You are viewing a plain text version of this content. The canonical link for it is here.
Posted to general@jakarta.apache.org by Peter Donald <pe...@apache.org> on 2002/08/03 02:03:44 UTC
Sun saids Opensource is bad
http://www.oetrends.com/cgi-bin/page_display.cgi?77
And that is why I am glad that jakarta is starting to get .Net technologies on
board.
--
Cheers,
Peter Donald
*----------------------------------------------------------*
The phrase "computer literate user" really means the person
has been hurt so many times that the scar tissue is thick
enough so he no longer feels the pain.
-- Alan Cooper, The Inmates are Running the Asylum
*----------------------------------------------------------*
--
To unsubscribe, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
For additional commands, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
RE: Sun saids Opensource is bad
Posted by Ceki Gülcü <ce...@qos.ch>.
Microsoft has been very good at killing competition not innovating:
http://www.upside.com/texis/mvm/print-it?id=3d3de01d1&t=
For good measure, here is the first article of the Sherman Antitrust
Act:
1. SHERMAN ANTITRUST ACT, 15 U.S.C. §§ 1-7
Trusts, etc., in restraint of trade illegal, penalty
Every contract, combination in the form of trust or otherwise, or
conspiracy, in restraint of trade or commerce among the several
States, or with foreign nations, is declared to be illegal. Every
person who shall make any contract or engage in any combination or
conspiracy hereby declared to be illegal shall be deemed guilty of a
felony, and, on conviction thereof, shall be punished by fine not
exceeding $10,000,000 if a corporation, or, if any other person,
$350,000, or by imprisonment not exceeding three years, or by both
said punishments, in the discretion of the court.
Coming back to the original article that started all this, Scott
McNealy is not exactly a synonym for Sun Inc. Any CEO can be fired,
and this one will be, probably sooner than later -- unless he owns a
large portion of Sun stock whereby he could block any such move.
At 12:40 04.08.2002 -0700, mwomack@apache.org wrote:
><my_opinion start_flame_war="false">
>Microsoft has always been very good at eating other company's lunches. I
>don't think they have been very spectacular at innovating themselves, but
>they are able to spot important marketplace trends and then do a great job
>of creating their own products around them. Those products generally start
>out crappy, but over time they get better and better and eventually destroy
>the competition; competition that decided they were invincible, could not
>recognize the next steps to take, or did not recognize the threat.
>Microsoft changes the landscape, co-opts the competition's value, etc.
>Maybe it is because they are smart or maybe it is because they have
>overwhelming resources.
>
>If Apache/open source begins to take the .Net stuff seriously enough to
>start related projects, it will be very interesting to see how that affects
>things this time around.
></my_opinion>
>
>-Mark
--
Ceki
--
To unsubscribe, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
For additional commands, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
RE: Sun saids Opensource is bad
Posted by mw...@apache.org.
> At 20:50 03.08.2002 -0700, mwomack@apache.org wrote:
>
> >I think Sun is in a real pickle right now because with the cut backs and
> >failures, many companies do not want to spend the big bucks that
> the current
> >crop of certified commercial Java products charge or the high priced Sun
> >hardware to run them. The prices are outrageous. This is
> giving .NET and
> >lower cost, non-certified Java products traction. More power to
> certifying
> >open source products. If the commercial companies cannot find a
> way to add
> >value and compete, then they should be winnowed from the
> marketplace. IMHO.
> >Long live the marketplace.
>
> It is always good to strike a balance. Not everything should be market
> driven.
I do agree with this. But "those that live by the marketplace, die by the
marketplace". Commercial companies must compete for resources in the
marketplace. If they cannot compete, they die or get destroyed. Whining
about how the market landscape has changed to take away whatever innovations
or leads they once maintained isn't going anywhere, and deomnstrates a lack
of understanding on their part. It suggests they are not focusing on the
right things to be successful.
> In the case of software, there is always only one winner:
> Microsoft. And unfortunately, the more they win the easier they win
> the next time.
<my_opinion start_flame_war="false">
Microsoft has always been very good at eating other company's lunches. I
don't think they have been very spectacular at innovating themselves, but
they are able to spot important marketplace trends and then do a great job
of creating their own products around them. Those products generally start
out crappy, but over time they get better and better and eventually destroy
the competition; competition that decided they were invincible, could not
recognize the next steps to take, or did not recognize the threat.
