Re: OT: whither are we going?

[Bill Stoddard <bi...@wstoddard.com>]

I've set on this for a week and decided I wasn't happy with it being the last word on the
topic.

> Jeff Stuart wrote:
> >
> > Roy, however, I do think that there is an implied responsibility for
> > apache since so much of the Internet USES it.
>
> Gaining market share has never been one of our goals.  Producing
> quality software has.  That so many people have decided to benefit
> from our work does not, and should not, shape our activities.  It
> speaks for the quality of the work we do -- but we didn't do it for
> their benefit.  It is just simply not on to expect us to change our
> goals, philosophy, and activities because of the opinions of users
> we never sought.  To even ask it could be considered insulting.
>
> > IMNSHO the Apache community is NOT just the developers.
>
> No, but it is the developers, and solely the developers, who
> decide on what they want to work.  Not some faceless mass of
> users.
>
> > IMNSHO when I write a program even if it's for one other
> > person, I have a responsibility to that person to maintain
> > it and fix the bugs in it that crop up.
>
> And therein lies the flaw in your argument.  We don't develop
> Apache for anyone else, and hence there is no responsibility
> to anyone else.  Others may benefit from our work, but that's
> coincidental.
> --
> #ken P-)}

Ken,
You just threw out the baby with the bath water... Pretty sure I understand the point you
are making, but you definitely missed the mark with the audience :-)

The Apache HTTP Server is nothing without our user community.  If people did not benefit
from my work here, I would leave. I have no interesting in writing C code for the sake of
writing C code. I suspect most of the developers here would agree.

Back when Apache was first written, the guys doing the coding were also running large
websites. For them, Apache was a means to an end; code that they could shape to solve the
problem of running a website. Your comments can easily be interpreted to mean that now
Apache http server development is an end unto itself. If this is really what you mean,
I -strongly- disagree. If Apache http server development does not satisfy a strong cross
section of our user community, we are dead. Are we beholden to any one user? No way. and
rather than complaining, concerned users can jump in and help us out.

And FWIW, I personally feel some responsbility to the Apache user community.

Bill

RE: OT: whither are we going?

[Ryan Bloom <rb...@covalent.net>]

> On Fri, Mar 08, 2002 at 11:26:58AM -0800, Ryan Bloom wrote:
> > I do that at my day job.  I do the Open Source work to get away from
the
> > annoying parts of programming that my day job delivers.  Please
don't
> > force that stuff on me during my relaxing time.
> 
> If you are interested in making a release, I think all that is
> needed is a heads-up email to the list before tagging (preferably
> a few days before tagging):
> 
> "Hey guys.  I'm considering tagging for a new release.  What do
> you think of that?  Are we stable?  Should I wait for a few
> days while some really important change gets in?
> Thanks, Your Humble Volunteer RM."

Since that was the release model that we started with, and specifically
left, I don't think that is a good idea.

Ryan

Re: OT: whither are we going?

[Justin Erenkrantz <je...@ebuilt.com>]

On Fri, Mar 08, 2002 at 11:26:58AM -0800, Ryan Bloom wrote:
> I do that at my day job.  I do the Open Source work to get away from the
> annoying parts of programming that my day job delivers.  Please don't
> force that stuff on me during my relaxing time.

If you are interested in making a release, I think all that is
needed is a heads-up email to the list before tagging (preferably
a few days before tagging):

"Hey guys.  I'm considering tagging for a new release.  What do
you think of that?  Are we stable?  Should I wait for a few
days while some really important change gets in?
Thanks, Your Humble Volunteer RM."

It doesn't have to be long-term at all - rather our OSS nature
implies that we only think short-term.  However, I think we should
always have a rough concept of what our *next* release will have.

There is a lot of parallel development going on and merely assuming
that you (or code that you have written) is ready for release
doesn't necessarily imply that everyone else's is.  -- justin

Re: OT: whither are we going?

[Rodent of Unusual Size <Ke...@Golux.Com>]

Justin Erenkrantz wrote:
> 
> I think we owe it to the other developers to have a project
> plan and a schedule of deliverables.  -- justin

That's an entirely different thing than owing it to the
user community.
-- 
#ken	P-)}

Ken Coar, Sanagendamgagwedweinini  http://Golux.Com/coar/
Author, developer, opinionist      http://Apache-Server.Com/

"Millennium hand and shrimp!"

RE: OT: whither are we going?

[Ryan Bloom <rb...@covalent.net>]

 
> On Fri, Mar 08, 2002 at 02:47:13PM -0500, Rodent of Unusual Size
wrote:
> > credit where it is deserved.  I do *not* think we owe the user
> > community a project plan and schedule of deliverables.
> 
> I think we owe it to the other developers to have a project
> plan and a schedule of deliverables.  -- justin

I do that at my day job.  I do the Open Source work to get away from the
annoying parts of programming that my day job delivers.  Please don't
force that stuff on me during my relaxing time.

Ryan

Re: OT: whither are we going?

[Justin Erenkrantz <je...@ebuilt.com>]

On Fri, Mar 08, 2002 at 02:47:13PM -0500, Rodent of Unusual Size wrote:
> credit where it is deserved.  I do *not* think we owe the user
> community a project plan and schedule of deliverables.

I think we owe it to the other developers to have a project
plan and a schedule of deliverables.  -- justin

Re: OT: whither are we going?

[Rodent of Unusual Size <Ke...@Golux.Com>]

Bill Stoddard wrote:
> 
> And FWIW, I personally feel some responsbility to the Apache
> user community.

So do I, of a sort; I feel gratitude for the feedback and
suggestions toward improvement of the package.  For me, though,
it does *not* extend to a feeling of commitment to deliver
anything according to random feature requests or timelines.
IMHO, if we owe the userbase anything, it's that gratitude, and
credit where it is deserved.  I do *not* think we owe the user
community a project plan and schedule of deliverables.

Perhaps I pitched it too strongly, but the remark that
not making that commitment to the user base was a slap in
its collective face got up my nose.
-- 
#ken	P-)}

Ken Coar, Sanagendamgagwedweinini  http://Golux.Com/coar/
Author, developer, opinionist      http://Apache-Server.Com/

"Millennium hand and shrimp!"