3 months less of an
issue)
I'm happy with either, but I don't think the current situation with lots of
changes / things still being donated is a good model for how this might
work once the dust settles.
Best wishes,
Neil
>
Re: [DISCUSS] Apache NetBeans roadmap updates
Posted by Neil C Smith <ne...@apache.org>.
On Tue, 13 Nov 2018, 14:16 Emilian Bold <emilian.bold@gmail.com wrote:
> Two releases per year seems more manageable.
>
The point of 4 was to be more manageable though. Less changes, less
pressure for new features to meet deadlines (dropping 3 months less of an
issue)
I'm happy with either, but I don't think the current situation with lots of
changes / things still being donated is a good model for how this might
work once the dust settles.
Best wishes,
Neil
>
Re: [DISCUSS] Apache NetBeans roadmap updates
Posted by Claus Lüthje <cl...@thetop.ch>.
I‘d agree wit Bayless. Two releases per year are better and a more realistic goal.
Quality wins in the end and getting all those plugins over from 8.2 ASAP would certainly enrich this platform.
Regards,
Claus
> Am 13.11.2018 um 15:36 schrieb Bayless <bk...@cox.net>:
>
> I would agree with two releases per year. I think the quality would be better.
>
> Bayless
>
>
>> On 11/13/18 8:15 AM, Emilian Bold wrote:
>> Two releases per year seems more manageable.
>>
>> --emi
>>
>> On Tue, Nov 13, 2018 at 3:19 PM Geertjan Wielenga
>> <ge...@googlemail.com.invalid> wrote:
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> We've completed the NetCAT process (on the functioning of the convenience binary of Apache NetBeans 10) and the PPMC vote (on the sources of Apache NetBeans 10).
>>>
>>> Right now, the IPMC (the incubator project management committee) is voting on the sources of Apache NetBeans 10, since Apache NetBeans is in the Apache Incubator. (We're going to be voting to get out of the Apache Incubator very soon, with support from our mentors, since they're happy with how we're working as a community and consider us to be ready to be a top level Apache project.)
>>>
>>> So, what's next? After we release Apache NetBeans 10, we'll start working on the next release. Consensus on the dev mailing list has formed around quarterly releases. In the NetCAT process, we found that there was quite some time pressure to get things done and maybe we should take more time and thereby be able to provide more quality.
>>>
>>> As a result, here's a proposal to do two major releases next year, in line with JDK 12 and 13 in March and September, with two optional minor releases in between (e.g., a bug fix release could be great). Of course, Apache NetBeans does not serve the Java community only, though those two months of March and September are fairly spaced anyway and potentially could allow us to provide bundles with those JDKs if and when that were to be possible.
>>>
>>> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Apache+NetBeans+Release+Roadmap
>>>
>>> There are several significant bugs that we need to nail down and resolve, we can include them in the upcoming releases or distribute them via plugins. We're I'm sure all very aware of several problems, as well as features that need to be added -- we need everyone to be proactive in pinning down bugs and in providing code contributions for missing features.
>>>
>>> Comments welcome, and many thanks for all the hard and enthusiastic work done so far.
>>>
>>> Gj
>>>
>>>
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Re: [DISCUSS] Apache NetBeans roadmap updates
Posted by Bayless <bk...@cox.net>.
I would agree with two releases per year. I think the quality would be
better.
Bayless
On 11/13/18 8:15 AM, Emilian Bold wrote:
> Two releases per year seems more manageable.
>
> --emi
>
> On Tue, Nov 13, 2018 at 3:19 PM Geertjan Wielenga
> <ge...@googlemail.com.invalid> wrote:
>> Hi all,
>>
>> We've completed the NetCAT process (on the functioning of the convenience binary of Apache NetBeans 10) and the PPMC vote (on the sources of Apache NetBeans 10).
>>
>> Right now, the IPMC (the incubator project management committee) is voting on the sources of Apache NetBeans 10, since Apache NetBeans is in the Apache Incubator. (We're going to be voting to get out of the Apache Incubator very soon, with support from our mentors, since they're happy with how we're working as a community and consider us to be ready to be a top level Apache project.)
>>
>> So, what's next? After we release Apache NetBeans 10, we'll start working on the next release. Consensus on the dev mailing list has formed around quarterly releases. In the NetCAT process, we found that there was quite some time pressure to get things done and maybe we should take more time and thereby be able to provide more quality.