Microsoft changes the landscape, co-opts the competition's value, etc.
Maybe it is because they are smart or maybe it is because they have
overwhelming resources.
If Apache/open source begins to take the .Net stuff seriously enough to
start related projects, it will be very interesting to see how that affects
things this time around.
</my_opinion>
-Mark
--
To unsubscribe, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
For additional commands, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
RE: Sun saids Opensource is bad
Posted by Ceki Gülcü <ce...@qos.ch>.
At 20:50 03.08.2002 -0700, mwomack@apache.org wrote:
>I think Sun is in a real pickle right now because with the cut backs and
>failures, many companies do not want to spend the big bucks that the current
>crop of certified commercial Java products charge or the high priced Sun
>hardware to run them. The prices are outrageous. This is giving .NET and
>lower cost, non-certified Java products traction. More power to certifying
>open source products. If the commercial companies cannot find a way to add
>value and compete, then they should be winnowed from the marketplace. IMHO.
>Long live the marketplace.
It is always good to strike a balance. Not everything should be market
driven. Here is an explanation:
http://bostonreview.mit.edu/BR27.3/bollier.html
In the case of software, there is always only one winner:
Microsoft. And unfortunately, the more they win the easier they win
the next time.
>-Mark
--
Ceki
--
To unsubscribe, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
For additional commands, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
RE: Sun saids Opensource is bad
Posted by Berin Loritsch <bl...@apache.org>.
> From: Scott Tavares [mailto:stavares@cox.net]
>
> > "Scott Tavares" <st...@cox.net> wrote:
> >
> > > Here we go again... M$ is now trying to take over Apache!
> Please GOD
> Help
> > > us!!!! Anyone got that phone number to become a tractor trailer
> anywhere?
> > > I'd rather change profferesions then get in bed with M$
> > >
> > > [VOTE] KEEP M$ off Apache!
> > >
> > > I for one would rather see it die then be infested with M$ crap!
> >
> > Wrong. First, we're talking about a LANGUAGE (C#), not M$ crap...
>
> you CAN NOT separate C# from M$ and .NET! they own the copy
> write to it (period)! That means at any time they see fit,
> they can change the license and they will (Ooops... what Mono
> and the ECMA do when they have to PAY to use M$'s property?)!
> Just look at the history of M$.
The ECMA will decertify C#, and it will lose its open status.
Or, the version of C# that was last certified is branched and Mono
supports the certified version and M$ is left in the same position
as it was with Java support.
Either way, BOTH ECMA/Mono AND M$ lose. The market will be split,
and M$ lackies will go with M$.
Granted, I have not seen ANY new language that has done a good job
of making it necessary for a switch since Java. C++ is an excellent
language, and it does a good job for what it does. I work with C++
all the time. However, I really like Java as well. Java answered
some real issues such as binary compatibility, dynamic class loading,
integrated security model, and memory management. Those issues are
what caused several people to make the jump from C++ to Java.
That said, I haven't seen anything that addresses the ills of Java/C++
well enough to force a switch. There isn't a demonstrated need of
the types of problems that C# answers better than either C++ or Java.
Sure there is the ability to use native libraries and have that a lot
easier than the JNI (why tie Java to C instead of C++???).
C# doesn't make things like intelligent agents (artificial intelligence)
easier to implement, it doesn't do a better job at memory management
(it is the same as Java).
D suffers from the same ailments as C#. It is better than C++ for some
things, but it isn't as good as Java in many respects. I would like
to see better support for truly open languages like C++/D than ones that
are tied to a controlling corporation like Java/C#. But that's my
personal oppinion.
Being one of those Avalon developers, I find the patterns and design
principles in that project to be top notch. Therefore, I would like to
see the C#/D/C++/etc. variations that leverage those patterns in a
language specific way. That way, you don't have to relearn how to use
it--you just need to learn the syntax for whatever language you want to
use in your project.
It has nothing to do with the political ties of corporations though.
--
To unsubscribe, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
For additional commands, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
Re: Sun saids Opensource is bad
Posted by Scott Tavares <st...@cox.net>.
> "Scott Tavares" <st...@cox.net> wrote:
>
> > Here we go again... M$ is now trying to take over Apache! Please GOD
Help
> > us!!!! Anyone got that phone number to become a tractor trailer
anywhere?
> > I'd rather change profferesions then get in bed with M$
> >
> > [VOTE] KEEP M$ off Apache!
> >
> > I for one would rather see it die then be infested with M$ crap!
>
> Wrong. First, we're talking about a LANGUAGE (C#), not M$ crap...
you CAN NOT separate C# from M$ and .NET! they own the copy write to it
(period)! That means at any time they see fit, they can change the license
and they will (Ooops... what Mono and the ECMA do when they have to PAY to
use M$'s property?)! Just look at the history of M$.
A. New company invents new innovative technology (in this case OS in
general) that clashes with M$.
B. M$ cozies up to new company with promise of free and unrestrained access
to M$'s current customer base.
C. M$ steals the "new innovative technology" by "extending the API" to
strongly tie to Windoz.
D. M$ puts the new company OUT-OF-BUSINESS (to the determent of the
consumer).
E. M$ charges all consumers a fee for the privilege of using "their"
technology.
How many times can they do this before people wake the F up and see through
it! Its the same old tired game M$ has always used and its the dump Fs that
always fall for it! As soon as M$ has enough votes on the PMC (and they will
get vores on the PMC) they will OWN IT! And if you put it past them from
trying to pull a stunt like this, you're a fool. They have done it! Gotten
away with it! Because no one believes that they would do it.
Please see the big picture, M$ has had and has and always will have the
interest of only one eneity in mind (in EVERYTHING they do) and that is M$.
This philosophy is inherently is anti-innovation, anti-consumer. If that's
the world you want to live in, then keep on spweing M$'s propaganda.
>And Finally, if M$
> wants to jump on the Apache bandwagon, by playing with OUR rules, well,
I'm
> not going to stop them
As I said, they can play by "OUR rules", get votes on the PMC and take it
over and change "OUR rules" to theirs!
-ScottTavares-
stavares@cox.net
KEEP APACHE FREE - KILL C# .NET and M$
--
To unsubscribe, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
For additional commands, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
Re: Sun saids Opensource is bad
Posted by "Geir Magnusson Jr." <ge...@adeptra.com>.
On 8/4/02 7:02 PM, "Steve Giovannetti" <st...@hubcitymedia.com> wrote:
> No. I just don't think J2EE is as proprietary as the options coming from
> M$. Sure $un would love to be in the position that M$ is in but they
> really have not positioned their technologies that way. Think of it this
> way. If $un were to go out of business tomorrow would J2EE disapear? I
> don't think so.
Depends, doesn't it? Suppose MSFT bought the copyrights to the J2EE spec...
--
Geir Magnusson Jr.
Research & Development, Adeptra Inc.
geirm@adeptra.com
+1-203-247-1713
--
To unsubscribe, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
For additional commands, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
Re: Sun saids Opensource is bad
Posted by Steve Giovannetti <st...@hubcitymedia.com>.
No. I just don't think J2EE is as proprietary as the options coming from
M$. Sure $un would love to be in the position that M$ is in but they
really have not positioned their technologies that way. Think of it this
way. If $un were to go out of business tomorrow would J2EE disapear? I
don't think so.
On Sun, 2002-08-04 at 15:47, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
> So in your view being dominated and forced to implement $un & friends
> proprietary tech is
> better than M$ proprietary tech? I fail to see the difference.
>
> $un is just Micro$oft without every having a big big commercial hit like
> Windows 3.x (Oh and add $uns
> incompetance at marketing commercial software products). If $un had
> managed it, then we'd still be here, having this same conversation in
> reverse.
>
> $un IS Micro$oft, they just aren't as good at it.
>
> -Andy
>
> Steve Giovannetti wrote:
>
> >Frankly, ASF can do whatever it wants to do with respect to sponsoring
> >or "branding" open source projects. If there is a community of folks out
> >there willing to go C# and port some projects more power to them. In the
> >same light Sun is free to do what it thinks is best for their
> >shareholders. We as developers must also do what is best for our
> >clients. Everything else is bull.
> >Long diatribes on the inherit evil in M$ or J2EE are pretty
> >unproductive. That isn't to say I'm not without feelings on the subject.