>>
>> As a result, here's a proposal to do two major releases next year, in line with JDK 12 and 13 in March and September, with two optional minor releases in between (e.g., a bug fix release could be great). Of course, Apache NetBeans does not serve the Java community only, though those two months of March and September are fairly spaced anyway and potentially could allow us to provide bundles with those JDKs if and when that were to be possible.
>>
>> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Apache+NetBeans+Release+Roadmap
>>
>> There are several significant bugs that we need to nail down and resolve, we can include them in the upcoming releases or distribute them via plugins. We're I'm sure all very aware of several problems, as well as features that need to be added -- we need everyone to be proactive in pinning down bugs and in providing code contributions for missing features.
>>
>> Comments welcome, and many thanks for all the hard and enthusiastic work done so far.
>>
>> Gj
>>
>>
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> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@netbeans.apache.org
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Re: [DISCUSS] Apache NetBeans roadmap updates
Posted by Neil C Smith <ne...@apache.org>.
On Tue, 13 Nov 2018, 14:16 Emilian Bold <emilian.bold@gmail.com wrote:
> Two releases per year seems more manageable.
>
The point of 4 was to be more manageable though. Less changes, less
pressure for new features to meet deadlines (dropping 3 months less of an
issue)
I'm happy with either, but I don't think the current situation with lots of
changes / things still being donated is a good model for how this might
work once the dust settles.
Best wishes,
Neil
>
Re: [DISCUSS] Apache NetBeans roadmap updates
Posted by Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com>.
Two releases per year seems more manageable.
--emi
On Tue, Nov 13, 2018 at 3:19 PM Geertjan Wielenga
<ge...@googlemail.com.invalid> wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> We've completed the NetCAT process (on the functioning of the convenience binary of Apache NetBeans 10) and the PPMC vote (on the sources of Apache NetBeans 10).
>
> Right now, the IPMC (the incubator project management committee) is voting on the sources of Apache NetBeans 10, since Apache NetBeans is in the Apache Incubator. (We're going to be voting to get out of the Apache Incubator very soon, with support from our mentors, since they're happy with how we're working as a community and consider us to be ready to be a top level Apache project.)
>
> So, what's next? After we release Apache NetBeans 10, we'll start working on the next release. Consensus on the dev mailing list has formed around quarterly releases. In the NetCAT process, we found that there was quite some time pressure to get things done and maybe we should take more time and thereby be able to provide more quality.
>
> As a result, here's a proposal to do two major releases next year, in line with JDK 12 and 13 in March and September, with two optional minor releases in between (e.g., a bug fix release could be great). Of course, Apache NetBeans does not serve the Java community only, though those two months of March and September are fairly spaced anyway and potentially could allow us to provide bundles with those JDKs if and when that were to be possible.
>
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Apache+NetBeans+Release+Roadmap
>
> There are several significant bugs that we need to nail down and resolve, we can include them in the upcoming releases or distribute them via plugins. We're I'm sure all very aware of several problems, as well as features that need to be added -- we need everyone to be proactive in pinning down bugs and in providing code contributions for missing features.
>
> Comments welcome, and many thanks for all the hard and enthusiastic work done so far.
>
> Gj
>
>
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Re: [DISCUSS] Apache NetBeans roadmap updates
Posted by Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com>.
Two releases per year seems more manageable.
--emi
On Tue, Nov 13, 2018 at 3:19 PM Geertjan Wielenga
<ge...@googlemail.com.invalid> wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> We've completed the NetCAT process (on the functioning of the convenience binary of Apache NetBeans 10) and the PPMC vote (on the sources of Apache NetBeans 10).
>
> Right now, the IPMC (the incubator project management committee) is voting on the sources of Apache NetBeans 10, since Apache NetBeans is in the Apache Incubator. (We're going to be voting to get out of the Apache Incubator very soon, with support from our mentors, since they're happy with how we're working as a community and consider us to be ready to be a top level Apache project.)
>
> So, what's next? After we release Apache NetBeans 10, we'll start working on the next release. Consensus on the dev mailing list has formed around quarterly releases. In the NetCAT process, we found that there was quite some time pressure to get things done and maybe we should take more time and thereby be able to provide more quality.