> >I'm no fan of M$. I've had better professional luck without them. I am
> >looking very seriously at .Net technologies, even though they lead
> >eventually to Redmond. Mono project or not companies that commit to .Net
> >and that includes C# will eventually purchase closed source solutions
> >from M$. While I applaud the efforts of the Mono Project I fear the
> >fruits of their labor will do more to hurt open source than to help it.
> >Just wait until their implementation gets real enough to become a threat
> >and you'll see the lawsuits fly.
> >
> >Steve Giovannetti
> >
> >On Sun, 2002-08-04 at 14:44, cmanolache@yahoo.com wrote:
> >
> >
> >>On Sun, 4 Aug 2002, Pier Fumagalli wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>>Wrong. First, we're talking about a LANGUAGE (C#), not M$ crap... Actually,
> >>>
> >>>
> >>I think we should wait first to see httpd and APR rewritten in C#.
> >>
> >>If that's so great I'm sure they'll drop C the moment mono has the
> >>first release, and get all the benefits of an ECMA and open language
> >>as oposed to the antiquated C.
> >>
> >>Costin
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>--
> >>To unsubscribe, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
> >>For additional commands, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
> For additional commands, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
>
>
Re: Sun saids Opensource is bad
Posted by Pier Fumagalli <pi...@betaversion.org>.
"Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org> wrote:
> $un IS Micro$oft, they just aren't as good at it.
+1 ! :)
Pier
--
To unsubscribe, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
For additional commands, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
Re: Sun saids Opensource is bad
Posted by "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org>.
So in your view being dominated and forced to implement $un & friends
proprietary tech is
better than M$ proprietary tech? I fail to see the difference.
$un is just Micro$oft without every having a big big commercial hit like
Windows 3.x (Oh and add $uns
incompetance at marketing commercial software products). If $un had
managed it, then we'd still be here, having this same conversation in
reverse.
$un IS Micro$oft, they just aren't as good at it.
-Andy
Steve Giovannetti wrote:
>Frankly, ASF can do whatever it wants to do with respect to sponsoring
>or "branding" open source projects. If there is a community of folks out
>there willing to go C# and port some projects more power to them. In the
>same light Sun is free to do what it thinks is best for their
>shareholders. We as developers must also do what is best for our
>clients. Everything else is bull.
>Long diatribes on the inherit evil in M$ or J2EE are pretty
>unproductive. That isn't to say I'm not without feelings on the subject.
>I'm no fan of M$. I've had better professional luck without them. I am
>looking very seriously at .Net technologies, even though they lead
>eventually to Redmond. Mono project or not companies that commit to .Net
>and that includes C# will eventually purchase closed source solutions
>from M$. While I applaud the efforts of the Mono Project I fear the
>fruits of their labor will do more to hurt open source than to help it.
>Just wait until their implementation gets real enough to become a threat
>and you'll see the lawsuits fly.
>
>Steve Giovannetti
>
>On Sun, 2002-08-04 at 14:44, cmanolache@yahoo.com wrote:
>
>
>>On Sun, 4 Aug 2002, Pier Fumagalli wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>Wrong. First, we're talking about a LANGUAGE (C#), not M$ crap... Actually,
>>>
>>>
>>I think we should wait first to see httpd and APR rewritten in C#.
>>
>>If that's so great I'm sure they'll drop C the moment mono has the
>>first release, and get all the benefits of an ECMA and open language
>>as oposed to the antiquated C.
>>
>>Costin
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>--
>>To unsubscribe, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
>>For additional commands, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
--
To unsubscribe, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
For additional commands, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
Re: Sun saids Opensource is bad
Posted by Steve Giovannetti <st...@hubcitymedia.com>.
Frankly, ASF can do whatever it wants to do with respect to sponsoring
or "branding" open source projects. If there is a community of folks out
there willing to go C# and port some projects more power to them. In the
same light Sun is free to do what it thinks is best for their
shareholders. We as developers must also do what is best for our
clients. Everything else is bull.
Long diatribes on the inherit evil in M$ or J2EE are pretty
unproductive. That isn't to say I'm not without feelings on the subject.
I'm no fan of M$. I've had better professional luck without them. I am
looking very seriously at .Net technologies, even though they lead
eventually to Redmond. Mono project or not companies that commit to .Net
and that includes C# will eventually purchase closed source solutions
from M$. While I applaud the efforts of the Mono Project I fear the
fruits of their labor will do more to hurt open source than to help it.
Just wait until their implementation gets real enough to become a threat
and you'll see the lawsuits fly.
Steve Giovannetti
On Sun, 2002-08-04 at 14:44, cmanolache@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Sun, 4 Aug 2002, Pier Fumagalli wrote:
>
> > Wrong. First, we're talking about a LANGUAGE (C#), not M$ crap... Actually,
>
> I think we should wait first to see httpd and APR rewritten in C#.
>
> If that's so great I'm sure they'll drop C the moment mono has the
> first release, and get all the benefits of an ECMA and open language
> as oposed to the antiquated C.
>
> Costin
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
> For additional commands, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
>
>
Re: Sun saids Opensource is bad
Posted by Pier Fumagalli <pi...@betaversion.org>.
"cmanolache@yahoo.com" <cm...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 4 Aug 2002, Pier Fumagalli wrote:
>
>> Wrong. First, we're talking about a LANGUAGE (C#), not M$ crap... Actually,
>
> I think we should wait first to see httpd and APR rewritten in C#.
>
> If that's so great I'm sure they'll drop C the moment mono has the
> first release, and get all the benefits of an ECMA and open language
> as oposed to the antiquated C.
You didn't understand a single word.
--
To unsubscribe, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
For additional commands, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
Re: Sun saids Opensource is bad
Posted by cm...@yahoo.com.
On Sun, 4 Aug 2002, Pier Fumagalli wrote:
> Wrong. First, we're talking about a LANGUAGE (C#), not M$ crap... Actually,
I think we should wait first to see httpd and APR rewritten in C#.
If that's so great I'm sure they'll drop C the moment mono has the
first release, and get all the benefits of an ECMA and open language
as oposed to the antiquated C.
Costin
--
To unsubscribe, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
For additional commands, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
Re: Sun saids Opensource is bad
Posted by Pier Fumagalli <pi...@betaversion.org>.
"Scott Tavares" <st...@cox.net> wrote:
> Here we go again... M$ is now trying to take over Apache! Please GOD Help
> us!!!! Anyone got that phone number to become a tractor trailer anywhere?
> I'd rather change profferesions then get in bed with M$
>
> [VOTE] KEEP M$ off Apache!
>
> I for one would rather see it die then be infested with M$ crap!
Wrong. First, we're talking about a LANGUAGE (C#), not M$ crap... Actually,
the language is not that bad, and not that different from Java, so, there is
no point... Second, ATM C# looks more open than Java, not only because of
Mono, but because it's trying to be an ECMA standard... And Finally, if M$
wants to jump on the Apache bandwagon, by playing with OUR rules, well, I'm
not going to stop them (you know that Greg Stein, author of mod_dav, worked
for a LONG time at M$, even when he was doing stuff for the ASF, right?)
Pier
--
To unsubscribe, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
For additional commands, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
Re: Sun saids Opensource is bad
Posted by Scott Tavares <st...@cox.net>.
Here we go again... M$ is now trying to take over Apache! Please GOD Help
us!!!! Anyone got that phone number to become a tractor trailer anywhere?
I'd rather change profferesions then get in bed with M$
[VOTE] KEEP M$ off Apache!
I for one would rather see it die then be infested with M$ crap!
----- Original Message -----
From: "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org>
To: "Jakarta General List" <ge...@jakarta.apache.org>
Sent: Sunday, August 04, 2002 8:57 AM
Subject: Re: Sun saids Opensource is bad
> What I think would be cool is a implementation of Tomcat running under
> C#/mono.
>
> Leo Simons wrote:
>
> >I'm buying some C# books right now; I just installed mono.
> >
> >Leo Simons
> >
> >On Sat, 2002-08-03 at 02:03, Peter Donald wrote:
> >
> >
> >>http://www.oetrends.com/cgi-bin/page_display.cgi?77
> >>
> >>And that is why I am glad that jakarta is starting to get .Net
technologies on
> >>board.
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >--
> >To unsubscribe, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
> >For additional commands, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
> For additional commands, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
>
--
To unsubscribe, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
For additional commands, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
Re: Sun saids Opensource is bad
Posted by "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org>.
What I think would be cool is a implementation of Tomcat running under
C#/mono.
Leo Simons wrote:
>I'm buying some C# books right now; I just installed mono.