>
> As a result, here's a proposal to do two major releases next year, in line with JDK 12 and 13 in March and September, with two optional minor releases in between (e.g., a bug fix release could be great). Of course, Apache NetBeans does not serve the Java community only, though those two months of March and September are fairly spaced anyway and potentially could allow us to provide bundles with those JDKs if and when that were to be possible.
>
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Apache+NetBeans+Release+Roadmap
>
> There are several significant bugs that we need to nail down and resolve, we can include them in the upcoming releases or distribute them via plugins. We're I'm sure all very aware of several problems, as well as features that need to be added -- we need everyone to be proactive in pinning down bugs and in providing code contributions for missing features.
>
> Comments welcome, and many thanks for all the hard and enthusiastic work done so far.
>
> Gj
>
>
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Re: [DISCUSS] Apache NetBeans roadmap updates
Posted by Emilian Bold <em...@gmail.com>.
Two releases per year seems more manageable.
--emi
On Tue, Nov 13, 2018 at 3:19 PM Geertjan Wielenga
<ge...@googlemail.com.invalid> wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> We've completed the NetCAT process (on the functioning of the convenience binary of Apache NetBeans 10) and the PPMC vote (on the sources of Apache NetBeans 10).
>
> Right now, the IPMC (the incubator project management committee) is voting on the sources of Apache NetBeans 10, since Apache NetBeans is in the Apache Incubator. (We're going to be voting to get out of the Apache Incubator very soon, with support from our mentors, since they're happy with how we're working as a community and consider us to be ready to be a top level Apache project.)
>
> So, what's next? After we release Apache NetBeans 10, we'll start working on the next release. Consensus on the dev mailing list has formed around quarterly releases. In the NetCAT process, we found that there was quite some time pressure to get things done and maybe we should take more time and thereby be able to provide more quality.
>
> As a result, here's a proposal to do two major releases next year, in line with JDK 12 and 13 in March and September, with two optional minor releases in between (e.g., a bug fix release could be great). Of course, Apache NetBeans does not serve the Java community only, though those two months of March and September are fairly spaced anyway and potentially could allow us to provide bundles with those JDKs if and when that were to be possible.
>
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Apache+NetBeans+Release+Roadmap
>
> There are several significant bugs that we need to nail down and resolve, we can include them in the upcoming releases or distribute them via plugins. We're I'm sure all very aware of several problems, as well as features that need to be added -- we need everyone to be proactive in pinning down bugs and in providing code contributions for missing features.
>
> Comments welcome, and many thanks for all the hard and enthusiastic work done so far.
>
> Gj
>
>
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Re: [DISCUSS] Apache NetBeans roadmap updates
Posted by Josh Juneau <ju...@gmail.com>.
Indeed, you are correct Geertjan. I think we are on the same page. Thanks
for the proposal...looks great.
On Wed, Nov 14, 2018 at 8:47 AM Geertjan Wielenga
<ge...@googlemail.com.invalid> wrote:
> The proposal is exactly as we are all arguing for — including Neil and
> Chris — a quarterly release cycle, though with two major releases synced
> with JDK releases and two smaller releases in between with shortened NetCAT
> cycles, plus once we’re top level out of the incubator we won’t have the
> IPMC vote, which will speed up releases too.
>
> I think we may all be on the same page.
>
> Gj
>
>
> On Wednesday, November 14, 2018, Josh Juneau <ju...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Yes...perfect. Sorry I did not refer to the proposal. Looked at it
> > yesterday and responded today...
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> > On Wed, Nov 14, 2018 at 8:21 AM Geertjan Wielenga <
> > geertjan.wielenga@googlemail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> But that’s exactly what the proposal says, right?
> >>
> >> Gj
> >>
> >>
> >> On Wednesday, November 14, 2018, Josh Juneau <ju...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>
> >>> I like the idea of two major releases each year...those being releases
> >>> incorporating new functionality. However, I think it would be a good
> idea
> >>> to have patch releases in-between...making for a total of four releases
> >>> each year.
> >>>
> >>> Josh
> >>>
> >>> On Tue, Nov 13, 2018 at 7:19 AM Geertjan Wielenga
> >>> <ge...@googlemail.com.invalid> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Hi all,
> >>>>
> >>>> We've completed the NetCAT process (on the functioning of the
> >>>> convenience binary of Apache NetBeans 10) and the PPMC vote (on the
> sources
> >>>> of Apache NetBeans 10).