>
>Leo Simons
>
>On Sat, 2002-08-03 at 02:03, Peter Donald wrote:
>
>
>>http://www.oetrends.com/cgi-bin/page_display.cgi?77
>>
>>And that is why I am glad that jakarta is starting to get .Net technologies on
>>board.
>>
>>
>
>
>
>--
>To unsubscribe, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
>For additional commands, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
>
>
>
>
--
To unsubscribe, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
For additional commands, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
Re: Sun saids Opensource is bad
Posted by Sam Ruby <ru...@intertwingly.net>.
mwomack@apache.org wrote:
> Can someone post a link to the Mono project?
http://www.go-mono.com/
- Sam Ruby
--
To unsubscribe, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
For additional commands, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
RE: Sun saids Opensource is bad
Posted by mw...@apache.org.
Can someone post a link to the Mono project?
-Mark
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Leo Simons [mailto:leosimons@apache.org]
> Sent: Sunday, August 04, 2002 5:48 AM
> To: Jakarta General List
> Subject: Re: Sun saids Opensource is bad
>
>
> I'm buying some C# books right now; I just installed mono.
>
> Leo Simons
>
> On Sat, 2002-08-03 at 02:03, Peter Donald wrote:
> >
> > http://www.oetrends.com/cgi-bin/page_display.cgi?77
> >
> > And that is why I am glad that jakarta is starting to get .Net
> technologies on
> > board.
>
>
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
> For additional commands, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
>
--
To unsubscribe, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
For additional commands, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
Re: Sun saids Opensource is bad
Posted by Leo Simons <le...@apache.org>.
I'm buying some C# books right now; I just installed mono.
Leo Simons
On Sat, 2002-08-03 at 02:03, Peter Donald wrote:
>
> http://www.oetrends.com/cgi-bin/page_display.cgi?77
>
> And that is why I am glad that jakarta is starting to get .Net technologies on
> board.
--
To unsubscribe, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
For additional commands, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
Re: Sun saids Opensource is bad
Posted by Pier Fumagalli <pi...@betaversion.org>.
"Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org> wrote:
> For Java alternatives, I'm becoming involved in www.opend.org. Consider
> contribution.
Hmm:
"C doesn't directly support assert, but does support __FILE__ and __LINE__
from which an assert macro can be built. In fact, there appears to be
practically no other use for __FILE__ and __LINE__. "
I believe that we can find few other uses for those two... Look at httpd...
Bah...
Pier
--
To unsubscribe, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
For additional commands, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
Re: Sun saids Opensource is bad
Posted by "Andrew C. Oliver" <ac...@apache.org>.
For Java alternatives, I'm becoming involved in www.opend.org. Consider
contribution.
Ceki Gülcü wrote:
> Scott McNealy is trying to shift the blame for Sun's recent
> difficulties. It's not me, it's those ruthless open-source people that
> are preventing the industry from making money. While the reader in
> this forum might find this claim outrageous, it is likely to sound
> plausible to CEOs and other top management.
>
> Let us not forget that behind many open-source contributions lie
> corporate dollars. With shrinking flow of resources from "benevolent"
> corporations, expect output of open-source projects to slow down in
> pace.
>
> Having said that, if the open-source movement begins to massively
> embrace products from Microsoft, then there is something very wrong in
> the world we live in. Of course, we massively embraced Java, which
> goes to prove my last statement. :-)
>
> Here is a very interesting article on open-source "economy".
> http://www.benkler.org/CoasesPenguin.PDF
>
> Don't be put off by the first few pages (I feel asleep).
>
> At 10:03 03.08.2002 +1000, Peter Donald wrote:
>
>> http://www.oetrends.com/cgi-bin/page_display.cgi?77
>>
>> And that is why I am glad that jakarta is starting to get .Net
>> technologies on
>> board.
>>
>> --
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Peter Donald
>
>
> --
> Ceki
>
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
> For additional commands, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
>
>
--
To unsubscribe, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
For additional commands, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
Re: Sun saids Opensource is bad
Posted by Ceki Gülcü <ce...@qos.ch>.
Scott McNealy is trying to shift the blame for Sun's recent
difficulties. It's not me, it's those ruthless open-source people that
are preventing the industry from making money. While the reader in
this forum might find this claim outrageous, it is likely to sound
plausible to CEOs and other top management.
Let us not forget that behind many open-source contributions lie
corporate dollars. With shrinking flow of resources from "benevolent"
corporations, expect output of open-source projects to slow down in
pace.
Having said that, if the open-source movement begins to massively
embrace products from Microsoft, then there is something very wrong in
the world we live in. Of course, we massively embraced Java, which
goes to prove my last statement. :-)
Here is a very interesting article on open-source "economy".
http://www.benkler.org/CoasesPenguin.PDF
Don't be put off by the first few pages (I feel asleep).
At 10:03 03.08.2002 +1000, Peter Donald wrote:
>http://www.oetrends.com/cgi-bin/page_display.cgi?77
>
>And that is why I am glad that jakarta is starting to get .Net
>technologies on
>board.
>
>--
>Cheers,
>
>Peter Donald
--
Ceki
--
To unsubscribe, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
For additional commands, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
RE: Sun saids Opensource is bad
Posted by Lavandowska <fl...@yahoo.com>.
--- mwomack@apache.org wrote:
> There was an article in either JavaPro or the Java Developers Journal
> (I > forget which one or which month, but I can find out) where a
JDJ, and it *was* depressing how poorly the Sun team "demonstrated"
their capabilities.
Lance
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com
--
To unsubscribe, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
For additional commands, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
RE: Sun saids Opensource is bad
Posted by mw...@apache.org.
"Q: JBoss has had a hard time getting J2EE certification. Do you think it's
important to have a certified open source J2EE implementation?
McNealy: No, we've already got one. It's called the Sun ONE app server. It's
certified. Do I think it's important? I don't know what that means."
With statements like this, I certainly question Sun's recent agreement with
Apache concerning certification of open source implementations. I think
McNealy is really off the mark with the above statement and all the
statements in the link.
There was an article in either JavaPro or the Java Developers Journal (I
forget which one or which month, but I can find out) where a user's group in
Arizona held a web services "showdown" between Sun and Microsoft
representatives. The article was fairly depressing. The Sun
representatives basically said "go with us because MS is evil and a
monopoly. We're open." No demos of a web service using Java. Microsoft
showed off how easy it was to create a web service using .NET in under 5
minutes. My impression from the article was that Sun doesn't really have a
good web services story to go up against the MS marketing juggernaut. There
is no product they can point to, no easy demo they can run, etc. And just
saying that MS is evil is not going to fly in the marketplace. Been there,
done that.
I went to a our local Java user group meeting about JSR-109 (web services)
and that was fairly depressing as well. Basically there are no shipping
containers for the JSR-109 specification (which is not final yet, to be
fair), bet even when it is finalized it sounds like it will be out of date
and behind the times. Of course, the speaker had great things to say about
the Axis project, and he used it extensively in his demos.
Sun needs to get off its butt and put more strength and resources into
creating the specifications and implementations (with partners, of course)
to combat the Microsoft products head-to-head. Saying that MS is evil or
that open source is undercutting commercial products is just stupid and will
fail.
I think Sun is in a real pickle right now because with the cut backs and
failures, many companies do not want to spend the big bucks that the current
crop of certified commercial Java products charge or the high priced Sun
hardware to run them. The prices are outrageous. This is giving .NET and
lower cost, non-certified Java products traction. More power to certifying
open source products. If the commercial companies cannot find a way to add
value and compete, then they should be winnowed from the marketplace. IMHO.
Long live the marketplace.
-Mark
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Peter Donald [mailto:peter@apache.org]
> Sent: Friday, August 02, 2002 5:04 PM
> To: Jakarta General List
> Subject: Sun saids Opensource is bad
>
>
>
> http://www.oetrends.com/cgi-bin/page_display.cgi?77
>
> And that is why I am glad that jakarta is starting to get .Net
> technologies on
> board.
>
> --
> Cheers,
>
> Peter Donald
> *----------------------------------------------------------*
> The phrase "computer literate user" really means the person
> has been hurt so many times that the scar tissue is thick
> enough so he no longer feels the pain.
> -- Alan Cooper, The Inmates are Running the Asylum
> *----------------------------------------------------------*
>
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
> For additional commands, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
>
--
To unsubscribe, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>
For additional commands, e-mail: <ma...@jakarta.apache.org>