> >>>>
> >>>> Right now, the IPMC (the incubator project management committee) is
> >>>> voting on the sources of Apache NetBeans 10, since Apache NetBeans is
> in
> >>>> the Apache Incubator. (We're going to be voting to get out of the
> Apache
> >>>> Incubator very soon, with support from our mentors, since they're
> happy
> >>>> with how we're working as a community and consider us to be ready to
> be a
> >>>> top level Apache project.)
> >>>>
> >>>> So, what's next? After we release Apache NetBeans 10, we'll start
> >>>> working on the next release. Consensus on the dev mailing list has
> formed
> >>>> around quarterly releases. In the NetCAT process, we found that there
> was
> >>>> quite some time pressure to get things done and maybe we should take
> more
> >>>> time and thereby be able to provide more quality.
> >>>>
> >>>> As a result, here's a proposal to do two major releases next year, in
> >>>> line with JDK 12 and 13 in March and September, with two optional
> minor
> >>>> releases in between (e.g., a bug fix release could be great). Of
> course,
> >>>> Apache NetBeans does not serve the Java community only, though those
> two
> >>>> months of March and September are fairly spaced anyway and potentially
> >>>> could allow us to provide bundles with those JDKs if and when that
> were to
> >>>> be possible.
> >>>>
> >>>> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/
> >>>> Apache+NetBeans+Release+Roadmap
> >>>>
> >>>> There are several significant bugs that we need to nail down and
> >>>> resolve, we can include them in the upcoming releases or distribute
> them
> >>>> via plugins. We're I'm sure all very aware of several problems, as
> well as
> >>>> features that need to be added -- we need everyone to be proactive in
> >>>> pinning down bugs and in providing code contributions for missing
> features.
> >>>>
> >>>> Comments welcome, and many thanks for all the hard and enthusiastic
> >>>> work done so far.
> >>>>
> >>>> Gj
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> --
> >>> Josh Juneau
> >>> juneau001@gmail.com
> >>> http://jj-blogger.blogspot.com
> >>> https://www.apress.com/index.php/author/author/view/id/1866
> >>>
> >>> --
> > Josh Juneau
> > juneau001@gmail.com
> > http://jj-blogger.blogspot.com
> > https://www.apress.com/index.php/author/author/view/id/1866
> >
> >
>
--
Josh Juneau
juneau001@gmail.com
http://jj-blogger.blogspot.com
https://www.apress.com/index.php/author/author/view/id/1866
Re: [DISCUSS] Apache NetBeans roadmap updates
Posted by Geertjan Wielenga <ge...@googlemail.com.INVALID>.
The proposal is exactly as we are all arguing for — including Neil and
Chris — a quarterly release cycle, though with two major releases synced
with JDK releases and two smaller releases in between with shortened NetCAT
cycles, plus once we’re top level out of the incubator we won’t have the
IPMC vote, which will speed up releases too.
I think we may all be on the same page.
Gj
On Wednesday, November 14, 2018, Josh Juneau <ju...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Yes...perfect. Sorry I did not refer to the proposal. Looked at it
> yesterday and responded today...
>
> Thanks
>
> On Wed, Nov 14, 2018 at 8:21 AM Geertjan Wielenga <
> geertjan.wielenga@googlemail.com> wrote:
>
>> But that’s exactly what the proposal says, right?
>>
>> Gj
>>
>>
>> On Wednesday, November 14, 2018, Josh Juneau <ju...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I like the idea of two major releases each year...those being releases
>>> incorporating new functionality. However, I think it would be a good idea
>>> to have patch releases in-between...making for a total of four releases
>>> each year.
>>>
>>> Josh
>>>
>>> On Tue, Nov 13, 2018 at 7:19 AM Geertjan Wielenga
>>> <ge...@googlemail.com.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi all,
>>>>
>>>> We've completed the NetCAT process (on the functioning of the
>>>> convenience binary of Apache NetBeans 10) and the PPMC vote (on the sources
>>>> of Apache NetBeans 10).
>>>>
>>>> Right now, the IPMC (the incubator project management committee) is
>>>> voting on the sources of Apache NetBeans 10, since Apache NetBeans is in
>>>> the Apache Incubator. (We're going to be voting to get out of the Apache
>>>> Incubator very soon, with support from our mentors, since they're happy
>>>> with how we're working as a community and consider us to be ready to be a
>>>> top level Apache project.)
>>>>
>>>> So, what's next? After we release Apache NetBeans 10, we'll start
>>>> working on the next release. Consensus on the dev mailing list has formed
>>>> around quarterly releases. In the NetCAT process, we found that there was
>>>> quite some time pressure to get things done and maybe we should take more
>>>> time and thereby be able to provide more quality.
>>>>
>>>> As a result, here's a proposal to do two major releases next year, in
>>>> line with JDK 12 and 13 in March and September, with two optional minor
>>>> releases in between (e.g., a bug fix release could be great). Of course,
>>>> Apache NetBeans does not serve the Java community only, though those two
>>>> months of March and September are fairly spaced anyway and potentially
>>>> could allow us to provide bundles with those JDKs if and when that were to
>>>> be possible.
>>>>
>>>> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/
>>>> Apache+NetBeans+Release+Roadmap
>>>>
>>>> There are several significant bugs that we need to nail down and
>>>> resolve, we can include them in the upcoming releases or distribute them
>>>> via plugins. We're I'm sure all very aware of several problems, as well as
>>>> features that need to be added -- we need everyone to be proactive in
>>>> pinning down bugs and in providing code contributions for missing features.
>>>>
>>>> Comments welcome, and many thanks for all the hard and enthusiastic
>>>> work done so far.
>>>>
>>>> Gj
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>> Josh Juneau
>>> juneau001@gmail.com
>>> http://jj-blogger.blogspot.com
>>> https://www.apress.com/index.php/author/author/view/id/1866
>>>
>>> --
> Josh Juneau
> juneau001@gmail.com
> http://jj-blogger.blogspot.com
> https://www.apress.com/index.php/author/author/view/id/1866
>
>
Re: [DISCUSS] Apache NetBeans roadmap updates
Posted by Josh Juneau <ju...@gmail.com>.
I like the idea of two major releases each year...those being releases
incorporating new functionality. However, I think it would be a good idea
to have patch releases in-between...making for a total of four releases
each year.
Josh
On Tue, Nov 13, 2018 at 7:19 AM Geertjan Wielenga
<ge...@googlemail.com.invalid> wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> We've completed the NetCAT process (on the functioning of the convenience
> binary of Apache NetBeans 10) and the PPMC vote (on the sources of Apache
> NetBeans 10).
>
> Right now, the IPMC (the incubator project management committee) is voting
> on the sources of Apache NetBeans 10, since Apache NetBeans is in the
> Apache Incubator. (We're going to be voting to get out of the Apache
> Incubator very soon, with support from our mentors, since they're happy
> with how we're working as a community and consider us to be ready to be a
> top level Apache project.)
>
> So, what's next? After we release Apache NetBeans 10, we'll start working
> on the next release. Consensus on the dev mailing list has formed around
> quarterly releases. In the NetCAT process, we found that there was quite
> some time pressure to get things done and maybe we should take more time
> and thereby be able to provide more quality.
>
> As a result, here's a proposal to do two major releases next year, in line
> with JDK 12 and 13 in March and September, with two optional minor releases
> in between (e.g., a bug fix release could be great). Of course, Apache
> NetBeans does not serve the Java community only, though those two months of
> March and September are fairly spaced anyway and potentially could allow us
> to provide bundles with those JDKs if and when that were to be possible.
>
>
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Apache+NetBeans+Release+Roadmap
>
> There are several significant bugs that we need to nail down and resolve,
> we can include them in the upcoming releases or distribute them via
> plugins. We're I'm sure all very aware of several problems, as well as
> features that need to be added -- we need everyone to be proactive in
> pinning down bugs and in providing code contributions for missing features.
>
> Comments welcome, and many thanks for all the hard and enthusiastic work
> done so far.
>
> Gj
>
>
> --
Josh Juneau
juneau001@gmail.com
http://jj-blogger.blogspot.com
https://www.apress.com/index.php/author/author/view/id/1866
Re: [DISCUSS] Apache NetBeans roadmap updates
Posted by Josh Juneau <ju...@gmail.com>.
I like the idea of two major releases each year...those being releases
incorporating new functionality. However, I think it would be a good idea
to have patch releases in-between...making for a total of four releases
each year.
Josh
On Tue, Nov 13, 2018 at 7:19 AM Geertjan Wielenga
<ge...@googlemail.com.invalid> wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> We've completed the NetCAT process (on the functioning of the convenience
> binary of Apache NetBeans 10) and the PPMC vote (on the sources of Apache
> NetBeans 10).
>
> Right now, the IPMC (the incubator project management committee) is voting
> on the sources of Apache NetBeans 10, since Apache NetBeans is in the
> Apache Incubator. (We're going to be voting to get out of the Apache
> Incubator very soon, with support from our mentors, since they're happy
> with how we're working as a community and consider us to be ready to be a
> top level Apache project.)
>
> So, what's next? After we release Apache NetBeans 10, we'll start working
> on the next release. Consensus on the dev mailing list has formed around
> quarterly releases. In the NetCAT process, we found that there was quite
> some time pressure to get things done and maybe we should take more time
> and thereby be able to provide more quality.
>
> As a result, here's a proposal to do two major releases next year, in line
> with JDK 12 and 13 in March and September, with two optional minor releases
> in between (e.g., a bug fix release could be great). Of course, Apache
> NetBeans does not serve the Java community only, though those two months of
> March and September are fairly spaced anyway and potentially could allow us
> to provide bundles with those JDKs if and when that were to be possible.
>
>
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Apache+NetBeans+Release+Roadmap
>
> There are several significant bugs that we need to nail down and resolve,
> we can include them in the upcoming releases or distribute them via
> plugins. We're I'm sure all very aware of several problems, as well as
> features that need to be added -- we need everyone to be proactive in
> pinning down bugs and in providing code contributions for missing features.
>
> Comments welcome, and many thanks for all the hard and enthusiastic work
> done so far.
>
> Gj
>
>
> --
Josh Juneau
juneau001@gmail.com
http://jj-blogger.blogspot.com
https://www.apress.com/index.php/author/author/view/id/1866
Re: [DISCUSS] Apache NetBeans roadmap updates
Posted by Josh Juneau <ju...@gmail.com>.
I like the idea of two major releases each year...those being releases
incorporating new functionality. However, I think it would be a good idea
to have patch releases in-between...making for a total of four releases
each year.
Josh
On Tue, Nov 13, 2018 at 7:19 AM Geertjan Wielenga
<ge...@googlemail.com.invalid> wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> We've completed the NetCAT process (on the functioning of the convenience
> binary of Apache NetBeans 10) and the PPMC vote (on the sources of Apache
> NetBeans 10).
>
> Right now, the IPMC (the incubator project management committee) is voting
> on the sources of Apache NetBeans 10, since Apache NetBeans is in the
> Apache Incubator. (We're going to be voting to get out of the Apache
> Incubator very soon, with support from our mentors, since they're happy
> with how we're working as a community and consider us to be ready to be a
> top level Apache project.)
>
> So, what's next? After we release Apache NetBeans 10, we'll start working
> on the next release. Consensus on the dev mailing list has formed around
> quarterly releases. In the NetCAT process, we found that there was quite
> some time pressure to get things done and maybe we should take more time
> and thereby be able to provide more quality.
>
> As a result, here's a proposal to do two major releases next year, in line
> with JDK 12 and 13 in March and September, with two optional minor releases
> in between (e.g., a bug fix release could be great). Of course, Apache
> NetBeans does not serve the Java community only, though those two months of
> March and September are fairly spaced anyway and potentially could allow us
> to provide bundles with those JDKs if and when that were to be possible.
>
>
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/NETBEANS/Apache+NetBeans+Release+Roadmap
>
> There are several significant bugs that we need to nail down and resolve,
> we can include them in the upcoming releases or distribute them via
> plugins. We're I'm sure all very aware of several problems, as well as
> features that need to be added -- we need everyone to be proactive in
> pinning down bugs and in providing code contributions for missing features.
>
> Comments welcome, and many thanks for all the hard and enthusiastic work
> done so far.
>
> Gj
>
>
> --
Josh Juneau
juneau001@gmail.com
http://jj-blogger.blogspot.com
https://www.apress.com/index.php/author/author/view/id/1866